I seem to have poked a hornets' nest here.

[trof]

The OP:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2929570&mesg_id=2929570

First, it was not my intention to alienate or defame any of my fellow DUers. Or anyone else, for that matter.

It was also not my aim to piss anyone off, but it sure looks like I did.
I'm reading a book by the late Col. David Hackworth. He was a very interesting man. I would go so far as to call him a patriot and true professional's professional soldier in every good sense of the term.

I did some research on him online and came across what he had to say about John McCain's 'war hero' status during the 2000 campaign.
It seemed to me that Hackworth had the street creds to know what he was talking about when it came to things military.
And so I posted it here.
I had no idea that it would stir the vitriol that it did.
All of a sudden the messenger was under attack from all sides.

So, what is a hero?
Noun 1. Hero - a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength; "RAF pilots were the heroes of the Battle of Britain."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hero
Possibly by that definition, or part of it, McCain is a hero.
I don't know.

I was a fighter pilot too, although I never saw combat.
I do know that for me it took quite a bit of courage to make that first take-off in a single engine, single seat jet fighter, with no instructor sitting beside me.
I could only remember that I'd been briefed, over and over, "If you have a flameout after liftoff, but before you reach 1000', you're a dead man. You don't have a rocket seat with zero-zero capability*. You're sitting on a a ballistic charge, so get to at least 1000' as soon as you possibly can."

You can bet that was uppermost in my mind on every takeoff until we finally got our F-84s retrofitted with rocket seats.

Did that make me a hero?
No, not in my mind.
It meant I'd overcome a personal battle with fear, or maybe I was just one crazy sonofabitch back then. Maybe some of both. We all thought we were bulletproof anyway.

And I'll never forget my first air refueling.
Scared shitless.
But I did it.
And then my first night refueling.
And my first night refueling dodging thunderstorms.

Did any of that make me a hero.
No, I don't think so.
A lot of my buddies were doing the same thing.

Now McCain had more personal fears to contend with than I did. He did all his flying off (and on!) a tiny boat. That scares me to death. I don't know if I could do it.

And he flew places where people did not want him to fly. And so they were trying to kill him.
And that never happened to me either.

But does it make him a hero?
Maybe it's a matter of degree.
If there are a lot of people doing the same thing you are, are you all heroes?
Or do you have to do something that really rises above what all your buddies are doing too?

A good friend of mine, a WW II fighter pilot, said "The ones who didn't come back are the heroes. They gave all."
And I can't argue with that.
Peace

*zero-zero capability: With a ballistic ejection seat you're basically sitting on top of a gunpowder keg which blows you clear of the aircraft when ingited. In order for your parachute to deploy and slow you down enough for a (relatively) safe landing you needed 100 knots speed and about 1000' altitude. With the later rocket seats you were more gradually blasted aloft. The zero-zero meant you could literally punch out of an aircraft sitting perfectly still on the ramp and reasonably expect to survive.

[BOSSHOG]

1. No alienation here my Friend

If Hackworth is the one I recall (did he not die recently?) I believe it is fair for me to cast aspersions at him relative to my Admiral Boorda's suicide in May 1996, relative to the flap about a device he wore on his uniform. I may be confusing Hackworth with someone else.

And Trof, relative to one being a hero it does not matter what is in that persons mind. I think you are a hero and I don't care what you think about that.

[trof]

19. Yeah, he died last year, I think.

You'd probably enjoy 'Steel My Soldiers' Hearts' if you haven't already read it.
Don't know if he was the guy who took on Boorda.

The grunts in the battalion he took over hated him so much at first they even put a bounty on him. I think it got upwards of $3500 cash to any guy who would frag him.
Later they came to love him.
By teaching them how to soldier and fight, he saved a lot of them who would have otherwise come home in body bags.
I think to a degree he was in the same mold as George Patton.
"It's not your job to die for your country.
It's your job to make those other bastards die for theirs."

I don't know who is behind Viet Nam Veterans Against McCain
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_aboutvvajm.htm
whether they're legit or not.
They're sure pissed off at him.
That's where I found the Hackworth quote.

[leftofcool]

2. I like hack

He was and will always be a soldier's soldier. But Hack's feelings about McCain are largely derived from the fact that they were on opposite sides of the political fence. Truthfully, all vets are heros, no matter the war, the skin color, or length of service, just for the very fact that they did serve.

Left of Cool

[atreides1]

3. Not all Vets Are Heros

All Vets who serve honorably are heros!

With one exception Sergeant Kevin Benderman, he's a hero, because to do what he did took courage. He sacrificed everything for his beliefs, was court martialed and received a dishonorable discharge.

[leftofcool]

4. I stand corrected

You are right. There are those who have not served honorably.

Left of Cool

[cornermouse]

5. Wait a minute here.

It's all right to viciously attack Hillary and even Chelsea on DU but not all right to attack McCain? Think about this for a minute...

[leftofcool]

7. Attacking on policy and or morals, yes.......

but to attack his honorable military service to our country, absolutely not!

Left of Cool

[cornermouse]

12. You may or may not be old enough to remember, but

there has been a lot of debate over the years as to how honorable his military service actually was especially back then.

[leftofcool]

17. I am in my 60's

I saw him when he came home. And don't allow yourself to believe all the lies told by Bush about his service.

Left of Cool

[cornermouse]

24. And I can remember the angry military people, because they

were who was loudest, about the fact that he got in front of a camera and said what the North Vietnamese told him to say and I can also remember the whispers. Times have changed but the way McCain has caved after the personal lies Bush spread about him in South or North Carolina tells me something and it isn't a pretty.

[yardwork]

8. Thank you for pointing out this great irony.

Personally, I don't like unfair attacks on anyone. I don't think that the OP counts as an unfair attack on McCain - if he's going to run on his war hero status, he should expect it to be examined.

Why some people think it is ok to viciously attack our own Democratic candidates - not to mention their families - is just totally beyond me.

[leftofcool]

14. He's running on his war hero status?

That's odd, I thought he was running on his military experience and knowledge of foreign affairs. His military record is available to the public. Anyone can scrutinize it at any time and once you have looked at it, then if you still feel you should attack him on his service to the country, feel free.

Left of Cool

[yardwork]

21. Did you even read my post?

[leftofcool]

23. Yes

You said McCain was running on his "war hero" status and that it should be examined. Please examine it. And if it is okay with you to attack him on that basis, please do so. I prefer to attack him on policies which are what he is really running on.

Left of Cool

[yardwork]

28. Where did I say anything about supporting attacks on people?

I could have sworn I said just the opposite.

I stand by my statement that McCain is running on his war hero status and therefore it is open to examination. If you consider that an attack, you're about to get your ears pinned back when you hear what the Republicans have to say about our Democratic candidate.

[leftofcool]

30. Okay

Then if you believe he is running on his war hero status and that it should be examined, will you examine his military record and get back to us on your opinion of it. See I personally think he is running on bad policies and those are the things I want to focus on so when I do attack him, I attack his issues, not his service to the country.

Left of Cool

[atreides1]

10. No need to think about it. It isn't right

Personally I feel that McCain the War Hero is a myth, but to quote a movie line "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

And unfortunately I think in McCain's case it's the legend that sanctifies him, I guess we'll never really know the facts will we, because to many here are not willing to look beyond the legend to see the facts.

[leftofcool]

18. A myth?

5 years in a POW camp is a myth? Can we all assume that if Senator Obama had been in a POW camp where he was tortured for 5 years that it would be okay to make fun of his service to the country, to call it a myth?

Left of Cool

[nashville_brook]

53. the circularity of this logic is dizzying. wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

[treestar]

6. McBush should not be allowed any credit as a "war hero" after

What the repukes did to Kerry. All of his claims should be questioned as not proven, even. That's what the repukes deserve.

Though I believe the voters are sick enough of war that it may not be a plus for him.

[leftofcool]

9. Bush was never in a war

and it is quite doubtful that he even completed service to the Guard.

Left of Cool

[TBUSA]

11. Thank you for your service.

Thank you as well for remembering a true hero and patriot in Col. Hackworth.

[blondeatlast]

13. I disagreed with what you said, but you are definitely still one of the good guys.

I just think using the Hackworth allegations (true or not) is 400 miles of very bad road...

[catnhatnh]

15. Hey, he was the only pilot in the Vietnam War....

that both sides used a missile on....gotta mean something.

[Pogue.Mahone]

22. hahahahahaha

fuuunneee!!! :D :D :D

[FlyingSquirrel]

16. My .02

I think this kind of thing is repugnant regardless of who it's directed at... the way to tell is, put yourself in the place of his friends and relatives. If someone you knew got shot down in Vietnam and was subjected to torture, and awarded medals for it, how would you feel about their medals etc. being questioned because it had happened before they spent much time in a combat situation?

I thought it was despicable against Kerry and so I have to be fair and say the same about McCain. An eye for an eye makes the world blind. Also this could easily backfire. Finally, you wanna be like Karl Rove? Screw that, we shouldn't be wasting our time attacking McCain on this kind of thing - plenty of REAL things to attack him on.

[Pogue.Mahone]

20. I think...

mccain's heroism extended from the fact that he kept the faith while a pow. when he was offered early release, he said no, there were others before him. he fought back against his captors. he gave aid and comfort to his fellow prisoners. he followed the code of conduct.

he has never called himself a hero. whatever else he is, i give him that.

[leftofcool]

25. You are absolutely right

His claim is that he did what any soldier would do because he believed that his fellow soldiers would have done the same for him.

Left of Cool

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

26. two points: first, he endured for his country. that ought to count. second: going....

after his war-hero status will bring the kind of blowback that turns people who have no reason to vote for McCain away from the side they perceive is smearing him.

The Right'll never sit back and take it. Not like Kerry's campaign did.

And not only will it be ineffective and counterproductive, it's not even needed. O has the policies, philosophy, and approach, and the charisma gap is massive here--unless it looks like he's phony. He'll never seem above playing dirty if anybody goes after McCain for caving under torture.

[cornermouse]

29. Why stop there.

:sarcasm: :grr: :nuke:

This is just too much to take. I have to get away from here for a while.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

32. no, no, attack away. but how about in a way that'll actually help.

[Pogue.Mahone]

33. Aw, man...

no. respecting his service is not voting for him! listen to obama, he has no problem respecting AND THANKING mccain for his service but it doesn't stop him from going after his policies & beliefs hammer & tong!

[nashville_brook]

27. democracy is inhospitable to sacred cows. that's a good thing imo.

that other thread surprises me. the "mods! lock this!" stuff is chilling. are adding McCain's vet status to the other liberally verboten subjects (israel, 9/11)?

people who cry "blasphemer" freak me out. that's not what i come to DU for.

:patriot:

_________________


as to your question about the nature of heroism... what a great subject! i'm going to think about it for a minute or two...

[blondeatlast]

41. Gotta agree with you about the "Lock this" sentiment. I posted that I didn't think

we should go ther for very practical and ethical reasons, but the call to not discuss it was way too Bushlike for my comfort.

[Breeze54]

31. I skimmed that other post and quite frankly

I don't give a shit about medals.

Anyone sent to a war, whether drafted, stop-lossed or a willing volunteer has a lot of guts and for that, they're hero's to me. I'm not talking about whether or not it was a legal war or a 'police action' or whatever it was that put them there but I truthfully don't know if I'd have the guts to go. Maybe when I was younger but I definitely wouldn't have wanted to be sitting on a fucking powder keg with a parachute strapped to my back or walking through a jungle where you can't see the snipers or driving down a road where you don't know if you'll be blown up at any second. All those who serve honorably are hero's to me.

[leftofcool]

34. Absolutely

And this is something the Bush administration just sucks on. They killed Max Cleland on his military service, they swift boated Kerry, they even did it to Mccain who is one of their own. I say, Democrats are far above this. We don't have to stoop to their level.

Laft of Cool

[trof]

35. But suppose you didn't have a choice about going or not.

Back then, we didn't.
The choice was combat or calaboose.
That thing called The Draft.
'Selective Service'
If you were a male age 18 or over, you were on the list.
A lot of kids were sent to Viet Nam who wanted no part of it.

[Breeze54]

36. Didn't you read my reply?

:shrug:

[trof]

44. Yeah, but I guess we'd disagree on the definition.

Conscripts can rise to hero status just as well as volunteers.
To me, it takes a bit more to volunteer for something dangerous in the first place than it does to be put there against your will.

But just being present doesn't make you a hero by my definition.
If there had been no draft, I probably wouldn't have wound up in a fighter squadron.

Oh I volunteered. But maybe only because I was faced with the draft if I didn't.
I guess I'll never know for sure.
And back then we had no combat troops in Viet Nam.
For me, it was a choice of being a grunt in a green uniform, humping an M-1 and a 50 pound pack and being PAID to learn to fly along with being a commissioned officer.
And absolutely ZERO humping.
Believe me, every day in every way, officers have it better.

And you're allowed to have anyone you want as a hero.
It's a free (sorta) country.
;-)

[Breeze54]

46. You really think it's all in the "how"?

"it takes a bit more to volunteer for something dangerous in the first place

than it does to be put there against your will."

You think because someone didn't 'volunteer' they are a lesser hero?

Bite ME..... HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You seem have an addled brain and are fixated on volunteering as being the benchmark.

Get spirituality. It appears to me you are starving.

[trof]

51. Oh dear. "BITE ME HARD!!!!!!!!!!!"? Life is too short for this.

I guess you're done.
Have a nice life.
So long.
:hi:

[brook]

37. My, my...

quite a lot of hubris in the air today, eh? <p>
I know McCain's an actual, real, genuine hero because he said so. And he always tells the truth.<p>
Furthermore, I believe John's a Republican because he believes in justice, health care and good jobs for all.
Especially if you have a K Street address.<p>
OTOH, my half dozen WWII Marine uncles all got purple hearts for nicking themselves on the Colonel's bottle opener. They thought a 'hero' was a sandwich.<p>
I'm not attacking McCain but I'll be damned if I polish his halo either.

[DemoTex]

38. First, I would have to know the truth behind WHY McCain got shot down.

Was McCain fragged to a high-value Hanoi target that was worth his life to hit? If so, then he was a hero.

Was McCain hot-dogging? Was there a lapse in mission discipline on his part? Was McCain complacent (ie, low and slow)? Did McCain take high and inappropriate risks against low-value targets in a dense threat environment? If so, he is a goat.

My guess is that his situation lies somewhere these two extremes. If that is the case, he has the benefit of the doubt on the issue with me.

I had a couple of friends shot down over Laos chasing a very low-value target inside a known SAM arc. The AB-Triple-C (Airborne Battlefield Command and Control Center), Moonbeam, called them on it, but they pressed on anyway. The SAM blew their shit away. They were certainly no heroes, but that did not diminish my loss and anguish. Nor did they have the opportunity to redeem their extreme lapse in mission discipline by heroic behavior in the Hanoi Hilton.

[catnhatnh]

39. Well, I screwed the pooch on my first reply here....

and tossed off a "funny"....Then I read the OP.And I find the subject has turned deadly serious....So what I really think:You posit that the term "hero" is overused and misapplied and too important to surrender so easily to a man who is the wrong man to become President. And if so I agree.Let's for a minute look at just who heros are and aren't...

By the common consent all "emergency responders" are heros, yet this is obviously not true.I worked three years as an EMT and ambulance driver and my sole CPR "save" was an 80 year old cancer patient who died in the hospital 5 days later.My brother was a career firefighter for over 25 years but retired with no "valor" medals",I figure because the opportunity never presented itself.Got a cousin or two who are cops and I know of no special commendations there either.You can work a year or two,or a career, or a lifetime,but unless you perform an extrordinary act you are not a "hero"-just a good guy.

You quoted Col Hackworth who was one of the ultimate good guys AND a hero, and I read his About Face...he was a warrior and a hero and so disgusted by the political actions of his country that he expatriated himself to Australia where he died.If HE didn't earn the right to comment on McCain then no one has.And remember-he didn't denigrate McCain-he merely pointed out the perversion of the medal process that lifted McCain above earlier undisputed benchmarks for "heroism".I believe John McCain performed well during the war and recognize his suffering in captivity-Hackworth does the same.The arguement is that "hero" requires overt acts and impartial observers and that neither existed in the awarding of the bulk of his medals.

We take and use "hero" too lightly these days.Someone who stands up for the homeless is a hero.Those who educate children in the ghetto are heroes.Those who protect the environment are heroes.It is ALL bullshit.If G.W.Bush got ANYTHING right it was bringing the guy who jumped into the subway to save someone he didn't know to the State of the Union speech-THAT is a hero....real heros jump into the Potomac and drag out victims of airplane crashes....they run into burning buildings without the training or protective gear-they face a life or death moment and lay their life against it at poor odds and for little gain.The rest are just good guys and God Bless them because they alone uplift the rest of us.

John McCain was a good guy and for that I pay him homage,but he is also unworthy to be president for his beliefs.And he is no hero...

[trof]

40. I liked your first post and this one too.

I think you understand what Hackworth was saying very well.
This is not a 'swiftboating' by any means.
That's a whole different approach.
And straight out of the Rove playbook.

And it's not an 'attack' on McCain's military record.
It is one man who had 'been there, done that' explaining how it's supposed to work.

Hackworth was particularly disgusted with his commanding general and the general's toady XO (executive officer, i.e. PR hack) and the shitty job they were doing and the bucketload of medals they were 'awarded' (pretty much awarded to each other by themselves).
While sleeping in their air conditioned trailers, having their drinks and hot dinners, and crapping in their own private porta-potties.

I'm very familiar with the boilerplate he talks about in commendation citations. I've written a few myself.
And almost always in there somewhere is the hackneyed but standard "...and reflected high credit upon himself and his unit."
Bet on it.

[catnhatnh]

49. Yep....

I'm gonna write something tonight about heroism and approaching it and the difference....But I get where you come from and the difference between actions,intentions and outcomes.

[trof]

52. I think you say it better than I do.

simpatico

[mulsh]

42. McCain and his people are using War Hero as a marketing tool

He and his war experiences are fair game as far as I'm concerned. None of my "war hero" relatives even like to talk about their experiences in battle. None of them have used their misfortune to any political or financial advantage. Most of them packed their medals away and tried not to think about them.

By the way thanks for the research on McCain's "War Hero" background.

[fishnfla]

43. What does Hackworth know about the Hanoi Hilton?

What does any American know?

I only know what my collegue,Dr Hal Kushner does, and mostly does not, talk about. So I just shut up and listen, and give them the benefit of the doubt. To say that anyone has "street cred" or "been there, done that" on this issue is bullshit.

[trof]

45. Why is 'bullshit' invoked so much here?

I could be really snarky and say that Hackworth was smart enough not to get captured.
And if he had been, he would have exhausted his entire being trying to escape and fomenting insurrection amongst his fellow POWs, causing his captors to spend precious personnel and resources where he was instead of where the battles were.

McCain tells inspiring stories about what others did while he was incarcerated. The guy who made the American flag.
You've read it, I'm sure. He talks about it a lot.

But I digress.
That's the kind of guy Hackworth was.
He'd try to fuck the VC up any way he could.
But that would be supposition on my part.
And bullshit.

The issue I posted about had nothing to do with being a POW. And I think Hackworth's comments were hearsay. But again, I don't know. I do know that a google of 'McCain POW' will bring websites that call him a traitor.

The street cred I refer to is his explanation of the medals 'game' in Viet Nam.
He was vehement and passionate about it.
He said it cheapened the military decorations that soldiers had legitimately earned, and I agree.

Many in Viet Nam earned their decorations with feats of incredible bravery. Stark raving mad, in some cases.

And many REMFs*, or those with friends who were REMFs, got them just for showing up.

*REMF - Rear Echelon MotherFucker. Those in the rear, not in actual combat. Generally higher ranking officers and their toadys.

I would draw a parallel in our public school system.
What is a high school diploma 'worth' if everyone gets one, whether they make the grades to graduate or not? What if they get one just for 'being there'?
And that's why it's come to 'graduation exams' in many of our high schools.

[GoneOffShore]

47. Thanks for posting this and the other thread.

It's made the managing of my Ignore list a lot easier. And I'm not talking about you.

Back in the 60's you volunteered or got drafted or found a way to avoid serving. It was a job. I'm sorry but that war was wrong and was never about "protecting our freedom's". It was about protecting investment the same as the present war.

It's a job. You do it or you don't. The same way that being a ditch digger is a job. The mystique of the warrior is just a myth in my book. I attach far more honor to being a teacher, a doctor or a farmer than to being a warrior. Yes you can get killed. But I still remember the words of Edgar Lee Masters in Spoon River Anthology:

KNOWLT HOHEIMER

I was the first fruits of the battle of Missionary Ridge.
When I felt the bullet enter my heart
I wished I had stayed at home and gone to jail
For stealing the hogs of Curl Trenary,
Instead of running away and joining the army.
Rather a thousand times the county jail
Than to lie under this marble figure with wings,
And the granite pedestal
Bearing the words, "Pro Patria."
What do they mean, anyway?

[DemoTex]

48. "Pro Patria."

Wilfred Owen's "old Lie": Dulce et Decorum est, Pro patria mori.

[GoneOffShore]

50. Masters came to mind first

But Owen's was an even finer poet - And got the whole thing correct. The Old Lie -

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

8 October 1917 - March, 1918