My Republican Friend Who Owns A Gun & Her Opinion On Purchasing & Owning A Firearm

[orleans]

my friend & i were talking about the niu shootings

she said people shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun if they are taking drugs that can cause psychotic reactions (such as prozac, paxil, ritalin, and others).

she said there should be a database for firearms where a doctor can "ding" the database that would red flag a potential buyer (the same way a convicted felon is tagged).

i asked what about people who have schizophrenia? "same thing. they should not be allowed to buy or own guns."

"but isn't that discriminatory? doesn't everyone have the right to own a gun," i asked.

"no. you can't own a gun if you're a convicted felon and this is along the same line. it is for the public safety."

"there are laws that that say if you have been hospitalized within the past five years for mental illness you can't buy a gun."

"you can't get a driver's license if you're blind. this is the same idea. it's for the safety of the public."


--------

just saw an interview on cnn with kazmierczak's girlfriend. she said the drug he had stopped taking was prozac. (however cnn probably doesn't want to offend eli-lilly by mentioning it by name. how nice of them.)
"Kazmierczak had been seeing a psychiatrist on a monthly basis, Baty said, and was taking an anti-depressant. But he had stopped taking the medication three weeks ago, "because it made him feel like a zombie," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/17/shooter.girlfriend/index.html#cnnSTCText

[dkf]

1. People with schizophrenia should definitely not buy guns.

Bad bad idea.

[Winterblues]

33. But how can they defend themselves?

Or aren't ill people allowed to do that?

[ThomWV]

44. Because of their sickness we, society, will tuck them under our arms and protect them

Because that is what political societys do. However we also allow the healthy individual, those who can, to protect himself. It could not be simpler - help the weak and let the strong take care of themselves.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Prozac made him feel like a zombie?

He must have had at least a few other issues. LOL

[scarletwoman]

4. Not necessarily. Different people have different reactions to anti-depressants, including

suicidal urges. And coming off them can really mess people up as well, I've seen it in my own family.

sw

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Prozac is one of the milder anti-depressants

[scarletwoman]

12. Mild has nothing to do with it. These drugs fuck certain people up.

Eric Harris (Columbine), Kip Kinkel (parent killer and school shooter), Jeff Weise (Red Lake school shooter), Robert Hawkins (Omaha mall shooter) were all either on Prozac (or in Harris' case, Luvox, a similar drug) or had been.

SSRIs DO have side effects, and in some people these side effects are extreme.

sw

[Warpy]

9. Right, and stopping any SSRI suddenly is very dangerous

Mood swings and rages are part of it. It also plays hell with your cardiovascular system (I could always tell when I'd forgotten to take mine because a few hours later I'd get dizzy and check my BP and it would be 80/40). They have to be tapered off, and the longer you've been on them, the slower the taper has to be.

Either nobody told him that or he thought he knew better. The result was tragic.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

38. I've seen that firsthand taking anti-depressants myself

I took a trip and forgot my medication. I went two days before I could get a refill approved through a pharmacy in the town I was visiting. Those two days were some of the worst I've ever felt in my life. The rage was incredible, and I'm generally a very docile person. My wife was so scared because I sat in the hotel room clenching and unclenching my fists trying to dissipate some of the extreme feelings I was having.

You're right - in this case somebody fucked up by not making sure that he tapered off the drug. Those with depression should always have a strong support group, even if it's only a single person, to monitor their progression through the disease and the healing. I'm not sure I'd be alive today if it wasn't for my wife and my son (11 years old).

[krispos42]

15. just an idle question...

Are the pharmaceuticals in question, Prozac and such, the kind of drug that most likely could be replaced by THC if hemp were legalized?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

37. I took Prozac for a while for chronic panic disorder

It didn't work as well as I'd hoped, and I moved onto a better drug. My doctor also told me that sometimes smoking marijuana helps those with depression/anxiety/panic disorders. I tried it, and it made me feel paranoid. But he did recommend that if I wasn't against it, that it was something that might work short term.

Prozac and other drugs like it are meant to treat these problems by overcoming a chemical imbalance that causes a lot of the issues. I don't see smoking weed as something that is likely to work that way. The best remedy: exercise and a healthy diet. They've worked far better than any drug I took, but the prescription drugs helped me get to a point where I actually had the energy and wherewithal to exercise and focus on my health.

[krispos42]

41. Okay, thanks

I know there are some high-profit drugs that don't work as well as THC, and if hemp was legalized Big Pharma would stand to lose money. I was wondering if some of these were of that class, that's all.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

42. I think some research into THC specifically and marijuana in general

might yield some surprising results. For pain, there are few over the counter pain meds that can do what a little mary jane can. Unfortunately, very few pharma companies or educational institutions are willing to do the research to find out how it could actually benefit patients. The "war" on drugs has placed marijuana in the same class as heroin and methamphetamines, and there is a stigma surrounding it that no amount of anecdotal evidence can overturn. It will take a concerted effort to get past the rhetoric and force folks to look at the drug rationally.

Some points to be made (especially when talking to conservatives):

* Our prisons are filled with non-violent marijuana offenders. Even fiscal conservatives (which I consider myself) can see that spending 30K - 40K per year for these non-violent offenders is insane when they could be out working and be productive members of society.
* Both tobacco and alcohol have much more devastating effects than marijuana. Were marijuana to be legalized, the government could regulate it and make a boatload of money. Again, this appeals to fiscal conservatives.
* Non-medical uses of marijuana products (namely hemp) provide an easy to plant and maintain crop that is profitable for even the small time farmer. This is an issue that appeals to both fiscal conservatives and the red state agriculture conservatives.
* The amount of money that could be made from the taxing of marijuana could pay for treatment facilities for the drugs that do real harm - heroin, cocaine, methamphetamines, etc. This has a cascading effect when you consider the number of first time offenders we could keep out of prison, saving ourselves billions of dollars a year.
* Nowhere in the bible does it prohibit the use of marijuana (use this against the religious conservatives that have some nebulous idea, probably propagated by their minister/priest/etc., that the bible restricts marijuana use)

[krispos42]

43. I've said a few times...

that while marijuana may be a "gateway" drug (along with all the pharmaceuticals for kids), getting busted for pot is a "gateway" bust, desensitizing people to respect for the law and making them not fear the police, arrest, or a trial, or even jail time.

[yardwork]

26. Some people have very bad reactions to prozac.

[villager]

3. holy cow! Your Repubbie friend is more sane than 90% of the people in the "guns" forum

where the prevailing attitude is: "Guns all around! for everyone! Yee-haw!"

[1620rock]

7. It's the nuts NOT on meds with guns that we need to worry about.

[orleans]

8. i don't really go in that forum because i don't like guns

but i thought it was nice that my friend and i could agree on this

[beevul]

16. Nothing like mistruths to support your position.

"Your Repubbie friend is more sane than 90% of the people in the "guns" forum where the prevailing attitude is: "Guns all around! for everyone! Yee-haw!"

That would be a complete untruth, and you know it.

[villager]

17. Like I said -- saner than 90% of the "guns" forum!

n/t

[Dimensio0]

34. Who has expressed such an attitude?

Please provide specific references.

[villager]

35. Try posting said Republican friend's common-sense suggestion in the gun forum

And just see what response you get...

[Dimensio0]

36. You have not answered my question (n/t).

[villager]

40. oh, if you'd do it, instead of sniping at me, I think I have.

n/t

[treestar]

6. Weird thought but don't schizophrenics have a right to defend themselves?

The meme here gets backwards. When people want to ban guns, they want to keep them out of the hands of people who would end up using them against other people offensively. Yet the argument always becomes about the right to have one to defend oneself. Yet one rarely finds that people having guns results in a successful self defense. There are more stories about someone using them to shoot up a restaurant or a classroom. That's the problem. It's not the lack of self defense but the opportunity for offense.

[orleans]

10. she doesn't want to ban guns.

[dkf]

11. I would think a paranoid schizophrenic would definitely want to buy a gun

to protect themselves. Problem is their perception of what is out to get them is completely screwed.

[Demagitator]

13. Psychotherapy is....

simply a modern form of witch hunting; but a person is not filled with evil spirits -- now -- they have crazy ideas.

Mental illness -- is a myth; it is healthy for the mind to react in a distressed manner when the body is sick. It is simply impossible to fix the mind with a magical psych pill. They perhaps may deal with the symptoms of the mind, but like most medications for the body, they only deal with stopping the symptoms -- but not the illness, or the actual "dis-ease" of the person.

Read the psychiatrist Thomas Szasz.

_______________________________________________________________________

Thomas Szasz
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Szasz" redirects here. For the comic book character, see Question (comics).

Thomas Stephen Szasz (pronounced /sas/; born April 15, 1920 in Budapest, Hungary) is a psychiatrist and academic. He is Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry at the State University of New York Health Science Center in Syracuse, New York. He is a prominent figure in the antipsychiatry movement, a well-known social critic of the moral and scientific foundations of psychiatry, and of the social control aims of medicine in modern society, as well as of scientism. He is well known for his books, The Myth of Mental Illness (1960) and The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement which set out some of the arguments with which he is most associated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz

[orleans]

18. someone was telling me that their friend was

on anti-depressants due to their mother's death. they said to their friend: "it's been six years. i don't mean to be cold but how are you doing coping with this? you've got to learn how to cope with it."

[kineneb]

21. read up on the "kindling effect"

Such a stressor can kindle mood disorders in what seemed to be mentally healthy people. Some people do not bounce back well from loss. Perhaps that person was one of the less resilient.

[Demagitator]

22. Good point...

You actually raise a point I have been dealing with personally, and struggling with.

My mother called me (a few weeks ago) and told me that they tested her blood and cancer was found in it.... and that I should prepare to move from my house to hers, in the event that she dies.

This was a huge problem, with me coping with this; with being around a person that is struggling with what may be a very serous sickness.... and she would frequently be very argumentative with me... to the point where I finally had to decide to psychologically let her go from my mind, and go on with my life, by deciding to not communicate her ever again.

She used to be a Kennedy Democrat, -- but that all changed, her and her -- friends were being very bigoted referring to anyone from Asia as rag head terrorists.

I have a degree in Asian Studies; and I said do you also consider people from India terrorists as well? Yes or no, simply because they wear something in their hair for cultural reasons.

I explained that Indian Hindus are very different then the Islamic people, you may be referring to as being terrorists.

Well -- anyway to get to the point; if I had not experienced the emotional pain of being hurt by this, and her insensitivity to me; and, if I was on a medication -- if or when she does dies, I would not of been able to cope -- because I would of not felt the pain, that I have naturally struggled to stop.

The way I have coped with it; is I will never talk to her again; nor will I probably even go to here funeral, because I know that it is simply to painful for me, the rest of my family is like this in that it is basically a dysfunctional family.

But, as each day passes -- I become less and less depressed -- because I have struggled with this, and coped with it as best I can.

[orleans]

24. you know, i don't know you, i don't know your mother or your

situation, or hers. i have no clue about the type of relationship you have with her, how old she is or how old you are.

and i know we all cope with things in different ways.

and we all grieve in different ways.

and i hate to hijack my own thread by going off topic here, but...

i have to tell you that, it seems to me, your decision not to talk to your mother again is far from coping with anything. it seems more like you are avoiding the situation rather than coping/dealing with it. and to not attend your own mother's funeral because it is too painful? that is absolute avoidance of the situation, in my opinion.

you know, once she is gone there is no going back. maybe now is the time to talk to her and try to resolve differences and issues that have bothered you. you don't like her friends or the influence they have had on her--that's okay. you don't have to like her friends. but to not talk to her--especially now when maybe she really needs you--is pretty cold.

and if you cut her off, and you lose her--how do you forgive yourself for not even trying to work things out before it was too late?

avoidance therapy (which is what it sounds like) isn't always the best solution. sometimes talking to someone and explaining how you feel makes a world of difference--and paves the way for wrongs to be righted, and hearts to mend.

like i said--i don't know you at all. but i hope you reconsider things and make an effort.

"If not now, when
If not today then
What about tomorrow
What happens tomorrow"
--melissa etheridge

[Demagitator]

25. Thanks...

I appreciate your concern; but I have for the past two years attempted to work it out, but her hostility keeps getting worse toward me. Why should I invest my time, and energy in a person that probably (subconsciously) hates me?

My parents were divorced when I was around a year old; so I became the son and the new husband for her in her mind.... but I do not want to be a husband to her... but a son.

And, if she is very sick; she does not need to be in any stress; by being around me. The reason why I More then likely won't go to her funeral is because -- she projects her hostility toward me with her brother, and I'm sure other family members whom have no reservation in being openly hostile to me -- to the point of yelling at me on the phone, when I call, making insensitive remarks, then hanging up the phone.

As a pacifist, I'm trained to avoid conflicts, and if I keep trying to work it out; and if we have irreconcilable differences, then I'm obviously going down the wrong path.

It was not an easy thing for me, but it is my way of coping. Obviously it appears to be cold; which it is -- which made the pain -- for me even greater, and very depressing, but I had to make this decision or I would of been a miserably depressed person, day to day and in the future. Now the depression is basically gone, I can smile a bit in my life, when I wake up in the morning.

It more then likely is because of her being "brainwashed" by becoming a Bush Republican voter; I simply just became a talking point for her "to sell" with her Republican community (family values and all).

And having an Archie Bunker mother, that treated me like a dog, (as well as treating the citizens of Asia) -- is if irreconcilable, something I must walk away from, and let go for my psychological health.

[BlackVelvet04]

29. My best friend's mother just died of cancer.....

the mother and my friend never got along...their relationship was full of anger and disrespect. When the mother got sick my friend moved in to help take care of her. One day my friend complained to her Buddhist mentor that her mother was a bitch...the mentor replied "she may be a bitch, but she's YOUR bitch."

That changed my friend's life. She took great care of her mother and over time they became friends, accepted their differences and loved each other. My friend wouldn't exchange that for anything in the word.

I'm not saying you have to move in with your mother or anything but she IS your mother and when she is gone, she is gone and there is NO chance of a reconciliation.

[Demagitator]

30. I wish I could, but that won't work for me....

I had to work this out myself.

__________________________________________________________

Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others.

Buddha

[kineneb]

20. what a load of garbage

I have to take the meds or I might wind up like great-grandma: dead from suicide. I tried to live without them, and it was not a nice experience.
The "disease" is an imbalance in the brain chemistry. And therapy does help.

Dr. Szasz can take long walk off short pier.

[Demagitator]

23. If it works for you, so be it....

I just know for me; my body and mind could never deal with medications, psych or even medical unless it was a emergency -- like in the emergency room or something. I generally get sick from any medication doctors give me... perhaps there is a chemical imbalance going on because I have many allergies.

And, I have noticed that in my life; that the mind, body and spirit that God has given me cures me the best, with the help of a good multivitamin, and a good vegetarian diet, and perhaps some herbs, like Ginger are all I need.

[Bright Eyes]

39. "Mental illness -- is a myth"

Yeah, those Schizophrenics are just acting...:eyes:

[krispos42]

14. Successful self-defense fairly common

But since only about one incident in 6,000 results in a justifiable homicide they don't usually make the news.

[Enthusiast]

19. No matter the nominee's position on firearms

It makes no difference what position the Democratic Nominee, with regard to firearms, takes. The Democrat will be attacked by the NRA for being "anti gun". But, both Clinton and Obama should consider their words wisely. There are many millions of us not so radical gun owners out there that represent potential votes.

[Ganja Ninja]

27. The laws are already on the books to prevent people who are

diagnosed with mental illness from purchasing firearms. When you buy one you have to fill out a form and one of the questions on it specifically deals with this. The problem is there is no system in place for reporting these people so they don't show up on a background check.

[derby378]

28. Since when does Ritalin make people "psychotic?"

I suggest that your Republican friend bone up on her medication knowledge before she gets led further astray by alarmists. Legitimate doses of Ritalin do not make one "psychotic."

[orleans]

31. i was googling and i found that about ritalin. i didn't know that either

and had never heard that before.

[jmg257]

32. I have no problem with people having a right suspended via due process. Then we know

that decision wasn't handed out arbitrarily. Otherwise it is VERY much open to abuse, not the least of which from a prejudiced or tyrannical govt/state. The unalienable right to arms is no different.

If a doctor treats someone for mental illness, is the enough proof? I am not sure, but knowing what could be at stake - there could certainly be a procedure set out.


My other concern is that if someone is so dangerous they are barred arms, why are they allowed to be free in society? There are plenty of ways to kill people that don't involve a gun. (see recent meat clever murder)

Anyway, there is more at issue here then "evil" guns.