The Male Privilege Checklist

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.


11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

It should be noted that ALL the items of this list have a factual basis. They are the product of social scientific research, not something invented by a male-hating feminazi. Male privilege (and its flip side, female disadvantage) is real and is a global issue that has multi-layered consequences and is a hindrance to development in peripheral countries and a shame in core ones, (see my earlier post on gender issues on this) .


http://globalsociology.edublogs.org/2008/02/09/the-male-privilege-checklist/

[fenriswolf]

1. well sorry, how many lashes shall I recieve for being male?

and I would like to think i don't contribute or promote stereotypes.

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. I try not to either but it seems some need a reminder

Including myself.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Try harder. n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

54. Thanks Lumberjack ....Dad

Thanks POP, I will.....

I can see you with your Huskavaria chainsaw cutting down the forests of reality.
You convinced me, I'll try harder and live up to your macho handle.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. I'm comfortable... no... happy, with who I am.

I hope that one day, you will be as well.

[aquart]

43. Well, how many can you take without crying like a whiny baby?

We wouldn't want to hurt you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. I'm sure only a few would teach him to take it like a man.

It's good for him. Some day he may want to run for president and he wouldn't want to be seen as a crybaby.

[mmonk]

66. That's kind of what I've been waiting for

though I'm a male that supports the feminist movement. Call it our daily thread.

[donsu]

125. how many do you deserve?

nt

[VotesForWomen]

164. so i suppose you don't think white privilege exists either? we're all on a level playing field... yo

you got everything you have 'by yourself'.... etc., right? hell hath not fury like a white guy who's privilege has been questioned.

[lumberjack_jeff]

291. Why would you "suppose" that? n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

208. You posted a sexist term about Hillary Clinton

in another thread. That wasn't stereotyping?

Edit: A CRUDE term, I should add.

[defendandprotect]

230. I think acknowledgment might be enough . . . is that a stumbling block --- ???

[defendandprotect]

231. Great list --- needs to be understood/acknowledged ---

[Demeter]

2. Thanks For Reminding Me. Now My Depression Is Complete.

Should include under #30 being called too emotional or passionate.

[Egalitariat]

3. Do you mean the "Male Accomplishment Checklist"?

I'll see your flame bait and raise you.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. ?????

[Cerridwen]

22. See the "White Privilege Checklist" and get back to me.

Or do you reserve your snarky comments for the acceptable bigotry of sexism?

I'll see your raise and call you on how this plays in skin-color.

[donsu]

127. misogyny knows no color - world wide

nt

[aquart]

44. Suppression of an entire sex is indeed an "accomplishment."

Now go yell, "YES WE CAN!"

[Marr]

57. What are you implying?

I didn't see any mention of Obama at all in this thread up to this point. Are you equating a lack of support for Hillary Clinton with misogyny?

[undeterred]

4. 47. You can have dancing concubines if you wish.

[malaise]

7. Nice post

Have you ever read The Racial Contract by Charles Mills. It's a great read on the subject.

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. I place the other thread on the white checklist

Both of these threads are documented by sociologist.

'The Racial Contract' was a book I read in Europe a while back
'Philosophy: The Big Questions' is another book he helped coauthor which I would suggest.

[malaise]

67. I read everything he writes

We're good friends. He's middle class Jamaican, the brilliant son of a professor and he was top of his class at a prestigious high school. He grew up in a university community with people of all races. In Jamaica he made all those assumptions, but then he went to America and was shocked beyond belief.

[saltpoint]

8. Let's add ' Male-Only ' Parking.

It follows that we should have preferential treatment in parking lots across the nation.

One hates to be late for appointments.

[dysfunctional press]

10. and do you know what's even better than being just a guy in this world?

being a white guy.

a straight white guy.

it's tough work, but someone's gotta do it...might as well be me.

[Orsino]

109. But best of all is rich.

Rich buys you most or all of the privileges of those other categories.

[Seabiscuit]

134. Alright, already. We can't ALL be rich white straight guys.

Someone's gotta be "it".

:)

[dysfunctional press]

220. i OWN my house(not the bank) and i retired at age 38...but i'm not rich.

just disabled.

but i am straight, white and male, and that makes up for a lot in this country.

[tavalon]

12. Now let me tell you about my privilege as a member of a matriarchal system

I live in a world of paganism and polyamory, which are both matriarchal and matrilinear. I choose my partners, not the other way around. I run the rituals, though I try to be egalitarian in allowing men to play roles within the ritual, but I'm not required nor expected to. Everyone in these subcultures knows it is so and knows that we are trying to move toward the more egalitarian ways, but that the matriarchal bent right now is a balancing thing to make up for the disadvantage woman have outside of our subculture.

I decide how the money is parsed out in our family (by percentages based on our incomes-I make the most so I pay in the most) I choose the sleeping arrangements and the dating schedules between me and my sweeties but that is more a function of who is the busiest (me - try to make a life with three other sweeties and a child work out as non busy. I don't think you can do it). While I try to rule equitably, there is no question that I'm the ruler, the leader of my little tribe and a leader in the community. If you look around in these two subcultures, you will find the occasional male leader, but they are few and far between and they are the ones who have learned to rule with a feminine spin, that or they are soon ridden out of town on a rail.

While we recognize that all of the things you mentioned actually happen out in the big world, they don't happen in my microcosm. That may well be why I have little tolerance for the games out there and why I spend most of my free time with fellow polys and pagans and pervs. These people have been trained under a different set of rules, and not surprisingly, as one who is greatly advantaged by these rules, I prefer them. I hope as the egalitarian begins to seep in, that I will have the grace to share the throne.

(I just asked one of my sweeties, who is sitting on the couch playing a game on the TV, two questions. First, does he feel oppressed by the system our subculture has set up and second, does he feel that I personally participate in that oppression? He said he doesn't feel overall oppressed but rather has had times of dealing with prejudice based on his maleness, which I pointed out is a form of oppression and thankfully, he said he doesn't remember a single time I've personally behaved that way. That's how I see myself as well, so I'm pleased that he answered that way. He isn't one to censor himself for my feelings)

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Nice post sounds like you live in Scandinavia

But, I know you don't. Thanks for sharing.

[tavalon]

15. Nope, but I used to live in Texas,

and boy did we polys stick together tightly there! That's one thing I miss. Here in the Seattle area, there are so many of us and we are so well accepted by the mainstream, that there isn't as much cohesiveness here. There, we always knew every poly had our back and vice versa, here not so much. But I'm working on the group cohesiveness.

[Matariki]

20. hi Tavalon.

i'm in seattle too. chances are we run in some similar circles, or belong to the same clubs...

;-)

[tavalon]

192. Looking at your website, I would say it's a given that we run in the same circles

LOL. Ever been to Art Spawn?

[Chovexani]

30. OMFG! Why have we not talked yet?

:hi: I'm Pagan and in a triad. We haven't moved in together but we've discussed it and that's exactly how our household would work.

Ever look at mainstream society and marvel at how fucked up it is, yet it's supposed to be "the norm"? I too prefer the company of "freaks".

Sometimes I wonder if we should start a poly group on DU, I know there's a handful of us but I'm not sure there would be enough interest.

[tavalon]

191. Yeah, most people here are more confused by the word than anything

This year marks the first year since 1995 that I haven't been in a live in multipartner relationship (except for the few years I was on walkabout and happily single). I'm currently living with one partner, our son and our dog. Way weird. But it's ok because my other partners come over frequently. Still weird, though.

[Chovexani]

205. Hee. This is actually my first "real" poly relationship

Though I've identified as poly for quite some time, I've had the misfortune of a string of extremely mono partners who just couldn't handle it. I moved out to my current location to explore a poly relationship as a live-in thing but it didn't work out so well. My current partners and I have only just dipped our toes in the triad waters. So it's new but not-new to me at the same time.

I tend to be a moody loner so I like the fact that I can have my space, but my partners' needs are still being met.

[ZombieHorde]

39. Hi heathen!

Thelemic circles are similar except more individualistic. Rituals are orchestrated by whoever has the time, resources, and creativity to put it all together. Polyamory is very common with younger Thelemites, but less common with older ones.

Love is the law.

[tavalon]

188. Yeah, I know Thelema, though I'm not a Thelemite

You guys have the best gnostic masses ever.

As far as polyamory, I've been practicing it since about 1995, almost before Morning Glory Zell coined the phrase.

[ZombieHorde]

195. You guys have the best gnostic masses ever.

You're sweet. You deserve a heart.

[ecstatic]

14. If you feel slightly nauseous, you won't be asked if you're pregnant

If you're in a bad mood, you won't be accused of having PMS

Uggh... and number 44 is so true!

[NJmaverick]

16. WOW! Hillary certainly has brought out the man haters

They are coming out of the wood work!

[Cerridwen]

21. You wanna see what real manhating looks like. I gotcher manhating right here

I'll just copy and paste because some of you guys are so predictable we wrote about you some decades ago.

"Feminists are 'manhaters' - used to imply that if the poster in question, would only "learn to love men," read that as "get laid" or "get a man," rather than "hating men" or "being angry" read that as "instead of being a frigid bitch," the poster would "be cured of her pathology," read that as "remember her 'place' as chattel." Used as a tactic to imply the poster is pathological because she is "angry" or because she "hates men." The men and women who accuse a poster of "hating men" because the poster has criticized or commented on a sexist or abusive post, could perhaps put their defensive outrage in perspective by reading any version of the S.C.U.M. Manifesto to see what angry, manhating looks like. Its author, Valerie Solanas, took her angry, manhating to its logical and extreme conclusion as depicted in I Shot Andy Warhol.

[seabeyond]

27. thats good. i need to bookmark that.

[Cerridwen]

29. Here's the entire document; it was a group project...

the entire document (it needs a bit of time to load)

Paragraph specific links to be used (give it a sec to load)

Please link, copy and paste, and quote at will.

:D

[Orsino]

108. Yeah. The manhating charge makes as much sense...

...as the "Bush-hater" label put on people aghast over his policies. It's a stupid dodge.

Identifying male privilege doesn't have to mean hating anybody, and shouldn't mean hating anyone who doesn't work to protect that privilege. Admitting the existence of a problem is simply the first step of any solution.

[EOTE]

130. So because this woman believes all men are diseased and should be killed...

That means that less extreme forms of man-hating don't exists? Flipping that concept around, I guess anyone short of Ted Bundy on the misogyny scale is a feminist?

I'll just say that I strongly disagree with some of these so called advantages. Men get excessive compliments for even just competent care of their children? I guess that's why judges are so much more likely to allow children to stay with the father in custody disputes. Please.

[Ichingcarpenter]

24. I support Obama now

Dennis then Edwards and I support human rights with a passion.

My son worked for amnesty international in Europe
my daughter for feed africa both are Obama supporters
after moving from Edwards.

This has nothing to do with Hillary.

[LostinVA]

112. What does Hillary have to do with it?

:wtf:

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Der Blaue Engel]

177. WOW! This thread certainly has brought out the woman haters

Not that they needed to come out of the woodwork, since they enjoy open misogyny and resent being called on it.

Edited to add: I prefer to be called an androphobe, myself. }(

[yardwork]

181. So you consider sociological research and its discussion to be "man hating?"

There's nothing in the OP that involves hating men. Did you read the bottom of the post? It's from a website based on sociological research. Those are statements of fact, not opinion.

I don't hate men. Far from it. I have two sons whom I love dearly.

This doesn't blind me to the fact that men are far more privileged than women in most societies, including the U.S. I don't hate men because they're privileged. Do you? Is that why you're afraid to talk about it?

Or do you disagree with each of the points? Do you have your own data, or can you provide links to studies, that disprove them?

[hfojvt]

187. "statements of fact"

yeah, right. They are backed up without a single statistic or study. And Allah help the 'misogynist' who dares to question them. If you want some contrary facts, I can goto my shelf, pull off a copy of "Backlash" and read:

"When contrasted with single women, unwed men fared no better in mental health studies. Single men suffer from twice as many mental health impairments as single women; they are more depressed, more passive, more likely to experience nervous breakdowns and all the designated symptoms of psychological distress - from fainting to insomnia. In one study, one third of the single men scored high for severe neurotic symptoms; only 4 percent of the single women did." p. 17

I guess the men cannot handle all that privilege or something.

[yardwork]

190. Each of the statements is backed up with statistics and studies.

You have to click on the link and go back to the source document.

I'm not familiar with the book _Backlash_. Who wrote it and what are the authors' credentials?

[hfojvt]

207. it appears that only the ones that say "more" have links for backup

so when I click the first one, I find:

"The results? 85% of the job offers from high-price restaurants (where wages are correspondingly high) were made to male job applicants. In contrast, 80% of the job offers from low-price, low-wage restaurants were made to women. This is clear evidence of sex discrimination in employment - evidence which might explain how it is that waitresses in the United States are paid only 75% of what waiters make."

Hang on a second. Women got 80% of the job offers? Not less than 50%? According to the OP, it is a male privilege to get most of the job offers AT ALL LEVELS. As far as what waitresses make, that is just a ridiculous stat. A waitperson makes their base rate + tips. They do not say if they are comparing base rates or take home pay.

So the first link contradicts the supposed male privilege #2. Should I keep going?

Plus, it's sad that Susan has been forgotten already
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst203/documents/faludi.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. Sociological research?

You kidder.

[BlueIris]

17. K&R. Figure it out, people.

[TahitiNut]

18. Now if we could just swap bicycles with the women, we'd have it made!

(Who the hell put that ball-buster bar up so high, anyway??)

:evilgrin:

:hide:

[Cerridwen]

26. Keeeeriminey! Have you seen how far some of those bars on women's

bicycles come forward?

Those ain't just "ball busters".

Though, for propriety's sake, I won't tell you what I call them. But, splitters is part of the phrase.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

28. i know. even when i was a kid i didnt get that. lol ah well. n.t

[Lex Talionis]

149. Ok, now thats funny! Kudos to you.

[kineneb]

317. you can have mine

Women's bike frames are 'way too short for me, I have always had to buy the taller men's frames, especially when I used to do long distance rides. Let me assure you that landing on the crossbar can really hurt if one is female.

[justanaveragedude]

19. We really need to do something about #5

We men don't get enough sexual harassment at work!!!! (sarcasm, joking)

And as far as #24 goes, the label "slut" and any "slut bashing" is usually applied to a woman by other women. Trust me, most guys don't care if you are a slut.

Great list though. I, being a straight white male in the corporate world, can not even begin to deny the truth illustrated by your post.

Great post.

[raccoon]

81. Yes, most guys do care if you're a slut. Especially if they perceive a woman as a slut,

but she won't sleep with him.

Plus they don't respect you. That may sound old-fashioned and it is, but it's still true.

[yardwork]

198. You're right that a lot of women bash other women.

Sociologists call this "horizontal violence" and other terms. The theory is that individuals in oppressed groups will tend to fight one another to obtain a little privilege from the dominant group.

An example would be women in a patriarchal society making fun of another woman to reduce her status and thus eliminate her as a potential competitor for men's favors. Think of the "popular kids" in junior high.

[superduperfarleft]

23. All of these are incredibly useful.

Thanks for posting this. :thumbsup:

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. You're welcome

Just trying to raise the level of consciousness a little.

[UncleSepp]

31. Dead on... except one, 25.

I don't think this one is very true:

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

Sexual availability, probably not. Gender conformity? Oh hell no. The acceptable gender lines for men's clothing are much, much narrower than for women. Fabrics, textures, and colors for the same article with the same fit all have gender meaning attached to them. Admittedly, trans guys obsess over that a bit more than most bio guys, but it's there.

The rest of it? Yeah.... it pretty much rings true. It's a very weird thing to see it from this side now. I can't ever quite know if I am getting along with people better because I am less angry, or because they are less critical.

[noamnety]

246. I think it's simultaneously narrower and wider

Men have a narrower range of what's acceptable for gender conformity. But - their options are more clear cut, and if you are trying to both conform and be comfortable, it's very easy to do that. It's not a difficult thing to manage to conform.

With women, neutral comfortable clothing which is not form-revealing often gets us labeled as men or lesbians or unfeminine.

I have foot issues, for example (bunions + fused bones) - so I need to wear flat shoes with a boxy toe area to accommodate that, because I haven't come to terms yet with needing surgery (despite the doctor yelling at me). I wear sneakers or brown leather construction boots when I teach. One of my students referred to them recently as my "dyke boots."

The last time we went to a wedding, this caused some fights with the husband - I was sent back to change, because my shoes were not girly enough for a wedding - to wear chunky flat shoes, I am limited to pants in regular life, but pants and "manly" shoes is not good enough for a wedding. Basically any shoes I can wear are inappropriate for a woman to wear to a fancy event, whether it's with pants or a dress. I pointed out that his mom wears comfortable padded shoes ("old lady" shoes) and he said yeah, but she's old. I was stuck saying "she's old and she needs shoes that accommodate her foot issues, and I have the same sorts of foot issues." I ended up putting on chunky shoes with a heel, and being in pain all night. I tried to just sit in my chair through the reception and not get up or move around at all. :(

[UncleSepp]

337. That's very true - especially the shoes

There does seem to be some rule that feminine = impractical, uncomfortable, and damn near disposable. I think it started with emulation of idle wealthy women, who wore ridiculous clothes in extreme styles that a working woman could never wear. The habit of wearing long fingernails also came from the same imitation of the idle, on both women and men. Women's clothing seems very aggressively gender typed, too: an item as simple as a turtleneck sweater or a button-up shirt has to be changed in some way to clearly identify it as a woman's shirt - some stupid bit of lace, pockets that are too small, or sleeves that don't go all the way down. I never understood that. And what's with ladies' jackets? Why are they almost always cut to end mid-butt? Who wants to walk around with their butt hanging out in the cold?

I used to have foot issues, too. Still do, but it isn't as bad now; testosterone has enough of an anti-inflammatory property that the early onset arthritis has gone into a sort of remission. Thank goodness! Before, if I had to wear girl shoes, I'd get flats a half size too big and then put running shoe insoles in them for support. That trick worked well with cheap but decorative flat shoes, too: a pair of blue velvet ballet flats from a Chinese import store looked ridiculously fancy, but felt like sneakers :-) The best sneaky going out trick was going to the opera in slippers and pajamas, and looking totally "dressy": heavy Chinese silk pj's, with longjohns underneath and hose over the longjohns, with fancy slippers. Warm, cosy, comfy, and I didn't go falling down the aisle headfirst.

I still do that with dress shoes, and often put padded sports socks on with a dress sock over them so that everything looks professional but feels more comfortable. It also makes it easier to buy shoes, because apparently, boys whose feet are bigger than the top kid size and smaller than the bottom men's size are supposed to spend a couple of years barefoot.

Your husband needs to walk a mile in your moccasins, I think. It sounds awful that he would be more concerned about your wardrobe than your comfort. :-(

[Jeffro40]

32. I'm bored with reverse discrimination.

I'm refuse to feel bad because of the color of my skin and my sex at birth. If people don't like me cause I'm white and male, they can stuff it.

[yewberry]

33. This is not about liking you or not liking you, or wanting anyone to feel badly.

It's at attempt to share what privilege and lack of privilege mean, and how that is manifested.

Like lots of women, I love men. I also appreciate men who understand that women live a very different kind of life than they do.

And really...'reverse discrimination?' Being aware that men have more power and privilege than women do isn't exactly discrimination. Discussing it is *education* not finger-pointing or discrimination.

[Jeffro40]

36. That's hogwash. It was overwhelmingly accusatory

Hiding behind "education" is intellectually dishonest and cowardly, and is the weakest excuse for listing fifty things white men "get" that so many others "don't." It was most definitely "finger pointing." I'm sick and tired at how out of control this supposed "education" of our has become. There are plenty of such list on the internet about women that are as insulting and accusatory of women too.

I'm a fair, honest person who is sensitive to the situation here - as a business person who employs people, I try to make sure everyone gets a fair shake, regardless of race or sex. But I won't be lectured to on the internet under the guise of "education," and then have people say "whaaaaaaaaaat? it's just leaning and education." It's weak.

[yewberry]

40. Wow. Intellectually dishonest and cowardly?

In order to be an effective ally for people who are from different cultural and racial backgrounds, I need to be aware of the challenges that they face.

Do I get followed by security in a department store?
Can I find bandages that match my skin color?
Will I get pulled over driving in a 'nice' neighborhood?
Can my children find positive images in school that look like them?

I am white, and I have more privilege in these situations. It's not right and it's not my own doing, but it's true.


In order for you to be an effective ally for people who aren't white males, you need to be aware of the challenges that they face.

No finger-pointing, no excuses. This is not about being accusatory or insulting, it's about being clear that differences exist, and acknowledging that isn't accepting culpability. It's just true. Please, set aside that defensiveness and be aware that your privilege exists. It's not right and it's not your own doing, but it's true.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. The presumption that this is a one-way street does tremendous damage.

"In order for you to be an effective ally for people who aren't white males, you need to be aware of the challenges that they face."

Some posters here do a wonderful job with a 360° evaluation of the white/minority and male/female relationships, but without denigrating, stereotyping or blaming any group. Their approach, as opposed to the one the OP takes here, holds real promise in leveling our society. In fact, it is the only one that does.

The approach the OP has chosen is scapegoating and stereotyping. A man who doesn't suffer from self-loathing tends to tune out after privilege #1; the totally anecdotal suggestion that other things being equal, men are "probably" given greater consideration for jobs. They tune out because;
1) it seems patently false to just about any man working in a gender-integrated field, and
2) #1 on the list of mens privileges is a phenomenon that "probably" occurs?

I don't really want to wade any deeper than ankle-deep into this topic tonight, but suffice to say that I find this treatment of the topic to be superficial, dishonest and counterproductive.

If a man either disagrees with, or can make a very obvious observation about the reciprocal situation for each of the items on the list, he'll immediately be dismissed as living in denial. Even when he's right.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

72. ANd for fileds dominated by men

E.G. Engineering

I used to be a team lead for about a half dozen engineers. When we had an opening I was pulled into the vps office and told to put resumes of Women and Minorities at the top. The scary thing is I did not even blink I expected this! It did not even occur to me that it was wrong until I started reorganizing the interview order from just experience to race -> gender -> experience.

But if I had walked in and the VP said 'I want to hire a white male' I would have quit on the spot..

Think about it
--

Disclaimer... I believe:

1) Yes racism and sexism exist and yes it does sometimes keep people from getting jobs
2) My experience is not everyones experience

[Matariki]

52. Amen

"It's not right and it's not my own doing, but it's true"

Taking it personally and getting defensive and then denying the truth of it helps no one.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly."

[Ichingcarpenter]

34. With power comes responsibility

With great power comes great responsibility.

Choose to be responsible, for this planet, for nature and for humankind.



In the root and stem of your own psyche
there is an accumulation of bad habits,
If you cannot see through them and act independently of them,
you will unavoidablty get bogged down along the way.

[seabeyond]

35. my white boys are young and in talking about this i got the same whine from them

about how unfair that all fingers are pointing at them.

no i say, it is not about making you feel bad or guilt about who you are, it is awareness, so you can be better.

they got it, and they are so young. now when we talk about all this they do not take it as personal afronts, but merely as information, growth to find solutions for and become a better people.

[Jeffro40]

37. I picked up on your "information sharing."

and let me share with you . . . it was rude. It's obvious whose post you're referring to. But lecturing people on the web when you don't have to face this is cowardly and lame.

But I'm just sharing info with you so you can think about it and learn.

[Ichingcarpenter]

38. The information you shared was

informative in revealing your "Boredom"
with this subject.

Don't do that macho face me crap' dude, and use terms
of 'Lame'ness

to describe your own intellectual dishonesty and
laziness of better rhetoric.

[seabeyond]

41. there was no sly or trick to it. i thought it pretty obvious myself.

nothing rude about it. if a couple little boys can "get" it, then surely a grown man can.

i have listened to my two 40 something year old brothers whine about being picked on because they are white male as they talk about n*ggers, f*gs, and derogatory about women and their place for a while now cause the republicans and limbaugh have opened up the gates that it is O.K. for them to be bigots.

then they whine about being the all powerful white males

mothers have a hell of a lot of power too. i understand and know. and i take the responsibility seriously. i do not complain about having the power, or ignore the power i do have over my children and others and abuse them or allow others to. that is my responsibilitiy

as a female i have powers over male. i recognize them. i hold all my sisters to that responsibilitiy or i get on their ass, and point the finger at them. i do not pretend it isnt there.

[donsu]

131. "rude"? "cowardly"? goodness, get a grip

nt

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

73. Sometimes people do use it to demean men

Some people do mean it as an affront kind of a 9if you wernt a white guy you would not have gotten the job).. Which is what a female classmate told me when I got my first job (despite the fact our GPA was about the same and I had more experience because of an internship)


Its damn hard to address this correctly with kids (and my Angels are Girls so I'm really going to have to figure out how to do it) I applaud you for managing.

[seabeyond]

76. you know those little angels of yours, lol lol..... ahhhhh

let me tell you....

one of the reasons it works in this house is we (I) really try to be fair. one of the problems we have had with little girls from preschool on (stopped about 7th grade) was the little girls hit, scratched, pinched, kicked kicked and kicked the little boys. and they NEVER get in trouble for it. my oldest would come home with marks on him. would tell me horror stories of what happened to other boys. if the boys said something to the teacher, it was suck it up. dont be a wuss. where as if a boy defended himself by merely pushing the girl off him, while she is kicking him leaving bruises, the boy got in trouble.

i would like to see parents teach their little girls that it would behove them not to hit now when parents are telling their boys under no circumstance are they allowed to hit a girl because.... there just might be a karma thing.

i had one little girl in sons third grade who pinched ears. i told her, stop pinching his ear. that son was NOT allowed to retaliate and it was wrong. the girl says to me..... oh the power, the power i have. my mouth dropped. was a big wtf to me. we then had a little more stern talk than just me nicely asking.

my sons see that i recogniZE there are injustices all over the place, not just one sided and in that, they have learned to trust that i will at least try to be fair. it is when these boys are young and continually seeing the one sided injustices and expectations that i think is starting all this stuff. my boys and i have talked about injustices from all sides since i can remember and i think it will serve them well.

i work hard with my nieces on their responsibilities as females and the things we do. also i dont believe in creating victims. like a female is helpless. i dont allow that at all. even when it is something a male has done to female i ask what she did to stand up to it. my 12 yr old niece went to restaraunt with an adult female and her friend. a waiter rubbed crotch on her to intimidate, abuse, whatever. sick fuck was around 40. pissed me off so. i asked the adult female what she did. NOTHING. they stayed quiet. was getting dark and afraid to walk to car. i was outraged. taught the two young girls exactly the wrong thing. i was yelling, you sit there. you do nothing. do you think i would have just smiled, tipped and walked out. they made themselves victims. this is what i would really like for girls to be taught.

and never whining and making excuses. if my son does run up against a teacher not being fair, or a teacher that isnt good, it isnt his to blame her. it is his to find a solution. learn outside the class. do whatever to get along in class. figure it out. be proactive. dont just sit there and suffer repercussions without doing anything. your daughters face discrimination in work force, they have choices.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

144. You remind me of my parents

I was a very small kid (shortest in my school until I grew a foot in the 7th grade) and I got picked on allot. I would do the 'right thing' and go tell a teacher when it happened and, of course, by making myself a victim I made things a thousand times worse. It got to the point where I was getting beat up two or three times a week.

Finally I came home one day and my mother told me to forget about the teachers and if someone was about to hit me to take the first shot and not to stop until I was pulled off of them. Well sure enough it happened I still got the crap kicked out of me but it was the last time.

When my mother came to pick me up for fighting the teacher wsa explaining what happened at which point my mother said, and Ill never forget this, 'Good he did what I told him to' the look on the teachers face was priceless..

[orleans]

48. that's the spirit!

:patriot:

(NOT!)

[Romulox]

45. Wealthy women have long attempted to pretend that their wealth is not "privilege"

See the Erica Jong piece flogged about here recently, e.g. The argument is absurd on its face; class matters WAY more than gender in this country.

For example, a woman stands a very good chance of being our next president. There is ZERO chance of a person from the working class, of any color or gender, becoming President of the USA. Ever.

[seabeyond]

47. a wealthy black has privilige. does that mean we ignore the racism against blacks? n/t

[Romulox]

51. Nope. Neither should we insist that skid row whites are "privileged" relative to him

By the way, I'd prefer it if you used the construction "a wealthy black person", please. Describing people as adjectives has always struck me as abrupt, at best...

[VotesForWomen]

167. they are priviliged in a *racial* sense over blacks, and that of course is the issue, as with sexism

but some people are determined to muddy the waters by talking about a 'wealthy woman' vs. a 'poor man' or some such thing. the issue of this thread is not total, net privilege, it is *gender based* privilege. and btw, in your subject line you referred to white people as 'whites' and then criticised the other poster for referring to black people as 'blacks' instead of saying 'black people.'

[seabeyond]

184. the subject used "whites" and lectures, black person.....

i wouldnt have caught it, felt poster was just being too silly , but geee zus, thanks for catching. tis funny. couldnt be more funny.

lordy, rollin eyes.

[Romulox]

264. "Whites" simply doesn't have the racial baggage "blacks" has. My request to you was specific. nt

[seabeyond]

273. bullshit, you fucked up. inconsistancy or hypocrisy?

now, if you want to use the argument with cracker vs n*gger.... i am right there with you.

[Romulox]

276. No. "Blacks" is considered offensive by some. "Whites" is not.

I'm sorry there is not a neat parity in the way language is racialized, but I don't make the rules.

If consistently is important to you, you should use "white persons" and "black persons", but you should remain aware that the usage of "blacks" is likely to offend some, while "whites" probably will not.

[seabeyond]

278. no it isnt. n/t

[Romulox]

281. There is none so blind...

Seems like you aren't interested in a discussion, so :hi:

[Romulox]

265. In other words, you don't want people to talk about CLASS

"the issue of this thread is not total, net privilege,"

Of course the issue is "total, net privilege,"; I understand that it is very convenient for a group that is privileged in one respect (class or race, say,) to downplay this privilege, but it's not terribly honest.

"btw, in your subject line you referred to white people as 'whites'"

The construction "whites" simply doesn't have the same baggage as the construction "blacks", and I was therefore quite specific in my request. I understand some of these distinctions may be too nuanced for some, but such is the culture we live in...

[VotesForWomen]

327. by all means, start a thread about class if you want; this one is about gender. and your excuse

for screwing up is pretty weak; it's very easy to use the same construction when referring to either race, and i didn't know being black had any 'baggage' associated with it. it's just as good as being white.

[gollygee]

182. Skid row white men are privileged over skid row white women

skid row black men are privileged over skid row black women

skid row white men are privileged over skid row black men

skid row white women are privileged over skid row black women

THAT is how privilege works. It's a whole group that is privileged for one attribute of that group - not one particular person being privileged over another particular person. Any given person might have privilege for a number of reasons.

[Romulox]

267. People aren't "whole groups"--they are individuals.

When a poor white man is denied an education because of his economic status, he is not able to take solace in George Soros' wealth.

"THAT is how privilege works. It's a whole group that is privileged for one attribute of that group - not one particular person being privileged over another particular person. Any given person might have privilege for a number of reasons."

No it's not. If a man has no money in this country, he doesn't eat. He doesn't experience his hunger as a "whole group". He experiences it as an individual.

[gollygee]

311. Yes, but privilege is about whole groups

It is about what benefits you have as a part of a group. If a man has no money, even though has the privilege of being male, he lacks the privilege that comes with being wealthy. People who have wealth have privilege that he doesn't have, and he suffers because of that. He is not suffering due to a lack of privilege for being male.

You're right that poor people suffer, and any particular individual man might not be able to realize all of the privilege that exists for men as a group because he might lack other kinds of privilege. But that's not what privilege is about. It explains why some men in this thread are offended by this idea of privilege though, and I appreciate understanding that. They think that the fact that privilege exists for the whole group means that they are being blamed for the privilege as individuals. I haven't been able to understand where the offense was coming from because I don't look at individuals and think about what specific privileges that specific person might have and what specific privileges they might not have. Men as a group have some privileges over women, but specific men might not have realized all of those privileges, and any given individual man can't be blamed for the privilege of the whole group any more than each wealthy person on earth can be blamed for the privileges of wealth in general, or any given white person can be blamed for the existence of privileges for being white. These privileges exist even if we don't want them to exist, and even if we as individuals work against the existence of these privileges. A wealthy person who gives tons and tons of money to charity for the poor is a wonderful person and is working hard to help poor people, but is still part of a group that receives privileges for being wealthy.

[tigereye]

119. there have been some "working class" presidents, haven't there?

just curious. I'm not sure the term existed in the same sense, in the earlier parts of our history...

[noamnety]

193. I've NEVER seen a person pretend wealth isn't privilege.

I'd like to see an example of that. I suspect you are misrepresenting something there.

A wealthy man has male privilege that a wealthy woman does not have.
A wealthy white man has white privilege that a wealthy black man does not have.

You are trying to present this as if one sort of privilege negates all other social dynamics. It doesn't. And it's not a contest to see which TYPE of privilege gives people the most advantage.

The checklist is simply pointing out which TYPES of privilege come neatly packaged up with the experience of being male in our culture.

It exists in addition to privileges that come with race and class.

[Lorien]

46. One that was missed:

47. If I am accepted for a position with a company, chances are that women in the company holding the same position-even if they have been there for years-will only be paid sixty cents on my dollar.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. The figure is 77 cents, and it's misleading.

"On its face, the evidence in the AAUW study looks damning. "One year out of college," it says, "women working full-time earn only 80 percent as much as their male colleagues earn. Ten years after graduation, women fall farther behind, earning only 69 percent as much as men earn."

But read more, and you learn things that don't get much notice on Equal Pay Day. As the report acknowledges, women with college degrees tend to go into fields like education, psychology and the humanities, which typically pay less than the sectors preferred by men, such as engineering, math and business. They are also more likely than men to work for nonprofit groups and local governments, which do not offer salaries that Alex Rodriguez would envy.

As they get older, many women elect to work less so they can spend time with their children. A decade after graduation, 39 percent of women are out of the work force or working part time -- compared with only 3 percent of men. When these mothers return to full-time jobs, they naturally earn less than they would have if they had never left.

Even before they have kids, men and women often do different things that may affect earnings. A year out of college, notes AAUW, women in full-time jobs work an average of 42 hours a week, compared to 45 for men. Men are also far more likely to work more than 50 hours a week.

Buried in the report is a startling admission: "After accounting for all factors known to affect wages, about one-quarter of the gap remains unexplained and may be attributed to discrimination" (my emphasis). Another way to put it is that three-quarters of the gap clearly has innocent causes -- and that we actually don't know whether discrimination accounts for the rest.

I asked Harvard economist Claudia Goldin if there is sufficient evidence to conclude that women experience systematic pay discrimination. "No," she replied. There are certainly instances of discrimination, she says, but most of the gap is the result of different choices. Other hard-to-measure factors, Goldin thinks, largely account for the remaining gap -- "probably not all, but most of it."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/119920.html

[Lorien]

53. You are quoting a Libertarian magazine? . Please. I was working as a

commercial artist for a huge corporation years ago when I helped a male former coworker get a job in my department. He wasn't as experienced, knowledgeable, fast or accurate as I am, yet they paid him $45 and hour while paying me $35 an hour. After a short investigation, I found out that I was actually being paid $10 more per hour then the rest of my female colleagues ( because I was considered "indispensable"), but still $10-15 less than every one of the men doing the same job. I know for a fact that pay discrimination on the basis of gender is a very real problem.

[PeaceNikki]

70. This is an issue near and dear to my heart.

And one that caused a huge flamewar here on DU just last week with 2 people who think the gap doesn't exist.

Thank you for bringing it into the discussion. It is real. Some will point out that it's not in EVERY industry, but that doesn't make it less real in most. Some will state that THEY'VE never seen it firsthand. But that doesn't make it less real for many.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. The American Association of University Women's study

Indicates that, correcting for other factors, new female college graduates are paid perhaps 5 cents less than men, and that that discrimination may play a role in explaining some of that. It is not me saying this, it's buried in the AAUW report.

For men and women who never marry and never have children, there is no earnings gap.

I'm old enough that I have seen it first hand, too. In later years, I've seen the opposite. Public policy should not be based on anecdotes, especially not ones 20 years out of date.

[bean fidhleir]

143. In engineering, women and men are paid the same at the same rank

BUT women spend years longer getting to a given rank because

- they get assigned to QA, maintenance, or liaison rather than development

- they aren't considered for project leader except on low-prestige projects

- they're rarely considered for high-prestige projects at all


...so, when promotion budgeting is done, they obviously don't have the experiential check-offs to get promoted.


I know. As a boss, I was one of the highest-ranking women engineers at the large corporation (thousands of engineers) where I worked, and yet I was not far from the bottom of the manager ladder despite having over 20 years industry experience. When I came there, I started requiring that women get a make-up share of plum assignments. Predictably, I was immediately accused of playing favorites and, yes, sexism. And few of the outraged male accusers were willing to hear that up until I got there, there had been a de-facto 100% quota in favor of men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

179. And you were guilty of it.

"I started requiring that women get a make-up share of plum assignments. Predictably, I was immediately accused of playing favorites and, yes, sexism."

If you gave assignments on any criteria other than fitness, then you may be considered well-intentioned by some (I suspect if I were a school superintendent and I gave male teachers "plum assignments" on the basis of "make up" I doubt you'd find my motives benign.) but are in reality just part of the problem. Now the female engineers whom you gave a leg up are, with some justification, perceived as not having earned their positions.

The skilled male engineers who work for you should go to another department where their careers are not sacrificed on an altar of your personal views of gender justice. This is exactly the advice I'd give to skilled female engineers who work for a man who picks other men for the good opportunities.

I see no need to sugar coat this, this management behavior you have described is unacceptable for men or women. I hope it was overstated in an attempt to make your point.

I've been in mechanical engineering for 25 years. Female engineers were once rare, but now that 60% of college graduates are women, they are less rare - and as you have directly pointed out, are getting the high profile assignments, and according to the AAUW, the same pay.

BTW, the female engineers in my acquaintance, although skilled, spend fewer years as full-time employees and are unwilling to travel. I do not begrudge them that choice, because I made the same one. I'm now a stay-at-home dad/freelance engineer, but I knew that I was making a conscious choice between career and family.

I don't spend long hours at the office, nor do I travel. My pay and the opportunities I get reflect that choice.

[bean fidhleir]

239. Sorry, but you don't get to play the "let bygones be bygones" card

just because it's catchup time.

The only ones who whine when "white male bonus points" stop being a factor are the mediocre, who need them. They're also the ones who, like you, assume upfront that the women getting the assignments are less qualified and are being given unfair preference. As far as they're concerned, the old way was completely fair -i.e., they got the assignments- so anything different must be unfair.

The really top men think a level field is a good idea. They like working with other able people and they judge on merit, which is part of what makes them really top people in the first place.

[lumberjack_jeff]

297. What gave you the right to act as a one-woman affirmative action crew?

You yourself just said that you gave the women in your employ "the plum assignments" because you felt it was the politically correct thing to do. Nowhere in your post did you even suggest that the people you bestowed with your grace were more meritorious in terms of ability to complete the projects than their male peers.

I'm assuming nothing. I'm reading what you said. You proudly said they were given unfair preference - by you.

Only a poor engineer would think a field is leveled by tilting it the other direction.

[bean fidhleir]

323. Oh, don't kid yourself. You're assuming PLENTY.

You apparently can't even imagine that a woman can be as well-qualified as a man, and that I could choose the woman without being unfair.

"You proudly said they were given unfair preference"

Why don't you quote the words I used, so we can all watch you inventing things that aren't there. Go ahead, quote them and give us your interpretation. It'll be amusing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

324. Backpedalling is unseemly.

When I came there, I started requiring that women get a make-up share of plum assignments. Predictably, I was immediately accused of playing favorites

The first sentence is quite clear, I needn't give any interpretation. The second sentence describes a reaction that was wholly justified, morally and legally.

Don't strain yourself speculating about what I think. I'll tell you.

If you're now saying that you didn't pick women for the "plum assignments" because of your desire to give your gender "a make-up share" but instead because of their engineering/project management skill, then you should have said that instead of the 180° opposite.

[bean fidhleir]

325. See, you're unable even to grasp the concept.

What I did was to require that the fully-qualified woman be chosen over the fully-qualified man every time. That was the catch-up preference. But you can't even get your head around that any more than the boys (and I use the word intentionally) who complained to me, my boss, and personnel could. To males like you, preferences shown to men are natural, whereas preferences shown to women are ipso facto unfair.

[lumberjack_jeff]

326. No, to "boys" like me, gender preference is unacceptable.

And managers who engage in it are ipso facto unfit.

The term "power-drunk" springs to mind. Or perhaps "fantasy world".

[bean fidhleir]

331. Sure it is.

Kid yourself all you like, you're not fooling anyone else.

[lumberjack_jeff]

332. Perhaps not, but you did fool me.

Well done. I wish I were as good at fishing.

No female engineer skilled enough to attain management rank would risk it by promoting through any basis other than merit.

I've worked in the field long enough that I should have known that talented female engineers are too intelligent and capable of discriminating between similar choices to do what you claim you are doing.

I can be so gullible sometimes.

[noamnety]

338. If it were SO unacceptable to you

You would express a larger amount of outrage at this "until I got there, there had been a de-facto 100% quota in favor of men" than at someone trying to even the scales.

I haven't seen you express the outrage over 100% of the preferential treatment going to men, though. Why is that? Were you so outraged you started a new thread about it, instead of commenting here? Did I miss that thread?

Or are you only outraged when someone tries to undo that?

Or maybe I misunderstood this post, and you meant that all the people who'd been in that job before were power-drunk?

[lumberjack_jeff]

340. If you had known me for the last 25 years...

... you would have known that I have strongly encouraged women, collectively and individually, to take engineering.

Once they become engineers, they should be given roles commensurate with their skill and ability to get the job done, just like their male peers. In my experience, the 10% of engineers who were women got about 20% of the good (non-travel) opportunities, because these women self-selected as being unusually interested and talented in engineering and felt (perhaps with some justification) they had something to prove.

And yes, I'm outraged when someone subverts that. Just as you would be if I gave men under-the-table preferential treatment as the principal at your school because of their minority status. (Forgive me if I'm wrong, in previous discussions, I seem to remember that you are a teacher)

I highly suspect the poster to whom I was replying was engaging in some rich fantasy. None of the women I've worked with in engineering would boast of doing what she says.

[noamnety]

341. If I were the principal at our school

I would be concerned that all our teachers are white, while at least half the student body is not.

So I would definitely consider using affirmative action in our hiring practices.

My daughter went through this at her college - she was a student rep on a hiring committee. Their progressive little college has no black students (if I recall correctly), an all white staff, and they are forever scratching their heads trying to figure out why they can't attract a more diverse student body. Why is it that the black kids are getting the message this school isn't for them? Gee, I wonder.

Now on her hiring committee, some people thought the first round of reading resumes should be blind - remove names and race and photos so the resumes were on equal footing. In the final rounds, they wanted to award some weight to minority status, because it has value for the student body.

Here's a no brainer quiz - all of the men (white men) were in unanimous agreement as to whether affirmative action should be used. What did the white men think?

[lumberjack_jeff]

342. What did the white men think?

If the committee were reflective of the student body, there were only four of them compared to the six women. What did it matter what they think?

That said, perhaps they were the ones who took to heart the idea that;
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

I would be concerned that all our teachers are white, while at least half the student body is not.
Yet, every grade school is half boys. I think it is at least arguable that a boy of any ethnicity is more in need of a male role model than yet another female who happens to share his ethnicity.

As I said in my previous post I definitely agree with the idea of targeted recruitment; I think it is good for everyone to have more men entering college and more of the women who are in college choose engineering. I think there must be a clear justification before using quotas in hiring.

I strongly disagree with (as the previous poster claimed to have been doing) promoting on the basis of gender.

[noamnety]

343. Well, congrats. You'd fit right in with them.

Ain't it funny how people with privilege are so very outraged when their own is threatened, and have such a very hard time expressing outrage when anyone else's is threatened?

No outrage on your end, I'm sure, that no black people had gotten teaching positions there in the past - or any ability to comprehend that the whitedude club making the decisions had maybe benefited themselves from whitedude affirmative action.

Ironic, eh?

Power reproduces power.

[lumberjack_jeff]

344. Privilege is an odd thing.

I find it interesting how someone with a masters degree uses the example of her college degreed daughters to lecture the uneducated white guy and his sons who will also have only the most rudimentary community-college education about their "privilege".

After all, I'm sure that the people who got up at 4:00 am to drive the truck that paid for college enjoyed the role they played in the "whitedude club".

Ain't it funny how people with privilege are so very outraged when their own is threatened, and have such a very hard time expressing outrage when anyone else's is threatened?

Here are two very direct questions which explore the dualistic nature of the point which seems to escape you.
1) How many male teachers and paraeducators (those who have direct daily contact with the kids) work at your school? Of how many total? Does this imply that the boys at your school are deprived of role models? Would you support affirmative action on the male students behalf?
2) Women are awarded custody in 90% of divorce cases where custody is disputed. Is this bias reflective of what is best for children? If so, is it a reasonable supposition that what is best for children is for fathers to be in the workplace and mothers custodial parents? Explain how the logic is faulty which leads to the conclusion that workplace gender-based affirmative action (on behalf of women) harms children.

Equality: it isn't just for you.

Back to the point of this subthread, engineers who are given important tasks on any basis other than talent and experience, kill people.

[noamnety]

345. I don't have a master's yet

I'm working on it because it's a job requirement.
My daughter does not have a college degree.

A good chunk of my career life was spent in an army uniform - I know, I know. The height of privilege. :eyes:

Please learn the difference between male privilege, white privilege and class privilege. We can carry on this conversation when you've figured that out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

346. The difference between the three is that two of them exist. n/t

[noamnety]

347. Wow. nt

[hfojvt]

148. most schmost

Perhaps if I ever got up to the level where people are making $35 an hour, I might see it. Most people are not making $35 an hour. Criminy, even my department head is only making about $30 an hour. I've never seen a gap down here in $8 an hour land, and I am not terribly concerned about $35 an hour people who think they should be making more money. I'd love to trade problems with them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. That's true. There are very few feminist sources which quote the fine print of the AAUW report.

[noamnety]

194. Not this crap again. The pay gap is AFTER adjustments.

If you don't account for career choice, child rearing, and all that, we earn 46 cents for every dollar men earn.


After adjusting for "annual hours worked, time out of the labor force, work experience, highest education achieved, full-time versus part-time schedule, length of unemployment, tenure, occupation, industry, self-employment status, and numerous demographic variables," the pay gap that remained, based on gender alone (not habits attributed to gender like child-rearing), was 21%. Before the adjustments, the average pay for a man was $35,942 and for a woman, $16,554. (pg. 29)

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

[lumberjack_jeff]

224. One at a time

1) first, the unadjusted differential for the study of which you speak is 44%, meaning that women earn 66% of what men do, without normalizing.
2) the timeframe from which your data is taken is from 1983 to 2000. It is not current, and (despite the significant conflict of interest questions about the entrusting the AAUW to do an impartial study which justifies their existence) the AAUW data is much newer.
3) the data of every study is only normalized with very easy to quantify data (e.g. not comparing paraeducators to commercial fishermen)

http://www.dllr.state.md.us/labor/equalpay/appendixatoeequalpay.doc

"There are several theories about why such disparities exist. According to a study conducted by the United States General Accounting Office, without adjusting for factors that affect wages, women earned 44% less than men during the period of the 1983-2000 (GAO, 44). However, once those factors were incorporated into the equation, the gap dropped to 21%. In recent years the gap is decreasing and, in Maryland, it is substantially less than in most other states. Among the significant factors were work patterns, choice of industry, choice of occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. In consulting other similar studies and sources, the two major factors seemingly affecting wages are the differences in industries and occupations females and males choose, as well as the work patterns they have at those jobs (GAO, 10)."

For instance, in no study is an attempt made to quantify the effect that the fact that men work longer hours than women has on their career prospects.

In public employment, where men only work only slightly more than women with equal education, women made 80% to 91% of the wages of men. Bear in mind that this still treats the schoolteacher as equivalent to the civil engineer, and that this data is averaged from 1983 to 2000.

Further, table 5 indicates that a man in the private sector, with a college degree worked 46.2 hours per week, and made $65,000/year. The study then did the math and decided that his wages were $27.34. This overstates his wage significantly. After accounting for overtime pay rates, his wage was $25.35.

Women tend to choose careers which are more family friendly. This single factor explains almost entirely the pay disparity.

Starting on page 23 of the Maryland report above, is appended another report from Institute for Women’s Policy Research prepared for the state.

Amid a whole bunch of hyperventilation over the horrid situation that justifies the IWPR's existence;

Women working (full time full year) earn on average $8,600 per year less than their male counterparts, for a gender earnings ratio of 82 percent. In hourly wage terms, for every dollar men earn, women earn 87 cents (88 cents for FTFY workers).

Men on average work 4.6 hours per week and one week per year more than women. This difference is smaller for people working full-time full-year: Women average 42.3 hours per week, compared with 44.9 hours for men, and both groups work on average 51.9 weeks per year. Thus, average levels of work effort are similar across the whole workforce and nearly identical for male and female FTFY workers.

AND

More than one-fifth of the difference in women’s and men’s earnings cannot be explained by differences in their education, potential work experience, job characteristics, or other measurable factors.

What she's essentially saying is that once you correct for the measurable factors, that the 12% differential declines to something less than 3%. And the flawed methodology she uses to determine an hourly wage rate, (ignoring the effect of overtime pay rates) explains that small discrepancy entirely.

The AAUW came to a similar conclusion, similarly obfuscated. This is taken directly from AAUW's report.
http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf

The pay gap between female and male college graduates cannot be fully accounted for by factors known to affect wages, such as experience (including work hours), training, education, and personal characteristics. Gender pay discrimination can be overt or it can be subtle. It is difficult to document because someone’s gender is usually easily identified by name, voice, or appearance. The only way to discover discrimination is to eliminate the other possible explanations. In this analysis the portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation. These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the work force.

One last observation. If women cost 30-50% less than men for a given job, why would any rational business hire men?

[noamnety]

225. Once again, the GAO study accounted for career choices

Yes it's a major factor. Eliminating that one factor is part of what reduces the REAL gap from 44% to the hypothetical gap of 21%.

The 21% pay gap is what remains after equalizing for that.

I have never seen a man so hell bent on disproving that women make less money than men. Listen, the reality is WORSE than the hypothetical. We are trying to get by on 16,000 REAL dollars to your $30,000 dollars. We cannot live on that amount, we cannot save for retirement on that amount, we have more years to live, statistically, and statistically, we end up doing it in more severe forms of poverty.

Women live in this country, and globally, in disproportionate numbers in poverty. You get that, right? Is there a purpose to denying it? Is there a purpose in refusing to acknowledge that discrimination plays a role in that?

Is there a purpose in refusing to acknowledge that this results in - statistically - men being born into relative privilege as a result of their gender?

I tried to use the word statistically a whole lot here, because apparently some people here are having trouble grasping the notion of statistics, and are either confusing statistics with stereotypes, or seem to feel that if THEY PERSONALLY did not fall exactly at the center of the bell curve, the entire curve no longer exists.

[lumberjack_jeff]

227. Yes. Truth is a valid purpose.

A woman who can't live on $16,000 real dollars should choose a career and work the kind of hours that enable a man to make $30,000. It's not a big mystery. Men are choosing careers with earning potential as the primary determinator, women are choosing careers with flexibility and nonmonetary reward. So long as you're more likely to die commercial fishing and logging, those careers will pay better.

What privilege exists is not one born of Y chromosomes, it is one born of sacrifices.

Why am I "hell bent on disproving" that which is dishonest? Really? Public policy should not be driven by conventional wisdom. This is no less true in the (albeit one-sided) gender wars than it is in the GWOT. "The terrorists are right on your doorstep! Really, honest! I have a study here from Halliburton which says so!"

The organizations which are paid to distort data and generate outrage are not working in society's interest.

The AAUW study and the IWPR study both made a similar offhand observation; when couples have children, women's hours (and pay) significantly decreases while mens increases. Why is that? Could it be that men are spending more time working away from home to support their new family?

Of course not, silly. It's because men are privileged and don't want to get their hands icky with poopy diapers. And the solution is to assure that their family cannot benefit from that sacrifice. :banghead:

The only item the OP left out of the diatribe was the privilege we men feel when we intentionally leave the toilet seat up.

[flvegan]

50. 47. Because I recognize these realities, I do what I can to promote equality.

Thanks for making me feel like shit anyway.

[yewberry]

55. Why feel like shit?

You know I love you, buddy.

Seriously, what is it that is so bad here? You're a great guy. You've worked to help ensure safety for women in precarious places. I really think that you know all of this stuff. So what is it that makes you feel bad? What is causing the defensiveness that I'm seeing in this thread?

I've done lots of work with different communities, and along with that goes trainings about what privilege means, especially for white people. I'm white, and I know that I have institutionalized privilege that I didn't earn and didn't ask for. Sure, that makes me feel crummy, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Is this different?

I'm asking seriously, and I do respect your opinion.

Thanks.

[flvegan]

61. Like I said, I recognize those realities.

I've tried to phrase this a number of times, and each one has been worse than the one before.

All I can say is that I'm tired of being/feeling sorry.

[yewberry]

63. Recognizing and being aware is the whole point.

No one is asking anything more.

BTW, I do understand being tired of those feelings. Been there. I think it's a mistake to let that get in the way, though. It sucks that there's never, ever going to be a point at which I as a white person can check off a box and conclude that my efforts as an anti-oppression ally are done. That can never happen, because privilege and oppression aren't going away as long as people deny them. Same for you.

Don't let the fact that this kind of thing is a journey poison you.

[bean fidhleir]

263. If you're not part of the problem, nobody is asking you to wear any

sackcloth or ashes. If you do all you can, that's all anyone can ask. If you do less, then think about what that means, because that's why we're always in the shit politically, with no healthcare, jobs being shipped overseas, politicians who sell us out over and over again, and everything else.

But if you're really truly doing all you can, you have nothing to feel guilty about. Got that? Nothing. You are officially off the hook.

(And you also have no reason for acting like people are kicking your puppy when they raise the issue, because if you're truly doing all you can, then it's not about you.)

[Ichingcarpenter]

56. Well, the thread did generate

self examination.

I honestly think that we need
to get past the labels and move on
to

WHAT IS HUMAN DIGITY?

But, this country, has gone back to
re-examining water boarding, a recognized
art of torture from the 15th century.

[Marr]

58. On the other hand, you're allowed to show emotion, ask for help, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, don't mothers also spend considerably more time holding and caring for their female daughters?

I don't mean to belittle anyone else's experience, but inequality can cut both ways, and many of the male/female stereotypes that are ingrained in out culture can have negative effects on men as well.

I remember a couple of experiences back in junior high school, for instance. My sister (I had sisters, no brothers) had been harassed by a boy on the schoolbus. He'd thrown something at her. She went to my parents to complain, and my mother was at the school bright and early to make sure that kid was punished. And he was.

A few months later, I was beaten up by a few older boys. High schoolers. I looked a mess when I walked in the house, but hoped to get myself cleaned up before anyone saw and asked what happened. Well, mom was there and she asked, so I told her. Her response? "Why were you such a pussy? Why didn't you fight them off?". No follow up, no help, nothing. If I couldn't fix the problem myself, then I deserved it. That was the attitude.

I'm not trying to play a little violin here, I'm just trying to say that inequality can be rough on both parties in different ways.

[Ichingcarpenter]

59. It is about Human dignity

which was my point on both threads I started.

[yewberry]

60. I think we're talking about different things.

The checklist is about institutionalized privilege and power.

No one is suggesting that men and boys don't face challenges as individuals or as a group. However, this discussion isn't about that. It's about being aware of privilege for some groups and how that is manifested for people outside those groups.

[Marr]

62. I wasn't referring to an individual experience.

Except insofar as one might highlight a general societal attitude. In this case, the fact that there are also some privileges females enjoy in our society which males do not. It fits into the discussion just fine, though I understand it doesn't do much to advance the simple scapegoating angle of the OP.

I know you don't think the OP is accusatory at all, but I disagree. I think this sort of thing is very counterproductive, and only fosters resentment.

[yewberry]

64. We're talking about *institutionalized* privilege.

Which institutions of power that you deal with daily are controlled by women?

Your job? The police? The educational system? The courts?

I wouldn't suggest that women don't have some privileges that men do not, but this discussion about institutionalized privilege, not scapegoating. This checklist is a common tool in many anti-oppression curricula, and it's not meant to reflect the experience of everyone. It's just a tool, and I'm sorry it's made you feel so defensive.

[Marr]

65. There's a bit of defensiveness, yes--

because the impression is one of being insulted. Perhaps you're right and that's not the intent, but it is the first impression I get. And I doubt I'm all that unusual.

I assume you want a tool to help people understand one another better. In my opinion, this sort of thing does the opposite, that's all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Schools? Family court? n/t

[yewberry]

221. Schools?

Populated by female teachers, but principals, administrators, superintendents, and legislative bodies are still overwhelmingly male.

Family courts? So you're suggesting that there are more women judges, lawmakers, and lawyers? Uh, that's not the case. Yes, there has been a change in trends re: custody legislation over the past 20 years or so, but that's really not a compelling example.

[noamnety]

226. Family Court

"Throughout history, gender stereotypes have played a key role in child custody dispositions. Despite current gender-neutral statutes, men's advocacy groups claim that custody decisions continue to discriminate against fathers. Women's advocacy groups and the media counter that custody decisions discriminate against mothers. Contradictory perceptions can be traced to the imprecision of the best interest standard, anecdotal cases that have been popularized in the media, a selection bias among cases that are decided in court, the absence of reliable nonpartisan research, distortions of existing research, and implicit assumptions about which parent should get custody. Gender stereotypes that favor mothers' preferential claims to custody are not supported by research, and the primary parent presumption is regarded as seriously flawed. Rather than focus on the demands of adults, custody reform should address the needs of children."

Abstract:
Richard A. Warshak (1996)
GENDER BIAS IN CHILD CUSTODY DECISIONS
Family Court Review 34 (3), 396–409.

[lumberjack_jeff]

302. The other side.

So the courts are saying that they're doing just fine. I hope I can hide my surprise.

The National Organization for Women's recently released Family Court Report 2002 claims that family courts are "wrought with gender bias" against women. However, the respondents to the survey upon which the report is based were not chosen at random, but were instead self-selected from among those whom NOW calls its "constituents." If one selects a survey's respondents, one can make the survey show almost anything. For this reason, these types of Self-selected Listener Opinion Polls, commonly known as SLOPs, are viewed as junk social science by serious researchers.

NOW's report sounds the alarm on women's "loss of custody through gender bias" but the vacuity of this claim can be demonstrated by examining how rarely courts grant custody to fathers in contested cases.

For example, a Stanford study of 1,000 divorced couples selected at random found that divorcing mothers were awarded sole custody four times as often as divorcing fathers in contested custody cases. A study of all divorce-custody decrees in Arlington County, Virginia over an 18 month period found that no father was given sole or even joint custody unless the mother agreed to it. According to Frank Bishop, the former director of the Virginia Division of Child Support Enforcement, almost 95% of custody cases in Virginia were won by mothers.

An Ohio study published in Family Advocate found that fathers seeking sole custody obtain it in less than 10% of cases, and a Utah study conducted over 23 years found similar results. According to the 2000 Census Bureau report, mothers comprise 85% of all custodial parents.
http://www.glennsacks.com/fathers_bear_the.htm

To defend the status quo requires defending the idea that men are poorly suited to be parents, and that the interests of the children dictate that moms stay home and dads work.

Pick one. Workplace equity or family court privilege.

[Marr]

105. By the way, many-- if not most-- of those items have nothing to do

with "institutionalized privilege". You seem to be defining the OP's statement into what you want it to be.

[Romulox]

272. 90+ % of my instructors at all levels of school have been women

In my graduate program, I'd say it's closer to 80%.

I'd get upset about it, but my school has a damn fine faculty, I'd have to say.

[lumberjack_jeff]

307. One of the primary reasons for the dropout rate among boys

And the fact that so few go to college is that too few boys have any role models in their formative years.

90% of children of divorce live primarily with mom, and it seems safe to suggest that divorced moms are probably more likely to have a poor opinion of men. In the primary grades very few students will have male teachers. It isn't until middle school that male teachers can be described as anything but rare.

By then it's too late.

[seabeyond]

312. there you go jack

i think this is a huge issue for our males today.

to be fair a couple things

to suggest here is almost a given the mom is teaching poor opinion of male cannot be the whole. the fact the father isnt around or experience with lack of father is a strong factor too. and shame on any woman that would use her power as a mother to dengrate a boys gender, ergo their own self esteem.

but i dont know that is so much the reason they are not going into college, though i think it is a huge issue with the gender as a whole

there seems to be a strong push boy embracing stupid and thinking stupid is cool. a very strong social push from so many angles right now towards our boys. that is what i am seeing in the middle schools with my boys.

and as far as the issue with the teachers and lack of male teachers, how that is a negative for the boys and how female teachers tend to enjoy and understand the female students better, ..... a big issue we have recognized in our family the last decade and have had a lot of discussions about.

but then boys dont, arent allowed to use as excuse and understand it is their job to recognize, understand and find a solution, cause ultimately their education and grades are their responsibility.

but.....

i am glad you broguht this up. i was going to bring this up in a post and ended up deleting, talking about exactly these two issues.

[lumberjack_jeff]

315. Absolutely agree. n/t

[seabeyond]

71. inequality can be rough on both parties ... yes, you are right

there are. in a post a little bit up i made exactly that point, .... as a mother and the power i have as a mother and a couple of the things you notice as a son vs daughter i recognize. i have been aware of these and have been able to not only avoid this but discuss with sons so they can recognize these type things too.

but i think that is what the point of all this is. not to feel guilt about them or shame or anything else but to recognize and acknowledge as a truth and that alone is a road to healing. much better than denying or continue the practice

[donheld]

68. K, R & B

[Monk06]

69. I don't think I have to apologize for being male. You can keep your guilt ridden hair shirt. Cheers

[yardwork]

200. Nobody is asking you to apologize or feel guilty for being male.

You might want to consider apologizing for acting like a jerk on this thread.

[Monk06]

219. Ask the others who responded the same way I did to apologiize. BTW I didn't call the OP a jerk.

One of the major impediments to modern feminism
is the attempt of it's adherents to make all men
culpable for the injustices of a male dominated
society.

I am a 58 year old poor white male. I can assure
you I have not enjoyed any privileges at the expense
of any women in my lifetime.

I have, however suffered professionally and economically from
the prejudices and ambitions of so called feminists who don't
like men.

The class guilt that the OP is peddling has the same
political structure and purpose of Maoist orthodoxy;
social oppression and conformity to the idealogical
aims of political cadres.

Those who peddle class guilt are no better than the
Red Guards.

[VotesForWomen]

233. certainly not; nobody said you should. but if you're sexist you should, but probably won't.

[iamthebandfanman]

74. my fav priviledge is

being looked at by every other race and gender as the scum of the earth because of thousands of years of history that i had no association with.

its the cool thing to do you know, dislike white males.

[seabeyond]

75. "thousands of years of history". it isnt done. still happening. so....

are we suppose to not bring up the discriminations and injustices while they are happening because the white male then feels bad. all these things are true and is happening, and as you say has been happening for thousands of years in history.

are we not to mention it or say anything about it or expect it to be acknowledge? because it is spoken about out loud, that is interpreted as cool to dislike white males? all of my family is white male. father, two brothers, husband and two sons. i assure you i love them. and because i discuss this with my white sons does not mean i dislike them. means i want them to be a better person, be aware and not abuse.

[iamthebandfanman]

80. no?

i dont think i was suggesting that either, but, does that make it okay to put down white males?
how does discrimination against white males help discrimination against other races or genders? im confused.

[seabeyond]

84. where are you being put down in this post

what is being stated is a list of advantages that the white male may experience over a female. how is reality a put down? you hsow me where you are being put down and i will be the first person to side beside you. i simply do not aprove of making another less to raise another.

saying in building our young girls confidence today i am seeing a lot of parents and teachers making the males less so the girls will fell strong and empowered. something i actively fight against at every opportunity. and i do see it as an opportunity when i see this happen and i can talk with my kids and those girls, parents, teachers telling them to empower our girls it must NOT be at the expense of our boys or we all lose. this can and must be done where both girl and boy empowered. neither of their power taken from them. then it will be win win win.

[iamthebandfanman]

90. im being put down because its awful broad

how does this person speak for all men ? i started to read his list, but didnt make it past number 2...because i disagree with both.
you dont think theres reverse discrimination occuring out there?
i dont agree with all those views.
i dont have any weight or guilt on my shoulders, im to young. i have no blood on my hands.

i wont be crucified for the works of others. im no martyr.

do i think bigotry still exsists? hell yeah it does.
should all white men be ashamed because of that ? sure would appear that way given some of the replies.


try being the destroyer of earth , the destroyer of life, the destroyer of civilisation for a while. its not fun being sacrificed for a past ill never see (i hope).

[seabeyond]

93. sheeeit, too young? well hell i give it to my kids and they have barely

crawled out of the crib. hmmmmm. well, i have big strong shoulders, i can handle it. and i have taught my kids that they too are capable. in so many areas. part of our gift and responsibility to humanity and a thank you for all we do have with our priviliges. and...... nothing is asked of you. cannot be done. not if you are not willing. dont feel the obligation, responsibility or the blood on hands or weight on shoulder. it is ok. there are others that can do it.

[iamthebandfanman]

96. i only hope

its the people who played a part in keeping people down(in reference to others).

i have had the unfortunate , or fortunate depending on how you look at it, honor of receiving racism directed towards me. i went to a school that was about every 1 in 10-15 students were white. even smaller if u break it down in gender.

ill help you carry it as soon as every other race is absent of racism, until then, good luck with your crusade.
want to blame something or someone for all this persecution ? why not blame humanity as a whole?

[seabeyond]

97. blaming is weak. i dont believe in it. non productive, waste of time, useless. n/t

[bryant69]

77. Dupe!

[bryant69]

78. I'm both white and male. PrivilegesGalore!

Hey I'm also straight. I'll bet that gets me some more privileges. I might drown I got so many damn privileges.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[raccoon]

79. K&R. nt

[seabeyond]

82. i dont get this white male whining. i too am privileged in many ways and recognize it

i dont pretend otherwise. i am white, i am upper income and i was born in the u.s. all advantages to me. when people from other countries are angry at me cause of all my privileges being a u.s. citizen i do not deny, i understand their anger. when those without are angry at all i have, i do not turn around and blame them, i understand their anger. when minorities are angry with me because of my privileges being white, i not only understand, i am angry right there with them. people are angry at christians. i dont say, hey, i didnt do anything. i say, i totally hear ya and feel it is my place do do something within my circle and speak out against because i am christian.

i am also thankful and appreciative that i am who i am, and have what i do and have the privileges that i do. i don't apologize for them or make excuses, feel bad or feel shame. i try to harm no one, and i try to be a good person.

this stuff from the op is fact. it is merely a recognition of reality. i am not angry that it is, but it is. i wouldnt make myself a victim because of it. we all have choices.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. White affluent americans, of either gender are privileged in many ways. n/t

[seabeyond]

91. no shit, that is what i just said, lol lol. so why pretend otherwise

try to excuse, justify or act like it isn't a truth?

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. I just said the opposite of what you said.

I said that compared to the disadvantages of being born in most places in this world, or a minority born here, middle and upper income white americans of both genders do not face meaningful disadvantages.

I am a white man. I have many privileges compared to the native americans in my acquaintance. I do not have meaningful privileges over the white women in my acquaintance. I find 90% of the list provided by the OP to be bullshit built to hide an equally destructive corollary.

[seabeyond]

101. i am a female and saying i have all kinds of advantages being white, american and upper income

where is that the opposite of what you said.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. In a thread dedicated to "raising awareness" of male privilege...

you said that you didn't understand all the "white male whining" in response.

To say that I find your method of agreeing with me confusing, (that gender privilege is minimal or nonexistent compared to race and class privilege) is something of an understatement.

[seabeyond]

110. post #88 was missin a whole lotta stuff. you have to actually say it.....

lol lol.... for me to know it is what you are saying.

geeez

[seabeyond]

121. BUT....

a woman in my position is much more likely to have the husband ditch her at middle age for the new, young and improved model.

the upside..... i am left finacially secure, free, independent and not having to deal with all this male bullshit anymore, wink.

so kinda a little half way teasing.

[VotesForWomen]

169. Black affluent americans, of either gender are privileged in many ways... so racism doesn't exist

i guess, just like sexism doesn't exist. why do you people insist on posting these inane diversions? no one said that wealthy women have no privileges, for christ's sake, the thread is about *gender based* privilege, with all other things taken as equal, but of course you knew that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. Racism does exist, and it manifests itself in powerful and obvious disadvantages.

I live in the northwest, and I can see that Native American men and women are strongly disadvantaged compared to their white peers.

Native American women are not strongly disadvantaged compared to native american men.

I've never been to the south except very briefly, but I suppose the situation is similar for African-americans.

In this country, women in general are not strongly disadvantaged compared to their male racial and socioeconomic peers.

[Karenina]

189. Spoken by a clueless white man.

:eyes: Sorry, Lumberjack. You have neither a point of reference to identify personally with the dynamics nor the incentive to do so. It's no skin off your nose. Better to assume your exnominative voice and rather than considering the points that have merit, denounce it all as an attack against you personally. It's a well-known tactic to stifle discussion. ;-)

[lumberjack_jeff]

210. A well-known discussion tactic, unlike the high-road of name calling?

I have a nearly unique point of reference in discussions of gender relations. I'm a man who doesn't hate himself. Furthermore, I am a stay at home parent and have found that staying home and not working is not a sacrifice.

This is an unusual viewpoint. Some people don't know how to react, so they stereotype.

[Karenina]

214. But somehow you find it within your purview

to speak to the experiences of those with whom you have little to no contact? No one is encouraging you to hate yourself. Why should you? You and your family have been through a LOT and you've made unconventional decisions that serve your best interests. ALL GOOD THINGS to you and yours Jeff! :hug:

However, you seem quite defensive about recognizing the dynamics of the SYSTEM into which we've been acculturated. That resistance blinds you to opening up to the "other" as you continually push away the view from another perspective, even as you LIVE IT.

The recognition of HOW language, privilege and exnomination work are the KEYS to our solidarity. We were never told it would be easy...

[lumberjack_jeff]

215. Thank you for the kind wishes.

I don't think that the OP was intended in the spirit of opening hearts up "to the other". If it was, it missed the mark badly.

I'm not so filled with empathy that I can summon a whole lot of sensitivity, guilt and self-consciousness to the privilege inherent in the observation that my clothes tend to fit, or at least, I tend to buy clothes that fit without regard to the number that is on the tag. When I point out that this isn't my fault, and that I can't really do anything to rectify this kind of abject suffering, I'm told I'm a "typical ignorant and clueless white male" in denial of the magnitude of the problem.

It shouldn't take very much experience with DU to recognize that if I sound defensive, it is with some justification. I don't ever go to FR, but if I did, I would anticipate that the dialog will be as much composed of stereotype as DU is - just different stereotypes. If I were a woman on FR, I suspect I'd react about the way I do here as a man.

[VotesForWomen]

234. the manifestations of sexism and racism are different, but to suggest as you did that sexism essenti

essentially doesn't exist is the height of willful ignorance. let's see, when i showed up for a job on a worksite, and the first thing out of the guy in charge's mouth was "We don't need any women here; this ain't no little shovel and broom job," that wasn't sexism? i could go on, but like i said, willful ignorance.

[lumberjack_jeff]

314. I've been spoken harshly to on jobsites as well. I didn't like it either.

Nevertheless, it's a good story.

What is willful ignorance is continuing to pretend that men and women in the same jobs, with the same education, who work the same hours, have the same experience, and are equally willing to do the unpleasant tasks (like overtime and travel) don't get paid the same. Today, it's a myth.

Don't take it from me, take it from the AAUW and Institute for Women’s Policy Research. You will have to dig through their findings to get to the bottom-line however, because their goal wasn't really to find this. It was to create a conventional wisdom which says something different.

This is not the case for minorities. If I'm going to channel my energies into helping people, it'll be directed toward people who actually are disadvantaged.

[VotesForWomen]

328. O.M.G. case closed. how many times have you been spoken harshly to about your *gender* by a boss,

who suggested that s/he may not give you the job because you are male???!!!!!! i have been spoken harshly to by other people on plenty of other subjects; none of which has a damn thing to do with this thread. i repeat, you are willfully ignorant, and i strongly dispute your 'statistics.'

[lumberjack_jeff]

329. A) they're not "my statistics" they are from the group which purports to advance your interests

B) If the "little shovel" crack rendered you incapable of function, then you would not thrive on a jobsite. Those that can put up with the myriad discomforts of construction get paid more. There are a lot of people who would like to get paid to pet puppies. There are few who want to get paid to kill cows. Thus, killing cows pays better.
C) The VP of sales to whom I reported at one of my last jobs was about as hard-nosed a woman as I've ever met. Amid the helpful advice, she frequently made derogatory gender-based comments. Did it occasionally hurt my feelings? Yes. Did I benefit by letting it roll off my back? Yes. I learned more about sales and customer service from her than anyone else before or since. She understood that the workplace wasn't always pleasant and we were there to do our damn jobs. I respected her a great deal.

[VotesForWomen]

334. alright dude, you win. i'm sorry. there is no sexism, or if there is, it's anti-male. nt

[Solly Mack]

85. Thanks!

I once had a white male tell me "We (meaning white males) were the ones that allowed women and minorities the right to vote", as a way of explaining how good white males have been to "others"

He never once saw anything wrong with his statement...

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlertLurker]

89. What a steaming pile of stewed fewmets.

This kind of garbage makes me ashamed to be a woman.

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. No one should feel ashamed to be a woman or a man.

We are what we are, we do what we can, we try to improve ourselves.

Broad brushes are imprecise tools.

[VotesForWomen]

170. wow, i bet men love you, don't they? nt

[AlertLurker]

339. I have no idea. Nor do I care. It's completely irrelevant.

The only man whose love actually matters to me worships the ground I walk on. It's very nice that I feel exactly the same about him, too.

[Sparkly]

94. 6a. And I'll be paid more.

:thumbsup:

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. Yes, commercial fishing pays reasonably well. n/t

[gollygee]

95. I just don't get this - I have no problem seeing a White Privilege Checklist and acknowledging

that I have privilege. I don't get offended that anyone would dare point it out. I don't understand why some men get offended by seeing the privileges they have as men written out. Most of us have some kind of privilege or another. It's nothing to be defensive about - by definition it is something that happens without you making it happen, and that happens whether you want it to or not.

[Sparkly]

100. Thank you -- I just skimmed some of the replies and the defensiveness is odd to me.

I guess people feel guilty? Why else would they see this as accusing THEM of something?

I don't think that if I saw a checklist of the privileges I've had (based on race for example) I'd feel attacked.

:shrug:

(Edit: Another one -- weight! Some obese people describe continuous and severe discrimination. It's just a fact, and knowing it raised my awareness, not my defenses!)

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. White men, like me, are privileged by being white.

It is a reality that we should be aware of and work to correct.

To say that we're privileged by virtue of our gender is, to be charitable, much less obvious.

[seabeyond]

111. even my old fashon, corporate, business ownin republican father knows their is gender discrimination

he has been running corporate business and has owned business for four decades and we have had many conversations about it. something he is aware of and ergo has been able to nip in the bud when he sees it and has something to be proud of. but then as an employer he has always been respected and admired because he is a fair and just kinda guy.

now ask him if he wants a female president and it would be no way...... but at least in the business world he is A o.k.

so many things on this list. being taught to be fearful and cautious walking at night, religion being pro male.... so many things, you are saying it is not true?

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Out of every 10 college graduates this year,

The six women will be paid the same (or more) than the four men (assuming they seek the same jobs).

Your dad sounds like a good business person, (and a conscientious parent), but the situation on the ground has changed in the last 20 years. The conventional wisdom has yet to catch up.

[seabeyond]

117. i guess on that we will have to agree to disagree jack.... but then i live in the panhandle

of texas. i dont know where you are. but..... i know we have not caught up to where you are talking. there are 46 things on this list and the pay was merely one. are you suggesting oh all of it is wrong. half. a quarter. or most is a reality. withstanding equal pay.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. I found two or three with which I agree.

Religions are run by men, and men have an easier time with "the grooming regimen".

Other than those - nope.

I can see points #27, #36, #37. Other than that, the OP is wholly without merit.

[seabeyond]

122. you are wrong. there is no diplomatic way of saying it

then again, you not having walked in my shoes.... you dont know, you just dont. this is an opportunity for you to look and maybe understand a little. but then to just say, nope women, you do not experience this, really allows you to stay in your comfort zone.

you are just wrong

now, i know there are advantages to being woman and female. it is something my sons and i have looked into. it is something i will bring up and talk to husband about, to make sure i understand, not from my point of view, but his.... the male.

i think many of the things are a reality on the list, not big deals, just is. and it is my job to deal with them appropriately

it isnt a woe is me kinda thing

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. The OP wasn't wearing your shoes, it was predicated on wearing mine.

I'm right.

So there.

;)

[seabeyond]

136. lmao.....

no really. lmao. open the post.... and..... just cute.

[VotesForWomen]

173. wow, Clueless, thy name is white male. honey, if you don't think you're privileged by being male

you are being willfully ignorant.

[lumberjack_jeff]

174. If I told you which stereotypes fit you

I'd be a fool to call you ignorant when you disagree.

Err, honey.

As an aside, what assumptions might you be tempted to make about me if my nickname was "VotesForMen"?

[VotesForWomen]

235. well, if men were denied the right to vote, i would be the first to support "VotesForMen." you know

of course, that "votes for women" was a slogan of the suffragettes who fought to gain a voice for women in the government which claimed authority over their lives. "VotesForWomen" is simply a tribute to the great women who have brought all of us a little bit closer to equality in this country. you don't have any problem with equality, do you?

[Triana]

129. Thank You...

...like another poster pointed out, I don't get defensive when a list of privileges I have as a white hetero are listed. The truth is the truth. I don't feel 'blamed' for that and don't feel any need to be defensive.

SOME men are terribly insecure, I think. Nice to see that there are some exceptions. :)

[VotesForWomen]

171. i think it's easier for whites to acknowlege white privilege because most white people don't have in

intimate relationships with black people, in which the 'privilege' could be rubbed in their face on a daily basis so to speak. even though male privilege is as undeniable as the sky being blue, what guy wants his wife, girlfriend, mother, sister, female coworkers, etc. being aware of it, hulding a grudge against him, throwing it in his face etc. i'm not saying that would happen, because i think that most women don't care about the past as much the present and future, and if a guy demonstrates a good faith effort to treat women as equals, he doesn't have to worry about the 'gender privilege' card being played.

[iamthebandfanman]

98. for the record

ive been not hired before because i was a male.
i was seeking a desk job. consisted mostly of re-typing things and filing. standard office work. i can type over 100 words a min and went to college for 2 years in a computer related field. got beat out by a young woman straight outa high school. either she had lots of friends on the inside, or someone wanted a woman working the front desk.

[SidDithers]

103. "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam"...

Sid

[The Backlash Cometh]

113. Thank you. I appreciate your sincerity.

Now expect to be attacked for being an Alan Alda powder puff liberal, just because you're self-aware.

[leftofthedial]

114. the list is NOT accurate, because it is written in first person

Many of the the items do not apply to me personally, unless, for example, you include unemployment as a job and you blame atheists for the religious insanity of others.

I've been grotesquely discriminated AGAINST on many occasions specifically because I am male. I worked as the only male in a small woman-owned company at which the stereotypical tables described above were turned. As a male, I was discriminated against in my divorce, both monetarily and in regards to custody of my children.

The OP, by ascribing selected negative characteristics to all members of a group, is classically sexist and bigoted.

[PeaceNikki]

118. The OP in no way ascribed negative characteristics to all members of a group

At all.

And if that's what you get out of it, it's sad.

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. Stereotype: n

stereotype

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

Using the qualifiers "most" "on average" and "more likely" do not mitigate.

[PeaceNikki]

128. Gee, thanks, Webster!

:wtf:

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. I find intriguing how vitally, earth-shatteringly important this topic is...

... right up until someone disagrees.

Then, it becomes farce.

At least those who think the topic of equality is farcical all the time are being consistent, if no less predictable.

[PeaceNikki]

133. And I find it patronizing and disingenuous when someone copies and pastes a dictionary definition of

a single word.

So there.

[leftofthedial]

138. in response to a specific denial that the OP list is a stereotype.

so there.

[cgrindley]

237. Perhaps you should try, therefore, to have a better vocabulary

then people wouldn't school so often in the obvious.

[PeaceNikki]

240. Are you basing your assessment of my linguistic shortcomings on a single post?

Is it a defensive mechinism because we seem to disagree? Or is it based on the fact that I'm female?

I'm sure it was cathartic for you to hurl that in my direction. I hope you feel better. :hug:

[cgrindley]

241. Well... you did seem unfamiliar with a pretty common word

the OP is guilty of grotesque stereotyping. If the same post was aimed at women, the poster would be tombstoned and you know it. For you to claim that the OP wasn't stereotyping was either disingenuous or a trademark of someone who really did have a very poor vocabulary. I have no idea why you would want to be willfully obtuse on such a simple and obvious example of disgusting broadbrushing of an entire gender.

[seabeyond]

242. let me ask

a man doesnt have to worry about rape.
how does that broadbrush a whole gender? how is that anti male or male hating per your post below?

religion are pro male
how is that going after male?

a man doesnt have to deal with sexual harrassment.
again, tell me, how is that going after male?

[cgrindley]

244. That's really offensive

1. go to hell... how can you repeat a lie with a straight face unless you're actually bigoted against men?

2. irrational (saying that religions are pro male is like saying that Nazism is pro white--it's not an argument for anything. all religions are false and fucked)

3. go to hell... how can you repeat a lie with a straight face unless you're actually bigoted against men?

[seabeyond]

247. whats the lie. women are raped. men are not raped.

look, i am being as simplistic as i can possibly be. asking really simple questions. you accuse, and i ask where. then you get mad that i ask where.

is it because i didnt leave open the bit of rape to men, like when they are in prison? is that a lie

[cgrindley]

248. Why don't you educate yourself?

http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html

[seabeyond]

249. to suggest men equally face rape is pathetic.

children is a whole different issue.

you have answered my questions.

[cgrindley]

253. How fucking dare you

you just fucking well minimized child sexual abuse because you're unhappy with the statistics? fuck you.

"children is a whole different issue. "

fuck you

[seabeyond]

256. i fucking dare

pedophilla is a whole other issue, than the forever happening rape of women by men.

saying it is a whole different issue is not saying it is any less significant, disgusting, or outrageous.

[cgrindley]

268. listen

logically, this is what you did:

excluding the American South, there is little racism in America.

[seabeyond]

274. there is little racism in America.... i disagree with you on this also.

i think that we had been evolving and progressing on both racism and sexism for a couple decades though it was still there, just more subtle. but today i think not only is it still here but has taken a giant step forward in loud and in our face.

people pretending it isnt there, ergo not addressing it is part of what has allowed it to raise its ugly head again, and the continual pretending it isnt..... will just take longer to bury again..... for the next time it pops out its head

wont ever die.

wont ever go away

we can only make it socially unacceptable. but people like you pretending it isnt is at least as much if not more of the problem.

[cgrindley]

287. What's wrong with your reading comprehension?

Jesus. Anyone care to explain my post to seabeyond? This is too hilarious.

[seabeyond]

294. it wasnt clear and since you believe men are raped as much as women i figured you believed

there was no racism either, and thinking it is just the south. i dont think that is too far fetched with your reasoning to date.

but...

wit what you were trying to convey in that unclear post of yours..... no.... what i am saying is not comparative to your racism only in the south

[cgrindley]

299. It's pointless

My posts are not hard to follow, but if English isn't your first anguage, I apologize.

[seabeyond]

277. there is little racism in America.... i disagree with you on this also.

i think that we had been evolving and progressing on both racism and sexism for a couple decades though it was still there, just more subtle. but today i think not only is it still here but has taken a giant step forward in loud and in our face.

people pretending it isnt there, ergo not addressing it is part of what has allowed it to raise its ugly head again, and the continual pretending it isnt..... will just take longer to bury again..... for the next time it pops out its head

wont ever die.

wont ever go away

we can only make it socially unacceptable. but people like you pretending it isnt is at least as much if not more of the problem.

[VotesForWomen]

335. you might add that rapists are usually men. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

290. This topic is ill-served by turning into a flame war. n/t

[cgrindley]

295. I totally agree

What I don't understand is why some people want to utterly discount sexual assault when it is committed against men and boys. Sexual assault is NOT an issue that only affects women. Men who have been assaulted (either as adults or children) have lived in shame and with ridicule for too long. I'm not going to tolerate some of these posters who just don't get it... but... I guess you're right. A flame war won't help as my opponents really do not seem to be arguing in good faith.

[PeaceNikki]

243. And you really put me in my place, big guy!

Puff your chest out and beat on it a bit.

[cgrindley]

245. So you respond again with outright disgusting sexism?

wow. that's really fucked up.

[readmoreoften]

178. So, are you ever afraid to go out to talk business at bars with male sales clients

because they might try to sexually assault you and if something happened it would probably be considered your fault?

No. But I'm sure you'll make up some kind of nonsense to justify your response.

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. Have you ever had a conversation with a person...

who asks a rhetorical question, then answers it with a preemptive put-down intended to prevent you from responding?

Me either.

[readmoreoften]

232. I wasn't really trying to have a conversation. /nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

330. That much is apparent. n/t

[leftofthedial]

135. that you deny this kind of list is intended to describe "all men"

is sad.

[PeaceNikki]

140. It's not describing men at all. It's pointing out some things that women deal with.

It's not all about you personally, you know?

I'm sorry you got screwed in your divorce. I was abused in my marriage. And my child was abandoned by his father. Some men get screwed some and some do the screwing. We all have a sob story. Mine doesn't mean all men suck and yours doesn't mean all women do.

The OP was pointing out a lot of very specific things that women deal with that men (from a general perspective) do not. I am not sure why some have become so very defensive over it. Nobody ever said ALL (or even most) men are guilty of these things. They are just things that DO happen in varying degrees to women.

[leftofthedial]

151. "The MALE Privelege Checklist"

"I" get this alleged stereotypical advantage, "my" experience includes that stereotypical deferential treatment . . .

For you to claim this is "not describing men at all" is disingenuous at best. It is unequivocally and unambiguously a list of stereotypes about men. I recognize that in our culture, women are underpaid. I recognize that in our country males hold a grossly disproportionate number of powerful positions. I recognize that most of the religious underpinnings of our culture are patriarchal at best and misogynistic at worst. I don't dispute that women should be treated better in many ways in our culture. I work every day to help our culture overcome its prejudices and bigotry. I don't believe all women suck.

This particular list though includes items that are purely (and textbook!) stereotypical, are not applicable to millions of men and which are highly and sensationally selective. It omits the disadvantages men have in our culture (divorce is one clear area, expectation to be the "breadwinner" is another) and is framed to be as prejudicial as possible. The use of first person ("I" and "me/my") means that *every* man who reads the list stands accused of sexism and is alleged to receive the treatment described in the list regardless of whether it actually applies to him or not. This is anti-male bigotry pure and simple. If it was a "BLACK Checklist" and included such items as "I am more likely to be in prison" or "My academic test scores are lower" it could NOT be more bigoted.

This is not a list of what "women deal with." That list would be a "FEMALE Checklist" and would talk about the ways in which women are treated badly. It is not a list of unfair SOCIETAL male privilege. That list would not be written in first person and would be clearly general and statistical in nature.

[gollygee]

146. It isn't describing men. It's describing society.

Our society gives men privileges, whether or not the men know it, and whether or not the men want those privileges. Just like our society gives white people, people without disabilities, straight people, attractive people, thin people, wealthy people, etc., privileges whether or not they know it, and whether or not they want those privileges.

[leftofthedial]

152. your subject is patently, literally and emotionally not true.

see my reply above.

[gollygee]

156. It is absolutely true

This isn't a list of things men do to women. It is a list of ways our society as a whole, men and women, value men more than women. I've heard women say they aren't comfortable with women doctors, hate to have to work for or with other women, etc. Our society as a whole gives men these privileges.

[leftofthedial]

183. read the damned subject line;

then contemplate the effect of using first person throughout the list

it is about MEN, directed at MEN

[gollygee]

185. It is about men as the objects of the privilege

Men receive this privilege

Obviously it is directed at men because it is an attempt to illustrate to men what privileges they have by virtue of being men.

[VotesForWomen]

336. almost all men enjoy male privilege; doesn't mean that all men are sexist, though. nt

[negativenihil]

116. every time this sort of thread comes up...

all i can think about is the hilarious scene from the simpsons.

TV Announcer: And now, the Estrogen Network presents... Afternoon Yak.
Meredith Viera: Men--
Audience: Boo!
Homer: Cancelled!

[Throd]

124. The lines are shorter to pee at a public event!

[IronLionZion]

137. Bwahaha!

That's one of my favorite privileges. Plus, I get to stand up to pee, so if there are no toilets somewhere (think outside the USA), it's not as big a problem for me.

[IronLionZion]

139. When was this written and how much of it is still relevant?

That's a question not a statement.

[cgrindley]

142. It reads like it was written in 1972

fuck. Where do people dig up this antique bullshit?

[gollygee]

145. Here's a link to the blog where it was originally written

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

It's based on a "White Privilege Checklist" that was written in 1990, but it's more recent than that, though I'm not sure just how much more recent.

[cgrindley]

157. Seems to have some misandrist crap on there

the child support one is particularly offensive.

[gollygee]

158. I'm not familiar with the blog, I just googled

and read that was the original source.

[cgrindley]

141. That's stupid and offensive

Hollow, facile and ill-educated semantics do not a coherent argument make, sunshine. What fucking decade were born in? What fucking decade do you live in? Do you even work? Do you have any experience in the real world?

1,3,8,9,10,11,12,13,15,16,17,18,22,25,26,27,29,30,31,32,38,39,40,42,43,44,45 are patently untrue

and fuck you for 46.

[IronLionZion]

147. Link to lots more privilege lists

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/09/26/a-list-of-privilege-lists/

I didn't realize I was so privileged!

[zorahopkins]

150. I Am A Woman Who Was Fired

I am a woman who was fired by a vindictive male boss.

I complained about my boss -- his harrassement, his creation of a hostile work place, his threats, his rantings.

What good did it do?

NOTHING!

The sad thing is that many of the higher-ups in the organization I worked for were also women, and they supported and encouraged my boss.

Men can often count on women who sell-out other women.

[Matariki]

159. I got fired once for calling out a former boss for staring at women's breasts when he talked to them

Female employees and customers alike. And he made no attempt to be subtle about it either.

But I was fired for pointing it out.

[zorahopkins]

176. I Appealed My Firing To The EEOC

I appealed my firing to the EEOC, on the grounds that I had been removed because of my gender (and age and national origin).

The bureaucracy involved was just terrible!

I still never got my job back.

[noamnety]

196. One of my bosses refused to hire a woman

because he saw in her files that she had previously filed a complaint with the EEOC under a different boss.

[zorahopkins]

213. During Most Of My Career, I Was Paid Less

During most of my career, I was paid less than men who were doing the same job I was.

It got especially bad as I got older.

The organization hired younger (than me) men and made them my supervisors. They came into the job without knowing what to do.

BUT -- they got paid MORE than I did.

The man who fired me had testified on behalf of the organzation we both worked for in a huge discrimination suit brought by several women. The organization lost, but, in order to reward this man, the organization promoted him to be my supervisor.

He harassed, belittled, and abused me. I complained, but no one -- not even the other women in my organization -- stood up for me.

I got fired by this man.

[noamnety]

216. I didn't stand up for the other woman either

I was a single parent, not getting any child support, and I had no other job prospects - my experience was in the military, and this was a civilian job for the military. Knowing my boss (a LTC) wouldn't hire someone with an EEO complaint made me feel like it wouldn't be too smart for me to file an EEO complaint about that.

I feel like a schmuck for that now. If I were in the same position again with a dependent, I honestly don't know what I'd do.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that, and that people like me didn't stand up for you when they should have.

[VotesForWomen]

236. yep; women are their own worst enemy, many times. nt

[raccoon]

269. Often they are, and a lot of that has to do with the politics of power.

Similar to the way in attempted slave revolts, another slave is the one who rats out those planning revolt.

[libodem]

155. it is so interwoven into

western civilization it isn't readily apparent.

[JerseygirlCT]

161. 37 - not really the case anymore - especially in the US

Though I take your point, and appreciate it.

[seabeyond]

162. bah hahaha. you don't live in the religious belt do you. inevitably

when with my hubby talking about oh.... decision making issues, the man will look over me to my husband even when it is me asking the question. i dont know how many times, with the private school, having work done on the house, buying cars, banking issues, i ask a question and the man looks past me to answer my husband. hubby just smiles.... he cannot believe there would be men stupid enough to do it, but they do.

[JerseygirlCT]

163. No, I don't. But truly the fundamentalist - wife-submitting types of

Christian denominations don't reflect anything near most of US Christianity. Ditto to very Orthodox Judaism and very conservative Islam. The mainstream doesn't go for that - but the louder few get noticed more I suppose.

My husband simply corrects people when they look to him to answer a question better addressed to me. Or when they ask why I keep my own name, or any of that silly stuff. He's good that way!

[seabeyond]

166. i am from calif. moved to panhandle of texas. i did not know this world existed

but.... in this area more so than not.

[JerseygirlCT]

168. Well, certainly there are areas like that, unfortunately

And I'm sorry you find yourself in one of them!

[noamnety]

284. It's not even just the fundies.

One of my friends was videotaping a group of strangers standing outside, and interviewing them about a march that was going past, and about hurricane damage they'd suffered. He was the one who noticed this, not me, (and it says a lot about him that he was self-aware enough to realize this afterwards and admit this) but when he watched the tape afterwards, he saw that he'd directed all his questions to the one man in the group.

[seabeyond]

285. wow, isnt that interesting and there you go. not hard. not painful.

nothing. just awareness of who we are. hm..... thanks for sharing. now i kinda want to experiment with it, lol cause i find interaction not only interesting and a revelation but part of growth. go figure

[VotesForWomen]

165. don't you know you're not supposed to talk about that stuff; it's not lady-like. nt

[otherlander]

175. I don't think 16 is really true.

Or 18, so much.
27 is true for me and I'm female.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the word 'shrew' to describe a person. It kind of sounds like a 1950's word.
38, 39, and 40 are only true if you have a girlfriend/wife with a willingness to take shit. Plenty of women wouldn't put up with that kind of shit.
41: It's not just men who are sexually attracted to women. Really.
44: ???

But other than that, pretty good list.

[noamnety]

202. Documentation for #16

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

This doesn't JUST refer to your parents. It includes teacher responses to active children. Teachers - often without even realizing it - are more likely to correct slightly aggressive behavior in girls, and correct passive behavior in boys. Passive girls are considered well-behaved, while the boys are treated as if there is something wrong with them. I've seen that even in responses given by other teachers in my masters' program, with teachers - current ones (!) - talking about needing to train the girls to act like "little ladies."

It also includes the role models we get through the media. Watch Mickey Mouse Monopoly if you want to see some good examples of highly gendered passive role models for girls and active roles for men. It's available in sections through youtube. Actually, you can just watch this short clip from Peter Pan to get an idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnFABHlw-U8

In addition to that, studies have shown that parents do react differently to infants based on gender. There was a study in the late 70's, which showed that when a mother was presented with a 6 month old to play with - regardless of the actual gender of the child - if they were told the baby was a boy, they selected toys that encourage large motor skills, and they were more likely to mirror back to the child those large skills, reinforcing it in the baby's mind. (Smith and Lloyd, 1978).

23 studies in the decade after that, all the way up to 1989, which brings us up to when my child was a child, they found the same gendered parenting styles persisted. (Stern and Karraker, 1989). So if you were born before 1989 at least, 16 is true for your generation. I haven't seen the more recent research, but I have no reason to think that's been reversed, or even equalized. And, like I said, the media and teachers continue to reinforce it nowadays, even if some very enlightened parents have progressed beyond that point.

[noamnety]

203. Documentation for #18

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).


"The AAUW Report: How Schools Shortchange Girls (1992) is a startling examination of how girls in grades K-12 receive an inferior education to boys in America's schools. Among other results, the report reveals that girls receive less attention in the classroom than boys;"


http://www.aauw.org/research/schoolsShortchange.cfm

As someone working on my master's in education, I've read a fair amount of research on that topic. Not only do they get less attention, but when they receive positive feedback, the type of feedback they receive is typically very different from what boys receive. Boys get more feedback on their abilities. (You did a great job on this project). Girls get more positive attention for looks - even from teachers. (You look nice today.)

One of my professors, in fact, suggested to the class that if you have female students, you can get them to behave better if you compliment their looks as they walk in the room. I was the only one who spoke out against that, which was almost as disturbing as the fact that she even went there.

[noamnety]

204. Explanation of 41

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

You can amend that, if you want to be less heteronormative, to: "Odds are magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad people intended to appeal to me sexually."

Statistically, which is what discussions of privilege center around (because there are always exceptions but they don't disprove the culture), if you are a man, you are more likely to be bombarded with images of naked/barely clothed people designed to appeal to you sexually. And you are less likely to be portrayed as a mindless sex object with a vacant stare.

[treestar]

186. Thanks for number 44!

Being a woman, I hate that one!

:rofl:

[noamnety]

228. just for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2842367#2844336

[Firespirit]

197. As a woman I agree with all except #24

Maybe it is a generational thing, but in Gen X and Y, it's far, far worse to be sexually inexperienced. And try being a 25-y.o. bisexual virgin (by most people's definition). You'd not believe some of the crap I've heard.

[gollygee]

199. You can't win either way

Either you're not sexually experienced enough, or you're too sexually experienced. I don't think "just right" even exists.

[Firespirit]

201. It doesn't!

Guys my age and slightly older are frightened away... I guess they think I'm either a fundie, a castrating man-hater, or a "loser who can't get laid." If I mention I've had experience with my own sex, they dismiss it as "fooling around." Apparently unless you're a full-on lesbian, you can't have a legitimate attraction to women, and I've noticed that many lesbians in my generation see it that way too. It's aggravating.

[lumberjack_jeff]

206. Okay, this deserves the point-by-point treatment

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
Probably? The footnotes say that ALL the items on this list have a factual basis. If it has a factual basis, then it's reasonable to demand a citation.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).
If you happen to work on a commercial fishing vessel, or as a logger, or as a coal miner, you can be sure that you are there because of your sex.

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
Unless you work for this person or her like-minded peers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2844889&mesg_id=2847143

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
Men aren't socialized to think what is best for their gender. It would never occur to us. However, as a stay-at-home dad, I am always aware of how my ability to parent is scrutinized by school officials.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
What qualifies as sexual harassment is often humor when the genders are switched.


6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
Speaking of subjective...

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).
If you can stay out of prison? Good point. Men are much more likely to face jail time for the same offense.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
True. Because if I'm walking alone, I won't have to protect my female companion.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Perhaps not, but my maturity definitely is.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
If I have children and choose to provide primary care as opposed to financial care, I most certainly will be.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).
Bullshit. Take it from someone who knows something about the topic.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
True enough. They'll think I'm selfish if I *do* stay at home. A workplace expectation exists that overtime can't be demanded of working moms.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
Hogwash. Exhibit #1 Caroline Giuliani. Exhibit #2 Patti Davis.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
My state representative: Lynne Kessler. My US Senators: Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell. My Governor: Christine Gregoire. My choice for President: Hillary Clinton. The first person clearly does not always work.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
When I ask to see "the person in charge" it's usually in the context of my children's school. It's always a woman.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).
A girl growing up today is 50% more likely than her brother to go to college. Boys are encouraged to play sports instead.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
I was a child in the 60's and 70's. "Were" is not germane to policy today.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).
Attention? Much like inner city blacks get the attention of the police. Boys are seen as disruptive and as a result, the typical boy is a year and a half behind the typical girl in reading and writing.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
Whether or not I need to is a different question than asking whether or not it is.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
You're suggesting that the media has carefully hidden women? Really? No Women on TV?

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
Frequently it is, and furthermore, a man who fails in his financial life is perceived to be less attractive.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
Yeah, right. Obviously the writer doesn't have any teenage boys for whom he is paying auto insurance.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
Again with the gender affinity. A man who acts like an idiot does reflect badly on men. Witness this very thread.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).
Of course there is, and unlike women who sleep with a lot of men, there's an additional financial risk.

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).
No, a man only worries about the message his wardrobe sends about his power, intelligence, wealth and the attraction those attributes convey.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).
I wear carhartts. They come in womens sizes.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).
That's true.

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).
I don't get offered a price. I make the offer, it is up to the seller to accept or reject that offer. Anyone who doesn't understand that buy/sell dynamic has more problems than gender could explain.

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
If I'm not unconventionally wealthy, it takes a great deal of conventional attractiveness to compensate.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
No, they call loud aggressive men assholes. Shrew seems tame.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
Ever hear of "the Violence against Men act"? Me either. Violence against men is only a crime, in fact it's only wrong to the extent that the degree of violence qualifies as assault. Even despite the lower bar as to what qualifies as criminal, men are more than 50% more likely to be the victim of a violent crime
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/vsxtab.htm

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
Okay. I hadn't really thought of this a materially important part of my privilege.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
Conversely, if I were to murder my children, I wouldn't escape the death penalty on the basis of post partum psychosis. There's a schizophrenic quality to this issue: If women are less culpable for their crimes because of their vulnerability to biology, when is this consideration off limits?

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
Questioned? You mean like Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton?

35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
No, it's made on the presumption that your role is breadwinner and that you'll take all the overtime you're given, whether or not you'd rather be parenting.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
I agree with this.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
One of the reasons I'm agnostic.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).
How about the bills?

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.
A person like me who is lucky enough to be the stay-at-home parent takes the bad with the good.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
Why is not working "a sacrifice"? They call it "work" for a reason.

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
Men and women are manipulated to purchase based on what appeals to the reptilian part of their brains. If scantily clad men influenced women to purchase products, you'd see 'em.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).
I don't think this is true, but most men don't obsess about their body image, so it could be and I don't care.

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).
Incredibly? Between 38-50% of domestic violence victims are men. In 1996, the National Violence against Women survey asked 8000 men and 8000 women if they'd ever been the victim of rape or physical assault by their current or a former spouse. 1.5% of women and 0.9% of men said yes. Thus, women are 60% more likely to report themselves victims of spousal abuse than men. "Incredibly"? Depends on your definition.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).
Somebody hangs out in an area with strange strangers.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
:rofl:

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
Personally, I have the privilege and the blessing of the analytic skill to observe that it's overstated.

[guitar man]

209. hmmm, let's see

....if any of these apply to me personally. I know it's supposed to be a broad based list, but just for fun, let's see how male privelege has treated me personally ;)

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

Maybe in the past and I wasn't aware of it, but on my current job, the opposite was true when it came time for me to be promoted. The next step up the ladder from where I was took me into a division of the company that is dominated by women and they were running a pretty tight knit club. If my first name wasn't Leslie, I might not have gotten the job. :D

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).

some of my co-workers joke that I'm one of the "token males" in my division of the company


3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

right now it would be because everyone above me is holding on to their jobs for dear life


4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

True dat, if I fail, I'm just another garden variety loser


5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

True....I wish I could get harassed every once in a while though....:evilgrin:



6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

Not at this company....see #1


7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

Agreed, women are more susceptible to attack unfortunately.


8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

That's because I'm a bad mutha :D


9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

maybe not, but my mother hounded me relentlessly for 20 years until we finally did


10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

no, but my wife would make my life a living hell if I didn't...trust me on this one



11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

yeah, right. "marginally compotent" to her just don't cut it. Again, big redhead woman makes gtrman's life a living hell. In fact, she's got the edge here. If she puts baby down for a nap in just a diaper, she's got the reasons and excuses all worked out. If I do the same, I get my ass chewed out. I'm getting screwed by a double standard on this one. :(


12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

Agreed



13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

since I've never run for office, I'll refrain on this one


14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Agreed

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

lately, when I've asked for the person in charge, I have wound up being put on perpetual hold by someone overseas :(


16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

haha, you don't know my sisters....especially the youngest one.Outgoing is quite the understatement


17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

you mean comic books? yeah, just about all of the heroes were male...but I really dug Wonder Woman :thumbsup:



18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

In my small rural school, the kids that got the most attention belonged to the families that owned the most around those parts. Male or female, money ruled the day


19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

Agreed



20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

I always seem to turn it on in the morning right when "The View" comes on :rofl:


21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

no, I just get called a dumbass for that one :D



22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

true...but I do pay a higher insurance rate


23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

I can't speak to large groups, scares the crap out of me...but I can play guitar and sing to them like crazy. :headbang:


24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

Agreed. the double standard fell on our side of the line on this one

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

Oh yeah? you ought to see my cute little butt in these jeans :evilgrin:

and I disagree about the gender conformity part. A woman could put on the jeans I'm wearing without a second thought, but if I were to walk down the street in a dress, I'd damn sure be called to question in people's minds about gender conformity.


26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

most of my clothing makes people look for the cup to drop a quarter in :rofl:

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

True,mostly we just wash, comb and go, but for us wire-bearded types, shaving can be a real bitch



28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

Interesting, haven't tested this one yet, I'll remember next time we car shop and see what happens...should be enlightening.


29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

oh really? I disagree, looks can be everything whether you're a man or woman. I know back when I was single I got shot out of the saddle more than a few times by much better looking guys than me.



30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

I believe the common term for a male is "obnoxious asshole"

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

that's something that really should be addressed in the political arena, crime should be crime no matter what sex is the victim.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

never really thought of that as a privelege, I could care less what they're called

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

True, I get questioned constantly about that stuff no matter what time of the month it is :rofl:

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

True. I told my wife before we were married to do as she wished in that regard, never pressured her to take my name

35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

True

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

Fuck religion, it's responsible for 99.9% of the problems in the world today IMO

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

once again, fuck religion

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

on what planet?

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

trust me, I've changed hundreds or maybe thousands of dirty diapers over the last 25 months, washed my fair share of baby clothes, put suppositories in her butt when she was sick etc etc. done it all. Now a lot of my friends might refer to me as "superdad" but dammit, I earned that one. And her mom still doesn't cut me any slack

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

I'd drop mine in a hot minute and stay home with baby girl if she lands a job paying in the ballpark of what I'm making...in a heartbeat

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

yeah, and they always way too skinny women....I want to see some meat on dem bones:evilgrin:

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

true...except from my mom, she's always ragging my brother and I both about our weight

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

you haven't met Mrs Gtrman, have you? :scared: :D

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

True...they usually just look right through me like I'm not there :(


45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

once again,you haven't met Mrs Gtrman, have you? Her mom once said she would probably interrupt the rapture:rofl: :rofl:


46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

I'm unaware that life has just handed me a shitload of priveleges. I've been comical in most of my responses, but about this, I'm dead serious. Just because I'm a white male, doors of opportunity haven't flown open for me with a bunch of execs to greet me and hand me the key to the executive washroom, penthouse suite and company limo. I'm just the son of a common long-haul trucker from a common family without a lot of money and it's been a goddamn hard-knock life for me for a lot of my 44 year journey in this world. When I was homeless back in the mid-80s and living on the street in a junky van, nobody gave a damn what my sex or color was, Reaganomics was an equal opportunity destroyer for a lot of people. You want to really look at privelege these days, follow the money, especially the inherited kind.I had to fight my way out of there and have fought every day since to keep from going back there. No handouts and precious little help along the way, just rolling out of bed at 5:30am one day at a time and working my ass off. If that's undue privelege, that's a new one on me

Have a great day :)

[yardwork]

218. GTRMAN......I love you.

And I'm a lesbian, so no, I don't mean that I'm trying to take you away from Mrs. GTRMAN (I wouldn't dare anyway - I trust you about her!). You've made some very good points.

Privilege usually accompanies money.

[guitar man]

250. *blushes*

:blush:

thanks for the positive response. I was worried about my closing remarks, that I may have worded it a bit too coarsely. But I had spent Sunday afternoon, evening and into the night underneath the wife's car in freezing cold weather with grease,oil, antifreeze and blood running down my arms and dripping into my face trying to fix it because I can't afford to take it to the shop and can't afford to replace it

So I wound up going to bed Sunday night about 11:45 and got up at5:30 to make the 100 mile commute to work. Somehow, I just wasn't feeling very "priveleged" yesterday after all that.

:hi:

[yardwork]

261. Understandable! Sometimes we forget that as Democrats we're supposed to be on the same side.

:hi:

[guitar man]

266. sometimes?

what was it Will Rogers said? something like "I don't belong to an organized political party, I'm a Democrat"

:rofl:

:hi:

[McHatin]

212. What do you want to bet...

that this list does nothing to eliminate sexism?

One thing to realize in this modern world, everyone has certain privileges. If you just point out the (somewhat dispuatable) privileges of only one group, you will likely be perceived as adding to the problem.

[undeterred]

217. Why is this post still going? I ordered your chemical castration hours ago.

:evilfrown:

[americanstranger]

222. I'm also wondering why it's still going.

And I took great care not to get into this one. Talk about your minefields...

- as

[seabeyond]

223. and lookie, you posting AND continuing it on..... lol lol n/t

[americanstranger]

304. I know. I cannot help myself.

I do the same thing with smoking threads. Compulsive commenter, I am. :)

- as

[Luna_C_06]

229. Thank you for posting this!

And I would gladly trade my "female privilege" of getting free meals and watching free movies for the guarantee of never having to worry about rape and sexual assault ever again.

[cgrindley]

238. This list is symptomatic of the generational divide on DU

many of these issues were true back in the 1970s, but for people entering the work force today, or finishing higher education today, or encountering the legal system today, or raising children today, or simply existing in America of 2008... almost none of it's true and some of it is dangerously and offensively false. If anything, young women have it much better today than young men. They attend college more frequently, graduate more frequently, and yet still benefit from hiring practices designed to address the problems of an entirely different millennium. People need to get over themselves. They need to realize that their life experiences back in the 1970s are utterly irrelevant today.

In my office, there are 23 full time employees. Of these, 8 are men and the rest are women. Both the director and the deputy director are women. Every single person on the hiring board is a woman. My firm's president and half of its vice presidents are women.

Times have changed. The OP and the dinosaurs posting anti-male vitriol in this thread need to join the 21st century.

[noamnety]

251. They graduate at college at higher rates

And with that college degree, they make the same as men who don't have that degree. We need the extra degree to earn the same pay - but it's not really the same, because our salary comes with the tuition debt.

I REALLY wish people here understood statistics. You have an anecdotal story showing that you work for women. People who understand statistics understand that if you personally are at one end of a bell curve, that doesn't mean the bell curve doesn't exist.

If we were discussing male privilege within the tiny world you occupy at your job, the bell curve would be in a different place. Yes.

[seabeyond]

252. this poster also says rape is not only a woman issue, but equally a man issue too. n/t

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

257. men are as concerned about being raped as women? n/t

[seabeyond]

258. whats the lie. women are raped. men are not raped.

this was the post. this is what you told me was a lie. not talk about children. men. women. you said it was a lie.

[Name removed]

271. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gollygee]

260. In the list in the OP, it specifically says "If I'm a teen or adult"

Obviously child sexual abuse is awful and horrific, but it isn't a part of the list in the OP specifically because both boys and girls suffer from that so it isn't an issue of male entitlement. So long as they're not in prison, adult men are much much less likely to be raped than adult women.

[cgrindley]

270. Excluding the south, there's little racism in the US

you're not incapable of seeing the fundamental logical flaw are you? that the OP attempted to manipulate the ground rules of the issue merely highlights astonishing and disgraceful misandry.

[raccoon]

275. Yeah, right.

"Excluding the south, there's little racism in the US"

In every one of the 50 states, there's racism. If you think otherwise, you have your head somewhere.

[cgrindley]

293. Why must I explain the obvious?

the OP purposefully excluded prison and child sexual assault when it attempted to claim that ONLY women have to worry about rape. That's logically flawed, kind of like claiming that:

excluding all of their food, McDonalds isn't all that bad for you.

[gollygee]

279. I live in Michigan, and I can tell you that's simply not true

though it is a good example of you minimizing problems that don't directly impact you.

[cgrindley]

289. Do you need reading lessons too?

the OP 's statement regarding sexual assault on males contained the same limiting clause as:


ignoring the Nazis, Germany has a pretty good track record with anti-semitism.

[seabeyond]

296. sure everyone else has the problem, cant be that you werent clear.....

geeeez us

[cgrindley]

300. No I wasn't unclear

some people have comprehension issues or are being willfully obtuse.

[gollygee]

303. You are being willfully obtuse

not only are you wrong, your examples of the logic don't hold up either. The north does have problems with racism. Germany had trouble with antisemitism before the Nazis and after the Nazis. The fact that there is racism in the south and antisemitism with Nazism doesn't mean that the problems don't exist outside of those parameters. You can't dismiss an issue by pointing to one part of the issue and saying that because you can dismiss one part, you can dismiss the whole thing.

[cgrindley]

308. See, you missed it again

the point with the example is that it is absurd and disingenuous to exclude the Nazis from a discussion of 20th century German anti-semitism.

[gollygee]

301. It's limiting to instances of male privilege

as an adult male, you have a privilege that I don't have as an adult female. You can walk down the street at night and not have to be particularly worried about getting raped. Not only do I have to worry about that, if I DID get raped, I'd have people blaming me by saying, "Why on earth was she walking down the street at night? What did she expect?" It is a privilege to not have to worry about getting raped if you walk around outside at night. Just because that privilege doesn't extend to children doesn't make the privilege real to adult men. I think you have sketchy logic - just because children don't benefit from that privilege, it doesn't exist? That's ridiculous.

[cgrindley]

305. But that's utterly irrational don't you see?

this is what you and the OP did:

popcorn is too sweet because it is covered with chocolate sauce



so I said:

but what about all the popcorn that is free of chocolate sauce



then you replied:

but we're defining popcorn as being popcorn covered by chocolate sauce



can't you see why your argument is absurd?

[gollygee]

306. Your logic is all screwed up

Popcorn with chocolate sauce is sweet

But what about popcorn without chocolate sauce. That isn't sweet, therefore no popcorn is sweet.

No, we're specifically talking about popcorn with chocolate sauce. Regardless of whether popcorn without chocolate sauce isn't sweet, popcorn WITH chocolate sauce is, and the fact that popcorn without chocolate sauce isn't sweet doesn't make popcorn WITH chocolate sauce any less sweet or any less a part of the real world.

[cgrindley]

309. But limiting a discussion of popcorn to only include chocolate covered popcorn

is absurd and unfair to the nature of popcorn.

[gollygee]

313. Not if the whole list is about chocolate

and that particular point is about specifically chocolate-covered popcorn because it's on a list about chocolate.

[cgrindley]

316. But it is statistically idiotic to focus on chocolate-covered popcorn

it's absurd.

[lumberjack_jeff]

321. Yet, if you were a male, you'd be 50% more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Do you feel an obligation to recognize that you're privileged to be relatively immune to violent crime?

Or, as I often hear, is this privilege obfuscated by a rationalization that men are victims of violent crimes because they are inherently violent and that they brought it on themselves?

[VotesForWomen]

333. jeezus h. christ. nt

[noamnety]

262. Is it really EQUALLY an issue for both genders?

Who gets raped more often (at 5 times the rate of the other gender)?

Who commits most of the rapes of both men and women?

How many popular movies can you think of where a woman gets raped?
How many popular movies can you think of where a man gets raped?

How many popular movies can you think of where a woman gets raped, and it's portrayed in an erotic way?
How many popular movies can you think of where a man gets raped, and it's portrayed in an erotic way?

denial

[seabeyond]

283. dear god in heaven...... if you dont believe you=dumb. dontcha know. stupid women

to believe.... that we actually have a problem with our male population and rape, and not to believe that our men are in the same situation

a woman that has been raped twice says without trying to be offended here.

because I=DUMB

[cgrindley]

292. No one is calling you a stupid woman

I could not give two shits about whatever gender you are. It's offensive that you are attempting to discount, minimize and marginalize sexual assault against men.

[noamnety]

320. oh gosh, yes, that's exactly what this entire list was about.

the entire point is that when rape happens to men, we don't care or it shouldn't be addressed.

:eyes:

Look, it's okay to say out loud that a majority of women have their lives controlled in various ways by the knowledge that rape is a very real possibility, and that men do not live their lives under those same guidelines because it's not a constant risk that they are always aware of in the same way. And it's okay to acknowledge that a large percentage of women are dealing with trauma from rape.

That's not an insult to men. It's an insult to women if a man cannot acknowledge that without getting offended. It's just truth telling.

Even the airforce has managed to admit this, that there is an area there that they need to address, because so many women entering the force have PTSD from rape, and what happens when they get additional combat PTSD on top of that is a concern they need to address as a gender issue. That, also, is not an insult to you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

310. Would you agree that rape is intolerable, regardless?

Would you agree that domestic violence is intolerable, regardless?

One of the things that concerns me a great deal is that generating outrage about abuse of women appears to require minimizing the the abuse of men and boys. In another post, it was pointed out that 1.5 million women and almost 900,000 men are the victim of spousal abuse each year. I, for one, don't think that helping the 1.5 million is served by pretending that the 900,000 don't exist.

Only the goal of collective retribution is served by that, and in my experience, that is largely the point.

[noamnety]

318. Rape is intolerable, yes.

Assault of any sort is intolerable. yes.

That doesn't negate the need to EXAMINE the cultural causes of it. And it's not an insult to either gender to examine those causes or to acknowledge the statistics. Right?

[lumberjack_jeff]

319. Agreed. Thank you for helping to seek common ground. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

259. The problem isn't a lack of understanding of statistics

It's failure to believe what they say.

The difference in pay between men and women is fully explained away by studies conducted by the American Association of University Women and the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, both of which I've provided to you, but you have to read beyond the hyperbolic executive summaries to get the benefit. The AAUW says that the pay gap for new college graduates is 5%. The IWPR says it's something less than 3%. To call either of these organizations as without an agenda is inaccurate.

Now that they've found that women make the same hourly wage in the same jobs, you can bet that they'll stop doing studies. They've established the conventional wisdom, so now it's time to sit back while their constituents reap the benefit.

Not every job entails flexible hours or nonmonetary reward. It is grossly unfair to accept your view that men should be relegated to all of these jobs AND not be compensated for that additional risk/discomfort/overtime.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

255. kick

for later reading

[lumberjack_jeff]

286. Don't worry, it'll still be here when you come back.

That is until someone decides to turn it into a flame war.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

298. Thanks, but it really was a selfish reply closer to 1000 posts

[Sabriel]

280. I'll add to #32

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Back when it became not cool to always use the masculine to refer to a single person (the worker and his...), we switched over to using both gendered pronouns. However, most people (almost all?) still place he before she or his before her.

And don't think girls don't notice that and internalize the message. My daughter was five when she said, "Why are you the only person who ever says, 'she or he'?"

We use language to send implicit messages to people every time we speak. Being aware of privilege--whatever kind--means being more self-aware and careful in your speech, actions, and interactions. It's a constant struggle. It's worth it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

288. Good point. I try but don't always succeed. n/t

[noamnety]

322. That's funny.

Just this weekend, I used she or he in a post for an online class.

But it was deliberate, with awareness on my end - and when I say he or she, it's without thought, like of course he comes first.

[Sabriel]

282. I'll add to #32

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Back when it became not cool to always use the masculine to refer to a single person (the worker and his...), we switched over to using both gendered pronouns. However, most people (almost all?) still place he before she or his before her.

And don't think girls don't notice that and internalize the message. My daughter was five when she said, "Why are you the only person who ever says, 'she or he'?"

We use language to send implicit messages to people every time we speak. Being aware of privilege--whatever kind--means being more self-aware and careful in your speech, actions, and interactions. It's a constant struggle. It's worth it.

[booley]

348. The problems of talking about Privilege

The first one being is that when you go off this way, any point you make gets lost because you sound more like an asshole.

And this happens in large part because, like the OP above, the writer forgets the other weaknesses in this kind of argument.

such as:

These are generalizations and as such don't necessarily reflect the experiences of people. For instance, as a man who has worked in data entry, I can tell you I was typically outnumbered by my female counterparts. Most of my supervisors have been women.

Also, the writer doesn't distinguish between which of these are actually true and which are perceived to be true by an outsider. (I can tell you that men choosing to have a family DOES often come into play when employers consider things like hiring and promotions. and not in a good way.)

And then there's the biggest problem of all, that so called male privilege as well as white privilege and straight privilege misses the point. It turns inequality into some kind of contest.

Yes, as a white man I can say that i have societal advantages that a black mother does not. but as a gay man, she has privileges that I do not. In fact as a mother she has privileges I do not. Will either of our problems be solved by bitching about who has more "privilege?

And finally it over simplifies what is a complex issue. I am pretty sure that Black and Muslim Men who would look at this list and say "Bull Shit! I don't' see people like me in charge"

Not to mention it ignores that we all as in ALL OF US, are victims in one way or another of stereotyping and enforced gender conformity.

Remember those data entry jobs I had? It many cases it was assumed I was gay long before I came out because a "Real Man" wouldn't have had such an "emasculated ' job.

In short, the OP above just adds to the problem by turning people off and not getting to the heart of the problem (which is that inequality hurts us all)