If your fireplace 'smokes' it could kill...

[ruiner4u]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=87ca1971-a0d6-4321-bd14-1722e84d584d

Could your fireplace make your neighbors sick? Or is this all a smoke-screen for a fringe environmental movement?

The debate has pitted neighbor against neighbor on this otherwise quiet street in loveland.

Rob Streicher and his wife Vonda enjoy their wood burning fireplace. Their next-door neighbors, Jack and Kate Earley, say the smoke from that fire has ruined their lives.

"When you have the chief of the fire department show up with two Symmes Township police officers, it's a little intimidating, for us burning a fire pit in our backyard," Rob Streicher said.

The Streichers got a written warning ordering them to stop burning outside or face fines under an Ohio law that bans open burning if someone complains.

"The fire department fortunately stopped that outside burning," Jack Earley said. "They were great. But they can't do anything about a fireplace in a house."

[NC_Nurse]

1. Wouldn't we all be dead?

I mean EVERYONE used to heat with wood back in the day...:shrug:

[zonkers]

2. Vanity fireplace usage should be taxed unless being used as primary source of heat.

Hey I love a romantic fire as much as the next guy but if you really add it up and factor in eco footprint reduction movments.... they gotta go. Don't you think. Sure, smokestacks in China are way more destructive but don't we have to live by example?

ON edit. I bet you will see them taxed in our lifetime.

As far the the OP goes... yeah, I can see how second hand smoke from a neighbor's lungs. Hell, it messes up my lungs when I used one my own house.

[tyedyeto]

4. What is 'vanity' usage'?

I heated my household for 25 years with wood. No oil, gas, coal, electricity.

How one household heats their house does not equate with how their next door neighbor does the same.

[zonkers]

7. I would say vanity usage is burning a fire for its atmospheric effect as

opposed to its heating value.

[Pavulon]

6. Umm no.

We can tax farting and stepping in dog crap next. This is a neighbor problem. Makes me glad I live in the country to read this.

Morons and cockroaches, taking over (not you the "victim" neighbor)...

[zonkers]

8. How long do you think your hallowed "country" will remain "country if we do not

adopt policies that preserve trees and promote a healthy atmosphere? What about the future?

[Le Taz Hot]

16. I don't consider reducing my

heating costs from $600.00 in one month to $250.00 one month as a "vanity" fire.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

17. Fireplaces are taxed where I live. When you're assessed for your real estate taxes, fireplaces

add to the value and tax bill of the home.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

23. Remnant of the Hearth Taxes in Great Britain in the 1600s?

The British hearth tax was designed to be fair in that the grander the property, the more hearths it had. I had no idea fireplaces were taxed anywhere in this country -- very interesting!

[eFriendly]

3. Some people...

will bitch about anything just to hear themselves bitch, sometimes.

[Pavulon]

5. Bull

I heated with wood for many years. This is pure bullshit. Makes me glad my neighbors are not batshit insane. "aching tail bone" Jesus..

I would burn hemp rope, just to make these idiots pick the phone up.

[Ellipsis]

9. No, but it drinks a lot.

Couldn't resist :yoiks:

An encroaching problem is outdoor wood boiler systems.

http://www.centralboiler.com/models.php

They're popping up everywhere.

[EMdamascus]

10. We love our fireplace in the bedroom!

Wouldn't let them stop my evening fire! I think this is whining from the whacko lobby!

[WritersBlock]

19. So if you're a non-smoker, you'll be okay if someone lights a cigarette in your bedroom, I take it.

After all, the smoke from my neighbor's woodstove gets into my bedroom (and every other room in our house).

It makes me nauseous, it's inside my own home, and it's only there because they think their stove is "neat."

[ChazII]

44. As you know in Maricopa county

we have the no burn day and I would guess that other states have something similar. Good for you for not laetting the whinung nannies stop you from enjoying your fire. Last week several homes in our neighborhood had fires going.

[BrotherBuzz]

11. I wonder what my neighbors think of my coal forge smoke today?

Nice day so I fired it up for about five hours. The neighborhood must stink almost as much as I do. She who must be obeyed insists I take a shower tonight before I even look toward the bedroom (not a bad idea).

[EMdamascus]

13. Hey Brother Buzz

I'm a steel pounder myself! Two propane and one charcoal forge. This is not a coal area. What are you pounding out? I'm welding up damascus blades, conventional and cable. Pm me and lets talk.

[BrotherBuzz]

34. PM you later as I'm on a tight one today

Yesterday, I roughed out a froe to make a bunch of redwood grapestakes. The froe is ready to receive the wood handle. Great economics; ten or fifteen hours spent making a froe that I can purchase for thirty-five bucks. :rofl:

Damascus is way out of my league, but let's talk, nevertheless.

[BrotherBuzz]

45. That user cannot receive private messages yet.

POST MORE you damn fool, I can't PM you until your post count reaches an unspoken magical number! (you are real close to the number but I can't tell you or I'd have to kill you);)

PM me later in the week and we talk.

[Mugu]

12. Fireplace assholes can claim whatever they want.

But wood smoke contains dioxin and is at least as dangerous as second hand cigarette smoke on a much, much larger scale. Now that we know the dangers of smoking in public and have laws against it, what makes these self-indulgent assholes any different? They can buy natural gas/propane like the rest of us. People with fireplaces/fire pits are clearly more interested in their simple luxury than the health of their neighbors.

If a tiny little cigarette is dangerous in a bar, then it's clearly dangerous for people to burn thousands of times more mass in their fireplace. And the fireplace isn't a habit, so you'll get over it quite easily.

Regards, Mugu

Edit: was going to add something but decided not to.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Yeah, because extracting natural gas from the ground doesn't require any energy at all.

It's created by pixies from fairy dust in Disneyland.

[MadHound]

20. Wow, ignorance on display

Apparently you haven't bothered to find out that most woodstoves have come equipped with a filtering system that removes ninety percent of the pollutants and particulate matter from smoke, rendering the exhaust about as deadly as the exhaust from propane fired heaters. You also don't know that most people who cut wood usually cut only dead wood, since it takes less time to season. Third, you are condemning the rural poor who can't afford to buy propane to heat their homes. Generally, you have spend around 1-2000 dollars annually to heat your house with propane, as to spending fifty bucks on gas to cut enough wood to heat the same home. And as somebody mentioned upthread, drilling for natural gas, or any other fossil fuel, is a dirty, polluting business, and you are tapping into a nonrenewable resource that unlike wood, cannot be replaced.

I really suggest that you educate yourself before you go on ranting screeds concerning topics that you know nothing about. Otherwise you wind up looking foolish.

[wintersoulja]

22. down

The downside of wood burning is incontrovertible.
The upside of alternative methods of heating to the
environment equally so. Not all wood stoves are created equal, and when I installed them
almost 20 years ago, you could get higher emission stoves legally in clean areas of CA, which generated much of the smog that moves through the middle of the state, where stoves were more regulated for their emissions. Burning wood is bad for the planet. Analogies to second hand smoke are totally insufficient.

[MadHound]

27. The industry has come a long way in the past couple of decades

Do we need to tighten up the rules, requiring upstack filtering, sure. But wood burning is indeed carbon neutral, and is less toxic and less polluting than coal. Oh, and it is a renewable resource, and harvesting wood is less polluting than mining for coal or drilling for gas.

A lot has changed in the past couple of decades, perhaps it is time that you caught up.

[wintersoulja]

29. guns and fireplaces

really get people uptight

[MadHound]

30. No not really, just peple who are claiming to be experts based on material twenty years out of date

I suggest you take some refresher courses, or some independent study.

[EMdamascus]

50. And I love both!

Thanks to the above poster I have a new alias on here!

[wintersoulja]

21. You mean wood product burning assholes I think

Burning wood or wood products is the SINGLE MOST TOXIC FORM OF POLLUTION.
Fireplaces are an inefficient joke, inserts arent much better, but ag burning and
all the other aspects of the problem need to be redressed
equally. pinning the blame on lower income or rural
users of fireplaces just makes for a smoke screen to the real
dangers of the SINGLE MOST TOXIC FORM OF POLLUTION,
and the people who profit from it.

[MadHound]

24. Another who is shooting off their mouth without educating themselves

First of all, burning wood is carbon neutral. If you leave that dead wood(which is what the vast majority of wood cut for heating is) on the ground to rot, it will release just as much CO2 as burning it would. Secondly, by burning it in modern woodstoves or fireplaces equipped with inserts, you have a filtering system upstack that captures ninety percent of the particulate matter and toxins before releasing the remain exhaust. Third, coal plants are much more toxic, what with their ability to cause acid rain, releasing mercury into the environment, and the larger amount of greenhouse gases and toxic materials that they release. Fourth, harvesting wood(a renewable resource) is a lot less polluting than mining coal or drilling for gas, neither of which is renewable.

Oh, and who are the people who profit from wood burning? Generally those who are poor and lower income, they save a vast amount on their heating bill. But heaven forbid we allow the poor and lower income folks get ahead, no, they must join in on the coal and gas burning too:eyes:

[wintersoulja]

26. I didnt have to educate myself

I went to one of the best Environmental programs in the country and let them try to do it for me.

[MadHound]

28. Apparently despite their best efforts, that education didn't take, did it.

You're trying to claim that wood burning is the "single most toxic form of pollution". Ummm, ever hear of coal? Ever hear of upstack filters? Ever hear that unlike coal, burning wood is carbon neutral?

Perhaps you just ate the pages:eyes:

[wintersoulja]

33. where did you learn your rudeness?

I dont need to continue this discussion any further. You are being quite abusive, not that I mind how you treat me, but perhaps others arent as deserving?

[MadHound]

43. What others? I'm speaking with you.

As far as rudeness goes, I tend to think that somebody who calls out people as "wood product burning assholes" really doesn't deserve to be treated politely, especially when they make specious claims on a topic that they know nothing about. Perhaps next time you should realize that if you wish to be treated with a modicum of politeness and respect, you should initially offer the same yourself. You should also be ready to back your opinions up with fact. After all, you know what they say opinions resemble. . .

[wintersoulja]

47. more of the same

Im not interested in playing internet tennis, but in the service of remedial discussion, let me back up and clarify my trajectory. Fireplace burning assholes was quite a loaded statement, so I thought it would be more accurate to include all wood burning and also fortify the apparently contestable(?) FACTUAL notion that wood burning is highly toxic, in fact the worst form of combustive pollution. No, Im not going to dig through my University texts and readers or comb the idiot internet for facts and research that goes back decades before the Bushcorp seized full control of what parameters were acceptable for research and research results. My "outdated" education and information is hardly going to change because some manufacturers started including catalytic converters or whatever in their infernal devices. MOST FIREPLACES AND WOODBURNING DOES NOT TAKE PLACE IN AN EFFICIENT OR "CLEAN" MANNER. PERIOD. You have a burr under your saddle, and went off on the fella who called fireplace users assholes. I actually agree wholeheartedly with that notion. So I brought a few things to your attention, despite your rabid demeanor. Treating people politely is a personal decision. Calling into question my education was your decision as well. I know my education was more than adequate, and I resent having to point towards it, its an elitist institution which has failed our society wholesale, and people with concerns or inferior notions of their own educational opportunities or achievements can be easily put off by ivory tower snobs. But I was fortunate to experience what I did, when I did. And I did do quite a few woodstove installs after the earthquake in Santa Cruz.
So I know a little about the devices. I understand the economic aspects particularly for rural and poor people. What matters is the chemical/physical and environmental reality of wood burning.
This shit is so open and shut, for you to go off in any other direction suggests you earn your keep selling fireplaces. I dont really care one whit whether you do or not, nor do I feel inclined or obligated to play one handed games online with anyone when theres real shit to do outside. Its just a damn shame doing so when the air is poisonous because of someones cozy fire.

[ileus]

39. Maybe he's counting forrest fires also??? LOL

[RainDog]

32. well then...

where are your stats? where are your comparative studies?

to say that you let someone else try to educate you doesn't mean they did, does it? to state something doesn't make it so. Solar is tops, of course. but you can't heat with solar in winter in most places I know.

what about if someone heated with a quickly renewable resource like hemp? as biomass? If that would save trees, get U.S. off of oil, get out of coal-mining and stop nuclear power plants... would you think it's okay then?

do they teach you about cost/benefit analysis? Do they teach you that nothing is perfect?

...fireplaces in the U.S. create more smog in L.A. than cars????

prove it with long-term studies from reputable sources that can be assessed by others here.

[wintersoulja]

48. two words for your straw house

get help

[ileus]

38. LOL now that's fumby.....

[ileus]

18. Talk about self-righteous people...what a bunch of whining goons.

[El Pinko]

25. This is the second thread referring to the same grouchy couple with the terms "kill", and "deadly"

The actual articles in both cases never said anything about "kill" or "deadly" - it just described the neighbors with their litany of complaints about respiratory distress etc. - no tellin gif this is just a rare allergy or a psychosomatic response or what, but far from being "deadly", I think it would be more accurately described as a annoyance, or maybe a "health threat".


Hell, people probably die from symptoms brought on from seasonal allergies caused by pollen - sleep apnea is aggravated by allergies and can be deadly - bud we don't talk about "DEADLY POLLEN!!!!"

[ruiner4u]

37. well. its probably cause of....

the complete nonsence of said couple.. Its all about looking for the next scapegoat

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Most towns regulate outdoor burning.

But a fireplace? Sorry, but even if the smoke is a wee bit toxic, there are few things in life as enjoyable and inexpensive as a warm fire on a winter night. We humans have gathered by the fire since time began for us.

[NutmegYankee]

35. Some people up here in New England heat entirely with wood.

The state gives out free areas in the state forests to harvest the wood, and a mere 6 cords stacked and dried will heat the house all winter long. It costs a lot of your time (wood splitters rock), but it is good on the pocket book. Just stock the wood furnace 3-4 times a day.

People whining about fireplaces need to grow up.

[ileus]

40. Some people in every state do...this is a dumber than rocks argument.

Well every state where people actually have to heat more than twice a year.

[NutmegYankee]

46. Some places are colder than others.

But dumber than rocks argument? I was making a statement, not arguing. I do find it crazy that people think wood is this obscene form of heating. As if mankind didn't heat with wood for thousands of years...

[Greyhound]

36. Second hand smoke! Second hand smoke! n/t

[WinkyDink]

41. "burning a fire pit in our backyard" does not = "a fireplace", as is commonly understood.

[Bronco_Buster]

42. Well, they can vote to change the law

At first glance, it seems a bit too far to tell people they can't have a fireplace fire, or a bbq type fire, but, if there is a law that says no open fires outdoors if someone complains...well that's democracy in action. If it is really important to them, they can start a petition and get it on their ballot, or have their representative try to change the law.

[Eric J in MN]

49. Several years ago, I lived at an apartment complex in which....

...some apartments had chimneys.

The top of the chimneys was relatively close to the ground.

When I would go for a walk at night wanting to breathe in fresh night air, instead I was breathing smoke.

I would support a regulation that chimneys have to very tall.

[B Calm]

51. OMG,, campgrounds will be a thing of the past...

[RadiationTherapy]

52. My pellet stove burns 97% efficient. The "smoke" is actually just a smell.

A pleasant, "sawdust burnt on the table saw" smell. Costs me about $4 a day (1 40lb bag) if it is very cold.

[wintersoulja]

53. Lots of pellet stove users get tired of the fuel hassles.

Thats been my anecdotal experience.

[liberal N proud]

54. Jack and Kate are just jealous

They probably have a gas fireplace and it cost too much to run.

I love the smell of a wood fire waifing through the crisp winter air. Nothing like a real wood fireplace.

[MindPilot]

55. How is smoke getting into the house?

Building codes generally require the chimney to be 4 to 6 feet above the peak roof line and smoke is warm so it travels up. Also if the furnace is on, the blower will tend put the inside of the house under a slight positive pressure keeping the outside out.

[Iktomiwicasa]

56. I heat entirely with wood that I cut

every year. About 6-8 cords annually of dead wood. I can't afford any other heating method, and frankly, if I could, I still would not want to fork over what little money I have to the Big Energy Corporations simply to provide a basic necessity.