Soldiers say officers commanded them to ‘kill all military age males’ in Iraq

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13974639/

updated 3:56 p.m. CT, Fri., July. 21, 2006

Accused troops: We were under orders to kill

Soldiers say officers commanded them to ‘kill all military age males’ in Iraq

EL PASO, Texas - Four U.S. soldiers accused of murdering suspected insurgents during a raid in Iraq said they were under orders to “kill all military age males,” according to sworn statements obtained by The Associated Press.

The soldiers first took some of the men into custody because they were using two women and a toddler as human shields. They shot three of the men after the women and child were safe and say the men attacked them.

“The ROE (rule of engagement) was to kill all military age males on Objective Murray,” Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard told investigators, referring to the target by its code name.

[lpbk2713]

1. Nothing has changed since Viet Nam.

The rampant mindset there was 'Kill em all. Let God sort em out.'

We have made no progress at all thanks to BushCo.

[Echo In Light]

6. Phoenix Program/Iraqi FREEDOM!

[BlueEyedSon]

23. Except the quality of news reporting and the transparency of the administration.

Both for the worse.

Oh, and torture.

[L. Coyote]

25. El Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Guatemala., ...long list

going back to shooting Indians on sight! The term "others" is used for a reason.

[SpiralHawk]

59. Nothing has changed since Herod

Commander AWOL Bush is at the head of this chain of these anti-Christlike atrocities.

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. I don't believe them. Sorry, but is just 4 guys n/t

[bryant69]

5. Well it's impossible to know for sure, I guess. Such orders won't have been written down

It's hard to imagine what evidence they could bring forward.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[atreides1]

7. That's your choice

But from what I've read of some of your threads, they could show you a video of US troops executing women and children, and you wouldn't believe it.

So, you don't believe these 4 guys, because why????

[Squatch]

9. Because 4 guys on the stand with their lives in the balance will say anything

to get them off the hook.

[The Stranger]

16. That response could be used to squelch any whistleblower, just like in Abu Ghraib.

The way to prevent going up the ladder is to claim that they are only trying to get off with a lesser sentence.

[Squatch]

21. Four men standing trial for murder are NOT "whistleblowers"

[The Stranger]

22. In the military they are.

[Squatch]

24. No, they are not.

A whistleblower would have brought these "orders" to the attention of leadership prior to being charged with murder.

[Fredda Weinberg]

33. Exactly. This story stinks n/t

[The Stranger]

37. Nice pile-on.

[Squatch]

40. Thankfully, Fredda called the allegations for what they were...baloney.

[The Stranger]

36. In the military, a "whistleblower" gets fragged. No charges necessary.

[Squatch]

39. Absolute bullshit.

You've been watching too many movies.

[The Stranger]

44. This is a defense to a criminal indictment and investigating it is required.

Let them move up the chain of command -- it is the only way.

[NOLALady]

53. Possibly,

they were afraid of consequences if they reported their leaders.

[me b zola]

70. I call bullshit

You have said that you are a combat veteran, that you are in the military, yet you expect that men/women who are given an illegal order in a "combat zone" to refuse that order? You can't see how that scenerio would play out in real life?

Something doesn't smell right...and it's not the four guys on trial.

[Pavulon]

71. Very Harsh..

you had better be ready to apologize for what you just did..Calling him out is rude.

BTW more than 4 guys would have been issued that order. Someone else would have heard it. I, for one, if issued that order would have refused it as an engineer. Secondly if someone else followed it, and was later charged. Someone WOULD ask and I would have been COMPELLED to testify I heard the order. Thus incriminating the person who issued it.

I sure as shit would not lie and risk my freedom. All morality aside. That is a BLATANTLY illegal order. Not a questionable order, but illegal.

[Squatch]

77. I'll be expecting that apology from you.

But, something tells me I'll be waiting a long time...

I absolutely 1-bazillion percent expected the 210 soldiers under my command to flat-out refuse ANY order which is illegal. Furthermore, I absolutely expected any soldier, when issued an illegal order to exercise the chain of command to bring it to my attention for investigation and possible disciplinary action.

[tuckessee]

75. So where are the whistleblowers in this unit?

There's no doubt the four murdered people.

The question is did they do it own their own or was there an order.

Either way, there should have been plenty of whistleblowers according to your theory.

Why is it that according to the article "Officers from their unit initially cleared the soldiers of wrongdoing."?

[The Stranger]

14. It is interesting that you feel the need to apologize.

Interesting indeed.

[Echo In Light]

20. There are a handful here at DU who go apeshit over skepticism of military/police/authority

...although I'm sure you're already aware.

[Fredda Weinberg]

32. Until I walk in their shoes, I will honestly not know what happened

I respect their service, but can't take their word that the orders came from superiors.

[The Stranger]

35. Deep down, you know they likely speak some truth -- thus, your apology.

[Squatch]

38. She was apologizing out of courtesy to DU

since she knew her comment was going to bring out all the incredibly gullible assholes on this board.

[Fredda Weinberg]

42. No ... actually, I know how my father reacted after being liberated

by the Russians after WWII. I was taught not to judge people in extremis.

[yardwork]

29. It's more than that. I live in North Carolina. There have been numerous civil trials.

The national news doesn't pick up the trials - both civilian and military - taking place in North Carolina involving military and paramilitary personnel accused of murdering civilians, including children, in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is pervasive.

[Fredda Weinberg]

45. Atrocities occur in every confict. The question is whether there were orders n/t

[yardwork]

47. There were orders. There were orders to torture and kill at Abu Ghraib.

The orders came from the White House, from bush and cheney and rumsfeld. I'm sure that many career military resisted the orders, but enough did not, and the military has lowered their recruitment standards to the point where they have too many willing to take orders without regard for ethics or law.

I've read enough and talked to enough people serving in the military to believe this. I know career Marines who are trying to get out.

[Fredda Weinberg]

51. Let them write their memoirs now. One day, they can be compiled

This is for history books, not an anonymous bulletin board. My best wishes to your uniformed friends ... they are caught in a nightmare not of their making.

[jpak]

34. George Sr. and Babs have created a monster

and apologists for his crimes abound...

fuck that

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. So you're calling the troops liars?

[Pavulon]

66. Yeppers

those guys are accused of murder. They are trying to weasel out by saying they were given an illegal order. So unless the rest of the people who received that order testify in court the order was issued they are fucked.

To summarize they are lying and no one is going to back them.

[NOLALady]

52. You believe they are lying?

Why do you believe they are lying?

[originalpckelly]

3. Ooooh, that's real nice, indiscriminate killing of civilians.

Isn't that a war crime?

[Squatch]

4. Four soldiers accused of murder have nothing to gain with such allegations

:sarcasm:

[acmavm]

11. Yeah, and we know the American military command would

NEVER do anything like that.

DOUBLE :sarcasm:

[Squatch]

13. Actually, you are correct.

In my 11 years of active military service at command echelons, I have never witnessed "anything like that".

But, don't let that get in the way of a nice little DU smear party.

[Echo In Light]

17. Extended family members who are Marines who showed their favorite "kill" videos

At a Xmas family gathering two yrs ago...which promptly turned everyone off. I'm sure the service attracts different people for different reasons.

[originalpckelly]

19. The military command would never instruct soldiers to engage in torture.

Yet, there is photographic evidence to the contrary and a story from the Washington Post that suggest soldiers at Abu Graib were instructed to use cIA torture techniques, but they took those techniques too far.

[acmavm]

27. Pffffffft! I can understand why you feel so defensive belonging to

an organization that has shown that the killing of civilians that never did a damn thing to this country is just taking care of business. And goodness knows, you gotta kill them over there to make sure they don't kill us over here.

Oops, my mistake. That was 17 Saudis, a Yemeni, and ...

<snip>
Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11
A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left
was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase." New Yorker 10/1/01 by Seymour Hersh

http://www.welfarestate.com/911/

-MORE-

Oops again, we don't know who did what but we do know that there wasn't any Iraqi involvement, don't we? But that's okay, they got our oil so that justifies killing how many old people and children? I mean those old croaks and kiddies would have been beating down our doors, raping our 14-year old girls, killing their families... Dammit, another oops. That was OUR military.

Oh damn, lets pretend that the US military is over in Iraq defending Amurika if that'll get you through the night.

[The Stranger]

8. Shades of the My Lai Massacre, only there is no outrage today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

[NOLALady]

54. Not only no outrage,

but denial, excuses and/or justification.

I remember hitting the streets along with thousands after My Lai.

The silence is deafening.

[Art_from_Ark]

64. And after all was said and done,

the only one who was held accountable for My Lai was Lieutenant William Calley.

[gratuitous]

10. Surely the military will sort this all out

After all, who better to judge accused killers than their comrades in arms? We can't possibly leave adjudication of this to the criminal justice system of Iraq. They'd never understand the subtleties and nuances of how killing these men served the greater good we're accomplishing in their backwards little country.

[baldguy]

12. Just like Caesar marching through Gaul 2000 yrs ago.

At least they were honest despots.

[iamthebandfanman]

18. i think making that comparison

gives them more credit at doing something , whether negative or positive, than they are worth ;)

[baldguy]

50. True, that.

How about "Like goats spreading across a field, eating everything in their path"?

[NOLALady]

56. Or locusts.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Remember all those Iraqis that Bush and the Republicans claimed

wanted us in Iraq to take care of their Saddaam problem? Do you think, if they knew that five years later we would be gunning for their eight year old sons, do you think they would have been so complicit and complacent?

[conspirator]

26. KILL ALL MEN IN IRAQ! Can we call it genocide yet? Or they could do like ghengis khan

and rape the women as well

[NOLALady]

55. I'm certain there's a lot of that going on.

[yardwork]

28. How.....biblical.

The U.S. military is now run by and full of neo-Nazi white supremacist right-wing extremist Dominionist Christians. Are we surprised that they are attempting to "cleanse" the Middle East?

Torture, genocide. When do Americans say enough is enough?

[kineneb]

46. The Herod Solution, with different age range. n/t

[malaise]

57. Yep I see the Christian loonies at work here

I'll call it murder of biblical proportions. I believe the soldiers.

[Smith_3]

30. Someone should post this over at FreeRethuglic. Its a lose-lose situation for them.

If the soldiers acted under orders, they lose. If the soldiers didn't act under orders, they lose too... :eyes:

[tuckessee]

72. Nah, DU is a fine place for this.

There's more than a smattering of rabid military apologists here.

[whistle]

31. This has been going on since at least the Gulf War under Bush 1

RE: International War Crimes Tribunal
United States War Crimes Against Iraq

Initial Complaint
Charging

George Bush, J. Danforth Quayle, James Baker,
Richard Cheney, William Webster, Colin Powell,
Norman Schwarzkopf and Others to be named
With

Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes Against
Humanity and Other Criminal Acts and High Crimes in
Violation of the Charter of the United Nations,
International Law, the Constitution of the United States
and Laws made in Pursuance Thereof.

<snip>
General Thomas Kelly commented on February 23, 1991, that by the time the ground war begins "there won't be many of them left." General Norman Schwarzkopf placed Iraqi military casualties at over 100,000. The intention was to destroy all military facilities and equipment wherever located and to so decimate the military age male population that Iraq could not raise a substantial force for half a generation.
The conduct violated the Charter of the United Nations, the Hague and Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Charter, and the laws of armed conflict.

<snip>
Scope of the Inquiry
The Commission of Inquiry will focus on U.S. criminal conduct because of its destruction of Iraq, killing at least 125,000 persons directly by its bombing while proclaiming its own combat losses as 148, because it destroyed the economic base of Iraq and because its acts are still inflicting consequential deaths that may reach hundreds of thousands. The Commission of Inquiry will seek and accept evidence of criminal acts by any person or government, related to the Gulf conflict, because it believes international law must be applied uniformly. It believes that "victors' justice" is not law, but the extension of war by force of the prevailing party. The U.S. Senate, European Community foreign ministers, and the western press, even former Nuremberg prosecutors, have overwhelmingly called for war crimes trials for Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi leadership alone. Even Mrs. Barbara Bush has said she would like to see Saddam Hussein hanged, albeit without mentioning a trial. Comprehensive efforts to gather and evaluate evidence, objectively judge all the conduct that constitutes crimes against peace and war crimes and to present these facts for judgment to the court of world opinion requires that at least one major effort focus on the United States. The Commission of Inquiry believes its focus on U.S. criminal acts is important, proper, and the only way to bring the whole truth, a balanced perspective and impartiality in application of legal process to this great human tragedy.

Ramsey Clark
May 9, 1991

<Link to full list of charges> http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm

Like father like son!

[PDJane]

41. The way the US wages war leads to war crimes.

Period. Endit. It doesn't matter in the end whether it's a suicide bomber or some guy in an airoplane. The only difference is that the "civilized" side of this has nuclear weapons, and yes, DU is a nuclear weapon.

[Pavulon]

68. War involves killing people

there are rules that are followed by the us and Nato on how to render the enemy dead. It is not legal to dead check people. It is not legal to use a armored vehicle with a blade to bury entrenched infantry, UNLESS they are shooting.

My take is these guys were caught or turned in for murdering people. If an officer or any superior issued an ILLEGAL order they were bound to refuse it. So unless these 4 guys were the only ones given that order everyone else who was issued that order is bound to testify in court about it.

I guarantee if 30 guys heard that order someone would refuse it. They would not risk jail to lie about it. I would not.

Shoot all MAMs is blatant illegal. Not like throw a grenade in that room, or shoot that house with a tank round. Questionable orders are not always illegal. But what they are claiming is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. If they were pilots and dropped bombs on civilians, they'd be given medals.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[Karenina]

49. May ALL your troops return to you soon.

ONLY THEN will you even begin to realize what they've been subjected to...

[Disturbed]

58. Miltary personnel are obligated to refuse to carry out

Illegal Orders.

[Karenina]

60. Teenies dumped into an us/them macho killing cult mindset

Forgive me if I UNDERSTAND on some level HOW they were not able to do so and rather hold the *misanthropistration and AMERICAN CITIZENS who have abdicated their responsibility accountable. No matter. Your *MIC will return many of your children to you too injured and traumatized to do much more than struggle for the benefits they are being denied or act out. That will help weaken their families and your communities further. Good luck with blaming the kids.

[sendero]

78. I agree with you..

... you cannot start an immoral illegal war based on lies and then expect it to be conducted like a dog show.

I feel sorry for all the troops.

[Thothmes]

61. That is correct

However whether an order is illegal or not will be determined at at your general court marshall.

[Disturbed]

63. "Soldiers say officers commanded them to ‘kill

all military age males’ in Iraq." Even if this can be proven it is
not grounds for an acquittal. Following Illegal Orders is not an
excuse for murder.

[Thothmes]

65. Thats not what the soldiers said

They stated their orders were to kill all military age males at objective murray. Which was the target of that patrol.

[IsItJustMe]

62. Karma is gonna a b!tch.

[Rex]

67. As a vet, I believe it. Maybe not at one time, but now...yea.

And that makes me sad to my very core. :(

[Pavulon]

69. Questions?

Who turned them in?
Who was given the order?
How many people heard the order issued?

If anyone not in the dock testifies the order was actually given, and not an attempt to shake a murder charge, the person who issued the order should stand trial as well.

A staff Sgt. is not fresh out of boot. He knew an order like that was illegal. He was bound by law to refuse it, assuming it was issued.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

73. K&R n/t

[BreweryYardRat]

74. Horseshit. Pavulon and Squatch already explained it upthread.

These guys are a group of sociopaths trying to shift the blame off themselves. No reason to believe them at all.

[Dawggie]

76. I hadn't read this before, but have feared it from the start.

My blessings and what sort of prayers I can offer are there forthe innicents this country has killed.

May god have mercy on their souls.

May god forgive us.

This war has damed America.