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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:34 AM
Original message
are you still sure you want to eat beef?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/04/6839/


Viewers Cringe at Slaughter Video While USDA Spins (mad cow)


You wouldn’t think you could “spin” a video that shows slaughterhouse workers electric shocking downer cows, “water boarding” them, jabbing their eyes with herding paddles and ramming them with forklift blades while they squeal in pain, posted at www.hsus.org, but USDA is trying.

-snip-

Less than two years after diners in 11 restaurants in nine California counties ate meat from the first US mad cow according to the San Francisco Chronicle, newly appointed US agriculture secretary Mike Johanns who left last year vowed to reverse the ban on downer cattle.

-snip-

A year into Johanns’ tenure, the Houston Chronicle reported 29 downers untested for mad cow got into in the food supply because inspectors “did not believe that they had the authority” to go into the animals’ pens.

Meat executives tried to claim the animals suffered injury after passing inspection–which would make slaughter legal–but investigators found no records of injuries after arrival for 20 of the downers that ended up on US dinner plates.

-snip-

There’s also the fact that no one has gotten sick yet, say FSIS officials, deliberately confusing bacteria like e Coli and salmonella which cause treatable conditions that make you sick right away and can be cooked out of food with the mad cow prion which is an untreatable replicating protein that is virtually indestructible and manifests years later.

Then there’s the fact that the downers in the video aren’t battered from unremitting abuse on mega dairy farms which created mad cow disease by feeding dead cows to live ones–a cheap and plentiful protein for rBGH frenzied metabolisms–they just have broken legs and hips from unfortunate accidents, says Peterson.

-snip-

So well, restaurants who got the meat won’t be notified says Peterson, because, “I have a lot of information from this plant both on the obviously the inspectional side but also plant records…that all point to a singular conclusion that the product coming out of the plant not only meets regulatory requirements but is safe and wholesome.”

We believe their meat is safe because we believe their meat is safe.
-snip-
--------------------------------


you want to bet the neo cons have their own herds of clean, healthy beef to eat?
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Am I still sure I want to eat beef?
Yep!
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Are you a smoker also? nm
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
56. I'll stick to the OP
If you start a tread on smoking PM me. I'll respond in the appropriate thread.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #56
80. Sounds like you've had a little toooo much beef. Maybe could use some fiber in
your diet. I would recommend you have a good day but assume that would really send you over.
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
102. Guess
that means you'll not be starting your own thread? Have a nice day:)
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. "Have a nice day", exactly what do you mean by that?? nm
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #110
158. That's a polite way of saying...
fuck off. LOLOLOL :rofl:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #158
170. Very good. just trying to have some fun here. nm
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XboxWarrior Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
90. Beef?
sure......it's "What's for Dinner".

I don't care how they kill it, or if it "feels" pain.

I am a Carnivore.

I once was a vegetarian, but then I woke up and realised, (english sp) that I
too was gonna die.

I like the Rib-Eye steaks........don't care too much for the "ground" stuff.

Tonight? It's Rib-Eyes and Big Bakers........butter, garlic, and all that
fat.

MMMMMNNNNnnnnnn.

Bon Apetit.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #90
99. I guess rationalization is the key to happyness. nm
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #90
157. "I don't care how they kill it, or if it "feels" pain."
Hopefully you will never be at the receiving end of that sentence.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. hmmm, so you are all for soylent green?
:rofl:
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. only for a brief time
It only feels pain until it dies...
Then we get to BBQ it.
Some salt and pepper, quickly seared both sides, over aromatic charcoal.

Yum.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #90
174. Selfishness RULES!!1!!1!
Nice.

Selfishness is also why folks drive an H2, vote republican...
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #174
181. yep.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. did you watch the video?
http://www.hsus.org/

if you still do then you remind me of the smoker who still smokes after seeing this...

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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. It WAS a nasty video wasn't it.
But not representative of the whole industry. As far as you smoking side step I'll stick with the OP of eating beef. If you wish to start a thread on smoking please PM me and I'll respond in the appropriate thread.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
114. Don't both those lungs belong to dead people?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #114
149. Dammit you beat me to it. n/t
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 08:37 AM by Marrah_G
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. Organic, grain fed beef should be OK. grocery store ground beef is too
often fouled with feces.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #63
182. Even organic beef requires too much land and water to justify it.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #182
184. Oh sure. We should eat less meat, and if you can, stop eating meat
all together. I highly recommend "In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan.

If you are going to eat meat, eat low on the food chain. Insects give a lot of protein for their weight.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ooh, hold on...
:popcorn:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'll join you ... and spinkle some hamburger on my popcorn.
:popcorn:

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
132. Pass it along
:popcorn:

(And yes I watched the video, and no, in Bush's America this does not shock me one bit
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sure.
I buy beef from a local guy who lets his cows roam the field eating grass. He breeds his own cattle, and his cattle are butchered buy a local guy up the coast. It's all small scale, and sustainable.

It's also a bit more expensive that store bought beef.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Mike Johanns, my next Senator? What an asshole.
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winter999 Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. How many hundreds of millions of US citizens eat beef and
not one case? Seems safer than flying to me. As far as your bet, I'll take you up on that.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. there are cases - they call it Alzheimer's


and/or give it other names
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Im sorry this must be the part where you
post some kind of scientific proof that beef causes Alzheimer's... (and not hormones and crap that those of us who buy organically dont get)
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't think the poster said "cause"
It's more of a misdiagnosis. Here's a good article:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-07.htm
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Plus, "Mad Cow" can be "diagnosed" only posthumously, and only by autopsy.
Not what most relatives of "Alzheimer's" patients are going to request.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Ummm wrong
FTFA

"Once athletic, soon he couldn't walk. Then he couldn't eat. After a brain biopsy showed it was Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, his doctor could no longer offer any hope. "

A simple Biopsy of a living persons brain can reveal the cause.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Mad Cow is a variant of CJD (hence vCJD)
it is quick and dirty (avg. 6 mo. to die) and strikes younger population 30-40 y/o, unlike Alzheimers. The Cleveland Clinic is the one of the US's leading research center for this horrible malady.

Quick fact sheet here:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/vcjd/factsheet_nvcjd.htm

Journal article here:
http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Roma3_05.pdf

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. All I was pointing out is that the statement
'they can only diagnose after death' is factually incorrect..
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I am not sure about that
as I've heard, no medical examiner wants to even deal with vCJD, it is so infectious and contaminates everything it touches. Even high temps don't kill the prions. I've read alot about this subject.

http://www.cjdsurveillance.com/
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
130. The question arises because both pre and post-mortem
biopsies and autopsies are so rare. There is a possibility that a large number of alzheimers diagnoses are wrong, and a possibility that alzheimer's itself is related to vcjd. At this point a great deal is unknown, and unfortunately it seems there is little motive for research.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #43
140. Would you want your brain biopsied?
My Dad is dying of Alzheimer's or some form of dementia. Nobody wants to put a loved one through that, as there's no cure currently for any of these conditions.

An autopsy after death would determine this, but most grieving folks don't want to have that done either, and some religions prohibit it (such as Jewish).

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #140
194. Im sorry for what you are going through
But were I to start suffering dimensia and losing my memories I would want my brain biopsied so they could at least know what was wrong. A brain Biopsy is not harmful..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Amazing how easily the public can be fooled by a name change ---
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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
106. CMJ does not = alzheimers!!!
Do a TINY amount of research and you will discover that Mad Cow was EXTREMELY RARE (if it existed at all) before the 1970's. Alzheimer's (though only named in around 1900) has likely been around for centuries. A prion causiong Alzheimers is extremely unlikely.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #106
115. Sorry --- but the effects of feeding animals to animals has been known for
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 12:32 AM by defendandprotect
thousands of years --- See: Scrapie

Feeding animals other animals and offal --

Americans RETAUGHT this to Europeans about 30 years ago ---

Ah, greed --- !!!

This is technically "cannibalism" in aniamls and nature is against it ---
always has been ---
humans, too ---


Alzheimer's is a spongiform disease of the brain ---
just like CJD --- and Mad Cow ---







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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #106
141. True but Alzheimer's has increased in frequency, and some of those cases
could be mad cow. In elderly people, most doctors just assume it's Alzheimer's; they are only apt to consider CJD in younger people.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #141
204. YES . .!!! Mad Cow is Scrapie --- Alzeheimer's and CJD . . . all the same ---
They are all spongiform diseases of the brain ---
the protein marker indicates the process of turning your brain into swiss cheese ---

And it all goes back to feeding animals to other animals ---

and when we eat the animal --- we also get the disease.

LONG KNOWN ---


There's a 20 year incubation period for cows --- downers are visible --
and usually hidden from view --- even by governments.

HOWEVER, presumably other smaller animals also suffer "mad cow" -- but they are usually
slaughtered for food very early in their life cycles so you don't see the effects of
the disease -- but it is thought by those studying this that it simply isn't seen that
early on.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
75. Plus, they get abducted by aliens.
So we don't really know the true numbers.

Hey, if we're just going to make shit up...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #75
117. Well. . . how many animals are we checking . . . in Bush's USDA?
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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
105. I'm no meat eater
but you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Alzheimer's is completely separate from CMJ, which is the human version of Mad Cow. Mad Cow actually did not exist until about 1970.
It started when at about this time, Sheep with "Scrapie" were fed to cows in England. Scrapie was caused by a prion, which obviously spread to cows and propagated due to a cycle of feeding sheep AND dead cows to other cows. I can explain this in more detail if you like. Alzheimers has been described for far longer than 40 years...plus it progresses much slower than CMJ.

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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #105
113. I think what that poster is describing
is that patients who are suffering mental deterioration are often given a default diagnosis of Alzheimer's when they may actually have CJD. There is all kinds of speculation about how many "Alzheimer's" patients are actually suffering from CJD, but we can't know what those numbers really are because it's simply not tested for.

No one is suggesting that Alzheimer's is prion-related; Alzheimer's may be being overdiagnosed because symptoms are similar and there is no reason to test for CJD. Labs are actually disincentivized to do that kind of testing, both because there is no declared public health concern over CJD and because that testing could cause contamination within their facilities.

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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #113
164. This is unlikely because of the nature of CJD
CJD develops much faster than alzheimers. Therefore, your argument does not make sense. The odds that only the eldery have eaten meat with the mad cow prion in it are astronomically low. If mad cow was related to alzheimers in a significant way, we would have lots of 20-40 year olds with it as well as elderly.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #164
172. It's not *my* argument; it's reality.
"Perhaps particularly worrisome is the seeming increase in CJD deaths among young people in this country. In the 18 years between 1979 and 1996, only a single case of sporadic CJD was found in someone under 30. Whereas between 1997 and 2001, five people under 30 died of sporadic CJD. So five young Americans dying in five years, as opposed to one young case in the previous 18 years. The true prevalence of CJD among any age group in this country remains a mystery, though, in part because it is so commonly misdiagnosed.<54>

The most frequent misdiagnosis of CJD among the elderly is Alzheimer's disease.<55> Neither CJD nor Alzheimer's can be conclusively diagnosed without a brain biopsy,<56> and the symptoms and pathology of both diseases overlap. There can be spongy changes in Alzheimer's, for example, and senile Alzheimer's plaques in CJD.<57> Stanley Prusiner, the scientist who won the Nobel Prize for his discovery of prions, speculates that Alzheimer's may even turn out to be a prion disease as well.<58> In younger victims, CJD is more often misdiagnosed as multiple sclerosis or as a severe viral infection.<59>

Over the last 20 years the rates of Alzheimer's disease in the United States have skyrocketed.<60> According to the CDC, Alzheimer's Disease is now the eighth leading cause of death in the United States,<61> afflicting an estimated 4 million Americans.<62> Twenty percent or more of people clinically diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, though, are found at autopsy not to have had Alzheimer's at all.<63> A number of autopsy studies have shown that a few percent of Alzheimer's deaths may in fact be CJD. Given the new research showing that infected beef may be responsible for some sporadic CJD, thousands of Americans may already be dying because of Mad Cow disease every year.<64>

Nobel Laureate Gajdusek, for example, estimates that 1% of people showing up in Alzheimer clinics actually have CJD.<65> At Yale, out of a series of 46 patients clinically diagnosed with Alzheimer's, six were proven to have CJD at autopsy.<66> In another study of brain biopsies, out of a dozen patients diagnosed with Alzheimer's according to established criteria, three of them were actually dying from CJD.<67> An informal survey of neuropathologists registered a suspicion that CJD accounts for 2-12% of all dementias in general.<68> Two autopsy studies showed a CJD rate among dementia deaths of about 3%.<69,70> A third study, at the University of Pennsylvania, showed that 5% of patients diagnosed with dementia had CJD.<71> Although only a few hundred cases of sporadic CJD are officially reported in the U.S. annually,<72> hundreds of thousands of Americans die with dementia every year.<73> Thousands of these deaths may actually be from CJD caused by eating infected meat."

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-07.htm

CJD is being misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's and other conditions.







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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. There's a 20 year incubation period for Mad Cow ---
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
116. Or, maybe you're getting "Bushed" information . . . ???
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Beef, bison, venison, pork, elk, geese, chickens, ducks, fish,
I've been known to partake of those morsels from time to time. :)
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. We no longer buy supermarket beef unless it's organic.
Mostly we buy local/organic only. Because it's expensive we don't eat a whole lot of it—maybe once a week, tops.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Same here.
I was a vegetarian for a couple years, but my dh is not so we compromised and eat "less" meat as a family. However, stories like this make me question that choice.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Not industrial beef -- never touch the stuff
Every couple of months, I'll go to the specialty butcher and get an organic, grass-fed humanely-raised ribeye steak. That's the only time I'll eat beef.

BTW -- the rest of the commercial meat industry is just as disgusting. I don't even feed that shit to my dog.



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Steerpike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well yes.
Specifically prime rib or rib eye would do just fine aabout now. To tell the truth I really much prefer pork, but chickens nice if deep fried.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. NO WAY IN HELL
Keep eating beef and you'll kill yourself while killing the planet. I quit 13 years ago, and here's why:

Most people know that beef consumption plays a major role in the development of heart disease, strokes, and cancer. But the over-consumption of beef is also a major cause of human hunger and poverty, deforestation. spreading deserts, water pollution, water scarcity, global warming, species extinction, and animal suffering.

We in the United States are a big part or the problem. Americans consume almost a quarter of all the beef produced in the world. Every 24 hours 100,000 cattle are slaughtered in the United States; the average American consumes the meat of seven 1,100- pound animals in his or her lifetime.

HEALTH
Each year, the death toll continues to mount for consumers of beef and other red meats. According to a report by the U.S. Surgeon General, more than 70 percent of deaths in this country -- more than 1.5 million annually -- are related to diet, particularly the over- consumption of beef and other foods high in cholesterol and saturated fat. Study after study confirms that consumption of red meat is a primary factor in the development of heart disease, strokes, and colon and breast cancer. The American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Academy of Pediatrics all recommend that people reduce their consumption of red meat and other animal-derived foods, and eat more grain, fresh vegetables, and fruits instead.

Recently, the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that beef contains the highest concentration of herbicides of any food sold in America. The NAS also found that beef ranks second only to tomatoes as the food posing the greatest cancer risk due to pesticide contamination, and ranks third of all foods in insecticide contamination. Aside from smoking, there is probably no greater personal health risk than eating too much beef and other meat.
GLOBAL HUNGER
The beef addiction of the United States and other industrialized nations has set off a global food crisis. Today, hundreds of millions of cattle are being fed precious grain so that American and European consumers can enjoy the pleasures of "marbled" beef. Meanwhile, nearly one billion people suffer from hunger and malnutrition, and between 40 and 60 million people -- mostly children -- die each year from starvation and related diseases

Currently, more than 70 percent of the U.S. grain harvest -- and more than one third of the grain produced in the world is fed to cattle and other livestock. We could provide proper nourishment to more than a billion people if we used the world's agricultural lands to grow food for human consumption rather than feed for cattle and other livestock.
THE ENVIRONMENT
Forests, particularly the rain forests of Central American and the Amazon, are being burned and cleared to make way for cattle pasture. Since 1960, more than 25 percent of the Central American forests have been lost to beef production -- most of it for export to the United States and Europe. It has been estimated that for every quarter-pound fast-food hamburger made from Central American beef, 55 square feet of tropical forest -- including 165 pounds of unique species of plants and animals -- is destroyed.

Today, the world's 1.3 billion cattle are stripping vegetation and compacting and eroding soil, thus creating deserts out of grasslands. More than 60 percent of the world's rangelands have been damaged by overgrazing during the past half century. In the United States, cattle have done more to alter the environment of the West than all the highways, dams, strip mines, and power plants put together.

Cattle production is a major cause of water pollution. In the United States, cattle produce nearly one billion tons of organic waste each year. It has been estimated that cattle and other livestock account for a significant percentage of pollutants in the nation's rivers, lakes, streams and aquifers. Raising cattle also requires vast amounts of water. Nearly half the water consumed in the United States is used to grow feed for cattle and other livestock -- while our precious stores of fresh water dwindle at an alarming rate.

The grain-fed cattle complex is now a significant factor in the generation of three major gases -- carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide -- that are responsible for global warming. The burning of the world's forests for cattle pasture has released billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. The world's 1.3 billion cattle and other ruminant livestock emit 60 million tons of methane through their digestive systems directly into the atmosphere each year. Moreover, to produce feed crops for cattle requires the use of petro-chemical fertilizers which emit vast amounts of nitrous oxide. These gases are building up in the atmosphere, blocking heat from escaping the planet, and could cause a global climate change of cataclysmic proportions in the next century.

Cattle and beef production is contributing significantly to the dramatic loss of biodiversity, including species extinction, now occurring across the globe. In all major cattle producing countries, wildlife habitat is being destroyed to create cattle pasture, as in the rain forests of Central America, or the huge cattle population is destroying habitat and using up food and water needed by wildlife. In the United States and Australia, cattle ranching has resulted in the purposeful mass extermination of predator and "nuisance" species -- a virtual war on wildlife. In Africa, millions of wild animals have died of thirst or starvation after finding their migratory paths blocked by fences built to contain cattle.
ANIMAL SUFFERING
Cattle are exposed to harsh living conditions, rough handling, and often outright abuse and cruelty throughout their short lives. Cattle are routinely castrated, dehorned, and hot-iron branded without anesthestics. Cattle released on the open range must fend for themselves for several months, often succumbing to weather extremes and other dangers. Animals transported to feedlots and slaughterhouses are often shocked with electric prods, beaten, kicked, dragged and deprived of food and water for long periods. Overcrowded trucks cause broken limbs; injured and sick animals are routinely dragged out of trucks and onto the kill floor where slaughter techniques remain primitive and brutal.

The National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences estimates that the sickness, injury, and premature death of cattle represents an economic loss of $4.6 billion a year in the United States.
QUESTION AND ANSWER
Q. Don't people need to eat beef in order to stay healthy?

A. People don't need to eat beef or any other meat in order to stay healthy. In fact, just the opposite is true. There is abundant evidence which indicates that people who eat little or no, meat have fewer ilincsses and live longer than large consumers of meat.

People who eat little or no meat should eat a variety of other foods in order to meet their nutritional needs. However, the health risks of significantly reducing or eliminating animal- derived products from the diet are miniscule compared with those associated with overconsumption of beef and other meats. Those risks include heart disease, cancer and strokes. There has been no mass exodus to hospital emergancy rooms by vegetarians. However, 4,000 Americans suffer heart attacks every day -- many of them induced by the overconsumption of saturated fat and cholesterol.

In recent years, a growing number of physicians, athletes, bodybuilders, and others who are knowledgeable and concerned about health matters have reduced their consumption of meat or eliminated meat from their diets altogether.

Q. You're asking people to replace much of the beef in their diets with grains, vegetables, and fruits -- isn't Beyond Beef just a vegetarian campaign in disguise?

A. The Beyond Beef Campaign is advocating at least a 50 percent cut in beef consumption in order to reduce human hunger and poverty, environmental destruction, animal suffering, and damage to human health. Some members of the Beyond Beef coalition are vegetarians and advocate vegetarianism. Other coalition members are meat-eaters who see nothing wrong with eating small amounts of meat which has come from animals who have been humanely and sustainably raised under strict organic standards.

The beef we eliminate from our diets should not be replaced with another kind of grain-fed meat because the intensive production and consumption of other domestic animals also has many destructive effects. Eating high on the flood chain is cosly to the earth and its inhabitants.

If people reduce their beef consumption. replace at least half of the beef they used to eat with sustainably and organically raised grains, vegetables, legumes, and fruits, and refine their eating habits to select only humanely and sustainably raised beef when they do eat meat, the world and all its inhabitants will be much better off.

Q. Why does human hunger and malnutrition exist in a world of plenty?

A. There are many reasons why people are hungry; however, the misuse of agricultural land and the diversion of grain to feed livestock instead of people are primary causes of hunger in the world today.

Every nation on Earth has the resources -- enough good agricultural land -- to more than adequately feed its people. But much too much of that land is devoted to the grazing of cattle and other livestock, or to growing feed for livestock rather than food for people. Nearly half of the world's land is being used as pasture for cattle and other livestock. In addition, hundreds of millions of acres of arable land are being used to grow feed for livestock.

Even Ethiopia at the height of its famine in 1984 was using some of its arricultural land to produce linseed cake, cottonseed cake, and rapeseed meal for export to feed livestock in Europe.

Currently, one third of the world's grain is fed to livestock. In the United States, 70 percent of the grain produced is fed to livestock; and two thirds of all the grain the United States exports to other countries goes to feed livestock rather than hungry people.

This misappropiation of resources is the direct result of economic policies and programs adopted by the developing world at the urging of the industrial nations, multi-national corporations, and international aid-givers.

The United States has encouraged developing countries to climb the protein ladder in order to provide a marhet for surplus American grain. At the same time, developing countries have heen encouraged to enter the world commodities market with livestock feed to pay off their considerable debt to the first world. Today, production of livestock and livestock feed for the world market is supplanting the production of staple foods in many developing countries.

In Mexico, for example, where millions of people are chronically under-nourished, one third of the grain produced is fed to livestock. In Brazil, where 23 percent of the cultivated land is now being used to grow soybeans -- half of which is destined for export for livestock feed -- less land is available to grow corn and black beans, staples of the Brazilian peasant diet. The result has been less food at higher prices for an increasingly hungry and impoverished population.

Q. You claim that cattle are eating grain and other products such as soybeans that could feed hungry people. But don't cattle just eat materials that aren't fit for human consumption?

A. In the United States, the average animal in the feedlot system is fed about 42 percent forage with the remainder -- about 58 percent -- being grain.

During the first part of their lives, cattle are set loose on the range to graze on grasses and other plants inedible by humans. The average cow eats 900 pounds of vegetation a month.

Cattle are then transported to feedlots where they are fattened on grain. Today, more than 70 percent of the grain produced in the United States -- and one third of all the grain produced in the world is fed to cattle and other livestock. If the land used to produce feed grain were used to produce grain for human consumption, hundreds of millions of people could be fed.

Some cattle are also fed agricultural by-products. such as corn stalks, that are inedible by humans, as well as manure scrapings from hog and chicken intensive confinement "factory" farms. Some feedlots have begun experimenting feeding cattle cement dust, cardboard, paper, and industrial oils and wastes. Such "foods" do not deprive human beings of nourishment; however, it might be difficult to work up an appetite for beef raised on organic and industrial wastes.

Q. Isn't it true that only a tiny fraction of America's beef comes from the rain forests?

A. While less than 2 percent of all beef consumed in the United States comes from areas that were formerly Central American rain forests, this beef compromises most of Central America's beef exports. What is insignificant to the United States is of tremendous consequence to our southern neighbors.

Historically, the United States has been the largest consumer of Central American beef, a pattern that continues today. For example, 97 percent of Guatemala's beef exports go to the United States. Although our imports from the region as a whole have declined by more than 50 percent since 1975, the United States still imports considerable quantities of meat from Central America and southern Mexico. In 199O, those imports totaled about 50,000 tons of beef, enough to nnake more than 440 million quarter-pound hamburgers.

Although rain forest beef imports comprise only a fraction of all the beef, consumed in the United States, the environmental and human toll this "small" amount takes in Central America is enormous. Americans could easily forego the beef we import from Central America. Stopping our beef imports from this region, however, could save the remaining rain forests from further destruction and could make more land available to peasants for low-impact farming.

Q. Aren't uou overstating your claims that cattle contribute to global warming?

A. We don't think so. Cattle production contributes significantly to the production of three gases -- carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, and methane -- whose build-up in the atmosphere blocks heat from leaving the earth and thereby causes global warming.

Large amounts of carbon dioxide are released into the atmosphere whenever forests and other biomass are burned to create cattle pasture. In 1987, about 1.2 hillion tons of carbon dioxide were released into the atmosphere from clearing and burning the forests of the Amazon, in large part to create pasture for cattle. In that year alone, deforestation in the Amazon contributed 9 percent of the total worldwide contribution to global warming from all sources. Additional gases are released by the annual burning of grasslands and agricultural wastes created by growing livestock feed.

More CO2 is created by our highly mechanized agriculture which uses up huge amounts of fossil fuels. With 70 percent of all U.S. grain production now devoted to livestock feed, the energy burned just to produce the feed represents a significant addition to CO2. It now takes the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline to produce a pound of grain-fed beef in the United States. To sustain the yearly beef habit of an average family of four requires the consumption of more than 260 gallons fuel. When that fuel is burned it releases 2.5 tons of additional carbon dioxide as much CO2 as the average car emits in six months.

Moreover, producing feed crops for grain-fed cattle requires the use of petrochemical fertilizers that emit nitrous oxide. In the past forty years, the use of chemical fertilizers has increased dramatically. Nitrous oxitie released from fertilizer and other sources now accounts for 6 percent of the global warming effect.

Finally, cattle emit methane, a potent global warming gas, through belching and fatulation. While methane is also emitted from peat bogs, rice paddies, and landfills, the increase in the livestock population and the burning of forests and other biomass accounts for much of the increase in methane emissions over the past several decades. Methane emissions are responsible for 18 percent of the global warming trend.

Because a methane molecule traps 25 times as much heat from the sun as a molecule of CO2 some scientists predict that methane may become the primary global warming gas in the next fifty years. Already, scientists estimate that more than 500 million tons of methane may be released into the air each year. The world's 1.3 billion cattle and other ruminant livestock emit about 60 million tons of the total, or 12 percent of all the methane released into the atmosphere. The burning of forests, grasslands, and agricultural wastes releases an additional 50 to 100 million tons of methane.

Q. You claim that cattle frequently withstand rough treatment and even cruelty. But don't beef producers' have to treat their animals well since they depend upon them for their livelihood?

A. Certainly it is in the producer's interest to bring healthy, intact animals to market; but for the most part, cattle producers' concern for animals begins and ends with profit. The beef industry is big business, and the animals unfortunate enough to be caught up in it are often treated as commodities, not as the sensitive living creatures they are. There is often a wide gap between the minimum care that producers' must provide to their animals in order to turn a profit and the actual needs of the animals.

Much of the suffering endured by cattle is inflicted simply to make life easier for ranchers. For example, castration, dehorning, and hot-iron branding -- all performed without anesthetics do not benefit the animals; they make the animals easier to control and identify. Cattle and other livestock also often withstand brutal handling; they are frequently shocked with electric prods, kicked, beaten, poked, and dragged.

Transportation of cattle and other farm animals is a major animal welfare problem. Overcrowded trucks, failure to properly water and reed the animals during long trips, exposure to temperature extremes en route, and rough handling result in millions of dollars of losses for the meat industry each year.

The industry does try to recoup as much of the loss as possible, however. "Downers," animals who are so badly injured during transportation they cannot walk off the trucks, are often chained by the neck or a leg and dragged to the slaughterhouse floor where they may wait hours in great pain to be butchered.

Animals who arrive at stockyards too sick to be slaughtered are often thrown onto what is called the "dead pile" and left to die of thirst, starvation, or freezing temperatures. All these abuses have been documented on videotape and on film by animal protection organizations.

Financial losses represented by thousands of sick and injured animals are merely written off by the industry as a cost of doing business. To humanely euthanize such animals would further cut into industry profits.

Q. If cattle and beef producers' treated their animals badly, wouldn't they be charged with cruelty under the anti-cruelty laws?

A. There is no federal law to ensure that famrm animals have proper care, suitable living conditions, or protection from abuse and cruelty.

0n the federal level, there are only two laws that pertain to farm animals: the Humane Slaughter Act and the Twenty-eight Hour Law. The first requires animals to be stunned before slaughter -- except for kosher and other religious slaughter. The second, which pertains only to the approximately 5 percent of animals who are transported by rail and over water, requires that animals be given rest food, and water if they are in transit more than twenty-eight hours.

The federal Animal Welfare Act specifically exempts from its protections animals used for food and fiber --- except when such animals are used in biomedical and other laboratory experiments.

Animals used for food and fiber are also speci fically exempted from many state anti-cruelty laws. In other states, beef industry husbandry and handling pactices that are considered routine -- such as castration without anesthesia, and even dragging downers to the slaughterhouse floor -- are either implicitly not covered by anti-cruelty laws or not enforced. Few prosecutors in cattle-producing states would consider bringing cruelty charges against powerful cattlemen.

In many states, if a cattle rancher were to treat his dog as he routinely treats his cattle, he would likely be arrested, tried, fined and/or imprisoned, and his dog would be confiscated. The uneven application of anti-cruelty laws reflects the blind eye that society casts toward animals used for food.

Q. How will the Beyond Beef campaign affect the family farm?

A. The family farm has been among the chief victims of the powerful beef industry lobby; every small farmer in America knows this. For years, the beef lobby has been able to secure cheap subsidized feed at the expense of American farmers whose costs of production often exceed the price of feed set by the government. Small scale ranchers are also exploited by the beef industry giants who are now able to control and manipulate the price of beef through various market arrangements.

While Beyond Beef is asking people to cut their beef consumption in half, the campaign is also encouraging consumers to demand humanely and sustainably raised beef when they do eat meat. The Beyond Beef campaign will help preserve the family farm by providing a new market niche for beef that has come from cattle who are humanely raised under sustainable, organic standards. It is impossible to raise cattle under such standards in giant corporate feedlots: only the family farm is capable of filling this new market. Small farmers are encouraged to make a transition to humane, sustainable husbantlry practices to fill this new and important need.

The Beyond Beef campaign is also advocating a bold new farm policy in the United States -- one that encourages a transition from feed to food production by rewarding the nation's small farmers with higher prices for growing food for human consumption. We believe that it is past time for the government to move its priorities away from policies and programs that subsidize feed for livestock and toward programs that subsidize food production for needy human beings, The Government should greatly expand its aid programs to distribute grain surpluses to needy people at home and abroad.

Q. What about beef industry workers?

Beef industry workers are among the most exploited inhumanely treated workers in the United States. Meat-packers, for example, suffer from one of the highest rates of injury of all occupations. Working conditions are often dehumanizing and primitive. Employee turnover is as high as 4.7 percent a month at some plants -- a situation that is often deliberately encouraged in order to discourage union activity. According to Eleanor Kennelly of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, "A meat- packing plant is like nothing you've ever seen or could imagine. it's like a vision of hell."

The Beyond Beef coalition believes that, given a choice of jobs, most workers would not choose to do the grisly, miserable, dangerous work of slaughtering and butchering animals. Beyond Beef supports extended employment compensation and free education and retraining, for all beef industry workers who lose their jobs as a result of a reduction in beef consumption. Beyond Reef supports union efforts to help their members and advocates the setting up of a "superfund" for all workers who are displaced as a result of enlightened social change and the enactment of environmental protection and other laws.

Q. How can reducing the amount of beef I eat contribute to solving the world's problems?

A. Cutting down on the number of hamburgers you eat won't solve all the world's problems -- but it would be a great start. One of the most eflective thing each of us can do to improve life on the planet is to reduce our consumption of meat -- especially beef.

Imagine what would happen if every American decided today to cut his or her beef consumption in half.

First, millions of animal lives would be spared. The average American currently consumes the meat of seven cows during his or her lifetime. By cutting our beef consumption in half, each of us would save at least three animals from being born into a life of suffering and violent death.

Next, our personal health would improve. By reducing beef consumption and replacing at least half the beef we eat with grains, legumes, vegetables, and fruits, we would reduce our intaks of saturated fat and cholesterol and thereby reduce the likelihood of developing, and dying from, heart disease, cancer, and other ailments. We would feel better, live longer, and the nation's health costs would plummet.

The global environment would also benefit. The beef-production assault would slow, and the world's forests, soil, water, air, and species would have a reprieve -- a chance to regenerate themselves.

A 50 percent reduction in beef consumption would also free more agricultural land that could be used to grow food for hungry people. And cutting U.S. beef imports in half would help free some lands around the world for use by indigenous populations to grow their own food.

Many Americans have been looking for a way to make a personal contribution to the wellbeing of the planet. Reducing our consumption of beef is an empowering and powerful act. By changing our diets, we can change the world.
FACT SHEET: ENVIRONMENTAL DEVASTATION
THE REAL COSTS OF BEEF:
ENVIRONMENTAL
DEVASTATION

Cattle and beef production is a primary threat to the global environment. It is a major contributor to deforestation, soil erosion and desertification, water scarcity, water pollution, depletion of fossil fuels, global warming, and loss of biodiversity.

Deforestation

* Cattle ranching is a primary cause of deforestation in Latin America. Since 1960, more than one quarter of all Central. American forests have been razed to make pasture for cattle. Nearly 70 percent of deforested land in Panama and Costa Pica is now pasture.1
* Some 40,000 square miles of Amazon forest were cleared for cattle ranching and other commercial development between 1966 and 1983. Brazil estimates that 38 percent of its rain forest was destroyed for cattle pasture.2
* Just one quarter-pound hamburger imported from Latin America requires the clearing of 6 square yards of rain forest and the destruction of 165 pounds of living matter including 20 to 30 different plant species, 100 insect species, and dozens of bird, mammal, and reptile species. 3

Soil Erosion and Desertification

* Cattle production is turning productive land into barren desert in the American West and throughout the world. Soil erosion and desertification is caused directly by cattle and other livestock overgrazing. Overcultivation of the land, improper irrigation techniques, and deforestation are also principal causes of erosion and desertification, and cattle production is a primary factor in each case.
* Cattle degrade the land by stripping vegetation and compacting the earth. Each animal foraging on the open range eats 900 pounds of vegetation every month. Their powerful hoofs trample vegetation and crush the soil with an impact of 24 pounds per square inch.4
* As much as 85 percent of U.S. western rangeland, nearly 685 million acres, is being degraded by overgrazing and other problems, according to a 1991 United Nations report. The study estimates that 430 million acres in the American West is suffering a 25 to 50 percent yield reduction, largely because of overgrazing.5
* The United States has lost one third of its topsoil. An estimated six of the seven billion tons of eroded soil is directly attributable to grazing and unsustainable methods of producing feed crops for cattle and other livestock.6
* Each pound of feedlot steak costs about 35 pounds of eroded American topsoil, according to the Worldwatch Institute.7

Water Scarcity

* Nearly half of the total amount of water used annually in the U. S. goes to grow feed and provide drinking water for cattle and other livestock. Producing a pound of grain-fed steak requires the use of hundreds of gallons of water. Producing a pound of beef protein often requires up to fifteen times more water than producing an equivalent amount of plant protein.8
* U.S. fresh water reserves have declined precipitously as a result of excess water use for cattle and other livestock. U.S. water shortages, especially in the West, have now reached critical levels. Overdrafts now exceed replenishments by 25 percent.9
* The great Ogallala aquifer, one of the world's largest fresh water reserves, is already half depleted in Kansas, Texas, and New Mexico. In California. where 42 percent of irrigation water is used for feed or livestock production, water tables have dropped so low that in some areas the earth is sinking under the vacuum. Some U.S. reservoirs and aquifers are now at their lowest levels since the end of the last Ice Age.11

Water Pollution

* Organic waste from cattle and other livestock, pesticides, chemical fertilizers, and agricultural salts and sediments are the primary non-point source of water pollution in the U.S.11
* Cattle produce nearly 1 billion tons of organic waste each year. The average feedlot steer produces more than 47 pounds ofmanure every twenty-four hours. Nearly 500,000 pounds of manure are produced daily on a standard 10,000- head feedlot. This is the rough equivalent of what a city of 110,000 would produce in human waste. There are 42,000 feedlots in 13 U.S. states.12

Depletion of Fossil Fuels

* Intensive animal agriculture uses a dis proportionate amount of fossil fuels. Supplying the world with a typical American meat-based diet would deplete all world oil reserves in just a few years.13
* It now takes the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline to produce a pound of grainfed beef in the United States. The annual beef consumption of an average American family of four requires more than 260 gallons of fuel and releases 2.5 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere, as much as the average car over a six month period.14

Global Warming

* Cattle and beef production is a significant factor in the emission of three of the four global warming gases -- carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, and methane.15
* Much of the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere is directly attributable to beef production: burning forests to make way for cattle pasture and burning massive tracts of agricultural waste from cattle feed crops. When the fifty-five square feet of rain forest needed to produce one quarter-pound hamburger is burned for pasture, 500 pounds of CO2 is released into the atmosphere.16
* CO2 is also generated by the fuel used in the highly mechanized agricultural production of feed crops for cattle and other livestock. With 70 percent of all U.S. grain production now used for livestock feed, the CO2 emitted as a direct result is significant.17
* Petrochemical fertilizers used to produce feed crops for grain-fed cattle release nitrous oxide, another greenhouse gas. Worldwide, the use of fertilizers has increased dramatically from 14 million tons in 1950 to 143 million tons in 1989. Nitrous oxide now accounts for 6 percent of the global warming effect.18
* Cattle emit methane, another greenhouse gas, through belching and flatulation. Scientists estimate that more than 500 million tons of methane are released each year and that the world's 1.3 billion cattle and other ruminant livestock emit approximately 60 million tons or 12 percent of the total from all sources. Methane is a serious problem because one methane molecule traps 25 times as much solar heat as a molecule of CO2.19

Loss of Biodiversity

* U.S. cattle production has caused a significant loss of biodiversity on both public and private lands. More plant species in the U.S. have been eliminated or threatened by livestock grazing than by any other cause, according to the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO).20
* Riparian zones -- the narrow strips of land that run alongside rivers and streams where most of the range flora and fauna are concentrated -- have been the hardest hit by cattle grazing. More than 90 percent of the original riparian zones of Arizona and New Mexico are gone, according to the Arizona State Park Department. Colorado and Idaho have also been hard hit. The GAO reports that "poorly managed livestock grazing is the major cause of degraded riparian habitat on federal rangelands."21
* Unable to compete with cattle for food, wild animals are disappearing from the rangs. Pronghorn have decreased from 15 million a century ago to less than 271,000 today. Bighorn sheep, once numbering over 2 million, are now less than 20,000. The elk population has plummeted from 2 million to less than 455,000.22
* The government has worked with ranchers to make cattle grazing the predominant use of Western public lands. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has long favored ranching over other uses. BLM sprays herbicides over large tracts of range eliminating vegetation eaten by wild animals and replacing it with monocultures of grasses favored by cattle.23
* Under pressure from ranchers, the U.S. government exterminates tens of thousands of predator and "nuisance" animals each year. In 1989, a partial list of animals killed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Animal Damage Control Program included 86,502 coyotes, 7,158 foxes, 236 black bears, 1,220 bobcats, and 80 wolves. In 1988, 4.6 million birds, 9,000 beavers, 76,000 coyotes, 5,000 raccoons, 300 black bears, and 200 mountain lions, among others, were killed. Some 400 pet dogs and 100 cats were also inadvertently killed. Extermination methods used include poisoning, shooting, gassing, and burning animals in their dens.24
* The predator "control" program cost American taxpayers $29.4 million in 1990 -- more than the amount of losses caused by wild animals.25
* Tens of thousands of wild horses and burros have been rounded up by the federal government because ranchers claim they compete with their cattle for forage. The horses and burros are held in corrals, costing taxpayers millions of dollars per year. Many wild horses have ended up at slaughterhouses.
* For several years, cattle ranchers have blocked efforts to re-introduce the wolf, an endangered species, into the wild, as required by the U.S. Endangered Species Act.

FOOTNOTES

* <1> Catherine Caulfield, "A Reporter at Large: The Rain Forests." New Yorker, January 14, 1985, 79.
* <2> Ibid, 49.
* <3> Julie Denslow and Christine Padoch, People of the Tropical Rainforest (Berkeley: University of California Press. 1988), 169.
* <4> John Lancaster, "Public Land. Private Profit," Washington Post, A1, A8. A9; Lynn Jacobs, Waste of the West. Puhlic Lands Ranching (Lynn Jacobs: Tuscon. AZ, 1991). 15.
* <5> Myra Klockenbrinli, "The New Range War Has the Desert As Foe," New York Times. August 20, 1991, G4.
* <6> Frances Moore Lappe Diet for a Small Planet (New York: Ballantine Books, 1982), 80.
* <7> Alan Durning, "Cost of Beef for Health and Habitat," Los Angeles Times, September 21, 1986, V3.
* <8> Lappe, Dietfor a Small Planer, 76-77.
* <9> David Pimentel and Carl W. Hall. Food and Natural Resources (San Diego: Academic Press, 1989),41.
* <10> Sandra Postel, Water: Rethinking Management in an Age of Scarcity, Worldwatch Paper 61 (1984), 20.
* <11> Pimentel and Hall, 89.
* <12>M. E. Ensminger, Animal Science (Danville, IL: Interstate Publishers, 1991), 187, table 5-9: Based on analysis by John Sweeten, Texas A&M, for the National Cattlemen's Association, 1990.
* <13> Pimentel and Hall, 35.
* <14> Alan Duming, "Cost of Beef For Health and Habitat," Los Angeles Times, 3; Based on 65 pounds of beef consumed per person per year. The auto CO2 emissions comparisons come from Andrew Kimbrell, "On the Road," in Jeremy Rifkin, ed., The Green Lifestyle Handbook (New York, NY:Henry Holt and Co., 1990), 33-42.
* <15> Fred Pearce, "Methane: The Hidden Greenhouse Gas," New Scientist, May 6, 1989; Alan Duming and Holly Brough, Taking Stock: Animal Farming and the Environment, (Washington D.C.: Worldwatch Institute), 17; World Resources Institute, World Resources 1990-91, 355.
* <16> Greenhouse Crisis Statistical Review, Sources: World Resources Institute, Rainforssr Action Network. U.S. Department of Agriculture. and Worldwatch Institute in U.S. News and World Report, Oct 31, 1988.
* <17> David Pimentel, "Waste in Agriculture and Food Sectors: Environmental and Social Costs," paper for Gross National Waste Product Forum, Arlington. VA. 1989, 9-10. Pimentel concludes that substituting a grass feeding livestock system for the present grain and grass system would reduce energy inputs about 60 percent.
* <18> Lester Brown et al., State of the World 1990 (New Yorer, NY: W.W. Norton and Co., 1990), 67; Fred Pearce, 38.
* <19> Fred Pearce, 37; Methane emissions from live stock from World Resources Institute et al. 1990-91. 346. Table 24.1; Cattle emissions as a per cent of livestock emissions from Michael Gibbs and Kathleen Hogan, "Methane," EPA Journal, March/April 1990.
* <20> George Wuerthner. "The Price is Wrong," Sierra, September/October 1990. 40-41.
* <21> Wuerthner, 40: Jon Luoma. "Discouraging Words," Audubon, September 1986,92.
* <22> Wuerthner, 41-42; Denzel Ferguson and Nancy Ferguson. Sacrcd Cows At The Puhlic Trough, (Bend. OR: Maverick Publications. 1983). 116.
* <23> Ferguson and Ferguson, 158; Lynn Jacobs, 237.
* <24> Keith Schneider, "Mediating the Federal War of the Jungle," New York Times, July 9. 1991,4E; Carol Grunewald, ed, Animal Activist Alert, 8:3 (Washington D.C.: Humane Society of the United States, 1990), 3.
* <25> Carol Grunewald, ed, Animal Activist Alert, 8:3, 3.

FACT SHEET: DAMAGED HEALTH
THE REAL COSTS OF BEEF:
DAMAGED HEALTH

Beef contains high levels of cholesterol and saturated fat and is frequently contaminated by chemicals and disease. Beef may be one of the more unhealthy foods on the market today.

* Nearly 70 percent, or 1.5 million of the 2.1 million deaths in the United States in 1987, were from diseases associated with diet -- particularly diets high in saturated fat and cholesterol, according to a U.S. Surgeon General's report.1
* Many scientific studies have found a high correlation between the consumption of red meat -- which is high in saturated fats and cholesterol -- and heart disease, stroke. and colon and breast cancer.2
* In 1990, the largest study ever done on the health effects of consuming animalderived foods confirmed the results of previous studies showing a high correlation between meat consumption and the incidence of heart disease and cancer. Participating reseachers followed the eating habits of 6,500 people living in twenty-five procinces in China.3
* The Chinese study found that Chinese consume 20 percent more calories than Americans, but that Americans are 25 percent fatter. That's because 37 percent of the calories in the U.S. diet comes from fat, whereas less than 15 percent of the calories in the rural Chinese diet comes from far. The study also found that 70 percent of the protein in the U'estern diet conies from animal sources and 30 percent from plants. In China, only 11 percent comes from animal products and 89 percent from plants.4
* The American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Academy of Pediatrics are just a few of the medical, scientific, and professional associations that recommend a reduction in the consumption of red meat and other animal-derived foods and a shift to a more vegetarian diet.5
* Beef contains the highest concentration of herbicides of any food sold in America, according to the National Research Council (NRC) of the National Academy of Sciences. Eighty percent of all the herbicides used in the U.S. are sprayed on corn and soybeans, which are used primarily as feed for cattle. When consumed by cattle, the chemicals accumulate in their bodies and are passed onto consumers in finished cuts of beef.6
* Beef ranks second only to tomatoes as the food posing the greatest cancer risk due to pesticide contamination. It ranks third of all foods in insecticide contamination. Of all food on the market today, pesticide-tainted beef represents nearly 11 percent of the total cancer risk to consumers from pesticides, according to the NRC.7
* More than 95 percent of all feedlot- raised cattle in the United States are currently receiving growth-promoting hormones and other pharmaceuticals, residues of Which may be present in finished cuts of beef.8
* In order to speed weight gain, feedlot managers administer growth-stimulating hormones and feed additives. Anabolic steroids, in the form of small time-release pellets, are implanted in the animals' ears. The hormones slowly seep into the bloodstream, increasing hormone levels by two to five times. Cattle are given estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone.9
* In 1988, more than 15 million pounds of antibiotics were used as feed additives for livestock in the United States. The drugs were used to promote growth and fight the diseases which run rampant in cramped. contaminated pens and feedlots. While the cattle industry claims that it has discontinued the widespread use of antibiotics in cattle feed, antibiotics are still being given to dairy cows, which account for 15 percent of all beef consumed in the United States. Antibiotic residues often show up in the meat people consume, making the human population increasingly vulnerable to more virulent strains of disease-causing bacteria.10
* Veal calves are so sick that antibiotics and other drugs are routinely used to keep many of them alive until slaughter. Contrary to veal industry claims, no drugs have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for use in formulafed veal calves. Some of the drugs used routinely, such as sulfamethazine, are carcinogenic. Drug residues are often present in veal purchased by consumers.11
* In a 1985 report, the National Academy of Sciences announced that current federal meat inspection procedures are inadequate to protect the public from meat-related diseases, and recommended ameliorative steps which have never been adopted. Instead, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), working with the meat-packing industry, developed a new, experimental inspection system -- the Streamlined Inspection System (SIS)-- the goal of which is to increase online meat production by up to 40 percent.12
* The SIS virtually eliminates the role of the federal meat inspector by placing responsibility for carcass inspection on packing house employees. Federal meat inspectors no longer inspect every carcass on the production line; instead, they examine less than one percent of the carcasses.13
* Under the SIS, thousands of carcasses with pneumonia, measles, and other diseases, peritonitis, abcesses, fecal and insect contamination, and contaminated heads (called "puke heads" because they are filled with rumen content) are passing through inspection on their way to dinner tables across the country.14
* In 1990, federal meat inspectors from across the country flooded the USDA with affidavits describing major problems throughout the new SIS system. Recently, USDA inspectors sent a letter to the National Academy of Sciences raising concerns about the wholesomeness of the U.S. beef supply.15
* Recent discoveries have suggested a possible link between new cattle diseases and disease in humans. Bovine leukemia virus (BLV), an insect-borne retrovirus that causes malignancy in cattle and which can be found in 20 percent of cattle and 60 percent of herds in the United States, is suspected of having a causal link to some forms of human leukemia. BLV antibodies have been found in human leukemia patients and BLV has infecfed human cells in vitro.16
* Bovine immunodeficiency virus (BIV), which was discovered to be widespread in American cattle herds in the 1980s, genetically resembles the human HIV (AIDS) virus and, like the AIDS virus in humans, is believed to suppress the immune systems of cattle, making them susceptible to a wide range of diseases and infections. Scientists have successfully infected human cells with BIV, and at least one study suggested that BIV "may play a role in either malignant or slow viruses in man." In 1991,the USDA stated that it does not yet know "whether exposure to BIV proteins causes human sera to... become HIV positive."17
* The beef packing industry has the second highest rate of injury in American industry -- three times the national average. Injury rates in some plants exceed 85 percent, according to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.18

FOOTNOTES

* <1> Surgeon General's Report on Nutrition and Health, U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, 1988. Pub. no. 88-50210.
* <2> George A Bray, "Overweight is Risking Fate..." in Richard J. Wurtman and Judith Wunman, eds. Human Obesity, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 45)0 (1987). 21; Gina Kolata, "Animal Fat is Tied To Colon Cancer," New York Times, December 13, 1990; Waiter Willett et al.. "Relationship of Meat, Fat, and Fiber Intake to the Risk of Colon Cancer in Prospective Study Among Women," New England Journal of Medicine, 333:24 (1990), 1663; J. Raloff, "Breast Cancer Rise: Due to Dietary Fat?" Science News, April 21, 1(1)90. 215; Ibid.. 302: Geoffrey Howe et al.. "A Conort Study of Fat Intake and the Risk of Breast Cancer." Journal of National Cancer Institute, 85:5 (March 6, 1991).
* <3> Jane E. Brody, ''Huge Study of Diet Indicts Fat and Meat," New York Times, May 8, 1990, C1.
* <4> Nanci Hellmich, "In Healthful Living. East Beats West," USA Today, June 6, 1990; Anne Simon Moffat, "China: A Living Lab for Epidemology," Science 248, May 4, 1990. 554.
* <5> Quoted in Dorothy Mayes, "3 Ounces Per Day," Beef, April 1989, 33; Quoted in K.A. Fackelman, "Health Groups find Consensus on Fat in Diet," Science News 137, March 3, 1990, 132.
* <6> National Research Council, Board on Agriculture, Alternative Agriculture, 44; National Research Council, Board on Agriculture, Regularing Pesticides in Food, 78. Table 3-20 to 22.
* <7> National Research Council, Board on Agriculture, Regulating Pesticides in Food, 78-80, Tables 3-20 to 22.
* <8> Fred Kuchler et al. "Regulating Food Safety: The Case of Animal Gronth Hormones," National Food Review July-December 1989, 26.
* <9> Jim Mason and Peter Singer, Animal Factories (New York. NY: Harmony· Books, 1990), 51; Jeannine Kenney and Dick Fallert, "Livestock Hormone in the United States," National Food Review, July-September 1989, 22-23.
* <10> Mason and Singer, Animal Factories, 70, 83-84; FDA Veterinarian, ''Antihiotics in Animal Feeds Risk Assessment," May/June 1989.
* <11> Mason and Singer, Animal Factories, 81-89.
* <12> Quoted in commentary from Carol Foreman to Linda Carey, May 15, 1989, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Food Safety and Inspection Service, Public Docket No. 83-008P, 53 Federal Register 48262, November 30. 1988, Public Comments on Food Safety and Inspection Service Proposed Rule on Streamlined Inspection System for Meat Safety, 5; Government Accountability Project. Fact Sheet on Streamlined Inspection System, August 16, 1989, 1.

FACT SHEET: GLOBAL HUNGER AND POVERTY
THE REAL COSTS OF BEEF:
GLOBAL HUNGER AND
POVERTY

Beef production causes human hunger and poverty by diverting grain and cropland to support livestock instead of people. In developing countries, beef production perpetuates and intensifies poverty and injustice, particularly if beef or livestock feed is produced for export.

* Seventy percent of all U.S. grain -- and one third of the world's total grain harvest -- is fed to cattle and other livestock. At the same time, between 40 and 60 million people die each year from hunger and diseases related to hunger. As many as one billion suffer from chronic hunger and malnourishment.1
* U.S. livestock -- mostly cattle -- consumes almost twice as much grain as is eaten by the entire American population. Globally, about 600 million tons of grain are fed to livestock, much of it to cattle.2
* Two-thirds of all U.S. grain exports foes to feed cattle and other livestock rather than hungry people.3
* In Africa, nearly one in three people is undernourished. In Latin America, nearly one out of every seven people goes to bed hungry each night. In Asia and the Pacific, 22 percent of the people live at the edge of starvation. In the Near East, one in nine is underfed.4
* Chronic hunger and related disease affect more than 1.3 billion people, according to the World Health Organization. Never before in human history has such a large percentage of our species -- more than 20 percent -- been undernourished.5
* Undernutrition affects nearly 40 percent of all children in developing nations and contributes directly to an estimated 60 percent of all childhood deaths, according to the U.S. Agency for International Development. More than 15 million children die every year from diseases resulting from, or complicated by, undernourishment.6
* If worldwide agricultural production were shifted fron? livestock feed to food grains for direct human consumption, more than a billion people could be fed -- the precise number which currently suffer from hunger and malnourishment.8
* Feeding grain to livestock is an extremely wasteful method of producing protein. Feedlot cattle require nine pounds of feed to make one pound of gain. Only 11 percent of the feed goes to produce the beef itself. The rest is burned off as energy in the conversion process, used to maintain normal body functions, absorbed into parts of the cattle that are not eaten -- such as hair or bones -- or excreted.8
* Cattle have a feed protein conversion efficiency of only 6 percent, producing less than 50 kg of flesh protein from more than 790 kg of plant protein. A feedlot steer consumes 2,700 pounds of grain by the time it is ready for slaughter.9
* Asian adults consume between 300 and 400 pounds of grain a year; three-fourths or more of the diet of the average Asian is composed of grain. A middle-class American, by contrast, consumes over a ton of grain each year, 80 percent of it through eating cattle and other grain-fed livestock.10
* Two out of every three people around the world consume a primarily vegetarian diet. With one-third of global grain output now going to cattle and other livestock, and with the human population growing by almost 20 percent in the next decade, a worldwide food crisis is imminent.11
* Three quaners of America's public western land -- covering 40 percent of the eleven western statss -- is leased to cattlemen at prices far below market value.12
* Nearly half of the earth's landmass is used as pasture for cattle and other livestock. On very rich grasslands, two and a half acres can support a cow for a year. On marginal grazing land, 50 or more acres may be required.13
* In the 1960s, with the help of loans from the World Bank and the Inter- American Development Bank, many Central and South America governments began converting millions of acres of tropical rain forest and cropland to pastureland for the international beef market. Between 1971 and 1977, more than $3.5 billion in loans and technical assistance went to Latin America for cattle production.14
* Many major U.S. corporations invested heavily in beef production throughout Central America in the 1970s and 80s, including Borden, United Brands, and International Foods. Other American multinational companies such as Cargill, Ralston Purina, W.R. Grace, Weyerhauser-, Crown Zellerbach, and Fort Dodge Labs, provided most of the technological support for the Central American beef industry, from frozen semen to refrigeration equipment, grass seeds, feed, and medicine. 15
* The beef industry in Central America has enriched the lives of a select few, pauperized much of the rural peasantry, and spawned widespread social unrest and political upheaval. More than half the rural families in Central America -- 35 million people -- are now landless or own too little land to support themselves, while powerful ranchers and large corporations continue to acquire more land for pasture.16
* In Costa Rica, cattle interests cleared 80 percent of the tropical forests in just 20 years, turning half the arable land into cattle pastures. Today, just 2,000 powerful ranchincg families own over half the productive land in Costa Rica, grazing 2 million cattle most of whose meat is exported to the United States.17
* In Guatemala, less than 3 percent of the population owns 70 percent of the agriculitural land, much of it used for raising cattle. Nearly one third of Guatemala's beef production was exported to the U.S. in 1990.18
* In Honduras, land used for cattle pasture increased from just over 40 percent in 1952 to more than 60 percent in 1974. Total beef production tripled between 1960 and 1980 to over 62,000 metric tons annually. In 1990, more than 30 percent of the beef produced in Honduras was exported to the United States.19
* In Nicaragua, beef production increased threefold and beef exports increased five and a half times between 1960 and 1980.20
* By the mid 1980s, Central America had 80 percent more cattle than 20 years before, and produced 170 percent more beef.21
* In Brazil, 4.5 percent of the landowners own 81 percent of the farmland, while 70 percent of the rural households are landless. Between 1966 and 1983, nearly 40,000 square miles of Amazon forest were cleared for commercial development. The Brazilian government estimated that 38 percent of all the rain forest destroyed during that period was attributable to large-scale cattle development benefitting only a few wealthy ranchers.22
* In developing countries, the poor receive no benefit from cattle ranching. Modern beef production is capital intensive but not labor intensive. The average rain forest cattle ranch employs one person per 2,000 head of cattle, or about one person per twelve square miles. By contrast, peasant agriculture can often sustain a hundred people per square mile.23
* Latin American countries are using more of their land to graze cattle, and to grow feed crops. In Mexico, where millions of people are malnourished, one-third of the grain produced is being fed to livestock. Twenty-five years ago, livestock consumed less than 6 percent of Mexico's grain.24
* When land in developing countries is used to produce livestock feed, much of it for export, less land is available to peasant farmers to grow their own food, and so less food is available. As a result, staple food prices rise, and the impact is mostly felt by the poor. In Brazil, black beans, long a staple food for the poor, are becoming more expensive as farmers have switched to growing soybeans for the more lucrative international feed market.25

FOOTNOTES

* <1> U.S. Department of Agriculture, Economic Research Service. World Agricultural Supply and Demand Estimates, WASDE-256, Tables 256-6, -7, -16, -19. -23, World Bank, Poverty and Hunger (Washington DC: World Bank, 1986), 24: Susan Oakie. "Health Crisis Confronts 1.3 Billion," Washington Post, September 25, 1989, A1.
* <2> USDA, Economic Research Service, World Agricultural Supply and Demand Estimares, WASDE-256, Tables 256-6, -7, -16, -19, -23; World Bank, Poverty. and Hunger. (Washington DC: World Bank, 1986), 24. For two times the entire American population see USDA figures. For third world grain production see World Bank report.
* <3> USDA, Economic Research Service, WASDE 256-6,-16.
* <4> World Resources Institute, World Resources 1990-91, 87; CTnited Nations World Food Council, "The Global State of Hunger and Malnutrition and the Impact of Economic Adjustment on Food and Hunger," World Food Council, Thirteenth Ministerial Session, Report by the Secretariat, Beijing, China, 1987, 16.
* <5> Susan Okie, Al.
* <6> Katrina Galway et al., Child Survival: Risks and the Road to Health; (Columbia, MD: Institute for Resource Development, 1987), 31.
* <7> David Pimentel. Food Energy And The Future of Society (New York: Wiley, 1979), 26. U.S Department of Agriculture, Economic Research Service. World Agricultural Supply and Demand Estimates, WASDE-256, July 11, 1991,table 256-6; World Bank, Poverty and Hunger (Washington DC: World Bank, 1986). 24. Pimentel estimates that a conversion of the present American grass/grain livestock system to a totally grass-fed system would free up in the United States alone about 130 million tons of grain for direct human consumption, enough to feed about 400 million people. Today worldwide, about one-third of the 1.7 billion metric tons of total grain production is fed to livestock, which would suggest, using Pimentel's rationale, that a totally grass-fed livestock system worldwide might free enough grain up to feed over a billion people.
* <8> M.E. Ensminger, Animal Science (Danville, IL: Interstate Publishers, 1991). 23, fig 1-25, 20.
* <9> David Pimentel and Marcia Pimentel, Fond Energy and Society (New York: Wiley, 1979), 58; Ensminger, 23:"Assuming a feeding period of 140 davs and a gain of 450 pounds in the lot, the total market weight (10501h) would represent 2.57 Ib of feed grain expended for each pound of gain (450 x 6 =2,700)."
* <10> Paul Ehrlich et al., Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment (San Francisco: W.H. Freeman. 1977), 315: Ensminger 20, 27; Pimentel et al., " Energy and Land Constraints in Food Protein production." Science, issue 190; 754.
* <11> David Pimentel and Carl W. Hall, eds., Food and Natural Resources (San Diego: Academic Press, 1989), 38; Jack Doyle, Altered Harvest (New York, NY: Viking/Penguin, 1985), 288; Lester Brown et al., Stare of the World 1990 (New York, NY: W.W. Norton and Co., 1990), 5, table 1-1.
* <12> Ensminger, 22; Lynn Jacobs, "Amazing Graze: How the Livestock Industry is Ruining the American West." in Desertification ControlBullerin. No. 17 (Nairobi, Kenya: United Nations Environment Program, 1988); Public Lands Ranching Statistics.l990 (Free Our Public Lands. P.O Box 5784, Tuscon AZ 85703).
* <13> Paul Ehrlich and Ann Ehrlich, The Population Explosion (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990), 35; David Pimentel and Carl Hall, eds. Food and Natural Resources, 80.
* <14> Office of Technology Assessment, Technologies to Sustain Tropical Forest Resources, U.S. Congress, OTA-F-214, March 1984, Forest Resources, 96-97.
* <15> Tom Barry, Roots of Rebellion (Boston: South End Press, 1987), 84.
* <16> Norman Myers, The Primary Source (New York: W.W. Nonon, 1983), 133.
* <17> Catherine Caulfield, "A Reporter at Large: The Rain Forests," New Yorker, Jan. 14, 1985, 79; Norman Meyers, 134.
* <18> Norman Meyers, 133; export and production figures from USDA, Foreign Agriculture Service as Summarized by Scott Lewis, "The Hamburger Connection Revisited," Rainforest Action Network, San Francisco, 1991.
* <19> Billie DeWalt. "The Cattle are Eating the Forest," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, January 1983, 19; Export and production figures from USDA, Foreign Agriculture Service as summarized by Scott Leuis.
* <20> Meyers 133; Export figures from USDA.
* <21> DeWalt, 19.
* <22> Caulfield. 49; lames Parsons, "The Scourge of Cows." Whole Earth Review, Spring 1988, 43.
* <23> Caulfield, 80.
* <24> David Barkin and Billie DeWalt. "Sorghum, the Internationalization of Capital and the Mexican Food Crisis," paper presented at the American Anthropological Association meeting. Denver, November 16 1983. 16; acreage figures from Scott Lewis, "The Hamburger Connection Revisited..."; grain figures from Barkin and DeWalt. p16; Steven Sanderson. The Transformation ofMesican Agriculture (Princeton: Princeton University Press,
* <25> Associacao Promorora de Estudus da Economica, A Economica Brasil-eira e Suas perspectives. Apecan XXIX, 1990 (Rio de Janeiro: APEC. 1990). 5. FAO of the United Nations, Trade, Commerce. Commercio. 1989 Yearbook (Rome:Italy: FAO, 1990) Vol 43, 29; Femando Homen de Melo, "Unbalanced Technological Change and Income Disparity in a Semi-Open Economy: The Case of Brazil," in Tullis F. Lammond and W. Ladd Hollist, eds. Food, State, and International Political Economy (Lincoln:University of Nebraska, 1986), 262-275..

QUOTABLE QUOTES
HEALTH

"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."

-- WALTER WILLETT, M.D., of Brigham and Women's Hospital,
director of a study that found a close correlation between red
meat consumption and colon cancer

"Usually, the first thing a country does in the course of economic development is to introduce a lot of livestock. Our data are showing that this is not a very smart move and the Chinese are listening. They are realizing that animal-based agriculture is not the way to go....We are basically a vegetarian species and should be eating a wide variety of plant food and minimizing our intake of animal foods....
"Once people start introducing animal products into their diet, that's when the mischief starts."

-- T. COLIN CAMPBELL, PH.D., of Cornell University, director of
a study of 6,500 Chinese that found a close correlation between
meat consumption and the incidence of heart disease and cancer

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital."

-- NEAL. D. BARNARD, M.D., President, Physicians Committee
for Responsihle Medicine. Washington, D.C.

"When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings."

-- William C. Roberts, M.D., editor ofThe American Journal
of Cardiology

"All red meat contains saturated fat. There is no such thing as truly lean meat. Trimming away the edge ring of fat around a steak really does not lower the fat content significantly. People who have red meat (trimmed or untrimmed) as a regular feature of their diets suffer in far greater numbers from heart attacks and strokes."

-- MICHAEL KLAPER, M.D., Medical Director,
EarthSave Foundation, Santa Cruz, California

"The thousands of people who have suffered food poisoning after eating beef will, no doubt, appreciate that their beef was aesthetically acceptable, even though it made them ill. 'Lovely to look at, dangerous to eat' is not a standard that is likely to help beef sales."

-- CAROL TUCKER FOREMAN, Assistant Secretary of Agriculture
during the Carter administration, commenting on the inadequacy
of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Streamlined (Meat)
inspection System (SIS)

"As happened with tobacco, health warnings about meat eating are multiplying, and awareness of the environmental effects of meat production is rising. Just as cigarettes lost their allure, meat is losing its social cachet in some countries. Food marketers in the United Kingdom estimate that 2 million people in that country are strict vegetarians. More important, the number of people limiting meat in their diets is rising rapidly. An estimated 6 million people in the United Kingdom dine on meatless meals most of the time."

-- ALAN B. DURNING AND HOLLY B. BROUGH, in Taking Stock:
Animal Farming and the Environment, Worldwatch Institute,
Washington, D.C., 1991

ENVIRONMENT

"An alien ecologist observing... Earth might conclude that cattle is the dominant animal species in our biosphere."

-- DAVID HAMILTON WRIGHT, PH.D., Emery University biologist

"The impact of countless hooves and mouths over the years has done more to alter the type of vegetation and land forms of the West than all the water projects, strip mines, power plants, freeways, and subdivision developments combined."

-- PHILIP FRADKIN in Audubon, National Audubon Society,
New York, New York

"Most of the public lands in the West, and especially the Southwest, are what you might call 'cow burnt.' Almost anywhere and everywhere you goin the American West you find hordes of ....They are a pest and a plague. They pollute our springs and streams and rivers. They infest our canyons, valleys, meadows, and forests. They graze off the native bluestems and grama and bunch grasses, leaving behind jungles of prickly pear. They trample down the native forbs and shrubs and cacti. They spread the exotic cheatgrass, the Russian thistle, and the crested wheat grass. Weeds. Even when the cattle are not physically present, you see the dung and the flies and the mud and the dust and the general destruction. If you don't see it, you'll smell it. The whole American West Stinks of cattle."

-- The late EDWARD ABBEY, conservationist and author, in a
speech before cattlemen at the University of Montana in 1985

"You can buy the land out there now for the same price as a couple of bottles of beer per acre. When you've got half a million acres and 20,000 head of cattle, you can leave the lousy place and go live in Paris, Hawaii, Switzerland, or anywhere you choose."

-- American rancher who owns grazing land in the Amazon,
descrihing the attitude of cattle colonists in the Brazilian rain
forest

"We got hooked on grain-fed meat just as we got hooked on gas guzzling automobiles. Big cars 'made sense' only when oil was cheap; grain-fed meat 'makes sense' only because the true costs of producing it are not counted."

-- FRANCES MOORE LAPPE , in Diet for a Small Planet

"A reduction in beef and other meat consumption is the most potent single act you can take to halt the destruction of our environment and preserve our natural resources. Our choices do matter. What's healthiest for each of us personally is also healthiest for the life support system of our precious, but wounded planet."

-- JOHN ROBBINS, author of Diet for a New America, and
President, EarthSave Foundation, Santa Cruz, California

HUNGER AND POVERTY

"It seems disingenuous for the intellectual elite of the first world to dwell on the subject of too many babies being born in the second and third-world nations while virtually ignoring the overpopulation of cattle and the realities of a food chain that robs the poor of sustenance to feed the rich a steady diet of grain-fed meat."

-- JEREMY RIFKIN, author of Beyond Beef, The Rise and Fall of
the Cattle Culture, and President of the Greenhouse Crisis
Foundation, Washington, D.C.

"A meat-fed world now appears a chimera. World grain production has grown more slowly than population since 1984, and farmers lack new methods for repeating the gains of the 'green revolution.' Supporting the world's current population of 5.4 bilion people on an American-style diet would require two-and-a-half times as much grain as the world's farmers produce for all purposes. A future world of 8 billion to 14 billion people eating the American ration of 220 grams of grain-fed meat a day can be nothing but a flight of fancy."

-- ALAN B. DURNING AND HOLLY B. BROUGH,
Worldwatch Institute, Washington, D.C.

"There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals . About 2,000 pounds of concentrates must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...."

-- M.E. ENSMINGER, PH.D., internationally recognized animal
agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science
Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of,
Consultants-Agriservices , Clovis, California

"Changing eating habits in the North is an important link in the chain of events needed to create environmentally sustainable development that meets people's needs. The Beyond Beef campaign is an important step in that direction."

-- DR. WALDEN BELLO, Executive Director, Food First/The
Institute for Food and Development Policy, San Francisco,
California

"Suppose food were distributed equally. If everyone in the world ate as Americans do, less than half the present world population could be fed on the record harvests of 1985 and 1986. Of course, everyone doesn't have to eat like Americans. About a third of the world grain harvest -- the staples of the human feeding base -- is fed to animals to produce eggs, milk, and meat for American- style diets. Wouldn't feeding that grain directly to people solve the problem? If everyone were willing to eat an essentially vegetarian diet, that additional grain would allow perhaps a billion more people to be fed with 1986 production."

-- PAUL R. EHRLICH AND ANNE H. EHRLICH, authors Of
The Population Explosion, 1990

"Family farmers are victims of public policy that gives preference to feeding animals over feeding people. This has encouraged the cheap grain policy of this nation and has made the Beef Cartel the biggest hog at the trough."

-- HOWARD LYMAN, Executive Director, Beyond Beef
campaign, former senior lobbyist for the National Farmers
Union

ANIMAL SUFFERING

"In my opinion, one of the greatest animal-welfare problems is the physical abuse of livestock during transportation.... Typical abuses I have witnessed with alarming frequency are: hitting, beating, use of badly maintained trucks, jabbing of short objects into animals, and deliberate cruelty."

-- TEMPLE GRANDIN, PH.D., internationally recognized livestock
handling consultant and hoard memher of the meat industry's
Livestock Conservation Institute

"For most humans, especially for those in modern urban and suburban communities, the most direct form of contact with non-human animals is at meal time: we eat them....The use and abuse of animals raised for food far exceeds, in sheer numbers of animals affected, any other kind of mistreatment."

-- PETER SINGER, author of Animal Liberation, and professor of
philosophy at Monash University, Melbourne, Australia

"The amount of meat lost each year through careless handling and brutality would be enough to feed a million Americans for a year.

-- JOHN MCFARLANE, Executive Director, The Council for
Livestock Protection, a meat industry organization

"I know, in my soul, that to eat a creature who is raised to be eaten, and who never has a chance to be a real being, is unhealthy. It's like...you're just eating misery. You're eating a bitter life."

--ALICE WALKER, author and poet

"in fact, if one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people."

-- RUTH HARRISON, author of Animal Machines

"Yet saddest of all fates, surely, is to have lost that sense of the holiness of life altogether; that we commit the blasphemy of bringing thousands of lives to a cruel and terrifying death or of making those lives a living death -- and feel nothing."

-- THE RIGHT REVEREND JOHN AUSTIN BAKER, Bishop of
Salishury, England, commenting on the cruelty of modern animal
agriculture

"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity."

-- RALPH WALDO EMERSON in Fate

FAMILY FARM POLICY
BEYOND BEEF FARM POLICY
By Howard Lyman, Executive
Director Beyond Beef campaign, former
senior lobbyist for the National
Farmers Union; and Mark Ritchie,
Executive Director, Institute for
Agriculture and Trade Policy

To an intelligent being from anothter planet, U.S. food and agricultural policies and programs would appear deranged. Today, U.S. taxpayers are helping to support an agricultural system that feeds livestock before human beings, devastates peasant farmers, causes food shortages and hunger for millions of people in developing countries. and forces tens of thousands of small American farmers out of business. The current system also promotes the production and consumption of fatty and chemical-laden animal-derived foods that are killing us, and is ruining and poisoning the very soil and water we need to keep our agricultural system running.

Beyond Beef is promoting a fundamental restructuring of U.S. food and agriculture policy in order to reverse these destructive trends. We need to make a transition from feed to food production by rewarding the nation's small farmers with higher prices for growing food for people instead of feed for livestock. Those who wish to continue producing grain-fed beef should have to pay the true market value of the grain.

The world can no longer afford the social and environmental costs of producing grain-fed, or even grass-fed, beef at current levels. Reducing the production and consumption of beef by at least 50 percent will help free agricultural land to grow food for human consumption rather than feed for livestock. Fewer cattle will also lessen the environmental toll on the world's remaining forests and grasslands. Encouraging consumers who continue to consume some beef to demand beef from cattle that are humanely raised under sustainable standards will help encourage a new commercial market for organic beef -- a market niche that can be filled by the family farm.

Only the small family farmer can produce beef and other farm products humanely and sustainably. The Beyond Beef program is working to restore the position of the family farm in American life.

In the United States today, three voracious multi-national corporations hold a near total monopoly on beef production. Their priority is cheap livestock feed. U.S. government policies support these corporations by keeping market prices below the cost of production; American taxpayers are subsidizing the production of beef.

The small family farmer is in a box. He must produce more product at a return below the cost of production in an attempt to spread his fixed cost over more volume. This dilemma makes the family farmer easy prey for the huge agribusiness monopolies that dictate the rules of the game. Unable to get enough income, the family farmer is forced to abandon beef production altogether in favor of maximum yield production of monoculture feed grain. Even then, he's not receiving a high enough price for the feed to cover his costs. Moreover, attempts to increase yields requires the use of more and more chemical fertilizers that, in the end, are self-defeating because they increase costs and lower yields in the long run -- they are also polluting the environment.

Grain sold in the world market for a price that is below the cost of production is also devastating third world farmers. Unlike their American counterparts, however, they are not receiving taxpayer subsidies to supplement their income. They must either stop farming, try to get ajob in the city, or expand agricultural production into environmentally sensitive areas such as the rain forest.

Efforts by progressive farm organizations to establish fair prices for corn, wheat, and other crops have been consistently blocked by the giant agribusiness corporations that feed cattle in huge feedlots. The owners of these "beef factories" want to pay the lowest possible price for feed, and they don't care how many small and mediumsized family farmers go out of business or which rain forest gets destroyed. Their only concern is maximum shortterm profit.

If consumers unite with family farmers to break the monopoly power of agribusiness, it can lead the way to both financial security for family farmers and the elimination of ecologically unsound beef production.

Farmers and consumers also need to work together to defeat new government proposals which would open the U.S. market to greatly expanded amounts of imported beef. Most of this imported beef is produced on rain forest land in Latin America, making it extremely low priced. Not only would the expansion of beef imports accelerate rain forest destruction, it would drive down even further the price paid to family farmers, pushing many tens of thousands out of business and leaving the market solely in the hands of the huge conglomerates.

For the moment, corporate control over the livestock industry means that farmers and consumers will have to establish a number of alternative marketing routes in order to meet the demand for organically raised beef. We need to follow the lead of other countries, where consumer and farmer groups have agreed on specific standards for price, quality, and ecological considerations, and then established a special label for meats complying with these standards.

The Beyond Beef campaign will challenge the unwarranted power amassed by America's agribusiness corporations and the cattle and beef industry giants... and promote a new commercial market for organically raised beef helping to restore a viable market share for the nation's family farmers.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. kick
nt
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. False Premise
"Most people know that beef consumption plays a major role in the development of heart disease, strokes, and cancer."

No *overating beef* plays a role just like over consumption of alcohol.

"Each year, the death toll continues to mount for consumers of beef and other red meats. According to a report by the U.S. Surgeon General, more than 70 percent of deaths in this country -- more than 1.5 million annually -- are related to diet, particularly the over- consumption of beef and other foods high in cholesterol and saturated fat."

Again this is the *OVERCONSUMPTION*

"Recently, the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that beef contains the highest concentration of herbicides of any food sold in America."

Not Organic beef

"A. People don't need to eat beef or any other meat in order to stay healthy. In fact, just the opposite is true. There is abundant evidence which indicates that people who eat little or no, meat have fewer ilincsses and live longer than large consumers of meat."

There is a scientific idiom I suggest you look into, correlation does not equal causality.. The Vegans I know take a crap load of supplements and have a very healty work out schedule. Of the meat eaters I know who dont overeat, take vitamins and other supliments, and work out their is little health difference.

"The Beyond Beef Campaign is advocating at least a 50 percent cut in beef consumption in order to reduce human hunger and poverty, environmental destruction, animal suffering, and damage to human health. Some members of the Beyond Beef coalition are vegetarians and advocate vegetarianism."

Beyond beef might be for reduction 'officially' but every member I have ever come into contact with is of the mind all or nothing. You are no different you mouth the words 'reduction' to look balanced but spit on anyone who eats even a healthy amount of sustainability raised beef.

"There are many reasons why people are hungry; however, the misuse of agricultural land and the diversion of grain to feed livestock instead of people are primary causes of hunger in the world today."

Sorry but no, the primary cause is more likely wealth inequality more than enough food for the world is produced but the religion of veganism has to tie everything to meat..
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. "religion of veganism"
This explains a lot, thanks.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. that's all ye need to know
that post isn't even worth a response. One whopping straw man after another. Denial of the facts in an effort to justify one's greed and addictions will never CHANGE the facts.

There's no hope for some people. Sadly, they are the ones taking away hope for the rest of us unfortunate enough to share the planet with them.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Straw man?
Please you set up a beautiful scare crow in the first sentence when you said 'eating meat causes these health problems' when *every source you posted said *overeating meat*. Thats called a distortion aimed at pushing an agenda..
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Dont get me wrong
Edited on Wed Feb-06-08 03:34 PM by DadOf2LittleAngels
I know many vegans who I respect and dont get into my face about every issue from Global warming to crime being the fault of meat. These folks I get along great with and swap recipes with (I do vegan baking for the Angels as one is Milk and the other Egg allergic).

But the folks who get on DU and preach who eating meat is evil are as close as you can get to religion without a Mass.. Because their ideology is the solution to *all* the worlds problems.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
100. No, I got you right.
Thanks for the clarity.
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Steerpike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
144. Nice long post
I ate some leftover almond chicken as I read it.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. yes i am sure. i buy organic beef, that is not factory farmed.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Same here.
I buy direct from the guy who raises them. Grass-fed, antibiotic-free, the bonus is what a superior product it is. I don't even eat steak in restaurants anymore because it just tastes bad.

Buffalo is also good. I get bison burgers if they are an option.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
103. Here too.
We haven't eaten CAFO beef for years. This stuff has been going on in the beef industry for a long time. In my house it's organic, grass-fed, local beef or forget it.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. medium rare please.
thanks.
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Proveit Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Forget beef
Eat grass fed bison...much better for you, lower in fat than chicken, no growth hormones, antibiotics, and most are raised with minimal intervention
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sure.
Just because there are cruel pet owners it doesn't mean I'm going to stop owning pets.

And just because there are cruel slaughter house workers it doesn't mean I'll stop eating beef.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. There is nothing rational about your analogy.
You as a pet owner are not participating in the cruelty that others might subject their own pets to.

If you purchase beef that has come from cows who were slaughtered cruelly, you are indirectly participating
in that cruelty. And by buying beef, you insure that this horrific process continues.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Pff.
There's nothing rational about the argument that because some slaughter house workers got caught on video abusing animals that the whole system is intrinsically cruel.
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
65. holy shit I agree with you!!!
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
72. If you do not think the system is cruel,
then have the courage to go to a slaughter house and watch the killing for a couple of hours and see if you
could stand it.

Have you ever watched how the corporations kill animals for food even on video? I think if you had, you would not be going Pff.

It is our denial that allows the meat industry to operate in the shadows. If you are going to continue to eat meat,
and that is your choice, be intellectually honest and acknowledge that it is a vastly cruel industry.

No Pffs are going to change that.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Slaughter houses use humane methods of killing animals.
It's required by law. You've apparently got a video of people breaking the law, and you're trying to say that it represents how it works.

You're really in no position to be talking about intellectual honesty.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Have you seen it?
I have, many videos, many times. I have not seen the video referenced here. I could not watch this cruelty again.

You are unbelievable, if you think they follow any laws. They are rarely inspected. And the cruelty continues on a daily basis.

Cows stunned, but still conscious when they are hosted by their hind leg and skinned alive.

Pigs scalded alive in boiling water.

Chickens, too, boiled alive. There aren't any laws to even address the cruelty of poultry. They are not even considered
animals under the current laws.

Have you watched any videos on the killing? Ever?

This cruelty is a hard thing to face if you are still eating meat. But it continues because so many are willing to pretend
that it is not happening. Go ahead and eat meat. All I am asking you, is to be honest about how that meat gets to your table.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. This is why I mention intellectual honesty.
because both you know and I know that boiling animals alive in water is not the standard operating procedure for slaughtering animals.

This is reductio ad absurdum.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. It happens regularly.
Gawd, do the research and find out for yourself. If you have not done the research, making stuff up just doesn't fly.

And you are the one with credibility issues. This is an issue I have researched and studied for over 30 years.

How about you? Watched one video yet?

Your argument has nothing to do with reality.
You want what you are saying to be true because you do not want to deal with the consequences if you are wrong.



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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #86
101. Don't try to argue reality with that one.
Screaming at a wall is more effective and fulfilling.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #86
169. Fine then, cite some numbers.
If you've been studying it for thirty years, I'm sure you'll have plenty of valid statistics to back up your claims.

The video, you'll have to admit, is irrelevant.
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cushla_machree Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #83
240. just because there are standards
doesn't mean they are followed. No one ever inspects those places. Most of the animals aren't even protected under humane laws, because they are 'food' therefore 'things' instead of beings. You people here need to stop being ignorant about what is really happening in these factory farms. I eat meat occasionally, yet i don't deny what is happening and what needs to be stopped. Most of the responses here are sickening.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #74
118. Eh . . . how about Square One --- read "the Jungle" --- and understand
that things are probably even worse now ---

or do you think that BUSH fixed it --- ???
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #118
168. I've read the Jungle.
And if you really think things are worse now, then by all means, give me your bank account number. I know a Nigerian prince who wants to deposit a large sum of money into it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #168
176. I have no personal experience with this slaughter house reality ---
it is what is being reported by those who do watch what is happening ---
and supposedly it is WORSE ---

The USDA permits 17% fecal matter can remain on carcasses, for one thing ---

For another, the management of domestic animals is cruel and brutal --- even beyond
the slaughterhouse times.

They are also heavily drugged to prevent illnesses CAUSED by their close quarters and
constant milking and constant pregnancies in order to produce the milk ---

All of these conditions effect what you are finally eating ---

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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #72
153. There's a big slaughterhouse near here and anyone I've ever known who has worked there
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 11:07 AM by gollygee
has continued to eat meat.

Edited to add that I did take a tour there once and I still eat meat.
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
150. It's not just some workers, it's the entire factory farm industry,
factory farms are cruel. They also pollute our environment.

http://www.sierraclub.org/factoryfarms/
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. I haven't eaten hamburger in years. It seems like a timebomb that will detonate
in 20-40 years.


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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Chance of Getting Mad Cow
Still considerably less than being struck by lightning.

I'll roll the dice on that.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. Do you RISK getting struck by lightning, though? Stand in a puddle? Play golf? Shower?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Just Makes My Point
One could argue that by eating mean, I'm trying to get Mad Cow...and still have lesser of a chance of dying from it than I do of dying from lighting strike, which I activly try to avoid.

I'll adjust my argument thusly: "I eat beef, on average, twice a week and there's STILL a smaller chance of getting Mad Cow than there is of being struck by lightning, which I take care to avoid!"

Thanks.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
120. How do you know what the odds are---? Could be we're simply not
TESTING and not reporting and hiding downed animals ---

or --- do you trust BUSH government agencies to do their jobs --- ???


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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #120
187. I know that millions of people eat beef on any given day
and none of them seem to get mad cow.

What are these BUSH government agencies you speak of? Are these agencies that Bush set up, or are they the same agencies who were around during the Clinton administration, and the Bush 1.0 administration, and the Bonzo administration...


Again, if you're worried about dying from Mad Cow tainted beef, I'd like to introduce you to the realm of statistical improbability.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. I still go outside.
Even though my risk of getting skin cancer from sunlight far exceeds my chances of getting mad cow.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
81. How about your risk of getting cancer?
Meat eating substantially increases the risks of certain cancers.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=85770


And it doesn't help our chances of solving global warming either.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1856817&page=1
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #81
189. I'm Just a Gambler by Nature I Guess
Eating twinkies increases your chance of diabites but I love those little yellow cream filled bastards. Again, moderation is key. I don't eat a 16oz steak every meal (or even every week). As someone upthread said, worrying about getting cancer from eating meat is about as unwiedly and argument as worrying about getting cancer from being in the sun a lot. Unless you plan to live your life in an environmentally controlled padded room, there's a little bit of risk in just about everything.

As for the environmental effect of eating meat...I'm willing to put my carbon footprint up against just about anyone.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. CJD is nothing to mess with
I will never eat meat....

<snip>

NARRATOR: Doctors thought that Stephen Churchill might have CJD, or Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, a rare brain ailment in the same family as mad cow disease. Called spongiform encephalopathies—spongy brain disease—these illnesses riddle their victim's brains with holes. Did Stephen Churchill get CJD from infected beef? And if so, was the country on the brink of a human epidemic? An outbreak of a similar illness offered a chilling clue. Early this century a strange new disease appeared in the highlands of Papua-New Guinea. It was called "kuru," which means "to tremble with fear" in the native language. Within years it killed thousands of the Fore people, but was unknown elsewhere in the world. In 1957, scientists traveled there to uncover the cause of this mysterious ailment. One of them, a young American pediatrician named Carlton Gajdusek, would one day win the Nobel Prize for this work.

DR. PAUL BROWN: They found a population that was dying from this disease, but primarily affecting children of both sexes equally and young adult women. The first symptoms were a little incoordination. They would stagger a little bit when they walked. Little by little, over a period of months, this became sufficiently severe so that they were unable to walk unaided. In time, the people were unable even to stand and therefore became helpless. Most people with this disease died within 9 months.

NARRATOR: Scientists investigated every possible cause of this illness, from malnutrition to genetic problems.

DR. PAUL BROWN: The answer turned out, in fact, to be very simple: these people were cannibals. It was clearly being transmitted from person to person by cannibalism.

NARRATOR: Members of this tribe ate their dead relatives as an act of homage during funeral rites.

DR. PAUL BROWN: In the course of cannibalistic ritual feasting, the body was cut up into parts, and the men reserved the best parts for themselves, and the best parts were muscle. The remaining parts of the body, including brain and pancreas and liver and kidney and intestines, were eaten by the women and the children.

NARRATOR: The disease was passed on as women and children ate the infected brains of their dead relatives. Many developed kuru, and when they died, they were ritually eaten, escalating this deadly epidemic. This tragic cycle was broken when cannibalism among the Fore people ended in the 1960s, but the incubation period of this disease is so long that the last victims are still dying today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2505braineater.html
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Would you get on a plane, or drive a car?
Statistically speaking, both are for more dangerous to your health.

Also unsure what cannibalism has to do with it.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. sheesh
read the article. And messing with a disease like CJD which can take up to 30 years to manifest itself, is stupid.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. I read it
Since I have no plan to resort to cannibalism anytime soon and do not fear a 0.000001% chance of getting mad cow and more than I fear being struck by lightning or eaten by a shark, I see little cause for my personal concern in eating beef.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
89. Do You Own Stock in the Beef Industry?
Because you are trying harder than you should.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yes
In fact I think Ill make meatloaf tonight for the family..

We make them in a muffin pan so its easier for the kids to eat it and we make a truple batch so we can freeze some of them for a quick dinner in the future..
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negativenihil Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. YUP!
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
82. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Your picture is a slice of a cow corpse.

Not a pretty thing to behold.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. Made me hungry..
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negativenihil Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #82
148. yawn n/t
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. Beef is murder
Juicy, succulent murder, wrapped in bacon and topped with herbed butter. :yoiks:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. ...and some only get the message when they get sick ---
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. LOL!
You owe me a keyboard.. Now off to get a salad (with some ham and turkey of course..)
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
136. If it is, so is broccoli.
After all, vegans kill to get their food, so they're kinda hypocritical.

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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #136
216. Please, tell me how I'm a hypocrite.
Even "kinda."

Fire at will.

Expect a response.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
34. The single, MOST effective, contribution an individual can make
..toward protecting the environment and limiting their personal addition to green house gasses is:

Stop Eating Meat!


Or so I've heard.
I wonder if this includes locally grown and butchered, pasture grazed meat?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I think all meat
especially the mass produced mega corporate meats.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. We don't allow meat in our homes...neither us nor our pets
I can't stand the thought of it.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
96. WTF?
Cats are obligate carnivores. If you abstain from meat, I respect your convictions, but if you own cats, they must eat meat. Vegan substitutes, from what I've heard so far, just don't work.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #96
121. Not everyone lives with cats. nt
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
142. Careful with the cats; some have gone blind from vegeterian diets. They need taurine for vision;
even some so-called commercial cat food brands sold in health food stores have NO taurine.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
98. How about not having children?
That's a far bigger impact to the environment than eating a hamburger.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. I do think that eating your children
would have a net plus effect on the environmrnt.
I would caution you to have them tested first.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. k+r
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
38. I stopped when I became part of the population that can no longer give blood, for having spent too
much time in the UK.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
122. I really LOVED when they wiped out all the herds NOT because of Mad Cow . . .
but because of "hoof and mouth" . . . oh, yeah --- !!!


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. Besides a few readily ignoring the health damage and damage to planet ---
I don't see anyone commenting on this cruelty which occurs as we slaughter 12 million animals each day ---

As Ghandi said . . . "all violence begins at the end of your fork" ---

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I noticed that too.
Actually, that isn't true. I LOOKED for and expected it from the start, and was disappointed as expected.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. If you are making a case against eating beef to entirely selfish people
then the only facts one can put before them that are of any use at all are ones that address their self interest. They don't give a crap about pain and suffering because it's not their pain and suffering, and because they'll comfort themselves by saying "But I care MORE about people", as if the human heart is so limited that it can't care for multiple things at any given time. Compassion for fellow living things is a GOOD thing, but that basic fact is lost on many. You'll hear the same kinds of arguments for eating beef as you will for smoking cigarettes; bottom line-they'll do what makes them feel good, screw the facts and screw anyone or anything they cause harm to. It's just another sad symptom of living in a society that celebrates selfishness and greed above above love, compassion, and the welfare of all.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. It would seem that aware people would be interested in preserving
the planet --- without which our our species can't exist. So, there's more than "selfishness" at play here --- it's suicidal ignoring of reality!

You also touch on compassion as a "good thing" -- IMO, a spiritual positive which is very important to me --

Their short-sightedness also extends to the time when people were treated as these animals are now being treated ---

It's also a society which still, too often, celebrates the violent --- the macho --- from sports to war.

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. I dont think a man killing a cow is any more cruel
than an orca killing a seal or a seal killing a penguin or a penguin killing a fish..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. Nature is not violent in the sense that humans are ---
We do not need to "kill" for food, nor are we part of nature's clean up crew ---

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. we dont need to kill our food?
Well Im not into live prey (Sushi is as close as I come) so killing it is about the only option I have. People are omnivorous and while Americans eat way too much meat there is nothing unhealthy, immoral or unnatural about eating meat. People who state meat is not part of the natural human diet are unable to point me to a place on the planet which *naturally* grows a sufficiently diverse crop for a long enough period of the year to feed a person in a healthy manner. Sure we now have farming and fishing techniques to fill the gap but that does not render meat eating 'unnatural' for humans..

Penguins are not part of natures clean up crew (Im assuming you mean sharks, lions, .... animals that cull the weak from a population) yet its not wrong for them to eat a part of their diet.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #73
107. Look up "need".
The answer is no.

"Prey" is so funny coming from such a species like us. The average person wouldn't know prey from a turnip, and sure as shit couldn't play the role of predator.

Fucking poseurs the lot of 'em.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #107
129. I eat meat because its part of a balanced diet
Something needs to die and its morally no different than any other animal eating something else..

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #129
185. Actually, no . . . the government now acknowledges the positives
of a vegetarian diet ---

And -- if you were getting straighter info, they'd probably be recommending a VEGAN diet ---

"Something needs to die" . . . ??
"No different than any other animal eating something else" . . ?


There is a difference; you have no need to "kill" ---

Many other species are part of the clean up crew of nature --- not always understandable.

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #185
193. Oh well if the government says so...
"of a vegetarian diet ---"

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/nutrition/child_nutrition/vegetarian.htm

"Any potential risks of vegetarianism seem to be related to the type of vegetarian diet, i.e. the foods that are excluded. Vegan diets are more likely to be associated with malnutrition, whereas children eating a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet consume diets closer to recommendations than children whose diets include meat. Their pre-pubertal growth is at least as good as children consuming meat. In general, the greater the degree of dietary restriction, the greater the risk of nutritional deficiency."

"Particular attention is needed for vegetarian mothers that breast feed. Without careful consideration of nutrition, these infants may be at risk of vitamin and mineral deficiency. Providing the maternal diet is adequate, breast milk will be nutritionally complete for around the first 6 months of life. Specific attention must be paid to the mother’s vitamin D, calcium and iron intakes, with a particular focus on Vitamin B12, which may need to be supplemented in vegan mothers. Neurological damage in infancy has been associated with severe Vitamin B12 deficiency."

"Protein
Vegetable and pulse proteins have a lower concentration and range of essential amino acids than protein from animal or fish sources. To ensure infants and children get all essential amino acids appropriate mixes of plant foods are desirable. The inclusion of eggs and dairy to the diet will ensure this."

"Energy
If the staple foods of the child’s vegetarian diet are excessively high in fibre, it is difficult for a child to achieve adequate energy intakes. N-3 fatty acid intake that is believed to play a role in the health of the retina and central nervous system may also be low due to the absence of the major sources meat and fish. A combination of oils is desirable including the use of soy and canola oils to provide linolenic acid."

"Iron
Can be provided from plant sources like infant rice cereal, other cereals, dried fruit, baked beans and green leafy vegetables. Bioavailability is poorer from vegetarian sources and absorption will be enhanced by the inclusion of a good source of Vitamin C taken at the same time. Anaemia is probably both the main and the most serious risk for vegetarian children; however this is also the case for children who do eat meat."

"Zinc
Is found mainly in meat and fish and also in some legumes and nuts. Low intakes of zinc may affect height growth and taste acuity. There may be poor bioavailability of zinc from vegetarian and vegan sources, therefore a higher than expected intake may be required."

"Vitamin B12 and Calcium
These nutrients are of particular concern in vegan diets or if intake of dairy products is low. Breast feeding mothers who are vegan must ensure an adequate Vitamin B12 intake or supplement. In non breast-fed vegan children the use of soy formula is recommended till around 2 years of age."

--

Saying something does not make it true and having to supplement a diet with vitamins to make it work doe *not* make it healthier. Finally allergies to things used to supplement a lack of meat like soy, legumes, Bananas, NUTS are *FAR* more common than allergies to red meat and other mammal meat (like pork)

=============================

"You dont need to kill"

Neither does a chimp, they can forgo complete protiens as well but as noted above the dietary gymnastics needed to supplement for forgoing our natural diet can be intensive.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #73
177. Do you know what a blind spot is . . .
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 12:07 AM by defendandprotect
Here's what I said . . .

Nature is not violent in the sense that humans are ---
We do not need to "kill" for food, nor are we part of nature's clean up crew ---


I did not recommend that you eat raw animals ---
but you seemed unable to understand that we don't "need to kill animals to survive."

Grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts satisfy any human need ---
including Vitamin B ---

In fact, the "protein" that you get from eating animals is harmful to the body --

Ask a doctor if eating beef is "unhealthy" ---
they spend time in surgery removing long cords of white animal fat from arteries.

Animal enslavement and exploitation is "immoral" ---

and if you don't see the torture in corporate-factory-farming or in slaughter-houses
then I think it is "unnatural."

And re this . . .

People who state meat is not part of the natural human diet are unable to point me to a place on the planet which *naturally* grows a sufficiently diverse crop for a long enough period of the year to feed a person in a healthy manner.

Humans, of course, are capable of journeying from summer/winter camps --
the native American, of course, did this. It also provides a time of rest for the land.





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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #177
197. Sorry but not all proteins are created equal
"Grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts satisfy any human need ---
including Vitamin B ---"

Not B12 and not dense amino acids..

"In fact, the "protein" that you get from eating animals is harmful to the body "

This talking point has been so destroyed over the years Im not even goig to bother..

"Ask a doctor if eating beef is "unhealthy" ---"

I have and his answer was so long as one portions beef appropriatly and buys organic its a fine source of nutrition".

"Animal enslavement and exploitation is "immoral" ---"

Tell than to Aphids

"and if you don't see the torture in corporate-factory-farming or in slaughter-houses"

Straw man eating meat does *not* require corperate factory farms, but thanks for playing.

"Humans, of course, are capable of journeying from summer/winter camps"

LOL if you had left it at this I would have had to do some research but:

"he native American, of course, did this. It also provides a time of rest for the land."

Next time you want to use a nomadic group to justify a vegan diet as natural maybe you should not pick one that migrated to stay with they prey.. All nomadic peoples hunted because a society can not migrate the distance it would take to 'get ahead of the season'. Sure you can mitigate a Minnesota winter by say, migrating to Arkansas but by the time such a migration is done you will not have time to plant a crop which provides the non meat foods you would need to live when you got there.

Two things to note about the nomadic groups which you think seem to solve the problem of no place on earth providing a diverse enough source of food year round

1) Always they were small nodaic groups who did not compete for resources with other humans at the end of their migration

2) They all eat meat
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #197
202. Eating animals is not required for anyone ---
-- Sorry, but B12 does exist in the vegetarian world ---
don't recall the name of the grain but someone here was posting it just recently.

-- Rather the harm that animal protein does leads to osteoporosis ---
a huge problem in our society ---
your system will break down bone in response to too much animal protein in your bloodsteam
in order to flush calcium thru the vessels to expel it.

-- And, what did doctors tell you about smoking tobacco a while back -- ?
MOST doctors will recommend a vegetarian diet --- even VEGAN.
As the government now does ---





---"Animal enslavement and exploitation is "immoral" ---"

Tell than to Aphids


Aphids are small soft-bodied insects. They are one of the most common pest groups of ornamental plants.

You're saying that Aphids enslave and exploit animals . . . ??

Yeah, I'm sure they can be seen in slaughter-houses every day chopping up cows ---
not to mention keeping them pregnant so they keep on delivery milk intended for their offspring!



"and if you don't see the torture in corporate-factory-farming or in slaughter-houses"

Straw man eating meat does *not* require corperate factory farms, but thanks for playing.


The real "straw man" is you ignoring that I included slaughter-houses ---
Is there any chance that what you're really trying to do is fool yourself --- ??



"Humans, of course, are capable of journeying from summer/winter camps"

LOL if you had left it at this I would have had to do some research but:

"he native American, of course, did this. It also provides a time of rest for the land."

Next time you want to use a nomadic group to justify a vegan diet as natural maybe you should not pick one that migrated to stay with they prey.. All nomadic peoples hunted because a society can not migrate the distance it would take to 'get ahead of the season'. Sure you can mitigate a Minnesota winter by say, migrating to Arkansas but by the time such a migration is done you will not have time to plant a crop which provides the non meat foods you would need to live when you got there.

Two things to note about the nomadic groups which you think seem to solve the problem of no place on earth providing a diverse enough source of food year round

1) Always they were small nodaic groups who did not compete for resources with other humans at the end of their migration

2) They all eat meat


First of all, evidently you've never heard of people GOING AHEAD of the group ---
or staying behind?
Or repeating vegetation --- ?
How about CANNING vegetables/fruits --
ever heard of that --?

What I said was that NOT EATING ANIMALS is possible --
yes, the native American did hunt the Buffalo --
and when our government killed their animals and burned their crops they found it almost
impossible to believe the destruction they were seeing.

It wasn't necessary, of course, for the native American to eat animals ---

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #202
206. What is with the Religion of No Meat?
You guys constantly distort facts you dont like and ignore facts you cant distort and when all else fails you make stuff up!

A) B12 Sources "• Vitamin B12 is found in liver, kidney, yogurt, dairy products, fish, clams, oysters, nonfat dry milk, salmon, sardines." Find me somewhere else post it..

B) You claim that meat protein is bad for you but dredge up the following

"our system will break down bone in response to **too much** animal protein in your bloodsteam"

Please note the term **TOO MUCH** As in a *balanced amount* is not bad for you. Remember the woman who dies in the 'hold youre wee for a wii?' contest. Too much of *anything* is bad for you even water...

C) MOST doctors will recommend a vegetarian diet --- even VEGAN.

Source please?

D) As the government now does ---

Source please? I posted the Australian Government guide lines and concerns about the negative effects of a vegan diet on kids and pregnant/nursing moms.. You have done nothing except for create a fact..

E) No Aphids are enslaved by ants animals in nature exploit other animals all the time be it animals like chimps with little need for meat *hunting* in packs or ants trapping and keeping aphids..

F) "The real "straw man" is you ignoring that I included slaughter-houses"

No when you attach 'corporate factory' to slaughter houses you are creating a straw man (do you even know what a straw man is?) You try to tie eating meat to something not needed for eating meat and then beat up on corporate farms as if I support them.. Straw man

G) "It wasn't necessary, of course, for the native American to eat animals ---"

Uhhh huh.. A people without the technology to can goods (though they could smoke meat, without any kind of large scale agriculture who lived on a continent that did not have a sufficient variety of plants to meet all their nutritional needs could have gotten by without meat...

What color is the sky in your world..

--

BTW some people are allergic to soy, nuts, legumes, and even some fruits... allergies to meats in particular mammal meat are *far* more rare..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #206
208. Yeah . . . and I guess we made up the myth about the Apple . . .
Just what offense do you think that tale might have been intended to cover up -- ??

Violence against animals in the Garden of Eden, perhaps --- ???

Actually, it's the RELIGION of animal abuse, animal violence and animal exploitation
that needs to be looked at more closely ---

It's time to end animal exploitation as a taboo subject ---

Every sign points to the fact that humans are not animal eaters ---
pay attention to some of that information --

Additionally, there can't be a RELIGION like "meat" eating -- to use the euphemism because evidently people don't want to say, "I'm going to go eat some dead cow now" --
or "I'm going to go eat some dead pig now" -- without much of it being hidden.
How much time does any "meat" eater spend in a slaugter house?

Vitam B12 is also found in grains --- someone just posted the particular info
last week -- look it up --

Re animal protein leading to osteoporosis . . . eating animal "protein" is one
of the causes of it ---

Let me suggest on the vegetarian issue, if your doctor is telling you that eating
animals is healthful for you that you get a new doctor ---

The Australian government thinks that a VEGAN diet has negative effects on kids and
pregnant/nursing moms -- that's hilarious!!!

If you want to know anything about vegetarianism or Veganism, look it up --
there's plenty of info at DU --- and plenty of it on the internet.

The seriousness of Aphids aside . . . I still don't see them butchering cows,
or fattening geese for pate --- ??? Whaaat --- ???

Evidently, the issues of corporate farming AND slaughter-houses see are confusing
for you -- let's just say neither are prized parts of American culture -- and
they acknowledge this by trying to stay hidden.

Coming back to nature ... plants, believe it or not, do grow without any assistance
from human kind ---

Animals follow the plants --- humans did that at one time.

Many people are allergic to dairy products ---
and when you combine that with the effects of animal/dairy eating --
obesity, cataracts, hypertension, heart disease, cancers, including breast cancer,
diabetes, including juvenile diabetes -- what would possibly recommend this violent
manner of "nourishment" to anyone --- ???















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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #208
213. LOL This is the perfect example of an inrational Omniphobe..
"Just what offense do you think that tale might have been intended to cover up -- ??"

Well theologically speaking the Apple represented man trying to be like God but what the heck does that have to do with this conversation..

"Actually, it's the RELIGION of animal abuse, animal violence and animal exploitation"

LOL I hardly doubt you could call my dietary preferences a religion I dont try to hold others to some sort of moral compas dictated by my diet, you do..

"it's time to end animal exploitation as a taboo subject ---"

Why dont you start with sharks and dolphins if you can get them to stop 'exploiting animals' Ill sit down and listen..

"Every sign points to the fact that humans are not animal eaters ---"

You have not posted a *single* 'fact' but you have repeatedly stated there are dozens of them so come on then. you dont have facts on your side you have cheap rhetoric..

"Vitam B12 is also found in grains --- someone just posted the particular info"

Not my job sport, I pointed to an Australian government article about the dangers of a vegan diet including lack of b12 the answer of 'Well someone else somewhere, sometime, said there was one' holds no weight. I did google around looking for a source of b12 that was not meat/dairy/egg but was unable to find one. Maybe flax but thats hardly a prodigious enough crop to be our natural source of b12. Ill give you a hint people needed b12 long before we were farmers..

"Re animal protein leading to osteoporosis . . . eating animal "protein" is one
of the causes of it --- "

Stop lying your own source said *EATING TOO MUCH* kinda like too much water can kill you. This distortion of facts undercuts everything else you say.

BTW look here http://www.betterbones.com/bbbb_charts/eating.htm
One of the dietary recommendation in the prevention of osteoporosis is dairy (or a very unnatural supplement)

"Let me suggest on the vegetarian issue, if your doctor is telling you that eating
animals is healthful for you that you get a new doctor "

So ill take that as 'No I cant point at any objective fact study or survey that most doctors recommend a vegetarian/vegan diet'.. Hell you still cant point at a government survey.

"The Australian government thinks that a VEGAN diet has negative effects on kids and
pregnant/nursing moms -- that's hilarious!!!"

Slightly less amusing than your *complete lack of any studies* you make broad claims like

- The government said blah

or

- b12 can be found in grain blah

and are utterly unable to back it up with *anything*


"If you want to know anything about vegetarianism or Veganism, look it up --
there's plenty of info at DU --- and plenty of it on the internet."

Unlike you I know both sides of this issue, My kids are Egg and Milk allergic and my wife and I considered a vegan diet just to simplify meal planning. We looked at it, talked with some doctors (our doctors, our kids doctor, and out chiropractor) and all of them pointed at a balanced diet including meat and even things like cod oil for essential fatty acids.

You OTOH seem to spew 'facts' with nothing to back it up. YOU *STILL* cant produce this mythical government study that says the vegetarian diet is more healthy than an omnivorous one, its pathetic.

"American culture -- and
they acknowledge this by trying to stay hidden."

Crap you actually stumbled onto a truth slaughterhouses are not a prized part of american culture... Of course you don't know why youre right so Ill help... Slaughter houses have existed long before America and will exist long after they are a part of *human culture*.

"Coming back to nature ... plants, believe it or not, do grow without any assistance
from human kind --- "

Dude unless you're eating wild grass you're full of it Humans have bread plants so specifically and narrowly we have hurt the diversity of our diet. Do you think 10k years ago corn and wheat looked *anything* like they do today? Ill wager *cows* have been less perverted from their natural state by mans interference than wheat has..

"Animals follow the plants --- humans did that at one time."

Animals that dont follow plants: Polar bears, penguins, ... I can go on..

--

Youre starting to seem hopeless but its ok I like an obtuse challenge. Go get some facts kid..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #213
224. Spina Bifida and other neural cord disorders are connected to a lack . . .
of fresh vegetables and fruits in the female diet ---
The FDA has never yet conducted a campaign to inform females and their families
of this reality --

Your system doesn't always react immediately to irritants --
you probably won't get lung cancer from smoking until 20-30 years later ---

Same with irritants to the system from animal eating --
animal protein isn't something that the body reacts to every moment --
but there are intolerable levels ---
as I said . . . when there is an EXCESS of animal protein in the blood stream,
your system will break down even BONE in order to flush calcium thru to flush it out.

****************************************


Nor can you call vegetarianism nor Veganism a "religion" ---
Animal-exploitation, however, does impact on the pollution of the planet --
something that should be of concern to all of us.

And, on human health --- something which should be of concern to all of us --
Animal/dairy eating causes obesity, hypertension, heart disease, cataracts, diabetes,
cancers, including breast cancer.

SHOULD WE IGNORE THAT ---???


And, talking of "straw men" again . . .
You want to suggest that you don't have more free will than a shark or a dolphin?
Animal-life is assigned specific roles by nature ---
Humans, however, have the free will to separate themselves from the chain of violence ---


Do your own homework on the very wonderful information available here at DU on the benefits
of vegetarian/Vegan eating --- and the harm done from animal-exploitation.

Again -- No one is going to spoon-feed you ---

As for the B12 grain ---
It was just repeated again --- look at one of the posts under yours --

Even given the huge influence of the animal-exploitation industry on government agencies,
still, our own government recommends a vegetarian diet. Check it out.









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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #206
212. You should understand how insulting that kind of remark is.
Regardless of this particular discussion, the 'religion' crap is incredibly insulting. If 'we guys' constantly distort facts and lie, what do you think you are doing?

There are zealots on both sides of this discussion. You are beginning to look like evidence of that.



BTW, B12 is found in lots of places, but it's not *produced* by plants or animals. It's a bacterial product. It can be found in many foods, and the most reliable vegan source is nutritional yeast.

*Too much* animal protein causing calcium depletion isn't a function of how much animal protein is consumed, but of the kinds of amino acids present and bioavailability of calcium. Animal sources(like milk) tend to be higher in sulphur-producing amino acids and are more likely to lead to acidosis and calcium depletion; they are also lower in magnesium, and magnesium makes calcium more available to the body.

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #212
214. I dont think all vegans go to the church just the ones who try
to push their diet on everyone else.. I owe allot to vegans because of them I know the joy of baking cookies with my egg allergic daughter.

I dont care why someone eats what they eat but when it becomes post after post of 'your killing the planet' and 'your violent' and 'your not eating a natural diet' I respond.

Animal amino acids only lead to calcium depletion if you eat *way too much* like I said earlier too much water can kill you..

--

Im all for cutting down on some of the despicable practices in the US meat industry (hormones, antibiotics, crap like veal) but when someone comes off as 'youre evil for eating meat' I may respond too strongly, Ill bear that in mind...

Thanks for the post..

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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #214
215. Again,
excess protein (particularly animal protein) can lead to calcium depletion regardless of the amount consumed. That is not a question of moderation; it is simply a function of composition.

I try not to respond to proselytizing, because I think it's generally counter-productive from both sides, but be aware that we (the eeevil vegans) are constantly 'informed' on DU that we're unnatural, unhealthy, self-righteous, hypocritical kooks.

So we get defensive, too.

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #215
218. I leave you to ponder this..
"excess protein (particularly animal protein) can lead to calcium depletion regardless of the amount consumed."

How much irony exist in the statement than an excess (which of course comes from eating too much) can exist regardless of how much you eat..

"DU that we're unnatural, unhealthy, self-righteous, hypocritical kooks. "

A) It is an unnatural diet; people needed b12 long before we were farming grains to provide it ergo we got it from animals..

Nothing wrong with eating an unnatural diet Most meat eaters (myself included) dont eat what would qualify as a natural diet I do my best to keep everything organic but the cost of gas is making that kind of hard.

Animals killing and eating other animals is not unnatural...

B) It *can* be just as unhealthy as a diet that includes meat. Every time I talked with a friend when I was considering becoming a vegan (they were vegetarian) their recommendation was 'go see a doctor because you have to get the diet right or youll lose out on some nutrients'.

Many vegans take supplements and many others hop through hoops of eating food from 10 different regions, still it can *be* very healthy if done right Ill not deny that..

C) Ive not marched over to a the vegan/vegetarian groups on du and started crap yet in the rather short time I have been here I have seen a half dozen 'if you eat meat youre blah blah blah threads'. No, not every vegan is self righteous but the self righteous vegans far outnumber the meat eaters..

D) Hypocritical: well Ive seen some pretty lame crap but nothing that I would call hypocritical even among the folks who are the most self righteous vegans..

--

Im fine with *what ever you want to eat* any diet with either (a) proper discipline or (b) proper supplements
can be very, very healthy..
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #218
219. Pondering, but not much.
I gave up eating animals 21 years ago. This isn't a discussion that I haven't given some thought to.


You've completely misunderstood what I've said about protein and calcium depletion. One last time: excess protein does not refer to quantity of animal protein consumed. Simply put: a glass of milk causes protein depletion because the amount of sulphur-producing amino acids and the lack of bioavailability of calcium in that one glass causes acidosis and calcium leaching. One glass of milk pulls calcium from your bones, ten glasses of milk pulls more calcium from your bones. It's not about quantity.

A) Thanks for telling me that my lifestyle is unnatural. That's always nice. Per our earlier discussion, I reject the notion that we as humans aren't able to make decisions that are different from other animals. I have choices; I have made the best decisions that I know how to make. Call them unnatural if you want.

B) Yes, a vegan junk-food diet can be as unhealthy as an omni junk-food diet. Was I arguing otherwise? No?

C) No, you haven't marched over to the v/v/ar board and made a bunch of anti-veg posts. They'd be deleted if you did. Are you suggesting that we should stay there and not post on this kind of thread? And if you think the self-righteous vegans outnumber the self-righteous meaters, stick around. It's a damned close race.

D) Thanks for not calling me names. Others have, many times, even in this thread.


I do try to avoid the stupid preachy crap, but I absolutely won't stand for lies and broadbrush smears.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #219
221. Youre being overly sensitive
a) I also said my diet is unnatural, the fact I have heat in my home is unnatural (but given its 10below outside Im thankful for it..)

b) Never said you were arguing otherwise

c) Of course vegetarians should post where ever they want but when the come to GD at *least* three times a week to tell us what horrible violent unnatural creatures we are (Omnivorous) to complain that to meat eaters in GD are belligerant is the height of hubris..

d) sorry you have went through that, I have always found your post to be clam and informative and never preachy..


Have a nice day..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #221
228. Let's not ignore the SERIOUS effects of animal-exploitation on our planet ---
THIS would make some sense . . .



were it not for the serious health effects on human --- our friends and family --
and the very serious effects on the PLANET, we could probably all simply ignore the
VIOLENCE of animal-exploitation ---

or should we --- ?????

Violence breeds violence ---


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #218
223. Smoking tobacco doesn't bring disaster for 30 years or more . . .
There's a distortion in this conversation which centers evidently on the suggestion that it is
an "excess" amount of animal protein in the blood stream which causes the body to break down EVEN BONE in order to flush calcium thru in order to rid the system of it ---

Any animal protein is unhealthy for the human body ---
the system does not always react to it by breaking down bone ---
that is the reaction to the EXTREME --

Consider that the body/system does not abide tobacco smoking very well -
but you will not see lung cancer until perhaps 20-30 years later.


As for B12, keep in mind that grains were available before farming ---
farming simply organized selected plants in one location.

It is an unnatural diet; people needed b12 long before we were farming grains to provide it ergo we got it from animals..

Animal life followed the plants --- only humans have arranged things such as "farming."


As for "unnatural" dies, certainly "meat" eating qualifies in every way beginning with its violence.

However, keep in mind that the FDA was sued back about 7-8 years ago because they had come to clearly
see that a LACK of folate available from fresh vegetables and fruit - folic acid in its synthetic form - in the female diet was responsible for many illnesses in the newborn. This LACK is responsible for neural cord disorders in the newborn -- specifically SPINA BIFIDA.
Lack of folate is also linked to Down's Syndrome.

The FDA did nothing at the time to properly inform the public of this knowledge --
They were sued and they still did not conduct a campaign to inform the public.
You now do, however, have folic acid in your flour.
Evidently, that isn't quite so good for senior citizens ---
but why tell anyone to eat fresh vegetables and fruit -- !!!!


Re this . . .
Animals killing and eating other animals is not unnatural...

Of course not --- we can imagine how NATURAL Eve probably found it when the Garden of Eden
was surrounded in blood and body parts from a riot of animal killing --- !!!!

Ah --- but it was the APPLE, you say --- !!!

If you want to worry about "nutrients" don't eat food that is grown with artificial chemicals
and fecal matter used as manure.

Ironically, the strength of the vegetarian/Vegan arguments are unsettling to those who don't
want to face the violence of "meat" eating, that we're being accused of picking on them ---
and lying!!!! Though anyone can clearly see --- unless they avoid it --- the harm being done
psychologically and physically to human kind and the planet due to animal slaughter ---
12 million animals every day--!!!







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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #223
226. 1 by 1
"Any animal protein is unhealthy for the human body --"

Source...

"As for B12, keep in mind that grains were available before farming ---"

Again 'grains' is too generic wheat rice and millit for example contain no b12 there was no grain pordigeous enough to support a large human population until we bread them

"12 million animals every day--!!!"

And each and every one is finger licking good..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #226
227. Physicians are removing long white cords of animal fat from arteries . . .
but . . . don't look at that --- !!! Look away, look away!!!

Tobacco is also good for the human body ---
and let's now say . . .

"A cow a day keeps the doctor away" ---


:sarcasm:
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #227
230. Still cant post a source huh...
Too much water will kill you, in fact so will too much O2 in the air..

You keep trying to compare meat to tobacco why? one is a natural dietary component of a good portion of the animal kingdom (including people) the other is not natural....

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #230
232. Right -- ignore what is being said and keep asking for a LINK ---
the LINK will change your life ---

Move on and do some honest looking at information for yourself ---

Again -- no one is going to spoon feed you ---

Nor will you find any government information which is anything but POSITIVE on vegetarian/
Vegan diets ---

If you don't understand the analogy between tobacco/meat then you're not going to get much
else of what is being passed on to you --- !!!


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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #232
234. When you make a claim its generally nice to have a fact to bak it up
You claimed that the Government is saying a vegan diet is good for you and a diet that include meat is bad for you:

I looked and found no such study but I did find one that contradicted what you said. I posted the results and the link. Fact is I disproved what you said and your inability to verify it generates the appearance your making it up. This cast a shadow over everything else you say.

Also the fact you make a claim with (a) no factual backup and (b) no desire to obtain or provide backup is why you fall into the vegan religious zealot.

"Move on and do some honest looking at information for yourself ---"

Do you even read my post? I have already looked into it with doctors and research and *everything* other people who are Orthodox Veganist or Omniphobes points at a balanced diet.

"Again -- no one is going to spoon feed you ---"

LOL Im the only one who has provided actual facts in this conversation all you have done is make things up and perform some wild speculation that aboriginal people could have lived their nomadic lifestyle without meat.

"Nor will you find any government information which is anything but POSITIVE on vegetarian/
Vegan diets ---"

Umm kiddo, I posted a link above to the Australian government

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/nutrition/child_nutrition/vegetarian.htm

And here are some US government guidelines

http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?doc_id=6417

* Consume 3 cups per day of fat-free or low-fat milk or equivalent milk products.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #234
241. And . . . I'm sure YOU can still find an excuse to smoke -- and think it's
a good time to buy a house . . .
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #234
242. And . . . I'm sure YOU can still find an excuse to smoke -- and think it's
a good time to buy a house . . .
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #69
137. Everyone who eats participates in killing.
Killing plants is taking life as surely as killing a cow. Oh, sure, it's not painful - but let's be clear, it IS killing for sustenance.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #137
186. Do plants have faces, nurse their young, have nervous systems, see color --- ?
The fact that those eating animals need to go to such lengths not to see what is
before their eyes is quite telling about the strong need not to see reality ---

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #186
191. Actually all things have it coded into their DNA about ways to deal with predators and parasites
Plants have all kinds of reactions when other plants around them are destroyed or taken out of the picture. The plants have adapted to it even use it to their advantage.

There is no moral code in nature, just eat or be eaten.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #191
203. If you truly believe in "eat or be eaten" as a code of behavior .. .
you're expressing the very interpretation/fear of nature in males which I was
discussing in another post ---

No -- survival of the fittest actually means "those who cooperate best with nature."

The Human species has suffered a disconnect -- a spiritual disconnect --- with nature ---
which has led to the destruction of species, pollution of the planet --- and more than
likely destruction of our own species.


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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #203
207. Yes, i will agree some forms of life exist without the assist and death of others
but they are the anomaly and mostly living in niches. Yes we will say it again, without death most everything else could not live.

The oversimplified version is "Eat or be Eaten". I, myself try to stay away from meat not because of moral implications and it being so wasteful of a food but more from the standpoint it not good for the human digestive system.

The idea of "those who cooperate best with nature" is also very subjective at best. Most every living thing already was doing very well at any rate before us Humans came along. One of the rules i have learned watching nature is that there are no rules, only survival. I don't look at socialization between species and between themselves as the rule of cooperation because it isn't really cognitive. To me seems just more of the same survival techniques all are brought into.

In death, there are new beginnings along with the short ends. This is not choice or cooperation, but just how it is, parts of the biosphere die so others can come along use what they left and take up their space. Death just like life is what happens. Their is no authoritarian codes of nature, there are tend to and almost always but nothing written in stone except the stone itself.

Science uses facts to describe how nature is built but the words will betray Science in description of what it is in it's totality. This because it's like describing the air we are breathing in. There is lot's of it going in and out of us and all around us but we have no way identifying it's totality

The core of the lesson of "Eat or be eaten" i learned from listening to Alan Watts

(snip)
Underneath the superficial self, which pays attention to this and that, there is another self more really us than I. And the more you become aware of the unknown self -- if you become aware of it -- the more you realize that it is inseparably connected with everything else that is. You are a function of this total galaxy, bounded by the Milky Way, and this galaxy is a function of all other galaxies. You are that vast thing that you see far, far off with great telescopes. You look and look, and one day you are going to wake up and say, "Why, that's me!" And in knowing that, you know that you never die. You are the eternal thing that comes and goes, that appears -- now as John Jones, now as Mary Smith, now as Betty Brown -- and so it goes, forever and ever and ever.
---(Alan Watts.)
(snip)
http://www.sherryaustin.com/Quotable.htm
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #207
209. You've missed the point ---
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 01:57 AM by defendandprotect

Men FEAR nature ---
there is a SPIRITUAL -- repeat SPIRITUAL -- disconnect between men and nature ---
Men have sought to dominate and destroy nature ---
Manifest Destiny/Man's Dominion Over Nature ---
and the results --- total pollution of the planet --- and Global Warming
which will bring an end to our species.


NATURE has given various animals roles to fulfill --
some of that depends upon violence which some times we understand --
the weakest animals are often taken out --
Often times, animals behave as nature's clean up crew --

And, of course, it is impossible to deny that "meat" eating --- to use the euphemism --
is harmful to humans --- and, in fact, dairy eating ---
There are many diseases linked to animal/dairy eating ---
from obestity to diabetes, including juvenile diabetes ---
cataracts, hypertension, heart disease, cancers, including breast cancer.

Yes, dead animals in your digestive track -- and it moves thru very slowly --
is hardly good for digestion!


And this . ..
The idea of "those who cooperate best with nature" is also very subjective at best. Most every living thing already was doing very well at any rate before us Humans came along. One of the rules i have learned watching nature is that there are no rules, only survival. I don't look at socialization between species and between themselves as the rule of cooperation because it isn't really cognitive. To me seems just more of the same survival techniques all are brought into.

is a misinterpretation of what I meant. COOPERATION applies to the human species.
Animals really have little choice about whether to cooperate or not --
They can not change what their species is designed to do.

It is Humans who have the CHOICE to cooperate or not --
and -- presumably because of the male fear of nature ---
and some say because of their lesser role in nature --
they have tried to DOMINATE nature -- and to destroy it --
Sadly, they have succeeded, at least in this little corner of the universe and
in regard to our planet and the species living upon it.

I, too, agree that there are new beginnigns -- probably more like reincarnation.

Science is merely and only observation of nature.
And, too, we have science as seen by one gender --
and history as written by one gender.
Both are poisoned by that overall distortion.



The core of the lesson of "Eat or be eaten" i learned from listening to Alan Watts

(snip)
Underneath the superficial self, which pays attention to this and that, there is another self more really us than I. And the more you become aware of the unknown self -- if you become aware of it -- the more you realize that it is inseparably connected with everything else that is. You are a function of this total galaxy, bounded by the Milky Way, and this galaxy is a function of all other galaxies. You are that vast thing that you see far, far off with great telescopes. You look and look, and one day you are going to wake up and say, "Why, that's me!" And in knowing that, you know that you never die. You are the eternal thing that comes and goes, that appears -- now as John Jones, now as Mary Smith, now as Betty Brown -- and so it goes, forever and ever and ever.
---(Alan Watts.)
(snip)
http://www.sherryaustin.com/Quotable.htm



Yes, we are all part of the whole ---
I, too, feel a spiritual part of the whole ---
But, what we are discussing here is man's destruction and violence vs nature.
Something which is now resulting in loss of species, loss of our own species,
and deadly pollution of the planet.

Want to try to address what makes males so violent and so ignorant?

Certainly NATURE is not suicidal --- so there must be another explanation ---
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #209
220. A lot of the times i don't want, i just do, and do and do
Do you assume that the men's conditioned response, the things they have had drilled into them since birth will just go away because of some request it? Children have been trained that way from birth by both sexes in one degree or another. Can i assume from the way you phrase the questions you only percieve men as being violent? Do you also assume all men are frightend of nature and therefore made violent because of that fear? You do seem a little condesending of the human male species in general at any rate. I understand all the evidence points to that and many of things you point out to be true. Yet with all of them piles of evidence i think the motive and empetus of how that comes to be is being missed.

I also tried to state earlier about how the totality of this thing we want to describe is not possible to describe in total (we will always have a hard time seeing the big picture in totality). This because we being a part of it and it makes it impossible to have a un-subjective view. I also do know many men that are quite docile and didn't to be that way yet they just are. Your beef, pardon the pun, seems to be with this gravitational pull the alpha male has on females. This is a quite obvious trait of some would even want dismiss as being inconsequential. This to me one of the things that does drive our society as a whole. The law of the fittest also applies here. We could rant and rave about it all day long but still it would be the same. Men don't chose that, they along with females are wired that way or have you not noticed? In free societies mostly women and men don't pair up because of how well they compliment each others attributes. They pair because of inborn desires that are often hard to quantify, another thing that has no exact science (thank goodness).


Men may fear nature to one degree or another but they do it by mostly an instinctual response. It's also easier to train most anything to be ignorant and apathetic than patient and resourceful (women often do a lot of the earlier training of our young, where do they fit in?). In the U.S. we are a fat and lazy populous that on a whole wishes everything to be catered to ourselves. Yea, decide that to be a male attribute and that is how we come to decide it's all the mens fault. No i don't buy it and if you only had me and my wife to judge by you would think women where more blood thirsty. Just again an observation that has no rules, but tends to

Nature isn't contemplative, it just goes with what works. Finally men are violent because of fear no doubt, but to decide it's all of their own personal doing seems like kind of a leap.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. You have to be taught to hate and fear . . .
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 12:33 PM by defendandprotect
First, I'm glad you see that violent behavior has to be taught --- and become mainstream.
However, better information will always overcome the bad.

Certainly I do not ONLY perceive men as violent. What I am pointing to are the CONSEQUENCES
-- the RESULTS -- of that violence which we can plainly see.
We have corporate-fascism now crossing our threshold because of political violence in America over
more than a half century.
We have Global Warming descending upon us with its effects already clearly being felt.
We have destroyed other species.
We have engaged in perpetual wars.
Genocide -- land theft -- enslavement.
All of this has occurred under patriarchy.

And let's be clear about it . . . the patriarchy came into existence thru tens of thousands of years of violence against females . . . including economic and social intimidation/oppression which is
still obvious around the world.

Manifest Destiny/Man's Dominion Over Nature are clearly efforts to give license to the elite
to exploit nature, natural resources, animal life --- and even other human beings according
to various myths of inferiority.

The male desire to dominate stems from his fears.

Men are NOT "wired" in any way for violence --- they are trained to it.
Additionally, the bonds with females have to be broken in order to send males to war.

NO -- in order to say that males are naturally violent, you would have to be arguing that
nature is suicidal ---

because that's the result of male violence -- SUICIDE for the species and the planet.
**************************************************************************************

Women have too often turned the training of their male children over to the male.
That's been a mistake which women are now seemingly trying to correct.
However---there are very strong and negative cultural influences -- especially with
a nation at war --- which are difficult to combat. Think of all the military movies
appearing on TV now. All the violence on TV. Hopefully, more and more parents are just
putting the TVs into the attic!

Nature is "contemplative" in the sense that it has given everything to do with childbearing
to females. Men understand that they are almost a dispensible item in nature.

Unless you want to argue that males have no control over their behavior, then I think you
have to concede that it is their own personal doing.






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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #222
231. It would seem to me a hard sell to prove that all emotional responses are trained
Fear one of the basic ones that can be seen in most fur bearing mammals. The learning part i would readily except, but more learned from observation than of any formal training.

That grip you have on patriarchy as some type of written up plan kind of sounds farce. Most primates with few exceptions practice it because it's the way they have learned to survive against others who would invade their territory. To think men could chose to be radically different from that betrays their genetic makeup. That testosterone thing is not a myth especially as far is has or had to do with changing mens emotional outlook or physical makeup. These men you might perceive, they don't do it because they chose, they do it because they have genetically predisposition to it

As for the We have corporate-fascism my opinion would be conditioned individual greed with the need to control others coupled with the herd mentality that is also prevalent in our society

I could understand that you might have a few grudges against men for one reason or another but i would also like to put it to you that you are example of your own thoughts just as well. The visions we all have sometimes have a way of working their way into our life. Life for us humans can be violent no matter how we try to protect against it. Yet that idea of how to protect against it might even be the undoing that brings us to it for any number of reasons.

There have been lots of new scientific studies and conclusions on herd sociology. This thread about beef makes for logical reference of the cattle drive and how it works. The one lone animal in a thousand or ten thousand that decides or is forced to go it alone has the better chance of being ate for dinner by wolves (if it is of the herd type of animal anyway)

Lest you be the judge for yourself check this out.

(inside the link is a interesting youtube link)
(snip)
Individual vs. Herd

Are you the person who believes in individual independence, free will and underestimate the power of social group. Have you ever have doubts about the power of crowd? Just watch this video from 'Troop of One Hundred" Japanese comedy show, where a 100 people chase after random strangers. The reactions are priceless and leave no shadow of doubt who is stronger - an individual or the herd
(snip)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:EVXXeGY5M2gJ:www.socialhallucinations.com/sociology/index.html+herd+sociology&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #231
233. Shall we become lemmings, or sheep --- ?
Who is suggesting that all emotional responses are trained --- ???

No one has to teach you to feel emotion and to react ---

But people are taught to hate and fear others which leads to violence.

Just look at TV --- and the messages being transmitted --- about what humans do.
A whole program now on tatoos --- plastic surgeries, generally to enlarge breasts ---
images of women mainly either cleaning Johns or showing their tits.
And, endless, endless violence.

I think also that male humans recognizing their fear also react out of self-hatred ---
I think violence is an indication of that.

We have had tens of thousands of years --- perhaps more --- of violence to overturn women in
society. Do you think the "Witch hunts" were a figment of someone's imagination?
The Bible was written to cement patriarchy.

Just look at medicine and the destruction of plants and knowledge of plants ---
and midwifery --- all of this originally in the hands of females.

AGAIN --- try this . . . animals have set behavior . . . male humans have CHOICE.
AGAIN -- unless you want to argue that human males have no control over their behavior,
their violence? And, of course, that is untrue.
AGAIN -- human males do not have a "nature predisposition to violence" --- and the
reason that is obvious is because NATURE IS NOT SUICIDAL.
AGAIN --- male violence has led to destruction of species, including our own --
and severe dame to the planet--!!!

We have corporate-fascism because political violence in America has not been properly addressed
and those responsible for it have not been held accountable. Fascism has come to power in America
the same way it came to power in Nazi Germany --- thru political violence.

Suggesting that pointing to male violence has something to do with a "grudge" suggests that
you're really engaging in disingenous discussion, or willing to fool yourself.

Basically, I can only identify your final paragraphy as an argument for humans becoming
lemmings, if not sheep.

Survival is not the only or primary consideration in living your life ---
It is HOW you live your life and what ideals you stand for that matter to most of us.




QUOTE . . .
seem to me a hard sell to prove that all emotional responses are trained
Fear one of the basic ones that can be seen in most fur bearing mammals. The learning part i would readily except, but more learned from observation than of any formal training.

That grip you have on patriarchy as some type of written up plan kind of sounds farce. Most primates with few exceptions practice it because it's the way they have learned to survive against others who would invade their territory. To think men could chose to be radically different from that betrays their genetic makeup. That testosterone thing is not a myth especially as far is has or had to do with changing mens emotional outlook or physical makeup. These men you might perceive, they don't do it because they chose, they do it because they have genetically predisposition to it

As for the We have corporate-fascism my opinion would be conditioned individual greed with the need to control others coupled with the herd mentality that is also prevalent in our society

I could understand that you might have a few grudges against men for one reason or another but i would also like to put it to you that you are example of your own thoughts just as well. The visions we all have sometimes have a way of working their way into our life. Life for us humans can be violent no matter how we try to protect against it. Yet that idea of how to protect against it might even be the undoing that brings us to it for any number of reasons.

There have been lots of new scientific studies and conclusions on herd sociology. This thread about beef makes for logical reference of the cattle drive and how it works. The one lone animal in a thousand or ten thousand that decides or is forced to go it alone has the better chance of being ate for dinner by wolves (if it is of the herd type of animal anyway)

Lest you be the judge for yourself check this out.

(inside the link is a interesting youtube link)
(snip)
Individual vs. Herd

Are you the person who believes in individual independence, free will and underestimate the power of social group. Have you ever have doubts about the power of crowd? Just watch this video from 'Troop of One Hundred" Japanese comedy show, where a 100 people chase after random strangers. The reactions are priceless and leave no shadow of doubt who is stronger - an individual or the herd
(snip)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:EVXXeGY5M2gJ:www.so...

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #203
235. If violence and territoralism is a 'spiritual disconnet' with nature
I suggest you work on getting Chimps to knock it off..

Wow you're anti-male... what a shocker...
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #235
236. Our teenage daughter is more demanding and violent than our son.
She probably even out weighs him by 20lbs even. She often tries to get in scuffles and antagonize him but he has learned to brush it off. She has got in several fights with kids at school and has gotten suspended a few times for it. Our son isn't an angel all the time but he does what is asked of him, attends college and stays out trouble. Our daughter is pretty smart but obstinate too. She had to get a G.E.D. because in her last couple years of high school she couldn't stay in any of them long enough to get any credits. Trouble seems to find her if she isn't actively seeking it out.

I don't discount the above poster's account of this being a Macho Man world accept for any proposal that women are ALWAYS the victim of it. Thanks for chiming in and good luck with those little angels
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #69
152. Make no mistake. We are every bit a part of natures clean up crew
for we are undeniably tied to nature, and the rules that govern it. It is the attitude that we are separate from it that has us where we are in the first place. Is the beef INDUSTRY a good thing? Probably not...almost certainly not, but that is because we have converted how we get our food into an industry to begin with and have not done so in a sustainable manner. If we open up all that land for agricultural production for human food on mega farms, and start shipping that all over the world in planes, trains, boats ,and trucks we are making no significant fundamental change. We'll just be feeding more people unsustainably, growing the population and energy consumption, etc. Those people will expect to get to live an ever expanding resource depleting consumer lifestyle. etc.

Not seeing the forest for the trees folks. Forest for the trees.


Olafr
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #57
119. Lots of people feel that way.
Please understand that lots don't.

Without imposing any particular definition of morality, for my part, I think that morality exists.

Animals eating other animals is essentially an amoral act; it simply is as it is. My individual sense of morality as a human tells me that, for me, eating animals would be an immoral (not amoral) act, an unnecessary cruelty. I'm not suggesting that my sense of morality is or should be shared by others, but I am saying that we as humans have an opportunity that most animals don't have, to make a conscious, deliberate decision about our choices in life.

Individuals should make their own decisions about whether eating animals is for them moral or immoral; I do have a hard time with people asserting that their decisions are amoral, unless they are at the same time claiming that morality doesn't exist.

That may certainly be your belief, I surely don't know, but I just thought it might be good to talk a little bit about process.

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #119
154. *I think that morality exists*
Of course morality exist but it is *extremely* subjective thats the beauty of human society we are all so different. But there are some aspects of Morality that we do define as absolute (Rape, Murder, ...)

So Its kinda like a Pizza:

We all live in our own little Pepperoni (or Mushroom for our vegetarian listeners) and within those bounds there is subjective morality (e.g. ok to kiss on the first date, ok to speed *a little*, ok to wear white in the fall, etc..) but we cant go outside of that alloted space to define some of the greater moral truths (Rape is never ok for *anyone* for *any* reason). The problem arises when people try to take the stuff in their mushroom and cram it into the space between (its wrong for other people to eat meat). You, to me, dont seem to be doing this so were cool ;)

"Animals eating other animals is essentially an amoral act; it simply is as it is."

Why? Chimps kill and eat monkeys that they don't *have* to eat. Ill grant you some animals like Cats *have* to eat meat (or at least meat protein) But many animals *could* get by without eating animals.

"I am saying that we as humans have an opportunity that most animals don't have, to make a conscious, deliberate decision about our choices in life."

This presupposes that we are above nature, sorry thats what gets us into half the mess we are in. I would also refine your statement to read *individuals* humans have the opportunity to do this, you cant decide for others that they should exist outside of their natural diet.

"Individuals should make their own decisions about whether eating animals is for them moral or immoral"

While there are acceptable levels of 'I'm ok You're ok' its not the rule. If someone wants to make the decision for themselves that they dont want to eat meat thats fine for them but when they start to say 'meat is murder' to me they have brought things to a point where they have judged my diet and put their own above it. When they become militant they have crossed a line that no matter how much its 'moral' to them they are still in the wrong.

Thanks for the great post!
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
62. Haven't eaten it but a few times in the last many years. But Trader Joe's carries organic grass fed
...beef, which I finally looked up online. The cows/steers are never fed animal byproducts, nor are they treated with hormones. I may give it a try, eventually -- the cost per pound is no more than what I routinely pay for small blocks of cheese.

I have not been able to convince my adult kids to stop eating hamburgers, but some things you just have to let go of.

Hekate

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. It's an improved health situation, of course, but it's still a manner of
feeding vegetation to cows which they pass on to you ---

OR --- you could eat the vegetation directly ---

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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
64. I'm still eating beef, sorry.
...even though I prefer chicken.

"People are starving all over the world, what do you mean "red meat'll kill you?" Don't eat no red meat? No, don't eat no GREEN meat... if you're one of the chosen few people in the world lucky enough to get your hands on a steak, bite the shit out of it!
I'd eat a pig's ass if you cook it right!" -Chris Rock

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chris_Rock
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Yeah .. Chris Rock has some odd ideas --- that would be one of them ---
Chris Rock is often funny -- often not.

Often aware -- often not.

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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
68. Pull the horns off and wipe it's butt
I like my steak rare!
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RadiationTherapy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
76. ...butbutbut...I WANT to be willfully ignorant. It TAAASSTES good.
It's a "free" country! I can eat/drive/steal/fuck what I want!

I gave up on all of you years ago. I don't care about you, your health, your families, this planet...NONE of it. I enjoy every living moment of every living day and will not waste energy on changing people so intent on achieving their pleasure. Go fuck a dead cow corpse.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. It's almost funny...
half the folks that come out of the woodwork on issues involving eating less/no meat are some of the same folks that practically SHIT themselves when other topics of global warming come up. Let someone post a thread that says, "I drive and H2 because I fucking like it, and that's that." Some of these same folks would hit meltdown before they hit "Post message".

Hilarious.
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RadiationTherapy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. It all goes back to not using turn signals...
The diminished use of turn signals, something SO EASY and courteous to do, is indicative of the selfishness and carelessness this culture idolizes. It is such a small thing, using your turn signal for every turn, but it really only impacts others if you don't...so most don't.

This is a disgusting, hedonistic, short sighted, selfish culture and I wait with bated breath watching the slow, taffy collapse of it all.

Don't forget to vote.

g.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
108. I've used the "s" word here many times.
Selfish. Selfishness.

Most folks don't like it. I've got the scorched backside to prove it.

Glad someone else sees it.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. We don't eat any red meat
I gave up all red meat in 1979 and hubby did the same in 83. We eat mostly fish but some bird and a lot of vegi stuff.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
77. More and more, we're going to have to get to know where our food comes from
You can get organic beef, subscribe to a CSA for produce, or grow your own. I'm fortunate, I live out in the country, my neighbor raises organic beef, which he periodically grazes on my land. I know the cow that I'm going to eat, and at $1.86/lb, whatever cut you want, it is cheaper than what you get in the store.

Look around, get out into the country, and above all, get a freezer. Get to know your small farmers and their operations. You're food will be better and better for you than what you get in the store.
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
87. I do still want to eat beef
Especially a quick grilled steak on the BBQ.
The steer from which my steak came does not suffer, nor does it have any memory of any suffering that may have occurred in the past, yet I will remember its tender taste for at least a few days.
It died honorably and I honor it by cooking it perfectly and eating it with pleasure.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #87
123. Isn't that what they used to say about animal sacrifice . .. has an odd ring to it --- !!!
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #123
161. a waste of meat
The meat is wasted if we don't get to eat it.
Do we get to eat it after animal sacrifice?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. Animal sacrifice was probably the original sin in the Garden of Eden ---
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 05:02 PM by defendandprotect
The drama certainly wasn't about an apple --- !!!

And . . Eve stands there still with the Apple in her hand giving you
that message.

Probably the violence in the Garden of Eden began with animal sacrfice ---

and your question: --

" The meat is wasted if we don't get to eat it.
Do we get to eat it after animal sacrifice?


was probably the way it all began.

A slippery slope to planet destruction and species destruction.

Animals are our brothers and sisters on the planet.




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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. And our brothers and sisters are ...
running amok eating each other!
see that spider just killed and sucked the juice from that fly...
whoops...that bird just ate that spider...
watch out...cat eating bird...
hey, I think there is a nursery rhyme in there somewhere.

Life is violent. Nature is violent.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #165
175. Men especially are frightened of nature and, IMO, misinterpret
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 11:54 PM by defendandprotect
what they see ---
the human male, especially, seems to have a disconnect from Nature . . .
though they are part of it.

Animals are certainly part of a clean up crew for Nature ---
We don't entirely understand why some animals are "taken out" ---

However, contrast it with the filth that humans produce ---
overpopulation, pollution of the planet ---
and war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war -- and more war.

Men love to invent weapons ---
do you see any animals doing that?

Neither do any animals fight to the death ---

Nor is there any other species where the MALE has declared violent war on the female ---

When it comes to violence, the human male is acting on his own ---

Nature isn't suicidal ---



And . . .
if you want proof of any of that look at the destruction the white male has brought to this continent, from genoide against the native American to enslavement of the African in America.

When they arrived here, the odor of flowers could be smelled off shore for miles --
squirrels could travel over the canopies of large trees all the way from the West Coast
to the East Coast. The white male FEARED forests and not long after they arrived they
were cutting them down. Seen any trees lately?




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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #175
192. disconnect from nature impossible
Man, nor any other form of life can be disconnected from nature.
We are not a PART of nature, we ARE nature. And by we, I mean all life.
Men invent weapons, do I see animals doing that?
Yes! evolution (an aspect of nature) does it. Ever been bitten by a dog or cat?
See the claws of a cat? The sting of a bee? The acid "gun" of some ants? There are many more "weapons" in the non-animal kingdom than man has created. And I haven't even mentioned the defensive weapons (e.g. thorns, nettles, toxins).

Do animals fight to the death?? Of course they do, if one doesn't give up and run away.
They do it for territory, mates, food, and dominance, among other things.

There is no other species where the male has declared violent war on the female??
Depends on your definition of declared violence.
Ever see male ducks "gang rape" a female?
Ever see a male lion kill the young of a female because they come from a different sire?
If you go to the insect kingdom, things are often reversed and the male is killed by the female.

Violence isn't restricted to the white male, in is an inherent part of nature. Humans (including white males) are special because they alone can act against what is natural in other animals.
In non-human animals, in the wild, do dogs from different packs live in the same "neighborhood"? What happens to cheetahs when they move into the lions neighborhood? How often do you see birds of different species or even different subspecies living together?

The way of nature is violent. It is survival by expansion, protection, wiping out food supplies and moving on, building invasive structures, killing, mating, birthing, and dying. And that is true even when one doesn't include man.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #192
198. You misunderstood . . .
the DISCONNECT from Nature I was talking about is a SPIRITUAL disconnection in males ---

And I don't think the teeth of a dog nor claws of a cat can be considered their invention --- !!!
It's nature's way of protecting the animal and giving it defenses ---

No -- animals do not fight to the death ---

As I've said . . . animals are part of nature's clean up crew ---
animals can't go out for a pizza nor decide to join the military, nor decide to live in condos.
They perform as nature has programmed them.

Purposeful violence is restricted to the human male -- the most destructive of any animal on this planet!!!

And, your last sentence kinda proves the male paranoia over nature ---
No -- survival is to the species which COOPERATES best with nature --
not to the most violent --

There can only be so many ducks on a pond --
so many birds in the sky ---
nature monitors that ---

The male of our species has, however, destroyed nature and thereby has destroyed his own species.



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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #198
238. Did not misunderstand...
nor did I take into account your misandrist feelings, I only argued with logic.

You may re-read my response, but to support it...
teeth and claws are not their invention, but they are an invention when looked at it from an evolutionary sense. It is what they best need to kill or to protect themselves. Those with lesser "weapons" lost the competition to those with the better "weapons" and did not live to reproduce or did not meet their potential to reproduce. That is how evolution works.

Yes, animals DO fight to the death. Just saying they don't doesn't make it a fact.
Just because animals are "programmed" to fight to the death, doesn't mean they aren't fighting to the death!

Purposeful violence restricted to the human male?
Any non-producer organism depends upon death to survive.
Many of the consumer organisms (not even including man) kill their prey...and eat it. Killing is violent.
To these consumer organisms, killing definitely has a purpose. They hunt and kill with a purpose. Many will feed before the prey is dead!

My last sentence did not say that survival goes to the most violent. I said that nature IS violent, and it is. It can be shown by example.
Cooperating with nature is not the best way for a species to survive. Otherwise, a mouse would give itself up to the cat, or perhaps the cat would let the mouse go -- depending on which aspect of nature they are trying to cooperate with. As this shows, nature is not something with which to cooperate, it is the actual organisms that make up the whole. Survival of a species goes to that which can live to reproduce the next generation, and in many species, this involves killing.

Finally, nature doesn't monitor; as I've said before, nature is the sum of the parts, each organism. If there are too many birds in the sky, some will die because the ecosystem won't support them. Nature doesn't just say "okay, enough birds...no more egg laying". Man can't destroy nature, as man is part of nature and this "nature" changes constantly, with or without man. What man can do is change the environment in which we live. Nature still exists, but you might not like the environment.


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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #163
239. Where the heck are you getting this from
Do you want to know what the sin in the garden was:

It was Man wanting to be like God weather or not it was a literal tree or something else who knows but it had nothing to do with meat.

"Eve stands there still with the Apple in her hand giving you
that message."

Umm dude, Man was admonished for taking the apple from the woman, the woman was admonished from taking advice from the serpent and the serpent was admonished for deception.

"Animals are our brothers and sisters on the planet."

Thats curios:

Animals like, for example, Dolphins and Sardines are our 'brothers' when a dolphin eats a Sardine is it brother killing brother?
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
88. Haven't touched the shit in years
for the very reasons described in the OP.

Fuck that.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
91. Time to Demand for Testing
and thank you for bringing this to our attention.....


Readers, ignore those attacking this article.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
93. I have not had beef in over 2 years now....
I eat a limited amount of chicken. turkey and fish.

The reason I removed beef and a majority of other meat from my diet was because I can not deal with the cruelty. I do not tolerate animal cruelty/abuse at all, by eating meat you contribute to those barbaric practices used by factory farming, it sickens me.

the other reason, I did it for weight management. After I stopped eating red meat, I started losing weight and found that if you do stop eating red meat, you can control your weight much better. I noticed that when I was eating red meat, I continued to gain weight. Red meat is not only bad for the animal, it's bad for you too.
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KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
94. Yes, now pass me that Cheeseburger! n/t
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
95. I prefer my steak rare.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
97. HELL YES!
Besides, I buy non-factory farm beef.

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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
109. I didn't even need to read your post. I quit 2 days ago because of
a post in the Lounge.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #109
124. What was the post in the LOUNGE . . . ??????? ????
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
111. Yes, I'm sure.
I'm against cruelty to animals, it's terrible. But I'm going to continue eating beef because I enjoy it. I think people should avoid eating cheap beef. I only eat prime Nebraskan corn fed beef. It's more expensive but I do believe it's a lot safer than the stuff you might buy in the frozen food section or McDonald's. I'm really not concerned with mad cow.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #111
126. Agreed.
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 12:54 AM by CRF450
Think I'm gonna quit just because a few slauter houses are caught with animal cruelty? Fuck that! We're omnivors, we can eat meat and still live healthy.
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Avalon Sparks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
112. For the last 2 years I've eaten meat everyday...
No plans to stop now.... or ever. I eat almost only meat, cheese and eggs and some low carb veggies...
also cream, butter and even pork rinds.

I went extremely low carb 2 years ago, and my cholesterol, blood pressure and health has never been better. My cholesterol now is lower than it was in my teens and I am 43. I'm on NO medication. My body cannot process carbs, and that includes the so called good carbs like wheat grains, many veggies and almost all fruits. 2 years ago my Doctor said I was on the fast track to getting Type 2 diabetes, and I cut almost all carbs completely out of my diet. My diet for the last 2 years has consisted of 10% calories from carbohydrates, 70% from fat, and 20% from protein. My blood sugar levels have dropped to well within the normal range.

It is terrible to hear the horrors of animal slaughtering, however I will continue to eat this way in order to avoid blood sugar complications later in life. I've done my homework on type II diabetes and after over 300 hours worth of research this is the conclusion I've arrived at. Perhaps if I had eaten better from my late 20's to late 30's I wouldn't have developed insulin resistence and issues with carbs, however I ate one too many pizzas, and processed food loaded with carbs during those years and the damage is irreversible. I can only halt the progression of damage by eating more of a Paleo diet and very low carb.

If you want more information google "Dr Bernstein and Diabetes Solution" or "Gary Taubes What if it's all a big fat lie"

I lost 100 pounds over the last 2 years eating meat, cheese, and dairy - I average about 3000 calories a day. I'm still not at the weight I was in my teens, but my blood lipid profile and my blood pressure are also better now then when I was in my teens and weighed 110. I go only go by my own experience and that is that I need to eat meat - and I'll take my chances on Mad Cow, over the certainty of blood sugar problems in my older age.
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #112
145. Well done
I'm on a similar diet right now. Lost 20 lbs since Jan 2.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
125. Sorry, I had a steak for dinner. Medium rare cooked, fucking good!
A video of animal cruelty from a few slauter houses in no way means thats how they're treated in the majority of them. By law, cows, pigs, chickens, whatever... are to be treated humanely. If not, and caught in the act, the company would face big charges.
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ordinaryaveragegirl Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
127. Went mostly veggie in '05...
And never felt better! I do eat some seafood, but am careful to make sure it's as eco-friendly as possible, like Wild Alaskan Salmon and other domestically caught varieties.

Soy products are a great alternative to dairy - much healthier for you, and much kinder to the planet.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
128. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #128
131. vegetarianism is good for the planet, and for the hungry
a meat calorie takes ten grain calories to produce, on average from what I have read. So if the issue is human suffering related to hunger, it is clear that meat production is a much greater drain upon world resources than eating grain. An increase in meat consumption in China has already been implicated in the current draw-downs in global food stocks, and in increased prices.

I eat meat myself, but recognize that vegetarians are on solid ground and have every right to advocate.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #131
195. A meat calorie does not equal a grain calorie
Meat protein is (a) easier for the body to absorb and (b) *far* richer in amino acids just for startes..

Hey Ive got no *beef* (someone had to do it) with vegetarians its the profits of the great vegan religion that get me in a nit. I'm rather thankful for vegans as a whole, my daughters are milk and egg allergic and were it not for some vegans I would not be able to bake them buttery tasting (thanks to black strap molasses) chocolate chip cookie you could imagine it taste as good as they did before I had kids.

Still when they get up on the high horse and start (a) distorting nutritional facts and (b) wagging their finger at people who eat meat I react a bit..
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #128
133. I will forever remember that episode. A classic!
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #128
134. So,
you're one of those folks who believe that we shouldn't think about the 'smaller' injustices until we deal with 'The Really Big Problems?'

Are you going to be the one who decides what 'The Really Big Problems' are? If not, who will? What then will our agenda be? Where do we start, and what are the dates for the things that make my insides curdle? What's first? Genocide in Sudan? The destruction of rainforests of SA? Restitution of Habeas Corpus, or the end of the occupation of Iraq? Health care for the poor or reinstituting the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts? We gotta get all that taken care of before we worry about BSE in school lunches and horrifying animal cruelty!

:sarcasm:

News flash: I'm capable of caring about more than one thing at a time, and you don't know me or what I work for. "Half my effort on helping human suffering...?" Would you really like to know what I've done in this arena, or would you prefer not to be embarrassed by your own assumptions? I'd be glad to share what I've done over the past few years working with Americorps with underserved children in urban schools and the communities they come from, what I've given up and the conditions that I've had to live with in order to do that work. Please feel free to ask.

If you want to make snap judgments about people who care about tainted food or horrifying cruelty to animals, fine. Go for it.

However, be aware that, for many, your interpretation is shallow and stupid. Calling folks who care about such things (vegan need not be capitalized--we're not from another planet) 'weirdos' and drawing on a cartoon that's jumped the shark isn't exactly strengthening your argument.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #128
135. Are you saying that people are not capable of dong several things simultaneously?
BTW, I am neither vegan nor a member of PETA. I used to like beef before the corporations took over everything and screwed it up with their tasteless frankencows, and I still wonder why it is that pigs are so damn tasty, but can't we deal with both issues?



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fedupconservative Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. I hunt my meat
as did my descendants and yours for thousands of years. IT is the reason many of us are here today. It's part of natural selection.

If you believe you are doing good by not eating meat, more power to you but it seems quite presumptuous, given man's history, to condemn those who choose to continue eating meat.
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Fierce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #138
146. You've got thousand-year-old descendants?
Amazing! And you attribute it to meat? Wow!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #138
173. As I stated, I do eat meat. There's hunting and there's hunting (i.e. Bow Hunting is pretty far up
the hunting scale, sitting in a tree perch with a scoped rifle and luring the animal in with bait is slaughter, not hunting). I'm not sure where you are on the scale, but that's not the point, there are myriad problems with the meat industry and we can address them as well as human concerns.

Another difference is that humans bring their own suffering upon themselves, the animals have no choice.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #128
147. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
139. Facts on mad cow from a nutrition edtior's view:
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 03:08 AM by Liberty Belle
I edit a nutrition journal and have written on mad cow before. This is a very serious situation. I believe mad cow HAS already made its way into the food chain. There are clusters of mad cow disease being covered up. Many people who ate at a New Jersey racetrack contracted what our government claimed was a "natural occurring" form of the disease.

Besides becoming a vegetarian or avoiding beef, how can you minimize your risk?

Buy organic beef. Organic cattle are not fed dead animals and are slaughtered in separate facilities. If you can't find organic, some (but not all) brands labeled "natural beef" may also be grain-fed. Look for "grain fed" on labels or ask your retailer or call the beef company to find out.

Some cuts are safer than others. There is minimal risk in cuts like steak or roasts. Ground meats are much riskier, as there could be ground-up bone. Same with hotdogs, sausages, and anything taken via a scraper process that scrapes meat off the spinal cord. If you must eat these meats, choose alternatives such as turkey hot dogs or pork sausauges, not beef.
Also avoid beef brains, which are sometimes found on menus in some Hispanic/Latino restaurants. If you don't know what it means, ask before ordering!

I would also urge everyone to complain to your Congressman about downed cattle in the food chain and about the failure to notify restaurants and the public about where these animals wound up.

Some have theorized that the sharp rize in Alzheimer's and other dementia in this country could be undiagnosed cases of mad cow, particularly in the elderly. There is no way to tell for sure without an autopsy, unfortunately.

I live in San Diego. I personally know of two cases here of unexplained deaths from Creutzfeld-Jacob disease (of which mad cow is one form). The patients had never traveled to England nor fit any other high-profile risks (weren't hunters who ate brains of game meat, hadn't had transfusions). Yet our government does not include these in its reports of mad cow.



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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #139
196. Thank you
for one of the most thoughtful and informative post on this thread..
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
143. Yes, I do still want to eat beef. Although kangaroo is sometimes nice as well,
it's not as cheap.

Yes, we have different standards here. Not wonderful, sure, but not batshit crazy like that.

:)

And much better food regulations. No offense, but whoever has been writing yours did not seem to have public health as their #1 priority.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
151. I've really cut down on the amount of beef I eat.....
.... But I'm a sucker for a corned beef sandwich.

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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
155. Damn fuckin a. I will still eat it n/t
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
156. Lots of small innocent animals are murdered by grain harvesting combines
and nobody eats them. They die for no reason. Perhaps you'll stop eating grains? Animal habitats are destroyed to be used for farms to grow vegetables. I know some "organic" farmers and what they put that label on. Yeah, I bet you think it's healthy. People will believe what they want to believe.

Proud beef eater here! :patriot:
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #156
171. now it makes sense!
Now I know why I occasionally find a field mouse head in my bag of flour or a tiny ear or tail in my cheerios!
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #156
183. ummm.....Let's think about this.
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 10:21 AM by Herdin_Cats
But meat requires far more grain per pound than if you were to just eat the grain. Hence, more animal habitat destroyed, and more innocent animals killed by combines. More wasted water, more wasted top soil, more petroleum used for harvesting. Not to more chemicals used as pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizer if the grain isn't organic.

By the way, when I was a kid, my uncle killed his kids dogs with the combine. Accidentally, of course. Horrifying.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
160. While I don't eat industry beef (I eat grass fed from a local farmer),
I do agree that there should be a more humane way of slaughtering the bulls and cows.

but as a nation where "we want it now" rules our stomachs, people are willfully ignorant as to how we get our meat from farm to table. Because, deep down people who eat meat know fully well where it comes from and how it gets there, they just don't want the messy details.

I, on the other hand, wanted to know and have witnessed the slaughtering of a bull. It took place at that local farm by a licensed butcher.

One, I was totally amazed at the speed at which this guy worked. and two, that animals death was a very sobering experience. Sobering in the fact that it gave it's life so I could eat it's flesh.

I still eat meat, but I'm very aware of each bite I take and what it took to get to my table.

I never ate a whole lot of meat to begin with, but now I appreciated it more on a far deeper level then before.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
166. Yeah
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
167. Yep. Love it.
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Norwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
178. Absolutely and I'll continue to enjoy it!
Food chain
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
179. Those BBQ ribs that I ate today were so tasty
after reading this post I feel like I'm going to throw out
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
180. Only if it comes from
a local ranch, and is grass-fed, organic, and processed on site.

There is some available locally for $2 lb plus cut and wrap, and more from other local places I haven't checked prices on.

I also love grass-fed buffalo when I can find it, and it's lower in fat and calories than beef.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
188. End this shit now.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
190. Morality based vegetarians remind me of church
but with less Jesus and more preaching.
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ruiner4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
199. Cow is yummie...
If god wanted us to eat veggies she would have not made animals so tasty...
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
200. I eat only organic beef.
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JosephSchmo Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
201. takes 1000 gallons of water for 1 lb of beef
Not eating 1 pound of beef would save as much water as not showering for about half a year. And healthier too.
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ruiner4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #201
205. yeah but steak tastes good...
Whats my carbon footprint when I turn on the grill and cook four ribeyes to medium rare?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #201
225. All the water that animals drink gets recycled
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
210. Neural tissue
10 years ago I gave up eating any beef that might have been contaminated by brain and spinal cord tissue - which is the place where the prions are located. No hamburger, no Tbones etc.

I suspect a lot of the Alzheimer's are, in fact, cases of Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

BTW Beef is the largest agriculture industry in the US at over $150 billion each year.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
211. Beef is the least murderous and most humane flesh most people generally eat.
Cows are much larger than turkeys, chickens or fish. Think how many meals are provided from the meat of just ONE cow -- just ONE animal death. On the other hand, a single person can easily eat an entire fish in one sitting, an entire chicken in a few days, or an entire turkey in a week. The more non-beef flesh people eat, the more deaths they cause.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
217. I'm not squeemish. Beef is yummy. :)
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
229. kick< Yep, avoiding beef since 1978! n/t
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
237. I'm as sure I want to keep eating beef...
... as fuckwit food nazis are sure they want to tell me what the fuck to eat.

That's pretty damn sure.
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