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Why the Dems Won’t Impeach Bush: Noam Chomsky Predicted 2008 Back in 1973

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:09 PM
Original message
Why the Dems Won’t Impeach Bush: Noam Chomsky Predicted 2008 Back in 1973
I am not making this up. I found this on the internet today. Here is a link. It is dated 1973.

Watergate: A Skeptical View by Noam Chomsky

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19730920.htm

In the wake of Watergate, when everyone was congratulating themselves on what a great job they were doing on cleaning up our democracy, Noam Chomsky spelled out the future of the United States. It was not a pretty picture, but it was accurate. Chomsky predicted the Bush-Cheney administration, its use of Article II to create an executive branch above the law and the Democratic Congress which seems incapable of impeachment.

About presidential powers:

Nixon's personal authority has suffered from Watergate, and power will return to men who better understand the nature of American politics. But it is likely that the major long-term consequence of the present confrontation between Congress and the President will be to establish executive power still more firmly. Nixon's legal strategy is probably a winning one, if not for him (for he has violated the rules), then for the position that the Presidency is beyond the reach of the law. Kleindienst, Ehrlichman, and Nixon's lawyers have laid the issue out squarely. In spite of their occasional disclaimers, the import of their position is that the President is subject to no legal constraints. The executive alone determines when and whom to prosecute, and is thus immune. When issues of national security are invoked, all bars are down.


About impeachment:

But reverence for the Presidency is far too potent an opiate for the masses to be diminished by a credible threat of impeachment. Such an effective device for stifling dissent, class consciousness, or even critical thought will not be lightly abandoned. Furthermore, Congress has neither the will nor the capacity to manage the domestic economy or the global system.

snip

If the choice is between impeachment and the principle that the President has absolute power (subject only to the need to invoke national security), then the latter principle will prevail. Thus the precedent will probably be established, more firmly and clearly than heretofore, that the President is above the law, a natural corollary to the doctrine8 that no law prevents a superpower from enforcing ideological conformity within its domains.


Where Nixon slipped up, according to Chomsky, is he attacked status quo figures—members of the Democratic Party moderate wing of whom the corporations approved and business figures( like Katherine Graham of the WaPo) when he should have limited himself to going after the counter culture. It is perfectly acceptable in the US to use illegal means to strip fringe groups such as communists of their Constitutional rights, but not people like Muskie or Kennedys. The American political system works by offering voters two parties which represent the same economic interests. Neither side is allowed to use illegal means to attack the other side.

But the conditions that permitted the rise of McCarthy and Nixon endure. Fortunately for us and for the world, McCarthy was a mere thug and Nixon's mafia overstepped the bounds of acceptable trickery and deceit with such obtuseness and blundering vulgarity that they were called to account by powerful forces that had not been demolished or absorbed. But sooner or later, under the threat of political or economic crisis, some comparable figure may succeed in creating a mass political base, bringing together socioeconomic forces with the power and the finesse to carry out plans such as those that were conceived in the Oval Office. Only perhaps he will choose his domestic enemies more judiciously and prepare the ground more thoroughly.


Chomsky closes by discussing how the illegal incursions into Cambodia and Laos—analogous to Bush and Cheney lying to trick us into war with Iraq---were grounds for impeachment. However, Congress, the press and the American people showed no will to impeach over this issue.

Regarding Kissinger:

Liberal political commentators sigh with relief that Kissinger has barely been tainted -- a bit of questionable wire-tapping, but no close involvement in the Watergate shenanigans. Yet by any objective standards, the man is one of the great mass murderers of the modern period. He presided over the expansion of the war to Cambodia, with consequences that are now well known, and the vicious escalation of the bombing of rural Laos, not to speak of the atrocities committed in Vietnam, as he sought to achieve a victory of some sort for imperial power in Indochina. But he wasn't implicated in the burglary at the Watergate or in the undermining of Muskie, so his hands are clean.


This is a fascinating document. What it says, in essence, is that the Democratic Congress is not broken. America is broken and needs to get its priorities straight.

The way to do that? New voters with new priorities and beliefs need to make their voices heard in the voting booth. The people who were children during the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties can change this equation. Immigrants will have a different outlook. People who were disenfranchised in 1973 but are now able to vote. And people who once drank the "we must be a strong America" kool aid but who have opened their eyes---all of them can make Noam Chomsky's prophecy for America no longer a reality.

I think maybe this is what change needs to be about.

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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Never happen
They have Obama stars in their eyes.

zalinda
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alllyingwhores Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Agreed...it will never happen because of a little thing called ELECTION FRAUD!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's the Kick the Dog syndrome. Even people who DESPISED Nixon felt the
pathetic tug on the sympathies for him as he gave his resignation speech and waved himself off in Marine One. After he left, there was this "Well, what NOW?" sense. Our long national nightmare WAS over, and it was swiftly followed by brutal stagflation. "Whip Inflation NOW!!!" Ford begged us. Acid rain fell from the skies, everyone drove rusty cars, and the landscape was COLD AND WET AND MISERABLE. We ended up not "feeling" better--we simply felt like a two pack a day smoker who has run a half mile with a bum knee, trying to escape from some bastard with a big knife and a drug habit who is trying to mug you. We felt like we had ESCAPED, but we were still upset, gasping for air, worried, even a bit frantic. Impeachment did not make us HAPPY over the long term.

Impeach Bush, and he'll engender SYMPATHY, and the voters just may, stupidly, give the GOP a second chance, just to show how "fair" they are, and to demonstrate that they understand he was "out of the norm."

We just don't need that shit....
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. We DO need that shit.
In a land that's held together by the "rule of law", it must remain rigid no matter what the immediate outcome. If you deviate from the system you can only expect a perverted system.

We are seeing a good example of that right now.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The purpose of impeachment is ONLY to remove someone from office.
That's all.

It is NOT a punishment. No jail, no public whipping, no frog marching, no nothing. Just "Get on Marine One and leave." Buh-Bye.

You remove someone if they are harming the system, harming people, getting in the way and fucking up the rule of law. Bush was doing that, but now he's painted into a corner. He doesn't have the freedom he used to have. He's trapped, weakened.

Congress has the upper hand now, Bush is hamstrung and a lame duck. He is in a box.

Impeach Bush, the GOP gets a sympathy backlash, and we get President Cheney until 2009 and then President McCain.

No thanks. We DON'T need that shit.

YMMV.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. I know what impeachment is
It's the FIRST STEP before you can arrest and convict.

If you think Bu$h is weakened then you haven't read the "Patriot" Act, Military Commissions Act, John Warner Act, Executive Directive 51, and coming soon the Homegrown Terrorism Act.

He doesn't have to "allow" an election, and the chance for impeachment may already be lost.
Please, friend, research these things, you'll understand the desperation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_and_Homeland_Security_Presidential_Directive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Radicalization_and_Homegrown_Terrorism_Prevention_Act_of_2007
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Well, sorry, but I have.
You aparently haven't studied the reauthorizations and the sunset provisions.

The 'chance for impeachment' IS lost. Do not hold your breath, you will turn blue, and keel over.

You do realize that The Congress Giveth, and the Congress Taketh Away. It is not that big a deal to repeal a law enacted by Congress. It's a bit tougher to amend/un-amend the Constitution (prohibition, e.g.) and we've been fortunate, during these past two hellish terms, to have avoided any major fucking with our "Just a Goddamned Piece of Paper."

The sky is no longer falling. We still have work to do, but it can, and will, be done.

The Hectoring Monkey in the Oval Office just had his last opportunity to fling pooh, and it went over like a lead balloon. Stick a fork in him, he's done.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I find your optimism uplifting, and hope I'm wrong.
And I have studied the reauthorizations and sunset provisions, I'm still not reassured.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. When Nixon was at the height of his hideousness, no one thought it could EVER get worse.
When the government was 'in excess' during the McCarthy era, and entire "categories" of people (Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the....COMMUNIST PARTY?????) were being "blackballed" or harassed, or wiretapped, or having their mail opened (sound familiar?) and even being DEPORTED, everyone ran around being afraid and VERY patriotic, and a lot of people thought "This is just THE WORST it could EVER be...we'll NEVER get over this!"

But we did. We do.

The beauty of our system of government is that we CAN survive the Pierces and the Hardings and the Nixons, Reagans and Bushes, and get the FDRs and JFKs and, despite the fact that the guy is out of favor this week, the Bridge to the 21st Century Bill Clintons.

We're going to elect a Democrat in November, so long as we don't engage in petty cannibalism, and things will be better still.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. "is that we CAN survive" Tell that to the dead
I count the soldiers, their families, the innocents of ours and other countries. Forget the suicides of the soldiers and despair of the economic refugees that pour from this President's policies, right?

If by we, you mean America, then I say you are probably 100% correct, but survival isn't good enough!

The beauty you see is blind to the misery those Presidents caused.

Your arguments are appealing and I definitely appreciate your optimism, but it just isn't good enough.

You call petty cannibalism what others call a cry for justice.

The people who really do not have an interest in calling this President to account for his sins are both Democrats and Republicans that want to preserve the status quo. And I do think you are trying to stir up fear that Democrats will be punished if they impeach. Have you really forgotten?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. There are always innocent victims, and there always WILL BE innocent victims.
It's unfortunate that humans just aren't always nice and justice doesn't always come soon enough.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. And every fucking time they came back they were stronger than before.
It CAN get worse, and it WILL get worse, and depending upon a jelly-spined congress to restore our rights and the primacy of the constitution is a fool's hope.

Yes, the opportunity for impeachment HAS passed because too many people think "he's on his way out the door as we speak", but he is leaving behind the framework for an American dictatorship, intact and fully functioning, and all we have to oppose it is Pelosi and Reid. Fat. Fucking. Chance.

This time, we have not escaped the mugger. He has his knife at our throats and he won't put it down just because we ask nicely.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. Well, it always seems worse when you're in the middle of it.
If you've weathered a few of these incidents you can take a longer view.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
90. Which longer view?
Rome did fall you know.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #90
104. And so will "Earth" one day. Life will go on, assuming we can find
a new place to live before the sun flames out.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
89. This is the worst argument yet
I don't know what kind of logic, reason, or understanding of history you apply to this. Governments DO fall, change, disintegrate, turn despotic, and sometimes they also reform and become better. Societies grow, change, collapse, and eventually fade. This is historically provable 100% of the time. This sort of status quo kind of reasoning not only is factually challenged it encourages non-action and disengagement from the political process. "Our government will survive this" does not challenge the electorate or the people to stand up and say "No." And power concedes absolutely nothing.

I honestly don't know what to say at this point.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #89
121. Well, you can think that if you'd like, and I can, in turn, think that your glass
was half full, only you knocked it over because you rejoice in being angry all the time and you seem to HOPE for the worst possible outcome.

I see better days ahead, no matter which Democrat is elected. You see doom, gloom, and a falling sky.

I honestly don't know what to say either--if you had a bottle of 'happiness' pills, I'd say take two and call your doctor in the morning.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. There is no "sympathy backlash" to fear.
You are fearing fear itself. In fact, impeachment may be the ONLY way to reunite our once-great nation. Certainly the only one in the short term.

And it is the Capitulosi Congress that is "hamstrung." They are literally impotent to do anything except impeach under "Rule By Signing Statement." We've watched it happen repeatedly since the day Madame Squeaker was sworn in. It's happening today with telecom immunity (crime coverup).

It is failure to impeach that is leading us to the cheney-puppet regime of 2009 by putting a clear alternative to criminality "off the table."

Impeachment is our ONLY moral, patriotic, (and legal, legislative, electoral, diplomatic...) option.

We need to get on with it.

---

PS: But even if the backlash bogeyman were real, why does "our side" get to play politics with torture? Why must Pelosi and the "leadership" act as the firewall for war criminals?

----
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. I'm not "fearing fear." If Saddam on the goddamn GALLOWS can engender sympathy,
Porgie being humiliated can and will as well, and "fear" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Where you get "fear" I have NO idea. Fearing fear? HUH???? What dark place do folks find this shit I never SAID, I wonder???

Here's my point, simply stated: People will feel SORRY for the guy--the ones who liked him once and now hate him, the ones who didn't care about him one way or another, and the ones who voted for him...TWICE. There's no FEAR in that concept. There's no FEAR in the picture of the poor abused puppy who needs your contribution to the shelter, is there? There's no FEAR in the pictures of the starving children who need your donations to Save The Children. It's heartstring-tugging time, that's ALL it is.

And the "meanies" who caused the "AWWWW, Poor Baby" effect take the hit.

We don't have time to deal with the cognitive dissonance of a nation just to deliver a finger wag and a 'naughty boy' to a stupid fellow who is already in a box, a lame duck, and would be replaced by Darth Cheney.

We have an election to win this very NOVEMBER--that's just around the corner. And following that we have an inauguration to enjoy.


Don't you remember the PATHOS surrounding Nixon? Even people who DESPISED him felt sad at the whole situation, and his crying daughters and stoic wife made the entire tableau a "Kick The Dog" scene.

Had Ford been able to get a handle on stagflation, and do more than shepherd us out of "the long national nightmare" he would have been reelected with no trouble. The fellow did not have "that vision thing" and that was his undoing. Carter, OTOH, HAD 'the vision thing' but he lacked an understanding of the mechanics of DC. His learning curve was too long, and what happened as a consequence? Ronnie happened.

Don't hold your breath. It's NOT gonna happen.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. Red herrings, false analogy and appeal to fear, fallacies galore
There are reasons that impeachment exists. All the false arguments why it shouldn't or can't happen amount to nothing when compared to the reasons why it is necessary.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. You keep believing that if it helps you. It won't happen, though. Not this time. NT
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. Doubleclick!
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 07:17 AM by MADem
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. If impeachment is merely a "finger wag"...
...how would it cause this election-determining "backlash" you fear?

Failing to impeach for war crimes projects weakness -- which is the Dems real trouble with the electorate. And they're the ones http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/opinion/07tue1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin">"in a box" because of it.

As Bill Clinton said: "We have got to be strong. When we look weak in a time where people feel insecure, we lose. When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody who's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right." (And he knows a bit about winning elections.)

Impeachment would improve Dem outcomes in November.

But I suppose if you "don't have time to deal" or are so afraid we might "get President Cheney until 2009" (BTW, which is it?), we'll just have to fight on without you.

Perhaps "The Impeachers" will be the last constituency left for the candidates to pander to in the primaries."Impeach To Win" could become the buzzword slogan that rocks the nation. And still be the first step toward Redeeming Our National Soul.

You never know what might happen.

And FWIW, I'm old enough to not have to remember the 70s as a "tableau...scene" of slogans. I remember Ford losing -- in large part for being weak on Nixon (the benign "shepherd" thing came later). And I remember Carter being dragged down by a mysteriously-caused oil crisis and a mysteriously-long hostage crisis. Both of which made him seem weak.

--
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. If you read what I wrote, you'll figure it out.
Public humiliation, even if deserved, creates a backlash of sympathy for the person being shamed. That backlash benefits the party so affronted.

If you recall, the reason Bush was selected in 00 is because the Supremes made the decision--we know which party actually won that race, and it wasn't the GOP.

Please feel free to be as snarky as you'd like, because I'm telling you, one last time, impeachment ain't happening. Fear has nothing to do with it, nor does your rather 'interesting' take on historical timelines, and views of rather straightforward abd highly publicized shenanigans on the part of OPEC as "mysterious."

Bush will take a July vacation on MARS instead of an August jaunt to the ranch before you will see impeachment. And you don't have to "agree" or "disagree" with me, but time will bear me out.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I figured out that you fear a "backlash."
I'm just saying there isn't one to fear.

It's the sympathy that "has nothing to do with it." The only ones who would sympathize with these war criminals would vacation on Mars before voting for any Dem ever.

As for the DC Dems failing in their duty to impeach, I do "agree" that is most likely. But on the other hand, I read this today:
Rob Kall, editor of OpEdNews.com, tells me that he asked Conyers today about impeachment, and Conyers said "Impeachment is not off the table."

And with the Wexler petition topping 200K, combined with George McGovern's recent call for sanity, who knows.

Impeachment could drop like a ripe fruit at any time.

---

PS: OPEC's increase of output to offset the minor loss from Iran was indeed straightforward, but rather the opposite of a "shenanigan."

--
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I don't fear it, any more than I 'fear' sunrise or sunset.
Backlash is a natural reaction to "piling on." It's Psych 101. Nixon became a sad and pathetic figure, as did Saddam on the gallows.

Military intervention in Iran isn't off the table, either, but it grows less likely as each day passes.

OPEC's actions WERE shenanigans--they were flexing their muscle and seeing what they could get away with.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. Additionally...
The Clinton Sympathy is probably due to the fact that nearly 50% of all people have been less than totally loyal to their spouse or SO, or have at least considered infidelity.

I don't know what percentage of Americans have considered lying their way into starting a war, depriving people of their right to vote, illegally wiretapping people, keeping enemies lists, firing people based on their politics, or tracking peace movements, etc (and a lot more etc) but I suspect the number would probably be somewhat less than 50%.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
112. Well, Clinton really didn't get sympathy.
What he got was support from the 70+ percent of Americans that still know what's important and see things as they really are, regardless of Euphemedia and RNC/Fauxnewz propagandizing. What you describe is the means by which many came to that political (non-sympathetic) decision to oppose that impeachment farce.

In the impeachment of bushcheney, we could expect similar (reversed) reaction and consequently, a reunited nation.

---
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. Yes!
I completely agree with you on that score. Clinton did have favorable ratings prior to Starr and the repugniks decided to carry out the never ending investigation of nothing, and settle for a steamy intern sex thing. Most Americans were tired and frustrated of it and thought Bill was doing a fairly good job (though I think there have been better Democrats)
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. Was there a sympathy backlash for Charles Manson when he
was convicted of his crimes? How about winning, charming, smiling Ted Bundy?

When a criminal is convicted of his crimes, there is no 'sympathy backlash'.

Impeachment is the FIRST step. THEN, on with the criminal trials to put Bush and his cronies in prison, until such time as we turn them over to the Hague for the international war crimes trials.

The only reason impeachment is not going to happen is there are too many cowards on our side saying it is not going to happen.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
79. No offense, but that's an absurd stretch. ABSURD. Those are crummy examples.
Charles Manson wasn't a politician in public life. He didn't have a track record of foreign policy successes and a mixed domestic record, as well as a record of intrigue, civil liberties excesses and law-flaunting. He wasn't elected to the Presidency by a CRUSHING majority.

Manson was a fucking kook who, with a group of other kooks, went into a private home and murdered famous, beloved people, including a famous, beloved, beautiful pregnant woman. The backlash came when they got rid of the death penalty in CA and that fucker was commuted to life in prison.

Ted Bundy was a serial killer. Not President.

You can pretend there was no backlash re: Nixon, but I distinctly remember one. Clearly. Folks felt sorry for Julie, Tricia, and Pat, and they even felt sorry for Crazy Old Dick waving from Marine ONE...and sympathy for him grew when reports leaked out that he was wandering around the WH talking to the pictures, crying, drunk, and asking that Baaastid Kissinger to pray with him. He went from a nefarious bastard to a pathetic, loser, nefarious bastard. And he went into "exile," and after he had done his time in the wilderness, he was brought back into society as a foreign policy whiz and bestselling author, and he ended his days, if not elevated, rehabilitated--because people DID 'feel sorry' for him.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. That's because he never went to trial.
If he had been impeach, tried and convicted for conducting the illegal wars in SE Asia, for the violations of civil rights at home, that sympathy would have never existed, because if there's anything Americans hate it's a criminal politician. How much sympathy is there for Cunningham? You do know that there is a standing warrant in Spain for Kissinger, for war crimes. If he ever sets foot there he will be arrested and sent to the Hague for trial. The world knows that we protected high level criminals. And it's coming back to bite us in the ass.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. See, we're back to my point. All impeachment does is REMOVE the politician from office.
Nixon avoided the "label" by resigning.

You can't know how the trial might have played out, which witnesses might have been called and what sort of a legal team he might have mustered. He certainly would have been impeached, Goldwater's nose-count tells us that, but there's no way to know if he would have been convicted.

Even slam-dunks often surprise. After all, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Ask Robert Blake and Michael Jackson as well about those 'sure thing' trials--they aren't always sure things.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
66. Maybe Saddam got sympathy becacuse he went to trial in a
kangaroo court and the verdict was decided before the first drop of the gavel. Maybe, if the US had allowed it, he would have gotten less sympathy by going before the international court, like that Serbian warlord had (the name momentarily escapes me), and received a fair and impartial trial before being sentenced to life in prison.

There is no way you can spin Saddam's trial to be an example of justice served, nor use it as an excuse for not seeing justice served on Bush.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. I am not interested in the why. The fact is that the piling on and the death sentence, even amongst
those who felt he deserved to die, created a blowback effect.

I really don't care, though, about the why, or the how, or the maybe speculation.

The fact is, Bush will not be impeached. Cheney will not be impeached. You can cry about it from now until Inauguration Day if you'd like, you can hector me about it, but it ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps someone who is wronged by him will try to sue him civilly down the line. But shrimp will whistle and fish will fly before Porgie gets impeached. Like it, or not.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Well, I do not like.
Impeachment is a legal remedy. When the people have no legal remedy to a problem with their government you wind up with illegal remedy. Assassination. Civil war.

That is where not impeaching will lead us. Just look at it. A brief over-view:

1934 - the Business Plot. Failed RW coup.
1950 - the rise of McCarthy. An out-of-control senator. More dangerous than the business plot as it is withhin the government, using governmental power.
1970 - Nixon, an out of control president. This guy can start wars. Much worse than McCarthy, using the full force of the government and its agencies, not mere congressional committees, to gather power to the executive - remember the 'Palace Guard'?
1980 - Bush 1 brought to power with Reagan - his daddy was in on the Business Plot. Lays the groundwork for
2000 - successful RW coup as the supreme court illegally decides who should be president. Worse than any previous crisis, for all the reasons cited in this thread, and many more besides.

This isn't a repeating cycle. This is a cumulative seizing of power from the people and congress, and handing it to the chief executive, each building on the framework of the previous. Unless that framework is legally dismantled the end result will HAVE to be the dismantling of the constitution. They cannot co-exist.

And when the dismantle the constitution, there will be war. And that war will make the last civil war look like a Golden Gloves match.

There are causes, and there are effects. Your self-proclaimed disinterest in the causes means you have no way of judging the potential effects. You, and those like you such as Pelosi and Reid, are part of the problem. It is a narrow-minded and short sighted point of view, looking only to the next election. It is suicidal, because in the long run it will lead to the end of elections.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I think you're shopping a rather over-involved conspiracy theory, actually.
You're welcome to hold those views, I simply can't subscribe to them.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a "Wee Cowboy" with backing from corporate interests can manage to steal a Presidency.

I'm in the "Once Burned, Twice Shy" club. And I like Pelosi and Reid. I think they're doing a fine job.

I think we'll do better with our next pick, no matter who we end up with. We've reached the bottom of the barrel, and there's nowhere to go but up.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. I'm sure the Iraqis thought the same thing when Saddam was in power.
I wish I could say that I thought you are right.

What's the "one burned twice shy"? We have not been burned by impeaching these criminals, nor suffered any backlash from it. BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. We've been burned by bad governance. I think we'll try real hard
in the near term to shy away from idiots, and pick a good leader.

See, before Nahn Wun Wun, we honestly thought the Pretzledunce didn't matter--if they had good advisers, or a shadow President like Reagan had (Baker) why, they'd sort it out, more or less.

This guy has been so incompetent and has chosen incompetent people as well.

We want competence as a first qualification.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. This is not mere incompetance.
Look at it from THEIR point of view. They have successfully castrated congress. They've got their majority on the supreme court. They've got DREs in voting booths across the country which, if not used to actually cheat, DO diminish the general public's faith in the voting booth. They've entrenched the used of signing statements as a way of subverting legislation. They've enriched oil companies and military contractors beyond comprehensible limits.

This has been a VERY competant administration, if you look at what their real goals are.

And don't believe that we will just walk away with the coming election. They have the power and this time, with the Patriot Act and other rights-diminishing legislation, have the capability of NOT giving it up. We are just one terror attack away from permanent martial law.

BTW, I always thought that your Pretzledunce mattered - because I have full faith and awareness of cause and effect, and I knew who his CIA/Iran-Contra/Don't remember November 23rd/get rich off the Nazis Daddy and Granddaddy are. It is called the BFEE for a reason.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Well, my mileage varies. They aren't competent. They're blatant thieves and they
rely on cheating, cronyism, destruction of government property and collusion to get their way. But if they were REALLY smart, they wouldn't have stumbled so badly-- Scooter wouldn't have had to take the fall, Gonzo would still be AG, and Harriet Miers would be tucked up in her robe and warming the bench on the Supreme Court.

They're incompetent. Their incompetence will be revealed, because they're too fucking stupid to do a good job of destroying the evidence. And they can't kill everyone. Someone, eventually, will talk. At this agency, at that one, at this other one.

States are the ones who decide what voting system is used, not the Feds. As those red states turn blue, those voting systems will change. You can only cheat around the MOE, and they know that...and even the MOE can't cut them a win. People are too pissed off.

Your glass is half empty. Mine is half full, and here comes the waiter with the pitcher....
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #85
98. Anybody who has lived through 8 years of Bush and still thinks he's "just stupid" is deluded.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. Well, thanks for those kind words.
:eyes:
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. The truth hurts, doesn't it?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Well, it wasn't the truth. I figured I'd be pleasant as opposed to using
terms like "clueless buffoon" or "unmitigated ass."

See, one actually has to give a shit to engage, and that's just not happening with you!

So you have a swell day, now!

:hi:
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #108
119. You have never been pleasant in your life, so don't hold in now...
I think the phrase "Ignorance is bliss" has been invented just for people like you.

Yeah, the Bush-administration is only incompetent and stupid. Yeah, sure, that's why they and their corporate friends have made millions of dollars from a war that cost millions of people their lives and they haven't been arrested... :eyes:

I hope you have a nice day licking your corporate masters' ass. :hi:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. Awww, I don't HAVE a "corporate master" but thanks SO MUCH for caring!
You must know a little something about that, since it came so swiftly to mind, hmmmmm?

:hi: backatcha, now!
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Then what do you call HRC?
Enjoy licking her boots. Okay? Buh-bye. :hi:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Are you always this immature? Why, I believe you ARE!!!
:hi: back atcha!! Enjoy your fifth birthday party! Or is it your fourth coming up?

:party:
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. This is what psychologists call 'projection'. You project your faults on someone else.
I hope you will get good treatment soon, so you won't bother us intelligent people on DU anymore. :hi:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Yes, that is precisely what you are doing. Good call, there, Sigmund!!! NT
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. I see you're getting desperate at trying to outsmart me.
Well, your replies never were really clever to begin with.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Oh, MY!!!
Cut me with a KNIFE!

:rofl:



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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Can you BE any lamer?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. ,,,
:rofl:

Awfully annoyed, are you?
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Yes. You. Can!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. By their supporters we shall know them.... nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Does that mean your candidate is as annoying as you?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
96. This response sums your points quite well, but you are still wrong. nt
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
40. The lethality of lame ducks and impeachment as self defense
I'm completely at a loss to explain how the so-called congressional leadership could possibly think it's a bad idea to risk its lofty 11 percent approval rating by impeaching a universally loathed vulture who's even less popular than Congress. Or his delusional marionette for that matter.

I think they're at their most deadly as lame ducks. They have little to lose and obviously lack any traces of conscience or moral compass. I think they'll choose to go out with a bang.

So I think impeachment of Bush, Cheney and perhaps a dozen more high-ranking administration figures is critical if the world is to avoid the ruinous consequences of another year of Bush-style brinksmanship. Iranians probably think impeachment is one hell of a good idea about now.

Domestically, impeachment may be the only way to ensure that this country survives in recognizable form with these short-timer psychopaths at the wheel for 12 more months. Their legacies are shot, they're high on the list of the 10 most despised people in recorded history, they have little left to lose in terms of dignity or honor, and they obviously lack any trace of conscience or moral compass.

What's worse, they have the combined weight of seven years of unconstitutional legislation, nullification of the most basic rights and freedoms, government by executive order, fiat and signing statement and the systematic elimination of the checks and balances needed to constrain an executive branch run amok.

So they can now go completely nuts and their track record indicates that all that authority will be used to worsen the economic and social dislocation at home and expand the bloody carnage abroad. All that and, as a parting gesture, they'll be sure to steal a few hundred million more for themselves and their pals on their way out of town.

I think Pelosi and Reid are either complete fucking idiots, spineless enablers or conniving co-conspirators. Either that or the grand plan is way too deep and complex for my mediocre mind to grasp.

But I don't really think that's the case. These people are the living embodiments of shallow, fantasy-based, short-term thinking. They lack the depth and wisdom necessary to be real political forces. They're just DLC figureheads and they're even lousy at that.


wp
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. It may be that such a sinister explanation is unnecessary
Chomsky's article identifies some critical errors Nixon made. Bush/Cheney's team could have just learned from Nixon's mistakes. Read that Chomsky article, it's a good one. Chomsky explains how the whole system is broken and it doesn't require Pelosi or Reid to be any of those things you suggested, there is a simpler explanation.
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alllyingwhores Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. "Congress has the upper hand now" are you fucking joking?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. No. I am not "fucking joking." But way to foster discussion there, professor! NT
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ladywnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
33. once impeached and removed from office there CAN be criminal trial
AND jail time and turning them over to the Hague but they must be removed from office and striped of their protections first.

There is NOTHING in the law that would prevent them from criminal trial after impeachment. NOTHING.
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ladywnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
35. And after Nixon resigned the Dems retook the house and senate
with resounding numbers. This has been talked about on Olberman's show with Constiututional expert Turley. There was concern that impeachment would backfire but it didn't and it won't now.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
45. You are not looking at the whole picture. Impeachment and the subsequent trial
will/would establish forever the shame of this horrendous chapter of American history. It also carries very real consequences such as the withdrawal of his pension and SS (how ironic is that) security. Who wants to be known as a major donor to the Presidential Library of a criminal thug?

It would give the next President the opportunity to initiate the dramatic changes that are required to save the nation by unifying the country behind the spirit of reform, and make no mistake, that is the real fear among the ruling class. As it stands, if he is allowed to retire with his "honor intact" the next President will face a series of crises that will make the late 70s "the good old days" by comparison and will yield a single term followed by the next "Republik Mandate". Obama, Clinton, or Edwards will only have 4 years to bask in the glow of power, and the we'll be well and truly shorn.

Mark my words, if the chicken shits in congress let this cabal get away without any consequences, we will have a Republik President and Legislature in 2010/2012. What do you think that will yield?



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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Well said!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
78. I AM looking at the whole picture, and I am stating that you have a better chance
of winning the trifecta in the two o'clock race than seeing an impeachment of this guy.

Give it up, it ain't gonna happen. Civil suits later? Could happen. But impeachment? Not only no, but hell no...
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. Yeah right
No president has ever been brought to criminal court for executive actions taken during his administration after he is out of office.

Presidents have been impeached.


So stop with the BS "Maybe someday" arguements, or the faux insider racing track analogies already and deal with the facts.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. Well, we've never had a black or female president either.
Just because it has never happened, doesn't mean it can't.

You have a nice day, now. You're too fucking angry and righteous to have a normal discussion on this subject. Go chew a couch pillow or something.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Your subject line is a personal insult and is not appreciated.
I am not treating you with "contempt." You're simply too invested in the subject, and angry at my unwillingness to go along with your assertions, that further conversation was unproductive. You won't be moved, and neither will I.

You have a nice day now. I mean that.

:hi:
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. While...
I do not condone that posters tone, though I do find your characterization of my argument as "unproductive" to be deeply flawed.

I think you are being intellectually dishonest in your implying that Bush will be legally pursued after he is out of office, because 'it might be a first time for it.'

Your argument still does not stand historically speaking. The argument for impeachment actually does have prescedent and history on its side (even if not, sadly speaking, my grammar or spelling).
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. I perceived contempt of the constitution
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 10:28 PM by Mithreal
I am not angry that you do not agree with my assertions. Maybe I misunderstood you and you DO believe Bush and Cheney deserve impeachment, but you are right that I should not have called you out in ANY way, shape, or form a hypocrite, for that I stand corrected and will endeavor to do better.

The subject line was meant to be taken with a laugh but you are absolutely right, it was offensive.

I wish you a good day as well.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. Oh, I do think they DESERVE it. Completely. Look at my little photo
at the bottom of my posts, it's Bush, visiting Putin, holding a sign that conveys my views.

However, I live in the real world, which includes the real "political" world, where words are twisted, small events are made large, and bullshit often takes center stage. The climate right now, with elections looming and hyperbole reigning, is inhospitable to impeachment. It's just not productive to excoriate or reject politicians who take a pragmatic view, and I won't be one of those who does that.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
71. Oh gods
We do need impeachment. Politically, strategically, constitutionally, it is needed by any measure.

We are the ones in the box. Congress has accomplished very little and in the court of public opinion (thanks to our corportate media) congress has been portrayed as weak and ineffectual, nevermind the republicans have been the most obstructionist congress in history. The Republicans have won a massive strategic victory and the Democrats have just rolled over and let them get away with it.

They ran from the war and the Dem's are now so brainwashed that they are repeating victory propaganda in Iraq (despite another five soldier dying in Iraq just yesterday). They folded on authorizing wiretaps and elements of the patriot act. I would have to say that the wire tap provisions are already authoritarian enough, does it really matter whether Telecom companies get away with enabling it?

The fact of the matter is that this administration has been monstrously criminal and if we fail to hold it liable for its crimes then we will have set a new low for expectation and a new level for executive power and overreach.

Before Ceaser there was Sulla.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. Well, you may think that, but it ain't gonna happen. No matter how hard you wish for it. NT
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. Well then
Thank you for your friggin support. I think that the arguments in opposition to impeachment are based on groundless fear, and historical and political myopia. We are not living in 1998, Bush is not a popular president, the war is unpopular as are the lies that got us there, the American people get angry at bush any time his crimes are brought to the fore, Lying to go to War is not the equal of lying about sex.

I personally have no idea why some establishment Democrats are being so absolutely gun-shy or strategically stupid about this.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. Don't shoot the messenger. It's not going to happen, and to rile people up with
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 03:41 PM by MADem
a suggestion that it is, is disingenuous and a waste of people's time and energy. Better they focus on electing a Democrat to the Presidency.

And calling people "strategically stupid" is hardly a way to win converts to your cause.

But hey, have a nice day!

:hi:
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #95
107. Gee
I didn't know you were an "establishment Democrat." Do you actually work for someone important, or do you just come here to spam against impeachment?

Honestly, when I insult you personally I am certain you will be a bit more aware of it.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
92. absolutely wrong. The purpose of impeachment is to define the role
of the presidency itself. and of the checks and balances as defined in the Constitution.
this has been said and written about by constitutional scholars from both parties.
impeachment has NOTHING to do with George Bush,and everything to do with democracy. it is not a personal issue, but a constitutional one. It is critical to understand this fundamental difference. the ONLY remedy the Constitution provides for an executive out of control, is impeachment, and the Constitution does not define impeachment as optional, but as the necessary step for congress to t take.

it is all about the balance of power.
i highly recommend you watch a Bill Moyer's Journal report on impeachment. It is about 6 mos old,a nd can be seen on the web.
if you google bill moyer's Journal, you can find the episode with Bruce Fein. It is a must see, to understand what impeachement means.

Whether or not Bush gets kicked out of office is completely irrelevant here. The playing out of the process itself is much more important than Bush or than this moment in time.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
100. No, it isn't. That was dramatic, but it wasn't true.
You don't just impeach PRESIDENTS, you see, you impeach a number of public officials who are doing a shitty job and you want them gone.

Church isn't out, either, on the "mandated" aspect you assert in the Constitution. There's no agreement there, otherwise we'd be down that road already.

It's a tool, is what it is. It's certainly not the ONLY tool. Remember, the President doesn't make LAWS, Congress does. The President doesn't hold the purse strings, Charlie Rangel does.

If you try, and fail, to unload the current President, you bring a world of shit down on this nation...and for what? Revenge?

The guy is boxed in, a lame duck. That's why Charlie Rangel was laughing at him last night.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
113. Congress has the upper hand now, Bush is hamstrung and a lame duck. He is in a box.
IN WHAT FUCKING UNIVERSE?

Not the one WE are currently residing in.

The Dems have CAVED - CAVED to every fucking one of the WAR Criminal's DEMANDS!

EVERY FUCKING ONE!

you are fucking clueless - simply clueless!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. Why do you support the weaklings, then? Why do you bother if they're so awful?
Look who's clueless!!

I happen to be a pragmatist, and I understand the give-and-take of political accomodation.

You, on the other hand, are telling me that my party is full of caving weaklings. So who's the "fucking clueless" one here, pray tell? You keep coming back to a party that plainly doesn't meet your needs, as evidenced by your angry post, while I am pleased with the gains we continue to make every day.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Nixon was a lie, Ford was a lie, Bush is a lie --- and two corporate parties are lies ---
We need to impeach Bush ---and we have to keep after this Congress to do so --

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
63. BULLSHIT
We DIDN'T impeach Nixon. The ones who "escaped" were Nixon, and Kissinger and the WH Nazis who laid the groundwork for today.

If we actually HAD impeached, and not let him off with a handshake and gold watch WE WOULD NOT BE WHERE WE ARE NOW. Which is exactly Chomsky's point - we didn't have the political will to actually take on the president, and thus strengthened the imperial presidency.
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End Of The Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
109. Bravo!
What scares me most is that in four years or eight years the same neocons will be back in power, having spent their "time off" perfecting their criminal methodologies. They need to be exposed, their ideologies need to be exposed, the public needs some level of understanding of what they've perpetrated, and the way to do this is IMPEACH (for starters) then INDICT if you can.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
94. The only reason you object to impeachment, is because you want SHillary to have all the powers
Bush had and the full authority to use them, without fearing they will impeach her. Because if Bush could do so without being impeached, why should SHillary?

Also, SHillary is complicit in the crimes Bush committed (like IWR), and you fear an impeachment effort will hurt her in the primaries. That's also the reason why she doesn't want impeachment.

You put your candidate over your party and your party over your country.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 03:22 PM by Solly Mack
Aahhhh

Smell the freshness

As an aside, I've never had "reverence for the Presidency"
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Me neither, but I was born in 1959, grew up knowing Nixon was a very naughty man.
When you spend your childhood seeing civil rights figures and the counter culture as the real moral force of the country and despising the president, you do not grow up to be someone who thinks that impeachment should be off the table. This is why there are so many Americans like me---in their 40s who wonder why the people in Congress in their 50s and 60s can not get down to impeaching W. and Cheney.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm in my 40's as well. Maybe that is why I never have...
Just never have...and really have never seen the point in it either.
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R_M Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. kick
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 03:40 PM by R_M
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R - Good find!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, McCamy Taylor.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks K&R n/t
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great find, it led me to this Robert Parry article
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/122806.html


- snip -
Indeed, given Ford’s appointment of Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George H.W. Bush to key jobs, one could argue that the Ford administration served as an incubator for the imperial presidency’s rebirth – even if he personally opposed it.

- snip -
The inconclusive ending to Watergate, with Nixon never forced to admit specific wrongdoing, permitted his die-hard supporters to nurse resentments about the supposed unfairness of it all. Indeed, that anger drove the American Right to build an infrastructure of media, think tanks and pressure groups to protect some future Republican President from “another Watergate.”

- snip -
Historians can trace the start of the long comeback for the imperial presidency to when Ford’s team started to push back against congressional and citizen initiatives for reform.

- snip -
Still simmering over Nixon’s forced resignation, Republicans took the offensive against Iran-Contra investigators who dug too deep. One of the most combative Republicans on the congressional Iran-Contra committee was Rep. Dick Cheney of Wyoming.

Cheney insisted that no wrongdoing had occurred and refused to sign the final majority report. He then worked with the Republican staff, including David Addington, to author a minority report that argued in favor of a broad constitutional interpretation of the President’s powers.

- more at link -


These men knew exactly what they were doing. They planned their long-term goals well. Time was on their side. It was about placing extraordinary power into the hands of abusive & greedy men. The coup of 2000 put in an unassuming and likable guy to front their greedy enterprises. The war on terror with it's over-used fear card has served them well. I've wished time and again to RICO these bastards.

An honorable president would not use these powers, and they know it. The powers are now in place to be used again once the dust has settled and they pin the blame of what ails America on the Democrats. Then they'll plant fear into the hearts of unsuspecting and sleeping Americans going about their daily routines, rousing them to another patriotic nationalistic furor.

I'm hoping a good president and a Congress not worried about their next election will effect laws making no president and the multitudes of his appointees above the law - at any time, because as we've witnessed, using national security as a reason to grant absolute power is corruptible. It weakens our nation. We actually end up with national insecurity.


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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. I Suspect Bush Jr. Has Destroyed Forever the Reverence for the President!
And that is not a bad thing. The President is a fallible human, and that's why the Constitution has checks and balances--or at least, until Nancy Pelosi, it had.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. We are beyond what you expect
Jefferson warned us, the problem is that nobody is heeding his warning... but we are at that point

Elections? You surely jest, especially when they can be manipulated

By the way MAKE THEM STEAL YOUR VOTE, this means SHOW UP and vote... but don't expect it to count the way you cast it

Immigrants do have a different outlook, in that you can bet your sweet ass
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yep, that is why they want to vilify them
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Actually the outlook I just gave you is one from an immigrant
I will be there to vote... but I don't expect it to count, or be counted the way I cast it

And that my friend is a different way of looking at things

Duty my ass...
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. We can learn from CREEP and 1972 since the same tactics are being used now.
http://www.trivia-library.com/a/president-richard-m-nixon-reelection-and-creep.htm

Every arm of Government was politicized to an unprecedented degree in order to insure his reelection; a massive campaign of sabotage and espionage helped to divide and discredit the President's opponents.

snip

Meanwhile, the Democrats' intraparty difficulties played directly into Nixon's hands. After an unusually bitter preconvention fight, the party nominated Sen. George McGovern of South Dakota--an outspoken antiwar liberal who had alienated many party regulars and labor leaders.


The man behind the 1972 dirty tricks was MSNBC's very own Pat Buchanan, whom I discuss in several of my recent journals including

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/130

(From the Washington Post)

Republican presidential candidate Patrick J. Buchanan strongly favored a plan of "covert operations" to harass and embarrass Democratic contenders in the heady days at the Nixon White House before the Watergate scandal.
Then a White House speechwriter and enthusiastic member of the Nixon campaign's "attack group," Buchanan laid out his ideas in an April 10, 1972, memo looking ahead to that summer's Democratic National Convention in Miami Beach. It was addressed to Attorney General John N. Mitchell and White House Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman.
On the memo's last page -- one never turned over to Watergate congressional investigators – Buchanan and his top aide recommended staging counterfeit attacks by one Democrat on another, fouling up scheduled events, arranging demonstrations and spreading rumors to plague the rival party, all the while being careful not to run afoul of the Secret Service.


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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
68. And Buchanan is still doing it - witness the way he gleefully leaped
into the Clinton/Obama contest.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. Americans HAVE made their will crystal clear.
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 06:21 PM by pat_k
The message of the last election could not have been clearer: Voters utterly rejected the corrupt Bush regime and their quasi-fascist rubber stamp Congress. The election was a cry for help. It was an appeal to Democrats to "Get Us Out OF Bush World!"

Just before the election, Newsweek found that a majority wanted impeachment to be a priority in the new Congress. Last January they found that 58% "personally wish the Bush presidency were over." (references http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2753090">in this post)

Members of Congress are getting an unprecedented number of calls, emails, faxes, and visits from Americans who are calling for impeachment. Local governments are passing resolutions to impeach. San Francisco (Pelosi's own district) passed a resolution to impeach by 60%. Countless ordinary and prominent citizens, countless groups large and small, are calling for impeachment. (With the Florida ACLU and George McGovern being the latest to join the chorus.).

Sure, some Americans bought the propaganda that something short of impeachment could save us, but that doesn't change the fact that voters called on them to rescue us. And it doesn't change the reality -- that fighting for impeachment is the only way out and the only way Members of Congress can fulfill their oath to defend the Constitution.

The notion that failure to impeach is "our falt" is crap. We aren't the ones who took and oath to "support and defend." We aren't the ones who are failing to carry out that oath.

With every failure to "do something" Members of Congress confirm their impotence in the face of rule by signing statement. They have exhausted all their options, and yet these so-called "leaders" continue to do everything in their power to suppress the will to impeach.

They have managed to silence many with their efforts to relegate impeachment to the realm of the impossible. (Why demand something that you believe -- however mistakenly -- is utterly and completely impossible?) But still the calls and letters keep coming. More voices are joining the chorus.

People keep hammering and they are showing the strain. They are getting testy. They are sounding more and more hysterical and defensive. They are saying "leave us alone already!" Pelosi lashes out at her constituents. Barney Frank complains about the people "who are insisting on impeachment." He attempts to marginalize them as "the left." (you can almost hear the modifier "looney" in his tone). (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3604951">source).

And Reid dismisses impeachment advocates as fools (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=334569&mesg_id=334745">reference) (Apparently he thinks the Nevada State Democratic Party is "foolish" since they passed a resolution to impeach at their 2006 convention. Reid purged it, but that doesn't change the fact that the his own state's party passed it.)

Despite their best efforts, they haven't been able to make us "go away." And the people who are "doing something" are an example to others. More and more people are refusing to be manipulated. More and more people are refusing to buy the "company line."

Given the length of time that Americans have been hammered with the message "You are powerless" the level of engagement is remarkable.

The people ARE speaking, but the folks on the Hill continue to be immobilized by their irrational, deeply ingrained, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/23">impeachobphobic fears. They are trapped in a created "reality" that has deviated further and further away from truth and fact as false assumptions beget more ever more wrong-headed beliefs.

The people are not failing the nation. Members of Congress are failing the people. Members of CONGRESS are refusing to carry out their sworn duty to "support and defend."

Yes, the solution is for us to keep hammering. To mount serious primary challenges. To keep injecting reality into the insular world of the beltway by confronting their rationalizations (lame excuses) every chance we get. To keep showing our fellow Americans that We do have the power to make impeachment a reality.

Group think is a powerful force. We are seeking to breakdown destructive patterns of thought that have pervaded the Democratic establishment for years. They invoked the same excuses when they refused to impeach Reagan and Bush I (http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/24"> "It's like Deja vu all over again".

It is not for lack of intervention that their impeachophobia persists. It is the power of the "disease." For the sake of the nation, we can't give up. But we should be applauding the efforts and progress we have made; not kicking ourselves or pointing the finger of blame at our fellow Americans.

Why is it that the people (and this includes Chomsky) who are the most vocal in telling "the people" how powerless they are in the face of corporate power and money seem to be the ones who berate "the people" for believing them and withdrawing in hopeless apathy?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. The solution is to go beyond hammering. The solution is to vote them out of office and replace them.
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 06:57 PM by McCamy Taylor
If your corporate Democrat will not do the trick, I am sure that there is a better guy or gal waiting in the wings in the primary.

That is why I talked about the vote. To do that, we have to have fair elections. To do that we have to get a Democrat in the White House and force Congress to pass meaningful election reform---and face the possibility that the corporate Democrats might not really mind if some of our votes do not get counted.

The sane option---three or four parties---do not apply here since we do not have a parliamentary system.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Primary challenges are critical. Starting with Pelosi right now.
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 07:54 PM by pat_k
From post 18

. . .the solution is for us to keep hammering. To mount serious primary challenges.


The threat of a serious primary challenger alone can move mountains. (If they won't impeach to save the nation, they may to save their political futures.)

We hammer the Members of the 110th Congress. We hammer the leaders of the Party (including the candidates). We keep proding pund-idiots and "opinon makers." AND we line up primary challengers for the most "far gone."

Starting with Pelosi. There is still time for someone like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Gonzalez">Matt Gonzales to get on the ballot. (The http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/election_2008/qualifications/usrepresentative_2008.pdf"> deadline for a U.S. House candidate to submit a petition to get on the ballot for the Democratic Primary in California is February 21).

Gonzales is already well-known in the district from the 2003 San Francisco Mayoral race, so the relatively short campaign would not pose a big problem. Given his strong performance (47.2% to Newsom's 52.8%) in the run-off election) he would pose significant threat to her, particularly given the depth and breadth of dissatisfaction with Pelosi within her district.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Meanwhile, the DLC is raising money to support new "blue dog" candidates --
to run against Democratic liberals and progressives --- !!!


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Look around: the candidates are mainly connected to the elite --
for ordinary -- though exceptional people -- you have to look to third parties ---

The 2000 steal was 8 years ago . . . do you think the Democrats have been simply WAITING to fix our election problems???

We have to face the reality that we are ONLY being given the option to vote for corporate candidates --- !!!

Face it, folks --- !!!


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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
105. But with the current crop of Democratic candidates, you will never get election reform.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Right--!! In fact, post election, Pelosi REPEATS that msg --- anti-war/anti-Iraq . . .
and then what happened --- ????
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
97. Thanks for posting this pat_k!
I'm with you and Senator. Impeachment is our only moral obligation. I'm sick and tired of all the whining and hopelessness on this board and people like MADem saying, "It's not going to happen. Give up." NO! I will NOT give up! I'll keep fighting until it happens! I don't care if I have to keep fighting until his last day in office!
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
114. And thank you for fighting.
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 03:54 AM by Senator
Because the fight itself makes a difference, win or lose. Something the "results-based community" can't begin to grasp.

What the impeachophobes on "our side" have to look forward to is years of being asked "where were you?"

Some of us will have stories to tell, instead of shoes to gaze at.

---
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
103. I want to recommend your post!
:kick:
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks for this. I've heard him speak many times, but caught him again on CSPAN last night
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
26. Nixon passes to Bush . . . that's all ---
As Chomsky points out, nor was Watergate tracked in toto as it should have been ---

Nixon should have been in prison ---

And what we got were some FISA laws which are now being evaded ---

While government secrecy continues to work its poison on our nation.

Nixon could do it because he was a "war president" --- and today Bush can do it because he is a "war president."

But sooner or later, under the threat of political or economic crisis, some comparable figure may succeed in creating a mass political base, bringing together socioeconomic forces with the power and the finesse to carry out plans such as those that were conceived in the Oval Office. Only perhaps he will choose his domestic enemies more judiciously and prepare the ground more thoroughly.

There should have been impeachments -- over Cambodia and Laos -- and TORTURE in Vietnam/Operation Phoenix --- but the Congress didn't move to do it then not wanting to lose a war ---
and they aren't going to do it now because many of them want this war.

Iran-Contra is but another case for impeachment which didn't happen.

The Sibel Edmonds information would certainly create a trial for treason or impeachment ---

Ollie North was working on a plan to destroy the Constitution --- anyone see any signs of that?

"Operation Northwoods" -- a 40 year old document which we only learned about in 1999 --
Gulf of Tonkin -- based on the same M.O. --
How long before we learned of these ploys??

Chomsky is right ...
At one time, FDR came to our rescue for a time --
What will happen this time around --- ???



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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
31. K&R n/t
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
37. Thanks for link to Chomsky article
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. An excellent piece of reporting! Thank you for putting this together.
K & R
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
41. A thought about exective accountability. When we elect "godlike"
presidents--redeemers, messiahs, people who are supposed to "save" us from ourselves--then we are falling into the trap that Chomsky describes above.

"But reverence for the Presidency is far too potent an opiate for the masses to be diminished by a credible threat of impeachment."

The president is just a public servant. A high level elected bureaucrat. Clinton was perceived this way. This was why many people who had felt disenfranchised before trusted him. He was not "the man." Others, a minority who wanted a strong authority figure, despised him for not being the Godlike figure that they thought a president should be. His refusal to play president/god made it possible for the GOP to impeach him. However, it made even more Americans like him. Because, in the wake of Viet Nam and Watergate, most Americans do not want to revere their president. Most Americans want a president whom they trust to get the job done and who will guard their back.

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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
43. Between then and now, in 1988 Chomsky & Edward Herman wrote
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 01:57 AM by mojowork_n
"Manufacturing Consent -- The Political Economy of the Mass Media"



The first four filters describe the mechanical process through which public awareness is shaped and engineered, but the fifth filter, "anti-communism" (or the raw, naked fear of being incinerated in a nuclear holocaust, and/or surviving to live in the dismal, drab, dystopian aftermath) has been completely transformed and re-animated (like Frankenstein's monster), in the intervening years.

George Lakoff (another linguist has talked about Republican "framing", in books like .

More recently, in an abstract on it was reported that "conservatives show more structured and persistent cognitive styles, whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty."

The point being that there are still quite a few people among us (they're our fellow Americans, as Kansas governor Kathleen Sebelius referred to them tonight, without irony, in the Democratic Response to the State of the Union) for whom the way Dad and Grandpa did things still defines who they are. If it was good enough for Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover, by golly, it's more than good enough for today. Those are the people who could *never* begin to accept that The Chimp went AWOL in the Texas Air National Guard, or that John Kerry could have possibly been motivated by any sort of patriotism when he challenged the conduct of the Vietnam War, and the disproportionate numbers of civilian, non-combatant deaths.

I'm not sure how extreme those examples are, but those are the people for whom 'reverence for the presidency' isn't just a concept in civics, but something that was drilled and (emotionally, if not physically?) pounded into them. A matter of life and death, personal survival, and the fore-ordained natural selection of the American species.

Recovering, lapsed, or borderline maverick types might just feel exhausted, worn out, or other physical symptoms of illness, when that 'reverence' is challenged.

Maybe that's why Al Gore's not running this year. It would have been too awkward and difficult, for too many people, to be raising "inconvenient truths", and still be seen as presidential. (Henry Kissinger was a war criminal? The Mexican and Spanish-American wars were a "racket"? The discovery of America was a wonderful thing, but for the folks living on Turtle Island, it would have been more wonderful still had Columbus missed it?)

I don't know how much "pounding" those sorts of folks can handle. In fact, maybe it's too much to ask of the people at the front of the blocking wedge, the point men for the march to impeachment.

"If you see yourself in others, then whom can you harm?" (Some Buddhist dude's paraphrase of the Golden Rule.)



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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Another addition to the list of people who think, Thanks. n/t
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
44. K & R!!!
:kick:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
46. Welcome to my buddy list. K & R. n/t
:kick:




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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
49. the directors of Murder Inc. were also cheating on their income tax.
Thank you for posting this : )
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
60. America is broken and needs to get its priorities straight.
..and the rest of the world is following like the rats followed the Pied Piper
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
61. Chomsky's prescience on many issues has been impressive.
This is no doubt why he is rarely seen or heard on American media. In order to be an official pundit, you must have proved yourself wrong on numerous occasions.

Thanks for finding this, MT
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
62. Gods...
I hope ole' Noam is wrong about this. But I am afraid that he isn't.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
67. The GOP so poisoned the Impeachment process, the Dem leaders don't want to go down that road
Unfortunately, Impeachment is the only constitutional means of removing the President and Vice President, no matter how destructive and criminal their actions have been in office.

Because the very process of removal has been tainted by misuse, it has come to be viewed by most of the Democratic leadership as a "Doomsday Device", a weapon regarded as just as likely to destroy the majority party in Congress that uses it as the corrupt Administration it intends to remove.

That was the legacy and lingering perception the Republicans left behind with the Monica Lewinsky travesty. Because the underlying crime alleged was so trivial, Impeachment failed in the Senate -- along with the equally unpopular attempted shutdown of the federal government, this cost Newt Gingrich his post as Speaker -- leaving Bill Clinton and his party even stronger than it might have otherwise been.

Impeachment, therefore, in the view of professional politicians concerned with holding a majority, is now seen by most as an unacceptable option.

But, the crimes committed this time by the White House are not so trivial. They meet or exceed the High Crimes and Misdeanors standard -- a compelling case for charges of Obstruction of Justice, Perjury, Lying to Congress, massive violatons of federal wiretapping laws, Negligent Homicide, Reckless Endangerment, espionage, and even Treason can be made. But, they won't.

Once again, the mainstream leadership of the Democratic Party -- unable to think outside the box -- have allowed the Republicans to set the ground rules for political action in the United States.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
72. Needs wider dissemination
Many more need to read and understand this.

K & R, of course!
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flasoapbox Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
74. Great post
Chomsky has always had a great way of cutting through the crap
and looking at our system the way it really is. Nixon was no
worse than most Presidents this country had before or since;
but he broke the ruling classes' rules of the game, so it
was decided he couldn't play any more. But whoever the corporations
allow into the White House need to know how to play and who the
real bosses are (hint: NOT the American people).
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
75. This country continues on it's path to tyranny. The only hope we have is that someone will become
president that is willing to fight against the hundreds of billions of dollars that are working to control this country and get their hands on the resources and and the money of the middle class. This president can not do it alone. But don't expect the sheeple to understand the problem when all they listen to is the media puppets of the ruling class. FDR managed to do this but I don't think it is possible today. The ruling class isn't confined to this country but are multinational and a huge force to reckon with. The only other hope we have is that when things get so bad that the sheeple object and may be willing to r e v o l t we haven't been totally enslaved by a corporatist government. The Democratic contenders will make things better but I don't see a big swing back toward a free society. If we don't stop the borrowing from Saudi Arabia and China, they will eventually own our country.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
86. That and more ...
Chomsky is the modern version of Orwell. His observations have been turned into blue-prints for the current political system. But it is the focus on we the people to change this through "the voting booth" where everything gets thrown off the rails. Because we don't have a voting booth we can trust. And if we can't have fair elections nothing is going to change for the better.

There is no doubt that our entire election process is a farce. A huge Dog & Pony Show with no dog, no pony and little to show. We've been regulated down to having a whole campaign consisting of 3 years worth of 30 second commercials and pundits who focus on the trivial as they spoon feed us who's ahead in skewed polling, and where those that speak to our needs and resonate with us the most are ignored, ridiculed and marginalized and finally Diebold finishes off the rest.

Those that become our so-called front-runners typically are the ones with the least in common with those they're supposed to represent. The ones with the most money, not the most commonsense. Those that can recite pretty sounding phrases produced by otherwise carnival barkers that have no real meaning but induce a false inspiration. The word "change" being the one of choice now, when the change we need is for them to hold those accountable for screwing-up the past. And we, as good little lemmings nod our heads in unison as we are lead to forget what got us into this situation and blindly accept those that will do nothing to really change anything. For if any of you think that the powers that be will allow true change to take place, I have a Timeshare I would like to sell you in beautiful downtown Baghdad.

Mark these words - we may not even have an election. Between the collapsing economy, and the very good probability that Bush will attack Iran and our lives could be turned into greater turmoil than we've ever experienced, Marshall Law could be exercised, for national security reasons, and elections postponed indefinitely. And/or another false-flag attack could propel one of the war-mongering rethugs into office and we continue on our path to Hell.

For those who say it can't happen, I've watched two presidential elections stolen, the murder of 3,000 citizens, the murder of Sen. Paul Wellstone, Anthrax sent to those that would dare question authority, the outing of and destruction of a covert operation that was working on stopping proliferation of WMD's, gagging of Sibel Edmonds, destruction of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, illegal wire-tapping, torture, kidnapping, illegal invasion of a two countries, no-bid contracts giving to war-profiteers, destruction of an American city, gutting of our treasury, phony investigations that produce nothing after it's evident crimes were committed, ignoring of subpoenas, destruction of evidence and much more WITH NO ONE BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE!

And not only are they getting away with said crimes these so-called candidates for the people don't even mention any of the above. It's as though we're suppose to forget all that and focus on the future. Well, let me inform you - there will be NO future if we don't rectify the past.
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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
116. Kick
"If Watergate proves that the system works, imagine if we'd had a real criminal in the White House, and not just a used car salesman." Hunter S. Thompson
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