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Do you realize that you are living in a Fascist Country?

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messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:56 PM
Original message
Do you realize that you are living in a Fascist Country?
or do you not see it all around you?.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. this isn't a fascist country
not by a long shot.

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messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Friendly Facism but
fascism none the less.
There are Roman "Fasces" on the wall behind the Speaker's Podium US House of Representatives chamber, United States Capitol.
How clearer can it get than that besides the fact that fascist symbols are also on our money.



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Having grown up in one what WAS... yes, yes it is
just because you don't have troops on the streets and people asking you for papers at every corner... oh wait, TSA is a good ways towards that. Read about the Nazi abuse of women who were also asked to drink their breast milk, for example
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. Nadin,,
On the mark as usual...
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Of course it is
The government reads our e-mails. The White House censors all the major media. More than 70% of the people want the Bush administration removed from power, yet they get everything they want. American citizens can be and are taken off the streets and sent to prison indefinitely without charges or counsel. We spend 200 billion dollars per year occupying Iraq, and yet can't afford to provide health care for almost 50 million of our citizens.

That's fascism, Paul
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. there are clearly forces that would wish a fascist state here
I believe they can and will be thwarted.

We are not there yet - and I believe that crying "fascism" is too much like crying wolf. Don't cheapen the word to the point where no one listens.
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elias7 Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
62. how would you label the fact that:
the media is complicit in failure to report the biggest scandal of the last 50 years, as reported by the UK Times this past month?
the telecom industry has funnelled all internet traffic through a big black vacuum box that drains into the federal govt computers?
And on and on.

How do you define fascism?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. the obvious examples are Italy and Germany circa WW 2
My mother in law grew up in Mussolini's Italy... and we are not there yet. We are a long way from there, and I don't believe we will get there.

I would accept the argument, like I said, that there are fascist forces at work in this country. This is always true, no matter what country - if you define "fascism" as totalitarianism, along with the lack of freedoms and constitutional protections implied.

But it's one thing to call Bush/Cheney; et al, "fascists" - it's quite another, IMO, to call this country a "fascist state".

"Fascism" is a powerful word and I don't feel it should be used lightly.
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elias7 Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. Perhaps in a nuanced discussion you are right, but that is no comfort to me
The 14 Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14-defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -

2. Disdain for
the Recognition of Human Rights -

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats
as a Unifying Cause -

4. Supremacy of the Military -

5. Rampant Sexism -

6. Controlled Mass Media -

7. Obsession with National Security -

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -

9. Corporate Power is Protected -

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -

14. Fraudulent Elections -
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Well put, TOJ - sounds like fascism to me, too. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. Wow, what a compelling argument. nm
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. One would have to be blind not to reconize fascism here in the
USA.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
43. Since we don't have concentration camps, but ain't fascist
oh wait, we do have camps. :shrug:
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. See the signs everywhere.. Just need my subsidized home now in
Nike town and hop on the McDonald's tram to get to my job.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. One has to look past the dogs and ponies, smoke and mirrors,
and such, but yeah. In my humble opinion it happened largely through subversion of the legal system rather than the media like most people think. There are plenty of assholes with law degrees who will sell their souls for a black robe and a fairly big paycheck.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes! I do.
though it's soft fascism for now.l :banghead:
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's so pervasive, it's nearly invisible.
We're so used to goosestepping and mass rallies. Fascism has evolved; our perceptions of it haven't.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yep, the sky is falling
No, wait, it has already fallen. Oh my.

(Your knowledge of history and fascism is seriously deficient.)
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
52. As a fellow student of history
with an emphasis on mid twentieth century history and the rise of fascism I must say the OP has a very good understanding of history and fascism.

But then again ,as a grieferbaiter,you probable knew that anyway.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. LOL! Your appeal to authority doesn't impress me.
Have you noticed that most of the posts on DU, and most of the news stories reported are about who will be our next President?

And you don't see that as inconsistent with the OP's hypothesis?

In fascism, there is no debate about who the next leader will be.

So, either you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand fascism.

Thanks for playing.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. So you look at an election as your proof that fascism isn't here?
Is it any less fascism when you have to choose between pre-determined and vetted candidates that do not represent the people's interests over a majority of issues? Is it any less fascism when the media determines who people vote for more than the issues do? Is it any less fascism that our right to vote is seriously hampered by the machinations of those in power?

I would say that the way we conduct our elections is emblematic of fascism, not proof that fascism doesn't exist here. It is a dog and pony show that only ensures the same people continue to rule this country...don't be fooled by the dogs and the ponies.

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Woo woo to the nth degree. n/t
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. I do understand fascism
precisely because I do pay attention.
If you had any kind of grasp of history you would remember that Hitler and Musolini were also elected to office.
No debate about the next President?Todays version of the fascist do not have to cancel elections.Instead they bought up the media so that they can insure that only the right candidates with the right visions are heard by the public.Then they took control of the actual mechanics of elections to ensure the right candidate wins.(When I say right i mean the idealogy that fits their agenda.)
When it comes to brownshirt goons I don't play.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Perhaps you would point out which fascists voluntarily
stepped down and surrendered his power to another party?

Hitler? No.

Franco? No.

Mussolini? No.

Perhaps you would point out which fascists allowed vigorous debate and criticism of his policies?

Hitler? Franco? Mussolini? No, no, and no!

You should go back to Fascism 101 and re-read some of the basics of fascism.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Ever heard of evolution?
Granted,I'm pretty sure you have but it is obvious that you have no concept of what it means.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. So you can't provide even the simplest proof
You can't show even ONE fascist who fits the situation in America today.

You have adequately demonstrated the lameness of your argument.

And I wasn't even through yet. I still wanted you to name a fascist who allowed an opposing political party to take over the legislative branch.

There is a difference between paranoia and reality. I hope you can grasp that concept better than you grasp the concept of fascism.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. You really don't know what evolution means do you?
:rofl:
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. I know more about evolution than you know about fascism.
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 10:45 AM by cosmik debris
Perhaps you would offer your definition of fascism?

Or perhaps you will continue to say that we are a fascist country because of what we MIGHT (or might not) evolve into.

And perhaps you will learn the difference between present tense verbs and future tense verbs.

The more you post, the lamer you get. You still haven't offered an example to fit any of the conditions of fascism that I asked about. You just dodge the issues because you know you are wrong.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Still don't get it do you?
:rofl: :rofl:

It is fascism that has evolved.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Examples! I'm still waiting for examples. (you've got nothing)
One example of a fascist who allowed the opposition party to take over the legislative branch?

One example of a fascist who voluntarily stepped down from power?

One example of a fascist who allowed vigorous debate and criticism of his policies?

You've got nothing but smilies. You can't even define fascism, that's how little you know.

Maybe you should try google. It is an excellent source for beginners like you.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Like I say

You still don't get it.
Or is it you do not WANT to get it.
The current bunch have realized that they cannot get away with the tactics used by by Hitler and Mussolini so they have changed their modus operandi to fit the current times.
Opposition Party.Ever hear the term DINO before?They have learned that the best way to destroy an idealogy or organization is to subvert it from within.

George HW Bush is a fascist who voluntarily stepped down.

Vigorous debate and critisisms has been allowed because it gives us little people a way to blow off steam.And they are trying to pass legislation to outlaw even that.Ever hear of HR 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act of 2007?

As for my definition of Fascism this guy describes it best and is the definition I go with:
http://edmund-ng.blogspot.com/2007/08/fourteen-defining...

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.



Now lets hear what your definition of fascism is.


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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Sorry, you still have nothing.
Your examples are just excuses and your definition is just a description. (I don't expect you to know the difference) Whats more your description is only vaguely reminiscent of the reality in America.

You are a waste of my time. You aren't even bright enough to entertain, much less challenge.

AMF.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Thats all you got
Insults?
Thank you for providing such an excellant example of intelectual cowardism and grieferbaiting.
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Cognitive dissonance: It's not just for breakfast anymore...
Odd that you'd cite media obsession with the upcoming elections as evidence that we're just rolling in personal freedom. I'd argue that watching the media's evolving role in campaign and election coverage, and transcending neutrality by actually influencing the outcome, provides ample evidence of just the opposite. In maybe 50 years, they've completed the transition from reporters of objective fact to gatekeepers and promoters of official orthodoxy.

But even that wasn't enough to justify the huge sums of money corporate America has spent since 1996 to buy its own alternative universe. So in 2000 and 2004, they assumed a new activist role in determining the eventual "winner" by proclaiming a Bush victory out front; containing, suppressing or ridiculing all contrary information; then forcing the Gore camp to make its case with its credibility already undermined by the "infallibility" the public ascribes to the mighty media Wurlitzer. Goebbels and Bernays couldn't have done it any better.

The role of the "free press" as a check on the excesses of the rich and powerful -- which is what the founders had in mind when they ratified the First Amendment -- no longer exists except in small, local, independent papers, radio stations and community access TV.

Now, in its new role as champion of the status quo, PR firm for the aristocracy and official ministry of propaganda for the unholy marriage of right wing politicians and their corporate love-children, the "free press" is there at the outset of all major election campaigns to weed out any hint of progressive ideology, keep progressives muzzled and off camera and actively promote only the most vanilla, corporate-approved, useless degenerates of the bunch.

As you note, "In fascism, there is no debate about who the next leader will be." In sharp contrast, I suppose, to our free and open system in which all candidates enjoy public funding and equal media access and where mass media respects and accurately reports on every candidate's views on the issues.

One way to pick leaders in a fascist society is to physically, psychologically and spiritually intimidate people into accepting anyone who's shoved down their throats. Another is to limit their options to the finalists who represent the two factions of the Business Party. Just as in the other method, this keeps the status quo safe for another four years, this time by making sure there's only a superficial difference between the choices mass media has shoved down their throats. The outcome is the same; the second method is just slicker, less obviously totalitarian and doesn't tend to make people crazy, unproductive and useless as drones and debt slaves.

And if you actually believe that there's a lick of difference between Ms. Clinton and Mr. McCain or Mr. Romney when it comes to their unwavering commitment to corporate values and steadfast opposition to anything that might benefit actual humans at the expense of corporate profits, then I've got to assume that history and cognition aren't your strong suits. You might care to have a look at opensecrets.org and follow the dollars for a while. Better yet, have a look at Hillary's idea of health care reform.

Like it or not, we no longer live in a democratic republic based on Constitutional law, the will of the people and 220 years of legal precedent. There is no due process; there is no habeas; there is no right to counsel; there is no right to privacy; there is no right to speak your mind; there is no prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment; there is no right to a speedy trial by jury. (See my post #22 for details and links.)

This is the reality of America v2.0. Just because the enforcers aren't wearing black uniforms decorated with swastikas and lightening bolts and goose-stepping down the Unter den Linden; just because Leni Reifenstahl's granddaughter isn't filming the sequel to "Triumph of the Will" and the boxcars are still carrying freight; just because oppression is still partly concealed under a peeling veneer of liberty while most people flatly refuse to pay any fucking attention at all... Just because the jackboot has yet to kick in my door, I'm not naive enough to believe that it can't happen here.

I look at the massive power the executive branch has accumulated since 2001 -- with the complete complicity of congress and an uncritical mass media -- and I can only draw one conclusion: all the pieces are in place to lock down this country like a time vault. They're just not fully operational yet.

Maybe they never will be, although the overlords have gone through a hell of a lot of trouble to build a legal and physical infrastructure that can really serve only one purpose. The Cheneys of the world don't strike me as the type to do stuff like this just for fun.


wp
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. I was wondering when that word was going to be used here
And yes, it must be a "griefer" because I have that person on ignore. I pretty much only do that with dishonest arguers.

Some are just here to get a rise out of you by being contrarian...intelligent discussion is not in their agenda.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. The best defense
is to expose such rats for what they are.Only then can we call for Dominoes to deliver.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. That's what the pro-life people say. We've murdered millions just like Nazi Germany.
Saying this country is fascist minimizes the horrors of true fascist countries.

When everything is blue, nothing is blue.
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messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. A Nazi is a Nazi a Fascist is a Fascist
see the difference?.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. But a Nazi is a fascist.
Are you saying we are fascism lite?

Or are we as bad as Nazis...or worse?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
56. Nazism was a particularly extreme variety of fascism
You can be a fascist without being a Nazi, just like you can have the flu without getting pneumonia.

Until a coupe of decades ago, Spain and Portugal were fascist. Most of Latin America was fascist. Taiwan, South Korea, and Thailand were fascist. Burma still is. In all those countries, life looked/looks very normal on the surface.
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. But you HAVE murdered millions.
Take the victims of the wars of the latter part of the 20th century and add them all up. Millions and millions. They were not your neighbors, but does that make it any better? Or any less illegal or fascist?

We look upon our (Dutch) history and see we were slave traders, presumably the most effective traders in the world. We were a bunch of fascist, rascist and imperialist mf's. We know, that's why the Dutch, of all the people in the world, are the most generous in donations. We know, we remembered, and we care.
In a fascist country (with all the controlled media), you don't know the atrocities committed by your govt, therefor you can't remember, therefor you can't even pretend to care.
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Loge23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. The times they are a changin'
Clearly, we are living through what very closely resembles a fascist system.
As one Bright Eyes aptly noted, the perceptions of fascism have changed. It is no longer as pervasive, or obvious, as the 30's European-style but it is every bit as indictive of the philosphy of fascism - maybe now, even more so.
Corporate control, strong symbolizism, centralized power, and suppression and persecution of opposition - read Molly Ivins "Bill of Wrongs" for real examples.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Link for those needing to catch up: Friendly Fascism...Bertram Goss
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
38. Yes, Friendly Fascism is recommended reading. It's here folks.
It just wears a smiley face.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. No. Know Why? Cause Of This Pesky Little Thing That's Always Buzzin Around, Called Reality.
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 08:31 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
And what you're seeing all around you is not fascism. It's likely pot smoke. Lots and lots of pot smoke.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Let's not be so dogmatic that we deny the "spirit" beyond the OP, ok?
Perhaps a better way to frame it would be:

Compared with 30 years ago, do you think that we have lost some of our civil liberties due to the cozy relationship between the govt. and the ever-unifying interests of massive global corporations -and that FEAR has been used as the primary tool in achieving this end?

How about that lame attempt at re-phrasing? Many can do better I am sure, but still... I think you would not completely deny what the poster is getting at OMC, even if you disagree with the way the OP said it,
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. If he were surrounded by pot smoke
it is likely his door would get kicked in and he would be hauled off to jail.

More people in jail than any other country, proportionally and absolutely.

There's reality for you.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
48. Watch this OMC and Naomi Wolf will tell
what has happened about 8:40 into the interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b131iN3hOyk
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. close enough
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 08:34 PM by Two Americas
A marriage of corporations and government, with ever more restrictions on civil liberties and increasing militarism.

Why do we even argue about this, I wonder?

Of course, there are no zeppelins in the sky with swastikas on them yet.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Why is a building
shaped like a swastika, that is a question for the officials of the Johnson administration.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yes, a Musolini Corporatist fascist State
And we've been living in one for a long time.

The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
--Frank Zappa, 1977
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. That's exactly what we have nt
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. Yes. It is a sliding scale, not black/white.
Compared to what America was 30 years ago, we have slipped much, much closer to fascism.

The examples are too numerous to deny.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, b/c we're not...
read up on the definitions, boyo... :eyes:

If you think this is fascism, you have no idea what the word means, truly...
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. New, improved: It's fascism with a smirk...
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 10:32 PM by warren pease
BushCo and various compliant congresses, with both R and D majorities, have signed off on an ever-expanding list of repressive legislation, executive orders and presidential directives; massive federal invasions of privacy regarding medical and financial records; monitoring US citizens' electronic communications; re-targeting spy satellites for domestic surveillance; the TSA cavity search specialists (for attractive young women only; the rest are presumed to pose no threat to the state); no-fly and terrorist watch lists; Halliburton/KBR's detention camps; RFIDs in all new passports and the new national ID cards scheduled to be issued later this year; new TSA "behavior detection officers" to spot those who don't "look quite right;" all this wonderful new stuff from the DHS; private armies featuring mercenaries from companies like Blackwater and SAIC springing up like mushrooms after a light rain... All that and the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, extraordinary rendition (whatever the hell that means) and torture, too. (Note: the torture link is graphic and disgusting.)

But most people would call you insane if you tried to connect these dots in a way that pointed toward governmental malevolence. Can't happen here, they say.


wp
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Anyone who's been homeless knows
what it feels like to be rounded up by the stormtroopers. We've been headed down this path for decades now.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. yep
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. My friend said the same thing about his quantitative methods
after we gave a conference paper together.

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. But where's the snazzy uniforms? The kick-ass knee high boots?
The jodpurs? The sharp haircuts? The Nurenberg Rallies? If this is Fascism, it's fascism with an aesthetic deficit: a scruffy fascism indeed!
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Check the military....
Our nations biggest employer.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Yes. But then again, I'm posting though a time-warp from Italy in 1936.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. This is fascist country
In Mussolini's definition, the marriage of corporate and state power to further the interests of the substantial people.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
35. Yes.....
.....how many people will need to learn by experience what that truly means?

Ah, we're :tinfoilhat:, right? :sarcasm:
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
37. To paraphrase Naomi Klein on a recent interview...
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 12:28 AM by D23MIURG23
It isn't so fascist that we can't still fight and attempt to improve the situation. That is the most important part.

Squabbles over the definition of fascism are meaningless, and aren't going to accomplish anything.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. Excellent point...

it's also important to keep in mind the political spectrum from left to right. No matter what kind of crazy propaganda the right-wing wackos are trying to push, always keep in mind that fascism is to the extreme right what communism is to the extreme left. Historically, fascist or (at least) extreme right-wing programs have always battled communism, hence they are often identified as 'anti-communist'. This is why our nation became so heavily involved in it, particularly in our intelligence activities, when we took up where Hitler left off in the fight against Soviet communism. Being anti-fascist does not make one a communist by any means, since there is the normally more narrow political range from left to right that our nation must eventually return to.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
39. YES I see it all around me.
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
41. Seems like this is most appropriate to this thread...
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
42. Why, no no, I don't
I realize I live in a country in which elements of fascism are sometimes executed, but to extend that to the belief that this is a fascist nation is, I think, to fit oneself for a suit made of pie plates.

Frankly, I long ago had quite enough of "scare" posts such as this. Criticize America all you want but, goddammit, be truthful and realistic about it.



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RuleOfNah Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. Unevenly distributed.
I see lumps of fascism from time to time. Now more or less? I don't know, lumps have been there my entire life. There are people, places and things I have learned to avoid and their number seems to be increasing. Perhaps that is due to the bozo rodeo forcing me to pay closer attention to those that don't.

In the context of the Frank Zappa quote; more people seemed to be worried about being there when the brick wall hits. Kind of like Global Climate Change.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
49. A coup has occurred.
Listen to Naomi about 8:40 into the interview with Amy Goodman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b131iN3hOyk
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
50. Never underestimate the power of denial
The thing is here, people's deductive reasoning skills are impacted and shaped through the prevailing cultural ideologies, and naturally being truthful regarding the social systems we create and abide, directly and indirectly, isn't - and has never been - popular.

A byproduct of the corporate mentality is to reduce complex variables to easy to digest platitudes. Hence, if we live in a "democracy," irrespective of how frightfully weak our model is in both theory and practice, then there of course cannot be fascist elements involved ... because authority says so.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
51. I read Naomi Wolf's book, "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot"
and highly recommend it. Be prepared to be depressed when confronting the reality of what has happened in this country. People don't want to deal with the truth, which is why there is so much denial. It's just too damned uncomfortable. What are you going to DO about it?
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
53. If it was truly fascist would you be able to make your OP?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Old-style, no
New-style, they can afford to let the OP go.

Bushco claims they can detain you incognito for an indefinite period whenever they want. Just because they haven't done it thus far doesn't mean they can't and won't if they find it necessary. All they have to do is make the accusation "terrorist." They don't need any grounds for it.

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. Exactly. The totalitarian infrastructure isn't in place sans intentions of using it more overtly
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. If a frog had wings he wouldn't go bumpity bump on his ass
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
55. Yes.
Do you realize that current Dem leadership is enabling that fascism?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
74. How can you call it fascist when we have so many cereals from which to choose?!
:D



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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
76. We have the highest incarceration rate in the civilized world
We start illegal wars, we torture, we have "terrorist watch lists" with thousands of people on them.

We can say what the hell we want only because we are so powerless to stop any of this.

But we have access to endless amounts of entertainment, shiny gadgets, and shitty food to waste money on, so, you know, it's all good.
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
77. The signs are definitely all around us.
After reading Naomi Wolf's book, The End of America, I'm acutely aware of them.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
78. I've Realized It For A Very Long Time
I realized it some time ago that I live in a Fascist Country.

I saw the reaction right after 9/11, and I knew that fascism was not far behind.

And over hte past 7 years, I have seen a relentless push towards even greater fascism.

I only hope the next election can begin to undo the fascism that is currently so very strong.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fierce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
84. No. Because I'm not.
And it's insulting to insinuate otherwise.
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