"Are you reeling in shock the news that a family member or friend is homosexual?"

[Bluebear]

"We understand what you're going through. Around the world men, women and youth are affected by homosexuality and other forms of sexual brokenness. Whether you or someone you know is struggling with homosexuality, bisexuality, sexual addiction, addiction to pornography or any issue involving human sexuality know that you are not alone. There is hope and healing for you through Jesus Christ. The Metanoia Ministries family welcomes you."

http://www.metanoiaonline.org/

===============
George Bush's spiritual advisor, pastor Kirbyjon Caldwell, endorsed Barack Obama today and will campaign on his behalf. Caldwell heads a ministry called METANOIA that is essentially a de-gayifying programs for youth. The hurt and damage these programs do to our children is SICK SICK SICK.

Obama claims that he wants to build a majority coalition that includes Republicans. It is the epitome of hubris and spin. Deep idealogical difference are not going to be resolved with Kumbaya.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is progressive cannibalism. If the essence of Senator Obama's much ballyhooed 'change' means laying down with the enemy, it is certainly not the type of change that I want to embrace.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/20/214044/713/68/440295

In fact, Caldwell has already been on the campaign trail for Obama. His name was overlooked at the time, but a little digging reveals that Caldwell was also part of Obama's S.C. gospel tour featuring "ex-gay" bigot Donnie McClurkin:


At the event, McClurkin said more about himself than the man who the concert was supposed to help, Obama. But the singer said the candidate "is standing for change" and "a man not afraid to bring different opinions to the stage."

In fact, for all the criticism on the left for President Bush mixing faith with politics, some of the speakers essentially described voting for Obama as akin to a religious cause.

"He's more than a conqueror through Jesus Christ," said Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Houston pastor who was on the tour and is backing on Obama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4133344

[babylonsister]

1. This is nasty, especially coming from you. Your anger knows no

bounds. Good. Enjoy Hillary. You reap what you sow.

[Bluebear]

2. There you go again, excusing your candidate's latest "ex-gay" spokesman away. How sad.

[babylonsister]

4. Baloney, Bluebear. This guy comes out of left field,

he supports Obama. Great. But to insinuate that Obama has somehow solicited his support is bullshit.
Your hate knows no bounds and I can't even figure how to get around that. We've been through this with each other, but I thought reason might prevail. Guess not.

Maybe we should just call it a draw until November if you want to play this game. You know how I feel. I love you, Obama was disrespectful and did a bad thing, but I'm not gay, nor bitter against Obama.

[LostinVA]

7. Ex-Gay ministers/therapists are murderers

If reason prevailed, you would understand that.

[Maven]

9. Comes out of left field?

No no no.

The Obama campaign has been involved with him since July '07.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/07/30/obama_aide_holds_faith_forum.php

He was on the SC tour and is now in talks to campaign more formally for Obama. This is not a mistake, and it's not unilateral either.

[JanMichael]

76. My puerile sense of humor must be destroyed...

People must STOP saying what he's doing in left field!

[MADem]

13. Out of left field? No. His support was, apparently, solicited. A WHILE ago.

Caldwell has already been on the campaign trail for Obama. His name was overlooked at the time, but a little digging reveals that Caldwell was also part of Obama's S.C. gospel tour featuring "ex-gay" bigot Donnie McClurkin....

[mondo joe]

25. Of course Obama has solicited this sort of support. What did you think McClurkin was?

[Bluebear]

33. "Your hate knows no bounds": How can you love me and say that?

Why is it my hate? Why can't you see the many others here who feel the same way, do we all "hate" to you? Really?

[babylonsister]

43. Yes, I'm wrong. Hate at will and see where that gets you.

You are disparaging a candidate who deserves to be heard. We don't have enough good ones.

[Bonobo]

48. Babylonsister is right about this though. PLEASE READ?

Obama is involved in some weird and heavy Black politics that white (and other folk) don't really have THAT much insight into.

I know this is the biggest issue for you and many, but I suspect other issues are important to you as well.

It seems to me, that in trying to gain the votes of a highly important sub-segment of the black population, Obama is "speaking their language" of anti-gay attitudes in a subtextual way (the whole Gospel thing). I do not deny he is doing it. It sucks. But it is not unlike, as another poster far more intelligent than me said, what Howard Dean did in speaking the coded language of the white south when he said we need to get back the confereate flag pick-up truck vote or whatever he said. Naturally it enraged many here as well because it sounded like he was capitulating to the enemy.

This is Obama's thing, though. He is not a homophobe, he is a builder of bridges. He IS a bridge. Seriously. He bridged a couple of really weird unconnected cultures! Hawaii, Indonesia! Black! Muslim! Christian! Rich! Poor! Etc. The guy has worn a lot of hats.

I think, like the bridge he is, he realizes he has to plant some pillars, for stability, into the whole riverbed. The yucky parts with slime on the bottom too! A bridge is a bridge. It can't be a one-sided bridge.

But you got to look at the man's heart if you can. Look INTO it, if you can. I really don't think he is a homphobe. I really don't.

I think he is involved in stitching together lots of disparate elements of our weird, big tent. The very thing you KNOW we have not been able to do until now. But it's happening! He is it! He could be it! Let him be it! Please.

Let him try to be it.



"Look into your heart! I'm pleading with you, look into your heart! I'm pleading with you! Look into your heart!"
(My favorite movie, "Miller's Crossing". Sorry about that.)

[Bluebear]

53. Replied on your other thread, bonobo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4137867&mesg_id=4138097

[Chovexani]

59. Bull fucking shit.

Obama is involved in some weird and heavy Black politics that white (and other folk) don't really have THAT much insight into.

Don't you DARE come out here and presume to lecture anyone here about "weird and heavy Black politics". I am Black, I left the church BECAUSE MURDEROUS BASTARDS LIKE THE ONES OBAMA SUCKS UP TO WERE KILLING ME AND MINE.

With McClurkin he threw black GLBT people under the bus. With this disgusting waste of cellular material he has backed over us and poured gasoline on our mass grave.

If you think this is hyperbole, you don't have "that much insight" into what it is like to be black, queer, and in the church.

[yardwork]

81. Even though I'm not black, I have more insight than you might think.

For decades I have worked with black leaders in black communities to bring change. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Here's where I disagree with you. Obama doesn't need to bring black homophobes into his camp to win. There are plenty of black non-homophobes. What about all the black gay people? How do you think they feel?

Hillary Clinton has had enormous support in the black community without bringing the extremist homophobes into her camp. Yes, it's "don't ask don't tell." But that's far better than what Obama is doing. He's not clearing up misconceptions. He's elevating them, justifying them, giving them a national platform. That's not healing - that's making the problem worse!

[pnwmom]

88. Why is the homophobe segment of the black population more important

than the gay segment and growing number of supportive families and friends?

People like McClurkin and Caldwell are loud and influential but the solution isn't to put them even more forward, but to spotlight the voices of black people with other points of view.

[nonconformist]

121. Well now I've fucking heard it all.

:crazy:

[Bluebear]

49. You're right, please refrain from posting to me until November, thanks.

I've been insulted enough.

[boston bean]

100. She has been to a revival meeting and has seen the true light of Obama

and all his goodness, that will never change.

It's like talking to people who belong to a cult. I want no part of it.

Sad, but true.

[Skittles]

110. I agree

for the life of me I cannot understand it

[yardwork]

82. It's the same kind of love expressed by the Inquisition.

As they put the torches to the heretics being burned at the stake they said, "And may God receive your soul."

Not that they really cared.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

103. yeah thats the thing you arent gay, so really what position are you to tell us that

we are all over reacting?

[The Straight Story]

124. Hillary has an ex-gay rabbi in her past as well

:)

[LostinVA]

5. He's a well-known Edwards supporter and it's a direct quote from an Ex-Gay website

My WIFE was subjected to this Ex-Gay shit, and she might not have been here today, if it wasn't for a supportive teacher. So, think before you call him nasty. This doesn't have anything to do with any political candidate. This has to do with people's lives. The Ex-Gay movement KILLS people.

[smokey nj]

24. Edwards?

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. ...

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

72. BLUEBEAR -- he's not a Clinton supporter

[smokey nj]

84. Sorry.

I thought you were referring to the gay-hating preacher and I got a little confused.

[LostinVA]

95. Oh! Sorry!

I see how you could have read it that way!

[smokey nj]

96. No problem!

Thanks for the clarification!

[maddiejoan]

6. And your Obamapologist attitude

sickens me.

Until Obama makes a CLEAR and STRONG rebuke of the "ex-gay" movement, he will not be able to count on my vote if he's the nominee.

Yes -- I realize that the lonely little vote of a NY State trannie like me won't matter to Obama at all --but there is no way I will vote for him unless he does.

I'm sure he doesn't care though --so it's all good.

[More Than A Feeling]

11. I made this thread especially for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4136098&mesg_id=4136098

If I thought this was more than a drive-by, I would point out that the question isn't, why is Bluebear (and Heaven and Earth, and Solon, and Kucinich4America, and so on) angry, it's "Why aren't you?" The ex-gay movement is about the worst movement you can associate yourself with and still be politically viable. People have committed suicide because of the ex-gay movement, and their blood is on the hands of McClurkin and Caldwell, and everyone pushing this hatred of gays.

A journalist needs to ask Obama what he thinks of ex-gay ministries, since he seems so anxious to be supported by them and hang out with them.

[MuseRider]

15. Absolutely people have died

from these attitudes and their forcing of shame on GLBT citizens. I know from very painful and close experience and I can not in good conscience ever cast a vote for someone who does not stop this. I don't care if he was not asked to campaign for Obama, if Obama had any guts or cared at all he would tell the guy to cut it out. Once again we see the attitude of winning above all else. This is the saddest thing. I can't imagine a Democrat (or any human for that matter) not screaming about this but to let them campaign for them? His statements of non support for these movements mean very little when he does not stop this or denounce it loudly. Absolutely beyond anything I can imagine.

[pnwmom]

14. babylonsister, I'd like to understand this better. Why do you say this is nasty?

Is it untrue that this Caldwell guy will be campaigning for Obama?

[chascarrillo]

61. Is it true that he wlill be?

[pnwmom]

87. I'd still like to know what babylon sister meant, exactly. n/t

[pnwmom]

90. He says he will be "making visits" on Obama's behalf.

Whatever that means.

I'd still like to know what babylonsister meant, exactly.

http://www.queerty.com/bushs-anti-gay-spiritual-adviser-endorses-obama-20080121/

“I have been in contact with the Obama campaign team,” he said. “I will be making visits on his behalf.”

Those visits most probably won’t include any gay community centers - unless it’s to spread some reparative therapy. Rumor has it that Caldwell endorses anti-gay “cures” through his congregation. The website explaining his ex-gay ways, however, has mysteriously disappeared.

[Solon]

50. Its only "that gay thing" to you...

:puke:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3966281#3966425

[terrya]

69. Do you understand how white hot angry we GLBT people are towards these disgusting people?

And any politician who courts their support?

It has nothing to do with what candidate a person may support.

If you can sometime, read gay and lesbian history sometime. Read about how gay and lesbian people were considered "mentally ill" until relatively recently. Read about shock treatments, aversion therapy, etc, to try to "cure" us. And here we are, in the 21st century...and we're confronted, yet again, with people who have judged us "sick" and to be "cured". And a Presidential candidate, who SAYS he's committed to GLBT people and the GLBT community, and yet...seems to have no problems assoicating himself with these people.

I go through a range of emotions, reading about the indifference, the sheer hostility, some DU'ers have about us, our concerns and our outrages. I just can't quite believe seeing that on a place like Democratic Underground.

[Skittles]

109. I agree, terrya

the amount indifference to homophobia and misogyny on DU is very depressing

[yardwork]

80. I'm really disappointed. I thought that DU was above dismissing human rights abuses.

I'm not a Hillary supporter, but I get closer every day because of the behavior of Obama's supporters. I don't see that kind of behavior in the supporters of other candidates - including Hillary Clinton.

I think that during a primary season, we learn about a candidate mostly based on that candidate's supporters. It's the candidate's opportunity to show the kind of leadership they would demonstrate as president, their style, if you will.

I don't like Obama's style.

[donheld]

91. How can you call it nasty if he's just giving the facts?

:shrug:

[readmoreoften]

112. Wow, amazing that I don't have you on ignore yet.

Yeah, there's a reason for the anger--rocket scientist.

[Bonobo]

3. I have a question.

Is there some synergetic relationship that I don't understand between gospel, the black community and homosexuality?

Is there some kind of entrenched homphobia in the Black community that is so deep that Obama is finding it difficult to gain support from Black churches WITHOUT sticking his foot in the big pile of shit he seems to keep doing? What am I missing with him?

It is not that I support Obama so much that I don't believe that he could be homophobic, it just doesn't SEEM to be true given that he is such a deep thinker. My intuition says no.

So I guess I am trying to ask those here on the other side if they think that he maybe is just in a really tight position in trying to get support from the religious establishment (where there is more entrenched homophobia than he can deal with politically?)

Do our Black DU'ers here sense more outright homophobia in their churches? As for me, I'm Jewish so I've never been to any church, but I tell you one thing: I have never been in a synagogue that promoted anti-gay ideas.

If you, for whatever reason, consider my asking this question to be racist or homophobic, I apologize if that is an impression you were erroneously left with.

I am just trying to understand why Obama would be doing this/allowing this. It all SEEMS wrong.

[Hekate]

10. Good questions. (hands Bonobo flameproof suit) nt

[Bonobo]

12. Umm, I hope I don't need this thing...

I knew I was taking my chances. I'm just trying to understand the world around me a bit better at this particular moment.

[pnwmom]

16. This is just one example, but my father's partner

is much more comfortable in my father's Catholic church (of all places) than in the typical African-American Baptist church he grew up in. Their family is "out" in their parish and very active there.

[Jamastiene]

20. The is just as much homophobia in the black community as

there is anywhere else.

[Bonobo]

21. I guess I"m asking is there MORE in black churches?

Or at least the Black Church establishment?

Is it easier to be a homophobe there?

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. I suspect that we, as Democrats, see it in black churches more

because more blacks are Democrats. That's why we see them campaigning for Democrats. The majority (but by no means all) of white homophobes are going to white, fundie, Republican churches. We expect it of them.

But I'd bet the overall percentages are about the same, just as the percentages of gays are the same in both communities.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. More, I believe.

My understanding is that a randomly-chosen American black is, on average, likely to be more homophobic than a randomly-chosen American white.

That said, I can't remember where I read that, so it may not be reliable. I don't think it's something I've heard just once, though.

[Barb in Atl]

27. I'll give it a shot...

Never been a real church goer - but my family church is Episcopalian. I think that there's a part of the church that wants to break off because not only do they make women priests (and even bishops?), they accept even lesbians (gasp!). Anyway, I'm a Buddhist now cuz Christianity never did it for me. Okay, so that's my pedigree.

First, most churches are anti-gay. The only church that I know of that's fully accepting of GLBT top to bottom is Universalist. Pick any other denomination (Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal... wait, not so sure about Methodists or Lutherans, but I'm in Georgia and I seriously doubt they are welcoming) and you have folks screaming about the pits of hell. So that's the church portion of it.

As far as black folks, there's the whole trying to prove we were HUMAN for a couple hundred years and that leads to a group of folks that are trying very hard to mimic the mainstream. And if you go off that path, you're tagged as strange and dangerous. Worse, you're acting white, cuz with all the crap black folks have to do just to survive, are you telling me you choose to go and be gay, too?

It's a hard knock life, baby, and if you ain't doing the middle way shuffle, you got problems. My eldest brother is gay, married in Mass and my mom wouldn't go to the wedding. He's the rock in my family. Something needs handling? He's the man. But my mom, who raised us all right so that we love and respect her even though she's nutty about gays, just can't get past it. Funny - of her eight children, my gay brother is the only one to marry. TWICE. (My first b-i-l passed from cancer)

Anyway, that's my puny attempt to try to explain the homophobia I see, at least, in my particular black family.

(Edited for D'oh!!)

[Bonobo]

28. Thanks for that. It's not the kind of perspective I would ever hear, as you know.

All families are weird. My family is a fucking doozy, believe me! Ha ha! Anyway, I know no group is monolithic and the whole thing is complicated as hell, so I appreciate you giving me one person's perspective.

I don't know where you grew up, but it's probably different in the south/north, I imagine.

Anway, thanks for the post and not giving me any shit. It was hard for me to ask.

[Barb in Atl]

37. Not a problem

Honest inquiries aren't a problem.

And I live in GA now, I'm originally from CT - hence the Episcopalian.

[Hekate]

51. ...and welcome to DU, BleedinHeart

:hi:

Hekate

[Barb in Atl]

106. Thanks! (n/t)

[TalkingDog]

64. The HyperSexualized Black Man

He will rape all your virgin white daughters (and now your sons too)

I think BleedinHeart has walked around the edges of it and made some very good points.

There is a lot of subtext attached to Black sexuality that Whites never have to worry about.

For instance:

Blacks are hypersexualized.

You see this in TV, movies, music vids. If you pay attention the next time you are watching a crime drama, take note when you see cops bust in on some scummy lowlife vs investigating some "higher class" crimes. If they are Black (and poor) keep a mental tally of how often they are engaged in sex or are prostitutes.

I've never seen TV cops bust in on too many rich white folks en flagrante.

Music videos are a double edged sword. They show this type of sexuality which both reinforces the idea, but to a certain extent claims it, like they reclaim the word "nigger" as something they can own and control.

This idea of the hypersexualized black man springs directly from slavery propoganda. It was one reason Whites were supposed to fear freeing them.

The hypersexual propaganda was intended to suggest that Blacks are less than human, beastlike. It has a very degrading ideas and history attached to it.

Fracturing the Family Unit.

There is also an idea discussed among Black scholars that, given that there was an intentional fracturing of the family unit to keep Blacks destabilized, homosexuality is yet another threat to that stability. Even to this day with welfare regulations, people applying for welfare cannot have a spouse living with them.

In the 70's through the 90's there was discussion about Black women's dissatisfaction that one of the "status prizes" for upwardly mobile Black men was a White trophy wife.

So the threats to the Black family unit feed into this discussion re: Black homosexuality.

It's a complicated issue that will resolve given time and with the increasing status of Blacks in America through their upward mobility and acceptance into positions of authority.

Unfortunately a lot of children are being harmed while this is sorting itself out.


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[Barb in Atl]

105. Nicely done...

Thank you! I was thinking along those lines (kinda sorta) but not nearly as clearly.

[LostinVA]

75. Wrong -- most mainstream Christian churches AREN'T ant-gay

Even the Catholic Church isn't technically "anti gay." (The Church does not believe that BEING gay is a sin, just gay "behavior." That is not welcoming, but at least homosexuality isn't dxemonized on a doctrinal level like the Baptists, etc.)

Most of the people at my wedding were mass-going Catholics. The head of the local K of C AND a Catholic priest were among the invitees. Not exactly a religiously liberal bunch. They celebrated our union. So, people who use religion as an excuse to disapprove of being gay are full of it. They are ONLY using it to hate or be intolerant of someone else.

And: the most Catholic states are also the states with the best gay rights (MA, NJ, etc.).

[Barb in Atl]

108. I certainly can't say for sure...

I was raised in CT, lived in MA for 12 years after that and then came to Georgia. In those first 30 years, religion was a personal thing. Your relationship (or non-relationship) with God was your own business.

It was only after moving here to GA that I got BLASTED with religion. I would go to work on Mondays and listen to co-workers discussing their services the previous day. I learned that folks really did spend ALL DAY Sunday at church. It was stunning. Along with that came the fear/judgement when I'd mention my gay brother.

I completely agree that folks use religion to bolster their homophobic behavior - but that's always the case, isn't it? Religion was used to justify slavery, don't forget. In my experience, here in GA, there are a number of churches and church goers that pull some passage from the bible and twist it - and I interact with all kinds of people.

Oh, and I'll never get the "love the sinner and not the sin" crap. That to me is far more hypocritical and insulting than just coming out and being a homophobe. It's still judgemental and dehumanizing. Further it's constraining. What's the difference between a homosexual and a hetero? Other than making love to someone of the same gender? Not a thing that I know. So just subvert your sexuality for me, thanks! Ah, I feel so much better! I won't ask about your sexual exploits, trust that I won't tell you mine. That's a Don't Ask, Don't Tell I can fully get behind.

[Tatiana]

30. So here's my shot.....

It is not that I support Obama so much that I don't believe that he could be homophobic, it just doesn't SEEM to be true given that he is such a deep thinker. My intuition says no.

I think your intuition is right; Obama is not homophobic.

So I guess I am trying to ask those here on the other side if they think that he maybe is just in a really tight position in trying to get support from the religious establishment (where there is more entrenched homophobia than he can deal with politically?)

Do our Black DU'ers here sense more outright homophobia in their churches? As for me, I'm Jewish so I've never been to any church, but I tell you one thing: I have never been in a synagogue that promoted anti-gay ideas.

YES... he is in a very tight position. He NEEDS support from southern African-Americans. The way I see it, there are three camps so far. There's the established black leaders who have pledged their support to Hillary (some, I think never saw the Obama camp's ground game manifest and are now regretting early endorsements of Clinton). So you have a group of black folk who are going to follow their leaders and vote for Hillary. Then there are younger, college-educated African-Americans who are excited by Obama's candidacy and are volunteering for him in places like Georgia and Texas and Florida. Then you have that third group that I'll just called the "Old Undecideds." These black people have been voting for decades now; maybe even were on the front line fighting for their right to vote. Most of them attend church on Sunday and consider themselves God-fearing Christian men and women. This group of people is having a hard time deciding whether to vote for Obama or Clinton. It would be nice to have a black president, but just because someone is black doesn't mean he's going to automatically get their vote. They STILL remember Clarence Thomas and will never get over "Uncle Tom." So they are studying Obama carefully and asking themselves whether or not he can win. Hillary worked for Marian Wright Edelman. She's got cred. Plus Bill knows the hymns and spirituals and is as comfortable in a southern baptist or AME church as on an international panel of experts on the global economy.

Bottom line is that Obama needs to win over that third set of voters, and to do so, he's got to convince them that he's not going to be a turncoat like Thomas and that he understands their lives and values. My grandmother is in this undecided set (I swear, one week she is for Hillary, the next she's convinced Obama is the next black Moses). The African-American community (especially the southern, traditionally more conservative one) does not deal well with the issue of homosexuality AT ALL. One of my aunts fancied herself a lesbian for a couple of years. No one in my family would speak to her except my father, and even he had a tone of disgust in his voice when he spoke with her. My grandmother would go on about "casting that demon out of her." Now, I didn't care one whit about my aunt's girlfriend, nor did most of the other cousins in my age group. But the older folk took it PERSONAL and so did her children (they were very ashamed and refused to speak to her as well).

This was the same aunt we had known all our lives, but everyone was ashamed, furious, disappointed because she had a partner of the same sex. She eventually broke up with the girlfriend and has a boyfriend now, claiming she just was experimenting. (I'm not so sure.) Everything is forgiven, of course and everyone is speaking with her again now that she's no longer the L-word. Ask any black gay or lesbian from down south about their coming out and I'm sure you'll find out it wasn't pretty at all. I don't know why we have such a visceral reaction to the issue of homosexuality, but it's there and it's something I do NOT see in other ethnic groups.

It's sort of like when Howard Dean talked about reaching out to southern confederate-flag-flying voters and everyone had a heart attack. It was political strategy. He knew if he was going to win down there, he'd need some of those votes and why not dialogue and engage with them rather than berate them? Maybe they would find they had some things in common.

[Bonobo]

31. That was great, thanks. So here is my big, big question:

It doesn't sound like Obama is a homophobe or against gay rights and much of this COULD be understood as having to do with navigating the different types of black voters. So in some sense, the anger from the White, gay community -although entirely justified from their correct perspective -are working also from a certain lack of appreciation of the black social context in which this is all playing out. Wouldn't you say so?

It is complex because it crosses both lines. Race and gay rights and those issue play a little differently among white and black sub-communities. Also complexity is not something that is being dealt with very well on DU and in the political/media realm at this point in time.

Again, thanks for exploring the issue and sharing your perspective.

[Tatiana]

34. Oh I definitely agree - you've hit the nail on the head. White gays are not seeing the (black)

social context in which this is all playing out.

You know, as a person of color, when Dean talked about reaching out to those southerners who proudly waved their confederate flags, I was so furious. That flag is a symbol of intimidation, of fear, of hatred, of lynching... there are so many negative connotations associated with that flag. Why would Dean want to network with a bunch of racists? Was Dean a closet racist?

It was only years later that I saw the validity of what Dean was trying to do. He wasn't a racist anymore than Obama is a homophobe. Dean was seeking to dialogue with people who main interests lie with the Democratic party and under our large tent. And if he could only woo them over to hanging out on our side, they might just repudiate some of those beliefs on their own, without us having to say one word. I think Obama is thinking along the same lines. But like the confederate flag really set me off as a person of color, I can understand how these ex-gay ministers set off gay people.

All I have to say is some of the gay people on this site better thank their lucky stars they weren't born into a black family. There really is a lack of understanding about black culture and homosexuality.

[Bonobo]

36. Thanks and BTW, I was a big Clark fan.

I always trusted him because I just knew that his CONVERSION from Reagan supporter to true, true Democrat was real.

How did I know? Why was I so sure?

I think it's that it was easy for me to envision a man who had devoted his entirety, his whole soul to the nation, to service, to the military -and so for him, voting for a commander in chief type would be so in character.

But then, then! Then something happened to this passionate, valorous man. Something I don't fully understand, but I understand that it MUST have been PROFOUND. To make him go in that direction. A man of that intellect!? What could it have been?

It can only have been comprehension. Understanding. He finally GOT IT. And THAT is so much meaningful than a person who is a Democrat becasue they have ALWAYS been a Democrat or their PARENTS were Democrats. You know what I mean? That's how I knew Clark was the real deal. And I knew he could have gotten us out of 4 years of shit if we could have elected him in 2004. Fuck, that sucked.

Cheers. You sound like one of the smartest people around here, Tatiana. Pleased to meet you.

Who are you supporting now? I'm so impressed that it isn't "written all over you".

[Tatiana]

94. Very pleased to meet your acquaintance as well :)

Every once in a while, I get sad about Clark (I really liked the Dean-Clark, Clark-Dean team). We would not be in a full-blown recession right now (because we wouldn't have spent $$$ invading Iraq), the dollar would not be in free-fall, and we'd not be so burdened with foreign debt. No doubt, this country would have been in a better position under his leadership (or Dean's or Kerry's... hell, could ANYONE be worse than Bush?). I still think great things lie ahead for him. He is a natural leader and pretty progressive on the issues. If Clinton is the nominee, she'd do well to pick him as her running mate.

Believe it or not, I still haven't decided who I will vote for on Super Tuesday! With Clark's endorsement of Hillary, I'm definitely thinking twice about her. And Russ Feingold seems to be torn between Clinton and Obama as well. I like Edwards, but it's between Clinton and Obama for me and I still haven't made up my mind. The IWR thing keeps me from swinging all the way to Clinton's side and it's gaffes like the one discussed in this original post that prevent me from moving into the Obama column.

Actually, this campaign season is a bit of an enjoyment for me, now that I'm not so invested.

[rockymountaindem]

44. Your comparison between Dean and Obama in this sense makes a lot of sense to me

I wasn't happy about Dean's use of the Confederate flag as a metaphor, but I understood what he was saying. I guess Obama could be in the same position, even though I don't think it's good for him (or anybody else) to be associating with the "ex-gay" movement.

Although I don't claim to know anything about the dynamic between homosexuality and the African American community, I think you just made one of the better posts I've seen around here in a long time.

[Hekate]

52. Tatiana and Bonobo: thank you from the bottom of my heart for one of the best exchanges ever...

...or at least the best in a long, long time.

Just -- thank you.

Hekate

[Chovexani]

60. This is much, much more serious than the flag issue.

A flag never killed a damn thing, as hateful a symbol as it is. The "ex-gay" brainwashing movement has and continues to. Daily. There is no "reaching out" to be had there. Period. Please read some statistics on the GLBT youth suicide rate. And that is not even counting those that died after being put out in the street rather than submit to the brainwashing and died from drug overdoses and god knows what else.

You don't have to tell me about black culture and homosexuality. There are a number of us here who know all too well. This is why we can't abide Obama throwing us by the wayside in order to win. It is one more betrayal, one more stab in the back.

[LostinVA]

77. My wife was a victim of the "Ex Gay" when she was a teenager

I know from here what hell they put gay kids through. If not for the support of a great teacher and the mother of a friend, she would probably have killed herself because of the Ex Gay "therapy" she was put through.

These people SUCK, and it maddens me to have people using religion and cultural issues to excuse it.

[Tatiana]

92. I understand.

For the record, I don't think I said I agreed with the strategy. Another poster asked why Obama, who didn't seem to be a homophobe, would take such a tact. What followed was my attempt to explain.

I understand your anger and frustration. Obama needs to be a doing a better job in terms of his outreach to the GLBT community, no question. At the same time he needs those African-American voters in the South as well. Maybe there is no "reaching out" to be had, but how does one know if one does not try?

[Geek_Girl]

65. My guess is this is his South Carolina strategy

many southerners regardless of political affiliation are homophobic and he's just pandering to them. The more the primaries go on the more I realize I really don't like Obama.

[yardwork]

83. Hillary Clinton has had enormous support among blacks without this pandering.

No, I'm not a Hillary supporter (getting closer, though). I'm pointing out that she and her husband (the hated Bill - who knew he was such a terrible, horrible guy until this past week?) have had a lot of support in black communities without dragging torturers into their camp.

[pnwmom]

89. Yeah, but supposedly Obama can't "build bridges" without it.

If anyone wants evidence that HRC is more progressive than Obama, this is it.

[yardwork]

101. Obama is building bridges with some of the worst people in the country.

[pnwmom]

107. He needs to know that if you hold your hand out to a monster

it's likely to get bitten off.

[yardwork]

122. kick because I'm furious about this.

[pnwmom]

123. I'm not very thrilled, either. n/t

[dsc]

8. This is literally unbelievable

I just don't know what to say.

[Tatiana]

17. He is courting that Southern black vote that he will need to defeat Hillary.

This is a political, strategic move. However, I fear that in his desire to get African-Americans to unite around his candidacy, he is going to forevermore alienate a lot of gays.

[pnwmom]

18. Alienate gays AND their friends and family members. n/t

[mondo joe]

26. I hope Obama enjoys his 30 pieces of silver.

That's a biblical reference - he'll get it.

[alfredo]

19. Two messages sent. One designed to appeal a very religious

conservative segment of the black community. The other was to neutralize the Obama/Muslim smear.

I wouldn't get too excited over appeals to different segments of our base. It's a dirty business, but it is something that has to be done during the primaries.

That's why I don't get too upset over what is said and done during primary season. This is how the game is played and one shouldn't get their knickers in a knot over every move.

[Ferret Annica]

22. Kirbyjon Caldwell in the Obama camp

keeps me out of it. With Dennis Kucinich's hopes so dismal, I will be voting Ron Paul in all likelihood. Even if I have to write him in.

If associating with a sexual orientation Nazi that doesn't recognize homosexuality as normal human sexual behavior is Obama's game, he's too idiotic to take seriously. I don't need a wishy washy pander bear for my POTUS.

[LordJFT]

32. oh yeah much better a racist who said he wouldn't support gay rights even at the state level

than someone who has one homophobe on his campaign staff. Good thinking.

[Ferret Annica]

42. I was expecting that lie to be put forth.

Dr. Paul is no racist. But he is a man with courage and who is known to have excellent ethical beliefs who as a candidate is heads and shoulders above the choices in the Democratic race. Dennis Kucinich and possibly John Edwards are the only ones in the bunch currently I see as supportable in the general election.

[chascarrillo]

62. Ethics like taking money from Neo-Nazis

Dude, go the fuck away.

[LostinVA]

99. See? We found some common ground

Paul is a fascist.

[LostinVA]

98. He IS a racist and a sexist and a homophobe -- he is no progressive

He's not fit to walk with ANY of the Dem candidates whom have run this year.

"That lie"???

OMG.

[smokey nj]

23. Delete, posted in wrong spot. Sorry!

[msongs]

29. relax! obama operates from the belief that you are all sinners nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. Yep, any Christian church can make you depressed. You don't have to be gay.

Kirbyjon Caldwell is a sellout to George Bush. His church is allegedly Methodist but they do lots of hands in the air, holy roller type stuff that mainstream denominations don't do.

Lots of people at his church (from the pulpit and from the pews) are happy to judge you and tell you what a worthless POS you are, and how you really don't deserve any consideration from anybody. Whether you are straight or gay, doesn't matter.

Original Sin is complete bullshit and it is incredibly harmful and shattering to millions of peoples' mental health. A person should not be made to feel guilty for anything they are not responsible for--like being born. That is what is politely called a mindfuck.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

74. Just an FYI

A number of individual churches within the mainstream denominations do "lots of hands in the air" type stuff - especially within the black community, but most certainly within other segments as well. Stuff that some folks within the church might called "spirt-filled."

Hands in the air is just one way to "praise" - it doesn't mean you believe in the hocus, pocus prosperity gospel or any of the other crap a lot of charletans are selling these days.

Years ago I went with a friend to a Catholic church that was probably 60 to 70% black. Best "hands in the air" music I ever heard, but it was still a very "Catholic" mass. (I used to be Catholic.)

[krabigirl]

117. Exactly.

[Bonobo]

38. You are a spam poster. Worthless. Completely worthless. I will not ignore you.

I will see where you are, and register your presence like someone might register the presence of a fly in the room. That is all. No more significance than that will you ever have with me.

Goodbye. I shall still see thee, but shall no longer hear thee.

[IndianaJones]

39. bwahaha.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Fine. But it's the truth. Can't handle the truth?

:) :) :)

I have personal experience at Kirbyjon's church, with his congregation, staff and his ministers. It's not hearsay. I could swear to it in an affidavit. The stuff I previously mentioned about judging really happened.

They never read that part about "Judge not, lest ye be judged", I guess. Or they skipped over "As you did it to the least of them, so also you did it unto Me".

Hmmm, I wonder why they conveniently forget to read some of these parts of the New Testament???
:sarcasm:

[IndianaJones]

40. I learn more from the responses to the OP than the OP itself. nt.

[Maven]

45. Someone at Talkleft raised an interesting point on the timing of this

Why announce his support now?

Could it be that the "dog whistle" from McClurkin had faded from memory?

[Lorien]

47. "Sexual brokenness"??

geez, some people seriously need to get a life and get their noses out of everyone else's!

[JackDragna]

56. I once experienced "sexual brokenness"..

..when I forgot to wear an athletic supporter during a football game. Or did they mean something else? I can never tell.

[avrdream]

54. This just made me cry:

"There is hope and healing for you through Jesus Christ. The Metanoia Ministries family welcomes you."

So many teenagers struggling with their homosexuality and they have to hear that they can be healed. So many teen suicides.

Does Barack have any clue whatsoever about the pain this type of thinking causes? He should be disavowing all of these statements but he remains silent.

So many teen suicides.

[JackDragna]

55. "Are you reeling in shock over the news that a friend...

...or family member performs the same sex acts that heterosexuals can perform, but instead chooses to do it with same-sex partners? Nosy, Intolerant Ministries of Someplace want you to know you're not alone. We offer prayer, healing and cookies. Cookies designed to take you away from your constant thoughts of writhing, sweaty bodies of same-sex couples doing things you'd kill to do right now. Remember, Jesus loves you, and cares more about what people do with their winkies than whether 90% of the world eats cardboard boxes for breakfast, or lives in them."

[Binka]

85. God Damn That Is Brilliant!

I was thinking of penning a similar tome but I am at work and people keep walking in my fucking office, HATS OFF JACK in a nutshell that is the crux of this biscuit.

AFAIC these sanctimonious, self righteous shitdustbags who want to legislate and mitigate and castigate others about sexual preference are fucking TWISTED UPTIGHT FREAKS WHO AREN'T GETTING LAID. PERIOD. And they themselves are quite likely to be deeply closeted queers.

My ex husband is in total denial about our 21 year old son who is openly gay. I've known for years that Mark himself is a closeted gay man, it was a big part of why I left him, so he could find a more suitable partner. But the dipshit, because of his religion went out and married another beard, and has been miserable for the past 17 years.

I told him to fucking keep that wacky religious shit away from Ian. I raised him to embrace who he is and he isn't conflicted with or by his homosexuality. It is WHO HE IS. It is not a "lifestyle" it is his fucking life. LITERALLY. End of rant from Mom.

[Raster]

113. Bless Your Heart! Major hugs to you and yours!

:grouphug: :yourock:

[Solly Mack]

57. Caldwell's a hater...nothing but

and he cloaks his hate in religion like so many others.

[leftchick]

58. this shows how fucking clueless obama is

I am beginning to think he is another bush with better oration skills. fuck it!

[gollygee]

66. I'm really troubled that these types of people see something they like in a major Dem. candidate

If they like him that much, I have to wonder why.

Also, did he actively ask for this person to campaign for him? I mean Obama isn't responsible for everyone who says they like him, but if he purposely put this person in his campaign, then that's a real problem IMO. Edwards is my first choice, and Obama has been my second, but this would move Clinton up to second place. Well, actually, I probably like Kucinich best, but he is sadly off the map as of late.

My guess is that he's worried about being seen as a Muslim and wants to appeal to the conservative Christian movement. That doesn't sit well with me. Has he spoken to this person in private about his views? I wonder what he said. :(

[terrya]

67. There is NO excuse to traffic with those evil hatemongers.

And goddammit, don't fucking dare to bring up "Hillary's McClurkins" or DOMA or DADT. Homophobia is evil...but the sheer abusive, emotionally damaging aspect of this despicable attempts to get gay lesbian and bisexual people to "cure" themselves because they're "sick" and a "curse" is a whole new level of hatred.

It's why I have no respect for Obama anymore.

[cboy4]

70. As I said in another thread, I spend a day mostly away

from the internets watching football playoff games and come back to read this?

And how sad some of the comments are from some DUers I usually respect.

[Evergreen Emerald]

71. that is really offensive. What the hell is Obama thinking?

[Marrah_G]

73. What a hateful and disgusting man he is

I'd just like to see one of these assholes try and "fix" my child- If she didn't kick their as first....I would.

[pingzing58]

78. Obama is going to build a majoritycoalition like Pelosi has reached across the isle?

[karlrschneider]

79. Kirbyjon? ??? That's the gayest name I've ever heard of!

:eyes:

[Binka]

86. I'm Reeling In Shock That Obama Is Pandering To These Vile Sacks Of Shit

My gay child is NOT BROKEN and doesn't need to be FIXED. These people need to be shot and removed from the DNA pool. Seriously, their brand of evil just must be cleansed.

[LWolf]

93. I'm not shocked.

Pandering to right-wing evangelicals and other republicans has been part of Obama's strategy all along.

I can't say I understand why any Democrat would excuse it, but I'm not shocked.

[LanternWaste]

97. Does this ministry speak for Obama's projected national...

Does this ministry speak for Obama's projected national and international policies and agendas? Or is this ministry simply endorsing a candidate?

[Bluebear]

102. It's not an endorsement, he is actively appearing for Obama

[Manifestor_of_Light]

104. WIndsor Village United Methodist Church

Is the name of Kirbyjon Caldwell's church. They do a lot of holy roller type hollering and raising their hands in the air that I have never seen in a regular Methodist church.

Do your own research. Kirbyjon has sucked up to Bush for a long time now.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

111. BTW, most of the people there were really nice.

But there are always a few people who just can't resist the urge to judge you and tell you what to do, and what you deserve, and so forth.

[MzShellG]

114. My vote for Obama will has nothing to do will a paster/gospel singer.

I doubt anyone elses will either.

[knitter4democracy]

115. Is this a Rovian tactic? A smear of some kind?

It's so easy to jump up and get pissed (and these people are just what will get me ranting and raving for hours), but I wonder what's going on. Why now? Is this really from the Obama campaign or one of those things where a group gets someone hateful to most of his followers to come out publically in support? Is the Obama campaign really so stupid as to use someone like this to get homophobic votes?

[Bluebear]

116. Oh no not at all. Caldwell has been working for the Obama campaign since last summer....

From the "Embrace the Change" tour:

"At the event, McClurkin said more about himself than the man who the concert was supposed to help, Obama. But the singer said the candidate "is standing for change" and "a man not afraid to bring different opinions to the stage."

In fact, for all the criticism on the left for President Bush mixing faith with politics, some of the speakers essentially described voting for Obama as akin to a religious cause.

"He's more than a conqueror through Jesus Christ," said Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Houston pastor who was on the tour and is backing on Obama.

[knitter4democracy]

118. Crap, then. Is Obama not listening to anyone, then?

Those vultures are evil, and he needs to purge them from his campaign and get on his knees and beg forgiveness, that's for sure.

[kevinbgoode]

119. Funny that I've never seen any atheist "opinions" brought to the stage

I'm sick and tired of this constant pandering to some "religions" while ignoring the beliefs of other Americans. It appears arrogant and like some kind of entitlement, as if we can ONLY have "people of faith". .. more specifically, CERTAIN kinds of people of faith, at the helm of this country. In my mind, this constant pandering is an assault on our Constitution and the rights of other Americans.

I'm sick of hearing about candidate's "religious" beliefs - they are supposed to be personal. I want to hear discussions about issues that affect ALL Americans. And I have a simple message for the Democratic presidential candidates:

MY LIFE AND MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ARE NOT AN "ISSUE" - AND I DO NOT SACRIFICE THOSE RIGHTS TO PLACATE SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOSEN "RELIGIOUS" BELIEFS. PERIOD.

[otherlander]

120. Jesus Christ!

These insane fundies are worse than those people who are trying to cure Asperger's!
:yoiks: