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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:45 PM
Original message
Christians: Excommunicate Bush
"If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you: the evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain any change. But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the community; and if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a pagan or a tax collector." Matthew 18: 15-17

It is time for Christians to treat George Bush as an outcast, to tell the world that he is no longer in our community.

Virtually every Christian church, with the exception of the Southern Baptist church, has condemned the occupation of Iraq.

Mr. Bush isnt even willing to listen to the Christian communities. He believes all of them are misguided and is confident that God speaks to him.

He has us set aside international agreements about crimes against humanity; the US knows best.

How many Christian communities would approve of water-boarding, or other forms of torture, under any set of circumstances?

If we associate with George Bush, we are telling the world that this is how Christians treat other human beings and that any measure, including crimes against humanity, is acceptable to protect us from even the most remote possibility of harm. Our lives matter most.

Maybe as citizens, we cant impeach him; but those of us who come from the various denominations in Christianity can condemn his actions by refusing to meet him or be associated with him. We can one by one publicly declare: we disassociate ourselves from him.

There is great diversity among the Christian churches; there is a lot we cannot agree upon but the Sermon on the Mount and whatever you do to the least of these seem to be central to the faith we share, beyond debate. When Christ spoke of visiting those in prison, might the innocent at Guantanamo
be among those he had in mind?

We look back and wonder why very few German Christians were willing to condemn horrendous crimes against human beings. Six million Jews were the victims of inaction by earlier generations of Christians. How many in Islam, and how many of our own fellow citizens, will have to die before we speak up and say: Stop.

Mr. Bush, in the name of Jesus Christ, stop the killing for oil.

And to the world say, we are modeling what we are asking from Islamic leaders, we condemn this violence and its perpetrators. Please dont judge our religion by the actions of this man, we have no traffic with him. He is now an outcast. See how he stands alone.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. its my understanding the Methodists did this years ago
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. I wasn't clear
His church has been courageous.

I was suggesting we as individuals might do this.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Actually, no...not formally.
There is a request, sent by the New England UM Conference to this year's Quadrennial General Conference, to do so, but it has not yet been addressed.

Even the request was blocked before being endorsed at the New England Annual Conference in June. The N.E. Bishop deftly got the conference adjourned before it could be voted on. But because the proposal was addressed to General Conference, it should at least be listed on the agenda.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. It's a lot too late for that
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 10:37 PM by hfojvt
I wrote up articles for excommunication in 2003, but I really had no clue how to introduce them to the General Assembly. Since I missed the 2003 deadline, I dropped the project. I figured it was a moot point in 2004 since he was sure to lose the election in a landslide.

I guess I am not much of a prophet either in predicting the future or in speaking out against evil.

edit - okay, my memory is faulty, but my records are not. I actually wrote my article in 2004, but had already missed the deadline. I floated the idea on DU, but didn't get an over-whelming response although it was my introduction to SouthlandShari.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Uhh, Doc....
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 08:53 PM by Ecumenist
bush isn't a Christian, trust me, I am one. I'm pretty sure that you have to be one first in order to be excommunicated. I absolutely D-E-S-P-I-S-E bush and if the the Good Lord decided to call him home for a chat, I wouldn't argue. It's up to God to make that decision, in my opinion. But I hear ya... I believe that God has a "plan" for him, cheney and a few hundred others to answer for and pay for the atrocities soon and if I were them, I'd plan on a fairly warm clime in an ultraboot camp environment.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:57 PM
Original message
I agree; let's declare that in a public way. Thanks.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. I just noticed that you're a neophyte DU'er
This is something that has been discussed to the nth degree. Welcome to Du, right proud to meetcha. Hope to have more interplay with you in the future.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks ;-)
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Thanks.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Welcome, Doc Martin.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thanks, AlinPA
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I don know much bout church matters re Bush...But HE DOES display many many negative signs. He is no
INTJ person...dats fer sure....

NPD, Abuser, Bully, Arrogant, Lie Cheat Steal, Defiant, etc.

He also uses False Signs to FOOL....so he can RULE.

Charming and Charismatic Approaches(Ala Cheers mentality) fool too many peeps to fall for the mental entrapment of supporting him.

This may not excommunicate him but instead....sure as hell makes him into a gigantic ASSHOLE.....
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. I just created a "Belief" folder in my Bookmarks pull-down:
And this is the first article I saved there.

New York Review of Books, Gary Wills

I'll probably have to add a second folder, with links to articles and websites that aren't about exposing the Dark Side.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thanks for the link!
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excommunicate should start with the United Methodist Church which opposed the invasion of Iraq from
the beginning.

Cheney is also a member of the United Methodist Church.

Unfortunately excommunication won't happen.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. They have been showing courage; I admire those leaders
I am not talking about the institutional Church but rather individuals. Who will be photographed with him tomorrow???
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. History will not judge Christian silence about the Bush regime kindly
There was a time when Christians took the lead against war and inequality. Witness Dr. King, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Berrigan brothers. There have been a few notable witnesses against the tragedy of the Bush regime, but too often there has been silence, acquiescence and a willingness to let the likes of James Dobson define the Christian message. It's unacceptable, and the mainstream Christian denominations have much to answer for in failing to stand up so as to make a difference.

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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Some of us are making up for lost time
and I extend my apologies for years of backing them.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. FaygoKid, Christians have been speaking up
I seem to remember the church in which bush claims memership putting out info that bush only uses them for photo ops. Millions of Christians have ben crying out but the ones you hear most from are the extreme right wing, nutty, bat-squeezings crazy, cult pseudo-christians. WE TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN WORKING LONG AND HARD AGAINST THIS IDIOT AND HIS INSANE WORLD VIEW.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Keep it up, and thanks.
The next time I hear a Republican cite the Beatitudes will be the first. Astounding how they can ignore this:

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I agree, Let's do more
My suggestion is a literal one, Christians might not ever enable his photo ops: let him be pictured standing alone/
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. CHristianity is not the world police
it's an avenue to get closer to god.

How true that actually is, I have no idea.

But you as an "American voter" could just as easily be charged with "acquiescence". Keep in mind that the same way you view the church's inaction, so does the rest of the world view you.

The Bush Cabal is more powerful than you or I, or the church.

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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Yep.
Guilty as charged. You are right. As an American, I don't know what more I can do.

I was suggesting to fellow individual Christians (not churches) that they not be seen with him.

Thanks.
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Your point is also well taken
Thanks.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. Exactly! Where were they all when they should have been speaking out against this devil!
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. Many denominations were not silent about the war, even at the beginning.
I think Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, and Catholic leaders from all over the US, and as groups, condemned the war.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excommunication is a Catholic thing. Last I checked,
Bush was Methodist.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. There's a good discussion of it here...
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Not proposing a formal move....
I believe that Mr. Bush's church (Methodist) has been courageous in speaking out but I am not talking about a formal institutional declaration rather I am suggesting that individual Christians who are seen with him need to do shun him, a la the Amish.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. wrong! many religious groups use excommunication.
methodists are one. mormons are one. catholics are one. many use it.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Please to educate me on the Methodist excommunication rites
As this is new to me.

Look, I am no fan of *, but lets stick to facts. It is a credibility issue.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. i don't know the actual rites, but most think revocation of membership
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 09:14 PM by bpeale
is the equivalent of excommunication. the following was found on the web:


"Nonetheless, people across the country and locally continue to take notice and weigh in on things. Nearly 1,000 United Methodists signed a petition calling for the Highland Park United Methodist Church, located right by SMU, to revoke George W. Bush and Dick Cheney’s membership unless they “repent” of their violations of United Methodist teachings. I suppose this is the Methodist equivalent of excommunication."

on edit: it's doubtful if you are not methodist that you would actually know the method of excommunication. i know its true of mormons because i used to be one.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Wow!
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've brought this up several times, and haven't gotten a reply from the Bishops.
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 08:58 PM by IanDB1
Here's the contact info for the Methodist Bishops:
http://www.umc.org/site/pp.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=1716943


Bush's bishops: Exit Iraq now
Topic started by sabra on Nov-09-07 04:35 PM (22 replies)
Last modified by LynnTheDem on
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

AP: Methodist ministers: No Bush Library at Southern Methodist University
Topic started by DeepModem Mom on Jan-18-07 01:20 PM (78 replies)
Last modified by Jamastiene on Jan-29-07 04:37 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Troops refusing Iraq duty get a haven (First United Methodist Church)
Topic started by sabra on Jun-15-06 10:10 AM (65 replies)
Last modified by shayes51 on Jun-17-06 04:59 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. Piss on him.



He'd be more like to notice that.

:shrug:




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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. bu$h only use the Christianity thing to make some believe in him
He wears the Christianity theme on his shirt sleeve.
If he were a true Christian he would never have started this war and wouldn't allow torture to take place while he was in office.

Why Christians continue to embrace the imbecile is beyond me.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. I find this hard to understand
The MSM is an enabler here; they tell his fairy tale about being a "person of faith"
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Propaganda
The bu$h regime has the propaganda machine Russia only dreamed about
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. Christianity was Rove's idea,,,
A man who's non-religious.

He viewed them as an unclaimed demographic, easily manipulated.....
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. The sheep's clothing for the wolves!
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. It's up to his particular denomination
to excommunicate him.

Otherwise it's all semantics.


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