What Exactly Is a "Jesuitical Argument"?

Yikes.

I'm re-watching the interview that Senator Clinton gave on MTP from earlier today, and the series of questions about her IWR vote produced this quote:

"You know, look, judgment is not a single snapshot. Judgment is what you do across the course of your life and your career ..."

Russert tries to ask a follow-up, and the two talk over each other for a moment.

"You know, well, you know, Tim, we could have this - uh - Jesuitical - uh - argument about what exactly was meant. You know, when Chuck Hagel, who helped to draft the resolution said it was not a vote for war, when I was told directly by the White House in response to my question - if you are given this authority, will you put the inspectors in and permit them to finish their job - I was told that's exactly what we intended to do. Now, I think it's important to take a look at the entire context here. If Senator Obama is gonna get credit for his speech and his position against the war, then he deserves to be asked what happened in Oh-3, Oh-4, Oh-5, Oh-6, and Oh-7."

Oh, brother.

But wouldn't that devolve into a Jesuitical Argument?

- Dave

P.S. On edit, here is the MTP page with the Netcast and transcript.

P.P.S. On further edit, I thought just about everyone knew about Tim Russert's Catholic upbringing, education, and background, given his frequent mentions of Sister Lucille. Edited to provide that additional context.

... and a bit of a swipe at Russert, methinks.

- Dave

A damn fine education!

They want people to think for themselves, to make logical, educated arguments, and to not accept something just because some "authority" says it's so.

Once you get to know one, it quickly becomes apparent that there's humor there.

- Dave

One of my profs (a Jesuit), who is now president of that university, cracked me up one day.

We'd gotten to be friends, and we were having coffee one day, and I asked him why he decided on the priesthood. Without skipping a beat, he said, "Because I couldn't get a date in high school."

:rofl:

... have been spent bent over a chessboard, nursing a beverage, and cursing a Jesuit (figuratively, not literally, of course).

; )

- Dave

You said "and to not accept something just because some "authority" says it's so."

Your statement strikes me as ironic considering the Roman Catholic Church's reliance on authority, Papal infallibility, etc. Indeed, the entire structure of the Church seems to be built on the idea of accepting the edicts of it's authorities.

My guess is that any Jesuit Priest that questions the authority of the Church a little too much, wouldn't be a Jesuit Priest for long.

... I have found them to be extremely open to criticisms of the Church, and often among the most erudite and effective critics of the system from within the system.

- Dave

They may question or criticize some aspect or tenet of the Church, but ultimately, they must have confidence and faith in the complete authority of the Church.
If not, they could just be Protestants.

Or worse.

; )

Some make it to the bottom of the ravine, and live to tell about it.

- Dave

they're often the mavericks in a hierarchy getting ever more moribund. Which has been what's made them good educators.

They always seem to know the best "hole in the wall" good eats, too.

Many I've spoken with are truly saddened by the current state of the institution.

- Dave

tell us about what a good education they provide!

... in large part because it really does force one to think for oneself.

- Dave

They used to be a holy terror!

Woe to the Czech protestant who ran into them in the wake of the 30 years war.

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

- Dave

Now I know that the inquisition was most often run by Dominicans, but Jesuits participated in very similar things, and as perpetrators.

This is new. It must be wrong! Dominicans are still sore over the promulgation of the Assumption by Pius XII in 1950

... I kneel and obey.

- Dave

Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/loyola-spirex.htm...

Eleanor Roosevelt and Ignatius Loyola - war council from the beyond.

- Dave

All it took was 4 years of a Jesuit High School and I learned religion is superstition. One year at a Jesuit University iced that cake!

http://dailycon.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/jesuitical /

Very early, owing in part to English Protestant propagandists, the word “Jesuitical” came to characterize a form of argument designed less to seek the truth than to make a case, a form of argument that was aggressive and clever but perhaps not always sincere - indeed, one that was at times cunningly equivocal or downright deceitful. Aside from pure anti-Jesuit animus, this nuance probably arose from the work of some 17th-century Jesuit theologians who imperfectly employed a method known as “casuistry” in resolving questions of moral theology - an approach that gave the broadest possible leeway to individual behavior. This form of justification, which became known as “laxism,” may explain why Jesuit priests were the confessors of choice among Europe’s Catholic aristocracy.

... but I am more interested in its context and meaning on today's interview.

- Dave

I would imagine Senator Clinton meant an endless hashing over little details.

... I thought it was an intentional barb.

Very shrewd move, two days before she faces Russert at the debates.

- Dave

wonder if Russert took it as jab --or a compliment to his education then?

... the link is in the OP.

- Dave

"Jesuitical" is like "sesquipedalian" or "recherche".

Parsing Obama's words in his absence is "Jesuitical". Asking him about his votes directly is not.

Hillary is getting slammed for a position that is not substantially different than Obama's; of course she's going to raise the point.

I don't hold support for the war against either of them. I kept up with the votes, and they were can't-win situations tailored to make the GOP look good at the expense of the Democratic Party. All the talk about backbone and principles is hot air; if you don't win, you don't govern.

--p!

Dumbsfeldt was a superb source of jesuitical arguments too.

_"Jesuitic"_. -- 2. One given to subtle _casuistry_.

Dumb or naïve... I don't get it. :shrug:

... sounds like the "perfect" cure for a hangover!

; )

"Leave me alone, I want to die. That's my thesis, and you'd be unethical to deny it"

(Overheard in a college dorm, circa 1994.)

- Dave

I missed the college dorm experience, so couldn't make the connection.

... for hangover-induced practice of the art.

; )

- Dave

thinker." I was also impressed. Russert was playing checkers with his usual "gotchas" and Hillary was playing chess. She won.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Russert and his research staff go "Jesuitical" in the next two days, to hurl a brushback pitch at her with respect to a triangulation - er, answer - she gave today.

- Dave

environment free of distractions and just the three of them... Should be a clinic! :kick:

'em Johnny!

... eyes, ears, open mind, and - optionally -

:popcorn:

- Dave

... at Catholic voters.

- Dave

obsesses of Senator Clinton.Truly pathetic

... who could no longer keep his blinders on.

- Dave

welcome to reality! Scary as it is.

:toast:

... and the enormous well of goodwill I had stored up for her was simply exhausted by repeated reference to facts.

:toast:

- Dave

... and Mark Penn might - MIGHT - have one square in his view.

- Dave

She could appeal to Reagan Lovers by playing it off as an unknown open mic.

Ides

It burns, it burns!

Now that you have sullied me, will you make an honest man out of me?

Ides

I think it is, when Davey Jones shakes, well 'shakes' but he does so with his tentacles & goo Jack Sparrow's hand, but then Sparrow says, "Mr. Gibbs, I feel sullied and unusual." a great line imo :hi:

"You're not a eunuch are you?"

"All by me onesies."

Ides

with nealy all gold teeth, the studio guys were all, "Uh...we're not sure." Depp started pulling out the so-called gold till he got it down to where they were comfortable and the rest is film & popcorn history :hi:

"You want to know me?"

You're quick on the draw.

Ides

... you should quit while you're ahead. You just may be outmatched. She has you on the ropes.

:spray:

- Dave

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=pirates+of+the+car

The quotes for each movie are a study in hilarity.

I doff my hat to thee.

Ides

... she was on a roll.

The "disciplined candidate" thing strikes again.

- Dave

... your issues onto a surface that doesn't reflect them.

- Dave

I can hear ya munchin on your TUMS all the way over here!

And for the record, your surface may not reflect, but it most certainly is transparent...

Nighty nite!

... a DUzy.

:rofl:

; )

- Dave

minutia that only a full-throated and impassioned exclamation of "WTF?", and the immediate exit from the field of rhetorical combat will preserve one's sanity.

But, I'm not a Jesuit.

(Raised Roman Catholic -- but I moved on.)

sw

But was it a regret-inducing comment, given Russert's background?

- Dave

... that answer will *never* do if you're a candidate.

; )

- Dave

for all to see. I have an extremely low tolerance for bullshit.

(Maybe you *should* run, after all.)

- Dave

In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the seas! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair...

As for the WABAC Machine, savvy intellectual property proprietors talk to Archive.org to remove / block archiving.

- Dave

Now I get it.

I was trying to figure out a suffix for legalistic that involved a "collar" - YIKES.

- Dave

because the simple truth is that you voted the wrong way. Surprisingly, it doesn't seem to work well with voters.

... to make it clearer. My vote is for her to have the opportunity to do so all the way thru the end of her current Senate term.

- Dave

Some of us can actually listen to an answer longer than ten words. Simple truth is an oxymoron.

For example, if being against the war is the correct position, then so would be voting against funding it. Even though I'm Catholic, I still think it's a stretch to compare this with a Jesuit school background. The explanation I gave you is the only thing I can think of of what he might have meant.

Jesuit priests are noted for teaching logic and debate.	rwheeler31	Jan-13-08 06:49 PM	#1
A Damn Fine Education, Too...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 06:50 PM	#2
I graduated from a Jesuit university, and I have to agree.	SeattleGirl	Jan-13-08 07:12 PM	#15
Funny Guys, Too!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:13 PM	#16
Absolutely!	SeattleGirl	Jan-13-08 07:17 PM	#18
Some of the Most Pleasant Evenings I've Spent...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:27 PM	#22
Don't you find your statement rather contradictory?	progressoid	Jan-13-08 08:15 PM	#31
In My Experience with Jesuit Priests...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 08:22 PM	#32
Sure, up to a point.	progressoid	Jan-13-08 08:34 PM	#33
"Or worse." It's a Slippery Slope...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 08:36 PM	#34
Yes. I have to agree	JerseygirlCT	Jan-14-08 09:09 AM	#82
Sharp as Tacks, and They Play Excellent Games of Chess, to Boot	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:12 AM	#
My dad was educated by Jesuits, and never failed to	JerseygirlCT	Jan-14-08 10:08 AM	#91
I'd Entrust My Kids to Their Schooling...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 10:17 AM	#92
Jesuits now aren't what they used to be	JVS	Jan-14-08 09:15 AM	#85
Well, You Know What They Say...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:16 AM	#86
Well over in another thread someone is telling me jesuits were not inquisitors but victims	JVS	Jan-14-08 09:18 AM	#87
That Would Be a Dominicanical Argument, Right?	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:21 AM	#88
I think the Domincan (or Dominicanian/Dominicanical argument) is...	JVS	Jan-14-08 09:30 AM	#89
When Python Speaks Ex Cathedra...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:58 AM	#90
Especially considering that Ignatius Loyola's 13th rule	JVS	Jan-14-08 09:12 AM	#83
Maybe Hillary Is Communing with Him to Run Her Campaign?	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:14 AM	#84
Dangerous ideas.... logical argument and reason.	Bigmack	Jan-14-08 12:26 AM	#44
enjoy!	maddiejoan	Jan-13-08 06:50 PM	#3
The Counter-Reformation Is a Favorite Period of History for Me...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 06:52 PM	#5
In context	maddiejoan	Jan-13-08 06:53 PM	#7
Given Russert's Frequent Mention of His Jesuit Education...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:28 PM	#23
didn't know that about Russert's education	maddiejoan	Jan-13-08 07:30 PM	#24
View for Yourself...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:32 PM	#25
Long-winded, not long	Pigwidgeon	Jan-13-08 06:51 PM	#4
"if you don't win, you don't govern"	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:38 PM	#26
That would depend on what the meaning of "is" is. nt	bemildred	Jan-13-08 06:52 PM	#6
Touche!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 06:53 PM	#8
I thought an example was called for.	bemildred	Jan-13-08 06:56 PM	#10
And a Stunningly Jesuitical Example It Was, at That! n/t	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:24 PM	#21
Jesuitical Argument = slow motion train wreck.......n/t	0007	Jan-14-08 12:07 AM	#38
I Think by Tuesday Night, She Regrets Saying It... n/t	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:19 AM	#42
Bill Clinton graduated from Georgetown, a Jesuit university.	SharonAnn	Jan-14-08 07:21 PM	#99
LOL! Maybe It's a Deeper Freudian Slip on Her Part Than First Suspected!!!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 07:26 PM	#100
Interesting choice of words.	silverweb	Jan-13-08 06:56 PM	#9
Good Hangover Cure, Too	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:07 PM	#12
?	silverweb	Jan-14-08 04:13 AM	#77
Practicing Casuistry...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:06 AM	#79
Got it!	silverweb	Jan-14-08 11:05 AM	#93
College Not Required...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 11:22 AM	#94
My wife's reaction to the interview was that Hillary is a "clear	Rydz777	Jan-13-08 07:07 PM	#11
"... and we'll see you Tuesday night in Nevada."	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:09 PM	#13
Yep... And Just Wait fer Ole Pro John Edwards to UnMask The Phonies in what is now a debate	DaLittle Kitty	Jan-13-08 07:42 PM	#28
And We All Get to "Audit" His Seminar, with the Only Prereq Being...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 08:07 PM	#30
I agree with your wife. And she is very intelligent.	durrrty libby	Jan-13-08 07:11 PM	#14
Yeah, It Was a Masterstroke to Take a Jab...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:14 PM	#17
You are just a sad little insecure fellow. The exact type who	durrrty libby	Jan-13-08 07:18 PM	#19
No, I'm a Reformed Hillary Clinton Supporter...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:21 PM	#20
good for you	leftchick	Jan-13-08 07:41 PM	#27
Facts Are Stubborn Things...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 07:46 PM	#29
I like that description	jeme	Jan-13-08 09:35 PM	#35
Too Bad She Only Sees a Single Plane of the Board...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-13-08 09:45 PM	#36
Maybe she didn't know the mic was on?	IdesOfOctober	Jan-13-08 11:19 PM	#37
Enjoy the Reagan MX Missile Mix	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:57 AM	#60
Oh please, it's akin to: The Talmudic Splitting of Hairs	bridgit	Jan-14-08 12:13 AM	#39
Is that like Tantric Tweezing of the Nosehairs?	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:17 AM	#40
i do have a tantric pic but it will get this thread locked...	bridgit	Jan-14-08 12:19 AM	#41
Oh, the things you learn about your fellow DUers on here.	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:22 AM	#43
well, alright, maybe just this once...enjoy!	bridgit	Jan-14-08 12:28 AM	#45
My eyes! My eyes!	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:40 AM	#49
"sullied", I love that line from Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest	bridgit	Jan-14-08 12:48 AM	#55
I went as Cap'n Jack last Halloween.	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:50 AM	#57
a great film character, word was Depp went into the casting sessions...	bridgit	Jan-14-08 12:57 AM	#61
"I definitely deserved that."	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:59 AM	#62
then cheers it is...	bridgit	Jan-14-08 01:03 AM	#64
"But how's your footwork?"	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 01:04 AM	#65
I Do Believe...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:28 AM	#75
You know about IMDB, right?	IdesOfOctober	Jan-14-08 12:55 AM	#59
Ya Know, She Totally Kicked Ass This Morning. That Must Be Eating You Up Inside.	OPERATIONMINDCRIME	Jan-14-08 12:34 AM	#46
She Snarked from a Position of Strength, No Doubt about It...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:38 AM	#48
Eatttttttttin Ya Up Inside. LOL	OPERATIONMINDCRIME	Jan-14-08 12:44 AM	#51
You're Projecting...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:45 AM	#53
Eatttttttin Ya Up Inside, That Competent Performance From Her Is.	OPERATIONMINDCRIME	Jan-14-08 12:49 AM	#56
Nitey Nite! n/t	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:51 AM	#58
BTW, Thanks for the Jesuitical Argument!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:02 AM	#63
LOL No Problem!	OPERATIONMINDCRIME	Jan-14-08 01:06 AM	#68
As a "Case in Point," This One May Have Been...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:09 AM	#70
Not an official definition, but I think of it as an argument that resorts to such absurd degrees of	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 12:38 AM	#47
Good Practical Working Definition!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:42 AM	#50
I didn't watch MTP this morning, so I am unable to answer your question. (nt)	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 01:05 AM	#67
Don't Run for Office...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:10 AM	#71
Don't intend to. But if I did, I'd want to have Timmeh's balls for breakfast on national TV	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 01:18 AM	#73
But You Didn't Say "No," You Talked about "Intent" - ARE YOU RUNNING?	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:20 AM	#74
I'll have to consult with my strategists and pollsters -- I'll get back to you. (nt)	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 01:32 AM	#76
So You've Established an Exploratory Committee; Come on, That's NOT A NO!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:07 AM	#80
You offer it to me freely. I cannot deny that my heart has greatly desired this.	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 06:47 PM	#95
Aw, Come on, Galadriel: You KNOW That's Not a Sherman Statement!	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 06:48 PM	#96
Sherman will make his statement AFTER Mr. Peabody instructs him on where to set the WABAC Machine.	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 08:51 PM	#101
"I'm just doing my job, ma'am."	CorpGovActivist	Jan-15-08 05:17 PM	#102
That's right. It's legalistic with one more syllable and a collar. n/t	sfexpat2000	Jan-14-08 12:45 AM	#52
puzzled look	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 12:47 AM	#54
The term is just a more figurative way to mean "legalistic".	sfexpat2000	Jan-14-08 07:42 AM	#78
Oh, I Thought It Was Dirty	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 09:08 AM	#81
LOL! That works quite well. (nt)	scarletwoman	Jan-14-08 01:12 AM	#72
Its when you have to take 1/2 hour explaining your vote	Radical Activist	Jan-14-08 01:04 AM	#66
Maybe She Can Revise and Expand Her Remarks in the Congressional Record...	CorpGovActivist	Jan-14-08 01:08 AM	#69
Only those voters who demand bumper sticker philosophies	spoony	Jan-14-08 07:17 PM	#98
Maybe it has to do with consistent thinking.	mmonk	Jan-14-08 07:13 PM	#97