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Smith_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:30 PM
Original message
Why don't more people support Kucinich?
Its so obvious that he is the one with the right idea. :shrug: My guesses are people don't really want change, what they want is business as usual with a little less controversy than before.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. because then they couldn't call him unelectable
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. The truth is that over the past 30 years, ...
...has been a lot better at self-promotion than he has at governing.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Really?
Please cite examples of what you say. Thank you.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. There was an article in either Scene or the Free Press a couple...
...months ago that explained it. Those are Cleveland alternative newspapers. Also is Congressional career has been pretty lack-luster. I don't have time to do a term paper for you. You asked and I answered. You know there are five or six Ds challenging him in the primary for the 10th Dist. seat.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I didn't want a term paper
just some citations, which you gave me. What got me was your "30 years self-promotion" deal, since he went into political limbo after being mayor, and was only elected to Congress in the '90s. As to his challenges for his seat--could it be that the corporations want another yes man in Congress to do their bidding and not someone who introduces bills they don't like?

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Because we can't afford to lose again...
And, like it or not, we have to choose someone who can get enough support from Indies to counteract all of the votes Republicans will try to steal.
<><><>

GET OUT THE VOTE! http://www.cafepress.com/powerboutique

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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
85. Obama...Freidman's choice. If Obama wins the primaries...
Bloomberg steps in.

It's a little fishy.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, he's an idealogue. Don't get me wrong. I voted for him in the 2004 caucus
In Washington. But he is uncompromising, and he rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I agree with him on almost everything, but he seems unbending.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I've wondered about that
There are times to be unbending, like he was as mayor of Cleveland, but there are also times to compromise. I don't know his record in the House to know how good he is on compromise.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
52. Dennis does compromise...two recent examples
But not before highlighting the faults.

:)

Kucinich Votes To Override SCHIP Veto
Voted Against Dem Bill Which Left Out Immigrant Children; Voted To Override Presidents Veto Because It Leaves Out All Children

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?Docu...

"...I voted to override the Presidents veto. In the previous SCHIP vote, the Democrats left out up to 600,000 children of immigrants, so I voted against the bill. The President left out all children, so of course I voted to override, Kucinich said.

The bills failure to provide coverage for legal immigrants is wrong. All children deserve health care coverage. Health care is a right, not a privilege. The denial of a life-saving service based on an arbitrary length of citizenship is simply wrong..."



Kucinich Votes For ENDA

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?Docu...

"Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) voted to extend basic civil rights protections to millions of gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans today, continuing his long tradition of championing equality for all.

This civil rights legislation has been a long time in the making. It is Congress responsibility to strengthen its efforts to create the same rights for transgender people, Kucinich said.

Kucinich objected strongly that transgender people were kept out of the law. He opposed the bill when it was up for a vote in the Education and Labor Committee because it did not include the language to provide protections to transgender people. Kucinich has repeatedly expressed concerns that rights of transgendered persons be protected and will soon be meeting with groups to secure the rights of the transgender community as well..."








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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
80. What about the first SCHIP vote?
Oh wait...

He voted no.

He knew full well voting no to override the veto would have ended his campaign.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #80
87. "...the Democrats left out up to 600,000 children..." I'm glad he
brought his issue to our attention, these were children that had been covered at one time. From what I've read these children were covered until the welfare reform that took place during the Clinton administration.

His first no vote would not have made any difference.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Because our media puts personality over issues
they are more interested in talking about how a candidate looks or smiles, etc, than taking a serious look at the issues. And they also want to shut out Dennis because they are scared of what he wants to do.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Because BIG MONEY (Corporate America) Doesn't Want Him
and the media that is influenced by big money would never give him the time to present himself as a credible candidate. If you never get to see or hear a guy's point of view, he doesn't exist.

It's the same reason Bush isn't held accountable or that Sibel Edmonds isn't getting heard.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Ding Ding Ding We have a winner!
The only reason people aren't enraged about Bush's actions is the propaganda and manipulation of the media. Sibel Edmonds is getting the same treatment Dennis is.

We need to get more people weaned away from MSM and onto the internet, which appears to be the only forum where Edmonds and Kucinch can be heard.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. We Need to be The Media
the only problem for me is time.... I'm at work now. It's slow around here so I get to post here and there. But what little I do, I know helps... we all do. There was a time when people didn't have the means to know what was going on in DC besides the paper. Now we have the internet and our own voices.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. No, we need to reform the MSM. Not everyone has a computer
and not everyone can afford one (or can get to a place where they can access one). We need to make sure that the MSM, particularly the non cable networks, are fair.
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madisongrace Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
90. Agree
He either hasn't sold his soul to "Big Money", or "Big Money" doesn't want him. You can bet your boots all the other candidates have to pay the piper.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
137. They Know He Can't Be Bought Either (nt)
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Cornfields_4_Peace Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe because his supporters get banned.
Besides the other comments, the bans on his website have left a people wondering about him. I have always admired the man for staying with his principles. I don't have much faith in him protecting American Freedoms if his website is any indication on how he would handle things.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. supporters or disruptors?
which one are you?
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Cornfields_4_Peace Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
68. Are anti-war protestors "disrupters"?
I would answer that with a question. Should anti-war protesters be silenced for saying something contrary?
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
119. what did you say that led you to be banned? n/t
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Cornfields_4_Peace Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #119
150. Glitch or something said
I am not sure if I was banned because the forum is broken or from a few members who didn't like me disagreeing with them.

The forum has had it's share of technical glitches. I believe others were banned by accident.

It also may be that other members clicked the complain button. I disagreed with some that suicide bombers were never a good response no matter what the background is. I believe some on Kucinich felt that suicide bombers were justified because of things that happened in the past. I think there are better ways than targeting children to make a point.

There are quite a few on the Kucinich forum that are super people. It is sort of weird being in contact and in a moment being cut off from people who wonder where you went! There were others that were banned and they also just.......disappeared one day! So much for diplomacy and the exchange of ideas! :-(
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
56. There are some real problems with his campaign this time around
I'm wondering if he is too trusting of possible moles.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
63. False. There are MANY vocal DK supporters on DU.
I hate when people blame their troubles on their beliefs rather than their actions.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #63
98. I don't believe he's referring to DU.
I think he's talking about people being banned from DK's website.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. My apologies - I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. Because he was anti-choice, and because he's a loon.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. Why is ending a war based on lies looney?
:shrug:

Why is defending American workers interests looney?

Why is wanting health care for everyone looney?

Why is wanting bushCo brought to justice looney?

You make no sense.

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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. He believes in aliens, and he wanted a Dept of Peace.
He's a loon. And unelectable.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. seeing a UFO is not the same as believing in aliens
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. You're right, that's so much better.
:rofl:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. tens of thousands of people--cops, pilots, presidents, doctors . . .
have seen UFOs.

:puke:
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. yep. Just ask President Jimmy Carter
"One evening in 1969, two years before he became governor of Georgia, Carter was preparing to give a speech at a Lions Club meeting. At about 7:15 p.m (EST), one of the guests called his attention to a strange object that was visible about 30 degrees above the horizon to the west of where he was standing. Carter described the object as being bright white and as being about as bright as the moon. It was said to have appeared to have closed in on where he was standing but to have stopped beyond a stand of pine trees some distance from him. The object is then said to have changed color, first to blue, then to red, then back to white, before appearing to recede into the distance.

Carter felt that the object was self-luminous, but not a solid in nature. Carter's report indicates that it was witnessed by about ten or twelve other people, and was in view for ten to twelve minutes before it passed out of sight. <4><1>"

<snip>

The sighting is said to have had a personal impact on Carter and his perception of UFO and UFO sightings. During his 1976 election campaign, he is said to have told reporters that, as a result of it, he would institute a policy of openness if he were elected to office, saying:

"One thing's for sure, I'll never make fun of people who say they've seen unidentified objects in the sky. If I become President, I'll make every piece of information this country has about UFO sightings available to the public and the scientists." <7>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_UFO_Incident

While Carter felt that the object he saw was of terrestrial origin, he still qualified it as a UFO, since he was unable to identify it. Nevertheless, he did have this to say when the US launched the voager space probe:

"We cast this message into the cosmos . . . Of the 200 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy, some - - perhaps many - - may have inhabited planet and space faring civilizations. If one such civilization intercepts Voyager and can understand these recorded contents, here is our message: We are trying to survive our time so we may live into yours. We hope some day, having solved the problems we face, to join a community of Galactic Civilizations. This record represents our hope and our determination and our goodwill in a vast and awesome universe."

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=7890

Carter was no loon, and niether is Kucinich. What they are is open minded. Big minded. Fair minded.

What's lunacy is supporting prememptive wars of aggression. What's lunacy is a for-profit health care system. What's lunacy is spending more on defense than on education, health, infrastructure, the environment.


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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
81. Sell this to a nation where a large chunk still believes in Creationism... {nt}
uguu
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Believing in peace, a sure sign of lunacy.
.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. What have you got against Peace? Do you love war?
We need a dept of peace and he didn't say he believes in UFO's.
He said he thinks he saw one as have many others! Gheesh!

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Explain what a Department of Peace will do.
Pretend I'm an average guy with a 12th-grade education, living and working in Peoria.

Explain to me why we need a Dep't of Peace and how it will work.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. I support a department of peace.
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:41 PM by LWolf
Would you like to call ME a name, or call ME out?
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
79. I'm another who supports a Dept of Peace
I did research for his campaign last election and learned that up on the Navajo reservation, they have something similar. They have chapter houses where they met and discuss grievances & problems for families etc.

This is not a new idea...IIRC, Washington or one of the founding fathers also had suggested a Dept of Peace.

Here is a great article on"A Strategy for the Dept. of Peace to Enhance National Security,Transformation to Create A Culture of Peace".

DR
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #79
107. I've noticed that many people
don't bother to find out just what the proposed "Department of Peace" is supposed to do. The reactions tend to be based in assumptions rather than reality.

What the DOP means to me is that there is a national focus on healing conflict and improving the cooperation and the building of community, from local neighborhoods to the nation, and out to the rest of the world.

It seems to me like we need to start with honoring, nurturing, and increasing empathy among us. Anyone with empathy and accurate information will naturally support the concepts the DOP is based on.

While it may be a long-term goal on the national level, we can each work from our personal lives, in our communities, towards the kind of empathy, and attitude towards others, that will naturally move us forward as a nation.

I'm so glad to hear from you this morning, friend. I KNOW these things, yet sometimes feel like I need to hear a little voice every morning, and throughout the day, reminding me to approach all my interactions with empathy, rather than impatience and frustration.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #107
149. I agree..if they'd take a few minutes to read about it....
it might open some minds to the possibilities.

Yeah, these days impatience and anger seem to be the main emotions rolling around out there and it takes focus & intent not to react, doesn't it?

How's things with you ...the family & the fourleggeds??Hope all is well.
:loveya:
DR
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. We're hanging in there.
Slow but steady progress with the young one, and all the critters are fine.

It's winter, so I don't see daylight at home until the weekend, and it's hard to keep up with chores. We're having an unusually warm winter, which makes keeping everybody watered a lot easier.

I hope things are well down your way, friend.

:hi:

:loveya:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
77. and he's a gun-grabber to boot.
and the cherry on that sundae is that the virginia-tech incident he mentions as a reason to ban handguns- wasn't perpetrated with a handgun :crazy:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
67. I thought y'all called him a "Keebler Elf?"
Now he's a "loon?" :shrug:



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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ron Paul
Because he said he would accept Ron Paul as a running mate. He used to have massive support here but a few comments by his wife and piles of people fled the Kucinich camp for Edwards.

He'd also get creamed in the GE.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yes, those reasons too.
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. Drop that broken record already.
That's more overplayed than the McCloset crap is in the Obama threads. And at least McCloset actually said something WRONG. Kucinich NEVER FUCKING SAID he would make Ron Paul his running mate.

Vote for a corporatist coward if you like, but don't slander a REAL Democrat to do it.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. Slandering?
Not me. I'm just stating the fact that the support for DK around here dropped like a champ after that story - true or not - came out. I like DK on a personal level and think he's very intelligent and well spoken, more, that his arguments for what he wants to do are sound. I don't agree with quite a few of them, but I think he's an honest person.

What the DK supporters don't understand or have put their blinders on to is that he is pretty far left and that most of the country is not. Without some sort of drastic change in the fundamental thinking of Americans, the Kucinich's of the world won't win elections in the US. Ever.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
58. He said he would accept Ron Paul as VP?
Was he serious? WTF?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. That was the rumor that was going around
Some claim it didn't happen. Some claim it was his wife who said it and that Dennis didn't refute it. Some claim it never happened. Some claimed the moon was made of green cheese.

I didn't look that far into because frankly, Kuch has/had no chance anyway. Just stating that DU as a whole seemed to hugely favor DK until that particular story - true or not - came out, and then his popularity on DU crashed and Edwards got a big upswing.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. I support him in congress, but I don't think he would be a good president.
There is more to being a good president than being right on the issues. I don't even think he is always right on the issues.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. But why don't more of the candidates support issues
that resonate with the American people? Over 60% say they want health insurance in the style Dennis wants, for example. Yet the major candidates are shying away from going that far.
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
83. A few to name...
Abortion - Kuch was pro-life until one week before announcing his Pres. bid in '04.
Stem-call research - Opposed it until one week before announcing his Pres. bid in '04.

That debunks the "always right" aspect of Kuch, doesn't it?
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #83
145. Bullshit! Try getting your information from real sources, not Kos.
Abortion - Kuch was pro-life until one week before announcing his Pres. bid in '04.
Stem-call research - Opposed it until one week before announcing his Pres. bid in '04.


He stopped voting against Choice in 2002, has been voting 100% pro-Choice since 2003, has explained his change of heart on principled grounds, and is the only candidate who vows to make Choice a litmus test.

Markos Dlczis is a closet rightwinger. Don't be a fool.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. The same reason more people don't support Ron Paul.
Or Tom Tancredo.

They may be ideologically pure, but they don't have mainstream appeal. Too far on the fringes.

To Joe Six-Pack, they appear a bit, well, kooky.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Kuc is not a nutter like Ron Paul
but he lost a lot of credibility saying he'd run with Paul
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. To Joe Six-Pack, yes, he IS a nutter.
When an average American hears that a candidate wants to establish a "Department of Peace," the average American concludes that said candidate is a kook.

You may not like it. You may agree with Kucinich. But that's reality.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. When it is explained,
people agree with the concept. At least that has been my experience.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. How many average people wait around to hear it explained?
In today's soundbite world, they don't have the attention span.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
55. I've generally found that
when I am talking face to face with a person, they listen to me for longer than 10 seconds.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. You missed the point. Kucinich is not meeting face-to-face with
most potential voters. This isn't about you. It's about why average Amurrikins don't "get" Dennis.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. But a candidate gets his message out
not on his own, but with the help of his supporters. I've heard that he is going to rallies in Michigan now--the only candidate to visit the state. Perhaps he will be getting his message out there.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #59
100. How do you figure that? - Kucinich treated like a rock star in Troy campaign stop
Kucinich treated like a rock star in Troy campaign stop

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2008011...

anuary 10, 2008

BY KATHLEEN GRAY

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

With presidential candidates largely absent from Michigan in the days leading to Tuesdays primary, even a second-tier candidate generates a lot of excitement in the state.

U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich might not be doing very well in voting so far in Iowa and New Hampshire, but tonight in Troy he attracted a standing room-only crowd of more than 300 people at the Troy Democratic Club meeting.

They treated him like a rock star, screaming in adoration and repeatedly giving him standing ovations when he said he would call for the removal of all troops from Iraq within three months of taking office, and advocated impeaching vice president Dick Cheney and President George W. Bush and charging them with crimes after they leave office.

America has been pursuing a strategy that has taken us down a very dark path, he said. "Im the only candidate running for President of the United States who voted against the war.

Kucinich is one of only four Democrats who will appear on Tuesdays ballot, along with Sen. Hillary Clinton, former U.S. Rep. Mike Gravel and Sen. Christopher Dodd, who dropped out of the race last week.

And he will be the only candidate to make any appearances in Michigan. He is scheduled to appear at four more campaign events in the state through Monday.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #100
129. Great. 300 of his die-hard fans. That's gonna win an election.
You Dennisbots don't seem to get it.

YOU love him. YOU think he's the cat's meow.

Mainstream America (you know, the people you like to think of as "sheeple") think Dennis is a nutcase on the far left fringe. He hasn't been able to change that perception. He's still polling at 1 or 2%. He's not raising much money. He's not getting his message out. And you think it's ALL the mainstream media's fault.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. That's just one event, silly!!


Dennis is booked until the the end of January!

Calender of Events - January 2008
http://www.dennis4president.com/index.php?option=com_jc...

Viggo Mortensen Campaigns with Dennis in NH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvMl_Kie-is

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. Maybe Dennis can be e-elected as our Internet President.
Someone else will, obviously, be elected as the REAL President in a REAL election (one in which you can't refresh your browser and vote again and again and again and again).

Hey, I have respect for you Dennisbots. You're extremely passionate about your guy--fanatical, actually. I don't have that kind of passion about anyone. And no one that is likely to win is as ideologically pure as Dennis.

But you're living in some sort of alternate universe if you think Dennis Kucinich is ever going to be the Democratic nominee, much less President of the United States of America.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. My name is Breeze and I'm against the war in Iraq and NO war with Iran
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 12:52 PM by Breeze54
Aren't you? :shrug:

"I don't have that kind of passion about anyone."
That's pretty sad and you'll vote for "your" candidate anyway. Not to bright, I have to say.

The candidates running voted for war and continue to fund it except Obama and he has voted 3 times
to fund the war and he's talking about pre-emptive strikes not being off the table towards Iran!!

And you call people supporting a peace candidate fanatical?

Do you hear yourself?

* co and congress have been waging a war based on lies for 5 years and I'm the crazy one?





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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. "And you call people supporting a peace candidate fanatical?"
You're definitely fanatical if you think Dennis will win. Anything. He won't win a single primary.

Reality sucks. I'm sorry.

You'll get used to it.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. My, my; you do think awfully highly of yourself. Why?
Your condescending remarks don't bother me but your lack of enthusiasm for your country's well being does.

You admitted you are so apathetic, you pretty much don't care who gets elected.

And then people wonder why this country's in the mess it's in.

Do you actually think this is my first election? :rofl:

I'll bet it's yours though. So sad.

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #142
148. Write me back when Dennis wins something real.
Enjoy your alternate universe.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #148
157. I guess that congressional seat he sits in was a birthday gift. n/t
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #157
160. I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing Dennis' PRESIDENTIAL campaign.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I wasn't referring to Joe SixPack but my own impression
Paul is a walking disaster.
Kuc has good ideas but can't execute worth a damn
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Because he's outside the mainstream and (gasp!) "Too liberal".
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Are you talking about DU or the nation as a whole?
Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Smith_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. both.
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. because he's "my way or the highway"
and he's ineffective.

So if you want principle instead of results, Kuc is great. If you want results, Kuc is not a choice.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. He would lose in a 49 state wipeout
He's Mondale, McGovern and Dukakis (who "only" lost 40 states) all wrapped up into one.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. What state do you think he'd carry?
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:37 PM
Original message
The State of Confusion. nt
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. It doesn't matter what the people want
if the media pretends he doesn't exist.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. To some degree.
But how many debates has Dennis Kucinich participated in? 6? 8? 10? More?

I'll grant you he didn't get as much camera time as Clinton, Obama or Edwards, but he got plenty.

The American electorate had the chance to size him up (so to speak). He still polls at a couple paltry percentage points.

Do you think he's going to miraculously catch fire now that the primaries have started?
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
158. Uh no he didn't get plenty.
When Clinton gets 20 minutes to speak and Obama gets 15 minutes to speak and then Edwards gets 15 minutes to speak what sort of chance does an electorate have of sizing Kucinich up when he only gets about 5 minutes to explain his entire campaign?
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. because he's a goof ball
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tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
88. wow that's always been my wording exactly!
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 02:05 AM by tandem5
of course so am I... sigh
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because the guy down the street could say what Kucinich does
but that doesn't qualify him to be president. But you go ahead and imagine that everyone else is base and immoral while Kucinich supporters are true and virtuous if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect the rest of us to be impressed.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
35. I see this question so very often. It seems most of us understand
the answer.

The answer lies in Life is not fair. Dennis Kucinich is smart can be
charming, very caring uncerstands politics as well as anyone. has
Integrity. articulate and quick on his feet. He is committed to principle
of democracy. Knowdegeable of Issues. Courage of his convictions.

Life is not fair. We live in an age of Television. Every person is
not born with features which come off well on TV. He is very short
and thin, which at his real age--he still looks youthful. This does
not provide him with the gravitas expected in Television Leaders.
Life is not fair.

It is like the kid who wants to on ist string on ball team. Lacks
physical coordination. Life is not fair.
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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
36. Because Presidents are more than Ideas
A president can inspire and cajole, even try and intimidate, but essentially they have no legislative power other than to accept or deny what congress sends to them. Dennis is a maverick, or if you prefer, an ideologue. Although he says lots of things I agree with, he does so as a scold and without regard for practicality--two things guaranteed to ensure that his ideas as president would not get implemented.
For instance, I agree that we need single-payer government run health care. We also need to find a way to get there that isn't as disruptive and potentially counterproductive as a sudden switch would be. I hate the health insurance industry, but I do understand that millions of good people are working in and for that industry and unless you have a transition plan, you're risking an awful lot of people's security. I don't see DK agreeing that it must be implemented in steps or in compromised fashion.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
38. Bottom line? People don't understand how primaries work
We do NOT vote for candidates in the primaries. We elect DELEGATES. Kucinich delegates would vote for a platform that would more accurately reflect the views of the majority of the American people.

That's why DUers should support him, even if one of the three anointed will in fact get the nod.

But people don't get that. They see the candidate and look no further.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. Hmmm
I think it's because the media paints him as a kook and marginalizes his views. If he were given equal time I'm sure he would fare a lot better in these primaries. (not saying he would win or anything, just that he would have a strong showing.)
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. because the oligarchy and their corporations don't want him or his ideas
I'm frankly amazed that he is still alive
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. Oh, a great many reasons, I suppose.
1) Not everyone agrees with you that he has the right idea. Accept this.

2) Many people, like me, have zero faith in his ability to actually *implement* any of his ideas if elected. He is not exactly a leader in the House. He has few allies. He has little to point to in terms of a track record when it comes to tangible achievements. He is fairly weak in those terms.

3) He has no actual campaign apparatus to speak of - no national or state-level organizations. He does not have a large pool of donors or an adequate fundraising network, nor has he attempted to build one.

4) He is not, shall we say, a particularly charismatic or engaging individual as viewed by most people. He is not able to articulate his ideas in a way that would convince anyone who doesn't already agree with him.

5) He has never proven himself in a state-wide campaign. There is a reason the House is not renowned as a source for Presidential candidates.

5) He needs to learn to dress and improve his appearance. Someone, anyone, please help this man with his wardrobe.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #48
82. I agree with numbers 1 through 5. Unless those change, 6 is irrelevant
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 01:18 AM by onenote
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #48
86. [More]
7) During his tenure as Cleveland's mayor, he proved to be prone to cronyism as bad as (if not worse than) Chimpy.

8) Also during his tenure as Cleveland's mayor, he proved to be extraordinarily inflexible and autocratic, much like Chimpy.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. He's too short to be President.
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 05:49 PM by smalll
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
53. Because they don't see him as the obvious choice that you do
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
57. They obey the teevee rather than voting in their best interests.
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libbygurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
60. Seems to be too uncompromising in his positions, and more of an ideologue.
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:55 PM by libbygurl
He just strikes me as too much of a rigid-minded fellow whose arrogance about his rightness surfaced in the Las Vegas debate and really turned me off. And I agree with many of his ideas, too. If he's going to alienate people who agree with him, how's he going to persuade anyone else who doesn't to get anything passed?


*Edited for spelling/grammar corrections.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
62. Zero chance of winning.
I'm not voting for SAINT - I'm voting for someone to fight a political battle.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
66. Because he tells the truth and isn't good looking enough
Which kinda sometimes makes me blame America. (I know that's the medias fault to a big degree but still..Bush and Cheney deserve to be impeached-he's the only one to bring it up-the country dies before our eyes and he's not PRETTY enough-and he's too TRUTHFUL-because bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahde fucking bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh people in this country might have to look at their ugly ass faces in the mirror and realize yeah, Mr. America I am an enabler-I am the REASON fascism came to town)

I'm channeling some Bruce Springsteen there. Your own worst enemy has come to town.

It's us. Our fear. Our letting things go. Our not being in the streets risking our very lives to have a real open government and not a one paid for by war, made by war, and dying by war.
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
71. Not willing to adapt ideas
this will lead to nothing being accomplished. Other are:

very poorly dressed
not telegenic
holier than though attitude
department of the peace

Why should I waste my time supporting somebody that has no chance. Why should I waste my time supporting someone who doesn't put the fundraising, grass roots, and organizational effort that it takes to be a serious contender?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
72. I'm going to try to give an honest answer
I think many, perhaps even most, people agree with his stance on things. I know I do.

I dare say that if a blind 'taste test' of the candidates were done, Dennis would be the most widely liked, hands down.

But he's ...... I know no delicate way to say this ..... goofy looking and goofy sounding. And that leads many with even a modicum of pragmatism to avoid overtly supporting him. So they go with their second choices.

I'm one of those people.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Well if
Your one of those people that care about how you look more than your outlook that makes sense.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Actually, you're dead wrong with your snarky assumption.
I'm one of those people who want to win.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. No snark intended my friend
We just see things differently.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #78
116. We see things differently? Do tell.
How can we 'see things differently' when you say I am an Obama supporter and I say I am not. In fact, I am unabashedly **UN**committed to a candidate.

So don't say we see things differently. You can have your opinion of me, but you can not change the underlying facts.

Now ..... what were you saying about how we see things differently?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #72
84. I remember the first time I was called a "ni___r-lover" ...
... and I've never once looked back and felt I should change who I associate with or vote for because OTHERS don't ... because of what they look like or what color they are or what religion they are.

I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for those who'd not vote for a man in a wheelchair (FDR) or a gaunt, sallow man (Lincoln) or any other appearance fetish or bigotry. I'm responsible for MY choices and nobody else's.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #84
123. There are, indeed, thjose who vote - or don't vote - for a candidate for a variety of stupid reasons
In fact, I bet there's more of them than we know, depending on the issue.

In this cycle, how many will not vote for Obama because of race? How many will not vote for Clinton because of gender? Damned few, if any, would ever admit that, but it will happen.

The most common reason to vote or not to vote for someone is party affiliation.

And, as you point out, this is hardly a new phenomenon. I can not imagine how FDR's people managed to keep his condition hidden. Of course, that was a different time and it could never happen today ...... or could it?
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
73. You can always tell who the neocon supporters are here.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
75. because he's not "TV friendly"
and doesn't resemble a statuesque Sears catalog model.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
89. Because he is nuts! (nt)
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
91. Watch how much success he has with his recount and impeachment and then ask me
People like politicians who are effective as well as having good ideas.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
92. Because immediately pulling out of our trade agreements would be a fucking disaster
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 02:20 AM by Hippo_Tron
I'm all for re-considering our trade agreements so that they are more environmental and labor friendly. Rashly ending the ones that we have in the meantime would cause a huge financial crisis.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
93. Sadly, the main reason more people don't support him is looks.
I'm talking in the general populace. People say they don't want superficiality in politics, that they're sick of slick, polished candidates who say what they want to hear, but then they elect them anyway. That's Mitt Romney's entire campaign, a walking hairstyle who changes his position whenever the wind shifts (his latest-'I'm for change!'?) The stuff that has been said about Dennis, and his wife, has been really viscous and unfair, and, par for the course.

That's before you even get to his ideas, which some are great and revolutionary and needed, and some are not. Which one is which, depends on you POV. I think a Dept. of Peace is a great idea. I'm not so enthused about his plan to create more jobs by expanding public works-that would be a band-aid, at best, to our economy. His gun control views turn me off as well.

BUT, realize this. For all those screaming he would be too radical, we are living under the most radical administration of the modern era. The term 'radical' isn't often used for the right, but it should be, because every single department in our government has been trashed.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
94. 3 decades of rightward propaganda/corporate "values" = true liberals appear out of touch
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
95. People want change. They don't want Kucinich.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 08:23 AM by robcon
He would be a disaster as president, and he is the only Dem I would not vote for in the GE.

His Dept of Peace proposal, for example, is ultra-stupid and naive. It's hard to imagine such a person as president.

People vote for PEOPLE they believe in, not just platforms or policies. I think Kucinich is an awful candidate, and would be an awful president.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. If they want change, then they should vote for Kucinich...the rest will be
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 09:04 AM by Breeze54
a version of the same shit we have now... different day.

Same wars, same health insurance issues, same poverty, same crime, same economy, same energy issues....

Nothing will change.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #101
117. It's funny - you ACTUALLY believe Kucinich can get legislation passed.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 11:17 AM by robcon
He's been a "the good is the enemy of the perfect" legislator so far, as his voting record shows. NOW, you think he can get things done in a Congress that requires compromise???

I think not. I think you're dreaming that Kucinich could change anything.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. Kucinich 2008 !!
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. He can't sign legislation that Congress has not passed.
He doesn't have the skills/experience to hammer out legislation - he's been a loner most of his time in Congress. His time as mayor of Cleveand, when he couldn't get anything done, is famous for logjams.

What "change" has he been able to accomplish in Congress - what legislation has his fingerprints on it?
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. 15 yrs. later, he was elected to the Ohio Senate - Because he was right.
Mayor of Cleveland and Muni-Light

http://www.dennis4president.com/about-dennis /

He was elected mayor of Cleveland in 1977 on the promise to save the citys municipally-owned electric system which offered customers significantly lower rates than the private utility. A year later, Clevelands banks demanded that he sell the citys 70 year-old municipally-owned electric system to its private competitor (in which the banks had a financial interest) as a precondition of extending credit to the city.

The attempted political blackmail failed as did several assassination attempts. He remembered his parents counting out coins on the dresser and refused to sell the peoples power. In an incident unprecedented in modern American politics, the Cleveland banks plunged the city into default for a mere $15 million despite being offered triple collateral to protect the loan.

The principled stand destroyed his political career. He lost his reelection bid. He was demonized as the mayor who threw Cleveland into default. Fifteen years later, the citizens of Cleveland - recognizing he had saved them hundreds of millions of dollars in municipal power bills and also forced the private utility to keep bills low to compete voted him into the Ohio Senate. His campaign signs featured a light bulb and the expression Because he was right. In 1998 the Cleveland City Council honored Dennis for ..having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the citys municipal electric system.


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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. Thanks for the research.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 11:36 AM by robcon
I agree - he was an assclown when he was mayor.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Rise up and be brave


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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
96. Because the media tells them
that he is a wacky extremist, or other similar stuff.

The media RUNS this country; MANY people really want change.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. People are quite malleable, easy to manipulate via the power of suggestion
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. Suggestion?
If that's ALL they're told, its much more than mere suggestion.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #102
118. It's a psych term for a particular phenomenon
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
103. After this thread, I have to add another reason.
Because his supporters are such superior-acting snobs, who will tell you that if you don't support Kucinich, it's because you've swallowed the MSM's story and you're too busy watching your TV and buying stuff to actually BE SMART ENOUGH to support Kucinich. His supporters enjoy telling people that they picked the "wrong" candidate because they just aren't smart/politically aware enough. In short, his supporters are obnoxious closed-minded insulting little twits. Never could we just have another opinion, no, of course not, we have to be WRONG for not supporting him. Well, guess what? YOU WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER WIN WITH KUCINICH. HE WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER BE THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Suck on THAT.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. That is bullshit. You're the one being an obnoxious, close minded insulting twit.
Wow. Don't you see the irony in your post, as you insult DK supporters? Your post was nothing but insults and invective. I tend to agree with the OP that I think more people would support DK if they only knew what he stood for. I've had this discussion with my mom and with a Republican friend in just this past week when both asked me "Well, who do you think is the best candidate?" (Both assumed that since I'm an outspoken Democrat that for some reason I was going to vote for Clinton). I always find myself prefacing it with "Well, it's too bad more people won't read DK's positions, because I think he'd run away with it if they did." And I believe that. Read his positions and compare them to your favorite candidate. I promise you, he'd win hands down...he lives and breaths the stuff we talk about on DU every day, while none of the other candidates even come close.

That said, I think the biggest thing hurting DK is the shallowness and pettiness of the American voter: Dennis is funny looking, he's short, he's got big ears, he's clothes don't fit right...in short, he's just not "presidential" looking. LOOKING. That's what we care about in the United States. DK reminds us all of the dweeb who always got picked last for the dodge ball team. And face it, no one ever picked the head of the Math Club as team captain.

.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. Read the thread. The only people being insulting and obnoxious are DK's supporters.
It was this way in 04 too. More-liberal-than-thou assholes.

And I don't agree about his positions. He's flip-flopped on the most important issue to me (choice), his trade ideas are a disaster in the making, and he hasn't passed any resolutions in congress - he wouldn't get SHIT done as president. He's also got terrible ideas about domestic issues and is completely rigid about implementing them.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Oh, yes...your post was like flowers and candy!
Thank you so much. Please sir, may I have another?

:eyes:

Look, I don't disagree with you on the fact that he wouldn't get shit done as President. He's not an Alpha Male. That was a large part of my post...Americans don't elect the Math Club president. We go for looks and celebrity. DK has neither.

.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar.
Yeah, he had charisma too. As the representative for our country world-wide, it's important that the president is charismatic and comes off as an important man. I don't think that's shallow. It's reality - a place most DK supporters don't seem to live.

And if you read through the thread, yeah, my comment was insulting, but there's only so many times I can be told I don't support DK because I'm too stupid to do my research and not swallow the MSM's line before I get pissed off.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Again, I don't disagree with you; it is a shame that we have to settle
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 10:03 AM by Atman
Clinton had charisma in spades, he was tall and handsome (or so some say), he was a great speaker, he was excellent at articulating his ideas. DK has the ideas, but nothing else. And you're absolutely correct, we need strong alpha-male (or female) types to square off against other world leaders. Get it? I'm not calling you "too stupid," I'm saying that if you simply read his position paper without having any idea which candidate wrote it, you would most likely choose DK. Seriously...have you read Obama's or Clinton's? Compare 'em to DK's. DK espouses virtually everything DUers cry out for, while the others all have some serious problems, imho. For instance, Hillary Clinton's war stance, Obama's view of coal as a "green fuel," etc. I'm not campaigning for DK, and I know he has no chance in hell of EVER getting the Dem nomination.

But the OP asked "why don't more people support Kucinich." Do you REALLY believe that more people in America don't support him because you find his supporters on DU insulting? Really? I was just trying to answer the question honestly.
.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. I thought the question was more directed to why don't more DUer's support him.
And, like the Obama supporters, I think it's likely that some of DK's supporters have turned other DUers off to their candidate. But anyway.

As for his positions, I have read them. I agree with some, and strongly disagree with others. I do not believe in or respect the concept of a department of peace. I am pro-death penalty (I realize I am against the majority of DUers there). I think his trade ideas would be bad for this country. I think he is too rigid when it comes to how he would implement his ideas - you cannot just tell millions of people who work in the insurance industry that tomorrow they're out of a job, not without throwing the economy into chaos. And I don't trust his position on choice or stem cell research, as he only decided he was pro a little while before he ran in 04.

And just by "feel", which is so denigrated amongst DUers that I hate to even include it (although it's probably the #1 reason people pull the lever for whom they pull it, in the end), he's too "woo woo" as someone below said. I can't get with people who are all new-age crystal "the desert is a spiritual center of energy" type stuff. I'm a pragmatist. DK does not seem like one to me. He's too out there.

That's all. :shrug:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Fair enough.
There. Now you've articulated why you don't like him, honestly, without trying to pin it all on DUers. Apparently, contrary to your original response it is NOT DUers attitudes that cause you to dislike DK. You actually dislike his positions. You could have stated that first!

.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. I did, up above.
I just added the second post to be snarky. :D
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elaineb Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #106
128. I've seen you on a number of threads trashing Kucinich
And yet, you won't see me on any threads trashing any other candidates. I tend to only come out of lurking to post the occasional defense of Kucinich on threads like this that are quickly fouled up by negative smears against Kucinich and his supporters.

So I guess we only see what we want to see, huh? You see lots of "insulting and obnoxious" Kucinich supporters, and I see nothing but "insulting and obnoxious" Kucinich haters. Funny how that works. Yet I am not on the threads regarding other candidates making negative statements about them, but YOU are. So which of the two of us has the right to complain about "insulting and obnoxious" candidate supporters...you or me? Oh, wait a minute...now you're probably going to accuse me of being "holier-than-thou". Well, guess what? Hypocrites like yourself shouldn't point out the failings of others before correcting their own.

Now on to the meat of your post:

It was this way in 04 too. More-liberal-than-thou assholes.

And I don't agree about his positions. He's flip-flopped on the most important issue to me (choice), his trade ideas are a disaster in the making, and he hasn't passed any resolutions in congress - he wouldn't get SHIT done as president. He's also got terrible ideas about domestic issues and is completely rigid about implementing them.


Immediately after insulting a group by calling them "More-liberal-than-thou assholes" (real nice, by the way!), you state that you don't agree with Kucinich's positions, one of which is choice, the most important issue to you. I sense from your post the same "more-liberal-than-thou" superiority that you decry in others, because this and his trade ideas are the only two specific issues on which you apparently disagree with him. Choice, an issue on which you and Kucinich currently have the same opinion (ironic?), is curiously the single issue that comes up time and again on threads where a Kucinich-hater actually stands up and states specifically on which issues he/she disagrees with Kucinich. In other words, if someone such as yourself finds "holier-than-thou" progressives to be an annoyance, I certainly hope you're not faulting Kucinich for perhaps the only position that once didn't hew to a traditional Democratic viewpoint, and which on which he has reconsidered his thinking anyway (and quite plausibly, IMO, if one reads the statements on the evolution of his thinking).

To continue dissecting this particular post (I won't touch your other posts; it would take me all day): You state that "his trade ideas are a disaster in the making". I take it you're gung ho for free trade, which is a perfectly valid position, but it would be helpful for those who are undecided about Kucinich or the other candidates for you to state specifically how Kucinich's ideas would be a "disaster" and how the trade ideas of the other candidates would be better for the US. It shouldn't be hard to do for someone like you who obviously considers this an important issue.

Next, you state that "he hasn't passed any resolutions in congress - he wouldn't get SHIT done as president." Again, if you find it a valuable use of time to post a negative opinion about a candidate on DU, I would think it would be of even greater value to you (in your attempt to warn others off of voting for Kucinich) to compare and contrast the type of resolutions that the other candidates have successfully gotten passed. I always find it bizarre that this kind of statement, which I've heard over and over, is supposed to be an indictment against Kucinich for creating the type of resolutions which most of DU would agree with, rather than a criticism of the other Democratic Congresspersons who won't stand with him on those resolutions.

Finally, I hear a lot of other Kucinich-bashers complaining about his "rigidity", as you just did, but isn't that what the American public seems to want in their representatives? I know I do. If my representative holds the same positions I do, then I want him/her to fight to get them implemented with every ounce of strength and fiber of being. Compromise should be saved for the times when your opponent is just as implacable and relentless as you, and I have no doubt Kucinich would be a compromiser at such a time if need be. Trouble is, our side almost never matches the implacability and resolution of the other side, because certain Democrats argue against the wisdom of doing so, time and time again. It's time to stop that sh*t.

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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
104. Because he's batshit crazy
I have no tolerance anymore for woo-woo bullshit (talking to god like * counts in with this crap). He's a flip-flopper (he's anti-choice for a gazillion years, only pro-choice for the last 3 years). He's ineffectual (how many pieces of legislation has he authored that have been passed?).

That's all he is, ideas. He sounds like a high school student council candidate "Everyday will be pizza day if I'm elected council president! No more homework! Naptime for everyone!!". It's hokey rah-rah tells us what we want to hear bullshit that would never come to fruition if he were elected.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #104
122. PEACE....


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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #122
146. I can do pictures!
See?







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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
108. slavophobia
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
109. I support his efforts and I admire him greatly, but
with the Ron Paul gaffe, he lost my support for his presidential bid. Having said that, I am a great supporter and admirer of his efforts as a Congressman.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
127. Because he runs a poor campaign, organizationally
He got out organized by Obama. He should be the innovative one, he should be the one organizing and mobilizing students on college campuses and tapping into their youthful idealism. But he isn't.

In Michigan, he is only still on the ballot because his campaign botched the paperwork to withdraw. They handed it in late, and it wasn't notarized.

I respect his ideas and his willingness to speak out, particularly on the war and on health care, but it is just hard to take his campaign seriously when it is so poorly run.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. It's the M$M doing the shutting out.
Melissa Etheridge speaks out for Dennis Kucinich

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-emin/melissa-ethe...

Posted January 5, 2008 | 10:28 PM (EST)
Read More: Kucinich, Melissa Etheridge, New Hampshire Debate., Breaking Politics News

stumbleupon :Melissa Etheridge speaks out for Dennis Kucinich
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Melissa Etheridge, speaking from California on Saturday, January 5th was asked what she thought of Dennis Kucinich being shut out of the ABC News/Facebook Democratic Debate this evening in New Hampshire, just days away from the primary election.

In a voice that rang clear as a bell she enunciated a list of her concerns about what is happening to this country's democracy. What struck this interviewer the most about her comments was how impassioned she was about how corporate control has shut out sincere political discourse. As she said, "The consequences of this action is we see infomercials rather than a debate. The system is infected and pressing down on those who are progressives. Look what they did in Iowa," she said when I asked her about Dennis Kucinich in New Hampshire.

"I have been reading definitions of fascism and the ways in which the corporations are excluding those who threaten their industries--health care, war machines--is a good definition of how fascism works.They don't want to let anyone who will jeopardize their interests gain any visibility. This is an important election, they will be manipulating us for their own ends. They have been at it for the last 8 years with the Bush administration." And then she added, "It was the Clinton administration that first opened the door to these corporate interests."

------------

www.youtube.com/user/Kucinich2008
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. No, it can't all be blamed on the media.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 12:44 PM by Radical Activist
Yes, the media is biased against Kuinich but part of that is his own fault. His biggest obstacles are of his own creation. Those in the media see what a poor campaign he's running so they don't take him seriously. Its a fair assessment.

Obama has a progressive record too but he is a better fundraiser, better organizer and is much better at getting good press. Those are political skills that Dennis doesn't have.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. No it's not a fair assessment at all! They've been shutting him out.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 01:00 PM by Breeze54
Forget Obama...he'll be doing what bush did -> pre-emptive strikes on Iran are not off the table.

But he won't win the election anyway. The balls already in play...

PS. The college kids Obama was expecting never showed either, in NH.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Dennis has had a few opportunities to break through
but he blows it every time. He did last time too.

I know Obama's comments about Iran got blown out of proportion. Personally, I don't want a President who will sit and do nothing while Iran gets the bomb.

I think you're right that Obama would have won New Hampshire if the primary were held two weeks later when school is back in session. He does very well among college students.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. DK has been
on TV and the Radio in multiple interviews all last month and this month, etc.

It's ABC/Disney and that Iowa Desmoines Times (?) that have shut him out.

Yeah, bad break for Obama. So close but not quite.

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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. Maybe, but it wasn't the MSM that made him never even email me
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 12:43 PM by Strawman
after sending him $50 last year.

You don't necessarily need the MSM to organize on college campuses either.

And there is this thing called the internet. Worked out pretty well for Ron Paul. I can stand Ron Paul but my point is he's done a better job at being competitive.

In my opinion, DK needs to spend less time whining about being left out by the MSM and more time on figuring out how to mobilize supporters given the fact that he is gonna be left out by the MSM. He needed to out organize the others on college campuses and out fundraise the others among the netroots. Then they'd have to take notice.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. Wah! You lost your e-mail ! - He has plenty of organizers and supporters!
He is booked until the end of Jan. with appearances

and TV & Radio interviews all across the country.

The M$M is doing their usual corporate dirty work

and shutting him out but they're also being sued for it. ;)
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mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #138
147. Hell, he couldn't even manage to get on my state's primary ballot
He missed the deadline. But I'm sure it's someone else's fault, it always in in DK's case. :eyes:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. Based on the way he runs a campaign
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 12:39 PM by Radical Activist
I'm sure he would run the nation into the ground if he were ever President.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #133
144. If I thought this all was best understood as purely being an exercise in expressive individualism
I'd (still) support him. But it's not. A political campaign is a collective effort. It makes more sense to be a part of a mass movement that has a chance to actually achieve some measure of progressive change (like Obama's campaign) than it does to feel the satisfaction of expressing more perfect ideas for the pure sake of expressing them. (I'm not sure I put that very coherently) Making change happen requires administrative and organizational skill too. Ideas matter, for sure, and they can inspire people to action, but it takes more than just the sheer power of superior ideas and rhetoric.

I go back and forth on this. On one side I think all I can do is speak for myself and signal my preferences based on this issues, and that is my job as a citizen, but when I think about how a social movement might happen that actually might make a difference in this country, I don't want to be on the sidelines because the agent isn't "pure" enough. I guess it all boils down to how does one best make a difference in the context of these campaigns. My sense is Obama could make a difference in a more direct, immediate manner because his campaign seems to have the is mobilizing and energizing people. There is a momentum, an upside that is missing from DK's campaign.

I live in MI where the primary is a complete fiasco. I was considering still voting for DK in MI over uncommitted because all my vote will do is maybe help send one of this or that candidate's supporters to the convention. It will have no influence on the nomination or the horserace coverage of the media that influences the money/momentum primary that keeps these campaigns going. But now that DK has actively campaigned in MI in violation of the DNC rules (after botching his effort to get off the ballot) odds are his delegates will not be seated, and I can't even help send a progressive delegate to Denver. Not like that matters much either, since conventions nowadays are staged and everything will be long since decided by then with no imput from MI Democrats, but I was thinking maybe a DK delegate would raise a little more hell.

My guess is that his delegates won't get seated because 1)he broke the rules after bungling trying to get out altogether and 2) the party elites in MI don't really want his delegates to go. It's not like they're going to be people that they owe any favors to. He'll protest about how he was excluded, and like always, he'll be right about them being unfair, but he'll only telling the part of the story and leaving out the role of his own mistakes.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
152. Various reasons, but..
I assume the most dominant reason is that the US is simply not as progressive as some of us here at DU would like to believe.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
153. I do- "universal single-payer healthcare"
I plan to vote for him in the CA primary. Ok, I am a single-issue voter on this subject, but we have been through it all: job loss, no insurance, spend-down for public health assistance, Chapter 7 bankruptcy, and the good possibility of having to stay poor to qualify for healthcare.

Oh, and watching someone slowly die from multiple organ failure... from diabetes... which if there had been universal single-payer healthcare, would have been diagnosed in time... and the damage mitigated. How many more will die of easily treatable problems, for lack of proper early treatment?
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. I'm doing the same in MA!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
154. Lots of reasons
and a couple of them actually pertain to substantive weaknesses, but most of them are factors that he has no control over - which is sorta a problem in and of itself. If he can be marginalized so easily, how effective would he be as a President?

I, personally, would like to find out if getting a groundswell of grassroots support would make him more legit in the public eye, but it's not going to happen. He just can't break the 2% threshhold.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
156. the "electibility" crap
People won't vote for him because others won't vote for him. It's sad and disgusting but even DUers do it. I voted for him last time and I'll vote for him again because I don't base my vote on pandering to what fucking idiots think.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
159. Well if anything, this thread certainly provided some answers for us.
According to this thread, these are the reasons why nobody will vote for Dennis Kucinich:

1. Nobody will vote for Dennis because nobody will vote for him. :eyes:
2. He's too head strong. It's his way or the highway. You know like SCHIP and impeachment. Who the hell wants those things?
3. He saw an unidentified flying object once, adding his name to the millions who have.
4. He believes in promoting peace... :crazy:
5. Because he said (in an effort to reach across the divide and bring anti-war republicans) he'd consider Ron Paul as his running mate.
6. He's not charismatic enough. You need to have good vocal range and be able to lie convincingly to rule effectively I guess.
7. He's not a snappy dresser. He's ugly and sounds weird. We need the shallow vote. :puke:
8. He's ineffectual. No real legislation passed with his name on it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with congressional repubs and other democrats "working together" like on that wonderful FISA bill.
9. His organization is poorly run and short staffed. Hmm, I wonder if it's because everybody was already told he was unelectable and left for other campaigns. Nah, it's all his fault.


Well that's pretty much it. But it really all boils down to the fact nobody will vote for him because nobody will vote for him....amazing.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #159
161. You forgot: 10. People think he's a kook.
Happy to help out.
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Indi Guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
162. The (transnational corporation owned ) MSM finds Kucinich to be too much of a true Democrat...
...so they deny him the bright spotlight.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
163. I don't support him because he is delusional.
He is running for the WH ..there is zero chance he will win.

Nader was attacked on DU for being a spoiler because he stayed in an election he could not win, why is Kucinich different ?
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
164. I don't support him because he said that he would implement change through Executive Orders.
That's wrong on the scary end of way wrong. He didn't do Cleveland any good and I really hope he never rises beyond the power of one of the HR. He's a power-mad nutter.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
165. Because he has absolutely no chance of ever being elected (nt)
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Indi Guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
166. K
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
167. Because the TV tells them not to.
If you vote for a man who doesn't even hunt, much less eat meat or start illegal wars, it might turn you gay. But you are allowed to watch footage of his wife, with the sound muted.
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