Obama, Hillary, and the Fragmentation of DU (an answer to "why vote 4 Obama")

[Blue State Bandit]

I have seen many posts lately asking why one supports this candidate or that candidate. Some are genuine, but many, it seems, are just houses on fire. This community is starting to look more like the foothills of Southern California and less like a forum for inter-party political discourse. So I decided that I needed to explain why I will not vote for Hillary Clinton, and why I feel many harbor such explosive feelings on this subject as of late.

My mind was made up to vote for Obama when Hillary's campaign proclaimed that as her first act as President, she would send Bush 41 and Clinton 42 to re-build the world's view of America that was destroyed by Bush 43. I almost lost my lunch when I heard this. (edit: campaign added)

This single moment in Hillary Clinton's campaign struck me with a troika -anger, fear, and utter disbelief- that I could never get over, short a medically-induced coma. How could this possibly be seen as "Change" other than my change of underwear?

Domestically, I don't see how she could have expected the father of George W. Bush to join Bill Clinton on a "BASH BUSH WORLD TOUR". What did she think would be the selling point that would get Bush Sr. to denounce his own son to the world? Thirty pieces of silver? Or, would she sell her political soul to the same people who covet our privacy, and lie us into war after meaningless war?

Prior to the Primary season, this forum was in near perfect harmony when the subject of accountability came to the floor. It was a rare bird who didn't foam at the mouth at the thought of a Bush administration official doing time. And if it was Bush or Cheney, I could see the saliva dripping down the comment list onto my desk below.

Today, it seems that DU has broken up into candidate oriented factions and nobody seems to understand each other. It's like someone dropped a Babylon bomb on the site. People, like ProgressiveByDesign, are leaving in frustration due to this fracturing. But I don't think that PBD and other Hillary Clinton backers understand how they are seen by the Obama/Edwards camps; colored by the close relationship Bill has fostered with GHWB.

IMO, support for Hillary is seen by many in the Obama camp as treachery; that she will sell out and nothing will change.


Then there is how the world will perceive our choices. In the days after Iowa, the world took notice. Never has the Iowa Caucus been the headline in so many international newspapers. I think the only country to have a negative opinion was India due to Obama's stand on outsourcing, but I maybe wrong. They call him the next Kennedy. Germany is going nuts over him. Most of all, he is not seen in the world as having anything to do with the policies that have taken America from Pin-Up to Pariah. Foreign policy experience means nothing to our current standing in the world if nobody trusts the messenger.

IMO, electing Hillary will be seen by the world as a marriage of two American political dynasties, and that we, the American people, have not "learned our lesson".

It is my hope that this explanation will help calm the waters; and maybe score some converts. But if you must flame, get it out here, and get it over with. Cry all you want, be it over questions about Diebold, or hair stylists, I’m still VOTING FO OBAMA!

(edit to reflect Hillary's Campaign, not Hillary)

[maddiejoan]

1. Uhm

>My mind was made up to vote for Obama when Hillary proclaimed that as her first act as President, she would send Bush 41 and Clinton 42 to re-build the world's view of America that was destroyed by Bush 43. I almost lost my lunch when I heard this.<

She never said this.

[Alexander]

3. Bill said it in South Carolina on December 17th.

“The first thing she intends to do is to send me and former President Bush and a number of other people around the world to tell them that America is open for business and cooperation again,”

[maddiejoan]

5. OP said "Hillary proclaimed" this

1) she did not

2) it would hardly be the first time ex-presidents were sent around the world on behalf of the country

3) the noticeble omission of sending #43 around the world was Bill's snarky way of saying Bush II will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

[aquart]

10. That was way too subtle for some here.

Lotta people cannot read nuance. Brain glitch or whatever, they can only take in the literal meaning of the words.

[maddiejoan]

13. sheeeeesh

wasn't lost on Poppy.

He got really miffed at Bill for that one too.

I thought it was a brilliant snark from Bill. Had me laughing all day --until I signed on to DU and saw how people didn't get it.

[Blue State Bandit]

4. My fault, it was Bill

Sorry I ment Hillary's Campaign (her husband)

“The first thing she intends to do is to send me and former President Bush and a number of other people around the world to tell them that America is open for business and cooperation again,” said Bill Clinton, who has accompanied the senior Bush on international humanitarian missions over the past several years.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/123107Parry.shtml


Post will be edited to reflect.

[maddiejoan]

8. like I say

the relevant portion is that junior WON'T be sent around the world.

there is a long standing traditional role of ex-presidents doing this kind of thing.

[Blue State Bandit]

14. The relevent points are...

1. who gave hime the idea?

2. do you really think the world sees mush diffrence between an old Bush and a young Bush?

3. do you think that anyone who believes the Bush family has scared America's image in the world would accept any such venture?

[maddiejoan]

18. Okay

1. It's hardly a new idea

2. yes

3. assuming you mean "scarred" and not "scared", many people (including Mr. Obama-He said so at the last Nevada debates.) still hold some regard for Poppy.
Now, personally, I think Poppy is a monster --but I've not had any problems with his little trips around the world so far --so why should I start having problems with them now?
I WOULD have a problem with Junior doing it.

I have no doubt as an Ex-President, Poppy will be sent around the world on a goodwill tour. So will Carter, That's what ex-Presidents do.
I also have no doubt that Junior WON'T be --as long as we have a Democrat in the Whitehouse.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Don't know if it will calm the waters or not

I will say that the flamefests have not changed my opinions of any of the candidates.

[Fresh_Start]

9. agree. but it sure as hell as fostered some strong feelings about their supporters

if you act like an idiot (even if its out of love for your candidate) you are still an idiot.

[MyNameGoesHere]

6. Well it doesn't take much does it?

You THOUGHT you heard HRC say it and that was all she wrote for you huh? I am glad i am not on your favorite sports team, you might drop me because i farted or something silly like that.

[Blue State Bandit]

17. I got my candidate, you have yours.

But if you took a knee at the one on forth down in a 3 point football game, you could bet on it.

[MyNameGoesHere]

20. Nope i have no candidate

they all suck and i will probably sit out this year.

[aquart]

7. "Treachery"? Is Obama ENTITLED to the nomination?

I guess he must be. How dare the supporters of other candidates become "roadblocks to history" as someone had the flaming brass balls to say after Iowa.

[russian33]

11. "electing Hillary will be seen by the world as a marriage of two American political dynasties"

imo, electing Hillary will be seen by the world, that FINALLY, years and years after countries like Great Britain, and India, and Germany, and and and many others, the beacon of democracy and equality, elected a woman president...but that's just imo

[Fresh_Start]

12. Clue: rebuilding America in the world is not a BASH BUSH tour

BASH BUSH would not rebuild any bridges increase any opinions.
Only changing policies will have that effect.

[Bucky]

15. Oh for God's sake, DU is not fragmenting.

Three weeks from now we'll have a presumptive nominee and this kvetch fest will dissipate. You should've seen the harumphy mass exodus of burned out board participants in 2004. A few eventually trickled back in and a few moved on to other places. But thru it all DU has continued to grow.

[tandem5]

16. but, this is an honest question now...

What would Obama change? I mean that literally - let's talk issues now.

I'm uneasy about voting for a candidate that defines himself by what he is not. So what is he? I'm familiar with some of his policy positions, but I don't see dramatic departures from the other candidates. Certainly it can't just be that he's a newcomer and thus he will bring a fresh perspective to Washington, right?

So I mean it - tell me some things you like about him from your view. I won't counter your points nor will I be hostile. I just want some added perspective.

[Blue State Bandit]

21. Heres one.

Drug courts. Curtailing the growing prison population by sending non-violent drug offenders to rehab insted of prison. This will serve three purposes in my mind.

1. alow prison populations to level off and reduce violence in the system.

2. reduce the recindancy rate that turns prisons into crime universities.

3. reduce the risk of radicalization of Islam within the prison system due to administrative inability to identify such trends due to over-population.

[tandem5]

24. ok what else? I appreciate anything you want to offer. nt

[Blue State Bandit]

25. A tougher stand on Pakistan, and a more fact based foreign policy.

Though it may be a bit late, it is the only proper course of action. We should have never gone into Iraq. If their was any country that should have been considered after Afghanistan, it should have been Pakistan. If we went in in '02, we would have had most of the world backing us, including India, who offered us basing after 9/11, and Iran, who provided essential Intel on Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in the wake of 9/11. Not to mention their attempts to begin diplomatic normalization under Mohammad Khatami.

The world sees America thru whom we vote for as president. If they don't trust our leader, then they won't trust us.

[Marrah_G]

19. "IMO, support for Hillary is seen by many in the Obama camp as treachery;"

That is a huge problem. We have primaries to all voice our opinions and make our choices. When one group start claiming the other is treacherous it divides the party and creates very nasty feelings among everyone. We have seen the result here and it is ugly.

[Blue State Bandit]

23. I'm in total agreement.

I'm just attempting to point out what I see as a major cause. I hope that we (the community) can dissagree without ripping out each others eyes.

[Marrah_G]

26. That is my hope also- the viciousness really makes me sad.

[RiverStone]

22. Good post and points!

IMO, electing Hillary will be seen by the world as a marriage of two American political dynasties, and that we, the American people, have not "learned our lesson".

Well said and very true.

Obama = change.
Hillary = status quo.

You made a wise choice. :hi:

[Pathwalker]

27. You're the one who claims Hillary was behind the IRON MY SHIRTS

stunt, in a thread in GD - P.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4026105&mesg_id=4026105

[JerseygirlCT]

28. I know I'm looking toward the general at all times

And I think it's unbelievably foolish of us to tear down any of our candidates like that. Make choices, have preferences, for sure. But there's no need to turn it into a gotcha hate fest toward the other candidates. The simple fact is that any one of ours is far better than anything the GOP has put forward.

So let's get one of them in the WH, shall we?