Lots of talk of sexism. What about the case of Dennis Kucinich?

[Bonobo]

He's not what you expect in a man.

He's small. He's no "alpha male" that's for damned sure!

An elf? A leprachaun? A laughing stock? And why?

He's short. S-H-O-R-T.

All this fucking whining about sexism but few can see what men face on an individual basis in this society. If this isn't sexism, or short-ism, or whatever, then I don't know shit.

But I do. And I know that this is a blind spot for most of you. It's truly invisible sexism. Men can't talk about it because they will be told they are whining or that they will be lectured about "institutional sexism" or some shit.

90% of DU would vote for DK based on his positions. But he gets no respect even here, let alone in the real world.

Sexism. It's not just for ladies anymore.

[jakem]

1. im short.

dennis is still funny.

[jakem]

2. the tea bag in the pocket is not helping him either...

and i like tea.

[TahitiNut]

3. Sorry. Men may not apply. The 'Y' chromasome makes a person "fair game."

:eyes:

[tritsofme]

4. Kucinich is my last choice.

With only Edwards ahead of him.

It has nothing to do with his stature or appearance.

[MercutioATC]

5. Short does not automatically make you elf-like

Dennis is elf-like

[TreasonousBastard]

6. It's the ears. n/t

[KoKo]

7. Well I'm a Kucinich supporter...but I know there's Male Sexism since my own Dad was 5/4 in height

and it bothered him his whole life. Had to have all his clothes altered...and always felt like the runt everywhere he went. He made up for it in some ways...but he felt handicapped for it.

Dennis has overcome his poverty background, height and large family with his schizophrenic brother who just died to become an esteemed Representative from Ohio after serving as Mayor and in State Senate...and yet the media ignores him as an "elf." They made fun of his stature and something about his haircuts.

Only Frat Boys and Fundie Christian Mavericks can make it these days. Harry Truman nor Jimmy Carter would have made the Height Cut...and probably most of our earlier Presidents...before TEE VEE noticed that stuff.

[laconicsax]

8. Sorry pal

I'm a white male shorter than Kucinich and have had to deal with overt and subtle discrimination, hazing, ridicule, etc. as a result, but being discriminated against because of height, no matter how petty it is, is far more innocuous than sexism.

[Bonobo]

10. It IS sexism because it is based on sterotypical ideas about men that objectify them.

[laconicsax]

29. You could only possibly be more wrong.

Sexism is discrimination based on a person's sex. Height discrimination is discrimination based on a person's height. Sexism is a big deal, height discrimination is not. Why?

What's the worst that will happen to a short man when he is discriminated against by height? He is ridiculed, laughed at, possibly paid less, maybe beat up in grade school.
What's the worst that will happen to a woman who is subject to sexism? She is sexually assaulted, beaten by her husband, statistically paid less, maybe fired from her job/denied employment, or killed.

Here's a relevant quote, "A man's greatest fear from a woman is that she will laugh at him; a woman's fear is that a man will kill her." -Margaret Drabble

[Bonobo]

32. Height discrimination "based on height" is actually based on the myth of the alpha male.

If a man is short,

He can be ridiculed, bullied, beaten, given a lower salary, have trouble finding a woman and have his life ruined as his self-image falls to shit.

This is not a competition based on which type of discrimination is worse. They are both bad and both based on unfair gender stereotypes.

[laconicsax]

38. That poor man

Oh wait...being a short man, poor me.

In principle, you're right about them being both bad. In reality, sexism is a serious problem, height discrimination is not. Putting height discrimination on the same level as sexism downplays the severity sexism as a serious issue and elevates height discrimination against men to an undeserving point.

Numbers anyone? Keep in mind this is just in the 'progressive' United States
-Three out of four women will be victims of a violent crime during their lifetime.
-Between 1974 and 1990, assaults against women ages 20-24 rose 50%, in the same period, assaults against men the same age fell 12%
-One in three women will be a victim of rape during her lifetime.
-A minority of all reported rapes result in an arrest.
-So much more to be found at:

http://www.who.int/gender/violence/en/
http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/
http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html
http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

But hey, maybe the effects of height discrimination against men, for whatever reason are equally bad as to the effects of sexism.

[Bonobo]

40. Apples meet oranges. How about stats for prison rape? Equally off the point. Or is it?

[laconicsax]

48. Oh, I get it. Violence against women isn't related to sexism.

I'd continue, but apparently I've entered "silly hyperbole land" and you're done, so have a nice day.

[eridani]

17. Maybe so, but it's the entire sexist worldview that the OP is talking about

Can we not get into whether gays or minorities or others have it better or worse? It's ALL bad!

[laconicsax]

30. Well, when sexism towards men

is equivalent in effect to sexism towards women, I'll take it seriously.

[Bonobo]

33. That's just silly. Both need to be solved for a solution. We don't live in a vacuum.

[laconicsax]

42. Apparently, you do.

It must be nice in your vacuum where all problems are in equal need of a solution. Would you regard murder and petty theft to be equal crimes? Are the issues of famine and "the supermarket's out of lettuce" also equal?

[Bonobo]

45. I think you have entered silly hyperbole land, so I will say goodnight.

[eridani]

35. It isn't, but it's an integral part of the whole package

It's ALL bad! Guess some of us Kucitizens are terminally wholistic.

[comradebillyboy]

9. Kucincih has always been a fringe candidate

and it has nothing to do with is appearance.

[Breeze54]

46. An ELECTED candidate!

;)

[rug]

11. But he's hung like a horse.

[jakem]

13. well, a miniature pony...

:hide:

[eridani]

20. I'm pretty sure that those who know don't say, and those who say don't know

Kucinich has said that he adheres to every religion, and a Taoist aphorism works best here.

[rug]

28. "Water that is too pure contains no fish"?

[eridani]

39. Some call candidates who ask for all of what most Americans want "too pure"

Others of us just call them "highballing negotiators." You know, like if you want a kitten, ask for a pony. If your baseline acceptable price for your used car is $3000, ask for $5000. If you hope you might accomplish 75% of your legislative agends, ask for 150%.

Knowing in advance that is isn't possible to get all of what you ask for, why are people stupid enough to NOT EVEN ASK in the first place?!?!?! And to applaud candidates who go along with this crappy strategy as "pragmatic"?

[maddiejoan]

12. agree with your post per Kucinich

but who said sexism was just for ladies?

[Bonobo]

14. Not me. Never me. ;)

[maddiejoan]

18. interesting point

as a transgendered woman (of short stature), I of course have gotten to see all sorts of sexism directed at me.

the sexism at men that you mention in your OP.

the sexism at women.

and of course the real down and dirty sexism directed at transexuals.

Trust me --I'm well aware of all sorts of sexism in our culture, and I know it when I see it.

[Bonobo]

21. Yup, I guess you have a unique perspective of seeing both sides.

Many women deny the sexism against men or are blind to it.

My opinion is that in a sexist society, of course it is against both sides.

Both sides need to change to create "equality" if there is any such thing.

[eridani]

22. Dang, girl, you;ve known it ALL

Expensive knowlege, and I hope we can all evolve beyond giving each other that kind of crap.

[maddiejoan]

delete dupe

[seriousstan]

15. Anyone old enough to remember him as Mayor of Cleveland Ohio knows it isn't about height.

It is about him. It always has been about him.

[Bonobo]

19. Nobody knows about that. It's Ohio for god's sake. A long time ago. Ohio.

[eridani]

25. Nope, it was about saving public power

Kucinich did it at the cost of his career, though he was at least recognized for this achievement 15 years later.

[undeterred]

16. I am a 5'8" female and I find him attractive.

If he weren't taken, I'd be interested. He is a wonderful man and he's adorable too. And I am voting for him besides.

[eridani]

26. I'd vote for him even if I thought he was ugly

He aays all the right things.

[Maine-ah]

23. at 4'11", this dem has no problem voting for Kucinich

I think the media is giving him a good fucking.

[Orangepeel]

24. it's the same old sexism that it always was

stereotypically male qualities: tall, strong, stoic, tough

If he doesn't have those qualities, he's not a "real" man and therefore not fit to be president. Do you think that it is coincidence that women are stereotypically shorter, weaker, more emotional, more sensitive?

Same song, second verse.

[superkia]

27. The difference is the media is trying to keep his message hidden.

If you look at the coverage of all of the candidates, Clinton has been on the television non stop. From the looks of DU, allot of people mimmick the MSM in what they say, feel and believe...its sick. Our country is being destroyed and too many are still happy with being little sheep in a herd headed to the slaughter house.

[morgan2]

31. as a fan of most of kucinich's views

I don't think his problem is his height. Its his refusal to be pragmatic. Even though I don't think this is true, he comes across as a space cadet. He talks about peace and happiness, and acts like if we just believe it'll be so. He brings up seeing a UFO in a debate, and doesn't see the need to clarify that he saw something in the air he didn't know what it was. He never said it was aliens, but gets laughed at because of his word choice. His problems are more about his style than his substance.

[eridani]

44. Jesus FAWKING keerist! Just keep doing the MSM's work for them for free, willya?

It was asshat Tim Russert or someone of that ilk who brought up the UFO. Kucinich exactly clarified that he didn't know what it was, and pointed out that Carter and Reagan also stated that they had had similar experience. You think that any of that shit would happen if LWV were still running debates? Lucky for Carter they were in 1976.

Look, pal. "Pragmatic" just happens to be asking for 150% of what you want, knowing that in doing that you might get 75% of it. Why is the utterly stupid tactic of never asking for anything significant even thought of as "pragmatic," let alone praised?

[morgan2]

58. pragmatic doesn't mean hopeless or compromising

it means willing to play the game a little bit to get your way. In his next interviews he should have been calling it a cheap shot and clarifying his position, he glossed over it and let it become a smear on him. I'll take Ralph Nader over Kucinich any day of the week.

[eridani]

60. What fawking "next interviews" are you talking about?

Kucinich has not gotten nearly enough attention so that people can even remember what he says about fair trade fercrissakes, let alone UFOs. Joking about it was the right approach I think, but few even got a chance to hear him say "What does it tell you about American politics that more people believe in UFOS than believe that Bush tells the truth about anything?"

[Breeze54]

50. You have never listened to him give a speech

Stop BSing everyone.

[morgan2]

59. Ive listened to him talk plenty of times

I even donated to his campaign in 2004, but he really is out of touch with how to inspire the American people. Give me Obama's attitude and Kucinich's values, and I'll give you a winning progressive candidate.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

34. It's VEGANISMISM.

[Swamp Rat]

36. Here ya go:

:D































:patriot: GEAUX KUCINICH!!! :patriot:

:kick:

[Bonobo]

37. Swamp Rat, that is art! Fucking beautiful! Do you have a website?

[Swamp Rat]

41. Thanks!!

www.swamp-rat.com

Thanks for the thread. Check out mine:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2608539&mesg_id=2608539

:patriot: GEAUX KUCINICH!!! :patriot:

[eridani]

63. Funny too.

Why not play with the crap the MSM is slinging at him? Me, I introduce my Kucinich spiel by saying "Stealing one from Leno, you've got to admit that the Democrats are really pretty diverse this year. They're running a black, a woman, a Hispanic and a hobbit. I'm here to tell you why you should caucus for the hobbit."

[femrap]

43. The corporate media

spun Dennis as UFO-seeing, short guy. He's about the same height as Dean and McCain, isn't he?

Your problem is with the Media. Hillary and 51% of the population in the US have the problem of sexism...the last ism left to conquer.

Honey, you living in a Patriarchy where the white male reigns supreme.


Go cry somewhere else. You need to read some books about patriarchy and sexism...really. Raise your consciousness....listen.

Your post was laughably stupid....sorry.

[Bonobo]

49. Congratulations on taking on the most disgusting qualities of the "Patriarchy"!

[femrap]

54. You need to put 'nt' in the

subject line if you don't write anything in the 'Message' area. Got that? Good.

Don't ever say I didn't teach you anything. now ta-ta.

[femrap]

47. BTW....do you know anything about the bonobo????

The female rules in the bonobo family. It's a well kept secret....go read up. The Patriarchy sure doesn't want that news to get to the public! And the bonobo is closer to humans genetically than any other primate.

Are you listening?

[Bonobo]

51. I know a shitload sister. What's your point?

In Bonobo societies, some of the pressure is off men.

Notice how a matriarchal society leades to a dimunition in sexual dimorphism?

That means short men=okay.

Listening?

[femrap]

53. I really thought

that someone with that name would be somewhat 'enlightened.' Alas, that is not the case. You know I really like Dennis' message. And his height never bothered me.

Gotta say, I love that little Ignore button....buh bye!

[Bonobo]

55. Thank god DU has a tool for intolerant people like you to use instead of just covering your ears! nt

[Chulanowa]

56. A well-kept secret?

Femrap, I doubt most people would have the first clue what a bonobo is. Do you really think there's some sort of vast all-male conspiracy out there to keep the secret life of an ape obscure?

[undercutter2006]

52. funny i just made a post about that on a different thread

like i said i feel there are too many variables that make people discriminate against someone. that's why i don't really understand the concept of white priviledge or male priviledge, if i am a poor ugly looking white male who is not smart, those characteristics make me much worse off than most of the black or female persons. doesn't mean i don't challenge people around me when they try to talk shit about women or minorities, just saying that race and gender is just a small part of things that can be discriminated against, and a lot of times they are not that ultimately important depending on the environment

[treestar]

57. No kidding!

In the halls of the shallow, this one takes the cake! As if the POTUS does not have access to WMD - who the hell cares about how short he is, along with how female she may be?


Dennis is the smartest guy we could have behind the button that controls the WMD; amazing that the average moran does not get that! It is no longer the middle ages.

[Skittles]

61. I voted for Dennis last time and I will vote for him again

but I do know what you mean - and I am sick, SICK of DUers who say they'd vote for him but, hey, they CAN'T VOTE FOR HIM because OTHER SEXIST ASSHOLES WON'T VOTE FOR HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LucyParsons]

62. I'm for Kucinich! But then, I'm a 5'0" woman.

So I guess I'm doubly f*cked.

In fact, one of my neighbors actually called me an "elf" to my face today.

Thanks.

[never_get_over_it]

64. Actually I think it is his message

it scares the crap out of the status quo crowd and THEN "they" use his shortness and his looks to justify marginalizing him.....I bet anything if he a had a McCain like message he'd be all over the mainstream media. How the hell tall is Rudy - and for god's sake McCain is downright scary looking and for that matter so is pastor hillbilly and Fred Thompson seems like he is near death or sleep or something

No its the Kucinich message WAY to radical for the dumb shits in this country....