Totally innocent question regarding Obama and Hillary only...

[ReverendDeuce]

I am not excluding Edwards, Kucinich, Gravel, Biden (whom I like the best), Dodd, Richardson, etc. for any reason other than the fact that my question strictly relates to Obama and Hillary.

Now, I am going to ask as diplomatically and as neutrally as I can. But first, a preface...

Rewind four years to the Democratic National Convention in 2004. Obama and Bill Clinton both delivered powerful speeches. There was a ton of speculation about Obama running for President in 2008. There was also a modicum of chatter regarding Hillary's foray into the race. At that time, I remember DU being full of praise for Obama. Tons of people were inspired by his speech! Everybody was in love with Obama.

Now if we turn our attention to the present day, Obama seems to be universally reviled in this forum. People are downright upset here that he is apparently doing well.

I'd like to know what has changed everybody's opinions of Obama so drastically. Please don't "drop the hammer" on me for asking. Try to be a bit civil if you can about it. If you need to be angry, please don't direct it at me for asking. :)

For the record: I liked Joe Biden and Christopher Dodd the best. I hope one of them get VP. Of the three main candidates left, I like Edwards. Obama would be my second choice. Hillary would be number three for me.

[ananda]

1. Why I don't support Obama..

Once in the Senate, he caved and moved
to the right.

He's campaigning with the help of corporate
and PAC money, has a pharmaceutical lobbyist
leading his campaign, is showing alarming
religionist tendencies, and is appealing to
Reeps.

If I have to vote for him, it will be with
a clothespin on my nose.

[Coyul]

5. Fact check

Ananda said:
"...has a pharmaceutical lobbyist
leading his campaign..." - in New Hampshire, just New Hampshire..not the whole campaign...check your facts first k?

And about moving to the right - please he'd need a transporter to get to the right of Hillary right now.

[Tyler Durden]

15. Nit Picker.

He said NO LOBBYISTS running his campaign. Period.

So now this means NO LOBBYISTS except New Hampshire?

Discuss.

[Coyul]

22. I only pic nits in my spare time

...usually busy with being a grammer nazi! :-)

Now for real nit picking:

I agree, he said no lobbyists...no FEDERAL Lobbyists...a state lobbyist is not the same, and has much less impact on anything a President can or would do.

He has responded to it today, and while not the most salient of arguments, it does qualify him for truthiness, and doesn't even get into what the definition of "is', is.

Done nitting for now. ;-)

[Tyler Durden]

23. "Truthiness??"

Lord, you sound like someone making an excuse for Bush, you do know that, don't you?

If he is "all that" why aren't you holding his feet to the fire? I would, and DO for ALL of them.

A "State Lobbyist" isn't the same as a "Federal Lobbyist;" say that out loud: do you hear how LUDICROUS that sounds?

[Hoof Hearted]

26. Fact check thyself.

from http://www.ontheissues.org/

HILLARY CLINTON

Hillary Clinton is a Hard-Core Liberal.

BARACK OBAMA

Barack Obama is a Hard-Core Liberal.

JOHN EDWARDS

John Edwards is a Populist-Leaning Liberal.



Here's a graphic overlay of our top three and some Republicans. I put it together to remind us all what real conservatives look like. D.U. has a way of warping our minds, and we forget. I actually left Mittens out of it because I think come tomorrow afternoon, he's sunk. He'll crash and burn hard in South Carolina and by then it'll be too late to pull out of the nosedive. I doubt if Giuliani will get anywhere either. I think this is a McCain/Huckabee race now on that side of the fence.

Notice how of our three, Clinton is furthest to the left and John Edwards is actually furthest to the right. That's O.K., if he got the nomination (I don't think he will) I would still be happy to support him. Any one of our three would make a FINE President.

[JTFrog]

33. Sorry. IWR, Kyl-Lieberman, Patriot Act obviously were not considered in those pretty pictures.

Liberal my ass.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. I certainly won't be as excited to get to the voting booth as I was in '04.

I voted early then. I suspect that I will wait until the day of, if Obama gets the nom. And I will need a clothespin as well.

If Hillary gets the nom., I'll need multiple clothespins.

[iamjoy]

2. Contrariness, Perhaps...

jealousy for the candidate we like better.

I mean, Biden has been in the Senate for like 30 years and here this "guy comes out of nowhere" and "takes it away from him"

In my case, it is a longing for a real primary. Instead, it seems to be unfolding just like 2004. Iowa votes and everyone else just goes along with it. We should change our party mascot to a sheep.

And also, Obama really shone at the 2004 Convention. In my opinion (my husband agrees) Hillary Clinton came off as robotic. But, since seeing more of Obama, I sometimes sense a holier than thou attitude in him. I can't quite put my finger on it, it's just a sense like he thinks he's better than the others. It's not unlike what I got from Kerry, although I still find Obama more charismatic. I'll still support him if he is our nominee, but right now, I find myself upset that he is doing so well.

[LisaM]

25. Oh, I think you've hit what bothers me

He really is holier than thou. Of course he's miles better than any Republican candidate, but I am having problems with this, too. I also can't bear how he says he wants to put the politics of division behind him, then immediately marginalizes anybody born past 1964 by saying the Baby Boomers' time is over.

[blogslut]

3. Not "universally reviled"

I dig him. Lot's of folks dig him. He's got his flaws. They all do. Just the same, when it boils down to the GE, I will accept that candidate as the choice of the Democratic party. Whoever that is, I will support them with gusto.

[hedgehog]

4. People who are backing Obama have little reason to post at this moment.

People who aren't backing him are posting arguments against him. The density of posts is not an accurate measure of support.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Oh don't believe it.

Obama isn't universally reviled by any means. There are just a lot of loud-mouth whiners making a lot of noise.

[nyc83]

12. agreed

very true

[Tyler Durden]

17. You including "Present Company?"

Will YOU be one of the "...loud-mouth whiners making a lot of noise..." should Obama tank?

Never does to burn the rope off below you as you climb the cliff face.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Nope.

Sorry.

[Tyler Durden]

24. Thank you.

I like to whine about ALL of them, knowing not one of them, no matter how close they get, is worth a tinker's DAMN next to my ideal candidate.

Who doesn't exist, by the way, but Al Gore comes closer than THIS crowd.

[DS1]

8. He's far from universally reviled

here.

[hedgehog]

9. Check this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3979207&mesg_id=3979207

[Tyler Durden]

16. This isn't a "Pep Rally."

This is pretty serious business.

Have we all forgotten this? Or just the Obama cheerleaders?

[hedgehog]

30. The OP suggested that everyone on DU was reviling Obama.

I started the thread to show it wasn't so.

[Tyler Durden]

32. I'm agreeing with you.

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference around here, isn't it?

[ReverendDeuce]

10. My problem with Hillary... (why she is my third choice)

At the debates the other night, it was summed up perfectly... Hillary represents policies that are "status quo" to me. I know that Edwards said that several times, but I am not parroting him. I've felt that way since the beginning. While she is a woman and that alone is a big change, the rest of her seems to just be a continuation of the Clinton way of doing things. Not that I have any dislike for Bill Clinton's terms in office (in fact, I think he did very well), I just don't think we need a milquetoast term or two of Clinton plodding along with how Bush did things and maybe, just maybe fixing "one or two" problems.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hillary would do an adequate job as President. She's respected the world over, is very professional, and of high caliber. But she's just not what we need right now. We need big changes right now. Someone who will roll up their sleeves and start undoing the last eight years of Bush's wreckless amok...

[NoBorders]

11. I imagine if Edwards had 'surged' 10 points ahead

and had won Iowa, plenty of invective would be directed at him as well, though perhaps a bit less so here on DU.

[trotsky]

13. My reason is that I've had 4 years to observe him.

Certain incidents on the campaign trail haven't helped. They've been hashed and re-hashed many times on DU, so there's little point bringing them up again.

[Hoof Hearted]

14. What was your question about Hillary?

As for the Obama hate? I wonder about that myself.

[BooScout]

18. I don't revile Obama.....

In fact I quite like him. Right now I lean towards Hillary in the primaries....But if Obama wins the nomination or Edwards or any Democrat save some nut like Zell, I'll vote for the nominee.

My reasons for liking Hillary are that I think she has more experience. I also think she took up the cause of National Healthcare for everyone long before others did and she was crucified and vilified for doing so by Republicans not to mention some Democrats. I don't agree with everything she has done, but then I don't agree with a lot of things the other candidates have done politically save Kuchinch.....and he is not my top choice simply because he is unelectable nationally.

I personally think a lot of people here on DU lately need to take a chill pill and watch and wait. .....Support their candidates and campaign for them but don't stroke out if they start to slip.

I don't know of anyone who can predict what's going to happen before the convention......we can speculate all we want but in the end I think one way or another a lot of us may be surprised at the ticket come the convention. We could have a Clinton/Obama ticket even.........or an Edwards/Obama.....but I don't see Obama being the front runner after Super Tuesday. I could be completely wrong though...who really knows anything?

[Tyler Durden]

19. "Reviled" is a bad choice of verb.

Disappointed makes it better with me.

His subtle journey to the middle, with attendant pandering to the Homophobic Religious Fringe, bending of his own promises vis a vis the LOBBYIST for the DRUG COMPANIES running his NH campaign, his "15,000,000 Left Behind" Health Care Plan, "Hope" instead of Hard Targets on the trail....

Note, I have said NOTHING positive about the one person that the Obama Supporters IMMEDIATELY bring up: "But NOBODY SAYS...about HILARY!!!!" I don't much like her either.

We had a great opportunity this election, and I am sad to see who we've wasted the majority of our support for (to date.)

[hyphenate]

20. The two major factors I have against Obama

are experience and tact. He doesn't have a lot of experience at all, IMHO, and for that alone, I think he needs to spend more time at the congressional level to get more experience.

Second, I think he opens his mouth and says some really stupid things at times--the one that actually pissed me off so much was his comment that somehow Gore and Kerry's campaigns divided the country in half--it was divided in half when the fucking right-wing bullied Clinton while he was office, and the religious right started a stampede to get a candidate of their choice into the white house.

If Obama is our candidate, I will of course vote for him, but Edwards will always be my first choice.

[cloudythescribbler]

27. What you're seeing is HRC and Edwards supporters attacking the front-runner

It's one thing to evaluate Barack Obama in a vacuum. But when people are CHOOSING BETWEEN Democrats, lots of them support HRC, Edwards, and others. Some people who don't know any better are even supporting dangerously RW Ron Paul. With Obama surging, they are going after him. It's as simple as that.

Also, there is a tendency to try to place impossible expectations on politicians -- that they be both winnable and purer than pure, (and by pure I refer, eg, to the nonsense about McClurkin, as if that singer's position on gay rights has ANYTHING to do with Obama's politics on the subject). The demands are virtually impossible to meet. Obama is navigating these catch-22 political waters as best he can, in my arrogant opinion, and the "Krugman syndrome" is one inevitable symptom of any kind of SERIOUS challenge for change. Nor has the media, as Bill Clinton claims, coddled Obama -- every attack on him gets close scrutiny and visibility, without being automatically swept under the rug. Some people just think that the press should be more impressed with the issues raised than most of them are.................

[Bluenorthwest]

29. McClurkin and those who minimize that whole thing

They say he's a singer, but he is a singer and a minister with a large chruch. And they pretend it has to do with McClurkin's postition on gay rights, when in fact it has to do with McClurkins viciously homophobic preaching, for which he is famous. He did some of that preaching at official Obama events, preaching against gays. Also on the bill, as selected by Obama, were two other acts well known for nasty gay baiting statements, equating gays to murderers and prostitutes. And they pretend that there is no connection between hate speech and real world violence, they pretend that it is somehow becoming of a Democratic United States Senator to allow for any form of alliance with anyone who hold up any minority for contempt, particularly in the name of God.
Obama sent a bad message, and he did it for his own increase.
I invite anyone who has ever said even a word against the likes of Pat Robertson or James Dobson to google up some McClurkin quotes. Enter his name and the word 'gay' and then the word 'president' because it is also fun to read McClurkin's praise of Bush. He sang at the GOP 2004 convention for Bush, it was very moving. Look up what this man says. He says he is at war with gays, gays are trying to kill children, the worst. If you accept this sort of politics into our Party, you'd best give up on being critical of Robertson or Dobson when they pontificate from the other side, McClurkin is no different, except for the part about his being the only speaker at the Obama events, the virtual voice of the campaign.
He came to Obama Land to preach and preach he did.
But the defenders of minority baiting like to pretend he's 'just a singer' and 'just against gay rights'. The fact that they can not be honest and straight forward about this event should be very telling to anyone.

[Didereaux]

28. Obama has developed or expose some pretty powerful short-comings...

I as is well known hereabouts was a very strong Biden supporter. I have chosen not to support another until the Dem nominee is chosen. HAving said all that and now addressing the question of Obama:

#1 his kneejerk almost subconcious pandering is a BIG problem.
#2 His voting record in support of Iraq FUNDING, every time.
# his lack of any real plan for any of the major issues. Economy, war, health, immigration. All of declarations of this is my plan are broad generalities which have been tossed about for a long time, and his lack of in depth knowledge of even them when he addresses them at debates or news conferences.
Lastly and to me his unforgivable vote to renew the Patriot Act and to use the rational that he did so while admonishing the others that it was flawed and needed fixed. Now that was some of the worst low level intelligence insulting crap spewed by other than a Repug in many a year.

I will not let the uncouth, ill-educated, spoiled brats amongst his supporters sway me, although if they get out in public they will certainly be a big negative for him amongst the general electorate.

I think when all put together the the fork test says he is not done, put him back in the oven for 8-12 more years.

[Marrah_G]

31. Both camps have been pretty nasty to the other. n/t

[bklyncowgirl]

34. Obama universally reviled?

It seems to me that there are certainly people here who can't stand the man. These seem to break down into two groups, rabid supporters of other candidates and gay rights activists outraged by the fact that a gospel singer who claims to have been cured of his homosexuality appeared at one of his events.

These people seem to have an inordinate amount of energy and lack day jobs--hence the ability to post early and often any negative comments they can about Barack Obama.

Personally, I find it impossible to dislike Obama. My main problem with him is his lack of executive and foreign policy experience. For that reason, I support Bill Richardson but I could happily and enthusiastically support Obama should he win the nominaion.

[Perry Logan]

35. Many of Obama's followers are character assassins who are impervious to facts.

They also seem capable of missing the point of everything--even friendly comments.