4,417 military deaths under Clinton? What are they talking about?

[Hamlette]

The total military dead in the Iraq war between 2003 and this month stands at about 3,133. This is tragic, as are all deaths due to war, and we are facing a cowardly enemy unlike any other in our past that hides behind innocent citizens. Each death is blazoned in the headlines of newspapers and Internet sites. What is never compared is the number of military deaths during the Clinton administration: 1,245 in 1993; 1,109 in 1994; 1,055 in 1995; 1,008 in 1996. That's 4,417 deaths in peacetime but, of course, who's counting?

http://www.nysun.com/article/48926

Does anyone know what she is talking about? Deaths as is natural causes? In a war zone? Bosnia?

It sounds to me like the right is pushing propaganda again but I really have no idea. Anyone know where these numbers come from?

[Roland99]

1. Baseless moral relativism. Just pure rwingnut propaganda.

I'm sure it's deaths of active duty personnel from illness, accidents, etc.

[Bill McBlueState]

2. that's 7,550 too many

We need to put an end to our military adventures, no matter who the president is.

[Hamlette]

4. but...I didn't think we lost any soldiers in a war under Clinton

what am I missing...

[hughee99]

13. I think there were deaths in Somalia in 1993, iirc. n/t

[WinkyDink]

41. Complete right-wing nonsense and lies. The ACTUAL stats:

"Since 1980, about 300 U.S. soldiers have died in combat, excluding peacekeeping missions. During that time, the military has fought two wars in the Persian Gulf region, launched actions in Afghanistan, Panama and Grenada and flown bombing campaigns in Yugoslavia and Kosovo."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-20-cove...

More:
By date of U.S. involvement

GRENADA
1983
DURATION IN DAYS: 51
DEPLOYED U.S. TROOPS: 5,000
U.S. BATTLE DEATHS: 18
TOTAL U.S. DEATHS: 19

PANAMA
1989-90
DURATION IN DAYS: 14
DEPLOYED U.S. TROOPS: 27,000
U.S. BATTLE DEATHS: 23
TOTAL U.S. DEATHS: 23

SOMALIA
1992-93
DURATION IN DAYS: 153
DEPLOYED U.S. TROOPS: 26,000
U.S. BATTLE DEATHS: 29
TOTAL U.S. DEATHS: 43

KOSOVO
1999
DURATION IN DAYS: 77
DEPLOYED U.S. TROOPS: 7,000
U.S. BATTLE DEATHS: 0
TOTAL U.S. DEATHS: 2

AFGHANISTAN
2001-
DURATION IN DAYS: 540 (ongoing)
DEPLOYED U.S. TROOPS: 9,000*
U.S. BATTLE DEATHS: 21
TOTAL U.S. DEATHS: 74
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030330-publ...

Of course, there were those 241 Marines killed in Lebanon, under Ronnie.

[hughee99]

43. Were you intending to reply to me on this?

Because your facts back up my statement that there were deaths in Somalia.

[dmost]

45. I was in the Kosavo campagn

And there were at least 2 deaths when an Apache crashed.

[sniffa]

WW2 vets dying of oLd age.

[Bitwit1234]

3. Well now count the deaths for other con presidents.

So if they count death by accident and natural causes, what's the count for the rest of the presidents. How many during Reagan's term, George the First. AND WHERE IN THE DEVIL DID SHE GET THE TOTALS.

[Hamlette]

7. she says from the US military official report....?

found this link through google. Appears to be another right wing looney site.

George W. Bush . . . . . 5187 (2001-2004)
Bill Clinton . . . . . . . . . 4302 (1993-1996)
George H.W. Bush . . . . 6223 (1989-1992)
Ronald Reagan . . . . . . 9163 (1981-1984)

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003564.html

[Javaman]

9. Hmmm, seems to me that regardless of her sources, the repukes still

did the most killing.

[sinkingfeeling]

32. Again, the military does not agree with these numbers, and note that

somebody at murdoc decided to only count certain years of each prez's terms.

Ronald Reagan (1981-1988) ....17,191
G.H.W. Bush (1989-1992) .... 6,223
Bill Clinton (1993-2000) .... 7,500 with a single death attributed to 'hostile'
W. Bush (2001-2004) .... 3,917 Note that this number is only the first 4 years and only 3 years of military combat

[tetedur]

5. There weren't any military deaths in combat situations

that Clinton had initiated. Eighteen died in Somalia but G.H.W.Bush had sent them in for humanitarian purposes.

I always wondered why Bosnia was really a thorn in Rumsfeld's paw. Americans are not "in combat", but he railed about how we were "still there." Well, we're in a lot of places, about 737 according to Chalmers Johnson.

[montanto]

6. military deaths from ALL

causes. Its like their argument that more people die in traffic accidents here in a month, etc.
How many people in the servicer all together? active, reserve, non-active, retired? pretty big cross section to draw stats from compared to 130,000. on the ground in iraq.

[Hamlette]

10. but there are still twice as many non combat deaths under Clinton n/t

[Jacobin]

8. Non-combat training deaths and car wrecks?

Lost a few in Mogadishu (sp?) but that was King Bush the First's little contre-temps and happened a few months into Clinton's presidency.

NYSun is quite the little rag.

[DefenseLawyer]

11. These propagandists have no shame

Those numbers, assuming they are accurate, undoubtedly represent active duty military personnel who died from any cause- car wrecks, cancer, whatever. Notice he said "deaths" and not "casualties". One has to assume that these types of military "deaths", on top of those killed in the war, have continued at about the same rate, and is in fact probably higher now since a larger percentage of reservists are now on active duty. The sad thing is we can all hear our favorite freeper saying "More soldiers died under Clinton than Bush!"

[Mortos]

12. This talking point raises it's ugly head again

First of all the numbers from 1980 until 2004 can be found here:

http://siadapp.dior.whs.mil/personnel/CASUALTY/Death_Ra...

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Never ones for in depth research, the right wingers pull random numbers out of a list and then compare them to other random numbers creating a false parellel for those who are too lazy to investigate.

The numbers of troops who died in the 1980's, and there were more who died in training accidents have to be compared to the size of the force which was much larger in order to arrive at a percentage of military members who died comparable to the force as a whole.

The person who is quoting those numbers is just cherry picking the number of troops that died in combat, out of a force of 150,000, leaving out accidental deaths, homicides, illness, etc and comparing it to the total deaths in the military from all causes during the specific years mentioned.

It is a total lie to say less troops are being killed now than under peacetime under Bill Clinton.

If you include all fatality causes during the period of the Iraq war, the number of troops killed would double.

It is a more complex formula than most are willing to examine but the overriding truth is that this talking point is a lie and it diminishes the sacrifice of our soldiers who are being killed in a time of war.

One more point, the number fails to even mention the 20,000 or so military members who have been injured in this war. A number that in the past would have been much lower because many of the injured would have died thus increasing that total.

I could go on for a long time about this comparing percentages and survivability rates to past conflicts but I won't.

The truth is soldiers are dying everyday in a war that Bush pushed us into.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. There are always training deaths in the military.

If you are going to count the training, accidental, and illness deaths under Clinton, you need to do the same for *.

Add the 3133 in Iraq to the 300+ in Afghanistan, and the ?? accidental, training and illness death to *'s column. They would probably far outstrip those under Clinton, because of intensifed training since the war started, suicides of returnees from combat, a higher likelihood of accidents as lower quality recruits are brought into the military to keep enlistments up...

[sinkingfeeling]

15. She's talking about total deaths occuring amongst all military personnel for any reason.

Her information is slightly off when compared to offical reports.

Can be found here: http://siadapp.dior.whs.mil/personnel/CASUALTY/Death_Ra...

For instance: in 1994 there were 1075 deaths, none from hostile action nor 'terror'. There were 544 accidental, 83 homocides, 206 due to illness, 232 suicides, and 10 undetermined. Out of total troop strength of 1,746,482.

Looks like the Clinton years were far less deadly than under St. Ronnie and Poppy Bush.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. What an incredible example of lying with statistics.

She counts all deaths in the Clinton years--a drunken sailor who wanders out in front of a truck while on leave in San Diego, a 45 year-old platoon sgt who has a heart attack at Ft Hood, etc. But she counts only the Iraq Qar dead in the Bush years. Not even the Afghan War dead, and certainly not those who die of natural causes Stateside. In fact, since the National Guard & Reserve forces are eligible for Iraq duty, shouldn't she count all deaths, from natural causes & otherwise, of all Guards, whether on active duty or not? Including maybe a 50 year old Army Reserve MD who dies shoveling snow out of his driveway in Minneapolis?

[yardwork]

17. She's comparing apples and oranges

To make a valid comparison, we have to compare the total number of combat deaths per year in each administration. If non-active duty are included, then we have to compare the total deaths per year in each administration.

If veterans are being included (such as WWII vets dying of old age), then we have to consider how many living veterans there are total in each administration. There may well have been more total living veterans (many of them elderly WWII vets) during Clinton's years as president, but there deaths had nothing to do with his administration.

[sarge43]

38. And all the military retirees because technically we're inactive

reserve, subject to recall. A lot of us take the old dirt nap every year.

[GirlinContempt]

18. Well, according to the Department of Defense it was 4302

And, as for peace time, it wasn't.
The Balkans, anyone?

[kestrel91316]

20. We didn't lose thousands in the Balkans. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that

American military personnel are SAFER ALND LESS LIKELY TO DIE now, during a bloody conflict, than they were during peacetime?????

Jesus wept. My country has completely fallen down the fucking stupid hole.

[GirlinContempt]

23. Did I say that?

I didn't say that. I'm refuting that it was 'peace time'. There were military actions taking place.
I think people who make up stuff that they're reading need a good old lesson in comprehension.

[sniffa]

22. didn't Lose one soLdier in the baLkans

the cLosest we came was the piLot.

[GirlinContempt]

34. Oh

I don't know the death toll, it was just an example off the top of my head of ground troop deployed.

[haele]

19. Normal Active duty and reservist mortality rates? Throw in VA hospitals?

From what I remember when I was in during that time, and reading the Navy Times regularly, there was on average ten to fifteen Navy active, reserve, and retiree deaths listed in weekly their "proceedings" columns simply due to old age, civilian accidents, training accidents, deployment/safety issues, service related injuries, etc...
Consider there are considered to be five "military" services - Air Force, Army, Coast Guard, Marines, Navy - with varying numbers of stupid young people and/or retirees that are living in VA homes and/or hospitals or are "noted" in their community, a thousand or so listed deaths a year would not be considered "special".
Another point to consider is that if you compare a yearly cross section of civilians of the same number and type as military members, you will usually find a higher mortality rate amongst the same number of civilians. That's because in general, the military tends to be much stricter in terms of safety procedures and risky behavior, at least on base.

It sounds as if your author is comparing apples and oranges by fudging statistics to make a point.

If we add current non-theater mortality averages this person is using to bash Clinton era military to our current in-theater mortality, we'd probably be able to claim on average 3 to 4K more deaths a year during the 2003 to 2006 Iraq/Iran war period. That's quadruple or higher the number of deaths during the same period of time.

The argument the author of this opinion piece is trying to make is a shiny spin object full of holes.

Haele

[Thevenin]

21. Probably deaths from all causes

When George HW Bush went into Kuwait the total active duty "head count" was 2.0 million.

When George W. Bush invaded Iraq the total active duty "head count" was 1.4 million.

That does NOT include either the Guard or Reserve when not mobilized.

The deaths are deaths from all causes, hostile fire, friendly fire, auto accidents, staph, strep, cancer, heart attacks, strokes, -- all inclusive.

Also includes Reserves and Guard members on their two weeks active duty (including travel between home and duty).

[izzybeans]

24. A chart on page 15 of this report details the death rates of the military from 1980-2002

http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=Population_Bull...

The number of deaths in the military decreased in the 90s and started to rise again in 2001. That is overall deaths. Combat related deaths are a very small percentage of the overall totals in any given year. And none are listed in this report for the entire decade of the 90s after 1991.

Leave it to a rightwing journalist to not have the facts straight.

[mainer]

27. Between 1992 - 2001, almost no battle deaths

The only deaths on that chart appear to be accidents, suicides, and homicides. And they were lower in the Clinton years than in other years.

[izzybeans]

30. Yep. The Sun journalist is clearly a liar.

[izzybeans]

31. dupe.

[Mortos]

28. Mysteriously enough

The DOD has not made public, that I can find, the years 2005 and 2006 when Iraq really started turning to shit.

[izzybeans]

29. True.

It's also interesting to note that unknown numbers of casualities get reclassified via paperwork trickery into noncombat deaths.

[mainer]

25. Kosovo US battle deaths: 0. Total US deaths: 2

According to globalsecurity.org

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030330-publ...

[sarge43]

33. As memory serves

one of those deaths was due to the grunt fooling around with spent{sic} enemy munitions - Death by Stupid.

[wicket]

26. She's counting accidents, murders, suicides & natural causes

Some breakdowns here:

http://www.murdoconline.net/pics/Death_Rates.pdf

Short version: she's a lying moron.

[Hamlette]

35. thank you!

I was in a rush this am when I posted this. I googled it but didn't readily find an answer. I knew DU would find it for me!

Thanks.

The problem with this kind of talk is 50 years from now people might believe as many US military died in Clinton's "war" as in Bush's. They are trying to rewrite history. They only people who will know the truth are those of us who dig for it.

[wicket]

36. Any time Hamlette!!!!

[maxrandb]

37. Jesus H. Christ!!!

That's no different than Limpballs comparing the number of dead in this god foresaken war, with the number killed by incorrect prescription medicine.

Has the entire fucking world gone insane, or is it limited to the fucking New York Daily News?

[BrooklyniteBlog]

39. Running the numbers

I've written up two detailed blogposts on Colon's numbers, addressing the decline in military fatalities under Clinton, the ways in which she manipulates statistics, and other issues. You can find them <a href="http://brooklynite.livejournal.com/114067.html " >here</A> original post) and <a href="<a href="URL" > text </A>" >here</A> (followup).

I think between the two of them, the posts answer most of the questions in this thread. If you've got others, let me know and I'll do another follow-up.

[BrooklyniteBlog]

40. Re: Running the numbers

Oops. That second URL is http://brooklynite.livejournal.com/114316.html

[Hamlette]

42. Whoa Brooklyn! What great posts....

thanks (is it just me or is it hard to find one's way around your site? I was looking for other great stuff and while she's darling and I relaly love the valentines....)

[BrooklyniteBlog]

46. Much appreciated.

Thanks. And yeah, Livejournal is a little weird. The easiest way to get a look at what's on offer is probably by clicking on the subject tags on the right-hand side of the page.

[Bucky]

44. I've made a spreadsheet for this if anyone wants it

Among interesting stats:
In Poppy's four years, 3487 troops died in accidents and 353 died in homocides. Rates of 874 and 88 per year.
In Clinton's eight years, 3953 troops died in accidents and 427 died in homocides. Rates of 494 and 53 per year.
Homocide rates continue to drop among the military under Dubya, to just 45 per year in his first term. Accident rates in Bush's first term edged up a bit to 527 per year, but that can probably be accounted for by the increased war activities.

Under Poppy, an average of 238 troops died of self-inflicted wounds per year. Under Clinton the rate dropped to 190 per year. The suicide rate has continued to drop under Bush to 156 per year during his first term. I sure hope that number stays low.

PM me if you want the spreadsheet.