"Fuzzy Science" and Christians who ignore the teachings of Jesus.

[madfloridian]

I had a conversation today with a well-educated, politically ignorant (and happy to be that way) relative. We have not talked much in several years. We talked of the weather, he asked about my interests and what I was doing lately. I did not say much, just that we had been active in politics....which of course he knew. He said he'd been fed up with politics, never watched the news anymore.

Then he said he met his congressman in an airport recently.....and he told him they were just making a mess in Washington. I kept my mouth shut. He told him that Congress needed to stop worrying about all the "poor folks" and just look out for the middle class. He did not say a word about the rich.

This was not unexpected from him, as my Republican family mostly consider us "bleeding heart liberals."

I told him I knew he was raised in the church like I was. I asked him if he remembered the words of Jesus.

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me."

He sort of mumbled, but I think he has been taken in by the right wing mantra that each person is responsible for themselves. If you are poor you deserve it, if you are rich you deserve it. He is "rich."

Then I remembered something the other day here. Sometime sent me a note when I posted a local article about the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the school board here which is against evolution.

It was a nice note and seemed to think I was mocking religion. I wasn't. I don't mock religion or religious people, as I was raised that way. I point out the way too many of today's post-right-wing-hijacking Christians often do not look at facts and too often demand others follow their way of thinking.

This letter to the editor continued that theme of Florida's Evolution/Intelligent Design spat. He is a teacher in Hong Kong now, previously taught here. He was a teacher after my own heart, and one I wish I had been more like. He made waves, he was proud to do it. He stood up to principals who put ideology before real education.

He cuts through the heart of hypocrisy in many letters he gets printed, and that is not popular.

Fuzzy Science

The currently ensuing spam attack on the Polk County School Board by the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" - a satirical group that pokes fun at intelligent design, may seem funny and even cute at first glance ("Satirical Monsters More Competition for Darwin," Dec. 11).

But the fact that a majority of local School Board members have opted to support the "fuzzy science" articulated by intelligent design is certainly no laughing matter.

And while it comes as no surprise that the two board members who publicly support the new Florida science curriculum and its explicit evolutionary language are also (coincidentally?) up for re-election in 2008, the remaining five members - four against and one still on the fence - might ponder the following intellectual realities in the lives of all Polk County high school students now that high-stakes standardized testing has become a permanent fixture in Florida's educational landscape:

1. How many questions on Intelligent Design will our students encounter on the FCAT?

2. How many questions on I.D. will our students encounter on the Advanced Placement Biology exam?

3. How many questions on I.D. are on the ACT college entrance exam?

4. How many questions on I.D. are on the SAT science achievement test?

5. How many questions on I.D. are on the CLEP test for cost-effective, pre-enrollment college credit in science?

The subject of the lack of care for the poor, letting them fend for themselves, and the subject of educators supporting Intelligent Design.....they are related in one very important way.

They point out that right wing ideologues have been controlling the conversation far too long, and that common sense voices on the political scene have been far too rare.

[Poiuyt]

1. Matthew 19:24.

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

[madfloridian]

3. That reminds me....

when I was in elementary school and junior high, we could memorize bible verses and quote them back to our teachers....yes, I said our teachers. When we learned a certain number we qualified for bible camp that summer. I always got to go.

I don't think that practice is still going on, at least I hope not.

I listened to that economically privileged relative today, and I realized how cold he had sounded toward anyone other than himself. It made me remember holidays when they would call my parents bleeding hearts. I am, as they were before they passed on, proud to be a bleeding heart.

[jeff30997]

2. Fuzzy science my ass.

And how many questions on Santa Klaus and the Easter Bunny ?

[SirRevolutionary]

4. I'm a programmer,

and I'd like to know when God will fix all the bugs in Java. But I suppose those are purposeful bugs, so as not to make things too easy for people.

[madfloridian]

5. I think he told me that is next on his agenda....

Welcome to DU.

[Swagman]

31. hey !..you mean SHE told you

[madfloridian]

33. Now that could very well be true.

[theredpen]

10. Blasphemer

Java is perfect. You want bugs? Try .NET

[papau]

22. true - but in .NET bugs are really undocumented enhancements :-)

[Ezlivin]

18. God thinks that polymorphism is an abomination

And that whole thing about overloading classes is simply wrong.

[Leopolds Ghost]

34. On the subject of death... "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

God said the same thing about mosquitoes.

[bleever]

6. I was expecting

you to compare "Fuzzy Science" with "Fuzzy Christianity".

That's where the willful disregard of Christ's actual teachings, as you noted, are glossed over for vague reasons.

"Sure, I'm a Christian, but not that I follow what Jesus said; I follow his followers' instructions instead."

If you had a chance to expound on this, I bet it would make for more good reading.

[madfloridian]

7. "not that I follow what Jesus said; I follow his followers' instructions instead."

That's a very good way to put it. My relative had forgotten the foundations of his upbringing. It is easier when you are rich to ignore the poor.

Jesus would have wept.

[Yuugal]

9. The problem is the Holy Loophole

Basically some these people feel they can be rich and not care about anyone else their whole life, and as long as they went to church and ask for forgiveness, SHAZAM! Pearly Gates time.

If there is a god I'm sure he has a great sense of humor and is very forgiving though. Those people will probably walk right through the Pearly Gates to an inner courtyard and another gate with a sign over it: Closed.

Or maybe Pearly Gates will turn out to be Bill's evil sister and her entry system to Heaven will be:

"Would you like to enter heaven?" Click yes/no
"Are you sure you have permission to enter Heaven?" Click yes/no
"Would you like us to check whether you have permission to enter?" Click yes/no
"Your soul is unstable. Press any key to reboot." Bluescreen, no buttons respond.
"Soul unable to restart after improper shutdown. Please Shutdown"
"Fatal error. Please call support" They notice the black phone to their right....

"Hello, Soul support? This is .........."Welcome to Soul support. If you are calling to buy a
picture of Heaven press 1. If know a friend who wants to buy a picture press 2. If you would like
to buy a picture of the room your in now press 3....... .......................................
................................................
................................................................................................
................................................................................................
................ If you need to speak to a Soul support specialist press 5,429" Pressing 5429

"Call volume is very high right now, your wait will be approximately 43.5 yrs." Sound of
Muskrat Love: Muzak version during whole wait.

"Hi, my name is Fred, how may I help you?"
"Hey Fred, every time I try to reboot my soul it crashes."
"We get that all the time, just reboot. if that fails all you need to do is" .......whirring
noise followed by a click and a dial tone.

[Kajsa]

12. Yuugal, this is great.

I'm picturing this scene as I read it.

Sounds like the beginning of a great script.

[Yuugal]

14. Awww ty nt

[truedelphi]

29. It was really funny.

Except that by now, perhaps Gates owns God and Heaaven and it may well be TRU!

[madfloridian]

26. Good post....like this part.

"Basically some these people feel they can be rich and not care about anyone else their whole life, and as long as they went to church and ask for forgiveness, SHAZAM! Pearly Gates time."

Thanks for sharing.

[LaStrega]

8. I would have spelled it ...

well-ejumacated

aren't thems the bestest of relatives?

Honestly, Homer puts 'em to shame.

*Amber is off to play her saxamaphone*

saxamaphone ......... saaaxaaamaaaphone

[theredpen]

11. Ignoring the teachings of Jesus...

I was reading some Freeper threads concerning some statement by some cleric about opposing the war or feeding the poor or something and one of the Fundie Freepers actuals said something like, "Why do liberal Christians always quote the sermon on the mount?" I almost signed up and posted... "um, because they're Christians and Christ said it?"

Pointing out that right wing Christians never quote Christ, only Paul, would have fallen on deaf ears, of course.

[Kajsa]

13. Why do we quote it?

Because they are Christ's teachings!

You and I know it but WOW- have they
forgotten that fact!

I call the Fundies heretics.
They are so far removed from his teachings they
wouldn't recognized them if they were hit over the
head with them.

Argh!

[ladym55]

32. And they pick the worst parts of Paul to boot

There are beautiful parts of Paul about love and faith and using our gifts to help each other, but those pieces aren't as cool as the part verse that is homophobic and that charmer about women being submissive to their husbands.

The Sermon on the Mount isn't popular because the teachings aren't comfortable and easy. It's easy to hang on to a few specific verses out of context and use them to justify yourself and judge others.

[momster]

35. O.T. All The Time

I know a lot of Christians and the worst of them quote the O.T. all the time. The Decalogue, never the Sermon on the Mount. The Fire and Slaughter bits of Leviticus, never the Parables. They go on about the wealth of Solomon, never J.C. tossing the moneymen out of the temple.

The best of the Christians don't quote anybody...they live it.

[theredpen]

38. Well put!

The Fire and Slaughter bits of Leviticus

...but not the parts that would be inconvenient to them (don't eat pork, don't wear mixed-fiber fabrics).

The best of the Christians don't quote anybody...they live it.

That is ironically quotable.

[DeepModem Mom]

15. K&R

[HuffleClaw]

16. seems to me it would be common sense for any judge to toss this stuff

as its a clear violation of the church/state thing

[Echo In Light]

17. Of course the spirit of anti-Christ will adopt the surface trappings of Christianity

That's the entire point of the anti-Christ as a unity: false light bearer. Oddly enough this theme is in keeping with typical authoritarian projection, imputing to others that which you yourself are most guilty of. So when a brainwashed righty attempts to cover his or her poison jive with the trappings of "Christianity" by denouncing others, they are in fact projecting their own fraud.

[Ezlivin]

19. The next "Saw" movie is biblically based!

Judges 20:6 says "And I took hold of my concubine and cut her in pieces and sent her throughout the land of Israel's inheritance; for they have committed a lewd and disgraceful act in Israel."

I wonder if FedEx or UPS will do the delivery in the modern-day version?

[scytherius]

20. All you can do

All you can do is to continue to educate people that will listen and just wait for these people to die off. Even though they are a loud, but relatively small, minority now . . . polling numbers make it clear that with the next generation the days of the Evangelical are numbered. But they won't be numbered if we give up in frustration and remain quiet. It's time to no longer be tolerant of religion.

[rasputin1952]

21. I often find it incredible that some of the people who call ...

themselves as "devout" Christians, often forget that Jesus was one of the great "Bleeding Heart Liberals" in all of history. The Beatitudes are a remarkable social treatise on how people who are downtrodden should have hope and work to change things, but it is rarely, if ever, mentioned by those who profess such "knowledge" about scriptures.

Negativity and fear have moved what could be one of the great social motivators into a daft cult of people who are terrified of going to hell, and fail to realize they have created a hell on earth, simply because they have failed to see the good and zeroed in on the bad.

Fortunately, there are people out there who are quietly making a difference in their corners of the world...silently doing the good things that make a person's life just a little better. They are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists...common human decency is not relegated to any "religion", and these people do what they can, with what they have.

Sometimes, it is just as great a gift to acknowledge another human being as being a human being, and justifying their existance...

[papau]

23. It's not evolution versus ID - indeed ID is in science as the "strong anthropic principle" - ID is

just not something that should be set up as an alternative to evolution in a science class.

See Barrow and Tipler definition of strong anthropic principle in general dissusion of topic at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle - - anthropic principle - Idea that ‘the universe is the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to observe it’. The principle arises from the observation that if the laws of science were even slightly different, it would have been impossible for intelligent life to evolve. For example, if the strengths of the fundamental forces were only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and produce the chemical elements that make up our bodies.

Where they note:
"All versions of the principle have been accused of providing simplistic explanations which undermine the search for a deeper physical understanding of the universe. The invocation of either multiple universes or an intelligent designer are highly controversial, and both ideas have been criticized by some as being presently untestable, and therefore not within the purview of contemporary science."

When our response to an idea - the apparent Intelligent Design of the universe and our world - depends on who is talking with an atheist like Hawking pushing multiple universes being "OK" while a religious person sees the hand of God and that is not OK - then we have a problem.

I now live in the Tampa area much of the year and will start voting there next year - and I agree ID should be kept out of any science discussion about evolution. But it is sad that some folks do not understand the discussion to the point that religion mocking spaghetti gods are pulled into the conversation.

[madfloridian]

24. That is not my point at all.

Sorry you think so.

[papau]

40. I'm sorry I missed the point - I basically agree with everything in your post and meant only

to add a comment re the last portion on Intelligent design.

ID does not belong in high school science courses - but I was trying to note that on DU there are posts that try to imply that the concept is totally rejected by practicing scientists - and it is not. Indeed as noted in wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle = it is as valid as the multiple universes implied by our current understanding of quantum mechanics. Indeed ID concepts underlie many proposals in one form or another (mainly called anthropic principle lest "god" be thought involved ).

A World Designed for us seems obvious - but that is not science, as it can not be tested. To call that "obvious fact" "intelligent design" brings god into a science discussion because of how the words are used today.

But "intelligent design" is just a valid use of words to describe what science prefers to call the anthropic principle. It is not a mis-characterization, but "intelligent" carries with it that untestable "god" thing into a discussion of the untestable anthropic principle.

I realized that the above has little to nothing to do with the first part of your post - and again I agree with your post - all parts.

I was just commenting on how the ID fight is a bit illogical.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

27. Thanks, will take a look at it.

[Plucketeer]

28. Amen!

Kay and Are!

[xchrom]

30. christianity is in a bad place because of fundies -- both catholic and protestant --

and the new evangelicals.

Christianity had a chance to morph into it's better angel -- why? -- because of real wrestling with WWII{think something like the crucification on a grand scale} -- but panic over school integration and feminism has caused a backlash against a real forward movement.

it is possible that liberal/progressive christians are beginning to take back their place -- but we'll see.

[xxqqqzme]

36. '...They point out that right wing

ideologues have been controlling the conversation far too long, and that common sense voices on the political scene have been far too rare..../

Growing up in southern Indiana, in a publican, Episcopal influenced home - church on Sunday, potluck dinners, young people meetings - right wing evangelizing ideologues were a joke among the adults in my world. There were always 'tent' meetings advertised in the summer and I never knew one person who attended one. Their actions were so out of the mainstream, that they were marginalized. My brother & I would watch oral roberts, or the ones speaking in tongues, on TV and laugh our asses off. They fit in the margins because they did not represent logical, rational thinking persons (and Science was a BIG deal after sputnik started circling the globe).

I don't know how it all changed. I do know when it changed....during the campaign in 1980. I remember seeing st ronnie in arenas filled w/ falwell/robertson/roberts followers, waving their hands and weeping like he was the second coming. It genuinely baffled me. Here we HAD a President, Jimmy Carter, who was not shy about his faith - a Southern Baptist even - and these fools were flocking to st. ronnine because jerry, pat & oral told them to. I never felt uncomfortable w/ Carter's dedicated Christianity (or Kennedy's Catholicism) because they knew government & religion were not to be mixed. If they were could do it AND promote science, why can't the creeps running the show now? (Taking out love of power & money, of course, because those are not Christian values ).

[madfloridian]

37. Interestingly, even Carter got disillisuioned and left the SBC

for another church.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_Carter.ht...

""I have finally decided that, after 65 years, I can no longer be associated with the Southern Baptist Convention," the 76-year-old former president said in a letter mailed to 75,000 Baptists nationwide on Thursday by a group of moderate Texas Baptists.

Carter said the Southern Baptist Convention, which has almost 16 million members, has adopted policies "that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," including a denominational statement that prohibits women from being pastors and tells wives to be submissive to their husbands."

[theredpen]

39. Let's not forget what put the "Southern" in Southern Baptist

The Southern Baptists split from the "Northern" Baptists over the issue of slavery. While some New Testament writings (mostly by Paul, surprise surprise) appear to support slavery, it was not the kind of slavery we had in America. It was more like an indentured servitude — kinda. If you've seen the HBO series Rome, they accurately depict the rather complex issue of what it meant to be a slave in the New Testament era.

Anyway, the Catholic Church and the abolitionist Baptists knew that the slavery practiced in the U.S. was contrary to the teachings of Jesus. I like to remind Southern Baptists of this. Usually they start off by claiming that "all Christians" thought that the Bible supported the institution of slavery; that's just bullshit.

Carter said the Southern Baptist Convention, which has almost 16 million members, has adopted policies "that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," including a denominational statement that prohibits women from being pastors and tells wives to be submissive to their husbands."

Misinterpretation of St. Paul strikes again! I hope they SBC keeps this kind of crap up, because it's going to guarantee that this pernicious mutation of "Christianity" will kill itself in a generation or two.