9-Year-Old Banned from Christmas Party "Because He Didn't Believe in Jesus"

[kpete]

9-Year-Old Banned from Christmas Party "Because He Didn't Believe in Jesus"
Posted by Paddy , Cliff Schecter's Blog on December 22, 2007 at 5:18 AM.

The "War On Christmas" gone bad.

Banned: Douglas Stewart (left), seen here with brother Callum, was stopped from attending a party because of his 'lack of religious beliefs'

Teachers banned a nine-year-old boy from his class Christmas party because his parents had barred him from RE (ed note- religious education) lessons.


Douglas Stewart was forced to stay at home while his friends received presents from Santa and tucked into ice cream and jelly.


....................


Headmaster Ian Davidson said that because the youngster had no interest in religion he could not celebrate the birth of Christ.


Furious mother Dawn Riddell, 38, said yesterday: "I've helped out at the Christmas party before and it's got absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Douglas was heartbroken he couldn't go. It was cruel."

more at:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/#71410

[Deja Q]

1. Why didn't mommy ask the clan beforehand if Christmas had something to do with Jesus?

I mean, the word "Duh" doesn't even begin to cover this doofus named Dawn.

But I'll agree; it was cruel - why not use Christmas to teach the boy about Christ's life* and why his birth is special? To summarily kick him out is illogical.


* Prior to the events of "The Passion of the Christ", a movie which is more about Jesus' final moments and being treated like a punching bag and has little to do with what made the Dude special in the first place.

[EOTE]

8. Or, how about allowing the kid to celebrate in his own way?

I hope you don't do anything to celebrate Halloween without observing the rites traditionally associated with the Celtic festival Samhain. You know, where you have bonfires to celebrate the overlapping of the worlds of the dead and living. Where the dead would come back to life and wreak havoc on the living. Don't believe that? Then I sure hope you never celebrate Halloween, because after all, that's what it's about.

There are plenty of non-Christians who like to celebrate Christmas simply as a time to be together with family and be joyous. It doesn't take believing in the divinity of Christ.

[saltpoint]

16. No, no, no. We can't have that. It's won't do. Perish the thought.

And why? Because it would promote individuality, self-growth, a healthy examination of the mind, and would suggest the value of encouraging exploration toward selfhood.

Absurd, inconvenient, and outrageous.

[iamjoy]

37. That Is How I See It

I was raised Jewish, I'm now agnostic/Secular Humanist.

But you know, most of the time when some one wishes me a Merry Christmas, I take it in the spirit I think it was intended - not about the birth of a savior, but about goodwill, harmony and peace.

I some ways the commericalization of Christmas is sad, but on the other hand, the commericalization has helped to make it a secular holiday as well as a religious one.

I celebrate the secular aspects.

[Cha]

66. Prescisely...I was

wishing people Merry Christmas all over the place today at the co-op. People love it and I was also wishing them a Happy Winter Soltice. We had so much fun today..everyone joined in and there was no war even though we have people of all stripes coming into our co-op.

[fenriswolf]

71. so true

I love christmas, its a time for family and love. It brings together people even without religious conotations. Santa is a mythical figure of wonderment to children (even if they don't believe in him) it is both hypocritical to say that the current tradition of christmas has everything to do with religion. Heck its not even christs birthday. you can be agnostic or athiest of buddhist or hindu or whatever and still celebrate the spirit of christmas.

[trixie]

40. Oh yes how stupid of his mother

to not explain that Jesus and Santa are joined. It must have been Santa that brought gifts to the birth. Jesus must be one of the elves that makes toys for children around the world.

WOW! You should be a minister/preacher/priest with all that religious knowledge of yours.

[superkia]

75. How has the media brainwashed people into making this an...

issue? Americans have this new hate for each other, people wont even look your way sometimes so you can say hello and its all part of the conditioning that we are getting from our government and their media. You seem a little bitter in your post, did the lady do something to you? When did it become ok to force someone else's BELIEF down another persons throat at school? I would sue if I were her and explain that she pays taxes like the other parents and her child should not be excluded from a PUBLIC party for the school children. OR, they should give any of the children that don't share the same beliefs, their own party. Discrimination is now excepted by DUers? Whats the media going to brainwash everyone with next, we are past police abuse and tasers, that has become acceptable.

Lets not even get into the "DUH" factor on grown ups having imaginary friends to get them through life now.

[RetroLounge]

126. Ever been to a grammar school christmas party?

They have NOTHING to do with jesus.

Sheesh, stick to penis jokes...

RL

[saltpoint]

2. Why didn't they just nail him to a board in the gym as an example to

the other kids and the community in general?

We can't tolerate diverse thought, and this little punk had no right to assert his point of view on the agreed-to plan.

If you don't stop this kind of thing early, who knows what it could lead to later?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I was thinking he should be burned at the stake

[saltpoint]

13. Indeed. Well, first there should be a week or so where he's branded a

demon or a witch or something like that out of the Medieval playbook -- something, you know, Inquisitional.

THEN burn him at the stake in the center of the commons while the other kids open their presents.

How festive that would be.

_ _ _ _

I really think this kids' parents should send him to another school, if there's one available. I don't think a case could be made that the principal has his best interests at heart.

[BushOut06]

96. They could demonstrate various techniques from the Inquisition

I don't think it would be all that difficult to assemble a stretching rack. Heck, they could even combine that with Physical Education, and see if his little companions could stretch him out!

[saltpoint]

101. "If I was a carpenter..." etc.

It might be good if the school issued some kind of statement so we knew where they stood.

Maybe they're going to dig in their heels on this one, maybe they'll relent some.

All I'm getting from the accounts so far is that a 9-year old in Scotland got disinvinted to an ice cream party.

I'm not sure I'd want the adults in charge of that school in charge of much of anything!

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Wow - that's pretty seriously wrong.

I don't know what the laws are in England, but I hope the family can find some way to legally punish the headmaster.

Sounds like a vindictive prat, not a Christian.

[saltpoint]

11. "Vindictive" is just the word for it.

This person is not my idea of a headmaster/principal. What a shithead.

[SidDithers]

116. Sounds like a vindictive Christian prat...nt

Sid

[Echo In Light]

4. Apparently Jesus' unconditional love is applicable to a select few only

[B Calm]

23. Yep.. looks like you hit the nail on the head!

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. yes, it's a very exclusive religion according to many practitioners

[Algorem]

5. this is good practice for the little atheist for when he's sent to hell.

he won't take it so hard.

[Cronus Protagonist]

117. Hahaha good one n/t

He'll surely be devastated at losing a chance to worship baby Jesus.

I went to one annual charity party once and I was horrified with the whole thing so much that I never went back. Scarred me for life. :)

[sendero]

6. Well I hope all the good little Christians..

... are BANNED from the class Halloween party :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Please will someone tell me what Santa has to do with Jesus??

Banging my head here.

[Echo In Light]

12. Their collusion is a prerequisite for the Christ Bunny's delivery of Holy Eggs!

[EOTE]

18. I think he and the Easter Bunny joined forces to take on the Jews

who killed Christ. Then Santa recovered the Spear of Destiny to fight his way to the Lost Temple where Jesus was buried so he could use his elf dust to resurrect Him. And that is why we celebrate both Jesus and Santa on the 25th.

[Echo In Light]

19. You know it, man! ...and I'd fork over my $10 for a ticket to watch that. Fire up the bong!

[EOTE]

22. You'll find it in next year's "The Passion II: The Christening" NT

[Echo In Light]

28. They need to work Santa's reindeer in as disciple allegory

[truth2power]

20. You beat me to it...

What does Santa have to do with Jesus?

Also, What does "believe in Jesus" mean? That he was born? That he died? That he was born on Dec. 25? Bwahaha. Um..how about that he said,"Inasmuch as you do it unto the least of these.."

Oh, wait..never mind.

Those people who excluded that child should be ashamed to call themselves Christians. :(

[Echo In Light]

24. "The last genuine Christian was the one who died on the cross" - Nietzsche

[0007]

45. Nothing has changed in the last 5000 years.

I do not take any credit to my better-balanced head because I never went crazy on Presbyterianism. We go too slow for that. You never see us ranting and shouting and tearing up the ground, You never heard of a Presbyterian going crazy on religion. Notice us, and you will see how we do. We get up of a Sunday morning and put on the best harness we have got and trip cheerfully down town; we subside into solemnity and enter the church; we stand up and duck our heads and bear down on a hymn book propped on the pew in front when the minister prays; we stand up again while our hired choir are singing, and look in the hymn book and check off the verses to see that they don't shirk any of the stanzas; we sit silent and grave while the minister is preaching, and count the waterfalls and bonnets furtively, and catch flies; we grab our hats and bonnets when the benediction is begun; when it is finished, we shove, so to speak. No frenzy, no fanaticism --no skirmishing; everything perfectly serene. You never see any of us Presbyterians getting in a sweat about religion and trying to massacre the neighbors. Let us all be content with the tried and safe old regular religions, and take no chances on wildcat.
- "The New Wildcat Religion"......Mark Twain

Satan hasn't a single salaried helper; the Opposition employ a million.
- Mark Twain

[DutchLiberal]

103. Actually, they shouldn't be ashamed. They do what they're supposed to do.

Every religion is based upon exclusion of others. Non-believers must be shut out. It says so in the holy books. Even Jesus himself said he came to separate the believers from the non-believers. So technically, these people are very appropriate in calling themselves 'Christians'.

[Dawggie]

76. Started with some guy who acually took Jesus's ideas at face value...

The legend of Santa Claus can be traced back hundreds of years to a monk named St. Nicholas. It is believed that Nicholas was born sometime around 280 A.D. in Patara, near Myra in modern-day Turkey. Much admired for his piety and kindness, St. Nicholas became the subject of many legends. It is said that he gave away all of his inherited wealth and traveled the countryside helping the poor and sick. One of the best known of the St. Nicholas stories is that he saved three poor sisters from being sold into slavery or prostitution by their father by providing them with a dowry so that they could be married. Over the course of many years, Nicholas's popularity spread and he became known as the protector of children and sailors. His feast day is celebrated on the anniversary of his death, December 6. This was traditionally considered a lucky day to make large purchases or to get married. By the Renaissance, St. Nicholas was the most popular saint in Europe. Even after the Protestant Reformation, when the veneration of saints began to be discouraged, St. Nicholas maintained a positive reputation, especially in Holland.

Doesn't matter now, though. He was born in the ME and all things ME are terrorists and anti-Xtian. :sarcasm:

[reggie the dog]

79. Jesus was a, elf

in santas workshop. Santa pays shit wages so that is why Jesus was homeless. Santa doesnt provide health insurance either, so Jesus was born in a manger (his mom worked for santa too). Basically santa is a real hard ass who believes that kids in China deserve to work hard so kids in the USA can have cheap shit delivered by him on xmas.

[Cronus Protagonist]

118. lol WOOF! Angry Jesus! Angry God! :P

Heh. And He's angry at us all. Angry Jesus. 'cos we're not doing what he wanted us to do. We're Bad people. Angry Jesus. Angry God. We're making God angry. Angry God. :P

[Seabiscuit]

98. That was my first thought as well. I'm glad I scanned the posts before posting the same words. :)

[DutchLiberal]

102. 'Santa Claus' comes from the Dutch celebration of 'Sinterklaas' (Saint Nicholas).

The Americans stole him!!!1!1

;-)

[saltpoint]

9. Perhaps there's a translation error in the New Testament?

I thought it said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me," and not "Marginalize any of the little heathens who don't believe I'm divine."

Should I write to the publisher and complain?

[minnesota_liberal]

14. What's a "council-run" school?

The original story http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=503920&in_page_id=1770&ICO=NEWS&ICL=TOPART states that this happened at "...a council-run school in Buckie, Banffshire" but is still short on details.

The newspaper's local audience might know, but I haven't got a clue as to what "council-run" means.

If it was a church-run school, were there any public schools available for Douglas to attend?

Did the school require tuition from the family or receive any tax-based funds?

In any case, if the school didn't have a problem with young Douglas attending their institution but skipping RE lessons, it seems odd - and cruel - for them to exclude him from the Santa-based Christmas party.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. A council-run school is what we would call a "public school"

I looked up Banffshire, and it's in Scotland.

I don't know the specifics of the Scottish educational system, but in England, RE ("religious education") is part of the curriculum. There is no notion of separation of church and state in the UK. If you remember the old comedy series Yes, Prime Minister, there's an episode that's about the Prime Minister approving the appointment of a bishop.

In the old days, RE was specifically Christian, but these days, they undoubtedly have to make accommodation for children of non-Christian families.

In Scotland, the main religious tradition is Calvinist, and they can be awfully uptight.

Remember, by the way, that the original source of this story is The Daily Mail, which is the British equivalent of a supermarket tabloid, so there may be more to the story.

[minnesota_liberal]

44. Thanks!

You answered all of my questions and then some.

:applause:

[trixie]

43. having friends in UK....

....private means public and public means private....but I see what you are getting at.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Actually it's more like this:

state school or council school = U.S. public school
independent school = U.S. private school
public school = U.S. old, well-established private school that caters to old money types
grammar school = U.S. a public school that has selective admissions (like Bronx High School of Science)

[Dorian Gray]

49. I think it's a public school....

(Not British Public, which actually means private, but our version of public.) But... the British don't have the separation of state from religion that we're guaranteed, so I dn't think that they would have the same recourse that we'd have in the US if this happened at one of our public schools.

[cgrindley]

60. the C of E is THE established church in the UK

remember that big word.... antidisestablishmentarianism? Well, perhaps one of you can work it into a sentence in the context of this story.

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. More specifically, it's the established church in England - but this was Scotland

In Scotland, the Church of Scotland is the 'national church', but it's not 'established'. The queen is just a member of it, unlike the CofE of which she is the 'supreme governor', and it doesn't have direct links with government. See http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/organisation/orgqueen.htm for details.

[cgrindley]

95. I didn't realize that it was Scotland

I did my PhD in Scotland and I can tell you that the Scots are more than a little xenophobic and the Church of Scotland has fairly deep roots.

[Moochy]

15. Ice cream and jelly?

yuk

[saltpoint]

17. No kidding. I'm in with the ice cream. Hold the Welch's.

[Sugar Smack]

21. Tucked into ice cream and jelly?

Sounds weird. I'd give it a miss.

[saltpoint]

27. LOL!

I'm kind of creeped out that any school would behave like that toward its clients' children as a general notion and as a gesture of singling one of those children out for marginalization especially.

That community should be storming the doors of that administrator's office demanding a little justice.

Free thought shouldn't be punished. And the kid's 9 years old.

[enlightenment]

54. Jelly in the UK is a gelatin dessert

like US brand Jell-o.

See my sig? We put a great "translation" glossary in the back . . .!

[Sugar Smack]

73. Oh, neat! I'm going to look at it later.

I didn't know he was from Scotland. I just sort of assumed he was from the US. A lot of us do that, you know. :rofl: So thank you for the translation glossary. :D It'll be fun to read translations.

Did you know that in the Southern US, "hisadiddy"(sp?) means "high-falutin'"?

[minnesota_liberal]

26. Ice cream and jelly sounds better than haggis!

They're in Scotland. I'll bet it's a regional thing.

[EOTE]

31. Mmmmm, ice cream stuffed haggis.

I don't know how anyone is capable of removing a sheep's stomach and smell that godawful stench, yet still think it would be good to eat. And if that weren't bad enough, stuffing it with heart and lungs? I guess I can kind of respect the dish in the same way that I respect the Native Americans for using every single part of the buffalo, but after I witnessed my mom preparing it for a UU function when I was young, there's no way you'll get me to come near the stuff.

[gollygee]

41. In the UK, they call Jell-O "jelly"

and they like them together. Not something i'm into but it's considered quite a treat there, as I've been told by Brits.

[Moochy]

50. Wow

Now that you've explained it, it actually sounds even worse! x(

[Individualist]

86. Ditto

Ice cream and jello? Blech!

[dmallind]

51. UK Jelly = US jell-o, not preserves/spread stuff

Still yucky IMO but makes more sense.

[Sugar Smack]

77. Well, not to steer away from the OP, but we sometimes put whipped cream on

our Jello here, so it kind of makes sense. And in the South, you've got "Ambrosia".

[Thor_MN]

129. And up here, we put all sorts of things in our "jelly" and call it salad.

Grated carrots in lime or orange jello, minature marshmellows in red jello are memories from my grandparents. My mom makes a cranberry, pineapple, ginger ale jello with a cream cheese and toasted pecan that is a holiday favorite of mine.

[Sugar Smack]

78. Well, not to steer away from the OP, but we sometimes put whipped cream on

our Jello here, so it kind of makes sense. And in the South, you've got "Ambrosia".

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. You have no ideas how awful "peanut butter and jelly" sounds to us in the UK

Even when it's explained to us that 'jelly' means 'jam' in this case, it still sounds pretty awful (but imagine jello in a sandwich ...). Ice cream and jelly makes sense - it's a sweet dessert. Mixing sweet jam/jelly and savoury peanut butter seems a strange thing to do, to me.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

107. I've never understood the peanut butter and jelly thing either, Muriel

[B3Nut]

124. Most American peanut butter is sweetened

and it just so happens that it's wonderful spread on soft, white bread or a good moist oatmeal bread and slathered with strawberry preserves or grape jam, or drizzled with honey. Food of the gods right there... :D

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[WritersBlock]

91. jelly = Jello. But still yuk n/t

[baby_mouse]

120. Not so!

Not "yuk" as you call it, but ultra niceness! Yum!

[WritersBlock]

127. Nah, that would be peanut butter & jelly/jam ;) n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

119. You have to say that with a pronounced English accent, though

"Ah-eiyce kweem'n je-ll-aiyhe"

I've had it. It is difficult to eat on a plate, but in a deep bowl, the Jelly gets covered in the cream as you chop it up to eat it, so it's kinod like Jello cubes in ice cream sauce. Blackcurrant. Mmmmmmm... :P

[fascisthunter]

25. He Learned a Valuable Lesson

He learned that these so-called religious folks are not about spirituality, but are phony egomaniacs. And that they are petty.

Tough way to learn but there it is. No wonder churches are shrinking everywhere.

[drm604]

29. Maybe the school isn't totally to blame for this.

Since his parents had requested that he not attend religious education lessons, maybe the school mistakenly assumed that they wouldn't want him to attend the Christmas party and would be upset if he did. But I will add that they should have checked with the parents first before making this assumption, so in that respect they may be at least partly to blame.

[saltpoint]

34. It's the exclusional back-of-the-hand attitude that people are objecting to, IMO.

If that arrangement was in place -- a legitimate concern -- then the school should have notified the kid's folks and had them make arrangements to pick him up.

[B Calm]

30. It is beyond doubt that Christmas was originally a pagan festival.

[saltpoint]

32. No ice cream and jelly for you, B Calm.

And we're gonna call your folks, too.

[DFW]

68. Even the Archbishop of Canterbury is on your side:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/20/nwise120.xml

It is stories like the one of this 9 year old boy that lead to what I've seen
called "Christian-Bashing." It's unfair to lump all Christians into the same
boat, but as a Texan abroad trying to represent America under Bush, I can tell
you that you had better speak up loudly and forcefully EVERY time something like
this happens if you don't want to be equated with such garbage

[Lorien]

82. Well, yeah-not many lambs born in December

Jesus was probably born closer to Easter. Christmas was placed where it was on the Calendar to compete with Winter Solstice, or so I've been told.

[Sanctified]

33. I think the school was in the right.

If the name Jesus would have been mentioned one time during this party the mother would have been all over them because she specifically said that he was not to attend any religious education.

[Echo In Light]

35. She's previously worked on xmas school functions-chances are good she's heard religious references

[DFW]

70. A party with ice cream is hardly an integral part of religious education

It's a social event, pure and simple, and denying the kid the
right to party with his ice cream and his classmates was nothing
but pure spite on the part of the asshole(s) who ordered it. Not
very Christian of him/them, but very Republican.

[porphyrian]

38. People who define themselves by who they exclude can all go fuck themselves.

That is all.

[rurallib]

39. Must be in England

Otherwise why would kids in what appears to a public school be receiving 'religious education'?
Always amazed at how cruel so-called christians can be

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Scotland, actually

n/t

[WritersBlock]

42. This originated in the Daily Mail. Believe it as much as you'd believe the National Enquirer.

On edit:

The Alternet article links to one in the Daily Mail. I wouldn't have expected that from Alternet.

[Dorian Gray]

48. Where did this happen?

...

Oh, England...


Well, were they teaching Religious Ed in their government schools?


Or was this a "public" (meaning private school) in England? Either way, it seems unnecessarily cruel to the child.

[dmallind]

52. Perfectly legal to teach RE in public/government schools

Having gone through that system, we not only had RE but morning assemblies with paryers and hymns too.

It didn't take.

[LeftishBrit]

65. Yes. But nowadays religious education is expected to include instruction about other faiths...

besides Christianity.

This wasn't the case in my day, though as far as I remember our R.E. lessons included a lot of colouring of maps of St Paul's journeys, and not an awful lot of specific indoctrination. We did have a rather nutty music teacher who told my friend, "You have to be humble to be a Christian!" but most of us just thought that this particular teacher was crazy.

[knitter4democracy]

53. If the teacher meant well, she still screwed up bigtime.

That is amazingly messed up and awful. I hope that kid gets to spend time with his friends over the break to help make up for it.

My daughter has Buddhist-Shinto friends, Jewish friends, Pagan friends, and atheist friends in her class. They sang all sorts of songs at the Christmas program, and the class party was all about the treats and a couple of cutesy crafts and giving the teacher his presents. No one was excluded, and everyone was welcome to get a sugar high.

[NoodleyAppendage]

55. How dare they refuse to be indoctrinated by the mass mythological delusion!

Who do these parents and their children think they are?! Some sort of evolved form of humanity...maybe? Well, we won't have that! We must have conformity in the social ranks so everyone believes in stupid mythological shit that perpetuates ideological conflict and spreads misery in the world!

J

[ileus]

56. someone needs to kick these peckerlips in the teeth.

[sarcasmo]

57. A kick and Nom from this Atheist. The Religious showing it's true colors.

[Cheap_Trick]

58. wonder what the fundie fuckwits would say

if they knew that their daughter's teen hearthrob Zac Efron (High School Musical) was an athiest?

[cgrindley]

59. Good thing

why the fuck would any self-respecting atheist want to go to a christmas party. Shit or get off the pot, boys.


PROTIP: Christmas = Christ Mass

[ima_sinnic]

84. oh yeah--xmas is soooo religious. I notice there is no "religious test"

for spending money at Wal-Mart for the crap-o-rama that "christ mass" has become.

poor widdle "christians"--those goddam atheists have stolen "their" holiday, which has zero correlation with any historical event.

newsflash: your mythical "jesus," if he existed at all, was not born in december. there were no "wise men." and as for the "virgin birth"--:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

sheesh. what "christmas spirit." christians can take "christ mass" and shove it.

oh, happy holidays. don't choke on your eggnog.

[cgrindley]

94. I don't celebrate Christmas

For one, I don't support Hallmark holidays. For two, I wouldn't dream of sullying someone else's religious observance with my presence. I limit my critiques of religion to those occasions when people want debate and dissent--not by going out of my way to offend at actual religious events and festivals and whatnots. Let the Christians keep their Christmas sacred. The vast number of them are utter sanctimonious overly commercialized hypocrites.

And yeah... your points are all valid... but NO ONE who has any training in divinity believes in the December, wise men or virgin birth. Jesus, by the way, wasn't mythical. He did exist. Just perhaps not in the same way that most people think. I believe that he was somewhere in between how the Thomas people describe him and how he's depicted in the Babylonian Talmud. But Jesus certainly lived. There's no doubt about that. At least not from anyone with more than half a brain and a few years of education.

[Initech]

61. Man if I were that kids' parents I would be suing that district into the ground.

So he was kicked out because of his beliefs. If it were a religious school I would understand but a public school, that would make my blood boil.

[Va Lefty]

62. From "Hannah and Her Sisters"...

"If Jesus came back and saw what was going on in his name, he would never stop throwing up!"

[Sugar Smack]

74. You have just posted one of my favorite movie lines ever!!!

:loveya:

[LeftishBrit]

64. I doubt VERY much that this story happened as described

(1) On going through the links, it seems to originate with the Daily Mail, which is a VERY unreliable and sensational tabloid. Admittedly, they usually go for stories in which atheists or Muslims can be presented as oppressing the poor Christians; but they could be prepared to do the reverse if it gives them a way to smear Modern Teachers in Modern State Schools.

(2) British state primary schools generally celebrate the festivals of multiple faiths, though the timing of vacations tends to based around Christian holidays; and do not demand that children show allegiance to a particular faith. Even church-aided schools, though they may bias their selection of pupils towards those of a particular faith, usually include some of other faiths or none, and would not be permitted to discriminate against them in this way. It is, I suppose, possible that an independent 'faith school' *might* act like this; but then the school could not be described as 'council-run'.

(3) This goes against most aspects of British culture. According to recent surveys, only 50% of Brits claim to 'believe in God' even in the vaguest sense; and only 33% actually practice any religion. This child would not have been the only non-believing child in the class in any ordinary state school.

It is POSSIBLE that the headteacher here is a religious nut and control freak who did these things; if so, then he is acting against current laws and guidelines on education, and could probably be sued. But something doesn't 'smell right' here to me; and I suspect that the child, the parents and/or the tabloid have misrepresented something. My best guess is that the child or his parents had at first said he would not be attending the party because he didn't believe in Christmas; and that they then later tried to change their minds about the party and were told that it was too late. But there could be any number of other explanations, from the child being excluded from the party for misbehaviour that he doesn't want to admit, to a simple (or less simple!) administrative mix-up.

[Cha]

67. This is looks like

a case of vengence to me. You're either with us or against us.

Fiddle Faddle and Rot..the headmaster forgot the true meaning of Christmas but it's so typical of these hypocrites.

[smoogatz]

69. Well, there you go.

As Ghandi said, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[robbedvoter]

72. Christmas was under attack - had to defend itself! Them sneaky heathens

want the presents but not the suffering!

[Patsy Stone]

80. Originally from The Scotsman:

http://news.scotsman.com/aberdeen/Boy-banned-from-school39s-festive.3615286.jp

[SmokingJacket]

81. Very nasty, but Britain is different from us.

The Queen is actually head of the church of England. There is no separation of church and state.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. But Scotland is slightly different

The Queen is not the head of the Church of Scotland - just a member; and the CofS is separate from government, though it is called the 'national church'. See http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/organisation/orgqueen.htm

[saltpoint]

88. What Would Good King Wenceslas Do?

Good King Wenceslas looked out on the feast of Stephen,
When the snow lay round about, deep and crisp and even;
Brightly shone the moon that night, tho' the frost was cruel,
When a poor man came in sight gath'ring winter fuel.

"Hither, page, and stand by me, if thou know'st it, telling,
Yonder peasant, who is he? Where and what his dwelling?"
"Sire, he lives a good league hence, underneath the mountain;
Right against the forest fence, by Saint Agnes' fountain."

"Bring me flesh, and bring me wine, bring me pine logs hither:
Thou and I will see him dine, when we bear them thither."
Page and monarch, forth they went, forth they went together;
Through the rude wind's wild lament and the bitter weather.

"Sire, the night is darker now, and the wind blows stronger;
Fails my heart, I know not how, I can go no longer."
"Mark my footsteps, my good page. Tread thou in them boldly:
Thou shalt find the winter's rage freeze thy blood less coldly."

In his master's steps he trod, where the snow lay dinted;
Heat was in the very sod which the saint had printed.
Therefore, Christian men, be sure, wealth or rank possessing,
Ye who now will bless the poor, shall yourselves find blessing.

_ _ _ _

Given that the lyrics endorse charity toward the poor rather than the disenfranchised, it is also so that in most times the disenfranchised are disenfranchised because they are poor. For other reasons also of course, but not least, because they live in poverty.

[Swamp Rat]

92. Old Crusoe

This is why I love to read your posts: often it is like discovering a precious gem that was naturally smoothed by fine silt and sand, hidden amongst rough, run-of-the-mill rocks in a vast ocean.

[saltpoint]

93. Swamp Rat! Here a good chance to wish you a happy holidays season

and a good 2008 as well.

Those aren't easy goals in George Bush's America, that's for sure, but if anybody around here can pull it off, it's probably you. I hope things are well your way. Congrats again on recent and extremely impressive academic accomplishments.

The headmaster, seems to me, had a solvable problem in front of him and he dropped the ball.

If the mom didn't wanted her kid to particpate in the Christmas parties, that's her call, and the headmaster & classroom teacher just need to know about her wishes. Then, if there's a party on the docket she'd prefer the kid skip, arrangements can be made to pick him up and whisk him back home that day where he can WORSHIP SATAN AT HIS HEART'S CONTENT!!

I don't like gangsters much but saw to THE GODFATHER films and lived to tell about it. I think they could have rustled up a little ice cream for the racalcitrant heathen. Sheesh.

[walldude]

89. Headmaster?

"but in the town it was well known when they got home at night their fat and psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives!!!

We don't need no education indeed...

[OneBlueSky]

90. damned Christian of 'em, don'tcha think? . . .

:sarcasm:

[rucky]

97. What a missed opportunity for the school...

That kid will never be a believer now. Count on it.

[saltpoint]

99. I've emailed this link and The Scotsman link to a lot of folks overnight

and overwhelmingly, they think the kid ought to have had some damn ice cream.

For many, it came down to characterizing the headmaster's position as, "If you don't love Jesus, you don't get ice cream."

Several contacts wanted to know why anyone would put jelly on ice cream.

Most, though, read down and saw that it meant "jello" and not say, grape jelly. And then they went on to ask why anyone would put Jello on ice cream.

This was a major sticking point in the discussion.

Once they finally got past the gastronomic implications, they resolved in overwhelming numbers to stuff Headmaster Davidson into the mouth of a polar bear. Among the stuff-Davidson respondents are two Roman Catholics and one hard-core Presbyterian.

[Swamp Rat]

104. "Once they finally got past the gastronomic implications."

:rofl: :rofl: "they resolved in overwhelming numbers to stuff Headmaster Davidson into the mouth of a polar bear." :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My fat stomach is jigglin' like jello right now. :rofl: :rofl:

[saltpoint]

105. Hey there. I hope you are having a couple of free hours to relax and

enjoy yourself here at year's end.

From what I'm guessing of many previous months' work, you've truly earned it.

Thanks for the good will you've offered on a couple of these posts here today, Swamp Rat.

Much appreciated.

[Swamp Rat]

108. Though I won't get it, I need at least a month of relaxation to make up for all the sleep I've lost.

Your post above really cracked me up! :D I needed a laugh after reading all the vitriol thrown at me by my fellow DUers on another thread for defending art and artists against the overwhelming tide of mechanized consumer products designed to replace real creativity:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2517198

I was personally insulted by folks who called in to question my musicianship without even knowing the truth. If they had, instead insulting me, participated in a more meaningful conversation, they might truly understand what I was trying tell them. So sad. So unfortunate. Preferring computerized boxes in lieu of real musical activities and training, they will never know the auricular beauty or feel the buzzing reed on their tongues while playing the bassoon solo in the opening of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring." They will never feel the tangible vibrations of ebony and ivory while playing gliding dominant 7th chords in Debussy's "Sunken Cathedral." They will never know the joy I feel after completing my own transcriptions and arrangements, and then performing Bach's "Cello Suite III" or Albeniz's "Asturias" on a classical guitar, for example.

It's amazing that how so many people do not see where we are headed as a society, as if they were blinded by electronic spectacle. Though my expectations are not really that high, I am nevertheless starting to lose faith in this message board as a meeting place for intellectually stimulating conversation. Granted, my expectations may be affected by the fact that music is very important to me personally. ;)

[saltpoint]

109. Well, it would be fun to jam one of these days. I'd have to dust off a few

licks on the keyboard, but at one time I could plunk out a Bach Prelude and Fugue, the Beethoven 3rd Piano Concerto, and a Chopin Scherzo or two.

My ear wanted Rachmaninoff but you have to have giant hands. Rachmaninoff is to pianists as John Holmes s to X-rated films. Size matters in those two fields.

I grew up split between the tactile thrill of live performance and the monk-like clockwork atmosphere of studio recording. People who taught me music prefered the attitude of the latter as a path to the former.

You do deserve some time off. Play some music -- maybe even a lot of music -- and then put your favorite artists on to flood your skull. Electroshock therapy is still a treatment modality in many psychiatric care facilities, but it's quite plausible, IMO, that a headset tied to The Who's "Behind Blue Eyes," or Joni Mitchell's "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter," or Miles Davis' SKETCHES OF SPAIN could work the same transformation.

Anyway, you know what you like and what comes next. Do whatever it takes.

[Swamp Rat]

110. "no one knows what it's like to feel these feelings..."

I'm a bad boy: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2517198&mesg_id=2522214 :spank:

Yeah, one needs Rachmaninoff-sized hands like Vladimir Horowitz. Ooh, how I love the Russians! After I studied "Principles of Orchestration" by Rimsky-Korsakov I became even more enamoured with the Russians, especially Shostakovich. We were so lucky to have his son as our conductor for many years here in NOLA before the symphony closed for good. :cry:

"Play some music" is great advice. I had a 2 hour rehearsal with my samba band today in Audubon Park - what a lovely day! I am going to take out my classical guitar in a few minues to work on some bossa nova, after I finish my portuguese practice (I'm online with a Brazilian right now, fazendo lições).

The last time I listened to Davis do "Sketches of Spain" I was in San Francisco walking down the Presidio... Speaking of Spain, when I was in Toledo earlier this year I listened to De Falla while walking around the ancient, wonderous city; I love the memories that I attach to my listening experiences... like looking at Goya while listening to De Falla or Narváez while looking at Velasquez paintings. When I came upon Picasso's "Guernica," I played Camerón de la Isla and Paco de Lucia performing bulerias and tarantas.

Though I have embarked upon a new path of becoming a scientist, I live and breathe music. I did not know you were a musician - I am so glad to know this. What other types of music do you like?

[saltpoint]

111. Good god, you went to Spain. Those screams you are hearing are

screams of jealousy. And also admiration. It sounds like you know how to "soundtrack" your travels, too.

Picasso's "GUERNICA" deserves that music. That painting is a cosmic kick in the belly.

(a bit off-topic, but if you haven't read Simon Schama's THE POWER OF ART, maybe look into it at the library. It is a fine, fine thing. I think you might find Schama a spirit brother.)

Can't think of a bad place to hear Miles' SKETCHES, but also can't think of a better one than several venues in San Francisco. A wildly secular city named for a long-ago saint. Just the explosive mix Miles' music needs and likes.

If I have but a few hours left on earth, I guess I'd like to hear the Rach 3rd, Duke Ellington's "Paris Concerts", Jackson Browne's "I Thought I Was a Child," Petula Clark's "Don't Sleep in the Subway," the Holst folksong suites in E-flat and F, Faure's "Pavanne," the Brahms Intermezzo in A Major, some Simon & Garfunkel generally and "The Boxer" especially, Doc Watson doing just about anything, some select Lou Reed, the Stones with "Wild Horses," several from Laura Nyro (maybe "Captain for Dark Mornings"), Joni Mitchell, a pile of madrigals, Stevie Wonder's "Golden Lady," some of the Randall Thompson appropriations from Robert Frost, Gordon Lightfoot doing "Miguel," and Livingston Taylor's "Lost in the Love of You."

But I'm flexible. When I type one work in, dozens more come to mind that I care about also. I know you've been there, too.

I'm not remembering that you were such an accomplished musician. Artists of various kinds are a lot like scientists of various kinds -- there is a high element of concentration and long-term vision involved. Some setbacks, but also some incredible moments of insight and clarity and exaltation.

[Swamp Rat]

113. LOL!

Yeah, I am fortunate I have a brother who lives in downtown Madrid. I also traveled to Basque country for the fist time (Bilbao, San Sebastian, etc.), as I had never been west of Cataluña before (I lived for a short time in La Seu de Urgell). Allow me to make you even more jealous; I ate in many special places during that trip. When I was in Segovia, I ate at the famous Casa Candido, situated a few meters from a giant Roman aqueduct. For the past millenia, the kings of Spain, starting with Alfonso "El Sabio" ate at that restaurant. Owned by one family since that time, they use the same recipes recorded in a Medaeval manuscript. I had the exact same meal as Alfonso: el cochonillo - baby pig. It is so tender they cut it with a plate, right before your eyes. Another place where I ate was el Botin de Madrid: http://www.casabotin.com/INGindex.html I sat and ate in the same place as Lope de Vega, Cervantes, Goya, Hemingway, and many others, while serenaded by a renaissance music group.

I just found "Landscape and Memory" and "Citizens : a chronicle of the French Revolution" by Schama at my university library. I suppose I'll have to buy "The Power or Art."

On San Francisco: while I "spound-tracked" my few months of living there with the likes of Davis and Corea, I mostly listened to Wes Montgomery and Chet Baker. I also spent many nights performing on the street in front of Vesuvio's, where Jack Kerouac and other famous Beat poets hung out... so I quite often provided my own sound track. :D

Speaking of Simon and Garfunkel, I stayed up VERY late last night in order to watch "The Graduate" on AMC. :boring: .. love dat movie. :loveya:

Yes, I am a musician and an aspiring scientist, and will likely have many more setbacks in life. How 'bout you?

[saltpoint]

114. Ok, I'm well past jealous now and well into blind rage. Now, I'm screaming

even louder and throwing objects out the window. The lamp. The end stand. The computer. The dog. Three or four neighborhood kids. The lid off the toilet tank.

Your travel in Spain sounds like a story told instead of reality, with the difference being that you truly lived it. Good god. And with kinfolk in the heart of Madrid. Someday I'd like to see that dish cut with a plate's edge and take the train between Madrid and Barcelona. Hadrian was Spanish. He's among my favorite people living or dead. And I'm an Almodovar addict in current times.

Wes and Chet will get a person through the densest fog in the Bay Area. Very good choices. Of the two, Baker's music speaks more to me on a personal level, but how resourceful for you to play music yourself where the Beats congregated. Now help me out -- I don't know Vesuvio's. I know The Stinking Rose restaurant, I know City Lights Bookshop -- but can't visualize Vesuvio's.

THE GRADUATE is a fine thing. And yes -- that soundtrack is terrific. Bancroft does Mrs. Robinson so well there likely wasn't any point of anyone else auditioning for the role, and Dustin Hoffman is frighteningly chameleon-like. MIDNIGHT COWBOY was a world-changing film for me. I'm not even sure how I survived it psychologically, never mind how Dustin Hoffman ever escaped from Ratso Rico back into being Dustin Hoffman.

Mostly I spend time dissolving mySelf into things that survive a long time. So the dish prepared from the Medieval menu specifications sounds exhilarating to this generally lackluster Midwesterner. I shoot up music and film and reading, and would live in an art museum if they'd let me.

[Swamp Rat]

115. HAHAHA!!!

"The lid off the toilet tank." :rofl: Now go wash your hands! :D

Yeah, they're located just off Fuencarral, a few minues from Gran Via. Another 10 minutes or so to the Prado, a few more to south to Sofia Reina (OMG! They have dozens of Miró and Juan Gris, one of my favs), or a few more minutes walking in the other direction to Plaza del Sol. ¡Me encanta! :loveya:

Almodóvar, as in the film maker? "¡Átame!" ;)

Vesuvio is just a few meters from City Lights on Columbus Ave. They're practically next door to each other.

"Midnight Cowboy" is an amazing film. Dustin played the character "Ratso" so well it's as if he WAS Ratso. Yeah, I LOVED that pitiful character.

You surprise me. I did not think you are a Midwesterner. I guess I am limited by my own stereotypology. Shame on me. :spank:

Sorry to get back to this conversation so late, but my portuguese lesson/conversation ended up lasting 2 hours (hard to do this sort of thing by phone). I need to spend at least this amount of time to remain fluent. Often when I am posting here on DU I am also doing something else at the same time, but foreign language practice requires 100% of my energy and attention. As for museums and art, they are my passions. All the women in my family are professional artists, and a few of the men as well. My earliest childhood memories are of Lincoln Center, the Museum of Natural History, and dozens of other museums and galleries.

[saltpoint]

121. Well, I need to get a map of the city next time I'm there. The Bay Area is

loaded with wonderful places. Anybody with a sense of 'place' ought to stand a pretty good chance of loving that entire area.

Midwest-born, but an always-moving, rambling-around fool. Some awfully good years in NYC and Berkeley and other places, travel to Europe and Mexico especially.

Don't know how old you were when you first went into all those museums, or if you went on your own power or if someone introduced you to them, but THAT was the right way to begin a life.

I will explore more of Juan Gris. There are so many gaps in my learning. And they always widen. Thus the gods play with us.

Yes, the film-maker. He's outrageous for some tastes, but the narratives and visual field are so compelling. At times he's like Hitchcock on shrooms. Robert Bly says Spanish poetry "leaps" associatively to distinguish it from most other cultures' art. Pedro's leaps are often full ballets.

I love that you are learning what James Taylor, of all people, called "the romantic language of the Portuguese" (from his song "Only a Dream in Rio" : in which he praises the culture there as being "...more than the concrete Christ"). If U.S. voters continue to have their heads up their hindends and elect Giuliani or Romney or Huckabee, you can split to a land like Brazil and likely do better. After 7-8 years of the Bush administration, you might not be the only one in line to buy a plane ticket out.

[Swamp Rat]

128. 'Hitchcock on shrooms'

That phrase elicited further response on my part... and we think Hieronymus Bosch was 'out there' due to consuming ergot of rye. :D

I, too, dig Spanish poetry. When I attended the Universidad de Costa Rica (I lived there on and off for a few years) I was exposed to a lot of Spanish poetry, like Pablo Neruda, which gave me a better vantage point for appreciating Spanish film. In fact, after my last response to you above I left cyberspace to go watch the Spanish movie "El Espíritu de la colmena" ("The Spirit of the Beehive" 1973) with Fernando Fernán Gómez, the famous Spanish actor who played Manolo in one of my favorite movies, "Belle epoque." Once I was able to understand and speak Spanish well enough to watch these movies in their native idiom, my appreciation grew exponentially.

You've broadened my view of James Taylor, and now I must seek out this song. :D Português is my all-time favorite language to speak and hear. Though I have a strong academic background in Spanish, as well as more years speaking the language, I took to Portuguese incredibly fast because I adore it so; it's as if I was a Brazilian in my last life. When I lived in Brazil, after the first month I was already speaking the language somewhat fluently. By the time I enrolled in a course at a university in the Northeast a couple of months later, I was able to carry on long, meaningful conversations. Admittedly, the course was very easy since it concerned jazz theory applied to guitar, and I already understood that language to a high degree. ;)

On the more sober topic of U.S. politics: My experience in New Orleans before, during, and after Katrina made me realise I need to consider the necessity of really leaving this country for good. I learned that my government and the majority of its citizens have no problem letting my city be destroyed and our people left to die. I came back to the USA after living in Brazil because I wanted to become more actively involved in national politics in order to save this country from the Bushler regime. Then along comes Katrina. I remain in New Orleans at this time because I love it so, and because it is my birthplace, but if and when things become untenable I will leave for good. There is no other place in the USA where I want to live. I already have escape plans, and they lead to Rio de Janeiro.

[saltpoint]

131. --

"It's alright; you can stay asleep
You can close your eyes
You can trust the people of paradise
To call your keep and tender your goodbye's...

O what a night
Wonderful, one-in-a-million night
Frozen fire, Brazilian stars
O holy Southern Cross! ..."

Here's a web posting of the tune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOB8rk-62Pw

On the strength of your recommendation, I will try to hunt down and rent and watch "El Espíritu de la colmena". I've read references to it but haven't seen it yet.

If ever I could learn Spanish -- and I know very, very little of it now...enough maybe to navigate through a bus station from Monterrey to San Miguel de Allende -- and enough to order a Sol beer -- I would tap it to read, in the original Spanish, Gabriel GARCIA Marquez's CIEN ANOS DE SOLEDAD. Even in English, it is virtuoso language and a tale close to my heart, although I'm a stranger to those people and that land. It's practical for your considerations and possible plans to lead to Rio de Janeiro but how keen an ear you must have for the spoken tongue there. With a growing, instinctive ken for the language, Swamp Rat, you will need less reaction time to make a big change in case White House politics goes awry for us in November.

[PeaceNikki]

100. Until he accepts that Santa died on the cross for his gifts...

He's fucked.

[RedCappedBandit]

106. My, how "christian" of them. ha. nt

[madeline_con]

112. This is rich...

"... received presents from Santa and tucked into ice cream and jelly."


"... celebrate the birth of Christ."

I can only say :wtf:

[GA_ArmyVet]

122. Sorry,I hate to disagree with her

but Christmas has everything to do with the birth of Christ, although that may be forgotten by many this season. Further you cant have it both ways and prevent discussion of Religion at school functions and then get mad because the school acted on your written wishes to not let you child attend a "Christ"mas celebration. If she wanted him to go she could have called the school and made her wishes known and exempted him on this occasion. It is amazing to me how people so carelessly abandon their principles because it stopped them from doing something they wanted to do, but stick by them in order to not do something someone else wants to do. Alright Flame away, just my opinion.

[saltpoint]

123. I think it's a long leap from Luke's manger-scene narrative to a dish of

ice cream.

It was a solvable problem and the headmaster dropped the ball.

[ima_sinnic]

125. what a pantload! Christmas has "everything to do w the birth of Christ"??

so how does Santa Claus fit in to the "birth of Christ"? was he one of the mythical "Wise Men"?
more importantly, how does the Wal-Mart crap-o-rama that is known as "Christmas" fit in to the "birth of Christ"? If it is about the "birth of christ," why is it not restricted to churches? why does it fill the malls, billboards, TV, and every other form of media? "Birth of Christ" my arse!!
and only those who "believe in" JC can "come to the party"? Wasn't JC alleged to be tolerant and kind toward everyone? Wasn't it he who said, suffer the little children to come unto me? I'm sure he'd be real proud of how his "birthday" is "celebrated" by stingy a-holes who try to limit the "celebration" to only those who "believe in" the myth after ensuring that every sector of society would be permeated by the crass consumerism of it.
what a load of crap. "Christmas" sucks. It is nothing but buy buy buy, spend spend spend. The antithesis of JC.
oh, and by the way, JC was not born in December. As for the "virgin birth": :rofl: :rofl:

[GA_ArmyVet]

130. He was not banned from the party

because he does not believe in Jesus, He was removed because his mother requested NO RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES. Now regardless of how commercialized Christmas has become it is a religious holiday. If the School Principal had taken him to the party she would have been up in arms about that. I am not saying you have to believe to go to the party. I am saying that if you request that your child not be included in Religious activities, then you have no right to get upset when they obeyed your request. If she wanted him to go the party she could have authorized it.