How can Russel Means, an activist, not official, of the Lakota, withdraw from treaties?

[Bucky]

How exactly can an activist "declare independence" and withdraw from treaty obligations and talk about issuing passports and driver's licences when the government of the Lakota is doing no such thing?

I'm sympathetic to the cause, but it looks like we're getting typical American media oversimplification and misinformation here. It's fun to hype this story and it might keep people hooked into what a failure Iraq is and how fragile and degenerative our economy is. But it's not a real declaration of independence. This is a few activists' call to action, not a crisis of sovereignty.

Am I missing something?

[Buzz Clik]

1. Interesting question.

Perhaps we could see if Ward Churchill (of University of Colorado fame) could shed some light on the subject. He's 0.00001% Native American after all.

[Bucky]

2. I have no doubt Ward Churchill will get in on this. But he's a side show.

Means, if a bit of a ham sometimes, is a serious player here. Churchill is a side show and a shallow thinker. Means is a man of parts and should be listened to. I only question where his authority to act lies... and I wonder how much good info we're getting on a story with a lot of potential for emotion distraction.

[genie_weenie]

3. Individualism vs Government

Does Russell Means need a Representative to comminucate with the US Government? How did the Founders get their positions to decide the future history of all persons born under the auspices of the United States?

[Bucky]

4. Good question.

The Founders declared independence as authorized representatives of the 13 state governments--all of which were elected by democratic means. The decision for independence happened after more than a year's discussion between Congress and the state governments over the nature of the confederation. The US Declaration did not come from a "self created society" (a term George Washington coined to describe the rise of political parties 15 years later).

An activist group, or any interest group, has the right to denounce bad treaties and dishonored treaties (which US-Lakota treaties certainly are), but they don't have the authority to withdraw them. They don't represent a signatory party to the treaty. In fact, Means ran for President of the Lakota earlier this year and lost.

[Kucinich4America]

16. A guy who lost an election, withdrawing from treaties??

Nah, that could never happen in this country, could it?

[Bucky]

41. !!!

good point! :rofl:

[Rosco T.]

5. You know, you really should investigate more before you dismiss...

http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/1220-02.htm?loc=interstitialskip

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
DECEMBER 20, 2007
9:02 AM

CONTACT: Lakota Freedom
Naomi Archer, Communications Liaison
[phone]
[email protected] or [email protected]

Freedom! Lakota Sioux Indians Declare Sovereign Nation Status
Threaten Land Liens, Contested Real Estate Over Five State Area in U.S.West Dakota Territory Reverts back to Lakota Control According to U.S., International Law

WASHINGTON, DC - December 20 - Lakota Sioux Indian representatives declared sovereign nation status today in Washington D.C. following Monday's withdrawal from all previously signed treaties with the United States Government. The withdrawal, hand delivered to Daniel Turner, Deputy Director of Public Liaison at the State Department, immediately and irrevocably ends all agreements between the Lakota Sioux Nation of Indians and the United States Government outlined in the 1851 and 1868 Treaties at Fort Laramie Wyoming.

"This is an historic day for our Lakota people," declared Russell Means, Itacan of Lakota. "United States colonial rule is at its end!"

"Today is a historic day and our forefathers speak through us. Our Forefathers made the treaties in good faith with the sacred Canupa and with the knowledge of the Great Spirit," shared Garry Rowland from Wounded Knee. "They never honored the treaties, that's the reason we are here today."

The four member Lakota delegation traveled to Washington D.C. culminating years of internal discussion among treaty representatives of the various Lakota communities. Delegation members included well known activist and actor Russell Means, Women of All Red Nations (WARN) founder Phyllis Young, Oglala Lakota Strong Heart Society leader Duane Martin Sr., and Garry Rowland, Leader Chief Big Foot Riders. Means, Rowland, Martin Sr. were all members of the 1973 Wounded Knee takeover.

"In order to stop the continuous taking of our resources – people, land, water and children- we have no choice but to claim our own destiny," said Phyllis Young, a former Indigenous representative to the United Nations and representative from Standing Rock.

Property ownership in the five state area of Lakota now takes center stage. Parts of North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana have been illegally homesteaded for years despite knowledge of Lakota as predecessor sovereign . Lakota representatives say if the United States does not enter into immediate diplomatic negotiations, liens will be filed on real estate transactions in the five state region, clouding title over literally thousands of square miles of land and property.

Young added, "The actions of Lakota are not intended to embarrass the United States but to simply save the lives of our people".

Following Monday's withdrawal at the State Department, the four Lakota Itacan representatives have been meeting with foreign embassy officials in order to hasten their official return to the Family of Nations.

Lakota's efforts are gaining traction as Bolivia, home to Indigenous President Evo Morales, shared they are "very, very interested in the Lakota case" while Venezuela received the Lakota delegation with "respect and solidarity."

"Our meetings have been fruitful and we hope to work with these countries for better relations," explained Garry Rowland. "As a nation, we have equal status within the national community."

Education, energy and justice now take top priority in emerging Lakota. "Cultural immersion education is crucial as a next step to protect our language, culture and sovereignty," said Means. "Energy independence using solar, wind, geothermal, and sugar beets enables Lakota to protect our freedom and provide electricity and heating to our people."

The Lakota reservations are among the most impoverished areas in North America, a shameful legacy of broken treaties and apartheid policies. Lakota has the highest death rate in the United States and Lakota men have the lowest life expectancy of any nation on earth, excluding AIDS, at approximately 44 years. Lakota infant mortality rate is five times the United States average and teen suicide rates 150% more than national average. 97% of Lakota people live below the poverty line and unemployment hovers near 85%.

"After 150 years of colonial enforcement, when you back people into a corner there is only one alternative," emphasized Duane Martin Sr. "The only alternative is to bring freedom into its existence by taking it back to the love of freedom, to our lifeway."

We are the freedom loving Lakota from the Sioux Indian reservations of Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana who have traveled to Washington DC to withdraw from the constitutionally mandated treaties to become a free and independent country. We are alerting the Family of Nations we have now reassumed our freedom and independence with the backing of Natural, International, and United States law. For more information, please visit our new website at www.lakotafreedom.com.

[hlthe2b]

6. thank you.... I knew this had gone through the tribal council

leadership and thus had authority behind it.... I'm surprised that people dismiss Russel Means as though he were a mere rabble rouser....:eyes:

[EFerrari]

11. He is a rabble rouser. A really good one.

And he's been working on this for at least a quarter of a century. The man doesn't give up. :)

[KittyWampus]

21. He's been working for his own personal gain. He threw in with the GOP and screwed over

his own people.

[paulk]

26. I wonder how many people realized he campaigned for Thune?

That's why I don't think much of him...

[shance]

29. Who is "Thune" and why don't you elaborate for individuals?

So they can better decide for themselves?

[paulk]

31. John Thune is the Republican Senator from South Dakota

who gained that office by defeating Tom Daschle in 2004. Russel Means campaigned for Thune in that election and it's not unlikely that that's what cost Daschle the election. The Lakota traditionally vote around 85% Dem, a few percentage points difference, like those provided by Mean's influence, would be enough to swing an election in S. Dakota, which is otherwise Republican.

[shance]

32. So what does this have to do with the issue at hand?

n/t

[paulk]

36. you asked me a question and I answered it

I took you off "ignore" to do so, so beyond that, I'm not interested in talking to you.

[EFerrari]

27. "What color is the sky in your world, Norm?"

Means has always been a loose cannon who also managed to get more done than most people. Deal with it.

[WilliamPitt]

54. I don't see his post as "dismissing" the issue

"Am I missing something?"

Demonstrably. Thankfully, you came up with his missing information. Thankfully, he asked for it. Nicely done.

:toast:

[paulk]

7. he can't, really - he represents a breakaway group and as

such doesn't represent the entire tribe. He's run for president of the entire tribe several times and didn't win.

The "official" leadership has already rejected this.

[Rosco T.]

8. Document that please. n/m

[paulk]

9. which part?

This is from the OP's linked article, but I read this somewhere else today also - can't remember where.

"I want to emphasize, we do not represent the collaborators, the Vichy Indians and those tribal governments set up by the United States of America to ensure our poverty, to ensure the theft of our land and resources," Means said, comparing elected tribal governments to Nazi collaborators in France during World War II.

Rodney Bordeaux, chairman of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, said his community has no desire to join the breakaway nation. Means and his group, which call themselves the Lakota Freedom Delegation, have never officially pitched their views to the Rosebud community, Bordeaux said.

"Our position on that is we need to uphold the treaties, and we're constantly reminding Congress of that message," Bordeaux said. "We're pushing to maintain and to keep the treaties there because they're the basis of our relationship with the federal government."


Means running for Tribal president and being defeated is common knowledge - do you need a cite for that?


-------------


Means himself, in the first paragraph, admits he doesn't represent the tribal government.

[Didereaux]

10. He CANNOT! He is simply the Indian version of Jesse Jackson, a leech on his own people n/t

[EFerrari]

12. I'll always be grateful to the Reverend Jackson for helping us

get the UC Regents to divest their South African holdings during Apartheid. It was a huge victory for us and he was instrumental in the process.

[Cha]

22. What an informed,

sweet response to something that wasn't too nice.

[Didereaux]

35. Yeah, what a blow for Civil Rights! while the fruitcakes in SF were...

busy fighting apartheid in South Africa via symbolism the fucking assholes were quite literally supporting the same(by looking the other way) across the bay in Oakland, Richmond, Alameda, San Leandro, HAyward. Yeah, tell us all how the touchy-feelies of SF and that creep Jesse Jackson made a difference...only to the ones delusions, and the others piggy bank.

[EFerrari]

37. Um, that was in Berkeley and there was nothing symbolic

about the University's investments in South Africa.

[EFerrari]

40. UC Divestment, just for Didereaux.

University campuses

The anti-Apartheid disinvestment campaign on campuses, which has existed for quite some time without gaining any significant traction, surged into action in 1984 on the wave of public interest created by the wide television coverage of the then recent resistance efforts of the black South Africans.

Students organized to demand that their universities "divest", meaning that the universities were to cease investing in companies that traded or had operations in South Africa. At many universities, many students and faculty protested in order to force action on the issue. For example, in April, 1986, 61 students were arrested after building a shantytown in front of the chancellor's office at UC Berkeley. <5>

As a result of these organized "divestment campaigns", the boards of trustees of several prominent universities voted to divest completely from South Africa and companies with major South African interests.

The first of these was Hampshire College.

Harvard University only undertook a partial "divestment" from South Africa and only after significant resistance.<6> Adam Soften and Aln Wirzbicki give this description:

"Throughout the ‘80s, Harvard professors for the most part avoided involvement with South Africa in protest of apartheid, and then president Derek C. Bok was a vocal supporter of work by the U.S. to prompt reform in South Africa. But the University was slow to pull its own investments out of companies doing business in South Africa, insisting that through its proxy votes, it could more effectively fight apartheid than by purging stocks from its portfolio. But after a decade of protests, Harvard did adopt a policy of selective divestment, and by the end of the ‘80s was almost completely out of South Africa."<6>

University of California, in contrast to the limited action undertaken by Harvard, authorized the withdrawal of three billion dollars worth of investments from the apartheid state. Nelson Mandela has stated his belief that the University of California's massive divestment was particularly significant in abolishing white-minority rule in South Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa#University_campuses

[Didereaux]

44. Yes, yes Mandela is a nice fella and UCBerk is East Bay, none of which addresses the specifics of...

what I wrote in the OP. I was addressing the West Bay and Marin touchy-feelies and Jesse Jackson. Whether or not divestment caused the overturn of apartheid can be argued strongly that it was only a factor...but it is a RED HERRING in the issue of which I address namely: that certain kneejerkers were far more active in foreign matters and ignored the bad conditions under their nosegayed noses.

Argue all you want, but Jesse Jackson never did spit compared even to the Black Panthers. Jackson is a leech, and Russell Means is a leech!

That is my position and it is founded upon actually seeing what got done in a couple of areas.

lets agree to disagree on this okay...and let the historians sort it out.

[EFerrari]

45. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just illustrating how wrong you are.

Oh, and this San Franciso "fruitcake" lived in the East Bay for nearly fifteen years. My children went to public school and I taught all over Oakland.

Sorry to explode your stereotype.

[marmar]

14. A leech on his own people?

As a member of Jesse Jackson's "own people," I don't really think you know what the f**k you're talking about.

[Didereaux]

33. well, tell you what sonny...

I was fighting for civil rights in the early 60's(were you even born?). I was in Mississippi in '64. I got to see the REAL leaders, and Jackson wasn't ever one of them. Always trying to suck funds from others and get his mug on TV. Remember all his running around the world? Gonna solve the mid-east crisis, gonna solve world hunger, gonna solve this or that....all he really was doing way using those things as 'cash cows'. Nothing has changed He and the Al Sharptons ought to be forced to polish the gravestones of MLK and X, and Hooker and many others, every day for the rest of their lives.

[Kucinich4America]

17. Why do I get the feeling you don't know shit about Russell Means OR Jesse Jackson?

Except what you hear on FAUX Noise. Talk about leeches....

[KittyWampus]

20. I get the feeling YOU don't know shit about Russell Means. He's a misogynist asshole

who hangs tight with Republicans when it suits his own personal agenda.

He's so pathetic he couldn't deal with having a woman lead the Lakota.

[EFerrari]

28. And that would make him unique in American politics. n/t

[Didereaux]

34. EXACTLY!

[walldude]

38. Funny... I've been called a misogynist asshole for not backing Hillary

I guess he and I have some things in common. Obviously he and I just hate women and have no valid reasons why we wouldn't support them :eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

55. Yikes.

Here, I can help.

===

In 1965, Jesse Jackson participated in Martin Luther King, Jr.’s movement in Selma, Alabama. When Jackson returned from Selma, he threw himself into King’s effort to establish a beachhead of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) in Chicago. In 1966, King selected Jackson to be head of the SCLC’s Operation Breadbasket in Chicago, and promoted him to be the national director in 1967. Following the example of Reverend Leon Sullivan of Philadelphia, a key goal of the new group was to foster “selective buying” (boycotts) as a means to pressure white businesses to hire blacks and purchase goods and services from black contractors. One of Sullivan's precursors was Dr. T.R.M. Howard, a wealthy South Side doctor and entrepreneur and key financial contributor to Operation Breadbasket. Before he moved to Chicago from Mississippi in 1956, Howard, as the head of the Regional Council of Negro Leadership, had successfully organized a boycott against service stations that refused to provide restrooms for blacks.

Jackson was present with King in Memphis when he was assassinated on April 4, 1968, the day after making his famous "I’ve been to the mountaintop" speech given to the Mason Temple, Church of God in Christ.

In 1984, Jackson organized the Rainbow Coalition, which later merged, in 1996, with Operation PUSH. The newly formed Rainbow PUSH organization brought the reverend's role as an important and effective organizer to the mainstream.

In 1983, Jackson traveled to Syria to secure the release of a captured American pilot, Navy Lt. Robert Goodman who was being held by the Syrian government. Goodman had been shot down over Lebanon while on a mission to bomb Syrian positions in that country. After a dramatic personal appeal that Jackson made to Syrian President Hafez al-Assad, Goodman was released. Initially, the Reagan administration was skeptical about Jackson's trip to Syria. However, after Jackson secured Goodman's release, United States President Ronald Reagan welcomed both Jackson and Goodman at the White House on January 4, 1984<6>. This helped to boost Jackson's popularity as an American patriot and served as a springboard for his 1984 presidential run.

In June 1984, Jackson negotiated the release of twenty-two Americans being held in Cuba after an invitation by Cuban president Fidel Castro.<7>

In 1997, Jackson traveled to Kenya to meet with Kenyan President Daniel Arap Moi as United States President Bill Clinton's special envoy for democracy to promote free and fair elections.

In April 1999, during the Kosovo War, Jackson traveled to Belgrade to negotiate the release of three U.S. POWs captured on the Macedonia border while patrolling with a UN peacekeeping unit. He met with the then-Yugoslav president Slobodan Milošević, who later agreed to release the three men.<8>

On February 15, 2003, Jackson spoke in front of over one million people (estimate) in Hyde Park, London at the culmination of the Anti-War Demonstration against the imminent invasion of Iraq by the U.S. and the United Kingdom.

In November 2004, Jackson visited senior politicians and community activists in Northern Ireland in an effort to encourage better cross-community relations and rebuild the peace process and restore the governmental institutions of the Belfast Agreement

In August 2005, Jackson traveled to Venezuela to meet Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, following controversial remarks by televangelist Pat Robertson in which he implied that Chávez should be assassinated. Jackson condemned Robertson's remarks as immoral. After meeting with Chávez and addressing the Venezuelan Parliament, Jackson said that there was no evidence that Venezuela posed a threat to the U.S. Jackson also met representatives from the Afro Venezuela and indigenous communities.<9>

Campaign platform

In both races, Jackson ran on what many considered to be a very liberal platform. Declaring that he wanted to create a "Rainbow Coalition" of various minority groups, including African-Americans, Hispanics, Arab-Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, family farmers, the poor and working class, and homosexuals, as well as white progressives who fit into none of those categories, Jackson ran on a platform that included:

creating a Works Progress Administration-style program to rebuild America's infrastructure and provide jobs to all Americans,

reprioritizing the War on Drugs to focus less on mandatory minimum sentences for drug users (which he views as racially biased) and more on harsher punishments for money-laundering bankers and others who are part of the "supply" end of "supply and demand,"

reversing Reaganomics-inspired tax cuts for the richest ten percent of Americans and using the money to finance social welfare programs,

cutting the budget of the Department of Defense by as much as fifteen percent over the course of his administration,

declaring Apartheid-era South Africa to be a rogue nation,

instituting an immediate nuclear freeze and beginning disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union,

giving reparations to descendants of black slaves,

supporting family farmers by reviving many of Roosevelt's New Deal–era farm programs,

creating a single-payer system of universal health care,

ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment,

increasing federal funding for lower-level public education and providing free community college to all,

applying stricter enforcement of the Voting Rights Act, and

supporting the formation of a Palestinian state.

Jesse Jackson’s most recent project related to presidential politics was gathering information and support to investigate the 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy, particularly the voting results in Ohio and its recount. Jackson called for a congressional debate on the matter, asking for a fair count and national voting standards. He said that the elections in the United States are each run with different standards by different states with partisan tricks, racial bias, and widespread incompetence and are an open scandal.

Jackson said that he held some hope that the election could be overturned, although he admitted that that was very doubtful. Jackson compared the voting irregularities of Ohio to that of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election, saying that if Ohio were Ukraine, the U.S. presidential election would not have been certified by the international community. Jackson has called Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell inappropriately partisan and said that Blackwell may have been pressured by President George W. Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney to deliver Ohio to the Republican Party.

Based on information obtained in hearings held by Rep. John Conyers (Detroit, Michigan) and discovered during a flawed recount of the Ohio presidential vote called for by Green Party candidate David Cobb and Libertarian Party candidate Michael Badnarik, Jackson suggested that the Ohio voting machines were "rigged" and that some African-Americans were forced to stand in line for six hours in the rain before voting. When asked for evidence, Jackson did not give facts, but replied, "Based on distrusting the system, lack of paper trails, the anomaly of the exit polls."

On January 6, 2005, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Democrat staff released a 100 page report on the Ohio election. This challenge to the Ohio election was rejected by a vote of 74-1 by the United States Senate and 267-31 in the House. Many high-ranking Democrats chose to distance themselves from this debate, including John Kerry, despite Jesse Jackson personally asking Kerry for help. The call for election reform legislation and voting rights protection nonetheless continued from various citizen groups.

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_jackson

It's a shame you can't recognize a genuine hero who is still alive in your lifetime. A lot of our best heroes I only know from books and film. I got to meet Jackson during those Ohio hearings. He is an astonishing American.

And he was the one who convinced Boxer to stand up and challenge the Ohio certification. Him, in a room, talking.

So.

[EFerrari]

64. The Rightwing Media Effect. People like Jackson either

aren't very real to people or their spun persona becomes more real than they are. That's unfortunate.

[WilliamPitt]

65. Saves a bullet, as far as they're concerned.

Harsh but sadly true.

[NorthernSpy]

62. LOL! I bet it's just killing you that you can't choose other peoples' representatives for them...

I think it's hilarious how the right grooms clowns like that Jesse Lee Peterson to be the "respectable" voice of black America, even as black America thoroughly rejects him and them together. Apparently, they just can't accept that blacks overwhelmingly don't share their opinions or their interests. And instead of listening to what blacks DO think, they spend their time searching for a black guy or two to parrot their own opinions back to them.


:eyes:


Look: whether the Lakota like Means' idea, and whether they consider Means to represent their views and interests in any sense is something that only THEY can decide. It's their support -- or lack of it -- that will make him a credible representative of the Lakota, or not. It's just not up to you.

[Canuckistanian]

13. You said the magic word - "it's FUN"

It's FUN to hype a story beyond all relevance.

And profitable, too, for the networks.

[L. Coyote]

15. Well, that's nowhere near the same as asking how Dana Perino can speak for the Bush junta, but eom

[Orwellian_Ghost]

18. You mean

those treaties that were violated on every single occasion or some other treaties you hold secret?

Is this like some Orwellian "violate the violated" Newspeak you're promoting?

[shance]

19. Please Bucky what is the agenda?

Of your rather obviously agenda driven post?

And please, do give us a break, or at the least more information with which to choose.

I am questioning your motivation for this post.

The Lakota's and needless to say, hundreds of other Native communities have been brutalized, robbed, and raped for centuries now, and you have a beef with inaccurate technicalities?

The latest scapegoat being Russell Means?

Whats the latest financed think tank talking point about regarding Russell Means and any other individual and/or method to demean the legitimate actions of the Lakota community and other legitimate communities taking a valid stand?

Perhaps this is all is a political play in general by the think tanks for distraction purposes,

Absolutely,

deceit upon decent individuals like this thread have been engaged upon and in fact quite successful many moons prior.....

HOWEVER that is of course the bait with which others may want us to bite.

Your agenda is accurately received.

At this point I believe it to be legitimate (if and/or until intelligence agencies destroy, create chaos and/or infiltrate it to financed ruin) it is legitimate and I stand with the Lakotas as the majority of Americans would, because we realize what happens to the Lakotas, eventually happens to all of us.

[KittyWampus]

23. WTF? Russell Means has ever only been out for himself. And if this leads to NA's not getting to vote

in US elections, I'd say it's yet another time Means has helped out the GOP.

[shance]

24. Prove your point CS. Bring it on.

Since Bucky wont answer, please by all means prove that Means is the ONLY one behind this movement and that Russell Means is the only and illegitimate master behind this whole proclamation.

Please show us.

[KittyWampus]

25. WTF? I never said he was the only one. What a red herring. Yeah, Russell Means is a misogynistse

asshole who couldn't deal with losing to a woman.

You need proof of that?

LOL!

Yeah, he and his cronies helped get Thune elected.

You need proof of that?

That Means loves the camera more than anything else?

YOu want to see a Lakota that got things moving without needing the fanfare for their own ego's sake, check out Wilma Mankiller, for instance.

pffffft.

[shance]

30. He's not the only one initiating this action. Why are you obsessed with Means?

n/t

[EFerrari]

42. Chavez is a loudmouth. Means has an ego. Same with Jackson

and Sharpton. They're only in it for themselves. Obama has a "nose up" look that aggravates people.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

49. Yeah, seems to be focusing on Means, not the bigger issue. nt

[walldude]

39. I find it amazing that people will attack a Native American

who's lands were stolen, who's way of life was destroyed, who watched their beautiful country become the home of strip malls and tract housing. I cannot believe the audacity of people who assume that a Native American actually gives a flying fuck about American politics. When the Lakota stand up and say "Russel Means does not speak for us" then I will not take his word for what they want. Until then I take what he says at face value...

[I work for workers]

43. Russel Means land wasn't stolen and his way of life wasn't destroyed.

Today's Native Americans have a tenuous connection to their ancestors at best. Native American civilization in the US was virtually destroyed over 100 years ago. The most notable Native American civilizations disappeared over 400 years ago.

Means is a US citizen, just like the rest of us. He has more connection to American life then to a society which hasn't truly existed for more then a century.

[EFerrari]

46. You need to alert the media so all those people can know

their culture doesn't exist.

[I work for workers]

47. I know it sounds harsh, but our ancestors succeeded in wiping out their ancestors culture

by the dawn of the 20th century. It exists only in Hollywood stereotypes now. Means has more in common with you and me then he does with his murdered forefathers.

[uppityperson]

51. Not quite. Those born up to late 1940's were taken away to boarding schools.

Those born 50's on weren't, and have worked to recover what the previous generation had taken from them by being forceably removed from their homes and communities. Bunch of culture was wiped out by that and that was 20th centery.

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. The Poles say the same thing about the Jews "they have no business trying to reclaim a lost culture"

"In OUR country. They no longer live here. It's sad, but we successfully wiped them out. We will commission a stamp in their honor. Don't ask us to do more than that. they're the ones who claim top be different than you and I. You're talking about a people whose 2,000 year old claims to a common culture and heritage are tenuous at best."

Sound familiar? It is the same sort of argument used by (to varying degrees profoundly Anti-Semitic) Europeans to hand-wave their participation in the Holocaust and dismiss present day cultural identities, thereby declaring it a moot issue since there are no survivors. The Turks do it to the Armenians and Kurds, too.

Dead men tell no tales, I guess.

[EFerrari]

57. In a way, it's the flip side of the "vast empty continent" myth.

If there is no more Native American culture, then it can be discounted.

It's also like feminism. As soon as there was feminism, blam -- there was post-feminism.

[EFerrari]

56. I'm sorry but that's a little out of touch. There is a thriving Native American

community here in the Bay Area, where I met Means,and many all over the country.

[Kucinich4America]

60. So, in other words, you're admitting that all YOU know about Lakota culture

was something you saw in a bad John Wayne movie??

[I work for workers]

71. I'm admitting that the original American Indian culture vanished a long time ago.

Have you ever been on a reservation? It's not much different from any poor (or middle class to rich, if there is a casino) community, except for the cheap gas.

[uppityperson]

74. Have you been on a Lakota reservation?

I think you do not know what you are talking about. Define "original American Indian culture" as your statement can be true or not, depending on the definition. If you take "original" to mean when they came across the Bering land bridge, well duh of course that culture vanished. Here's a fun comparison. The original European culture vanished a long time ago. Here's another: The original new world european culture vanished a long time ago. Fun! And oh so meaningless.

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. Wow, and you seem so satisfied and comfortable with your projections of inevitability.

Manifest Destiny, perhaps?

[I work for workers]

58. From a debate class I took where I argued (by assignment) for Manifest Destiny:

Some tragic and terrible things happened during the Indian wars. However I can't help but look at the cost benefit trade off of American expansionism/European colonialism. The societies that were destroyed were doomed, as no Indian nation was ever strong enough to survive the clash of civilizations with Europe. The only ones that might have had a chance, those in Latin America, were destroyed almost immediately. The Indians attempts to escape this fate by moving (or being resettled) to the west were always doomed to failure, as the overwhelming drive of American capitalism (and to a lesser extent, European mercantilism) was to fully utilize the resources of the American continents. This is what eventually took place.

In short, America can be seen as a buffalo. The Indians only used a few small portions, and were content to leave the vast majority of it rotting in the sun. On the other hand, Americans realized that every part of the buffalo was valuable and should be used to its fullest extent.

[EFerrari]

61. You have that exactly backward.

It was Anglo American tourists that wasted the buffalo, not the peoples whose lives depended on them.

I hope your teacher didn't flunk you.

[I work for workers]

70. The American Bison was just one of the continents plentiful resources.

The American Indians woefully underutilized the potential of the Americas, while the Europeans and Americans were more then eager to take full advantage of the bounty that lay at their feet. That is my semi-serious point.

I got an A, and evenly split a class vote on who won the debate.

[uppityperson]

73. hahahahahahaha, you slay me

"The American Indians woefully underutilized the potential of the Americas, while the Europeans and Americans were more then eager to take full advantage of the bounty that lay at their feet."

Oh my god. stop, please.

The american indians were living in the north american continent for a long time, without over using the resources. Are you seriously saying that NOW "Americans" (not including american indians) are using resources in a sane, conservative manner in order to be able to keep using them for generations? Or do you mane the Europeans and Americans (not including indians which aren't Americans I guess) took full advantage of the bounty and used it up?

[uppityperson]

72. thank you for that post. Now I know more about you.

"The Indians only used a few small portions, and were content to leave the vast majority of it rotting in the sun."
Wrong, those trying to "open the lands" to europeans did this as a sorched earth policy against the Indians. Kill their food, let it rot, they were easier to control/kill.

"The Indians attempts to escape this fate by moving (or being resettled) to the west"
Wrong. The Indians did not move west to avoid the europeans, they were already all the way across the USA when the europeans came. They did not try to escape their fate by being resettled, they were forcibly resettled and no, not always to the west but east and south and north and every which way.

"In short, America can be seen as a buffalo. The Indians only used a few small portions, and were content to leave the vast majority of it rotting in the sun. On the other hand, Americans realized that every part of the buffalo was valuable and should be used to its fullest extent."
Are you seriously saying that Indians are not Americans?

I thought you ignorant before, now am thinking other things. It would be good if you were to do some open minded research.

[High Plains]

66. Try going to the Pine Ridge some time.

You might be surprised by all the life left in that dead culture.

[EFerrari]

67. I met a doctor in Zurich who had worked at Pine Ridge for two years.

He told me some scary stories and then he told me how he'd tried to get his assignment extended, only to be blocked by the U.S. government.

That was embarrassing.

[walldude]

68. Actually that's not true.. I have spent time with a few different

tribes, I have done quite a bit of work for Native Americans and to say they have a "tenuous connection" to their past is totally ignorant.

[EFerrari]

69. Shh! Don't scare the children.

lol

[shance]

75. A convenient distraction by criticizing Means .

You may not have worked in the world of marketing, however it is actually an asset to have someone in a movement with name recognition.

It is actually a positive and not a negative.

[I work for workers]

48. Interesting point that apllies to both our posts:

Russel Means, the guy we are all talking about, considers the term "Native American" offensive and calls himself an American Indian. I wrote my original post using American Indian, but switched to Native American for fear of being denounced as politically incorrect on this site. Irony.

http://www.peaknet.net/~aardvark/means.html

[Marrah_G]

59. How does being NA somehow make a person immune from being an asshole?

[uppityperson]

53. "Headed by" Russel Means. Or perhaps "spocksman" Russel Means.

It is a group, not just a person.

[EFerrari]

63. I think your question is a good one -- how would something like this work?

But when you think about it, that's probably what the British said. It's just a few activists, not a crisis.

:)