Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Godwin's Law and Jonah's Book

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 08:47 PM
Original message
Godwin's Law and Jonah's Book
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 08:55 PM by Pamela Troy
In Stella Gibbons’ 1932 comic novel, Cold Comfort Farm, there’s a moment when the story’s heroine, Flora, learns about a male acquaintance who is working on a book that posits Bramwell Bronte as the actual author of Wuthering Heights:

“Ha! a life of Bramwell Bronte,” thought Flora. “I might have known it. There has been increasing discontent among the male intellectuals for some time at the thought that a woman wrote Wuthering Heights. I thought one of them would produce something of this kind sooner or later.”

A similar sense of resignation settles over me every time I hear about Jonah Goldberg’s upcoming book, Liberal Fascism. To paraphrase Flora Poste, there has been increasing discontent among conservatives for some time at the thought that Hitler was a right-winger. I thought one of them would produce something of this kind sooner or later, and now, inevitably, someone has. Godwin’s Law, that modern debating affectation which presumes that the best way to venerate the millions of victims of the Holocaust is to ignore exactly how the numbers got to the millions in the first place, has at last borne fruit.

Some readers may consider it unfair that my gut reaction is to dropkick Godwin’s Law so hard my metal-toed work boot leaves a dent in it. Yes, I understand it was originally all about Internet discussion threads that had gone on too long. The idea was that if a thread had begun as a discussion of socks getting lost in the dryer, by the time the subject got around to the Nazis it was time to end the thread.

But Godwin’s Law degenerated into a mindless form of “etiquette” in which any analogy to the Nazis, no matter how valid, was dismissed as disrespectful to the victims of Nazism. As a result, apologists for everything from racial eugenics to torture to concentration camps could burble merrily along without fear of anyone making awkward comparisons. If someone had the temerity to bring up the fact that such policies and tactics had already been tried out in the Third Reich, the reaction from the White supremacist/Eugenicist/torture apologist was likely to be something along the lines of “BZZZZZZZT! Godwin’s Law! I win! I win!”

After over a decade of this, much of what my generation and my parents’ generation swore would never, never be forgotten about the Nazis has been forgotten. Heck, facts we never imagined would be forgotten about the Nazis – like their place on the political spectrum and their opposition to liberalism – are now under attack from the right.

Some months ago I wrote at length about http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Pamela%20Troy/24">Conservapedia's attempt to sell the notion of Nazis being leftists. I have no advance copy of Goldberg’s book and no intention of paying Lucianne’s boy for the damned thing when it does hit the stores, but having examined in some detail other attempts at this form of holocaust revisionism -- and yes, that’s precisely what all this “Hitler-was-a-leftist” garbage is -- I am curious about whether he uses the same arguments to justify his claims. Sadly No has been kind enough to post a few excerpts, and from what I’ve seen there, Liberal Fascism is just a more verbose version of the crap that’s been posted online by right wing crackpots since this trend first began cropping up in the ‘90s.

Much of it falls under “Betcha Didn’t Know!” approach to history. Betcha didn’t know that Hitler “CLAIMED TO BE A DEDICATED VEGETARIAN!” Betcha didn’t know that Himmler was “A CERTIFIED ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST!” Betcha didn’t know about THE NAZI PARTY PLATFORM! The answer from most people who’ve done even casual reading about the Third Reich is likely to come in two parts: “you’d lose” and “so what?”

It’s not like this trivia about Hitler hating meat and Himmler loving bunnies and the meaningless socialist planks in the party platform were secrets, carefully covered up by conniving historians and diarists. Even left-of-center writers like William Shirer trusted readers to grasp that the Nazis use of the word “Socialism” was not what made Hitler’s name a curse in the mouth of any humane person in the second half of the 20th century. The most chilling scenes in films like Cabaret, or the 1978 TV miniseries Holocaust do not involve a protagonist arguing with a fellow lodger’s belief that eating meat causes cancer or being confronted after the war by the moral nihilism of participation in a government program providing needed medical care to Reich citizens. Niemoller did not begin his famous statement with, “First they came for the smokers.”

We live in an era where the right wing defends torture and secret detention in mainstream venues. McCarthyism and the politics of paranoia are returning in an especially virulent and dangerous form. Violence against liberals is obliquely and sometimes directly advocated by nationally broadcast pundits like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage. The precise words “stab in the back” are not yet on the lips of Bush apologists but accusing liberals and Democrats and other war critics of disloyalty and “America hating” is pretty much routine these days. And the language often being used against Moslems – they’re murderous, unchristian money-grubbers who can’t be trusted and should be driven from public life – is disturbingly similar to language once used against Jews in a certain Western European country back in the ‘30s.

In such an environment, Godwin’s Rule becomes more and more obviously a ridiculous cop-out. In such an environment, nobody should be surprised that a book is now coming out that seeks to tie the evil of the Nazis, not to virulent intolerance of dissent, racism, physical intimidation and anti-intellectualism, but to vegetarianism, animal rights, and the word “socialist” in the Nazi party name.

It’s hard to say whether or not this revisionist approach to the history of Nazism, nurtured for years in the online community, will fly once it’s released onto the offline world. The reception given Goldberg’s book after it hits the shelves is going to be interesting. Let’s just hope it’s not “interesting” in the sense of that old Irish Curse.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. I love your posts, Pamela. This one is a good as the last one you wrote.
Really a pleasure to read. I'm also tickled that you used Cold Comfort Farm to draw a comparison- it's a delightful book, and funny as hell. Too few people have read it.

I doubt Golberg's book will draw much more than scorn, even if it does sell. And if it flies off the shelf, that more testament to it's shock value and simplistic nonsense than anything else.

Kicked and recommended with enthusiasm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Seconded
Fascism is a word that is throw out there entirely too often. GOldberg is intellectually lazy to attach it to liberalism. There is nothing 'liberal' about fascism. It is a totalitarian state. It has nothing to do with being a vegetarian or liking animals.

Just because Hitler and Kucinich didn't eat meat doesn't make them soulmates on any other issue.

I loved Stella Gibbons' "Cold Comfort Farm." THere was a PBS version of this done in the early 70s that was fantastic. Much better than the later movie version.

Mz Pip
:dem:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm afraid Goldberg tries to argue that totalitarianism is part of liberalism, too
:banghead:

See 'Sadly, No!' for exactly what he says, but it's along the lines of "totalitarianism is wanting everything to be part of the state, and liberals want a larger government than conservatives, so they are totalitarian". Pamela is right - he's just reworded the arguments found on FR and similar - presumably in the hope they'll see that, and cry "See! Jonah Goldberg agrees with me! I better buy this!".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. so, he liked his dog. If he loved his dog, he wouldn't have tried
out his poison on Blondie first to see if it would kill him fast or slowly. Jonah Goldberg is the scum on the bottom of a toilet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Me and the water-voles, we'll get 'em! /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. How can anyone pay attention to a "man"
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 09:43 PM by genie_weenie
who gives Lectures entitled: All I am Saying is Give War a Chance?

http://umass.edu/umhome/events/articles/66828.php

Edit: Recommended!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. OT....Cold Comfort Farm is now a movie.
Very funny. I think I'll look the book up now, too. :)

My theory is that Godwin's law was started by Nazis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Also OT: My dad was telling me I should read it
Somehow he missed it when it came out and has just caught up with now it at the age of 92. He said it was the funniest thing he'd read in years and I should read it. Perhaps I will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Started by the Bushies
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 10:14 AM by tom_paine
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Fabulous post!
Thanks for posting. Please start a journal because I don't want to miss anything you write!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. best piece of writing on DU in quite a while.
worth kicking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Finally! Excellence of thought and skill of writing. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Couldn't agree more. This post should have a hundred recs
I don't get it. It's the best piece of writing here in ages.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. If Goldberg was NOT Lucianne's son, he wouldn't be in the position
to share his shallow thinking with the world. I had the displeasure of working with this man for 9 months the year the Clinton/Lewinski thing was coming about. He is not particularly smart or clever. Just mean and immature as hell. And I guess if you run with the neocons, that gets you somewhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very interesting. Jonah Goldberg is a jerk. I'm looking forward to not reading his book.
Even from such a turd this is frightening.

Thanks for the warning, though. It was good reading.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. kick
do yourself a favor and read this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent Post!
Thanks for the Kick cali, otherwise I would have missed it. :toast:

There is, of course, one slight, small problem with attempting to say that the Nazi's were "liberals": ...........Logic.

"Virulent intolerance of dissent, racism, physical intimidation and anti-intellectualism" are not Liberal Values and the fact that some small part of the political spectrum overlaps what passes for "Liberalism" (vegetarianism and animal rights) is coincidence. As for the word "Socialist", in European political, that word has a different meaning than what we take it to have politically.

In short, as usual, Jonah Goldberg is attempting to perform a tonsillectomy through his rectum.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Wow. A post that's been carefully written, and proofed and edited!
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 08:19 AM by bunkerbuster1
I hear tell of such things cropping up from time to time on DU, wasn't sure I'd see it...

Oh, and thanks for some rhetorical ammo, too. Good stuff, this. K&R'd, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
18. I'd love to believe that people wont be susceptible to such revisionism..
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 10:09 AM by rAVES
I dont.

k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shipwack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. Fantastic!
Best bit of writing I've seen all week...

I took the liberty of posting an excerpt to my Livejournal blog, with appropriate credit and links back here to the whole thing. If this is not ok with you, please let me know and I'll remove it, with my apologies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Very Nice Post
And, being a Jonah-loather, i highly recommend it.
The Professor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC