Make English the official US language!

[DBoon]

The first step to making English the official language of the USA is to decide on a standard version of English. Many regional dialects are in fact mutually incomprehensible. Have you ever used a fish to gain access to a building in Boston (yes, they do have "access cods" in that city)?

So to make English the official language we need to decree one regional version to be official English and to outlaw all others. I'd say make the upper Midwest dialect standard. Pick a state with few electoral votes like North Dakota just to make it politically feasible. From that point forward, anyone saying "y'all" will be guilty of a federal offense as they would no longer be speaking proper English. No more needing fish to get into Boston office buildings! Speaking Texan would of course be a capital offense.

This standard dialect must be taught in all schools, so future Americans will speak the One True English. Parents speaking non-standard regional dialects will be a source of shame to their children.

Next, we need to establish a standard grammar and vocabulary. By federal law, only official English words may be used in public places. English equivalents for tainted foreign words like "pizza" will be mandated. Coining new words will be the job of a special federal commission. Radio and television stations caught using non-standard words would be subject to fines. Failure to follow mandated grammatical rules will result in the shutdown of Websites, forums, and blogs (yes, freerepublic will be no more).

Remember, a language is just a dialect with an army behind it. When someone advocates English as an official language, they are advocating putting the coercive power of the federal government behind an official dialect with an official vocabulary and grammar. Or, why punish immigrants who speak heavily accented English when native-born Americans can get away with incomprehensible pronunciation and grammatical atrocities?

[Katherine Brengle]

1. Remind me why I would want to do that?

:puke:

Edited to add: I just read more carefully and I am still a confuzzled...

[BlooInBloo]

2. The OP is pointing out the asinine requirements/consequences of an idiotic policy.

EDIT: Added "requirements".

[Bronyraurus]

52. It's fairly dishonest

Making English the official language wouldn't require any of these things. All it would do is mandate that official government documents be written in English. It would encourage everyone who comes here to learn English.

I'm just sayin'.

[John Q. Citizen]

70. You make a good point. I can't tell you how many times I've puzzled over

official government documents written in Greek, Spanish, Norwegian and Mandarin.

Though it certainly encourages me to learn Greek, Spanish, Norwegian and Mandarin when I get these letters from the Feds, or I try to access documents on line.

I bet that happens to you a lot also?

Just sayin'

[Bronyraurus]

73. You make the same point I did

My point was that making English the official language wouldn't change much, and your satirical reply agrees.

I'm not necessarily for making English the official language. We've been fine without one for 230 years, with periods of heavy immigration.

But I am against bilingual education and I do support any effort to help non-English speaking immigrants learn English. How can they be fully integrated if they don't?

[BlooInBloo]

76. You're talking about a non-existent problem. Immigrants DO learn English....

The non-problem being spoken of is typically just a cover for a problem of a rather different sort.

[Bronyraurus]

78. Not entirely non-existent

Have you been to Miami or Tampa? Or New York City? I've lived long periods in all of those cities, and there are plenty of people who do not speak English, including parents of an ex-girlfriend of mine who moved here from Columbia 20 years ago. Didn't speak a word.

[BlooInBloo]

79. And on that comment, I rest my case - the parents' kids DID....

... Illustrating that statistically, there is simply not a problem. Unless, again, the "problem" is rather different in nature, and the liguistic marketing is nothing more than code, or a cover.

[Bronyraurus]

83. That's clever, Bloo!

Why don't you say it again so even the dummies get it?

And your ability to extrapolate statistical data from my post is amazing.

[BlooInBloo]

88. It would be if I did so extrapolate, but I didn't, so it isn't.

[Bronyraurus]

91. Sure you did

Now go back and change it so no one knows.

[BlooInBloo]

92. Nothing to change, But when I do change things, I leave behind a note saying so.

[Bronyraurus]

94. Sweet.

[John Q. Citizen]

77. I'm not opposed to bi-lingual education. i am in favor of providing access to

English acquisition for immigrants.

Second language acquisition isn't as easy as it seems. Some people learn fast, some never become competent in a second language, even with a lot of time and effort invested.

However, the second and third generations of immigrants almost always become proficient in the dominant language.

The theory behind bi-lingual education is that children can learn subjects like history, math, social studies in their native language while at the same time acquiring the second language skills needed to become proficient in the dominant language.

Even for young children completely immersed in a second language, it often takes at least a few years to acquire competence, and often longer than that.

So if all classes are taught in the dominant language, after a few years a 5th grader might be proficient in the dominant language, but years behind in other subjects.

[Bronyraurus]

80. That may be so,

but the people most opposed to bilingual education are... wait for it... Mexican immigrants.

[uppityperson]

89. what do you base that "fact" on?

[Bronyraurus]

93. Here's an LA Times poll

"Opponents of bilingual education enjoy overwhelming support in a brewing ballot fight that has sparked early skirmishing in the 1998 campaign, with strong backing among California voters of all races, ethnicities and political persuasions.

Support was in the 75% to 80% range virtually across the board, among all races, income levels and age groups. Latinos voters surveyed favored the initiative by a slightly higher margin--84% to 16%--than whites, at 80% to 18%."

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/18499478.html?dids=18499478:18499478&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+15%2C+1997&author=MARK+Z.+BARABAK&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&edition=&startpage=1&desc=THE+TIMES+POLL

[uppityperson]

95. 1 10 yr old poll says this. And are you saying these Latinos are all "Mexican immigrants"?

[Bronyraurus]

98. Probably not all, but I'd say most

What's that got to do with anything?

I'm sure that there are other polls that show other things, but you asked me where I got my facts and I showed you.

[uppityperson]

99. people are supposed to back up claims, that's all.

especially statements like "the people most opposed to bilingual education are... wait for it... Mexican immigrants"

[Bronyraurus]

106. Shazaam!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Most Latinos are native born American citizens.

In case you didn't already know.

[uppityperson]

111. thanks hooligan

That too, that more so. I just didn't feel like getting into another round of debate with another poster on another blanket statement thing. It gets old.

[Bronyraurus]

128. I should've said "Latinos"

I was imprecise. Us goofy white folks can be like that, guhilk!

[uppityperson]

132. Indeed, yuck yuck yuck...

mixing up mexican immigrants with latinos, hee hee hee. goofy. duh.

[yardwork]

104. What kind of English?

What kind of English would the government mandate? (By the way, why do we want the government to mandate more things? I thought we wanted the government out of our business, not into more of it. But I digress....)

What kind of English would be mandated? Southern English? New York English? Boston English? California English?

Would phrases like "just sayin'" be allowed?

[Bronyraurus]

129. I'll pretend as if you're asking a serious question

Straight, grammatically correct English with no regional dialect or slang. "Just sayin" would not allowed on official documents, but would still be acceptable on political discussion boards.

[DBoon]

4. you understand I think making English the official language

is a very bad idea.

And that if you look at the logical implications of "English only" you end up with some interesting conclusions?

[Katherine Brengle]

42. I said I was confuzzled lol...

My reading comprehension is clearly off today.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[The Straight Story]

5. I think the point was - there is no real standard of english

it has a core element, but is so stretched out that making one official would be silly.

Just my take :)

[WinkyDink]

44. I would disagree. Cf. "Warriner's Grammar", for example. Or "The Elements

of Style" (Strunk).
"The MLA Handbook".

Try getting an advanced degree by pretending there is no Standard English.

[John Q. Citizen]

75. Language is constantly changing, Only dead languages don't change.

So anyone attempting to pin down a "standard" is fooling themselves.

By the way, having native knowledge of English isn't a requirement for an advanced degree. Being able to competently understand written and spoken English, and being able to competently generate understandable written and spoken English is generally necessary for an advanced degree in most schools this country.

But there is no "Standard English," simply because there is no standard human.

[alcibiades_mystery]

156. The MLA Handbook is a style guide

It is one of many.

I even received two advanced degrees (in English) knowing perfectly well that the MLA issues a set of conventions. As far as I know, Strunk's work is also merely conventional. In fact, one of the great diversions for English professors not too long ago was demonstrating how Strunk violates his own rules when it suits him (the same goes for White, and various other paragons of correctness).

But you do make the OP's point: the standard is merely an effect of power. You can't pretend power doesn't exist, of course. Conventions are never "merely" conventions. They have force. They help some people, and they hurt others. So you have to do the analysis in each case.

[Teaser]

3. Fuck it. Let's all speak Irish.

nt

[Wetzelbill]

9. now that's the kind of talk I like to hear

:beer:

[DBoon]

11. Actually, I think we should eliminate all traces of French

in the English laguage, including those brought by William th Conqueror.

The only true language is Anglo-Saxon.

We must stem the foreign invasion and speak like the Venerable Bede!

hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon! Þæt wæs god cyning!

[spoony]

112. The King's English

advises us that when a suitable Anglo-Saxon word is available it should be preferred over the French or other romantic derivative.

[Chemical Bill]

142. Anglo-Saxon? Those johnny-come-latelys?

Don't you mean the descendant of the original Brits' language: Welsh?

Personally, I think we should all speak native american languages. My ancestor Roger Williams wrote a book on how to speak the Narragansett language. Unfortunately, the Puritans came down from Massachusetts and killed or enslaved most of the Narragansetts soon after that.

Bill
edit:punctuation

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. Sea

[Teaser]

86. Nil moran Gaelige agam

at least to speak it. But I'm very good at reading it. Just completed the first "Harry Potter" book in Irish.

[GreenPartyVoter]

124. I tried to teach myself Irish gaelic abt 10 yrs ago. I got maybe 1/3

of the way into the study book and gave up. It's really too hard a language to learn via books and tapes.

Am way impressed you could read HP in it! How cool are you?! :D

[RB TexLa]

6. Most universities in the south have a class on getting rid of a Southern accent. n/t

[TroglodyteScholar]

29. My BS detector is going absolutely crazy

Unless you're taking liberties and maybe referring to enunciation courses in broadcast journalism curriculum....

[RB TexLa]

85. It's usually in RTF, but the time I took it there were many people from outside of RTF

The college of business strongly encouraged it, along with pre-law and pre-med advisers.

The first day started with the teacher stating that "this is proper English 101."

[TroglodyteScholar]

152. Okay, so what you MEANT to say...

...was that YOUR university offered a course. Not "most Southern universities."

I think that's an important distinction.

[RB TexLa]

153. I know many people that took such a class at other schools

[Coyote_Bandit]

50. ???

I grew up in Arkansas and have attended colleges in three different southern states. I have ten years of college including three graduate degrees. I have never seen such a course.

If you were to talk to the old time Southerners they would point out that through history many of our nations finest orators have been Southerners. Most old time Southerners make fine distinctions between hick, hillbilly, Southern, Appalachian, cottonfield, and many other "Southern" dialects. They could tell you the cultural and socio-economic implications of each dialect.

I guess preserving the culture of indigenous people groups is only important if those folks happen to live in a third world country. God help them if they happen to be a resident of a Southern state - outsiders understand the slightest drawl to mean they are inbred and uncivilized. Get over it.

[Iris]

125. I work in the university system in Georgia and have never seen or heard of such a class, except

for maybe a continuing ed class, but those are taught through contracts.

[Bryn]

127. What's wrong with Southern accent?

???

[RB TexLa]

154. It effects people's first impressions

wrong or right the way someone speaks is part of that.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. In education, there is a debate between "standard" English and

ebonics, otherwise known as "Black English". An example of this would be mismatching of a subject pronoun (I, you, he, she) with a present tense verb (am, are, is). Teachers are instructed to be sensitive to children whose homes don't employ "standard" (white) English, esp. when correcting their language errors per that standard.

What will constitute a "standard" for English for a proposed legislation?

Once a movement to make English the "official and national" language of this country, you will also be debating inclusion of theme-and-variations of the "standard".

[WinkyDink]

13. Didn't this "debate" come and go about 20 years ago?

[no_hypocrisy]

14. To my knowledge, I don't believe there was a complete

resolution of the outstanding issues.

[WinkyDink]

49. I guess not, what with a new book out criticizing Bill Cosby, which includes his

dislike of ebonics.
But if ebonics (or "Ebonics") is taught, to what purpose and end?

[no_hypocrisy]

58. That's where it gets murky. There is a demographic that

believes that ebonics is a valid form of English and should be recognized as standard usage. To do otherwise to their way of thinking is to continue the perpetuation of actively denigrating African-Americans by not recognizing their inherent and special "language" which demands recognition and validity. That's where the battlelines are drawn. It becomes political, sociological, anthropoligical, as well as linguistic, and especially emotional. The latter reason is probably why the debate has never been efficiently resolved as there are implications for one position dominating the subordinate position.

[Solon]

139. Not special, but a distinct dialect of English....

In linguistic circles there is very little debate over Ebonics, its considered a distinct dialect of English. However, within the popular culture, there is huge debate on this, usually along racial lines, with most folks having no clue about the linguistic history and development of Ebonics.

[cosmik debris]

8. No more Rodeos

No more tacos. No more Oktoberfest! No more Los Angeles. No more Seattle. No more Sault Ste. Marie. This could be fun!

[DBoon]

16. No more television!

We'd have to call it "farseeing"

[DBoon]

19. We'd still have plenty of beer though

"beer" being a good old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon word

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. No thanks. I'll stick to profanity as my second language.

Which is a particularly necessary dialect when dealing with shrink-wrap or politicians.

[GoneOffShore]

20. Can we shrink-wrap politicians, please?

[WinkyDink]

12. I don't think "official language" means pronunciations.

I get your sarcasm, but money spent on documents, e.g., isn't a laughing matter.
Moreover, "official English" would be the common vernacular, and so wisecracks about "pizza" et al. are plain silly.

Everybody knows what a "foreign language" vs. English means, as evidenced by our tacit mutual agreement to POST IN ENGLISH.

[DBoon]

15. But wasn't eliminating regional dialects

part of the process of making French the official language of France? Tied in with a national education system to teach the standard language?

And how do you think English-only advocates would react when you tell them the French did something like this?

[WinkyDink]

28. I'm not familiar with French doings. And so what if the French did or didn't?

It's their country.
I live in Pennsylvania Dutch-land. My father-in-law had teachers who would use "Say vunst" and "Outen the light, naw." I think standardization of pronunciation (and grammar) is a good thing.
Regional dialects are called that for a reason: they are not dominant.

[uppityperson]

17. You bet!

Replace "casserole" with "hot dish".
"Uff da" instead of "oy vey"

[KharmaTrain]

18. Benjamin Franklin Wanted Hebrew As The Official Language

That should sure spin a few of those holier than thou "english only" xenophobes. :rofl:

[WinkyDink]

65. I'm not a xenophobe, but let's get real. Is there a standard English for pilots, for eample, or is

there not? For governance (or is the Congressional Record also in Spanish, because I'm not aware of that)?
I understand the concept of change in language; I studied Chaucer in Middle English, and read some Beowulf in Old. But the great language shifts---whether from the printing press, invasions/colonizations, Samuel Johnson's Dictionary, or what have you---nevertheless served to standardize the language, not fragment it.

[whopis01]

138. that seems odd

as Franklin was a dissenter in a vote to make German the official language that was defeated by a single vote. Franklin claimed at that time that Americans should keep English as their language.

[Marrah_G]

21. Language is the one thing that ties us together

Please explain to me how every business is supposed to have at least one employee who speaks the languages of all immigrants. It is impossible.

Please tell me how many languages our elementary school teachers need to learn and exactly how you would go about teaching in 10 different languages on any given day.

Please tell me how every police officer is supposed to learn every language just in case he pulls over an immigrant.

There is nothing wrong with heavily accented english. You might have to ask a couple times to make sure you understand, but it is workable. It is far better then having to track down a translater because the other person cannot even begin to make thier needs known.

Now there are times having translators is very very necessary, such as medical care or the travel industry.

Your post is just plain silly. Accents from different regions do not make it impossible to communicate. Having many different languages does.

Now, if it were just 2 languages that would be possible....but who gets to choose which group of immigrants is "worthy"?

Language ties us together and until we all have translator chips installed then it is going to be that way.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Um, save some straw for the horses.

[Marrah_G]

26. Care to elaborate?

Seriously, please explain to me how we could fuction as a country without a common language. Outlawing other languages is just plain silly, and really not the point. Do you really not see a need for a common way to communicate?

Edit to add: When I come into work and there is a message on my voicemail in a language I don't understand how well do you think I can help that person? When there is a message in broken english I can at least try call them back and work through it.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Ack! Stop it! The horses! The horses are starving due to the straw shortage you've instituted!

Won't anybody think about the horses?!?!?

[Marrah_G]

38. Silly me for trying to have a conversation

I should have just left it alone with your first silly response. One of these days it will get through my think skull that there are alot of people here who have no desire for conversation, instead just a need to amuse themselves with their own words.

[spoony]

113. Don't bother with that one

You'll only get vague subject lines and empty post bodies.

[Igel]

66. Ya soglasen s nim. b/t

[noamnety]

145. Now now, that's not fair

Please tell me how every police officer is supposed to learn every language just in case he pulls over an immigrant.

That's a valid enough point. Clearly if we passed a law stating the English were the official language, immigrants would know how to speak English. The one thing stopping them is that they haven't had a law stating that they speak English. Also, as a side benefit, Deaf people would no longer use sign language, and we could bar all non English speakers from vacationing here - because having them here is also unfair to policemen.

And in return, as sort of a "fair trade" thing, we could also ban all Americans from traveling abroad to any country where we don't speak the language, because the same problems present themselves for those other policemen.

It might have a bit of an impact on our overseas military bases, but I'm okay with that.

[Marrah_G]

147. Let me make something clear

I think having a law banning other languages is just plain silly. What I do think is that English as a second language classes should be made available free of charge to every immigrant. It is in the best interest of all for them to learn at least basic language skills. That is, until the Enterprise shows up and hands out some nifty wristband translators!

[noamnety]

148. I'm all in favor of free ESL classes as well.

Also, I understand that we live in a world with a whole bunch of languages and dialects, and we need to get over our bad selves if we perceive a difficulty in communication between ourselves and another person as being a problem of the other person rather than a challenge that exists between the two of us.

It's that supremacy/privilege/othering thing, rearing its head again.

[Marrah_G]

149. That does not make sense

It has zero to do with Supremecy or privelege. If you move to a new place that does not speak your language if you don't learn theirs your life will be difficult. This goes for English speakers who move abroad as well.

[noamnety]

150. It makes complete sense to me

Communication is a transfer of ideas between two people. If they speak different languages, they need to cooperate to find a way to send/receive messages.

Sometimes people resent it when another person doesn't speak the same language as them. Not just "they are frustrated by the obstacle" but they actually resent the other person, as if it's their "fault." They should change to meet your communication requirements. Even when that's obviously not feasible.

Go out to eat with one of your Deaf friends, and let them do the communicating. You'll see what I mean, you can often feel the resentment from the waitstaff.

The assumption that others have a responsibility to adjust to us is an example of (invisible assumed) privilege. It's often resentment that something extra is required of us, but when pressed we justify it by saying our real concern is for them. "if you don't learn theirs your life will be difficult"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean there are people here that are so patient with me (in the UK) unlike the US where there were people who would get really annoyed if I asked them to repeat what they said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=381x88

[uppityperson]

34. Hmm, and all this time I thought humanity was what tied us together.

Every (pick a category) does not need to learn every language just in case. That is silly. That argument is along the line of we have to keep marriage between 1 man 1 woman because otherwise people would be marrying their pets! This is a big country. There is room for many languages, many dialects and a lot of variation. Have you never had problem understanding someone from another part of this country? I have.

Humanity ties us together. The rest is window dressing.

[Marrah_G]

62. That just doesn't make sense

Different accents, foriegn or domestic might hinder communication a little, but it does not make it nearly immpossible. Of course you don't have to learn every language just in case, that is because the majority of immigrants learn some basic english asap, just so they can function.

Your entire post makes very little sense in the real world, in my opinion.

[WinkyDink]

67. No, humanity does not "tie" us together. Attempts at communication do.

[Homer Wells]

51. As Far as I Know

The United States of America is one of a very very few nations that was built on immigrants.
Other countries, such as France, Germany, Japan, et. al. have as their core a pool of people descended from a single culture.

The only native culture here is/was the Native Americans.

That being said, a determination of the dominant language of said Native Americans needs to be researched, and that language should be proclaimed "official" throughout the nation.

English will be just one more outlawed language.:sarcasm:

[Marrah_G]

57. There was no dominant language

If you traveled far enough from home to come across another tribe you would learn thier language. You wouldn't stubbornly insist that whole tribe learn yours. But more then likely you would find a few of the tribe who would be interested in learning your language also. The world was a bigger place back then. You couldn't hop a plane and get to the opposite coast in a matter of hours.

[Homer Wells]

82. Hence the "Sarcasm" tag

That was not a serious suggestion; just pointing out the absurdities of our claiming there should be one official language in this country.

For better or worse, we are a nation of "mutts", a glorious stew of many nationalities. The "mutt" is usually hardier than his "purebred" counterpart.
This intermixing of the gene pool is a good part of the strength that is the United States, and any attempt in determining which is the best part is foolish.
This whole "national language " thing is just an attempt at imposing Majority Rule on the rest of us.
Seems to me the Founding Fathers took great care to protect the minority from the majority. I don't see why this should be any different.
It behooves the immigrant to learn the dominant language in the society in which they live, but to make it a National law seems a bit like overkill to me.
(Sorry to ramble on: I probably should have made this a separate post, but my fingers just got away from me. Hope I made some sense,anyway)

[Marrah_G]

122. LOL sorry

I was posting in between phone calls and completely missed the sarcasm tag.

My bad :)

And I agree making it some national law just seems stupid. I'd rather see free classes made available to those who need them.

[Rosemary2205]

54. Yes but the tie is very loose, which IMHO is a good thing.

Our unofficial language is already english - our gov't documents are all in english. I think NOT having an official language in this country is a strength not a weakness. IMHO it honors the whole point of this "melting pot" of ours. The very concept that there is room and opportunity for everyone is IMHO strengthened by the fact America does not have an OFFICIAL language.

[LanternWaste]

64. I guess those Swiss cops and teachers must be smarter than ours...

There is no *one* thing that has ever tied a nation together. What source do you cite for that most absurd of statements? Religion and art must also be tied into this. Same with fashion trends, food and entertainment. Really-- I'd love to hear your justification as to why language is the only thing that ties a culture together.




I guess those Swiss cops, doctors, bureaucrats and teachers must be smarter than ours...

:sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

90. Indeed and thank you.

[Marrah_G]

123. Language ties us together

Sure there are other contributing things, but the ability to communicate with those around you is key.

So the swiss have as many immigrants from as many cultures as we do and thier public servants learn every language? If so then hats off to them, I don't think it would be as successful here.

[LanternWaste]

133. Why wouldn't multi-lingualism work here?

Why wouldn't multi-lingualism work here? It has in the past. It still does in many, many other countries.... you think that are we as a country so stupid that it's impossible?

Should the deaf be required to stop attempting to communicate because they don't "speak" English? Should we deny them jobs, families and lives here because they don't live up to your expectation of what they should sound like?

I'm inferring from your question that you don't seem to realize that the Swiss have four official languages. And guess what, it's not an issue there. Ask a Swiss resident if it lessens his country in his own eyes.

[Marrah_G]

136. And how many different languages do immigrants speak here?

What about a person there who doesn't speak one of those 4 languages? Do they add a 5th or does that person learn one of the four?

Note: Your mention deaf people is just so completely absurb it doesn't warrant a response.

[EHC]

126. Bingo

I'm sure you'll catch some flack for this post but its a matter of functioning.

I donut care if someone is literate in the English Language (but for Pete's sake you should not be President if you're not) but there should be some common English everyone knows. Their Name, Address, Emergency Contacts, The English name of the Language they speak, some other things so they can be sure that should they find themselves in a pinch they can get some help.

I don't care what people speak as their primary Language, I don't care if I live in an area where I dont understand most people but for the sake of a functioning society we have to have some common language.

[Chemical Bill]

155. Um, BIB is saying...

that you are using many straw-man arguments. That is when you put words into your opponent's mouth, or misstate the opponent's arguments to your own advantage. Opposing "English as Official Language" laws doesn't mean that I want every policeman to learn every language on earth.

Bill

[Hippo_Tron]

23. IMO, immigrants should learn English

But making it the national language isn't going to do anything to change the fact that some of them choose not to. It's just a xenophobic gesture.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. IMO, Americans should learn Spanish.

[Marrah_G]

27. Why Spanish?

Don't Vietnamese immigrants count? or Romanians? or Palestinian?

Why just Spanish?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. It's the second most spoken language in country.

It's like French is to Canada.

[Marrah_G]

40. So you want immigrants to now learn two languages?

So the Arab guy down the street from me has to not only learn english , but now also spanish?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Frankly, I think everybody should be polylingual.

But I think you're confusing "should" with "has to."

Remember your English now.

[Marrah_G]

53. I agree

Polylingual is a great thing. My question is this. How does not learning english help the immigrant? Not all immigrants are spanish. Wouldn't the best thing be to push for more free basic english as a second language classes for our newest residents?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Well, for starters...

the idea that immigrants are unreceptive to learning English is a bunch of xenophobic hogwash.

Secondly, immigrants shouldn't be "pushed" to learn english anymore than native born Americans should be pushed to learn Spanish.

[Marrah_G]

60. I never said they were unreceptive

I don't know any immigrants on a personal level who do not speak english at least a little. I only run into it occasionally on the phone at work. I am not anti-immigrant, I am simply pointing out that language is one of the things that brings thing culture of immigrants together. Have a common language is a good thing. This doesn't mean out-lawing other languages, that would be silly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Well, you implied it...

First in saying that immigrants are not learning English, and then in the suggestion that they need pushing.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. LOL.

"Is there any doubt that some immigrants don't learn English? I live in Florida and have met many."

I reaffirm that it's a xenophobic myth that immigrants are unreceptive to learning English.

"Second, you are deliberately twisting the other poster's words, which were that we as a society should push for free English classes, not push immigrants like a bunch of xenophobic bullies. How full of shit you are!"

Pushing for free English classes is a great thing. Pushing immigrants into taking them is another.

"I shouldn't expect them to cater to me just because I'm an American."

I agree whole heartedly. In fact, that's my whole point.

[Bronyraurus]

97. Whoohah!

"I reaffirm that it's a xenophobic myth that immigrants are unreceptive to learning English."

I reaffirm that no one said that immigrants generally are unreceptive to learning English. Show me where. You can't. Because no one said it. True or false: some immigrants HAVE NOT and DO NOT learned English.

"Pushing for free English classes is a great thing. Pushing immigrants into taking them is another."

Show me exactly where someone suggested that immigrants should be "pushed" into taking English classes. You can't. Because no one said it.

You are arguing with yourself!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. Well if nobody said it...

why are you getting so upset over it?

[Bronyraurus]

105. Lordy

Are you even trying to have a normal discussion, or are you content with your meaningless replies?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. I'm trying to have a discussion.

What are you trying to do?

[Bronyraurus]

110. Head for the exits.

Smell ya later!

[k_jerome]

131. lmao. nt.

[uppityperson]

115. word of warning. Personal attacks are not allowed on DU

This is a moderated forum and personal attacks will be deleted. Thusly, you can say "I disagree" but not "how full of shit you are". FYI.

[AZBlue]

119. Um, most are not learning English.

If you got out of Seattle WA sometimes and came to the southern states, you'd see that in a minute.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. You think there aren't mexican immigrants in Seattle?

Try getting out of the southern states sometimes.

[Bridget Burke]

137. We don't have that problem in Texas.

Houston has a huge number of immigrants from all over the world. As usual, the grandparents may have problems with English. The parents learn as much as they can. And the kids learn at school.

Of course, you're only talking about Mexicans--of which we also have quite a few.

Warner Cable just added a new channel for the Latino audience. The cable system already carries the 4 or 5 channels that broadcast in Spanish. And there are two more on my cable tier. (Of course, there are many premium Spanish channels.)

So--why did we need yet another channel for this demographic? Well--Si TV is after the young Latino audience. So all the programming is in English!

www.sitv.com/

[Marrah_G]

120. I never, ever said they aren't learning english

You are reading something into my post that is not there.

I will state this as simply as I can.

I believe the ability to communicate through a common language is an important one and the most common language in America is English.

I also believe that immigrant want to learn english to make living and doing business here easier.

Because I believe both of those ideas I believe that there should be far more english as a second language available at no cost to immigrants.

I hope that expresses my thoughts more clearly.

Sorry for the delay in responding I had errands to run after work.

[Rosemary2205]

61. I agree with you.

IMHO American children should start school learning english, spanish and at least one other language - French, chinese, arabic - whatever. It doesn't just make communicating easier but it also increases one's employment opportunities and IMHO generally builds a more global way of thinking in people. Having some awareness of other languages/cultures IMHO makes bombing them to hell a little harder to do.

[DBoon]

37. Spanish is much easier for native ENglish speaker to learn

than say Vietnamese or an Arabic language.


And Romanian is just Spanish spoken with a very strange accent ;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. I'd also suspect...

it'd be much easier for a native-born American citizen to learn a second language than a recent immigrant working 90 hours a week just to make ends meet.

I mean, given a will.

[Marrah_G]

130. Okay but there is a problem with that.

Even if the native born english speaker learns, for example, Spanish and even one other language how does that help other immigrants who do not speak any of those languages. You still end up with the same issue.

Other languages should never be outlawed, that would be silly and detrimental to the community, but that does not mean that people choosing to make this country home should not be given as much help as we can give to help them learn english. I think most will agree that an immigrants standard of living and employment potential improves greatly when they can speak English.

[Marrah_G]

45. My children are taking spanish at my insistance

It's easier for them to learn at a young age.

Not all areas of the country have spanish as a strong second most polular language. Here in Massachusetts I deal with a large variety of english as a second language people. Just learning spanish wouldn't fix things.

[DBoon]

30. IMO Americans should learn English

The current level of English literacy among the native-born population is dismal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. The current level of English literacy among native-born...

is probably the highest it's ever been.

[uppityperson]

39. No, they should have to speak AMerican

I just got out of the bath, washed with a loofa, now sitting around in my pajamas eating guacamole and brie, an odd combination, but que sera sera, you know?

[Hippo_Tron]

33. Americans should probably be more receptive to learning second languages

But there's no reason for all Americans to learn Spanish seeing that English is the dominant language in the country and has been since its founding.

[EFerrari]

56. Who are all these immigrants that refuse to learn English?

Are they the same ones on the long waiting lists to get into ESL classes? :crazy:

[Hippo_Tron]

116. As always, you can't make generalizations about entire groups of people

I said that SOME choose not to, I wasn't speaking about all immigrants.

[EFerrari]

117. I'm so sorry. Can you name ANY immigrants that refuse to learn English?

Thank you.

[DemInBuckhead]

25. Yes, I would move to make Chicago English the official language

Since I am originally from there. We would pass legislation to state that all traffic delays caused by looking over to the other side of the expressway (as opposed to the highway or the freeway) to see the accident over there would be referred to as "gaper's block" as opposed to a rubbernecking delay. And the Mountain Dew on my desk would be a "pop" as opposed to a "soda".

[Bjornsdotter]

46. Here, here

......I second the motion!

Cheers

[City Lights]

48. Welcome to DU, DemInBuckhead!

:hi:

[bigwillq]

103. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

135. Before you get a drivers license...

You have to know the difference between the Ike and the Edens, and know that you never drive under 80 mph on either of them.

[City Lights]

31. Let's make it Bushspeak!

:rofl:

[OneBlueSky]

59. up the crick without a paddle (western NY) . . . n/t

.

[Beelzebud]

68. I vote for sign language!!

[WinkyDink]

69. Which one? Heh:

"Over the years, different countries, regions or communities have generated a local sign language version, which is influenced by the locality's language patterns. In any case, the ones most frequently used on an international level are that of Signed English and Warlpiri Sign Language. Thus, people interested in learning sign language should keep in mind that they should begin searching for an appropriate sign language center first in their own locality, before expanding their sign language skills and knowledge."
http://www.challengingyou.com/sign-language.html

[Beelzebud]

71. Why the Amurikkkan version, of course!

[treestar]

74. It is as ludicrous an idea as an official religion

Great satire

:you rock:

[ComerPerro]

81. Kinda funny that a lot of the "english only" crowd can barely speak coherently, isn't it?

[BlooInBloo]

96. And they're the ONLY ones that should be allowed to dammit! roflmao!

[Solon]

141. The thing that annoys me about the "English Only" crowd is that...

They seem to think that making English the official language would all of the sudden help recent immigrants learn the language, or they will be fluent the minute they step foot on American territory.

Instead of making Immigrant's lives more difficult, like having tax forms in English only, or something stupid like. Why not increase funding to ESL schools, and let's say allow the government to relieve teachers of their student loans if they donate time for ESL classes for adults, stuff like that. Hell, make it law that immigrant workers can take time off, with NO PENALTY, so they could take ESL classes, and let them still get paid for it. Similar to jury duty or something.

These would be solutions to HELP, rather than HINDER, immigrants.

[redwitch]

87. Your thoughts Professor Higgins?

Song: Why Can't the English? Lyrics
Henry Look at her, a prisoner of the gutter,
Condemned by every syllable she ever uttered.
By law she should be taken out and hung,
For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue.
Eliza Aaoooww! Henry imitating her Aaoooww!
Heaven's! What a noise!
This is what the British population,
Calls an elementary education. Pickering Oh,
Counsel, I think you picked a poor example. Henry Did I?
Hear them down in Soho square,
Dropping "h's" everywhere.
Speaking English anyway they like.
You sir, did you go to school?
Man Wadaya tike me for, a fool?
Henry No one taught him 'take' instead of 'tike!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction, by now,
Should be antique. If you spoke as she does, sir,
Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too!
Hear a Yorkshireman, or worse,
Hear a Cornishman converse,
I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.
Chickens cackling in a barn Just like this one!
Eliza Garn! Henry I ask you, sir, what sort of word is that?
It's "Aoooow" and "Garn" that keep her in her place.
Not her wretched clothes and dirty face.
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.
An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks have taught their
Greek. In France every Frenchman knows
his language fro "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually,
as long as they pronounce in properly.
Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
And Hebrews learn it backwards,
which is absolutely frightening.
But use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?

[Yavin4]

101. I Have A Funny Anecdote About Language

Living in NYC means that a significant portion of the population does not speak English at all, and some people use their inability to speak English as a means to get out of jury duty.

So, before a packed room of prospective jurors, the court clerk announced the following in plain English, "All those who cannot speak English or cannot comprehend English, please move to the left side of the room."

Needless to say, those that did move to the left side of the room were asked to re-take their seats and wait until they were called for jury duty.

[crispini]

108. See, that's not fair, really.

Were the shoe on the other foot, I know just enough Spanish to say and understand "No hablo Espanol!" but certainly not enough to be in a trial! Funny story though.

[Yavin4]

118. The Rule is A Working Knowledge of the Language

that's all you need to sit on a jury. If you understood the clerk, then you can serve.

[crispini]

143. One phrase does not a working knowledge make.

I can order beer in Spanish too. Doesn't mean I have any kind of "working knowledge"

[Yavin4]

144. According to the Jury Duty Rules...

you may qualify.

[mainegreen]

146. ....

:spray:

Clever clerk!

[tblue37]

102. W would be in big trouble! (eom)

[spoony]

114. You know, of course, that many--if not most

countries have official languages, and that they haven't crumbled as a result?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages

And, as far as I know, it is not a crime to speak other languages in these places.

[Solon]

140. True, however, having an Official language is generally unnecessary....

In the first place. Our Language de facto is English, and in some places, Spanish, so I don't see why we would need a Language de jure.

Besides, many countries have MORE than one official language, due to demographics or politics, like Canada, the United States would probably have to, for practicality purposes, follow the same pattern. California's Constitution was ORIGINALLY written in both Spanish and English, Arizona has those two languages as official languages too. Hawaii has both Hawaiian and English as official languages, other parts of the country recognize French and other languages in law as well.

This means that in various parts of the country, official government documents are printed in these languages, and many more, when necessary, this can include courts documents and tax forms, in addition to contracts, etc. Having an official federal language COULD restrict this power by states and local governments, OR, we could leave it alone, and let the chips fall where they may.

Now, I think, due to practicality, that any law that declares English as the official language would be non-binding, and basically not be backed up by any further laws, so what's the point for pushing it in the first place?

[spoony]

151. Good points

And I concur it is unnecessary, especially in the current climate of language being wielded as a political mace.

[all.of.me]

134. garrison keillor: you, too, can learn to speak minnesotan....

great post!