BREAKING (CNN) Colorado church shootings were connected! Same guy, former church member!

[originalpckelly]

It was one of their own! Will post more as it follows, press conferences soon.

[libnnc]

1. One of their own.

Thanks for the heads up.

[originalpckelly]

4. Yep, he'd been mailing Youth With A Mission for months...

YWAM has a satellite office down at the New Life church. Guy was going to kill at least 500, planned to channel them into a small passageway. Failed in his plan when a security guard for the church shot him in the chest, but the massive amount of ammo he was carrying protected him. He continued to grab a grenade, that's when the security guard shot him again killing him.

[joshcryer]

6. That security guard saved a CRAPLOAD of lives if that's true.

My God.

[originalpckelly]

8. Yep, among other ammo in his car he was carrying 500 rounds on him!

And it's highly plausible he could have killed that many, considering the number of people at that church. (It's a 10,000 member mega-church.)

[Sixty_cycle_humm]

28. I just heard it was a woman who shot him

and she was a parishioner with a CCW permit, not a security guard. She volunteered to be armed with her own weapon and act as a guard after hearing of the shooting earlier that day. When she heard gunfire she ran toward it and stopped him before he got further than 50 feet into the church, she saved a LOT of lives.

[Mountainman]

30. Now that is going to make it hard to have our usual pro gun anti gun debate after a shooting.

[piedmont]

35. Gonna be a LOT harder to defend those "gun free zones" now. nt

[joshcryer]

40. It is pretty cool, isn't it? By now this thread would've *exploded* with anti-gunner speil...

...but because a WOMAN killed the man with a GUN the whole thing is completely and utterly moot. It's brilliant.

[Marie26]

63. Maybe the solution

is to only allow women to carry concealed weapons.

[Dorian Gray]

65. I like it!

Though nobody would want one in my hands when I get road rage!

[Marie26]

69. Me too!

I'm having a Thelma & Louise moment here. Just think about how the quickly the amount of cat-calls or sexual harassment would fall. And criminals wouldn't target women as much for rape or muggings, because they'd know women are the most likely to be armed. Arm all women!

[Wcross]

86. You are smart enough not to kill over road rage though, right?

I carry & whenever someone pisses me off on the road I bark at them. Yes, I bark like a dog at them. I don't flip the bird, I don't flash my lights, I don't even get involved with them. I stay away and bark. By the time I laugh at how silly I am any anger is gone. The other driver is on his/her way. All is right with the world.

If however, someone is killing people or threatening my life I have a gun. It may not make a difference to the outcome of the situation. It may save my life or others lives. That's why I carry.

[Dorian Gray]

126. Of course I would never kill over road rage

I was just teasing.

I've actually never fired a gun. I held one TWICE in my life. It honestly makes me feel really uncomfortable, and I don't think that I would ever have one in my household, let alone keep one on my person.

But, that's me and my choice. I don't have a problem with what this particular woman did. I believe she is a hero who save many people's lives, and I am happy that she was there to prevent more loss of life.

[hunter]

118. Just to make it fun, allow eunuchs to carry concealed weapons too.

And if a male is not a eunuch and is caught carrying a concealed weapon, well they have the option to become a eunuch to avoid prosecution.

[Marie26]

125. Yes, that makes sense.

Good idea!

[JVS]

121. Nah, no need to. Instead of Armed Citizen Saves Lives, it's Fundy Nutbag Shoots Alleged Criminal

[Wcross]

127. Alleged Criminal who had shot & killed two people seconds before.

Where did you get the "alleged criminal" bull scat? You don't call homicide X two a criminal act? Ain't no alleged about this one scooter.

[JVS]

128. That was part of my ironic statement, that in order to minimize the culpability of the gunman...

people would refer to him as "alleged",

[Wcross]

31. But she could have killed innocent people.....

She endangered other peoples lives.

[piedmont]

37. From msnbc...

"The gunman was killed by an armed security volunteer at the church before police arrived, authorities said.

Guard 'probably saved 100 lives'
Boyd said the security guard rushed the attacker, who didn’t get more than 6 feet inside the building, and “took him down in the hallway.”

“She probably saved 100 lives,” Boyd said of the guard. The gunman, he added, “had a lot of ammunition to do a lot of damage.”

About 7,000 people were on the church campus at the time of the shooting, said Boyd. Security had been beefed up after the shootings hours earlier in Arvada, he said."

[notadmblnd]

123. It sounds like they knew it was coming and decided to hold services anyway

I wonder how that changes things for the injured and the survivors of those killed?

[Lex]

Too bad they can't blame it on the crazee gays or whomever

they were hoping for.


/cynical

[magellan]

2. Doesn't surprise me

Wonder what they did (or what he thought they did) to him to make him do this horrible thing.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. I loved the NRA response.

no responsibility, no sense of shame,

[atreides1]

25. What part did the NRA play in this?

What was their statement? And why should they be held responsible for something they had no control over?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

26. they issued a statement that they were

sorry that it happened, but it was not their fault.

[RamboLiberal]

7. I'm glad it's one of theirs

I'm sorry for the tragic deaths - but glad it's one of theirs. They have to deal with it.

Imagine the crap we'd hear if he was an atheist or a Muslim, etc!

[originalpckelly]

9. We, however, have no clue what he did to get himself out of the church.

What did he do?

[atreides1]

23. Why is it something he did?

Couldn't it have been something that the church did? Maybe the church failed to live up to his standards, considering the incident with the former head of the church, and he decided that the church was based on lies!

Until we get the whole story, not just what the church PR people will put out, we won't know why he left the church, will we?

[joshcryer]

10. The vast majority of murders are domestic in nature.

It doesn't surprise me at all really. A person scorned as they say.

[terisan]

20. Murder rates are quite low in many countries. Do you think we are powerless to lower our rate?

[LanternWaste]

33. One day, we'll be saying, "one of our own"..

One day, throughout the world we'll be saying, "one of our own" regardless of faith, creed, language or any other false construct. Guess we're not there yet and can continue to enable the divisions-- 'cause it's one of "them" so it's not too bad...

Since you tell me I ("they") have to deal with it, what precisely should I be doing?

[kestrel91316]

11. Well, sad about the deaths, truly. BUT I am relieved that they won't be

able to harp on and on about how ATHEISTS did them wrong, or GAYS did them wrong, or MUSLIMS did them wrong, or PAGANS did them wrong.

One of their own.......I guess God told him to do it.

The Lord IS said to work in mysterious ways, after all......

[joshcryer]

13. And if he got kicked out of the church for being gay, atheist, muslim or pagan?

Surely something else is going to come out, erm, no pun intended, about this fellow.

[kestrel91316]

21. One hopes NOT. Because you know how that will be used to

justify MORE persecution of those groups by the good Christians of this Christian Nation(TM).

[eleny]

12. Why doesn't god love that church?

[Bicoastal]

14. Save it.

Church or no church, no one deserves to go that way.

[joshcryer]

16. Especially not two beautiful young women!

[eleny]

18. Save your finger wagging

After 12 years of catholic school and umpteen years of religious political correctness plus living in Colorado for 30 years where they have more then their share of time shoving fundy nonsense down throats around here, I'll say what I please.

[LanternWaste]

36. Much like what almost all politically active people do

"shoving fundy nonsense down throats around here, I'll say what I please."

Much like what almost all politically active people do-- shoving our beliefs down people's throats...

[eleny]

64. And they're all welcome to put me on thier ignore lists

Something I wish I could do to the fundies.

[bahrbearian]

89. Amen

[joshcryer]

15. 10k members. Statistically they have someone of practically every stripe.

I've been to that Church (I am not religious, my mother is). It's a big corporate style 10k+ audience. It takes an hour just to get to your car after services. It's like attending a local baseball game.

It's just that the media often exaggerates news. Ted Haggart probably would still be there if the media didn't run him in the ground. Two deaths in that Church are pretty big (the local news reported on it all day), but national cable news? What about the two kids who died in a murder suicide a few weeks back? Love interest gone bad type of thing (happened right here in the springs). Sad really.

If it was a baseball game, it wouldn't have been mentioned the next day.

[originalpckelly]

17. It's weird because this is one large shooting at two locations.

Both shooting are connected, per CNN.

[kestrel91316]

22. Because America STILL isn't stoning the gays???

[Rageneau]

27. Considering how many people who DIDN'T get killed, maybe He does.

That's the irritating thing about believers. They thank God no matter HOW things go.

[Dukkha]

91. a massive compound with 10k members and security guards

is not my definition of a church

[eleny]

99. During the local news conference they just had - it was called a "campus"

When hubby and I were traveling through the south in 2004 we were commenting on the Baptist churches we remembered seeing as kids. They were intimate buildings, maybe even storefronts, where you got the impression everybody knew each other very well and probably were related. These days they're giant venues for "seeing and being seen". You know, places where shoes, hats and bags match the outfit.

[JVS]

119. They must remind him of you

[rocktivity]

19. I thought the shootings were too closely located to be isolated incidents.

So I was right--hooray for me.


rocknation

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Tragic.

Doesn't matter who did it, those innocent people are still dead.

[Lerkfish]

29. its a tragedy, regardless

why it makes it better for you that it was a former member is questionable.
I don't care who it was.

[The Magistrate]

32. politically, Sir, It Is Useful

The thing cannot be pumped into an illustration of 'persecuting Christians' on this background.

[Lerkfish]

38. and I find your remark distasteful and opportunistic

to take advantage of a tragedy to further your own political beliefs on whether christians perceive themselve to be persecuted, is repugnant, IMHO.

Imagine if a jewish synagogue were likewise attacked, would you be more relieved it was another synagogue member?

please, for once, view a tragedy as a tragedy. At least try to do something human.

[The Magistrate]

42. What Else Are Tragedies For, Sir, If Not Political Exploitation?

If a member of a synagogue shot up its congregation, among my reactions would indeed be some measure of relief it was not an expression of 'lone wolf' racialism. That is quite independent of the consideration of human cost, and certainly not an expression of approval of the action.

You are hardly the first to take me for something inhuman in the long course of my life, and those who know me best would tend to agree there is something vaguely reptilian in my make-up, though they seem to count it something of a plus....

"There is no accounting for tastes."

[Lerkfish]

47. well, if you're so proud of that

go be proud somewhere else. Believe it or not, some of us are thinking of the victims in a time of tragedy.

[The Magistrate]

50. Proud, Sir?

What has flat description to do with pride?

"Welcome to the graveyard of good intentions."

[Lerkfish]

52. is that a threat?

are you really threatening to tombstone me for asking for some human consideration in a tragedy?

well, if you must, I suppose.

[The Magistrate]

60. Thank You For The Laugh, Sir

The reference is a wry one reflecting on how a comment intended as nothing but explication resulted in what has come to pass, made in the same spirit as 'No good deed goes unpunished' often is....

[countingbluecars]

74. Perhaps a poor choice

of words for a moderator?

[The Magistrate]

76. It Still Seems Fine To Me, Sir

"The world is a mirror that shows back to us ourselves."

[Lerkfish]

77. the world would be a better place if more people

looked at themselves in a mirror.

he said, pointedly.

[The Magistrate]

83. You Will have To Hold Up Your End Better Than that, Sir

When writing dialog, a statement that cannot carry its intended import clearly is never redeemed by characterization: a statement is pointed or it is not, and saying it is pointed will not make it so....

"Drawing on my fine command of language, I said nothing."

[Lerkfish]

85. when arguing with a moderator who is relieved at news of tragic death

what end does one need to hold up? I would say the lowest moral ground has already been reached.

[Lerkfish]

78. and so I thought.

[scarletwoman]

101. Whoa whoa -- avast there, matie! It's just a quote about being misconstrued and/or missing a mark.

Much like the famous Robert Burns quote: "the best laid schemes o’mice an’ men/Gang aft agly"

It has nothing to do with tombstoning, or with you personally at ALL!

Peace,
sw

[Dorian Gray]

68. "What else are Tragedies For, Sir, If Not Political Exploitation?"

Wow. I didn't realize that there was a PURPOSE for tragedy. I that that they were tragic primarily because they are so pointless.

[The Magistrate]

80. Actually, Sir, A Thing is Considered Tragic

When it is the result of flaws in virtues, a downfall that could not have happened to a person were he or she not in many ways admirable, and pressed those admirable qualities past the point of virtues to make them vices.

It is true enough that looking for point and purpose in life and its events is a mug's game, but anything that arrests attention on a wide scale will be exploited politically, and persons attuned to political life will not fail to be aware of this on encountering any striking item i the day's news.

[treestar]

59. No other religion claims to be persecuted while in the majority though

Or claims that they have some sort of legal right to dominate over other religions.

At least, in the U.S.

I think what everyone is saying is clear, and you do realize that had the shooter been an atheist or a Muslim or some other group that fundies don't consider to be politically correct, that they would be attributing the shooting to that and their so-called persecution? Of course they would be using it for all they are worth, and that would include nonmembers of the Church. Pat Robertson, etc., would be right on it. So we're merely expressing relief at not having that.

[Bicoastal]

39. Wait, just because it's not useful to them...

...doesn't automatically make it useful to us.

I don't follow your reasoning.

[The Magistrate]

43. When An Enemy is Denied Something Of Value, Sir, That Is Beneficial

Were the shooter, say, a militant atheist determined on attacking church-goers as 'propaganda of the deed', it would have been a very useful rallying point for the enemy, and you may be sure The 700 Club and its ilk were geared up for that line already....

[Bicoastal]

46. Wouldja stop with the "Sir" already?!

I think that "Magistrate" title has gone to your head.

[piedmont]

48. That's his schtick, Sir.

[Sanctified]

49. My head just exploded, did you really say...

"Were the shooter, say, a militant atheist determined on attacking church-goers as 'propaganda of the deed', it would have been a very useful rallying point for the enemy,"

So who is the enemy, wow just wow and you are a moderator.

[Lerkfish]

51. I'm also repulsed by the statement

however I"m informed the moderating staff all agree together on all their decisions.

[The Magistrate]

55. These Are Simply My Personal Comments, Sir, On An Item In the News Today

You may agree, disagree, or pass over in silence, as you wish, and none of these courses will perturb me in the slightest.

[Lerkfish]

57. er, I think I just did

and it perturbed you enough to reply.

and yes, I do find your comments here distasteful and offensive, FWIW.

[The Magistrate]

67. You Offered A Source Of Amusement, Sir

"Fun is where you find it."

[Lerkfish]

84. well, if you find fun concerning tragic death

and a request for humanity, then I don't know what to tell you.

[The Magistrate]

53. On Democratic Underground, Sir

Is it really necessary to specify that the reactionary religious right, typified by bodies such as Robertson's 700 program, and groups like 'Focus on the Family' and similar vile bodies, stand as the enemy of left and progressive elements in our national life?

Do you doubt for a moment that had this incident developed along that hypothetical line, these would have used it as fodder for whipping to greater heat the delusions of persecution they cultivate in their followers?

[Lerkfish]

56. actually, yes I do doubt it.

for all their faults (and they have many), I guarantee you the religious right is right now be praying with and for the victims and their families.

[The Magistrate]

62. Not Much Of A 'Love Thine Enemies' Type, Myself, Sir

It interferes with accurate analysis....

[scarletwoman]

I think you are being over-generous. Think back to 9/11 and how Falwell and Robertson immediately

cast blame on homosexuality and secularism, etc. The religious right does not hesitate in the least to exploit and spin horrific events to the advantage of their message.

The first declarations from these "Christian" leaders was not one of prayerful sorrow for the dead, but of pointing the finger of blame at those elements of our society that they most despise.

In this case, since there is no apparent standard enemy to blame, it can hoped that they ARE "praying with and for the victims and their families", but it should not be assumed that this would be their first and/or sole emphasis if the shooter had turned out to have been an atheist or a Muslim, for example.

sw

[Sanctified]

75. I don't consider those people as enemies, I consider them as misguided.

I do not wish harm on my opposition, I do not want to see people hurt or injured because of my beliefs. The only people I would ever consider an enemy are those who would like to see physical harm come to me or my family.

[greyl]

120. Never fear, Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council is doing just that.

The LaBarbera Award: Tony Perkins
Jim Burroway
December 10th, 2007

Good Lord, what should we make of this? I received an FRC Action E-mail from Tony Perkins, as I often do. There’s an article praising Mike Huckabee, there’s another one chastising Congress, and then at the bottom, Perkins says this:

An Assault On Faith
It is hard not to draw a line between the hostility that is being fomented in our culture from some in the secular media toward Christians and evangelicals in particular and the acts of violence that took place in Colorado yesterday. But I will say no more for now other than that our friends at New Life Church and YWAM are in our thoughts and prayers.

It looks like Perkins has been chomping at the bit to pin the blame the Colorado shootings on somebody he doesn’t like. When it comes to culture wars, nobody is safe, and no tragedy is off-limits for exploitation. Here he chose the old familiar bogeyman, “the secular media.” We’re lucky I guess. It could have just as easily been anyone else.

I’m not sure how Perkins found it so easy to “draw a line” between the secular media and Matthew Murray, the Christian-raised guy who actually did the shooting. Unlike the FRC, we won’t imagine any lines where none exist. (Update: The most direct line so far may be mental illness.) And we call on the Family “Research” Council to live up to its name and do a little research before releasing statements that are so patently moronic. Why, they’re beginning to sound like someone else we know…
www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/12/10/1140

Atheists and Agnostics Group thread

[The Straight Story]

61. So they are the enemy?

And instead have given ammo to the loving progressives who spread hate against everyone in a religion (and because they are the majority it is not hate speech to say such things...even though it may cause someone with a bad mental state to buy into that christians are the worst evil in the world and killing them, especially if you used to be or are one of them is good for our 'side').

Does hate speech stop being that when it is against a majority (even though that majority is made up of individuals and not people of borg mentality)?

[The Magistrate]

66. Again, Sir

Had the person who carried out this crime proved to be acting from motivations of hatred for Christianity, and external to it in background, this incident would have been of great rallying value to the reactionary religious right. You are familiar enough yourself with that movement's publications and political drives to know this perfectly well. That it seems this person was formerly a member of that church, brought up within fundamentalism by persons militant enough in it to engage in home-schooling, is beneficial politically, in that it denies the reactionary religious right a rallying point, and as a person of the left, it does not trouble me in the slightest to speak of the reactionary religious right as my enemy.

[The Straight Story]

88. According to one source - he hated Christians

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iERwMLalB...

Not sure of the whole story yet though.

Breeding hate towards even those we do not like seems wrong. Disagreeing with their beliefs, etc, is one thing - but ridicule and hate only breeds more of the same.

[The Magistrate]

104. He was Raised By Fundamentalists, Sir

Home-schooled, the whole none yards, as they say. He applied to the missionary program and was rejected, it seems. He may at that point have rejected the faith of his father, or perhaps have just decided these particular Christians were hateful. But it is poor ground for the narrative of secular persecutors of Christ's Faithful here in Babylon. It is fit for homilies about the Devil prowling to snatch up souls, but these do not carry well outside the most committed followers. The facts of this case as known at present are such that people not already in thrall to hard right religiousity will not see it as external persecution, but rather as something arisen within the Christian community irself, and take it as a parable warning against the social isolation of home-schooling by fanatics.

[Lerkfish]

108. so...you're glad it wasn't an atheist so he wouldn't be used to demonize a group

and then you demonize a group.

you seem to have committed the exact atrocity.

[joshcryer]

110. Astute observation. Though it will be dismissed with some convoluted attempt at logic.

In the end we will see that the kid hated Christians and was likely no longer a believer in any religious entities at all.

It'll be interesting how it will be spun.

[The Magistrate]

111. 'Atrocity', Sir?

One wonders what word you would use to describe, say, throwing a nursery-full of infants onto a bonfire, or machine-gunning a few thousand captive people into a handy ravine, since you have committed "atrocity" to designate writing the rather mild descriptive comments above....

[The Straight Story]

115. Sorry, I don't see an issue with homeschooling, which I and my sister have done

My daughter is in public school now, mainly due to my wife's health and my previous work schedule.

The Amish 'homeschool' in a sense, and I don't see any of them out there shooting people

Public schooled kids have done a lot of killing (from serial killers to Columbine) - does that mean public school breeds killers?

I don't think bush was homeschooled, and look what we got with him....

My sister is about as fundie as people can get (not my cup of tea I might add) but has raised really smart and kind children who respect others and would never dream of shooting up folks in a church.

To boil it down to something so simple seems...well, simple

[The Magistrate]

116. As With Most Things, Sir, Milage Can Vary

When it is done to isolate children from developing the capacity to question parental beliefs, it is in my view a pernicious practice.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hunter]

114. Colorado killer 'hated Christians,' police official says

That was the original Huoston Chronicle web headline, the one Google picked up.

I should have captured it, because now it says:

Police: Colorado gunman targeted mission school

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/53637...

[RamboLiberal]

34. Shooter ID'ed - 24 years old

A 24 year-old Arapahoe County resident who spent his early years being home-schooled has been identified as the gunman in a shooting that claimed the life of two sisters at New Life Church, according to TV reports.

9 News identified Matthew Murray, whose last known address was at his parents unincorporated Arapahoe County home, as the shooter killed by a security guard at the church after opening fire with a rifle.

It remains unclear whether Murray is also connected to the shooting at an Arvada missionary training center prior to the rampage at the church.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7682958

The shooter at both a missionary center and a church Sunday in Colorado was a man who once worked on a mission with the center, a source familiar with the events said Monday.

The source said the gunman -- who was killed by a security guard at the site of the second shooting -- was Matthew Murray.

The shootings left four people dead, in addition to the gunman, and five wounded.

The source -- a long-time member of New Life Church, site of the second shooting -- said Murray had a falling out with Youth With a Mission after working with the organization a couple of years ago and that he sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence afterward.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/ind...

[malaise]

41. Was he abused my their leader?

Now we'll never know.

[FreeState]

106. Why would that be?

Have any evidence that the leader was abusive or just speculating here?

[CANDO]

44. Welcome back.........to the Wild, Wild, West!

Where everyone has to be packing for their protection. And this is what the NRA believes our society should be striving for? Everyone packing because of the madness. Churches, malls, schools, and in the streets! Let's here it for the NRA! God this makes me proud to be an American! Where's the exit doors? I want out.

[Alexander]

112. Yes, a violent psycho was stopped by a GUN OWNER. Imagine that.

I figured the gun-grabbing crazies would come out of the woodwork sooner or later.

Did you not read the part where he was reaching for a grenade, even while shot and bleeding?

We'd better make all churches "gun-free zones" because of today's events.

Because surely he would have turned around and gone home had he seen one of those "No Weapons Allowed" signs.

Right?

Right?

[CANDO]

124. FYI......I own THREE FIREARMS!

What you obviously failed to grasp in my statement, was the sad reality of violence permeating our society. Guns don't kill people. That is correct. People with guns kill people more effectively. And THAT is also CORRECT! But when some sick psycho decides he wants to kill, guns come in very handy when you want to do it quickly and efficiently, or if you want mass killings. Don't you grasp the irony. We should all be happy that in this modern NRA approved society, CHURCHES NEED ARMED GUNMEN FOR PROTECTION! Sorry for the shouting, but you obviously barked up the wrong tree. I own a .45ACP Semi-auto, A 7mm-08 deer rifle as well as a 12 ga. pump shotgun. I live and hunt in Pennsylvania. And I don't want to take away your sporting arms. What solutions do you offer to stop the gun madness? It's not just in the big cities. It's now in churches and universities, and shopping malls. What is the NRA's solution? Apparently everyone should pack like we live in the wild, wild west. I don't care to live that way, do you? What are your solutions?

[Samurai_Writer]

45. Isn't New Life Church Ted Haggart's old church?

I wonder what the story is with this guy. There's gotta be more than what the media is saying.

I'm sorry for the families of the victims.

[RamboLiberal]

72. Yes it is n/t

[treestar]

54. At least that'll mean they can't play the poor, persecuted Christians

card.

[Lerkfish]

58. yeah, they're just playing the dead card

silly them.

[Dorian Gray]

70. Oh Yes...

Thank God for THAT!

[Leo 9]

71. Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

Monday December 10, 2007 10:16 PM


By JUDITH KOHLER

Associated Press Writer

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The deadly shooting sprees at a megachurch and a missionary training school were believed to have been carried out by the same person - a 24-year-old suburban Denver man who ``hated Christians,'' a law enforcement official told The Associated Press.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation, identified the gunman as Matthew Murray, the son of a neurologist who is a prominent researcher on multiple sclerosis.

Five people - including a gunman - were killed, and five others wounded Sunday in the two eruptions of violence 12 hours and 65 miles apart.

The first attack took place at a youth missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvata; the other occurred at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where the gunman was shot and killed by a security guard.

The law enforcement official said Murray was believed to be the gunman in both attacks. Murray did not appear to have a criminal history but ``hated Christians,'' the official said. The official did not know Murray's religion, if any.

snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7141859...

[RamboLiberal]

73. Denver Rocky Mountain News: Gunman 'hated Christians'

Police believe Sunday's deadly rampages at a megachurch and a missionary training school were carried out by Matthew J. Murray, a 24-year-old Arapahoe County man who “hated Christians.”

Murray had recently sent “hate mail” to the Youth With A Mission training center after being kicked out of the program three years ago, a search warrant affidavit obtained today says.

“The common denominator with both locations of (the shootings), is a church based group called ‘Youth With A Mission’ (Y-WAM),” Colorado Springs Detective Bradley Pratt wrote Sunday in a statement supporting of search warrant for Murray’s family home in Arapahoe County.

“It appears that the suspect had been kicked out of that program approximately three years prior, and during the past few weeks, had sent different forms of hate mail to the program, and/or its director,” Pratt wrote.

Murray’s expulsion from the school was confirmed by Cheryl Morrison, whose husband, George Morrison, is pastor of the Faith Bible Chapel adjacent to Y-WAM Arvada. She didn’t know specifics of the conflict.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/10/cops-...

[pdxmom]

79. Hmmm....this is just horrible reporting. They say he "hated Christians", but

I don't see where that comes from. Sounds like he "hated" the Youth With a Mission center for kicking him out of the program.

This story is going to be distorted to make it Christian persecution, even if it is actually just a messed up person who hated a bunch of other people.

[gatorboy]

81. If they still have his emails.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[joshcryer]

94. Read carefully. He was kicked out 3 years ago. In that time he has bred contempt for Christians.

I mean how is this not obvious? You cannot spin this the other way. Clearly the kid, as in the last 3 major killing sprees (VA Tech, the Mall Shooting Spree, and his), was a nihillist who had nothing to fucking lose. In fact, the Mall Spree probably motivated him.

Let's just hope the "tragedies come in threes" thing isn't true.

[Saboburns]

82. er, um

Just posted on my local political message board by a genuwine fundy idiot.

The man who shot up a training center for missionaries and a church in suburban Denver, killing four people and wounding a number of others, has been identified:

"A law enforcement official says the deadly rampages at a megachurch and a missionary training school were believed to have been carried out by the same person?Matthew Murray, a 24-yeare-old suburban Denver man who "hated Christians."

It is perhaps worth noting that the toll in Sunday's shootings exceeded the combined total in all "hate crimes" against Muslims in the six years since September 11.

~powerlineblog

[Saboburns]

87. Magistrate, Sir

Major points for insight.

[K Gardner]

90. Security Guard: The Holy Spirit helped me end it.

Oh spare me.

[joshcryer]

92. That woman was brave as nails. She was just on local news here. The killer hated Christians.

They had a press conference and of course she thanked God and all that foldera, but that's beside the point. If you kill someone in self defense during apocylpatic panic you're prone to thank that which you believe in most for the courage.

Ironically the killer "hated Christians."

[charlie]

96. Yeah, hated Christians

Earlier in the day, a law enforcement source who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared that Murray "hated Christians."

Maybe we could wait awhile before we take the offhand assessment of an anonymous cop as gospel.

[joshcryer]

97. Nihilists tend to hate everyone. This guy is the absolute profile. The emails will come out.

And then we'll see.

But I think I'm right on this one.

[charlie]

98. What? How do you know he's a nihilist?

The guy was home-schooled, came from a God-soaked family, considered enrolling at Oral U, and did enroll at Colorado Christian last year. That's the "absolute profile" of a nihilist?

[joshcryer]

100. YES. Do you know what life is like being indoctrinated forever?

Being alone, not being able to explore your existance? I mean c'mon. I at least grew some balls and realized life *does* have meaning and got over myself. Same damn profile of the mall shooter man.

[charlie]

102. Same environment can produce

a nutter driven by righteous religious rage. Or someone completely broken from reality, who kills to assuage the voices that torment him. There is nothing we know yet that warrants these sensational "He killed because he hated Christians" headlines (or that he was a nihilist). Well, it's too late now. Fox and the like have their angle and that'll be the pitch that stays in the minds of millions, come what may.

[joshcryer]

103. If you live here you'll hear the local news reporting on the hate letter.

They wouldn't be reporting on it unless the police told them it existed and that it would be made publicly available. You don't go on a killing spree without some bizarre justification. He hated them for some stupid ass nihilistic reasons. I guarantee it.

You don't bring 1k rounds of ammo to a Church after killing people at a mission without being very fucking pissed off and full of hate.

[charlie]

105. Everyone's reporting on the letter

No one's doubting its existence. No one knows its contents either. Unless that's been reported locally. Do you know specifics from the letter?

There are any number of churches within minutes of wherever he happened to be. If he had a hate on for all Christians, he could've had greater success with a serial bloodbath, moving from church to church locally. It looks more likely he was pissed with specific people and organizations.

In any case, I'm not arguing against your certitude. I don't agree with it, but that's not my beef. You don't run national headlines as fact until you're sure you've got the facts. THAT's what's wrong here.

[joshcryer]

107. No, no church has as many people as New Life. He had 1k rounds of ammo. Repeat. 1k rounds.

He wasn't going to go to some small time church. New Life may have even been his parents' Mecca of sorts (to take someon elses comment).

Driving around would've got him caught much quicker. Killing sprees are most successful when you target a highly populated area and stick to it.

The mere reporting of "many hate mails" is enough to convince me of their veracity.

[charlie]

109. He didn't start with New Life

and he drove to another city an hour away. It would've been no problem finding a 1000+ church in Denver. It's obvious he was pissed at Youth With a Mission and until confirmed otherwise, the media and half of GD running with yet another War on Christians meme is unfounded bull.

The mere reporting of "many hate mails" is enough to convince me of their veracity.

Their veracity in regards to what? Hate mails targeted at whom? Christians? The world? Youth With a Mission? The AntiChrist? No one knows yet.

[Wcross]

95. She sent the killer home to Jesus.

She was a church security volunteer with a concealed carry permit. I am glad she was there, I wish she would have been able to save the two girls who were killed.

Yes, I was being sarcastic with the title but serious about the rest.

[ileus]

113. eternal salvation one must assume....n/t

[JBoy]

117. The killer wasn't holy, but she made him holey. n/t

[countryjake]

122. I figured he'd turn out to be a rejected member or some such.

Aren't they saying now that he was wearing so much ammo that the guard's shots aren't what killed him? Did he kill himself? Some of these reports they're giving are contradictory.