So now we know that pelosi was playing with us all along...

[Javaman]

her silence on the water-boarding issue makes her an accomplice in this whole fucked up new world order.

and now this little gem:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

She gets rid of a critic of water-boarding.

Like I have been saying for a while now, we have been treated to a grand kabuki review the likes of which history has never seen. And the best part, the Dems who are supposed to be the "adults that are now in charge" are no better than the sycophant repukes. With adults like this, we don't need abusive parents, because these dems are a hell of a lot worse than any child beater could ever dream to be.

Just think now to abu garib!! they fucking knew!! They gave the fucking green light to the bullshit that went down there!!

with their willful silence on water-boarding, abu garib now can be rightly hung around their necks as well.

The curtain has been pulled back folks. these...these, dems are not dems at all. They are enabling mother fuckers.

pelosi, if you have even and ounce of self respect you will make a statement about this water-boarding issue.

however, like everything these dems do, they will suddenly have a full schedule and not find the time. Kuncinich's impeachment bill anyone?

but you know, they were working their fucking fingers to the bone doing what ever other poor sap in this nation does day in and day out, work 5 days a week (some saps, 7 days a week, with multiple jobs) and now they cut back to 3 again. Because, it's an election year. Who gives a fuck about the people when more important stuff comes up, like trying to come up with new and creative back peddling to save their full of shit jobs.

I'm done. I'm done with them. I'm sticking by the true principles of the Democratic party, not this new bizarre bastardized version of closet repukes. Because, flame me all you want, but this news, paints them as just that.

Face it folks, it's no longer a matter of these so called dems growing a spine, it's an issue of them actually being dems. They have strayed so far from what it means to be a Democrat, it's an insult to the party and to us for them to continue calling themselves such.

We progressives are the Dems, We stand by the true platform.

They have left us. They don't listen to us. They don't give a damn about us. They only continue to line their pockets.

it's the people against the government.

Now sit back and take a comfy seat on the wild ride of bullshit that we are going to witness as the massive drama unfolds in a passion play that I like to call, "the great sycophantic backpedal"

On Edit: a very frightening thought just occurred to me. who else in congress knew about this water-boarding?? Who of the presidential candidates????? Is the body rotting far more from within than we realize?

[zabet]

1. They must think we are

mushrooms the way they try
to keep us in the dark and
feed us shit. :grr:

[L. Coyote]

26. BULLSHIT ALERT! This is a propaganda piece at best, or a cover up of BUSH crimes

BULLSHIT ALERT! This is a propaganda piece at best, or a cover up of BUSH crimes

1. Torture happened. Bush is the war criminal.
2. Bush Intelligence Community lies to Congress.
3. It is a crime to lie to Congress.
4. Bush says the USA does not torture.
5. They get caught on videotape; waterboarding is revealed.
6. Evidence surfaces that evidence was systematically destroyed.
7. Bush says he knows nothing about evidence he lied.
8. Obviously, Pelosi and the Dems are behind all this :rofl: RIGHT!! Yeah, when monkeys fly, when monkeys fly.

Sun Dec-09-07 03:06 PM by L. Coyote: Rep. Nancy Pelosi, It is a Crime to Lie to Congress, and the Torture Cover Up Conundrum.
From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2435841

"How to get out of this mess, now that we have been caught lying to Congress, a crime," someone in the Political Wingnut Office no doubt thought. Well, you already know the rest of the story. Or, do you? Maybe we all need to step back and do a little analysis. Some on ourselves for being fools, but mostly to see past the smoke and mirrors of daily deception and official lies, the daily bread that blinds like ergot on rye.

On further reflection, it seems a Political Wingnut went on the offensive before the cover up of torture becomes the crime de jour. Or is it crime of the hour now. It sure seemed like it last week. Brace yourself for this week, I'm guessing, because the real implications will soon surface. The Intelligence Community is bound by law to report to key members of Congress. So, guess who has the goods on the liars who did not report honestly to Congress? The ones being targeted by the recent propaganda assault, esp. the Speaker of the House, Rep. Nancy Pelosi.

NUMBER ONE: It is a crime to lie to Congress. Therein lies the inception of the real story.

NUMBER TWO: The Intelligence Community (read Bush Administration) is required by law to inform Congress of its war crimes, like torture!

There is your conundrum in raw formulation. Screwed if you tell on yourself, screwed if you did not. So now, we are seeing the after effects.

..... more .....

[Javaman]

30. Obviously, Pelosi and the Dems are behind all this RIGHT!! Yeah, when monkeys fly, when monkeys fl

they are not behind it but they gave it willful approval with their silence. good lord

[L. Coyote]

61. Not seeing the forest for the damn little schrub, that's what this is all about.

And the really sad part of the whole tragedy 'that American history has become' is the continuing blind acceptance of neocon confabulation, a gross political disorder which produces inaccurate memories ranging from subtle alternations to bizarre fabrications, not the least of which are daily fodder here on DU. Those confabulations seem to have replaced the reality of what is a crime, which crimes are most significant, who committed which crimes when, who is covering up the crimes with more crimes.

And why? So noone sees that forest, the thicket of crimes upon crimes, to protect the person who says, "The United States does not torture." How can such a blatant falsehood be covered up in the face of videotapes, photos, testimony, mutilated penises, the tortured and the still detained, and possibly the ongoing torture? By an orchestrated campaign of confabulation, including here on DU, they seem to think, by unwavering denial in the face of the facts, by insanity it seems, in a world of up is down and down is up.

An illegal war, killing hundreds of thousands, .... need I list the crime log. And what is the focus here on DU? Blaming and bashing the Dems is pure neocon crap. It makes no difference how many idiots repeat the same falsehoods, or try to diminish Bush's crimes, they will not be reduced to Dem bashing. And the Dem bashers are as much a part of the problem as any other confabulation. Stupid, damn MF conspiracy theorists!!

[Javaman]

82. Her silence is deafening.

she chose not to object. Period. I don't support cowards.

[tom_paine]

104. Before you bash those of us "Democratic bashers" perhaps you should read a little history

http://www.amazon.com/Defying-Hitler-Memoir-Sebastian-Haffner/dp/0312421133/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197208607&sr=8-2

I don't deny there is some truth to your statement, certainly what you say is the propagandistic projection that is going out to the Subjects of Imperial Amerika from the Bushies.

But the Democrats have simply, as we so often do, God Help, walked chin-first into the uppercut the Bushies had waiting for us, like when we let them convince us to "be nice and not insulting to Bushler" at the 2004 convention.

That worked out pretty good, and as I recall the Bushies reciprocated, right? Right?

Anyway, I have said this to you many times before and you never have an answer. Why, in 1994 with the political tables completely flipped, were the 'Pugs able to ram through impeachment against the wishes of 2/3rds of the American People when just before the Democrats had refused to Impeach Raygun because they would have had similar disapproval?

No one here has forgoTten who is responsible for Bushler's crimes, but the complicity and puzzling inactivity of the Democratic Leadership to oppose Bushler in any meaningful way is almost equally painful.

I expect the Bushies to behave like Kinder and Gentler Nazis, to mislead, obfuscate and lie; to torture and murder. It is what they have self-selected for now three decades, a fact now most self-evident.

But to have our Democrats behave this way? To become increasingly aware that Nancy Pelosi views us with almost as much contempt as the Bushies? To see seriasl-felonies shamelessly performed in open daylgith, essentially unopposed?

It is happened before. It will happen again. I now see it may well historic and human certainty, perhaps even akin to a great psychic pustule that must burst every half-century.

http://www.amazon.com/Defying-Hitler-Memoir-Sebastian-Haffner/dp/0312421133/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197208607&sr=8-2

But I digress. You said that you are pissed because we DUers seem to be forgetting who the real criminals are, but that's not it at all.

I can only speak for myself, but I suspect I am giving voice to what many are feeling, not that the Bushies' crimes are diminshed, but that our own Democratic Leadership had long ago betrayed us (with a handful of notable exceptions, like the now-dead Wellstone, or Feingold, Kucinich, and maybe 20 or 30 others, tops) and is more or less in cahoots with the Bushies because...well read Defying Hitler if you want to see how there is nothing new under the sun.

I and so many DUers have not forgetten the Bushies Crimes. We are just shocked and nauseated that the people we worked and donated so much for don't see us much differently than the Bushies do.

And some of us are feeling that enough is way too much. And it is beginning to look as if getting Democrats in office with the expectation that the Iraq War let alone Bushie Tyranny and detsruction of the Constitution will be rolled back is like expecting to fight a fire by throwing flour on it.

I apologize for reality's bias.

[Javaman]

167. Thanks :) I bow to the better writter.

cheers.

[colbertforpresident]

190. Lip Service

Thwe Dem leadership has paid us nothing but lip service. Nancy Pelosi is protecting Bush. She needs to go and take Harry Reid with her.

[Buzz Clik]

126. No! This was made very clear in previous hearings on top secret fyi sessions.

They were sworn to secrecy and had to sign statements of agreement prior to the briefing.

So, what do they do then? Throw themselves off the cliff for a hypothetical? Keep in mind that all this shit came out. You can bet your ass it wasn't the Bush administration that facilitated its release.

[razors edge]

143. They could have gone to the press with it

immediately and damn the consequences, but alas, their positions were more important to them than doing the right thing.

[Buzz Clik]

148. At the time it was presented, it was a hypothetical. Played the same way Bush plays it today.

"We won't torture because torture is against US law. We will do nothing that is outside of or in violation of US law. (But, I won't mention that I have the Office of Legal Counsel busy writing and re-writing the binding, legal interpretation of US law that will make all my pronouncements meaningless and empty.)"

Damn, man.

[razors edge]

191. Who in their right mind

would sit at a presentation from a bush appointee and believe a word of it to begin with.

I would have refused to sign a damned thing due to the fact I know I would be lied to anyway.

What possible purpose could their have been in the eyes of the Dems to attend a single one of these type of presentations to begin with? If you can't talk about it, you can't do anything to change it, you can only be dragged down in the future for being there in the first place, then maybe we don't have the smartest people in these positions of trust and power.

[Spiffarino]

220. Keep in mind this was 2002

America was a far more innocent place at the time, and the Office of the President still had some implied credibility. This was before so much came out about cover-ups, cooked intelligence, outright lying and every other nasty thing BushCo has since become known for.

The Dems in the delegation were told about a hypothetical program and this knowledge was probably intended to blackmail them into silence at a later time. Considering the penalty for revealing what went on in the briefings includes prison, they are unlikely to divulge anything about it. That proves they are weaklings.

However, it is also illegal for the Executive to reveal this information unless has been declassified. If it has been, Congress members can divulge the information without penalty. If it is still classified, then whoever leaked it needs to be found and brought up on charges.

[colbertforpresident]

192. enable or

IMPEACH!

[Control-Z]

218. And the press would have

what? Jumped up and begged to tell the truth for a change?

[pokercat999]

246. There is a solution...term limits, one term in ANY

federal office and your'e OUT, forever! 300M+ Americans and this is the best we can do.....we deserve what we are getting.

[razors edge]

247. I like the sound of that. n/t

[Javaman]

249. I totally agree...

Jokingly, I say to my friends, that we should do away with elections and hold a lottery. Everyone in the US is eligible.

This way we would see an active democracy at work were everyone has the potential for being involved.

the decisions of the winners certainly couldn't be any worse than the ones we are getting now. LOL

[pokercat999]

254. What's so disheartening is that you're right about the

decisions part. When was the last time one of our "leaders" took a position on a major issue that was unpopular with the MSM because "it was the right thing to do" as opposed to taking the politically expedient view?

[enough already]

232. Don't bore me with secrecy oaths

They laid out a plan of war crimes. It was the duty of every last person in that room to blow the lid off it. I've never been so disgusted in my life to find out that our 'leaders' were in on this fucking torture. I expect it from the Chimp. This is the end. I can't take any more of this shit.

[Orsino]

255. They could have...

1) ...objected at the time.
2) ...refused to go along with any more "war on terror" initiatives until torture was unambiguously (and believably) banned.
3) ...blown the whistle.
4) ...kept quiet about it and hoped the subject would never come up.

Pelosi seems to have chosen #4.

[OzarkDem]

They're complicit

and apparently that's why they don't want to impeach Bush or Cheney, because it would incriminate some of them, also.

You lay down with dogs, you get fleas. They should accept the consequences and resign.

[KoKo]

236. Sadly...it seems the evidence mounts...high level Dems on Commitees who were briefed "Approved"

everything BushCo wanted to do and was doing. That they refuse to do more than hold hearings shows that the complictiy was at the TOP and by folks that we Dems out here were counting on to bring the Bushies to Justice when we finally took back House and Senate.

Their behavior towards Progressive Dems and Code Pink and any Activist Movement by Dems...where they treat us with Disdain was the clue that THOSE DEMS IN HIGH COMMITTEE POSITIONS were IN ON IT WITH THE BUSHIES! THEY KNEW...even those who were ANTHRAXED CAVED...while feigning anger. They were cowering in their disgrace.

[natrat]

84. typical-try to create an us vs. them dynamic to perpetuate the lie-kind of funy in a sad way

[ooglymoogly]

111. Perhaps you are right on the being lied to and the smoke and mirrors, the question though is

Why are members of congress so easily fooled? Why do they allow the smoke and mirrors to begin with? Are they stupid or do they just lack good judgment? Why do they not see through the lies they are being fed? Many of us on DU have seen through the smoke and mirrors, seen through the lies that took us to war, why can't they? Should people so easily duped be walking the halls of congress? Are they rubes? I think kabuki is not an unfair characterization of the government who made the mess we find ourselves in though I would qualify it as more of a corporate kabuki. We need to identify the corporate dems and try to weed them out. Feingold and Kucinich saw through the smoke and mirrors and used sound judgment. Entry to congress has become gaining a place at the corporate feeding troff that we are paying for.

[ooglymoogly]

115. self delete wrong place.

[Buzz Clik]

125. Excellent post! It's time DU got a fucking grip!!!

The insanity around this place is at an all-time high.

[roguevalley]

138. so knowing about it and being silent is okay. when the repugs do

that, we burst into flames but with her, we laugh. I don't think so. Silence is murder. Silence is agreement. Fuck pelosi.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. Does it not bother you in the least

that you keep posting in all the threads on this topic and NO ONE agrees with you? Well maybe one or two, but the vast majority of DU is OUTRAGED over this information and you are jumping into every thread calling "bullshit"!

You have been outvoted by a HUGE margin and yet you continue to belittle and criticize DUers for being angry about this.

Do you work for Pelosi? I can't think of any other reason you would defend her for this.

And if you DO work for her, tell her she is losing support FAST. Thanks! :hi:

[aggiesal]

181. There is some truth to your BS alert, but ...

because Pelosi did not condemn the action, she pretty much condoned it.
If this were a behind the doors meeting (i.e. SECRET), she could easily
have written a SECRET memo condoning torture, specifically waterboarding.

By not condoning torture, she eliminated her ability to condone it, in the
future. Now she faces the RW echo machine calling her a hypocrite, if she
speaks out against it, instead of condoning torture in 2002.

[liberalmuse]

2. It's quite the betrayal, isn't it?

I don't think I've ever been as angry as I have been today. You expect Republicans to be facist, torture-loving cretins, but not the Democratic Speaker of the House. I wish hell would open up under D.C. and swallow the lot of them (except Feingold, Frank, Kucinich and maybe about a handful of others).

[Tom Joad]

5. It helps if you never expected anything any different from Pelosi.

low expectations... it helps.

[Javaman]

96. You're right...

I have to break out of the old mold from year gone by of holding our "elected" officials to a higher standard.

I get nothing but disappointed from the "people that should know better".

[specimenfred1984]

215. SUCKERS got taken again! Chimp's torture policy is all Pelosi's fault!

I knew it, I knew it! Boy I'm smart! Good thing blame is finally placed on Pelosi!

BARFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[Javaman]

231. yet another lock step dem who finds it impossible to question the democratic leaders.

enjoying the blinders?

[L. Coyote]

69. This is absolute absurdity. Pelosi is not a "facist, torture-loving cretin"

That is pure BS, and you either know it or you have been sold a pack of lies.

[Truth2Tell]

107. People are pissed - Dems are pissed

why does this surprise you? It's no surprise that Bush and Co. are criminals. No one disagrees with that here. What is surprising is when we find out that the Congressional oversight police have known about the crimes for some time and done nothing. That's a whole new and upsetting issue. It doesn't mean we're propagandists for the criminals. It doesn't mean we want to split the law-abiding citizens amongst themselves. What it means is that we've discovered accomplices in our own ranks. You can bury your head in the sand on this one - but it's a serious problem.

[Tom Joad]

3. right now they are busy refunding the war.

"Money for war, not for people!"
should be Pelosi's theme for re-election.

or maybe
"i will fund this war until there are a hundred grieving mothers running for my seat"

or "I promise to protect Cheney because i know my ass is on the line too"

[grasswire]

4. it looks to me tonight that the definition of a progressive...

....is "quick to judge, with a frightening tendency toward lynch mob mentality."

You people are really scaring me today.

[Javaman]

7. Oh so you are okay with her silence on water-boarding?

and you are okay with them giving a green light to continue funding the war?

Yeah lynch mob based on facts is always so reactionary. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

10. What was she supposed to do?

She wasn't the speaker at the time, and she was under strict security rules - she couldn't go public with it.

I can't believe everybody's falling hook line and sinker for the WashPost propaganda piece.

[JackBeck]

14. Neither can I.

A year after 9/11, how quickly people forget what the political climate was like. If you disagreed with anything this administration did you were quickly labeled a "traitor", which the MSM was all to willing to spread.

[EFerrari]

20. And that was just all the more reason to keep speaking up.

Other members did manage to do that. I've made excuses for Nancy until I nauseate myself.

She is responsible.

[JackBeck]

28. One year after 9/11. Bush has skyrocketing approvals.

Her voice, as a minority member, would have been regarded as laughable at the time.

It's easy for some of us to play Monday morning quarterback 5 years later, but you have to remember this is politics. Gains and victories are achieved without showing your hand the moment you think you have a win.

[Javaman]

33. And she has been going gang busters as majority leader.

:eyes:

[JackBeck]

40. We're not talking about what she has done as Madame Speaker.

We're talking about what happened before that.

She's gotten lots of legislation passed in the House since her appointment. I'd argue that having a Senate unable to break a filibuster is more to blame for not getting any pending legislation to the President's desk, than faulting Pelosi.

But we aren't talking about that. We're talking about something that happened over 5 years ago.

[grasswire]

70. it is the Republicans who are obstructionist

I don't see anyone on DU tonight placing the blame for our national nightmare on Republicans in Congress, and yet they are to blame for obstructionism that allows Bushco to run rampant.

Harass some Republicans!

They are the only ones who can really stop him.

[Javaman]

79. Sure they are obstructionists, but lets face the facts...

the dem leaders aren't what you call stella either in their performance.

[grasswire]

196. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is the Republicans who have the power to allow votes, to pressure Bush, to make many, many different actions that would stop the torture and the war and the looting and the encroachment on our liberties. They have the power to do all that. Democrats don't. Beating up Dems is infinitely less productive than beating up Republicans would be.

I don't see you hassling Republicans.

[Javaman]

199. Oh come on. You are seriously suggesting that we don't

give the repukes crap when they fuck up daily?

come on, seriously.

[grasswire]

204. you pressure individual GOP members of Congress?

Show me. Tell me. You phone them? You protest outside their offices? You FAX them? You wrote LTTE? You e-mail them?

When's the last time you contacted Boehner?

When's the last time you started a thread pressuring any Congressional Republicans?

[Javaman]

206. I have no choice, I live in texas. I have a stack of return form letters from

from hatchetface hutchison and the old crone cornyn.

writing letters to them is like mailing something to the furnace. LOL

[grasswire]

214. BS

You can certainly hassle any elected Republican. The calls and letters add to the pressure, even if you aren't their constituent. And the other methods -- LTTE, online activism, etc. -- those are certainly open to any Democrat.

I'm calling you out on this one. You are not taking the fight to those who can ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Republicans.

[Javaman]

230. ah what?

my writing to them is not good enough for you, screw you. apparently you don't live in texas.

and here in a nut shell is why there is division in the party. take your high horse someplace else.

[grasswire]

233. now you're telling me to leave DU?

Is that it?

Or is it that you're tired of someone urging you to do something useful with your energy?

[Javaman]

243. No, I'm just saying go peddle your self righteousness with someone else.

a bit touchy aren't you?

so I say again, me writing my reps is just not good enough for you? oh shaw, what am I to do? My efforts don't cut mustard with you. How will my life possibly go on?

We all do what we do. If you have the time to do more, well bully for you.

jesus, cut down on the coffee.

[grasswire]

244. well, the time you spent jawboning this on DU...

...could have been spent hassling some Republicans.

Just sayin'.

[Javaman]

248. dupe nt

[Javaman]

250. And so could have you.

So please stop preaching it's annoying.

[gtar100]

240. It's not forgotten. I think everyone is well aware of republican BS ...

and who's to ultimately blame. But the topic at hand is "Democratic" complicity in it. I can hold both ideas in my mind just fine - Stupid, f#@*ing republicans screwing everything up and too many democrats who allow it to go on. That's clear to me. I should know, I've got good ol' Ken Salazar supposedly representing me. I think we could do better - or Ken could stop listening to the republican line of bullshit he's got streaming through his doors everyday (I know he has it in him to be a real dem...come on, ken, you can do it!).

So let me put it nicely...Fuck Pelosi for knowing about what was going on and then coming back several years later as Speaker and declaring impeachment off the table.

There. And I still think *sh and cheney are war criminals and are treasonous, heinous reprobates.

[natrat]

85. yea but alot of her legislation is bull shit that has no chnce of final passage

it's part of the charade-ie the recent energy bill where she loaded on tax hikes for oil producers that even surprised environmentalists--therebye ensuring nonpassage---she is a scumbag of the highest order

[TriMetFan]

91. As Madame Speaker.......

She took Impeachment Off The Table. That my friend speaks volumes.

[Javaman]

103. Exactly and since her main job is to protect the constitution...

she has failed miserably in that endeavor.

[EFerrari]

35. There is a large contingent of us who never gave up our principles

after 9/11. Like the millions of people who marched against the invasion.

There is no justification for torture. None. And any politician worth their salt should have the skill to deal with that.

[Javaman]

38. Thank you! nt

[JackBeck]

51. You aren't alone, for sure.

But how did the media portray us before the invasion?

During the invasion?

After the invasion?

We're seen as "radicals" even if we are some of the most peaceful demonstrators since '68 Chicago.

Of course there's no justification for torture. But after 9/11, if you recall the fear and power that this administration had over ALL OF US, dissension was not allowed. Remember the Dixie Chicks? You don't think that resonated? Not to mention how we now know that wiretapping had been more invasive than during Nixon.

It's easy to say one is not giving up their principals, therefore they are better than members of Congress they feel are complicit in torture. But you need to remember the atmosphere of the time and how those who objected were publicly silenced.

[EFerrari]

52. I largely agree with you, Jack. But, that's what "leader" means,

right?

That's what a leader does. They kick in when things get tough. I remember buying a peace flag on line and being afraid to put it up in my conservative neighborhood. And that's why I had to do it.

I really agree with you about the climate of that time. And, that's when we need leaders to do their job, in times like those.

[JackBeck]

56. I'm glad we've found a common ground.

But at the end of the day, seriously, how do we ever know what deals are being made? I don't want to sound too cynical, but we ultimately don't know what they are doing and what concessions are being agreed upon.

So when the word "leader" gets tossed around I don't know how to react because I think it's all one big farce.

I'm even over C-SPAN because I'll watch our "leaders" saying one thing, and then when I get up in the morning other deals have been made so that another understanding can be reached.

The LGBT community has had years to get used to the abuse. Maybe that's why I'm so cynical.

[EFerrari]

62. Imho, the way that the LGBT community is being treated

should be a big red flag for everyone.

I'll see you at the Tuesday night Cynics meeting. :)

[Usrename]

135. Yeah, that's true.

Torture and extraordinary rendition are not illegal when the president is popular.

Good point.

[EFerrari]

17. Chew gum and walk.

The WaHo piece is propaganda AND Nancy has done nothing to stop this horror.

[Javaman]

18. Yeah, couldn't do anything...integrity is only for suckers.

Sorry, silence is just as bad as giving it the green light.

I allow her no room for excuses on this news.

Don't recall the outrage by the dems after abu garib broke? So what was their reaction real? or was it just a show? we will never know, but I do know this, I will never ever trust a thing she or the others that stood by the sidelines ever again.

Once upon a time in this nation, it was patriotic to voice ones descent. The dems silence allowed it to be demonized. That alone is crime enough. The hard things in life are never easy.

[Tom Joad]

19. she could have gone public to attack Bush's push for torture

this was quite open. this "she didn't have any options" thing is a joke.
I was speaking against torture for years... why wasnt she? why didn't she call for a house investigation?

[creeksneakers2]

39. Democrats were in the minority

There was no way an investigation was going to happen. And if she had asked for one, the Republicans would have been all over the airwaves accusing Pelosi of supporting terrorists. She would have been arrested to if she had a slip of the tongue.

She protested to the administration in 2003. That's all she could do.

[Ignis]

162. "She protested to the administration in 2003." -- WRONG!

From the article:
"Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.

Harman, who replaced Pelosi as the committee's top Democrat in January 2003, disclosed Friday that she filed a classified letter to the CIA in February of that year as an official protest about the interrogation program. Harman said she had been prevented from publicly discussing the letter or the CIA's program because of strict rules of secrecy."

Pelosi did not protest to the administration in 2003, Harman did. Pelosi was too busy...er...with something, I'm sure. Something far more important than protesting torture by the US Government.

:shrug:

Cheers to Jane Harman for doing what she could within the confines of her secrecy oath, at least. :thumbsup:

[MonkeyFunk]

42. No

she's not allowed to violate national security rules.

[Tom Joad]

73. she didn't have to reveal the content of the meeting.

she could have done more.

she could be planning today to announce that the House would approve no more funds for the war. but they are busy instead working to fund the war.

My response. i have no problem with the horse she rode in on. but as for her.....

[midnight]

29. You bring up very important points. She was not speaker, and

she couldn't go public. Now she is speaker. When can a public leader go public with abuse?

[Javaman]

32. She was silent then and she is silent now.

and just keep repeating her mantra, "impeachment is off the table".

enabling sycophants

[MonkeyFunk]

44. If you can't see

that this whole story is a right-wing effort to "spread the blame", then you're just being a fool.

You're not just buying it - you're encouraging it!

This is Bush's war. This was Bush's torture. They're trying to claim that both parties are equally responsible when that's patent bullshit, but god forbid I interrupt a good DU Pelosi feeding-frenzy.

You people are sick.

[Javaman]

83. If there is blame to be spread then why not?

silence is acceptance at this point.

[Javaman]

105. And if she was so against it but couldn't do anything then...

what's holding her back now?

her taking impeachment off the table, knowing what I know now that she knew torture was happening then, is flagrant abuse of authority and gross neglect for the constitution and geneva conventions.

If she is all so against torture, what keeps her from starting impeachment proceedings, which by the way starts with and investigation, not a vote.

[panzerfaust]

176. "You people are sick". Damn Right We Are!

Sick of being sold down the river by 'leaders' who, in many cases, are as wholly owned by Capital as any GOPer.

Sick of being sold out by leaders who take no principled stand because they have no principles.

Sick of the lame excuses offered for doing nothing to preserve our democracy.

Sick of the abject spinelessness of the Democratic Party.

Sick of being ashamed that we, in fact, have NO national leaders:

Look at the pathetic performance of our ENTIRE congress on 9/11 - hiding in the basement all day, only to creep out after dark to whine to Heaven for help; the executive branch was no better - Bush appearing erratically to talk a few moments until his head emptied out (likely stunned by how well the plan had worked) then disappearing while it was filled up again. As I pointed out at the time the ONLY politician who showed any courage, any leadership at all, was the known scumbag Guilanni - who was, by damn, near the scene, and who presented news-conferences that had some substance to them.

The coup of 2000 is not going to be set aside by the likes of our current 'leaders' who give the thugs free run over our democracy.

"Impeachment is off the table?", Impeach them all I say: All of the corrupt 'leaders' who are not honoring their oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.

[colbertforpresident]

193. Crime

If it is a crime then she could always go public! She is a WEAK leader!

[liberalmuse]

54. I can't believe you're ignoring the facts. They're out there, beyond the wapo story.

Continuing with your line of reasoning, what were the Nazi's supposed to do? Hitler was the one who ordered the death camps. They were only following orders.

[JDPriestly]

77. If "the laws" do not allow congressment to go public when the

administration is violating international law, then "the laws" need to be changed. That what Congress is there for -- to change laws that need changing as well as to enact new laws that need to be enacted.

[rateyes]

92. She could have done what Jane Harman did and filed

a formal complaint. Instead, she not only remained silent, she approved of the program. No disapproval is tacit approval. My bet, she was more than "tacit."

[librechik]

108. Divide and conquer n/t

[lazer47]

109. Bull Sh** You cannot make crimes classified, that is bull shit,,

she knew, she should have spoken out,,,

[The Stranger]

121. She can take the "strict security rtules" and shove them is what she can do first.

She is an accomplice after the fact to multiple crimes and likely a co-conspirator to obstruct justice.

[stlsaxman]

227. agreed, MonkeyFunk, WaPo bullshit...

and all these folks here jumping on a bandwagon which is turning into a flaming hayride.

[grasswire]

15. I am NOT okay...

...with such a disdain for the pursuit of truth that an unsourced story from The Washington Post causes (alleged) Democrats to accuse the Speaker of the House of treason and crimes against humanity.

That kind of barking mad hysteria is usually the style of the far right. I'm seeing wild eyes and cudgels here today in numbers disproportionate to the actual facts of the story as a careful review will show.

[colbertforpresident]

198. Start a fire

She needs a fire under her ass. She's been enept and complicit. She needs to grow a backbone and stop being a political coward!

[creeksneakers2]

16. "Too quick to judge" is the correct analysis

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, among the lawmakers who attended the briefing, issued a statement on Sunday saying that she eventually did protest the techniques and that she concurred with objections raised by a Democratic colleague in a letter to the C.I.A. in early 2003.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/washington/10intel.html

Pelosi should have objected right from the start but she did object. Being sworn to secrecy, that's all she could possibly do. I think the colleague Pelosi cooperated with was probably Jane Harman, who also objected. Pelosi's conduct isn't a black and white issue.

World views should be determined from facts, not the other way around.

[Javaman]

22. Yeah, eventually. It's always great to close the door after the horse is gone.

Once she didn't protest, the door was flung open, never ever to be closed again. So I'm just delighted that she "eventually" protested.

That's like saying, "I was for it before I voted against it". now where have we heard that before?

[hfojvt]

50. Where have we heard that before?

I guess from John Kerry, and it may have been poorly worded and allowed the M$M and RWNM to make hay, but it was essentially correct and essentially reasonable.

[Javaman]

80. Also from hillary and edwards. nt

[King Coal]

114. Yeah, because the bill he was talking about was changed. He should have said that.

[liberalmuse]

55. Sworn to secrecy about illegal torture? That's your defense? Good Christ!

That is a pathetic and weak excuse. She had the power to do something, but didn't. We're talking about rule of law. War crimes. This IS black and white.

[L. Coyote]

71. Where are you getting your info from, Bush himself? Porter Goss?

Where did you get your idea about "silence on water-boarding"? Porter Goss? Someone in the CIA who destroys evidence? Do you even have a clue who?

[Javaman]

161. So you haven't read the WP story, I assume? nt

[Buzz Clik]

127. Straight from hysterical extrapolation to condemnation of those who don't agree. Nicely played!

[Downtown Hound]

8. And I guess the definition of rational is to keep making excuses

for crimes against humanity and the nation.

[grasswire]

23. you know, Dems can do more than two things at once

We and our leaders are smart enough to hold that torture isn't okay AND that our Speaker was not allowed to speak about the work of the Intelligence Committee. The fact that she was not allowed to speak about the workings of the committee does not mean she condones torture. Those of us who wait for members of the committee to respond to today's news don't condone torture either.

Wise up.

[Javaman]

24. Oh yeah, I forgot. the world changed completely after 9/11...

so keeping silent on torture is okay as long as it all falls under the super secret intel committee. I know for certain Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Ben Franklin would certainly go along with that.

more excuses.

[grasswire]

31. calm down

you're illustrating precisely what is pushing me tonight away from any association with progressivism -- the same refusal to seek truth that is the hallmark of the far right.

[Javaman]

36. Awww, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings...

but this is our goddamn country I'm talking about. And I will not stand idly by and be calm, we have all be way to fucking calm.

If you want to take the ration approach, go right ahead, but you know what? It's gotten us no where.

And If I want to be fucking pissed off at our failed leaders, I will be fucking pissed off.

The left me, I supported them in the hopes that they would do the right thing and time and time again they have shown to me that they incapable of doing the right thing.

And in light of this news, it shows me that they had no intention of doing the right thing from the start.

[grasswire]

45. you didn't hurt my feelings

But I urge you to consider this: you are acting just as the freepers did every time Richard Mellon Scaife sent out his minions with a new attack on Bill Clinton. They took each tidbit as gospel truth, with no regard for evidence or due process or the Rule of Law.

Do you not have ANY room for the idea that The Washington Post has just catapulted propaganda at you?

Do you really place that much trust in an unsourced story in The Washington Post?

Because if you are that trusting of people who are known liars and propagandists that you cannot even wait for a response from your own party, then the only word for you is.....dupe.

[Javaman]

81. have fun with that. I will not sit idly by while our country

spins deeper into the bullshit.

How does a paper spin silence? She didn't speak up. Yeah secret meeting this, top secret that.

She didn't speak up, to me that tells me volumes.

Silence is acceptance at this point. Or have you been ignoring the last 7 years.

You won't convince me otherwise so you might as well just give up now.

[colbertforpresident]

200. It's not just this issue

This is just another slap in the face to the people that voted for the dems last November.

[Javaman]

202. yup.

we live in the era of the short attention span.

many people on this site suffer from it.

[Downtown Hound]

34. I don't need to wise up

You need to realize that this is bigger than torture. We elected this party to do something about the fascism that has been taking place in this country. Well, since they've been elected they have granted Bush the legal authority to go to war with Iran, continue torture, continue the war in Iraq, do jack shit about global warming, and now we find out that they knew about the torture all along, and yet still voted to give Bush more power.

There's a lot more going on here than a case of the poor Democrats who really, really, REALLY wanted to do something about all these things, but couldn't because they were in the minority or they weren't allowed to speak or they didn't have the correct intelligence or shucksy wucksy, they didn't know then what they know now or whatever other lame excuse you or they themselves or anybody else can come up with to defend the indefensible. They are complicit. They have always been complicit. If you don't see that then you are the one who needs to wise up.

[creeksneakers2]

49. Read more, scream less

The White House is already complaining about reports that House and Senate conferees have come to an agreement on an intelligence measure mandating that all agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency, comply with the Army Field Manual’s outlawing of torture. The manual properly reflects American law by explicitly proscribing the gamut of torture measures — including waterboarding — that have proved dear to the heart of administration zealots.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09sun2.html?ref=opinion


They passed a torture ban in 2005. As far as has been discovered, that law hasn't been violated.

ALSO

Bush was not granted legal authority to go to war with Iran. If he had, I would have heard about it.

[Downtown Hound]

58. Apparently you missed it then

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12456

A quote:


The Democrats removed a stipulation that Bush had to get Congressional approval before attacking Iran. With the U.S. openly threatening Iran and with war preparations at an advanced stage, and given the Bush regime’s track record of launching pre-emptive wars based on lies—this amounts to giving Bush a bright green light to attack Iran.

This was discussed quite extensively on DU when it happened, so either you weren't here when it went on or you completely missed it. Maybe you should read more?

And I'm sure that torture ban is really working wonders, especially in all of our secretly operated overseas prisons. Why, now they actually have to hold a debate on whether or not waterboarding constitutes torture or not while they continue doing it. Yep, that ban sure stopped 'em in their tracks.

Yeah you're right, Pelosi and the Dems have done amazing things to stop this administration. :sarcasm:

And just for the record I'm not screaming. I'm quite calm right now. If I was screaming you would know it, even though you can't hear my voice.

[grasswire]

57. I would extend to you the right you deny them

...the right to be presumed innocent until the evidence shows otherwise. It's very unamerican to deny an accused person the right to be presumed innocent.

Are you so trusting of The Washington Post that you will accept its unsourced story to the degree that you accuse our Speaker of treason and crimes against humanity?

Are you that trusting of a news corporation known to lie and catapult propaganda planted to hurt Democrats time after time after time?

Is there no room in your passion for the possibility that you are turning on your own fellows without justification?

To me, that possibility is abhorrent. That's what freepers do. They take a hysterical tidbit and go crazy with it, truth be damned.

[Downtown Hound]

59. On the contrary, I fully support their right to defend themselves

in a war crimes court, with full defense counsel, under the full weight of the law. They can make their case there. And they will never be tortured and have full legal representation, unlike what so many of their victims have been denied.

[grasswire]

68. You do know that your opinion has no bearing...

....on whether or not a crime has been committed by Speaker Pelosi that warrants a "war crimes court" don't you? You say that her right is to be defended in a war crimes court, when actually her rights (and yours) are far more broad. You've skipped a great deal of the legal process required by the Rule of Law, and go directly to imprisonment and trial!

What say you about the presumption of innocence guaranteed us all under the Rule of Law?

The leaders of totalitarian countries are attacked and convicted by a tainted press in league with the dark side of the country's power seekers -- sometimes with unsourced agitprop!

Here, in America, most people believe transparency, calm deliberation, and a search for truth are national virtues.

Beware those who rush to judgment. Beware.

[Downtown Hound]

74. You're absolutely right, it has nothing to do with my opinion

You see, the laws against torture exist regardless of my personal feelings or thoughts. It's illegal, whether or not I have any personal opinion about it whatsoever. And those who engage in it are criminals, whether or not I have any personal opinion about it or not. And those that know about it and are in a position to do something about it and not only don't but quietly go along with or support it are just as guilty as those who commit it themselves, if we are to give any credence to what was learned at the Nuremberg trials. And all if this would still be true regardless of what my personal opinion is.

You keep talking about presumption of innocence under the rule of law. To answer your question, yes I believe in it very strongly. And I have given the Dems quite a lot of it in the past. I kept voting for Clinton even though he kept selling out to the corporations, telling myself that he was doing what he needed to do because of the situation he was in. Then I kept supporting the Dems even as so many of them wet their pants in the run up to the Iraq War and gave Bush everything he wanted. I told myself that even though I didn't like it, things would be different if they had a majority. And I have continued to support the party even though I'm disgusted by its leaders today.

But at some point my patience runs out. At some point you've got to call them on their bullshit. And the truth is, they've done virtually nothing to remedy the disgraceful actions of the Bush regime, and in fact many of them are actively aiding it. If you want to call years of giving them the benefit of the doubt and making excuses for them being reactionary and quick to judgement, then so be it. I would have to disagree with you, though.

You want to know what I really believe? I think there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes in the corridors of power in Washington than any of us realize. There are forces and interests at work, and they have a stranglehold on both parties. After years of watching politics, I'm getting the very strong impression that We the People are being seriously toyed with. We have one party that's fascist, and the other party that claims to be the anti-fascist party (although they're too scared to actually use that word, that's how much of a bunch of tough fighters they are), and yet when really crucial votes come up that would really damage the fascist agenda, they never seem to get passed even when the Dems have this majority that so many of us thought would be all they needed to get some work done. And when bills come up that seem to really promote the fascist agenda, they always seem to get passed even when the Dems have this long-sought after majority that so many of us thought would be all they needed to get some work done. Oh, you're probably going to say that their majority is only of a slim margin. Yeah, I'm sure everything would be different if they had a filibuster proof majority. Then things would be all right.

And you know what my thoughts on that are? If they ever got this filibuster-proof majority, they'd do everything they could to keep it, which would mean pandering to the right wing and the corporations once again. But I'm sure that once they really, really got a huge majority after that, things would be different right? So all they really need is an impossible majority in Congress and a lock on the presidency and then, then, we can expect them to do something about torture, the war, civil rights, and the environment. In other words, I won't be holding my breath. If they can't stand up for justice when they're down they're not going to do it when they're standing up tall. If they get to power by selling out then that is how they will exercise their power once they have it.


Beware those who attempt the same things over and over again and expect a different result. Beware. A wiser man than myself once said that it is the very definition of insanity.

[grasswire]

75. well, you are talking about two things

1. Your feelings.

2. The law.

When people's feelings bring them to make statements that allude to or call for ignoring the law when it comes to our commonly held protections, we citizens are in danger.

Even if I agreed with your feelings about this matter 100 percent, I would have to resist any attempts to rush to judgment in matters legal against ANY citizen.

[Downtown Hound]

76. When did I allude to a call for ignoring the law?

This whole thread is about a demand for accountability in upholding it. Ignoring the law would be to give our party leaders a pass on doing the same things we've condemned Bush for doing for years now.

[Javaman]

106. Thanks for your previous post, very well said. nt

[hfojvt]

46. I hate to publucly agree with you

Since I have already been judged by a large part of DU, but :applause:

I'm also surprised that it apparently took me half an hour to type my own post, but I read the WaPo article first to see what the big deal was.

[liberalmuse]

53. I think I have enough information to make an intelligent assessment of the situation.

Pelosi's office has come out and stated that she had indeed been fully briefed on Bush's torture policy in 2002. I don't recall her using the power of her office to speak out or request an investigation into the Bush administration's illegal policy in the 5 years since. Not even a hint. She was sworn to secrecy? Actually, in this case, speaking out would make one a hero. She kept silent, and therefore, is complicit with our government's illegal policy of torture. But go ahead and continue to ignore every instinct that tells you this woman is a fucking, self-opportunistic phony. I did, until today. No more.

[Downtown Hound]

6. I agree

Pelosi has probably been the biggest political disappointment ever in my life. Even more than Bush, because I never had any hope for him. but I had high hopes for her, and she has trashed them over and over again.

They should all be tried for war crimes. I'm beginning to see now why Pelosi won't impeach Bush. Because she realizes that she could be next if he falls.

[Gregorian]

9. I watched a documentary on torture tonight.

It was on Linktv. And it was highly disturbing, with actual footage of some very disturbing events. But, and I am not in any way excusing the behavior of Congress, what I was not fully cognizant of was the degree to which we have condoned torture over our long history of aggressions. The School of the Americas teaches torture techniques. They teach how to puncture someone's eyes out. They taught the death squads in South America. We tortured in Vietnam. And when I talked with my dad about this tonight, he mentioned knowing someone who talked to him about how we tortured in World War Two. Oh, how we've tortured.

What I'm saying is nothing we all don't already know. But what I think Congress knows that we don't know, is that it's commonplace. I think this is all very fresh for us civilians. But I think Congress has known all along, just to what degree this kind of filthy, immoral, inhuman, illegal behavior has existed.

They knew. And they are saving their faces. Anyone who speaks out in Congress will have all of the other members of Congress spilling their beans for them. Exposing them. Or in other words, they are all complicit in this nightmare.

It's just another hunch that I have.

[druidity33]

226. perhaps

but it was never a matter of policy.

[Rosemary2205]

11. And we think Congress can be trusted to fund our healthcare?

Congress IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY. I can probably count on one hand the people in DC who will keep their word to the little people.

[Lars39]

12. And you shoot the idea down every chance you get.

[Javaman]

27. healthcare reform is nothing but crap being passed off as chocolate.

as long as congress and the presidential candidates take money from insurance companies and pharma corps, we will never ever have national healthcare.

[Bryan Buchan]

13. It is called the DCCC...

And the only way to remove those people is to vote for those dems who oppose their practices...l

Lets start with the blue dogs and hold them accountable...just wait until they approve the funding for the war with out an exit mandate for another time...start there and make some change....are you a wimp...."wah...wah...there they go again...i give up"

Be Change

[Tom Joad]

21. Pelosi has long advocated unconditional support for Israel, and human rights groups

write often of Israel's terrible human rights violations, including the use of torture.

[ClayZ]

25. It just keeps getting more shameful!

I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone.

[OzarkDem]

37. Dem leaders in Congress will sell us out on health care reform, too

In fact, they've done it already. That's why they're so irritated at Kucinich for campaigning on single payer. They like universal health care reform about as much as they like talk of impeaching Cheney & Bush.

Several months ago I was told the "conventional wisdom" on the Hill from Dems was "incrementalism".

They plan to throw out a few razzle dazzle, cheap ass proposals that cover very few - children and families (meaning if you kid is over 18, you're screwed).

The deal has already cut with the leading health care policy groups, who have also sold out, like Families USA.

Most of them think they can't push for universal coverage for another 10 years or so.

Sad to realize that, after all our work in 2006, we're going to have to replace many of these Dem bastards over the next several years.

[rodeodance]

118. yes, i fear they will also

[hfojvt]

41. What is this worldview of perfection?

We progressives are perfect. Any imperfection in anybody else must make them totally corrupt.

The true principles of the Democratic Party are perfect. But apparently no elected Democrat has ever perfectly lived up to them, so they are all totally worthless.

And we need to what? Be "done with them"? Not vote? Join a third party of perfection lead by Saint Ralph of Nader? or Saint Cindy of Sheehan?

I think it's a little bit more adult to not have a huge hissy fit whenever the world is shown to be imperfect. I can see that it's more fun to be harshly judgemental though.

[grasswire]

47. nice post

The lens of maturity is obvious.

[EFerrari]

48. "My government tortures people, my government is imperfect.

There must be something wrong with me."

I don't think so.

[hfojvt]

60. it's not wrong to complain or fight against injustices

but it seems wrong to me to trash everyone and the entire system. Might as well join the self-righteous dickheads at Counterpunch. I am just not sure what gets accomplished by tearing everything down and believing that every elected official is a self-serving a$$hole. That's the rhetoric/worldview of Reagan "I am from the government and I am here to help."

If we had a viable 3rd party, I doubt if that would be perfect either, and yet there seems to be such support for splinterism. "I am done with these worthless ones".

Then again, I am not sure why I typed this reply since I am not sure what you meant. :banghead:

[EFerrari]

64. I agree with you that being reactive, just tearing politicians down

isn't a solution. It gets us nowhere.

And, this particular government seems to be training us to accept abuse. At some point, not standing up to that is a mistake. That's all I meant.

[Javaman]

102. Okay, I gotcha now. :)

Cheers. :)

[Enrique]

113. Counterpunch are dickheads indeed

Check out their sliming of Paul Wellstone.

http://www.counterpunch.org/sperry0813.html

AFTER LAST MONTH'S column on Paul Wellstone's silence concerning the business scandals, I got a testy email from a Wellstone staffer, larded with press release attachments that demonstrated the senator's fierce and fearless leadership. Wellstone has spoken against corporate abuses on the Senate floor, I was informed, not once but twice-and, more impressive still, he spoke forcefully each time.

Naturally I felt mortified at my own hubris. Who was I to criticize Wellstone's leadership just because I hadn't heard a peep about it myself? Had I scoured the full menu of his press releases? Had I pored over member comments on the Senate floor? No. But in my own paltry way I did try. I looked at various news archives and Wellstone's own Senate website. Before its content was frozen by election rules round about early July, it contained no word about corporate accountability that I could find, not even one of the press releases-each surely more forceful than the last!-that are the sine qua non of his leadership. All I can say is that I'm sorry, Paul, and in the future I'll bear in mind that the mere fact of being invisible doesn't make you any less a leader.

Now, in mid-August, Wellstone's campaign website is screaming boardroom larceny front and center. Lovely. Better late than never, and better a little than nothing at all: That's the central refrain of Wellstone's Senate career and the only credible slogan on behalf of his re-election campaign. I'll still vote for him if I vote at all, but I won't venture out just to pull the lever for Paul. And in that I doubt I'm alone.

The other day I spoke with Bill Hillsman, the political ad consultant who played a vital role in electing Wellstone the first time. "I was thinking about some of the ads we just murdered Boschwitz with in '90," Hillsman smiled ruefully, "the print ads where we talked about his being in the Senate for 12 years and never getting anything done. And I thought to myself, good Lord, what would happen if someone did that same ad now with respect to Wellstone's record? It would probably be no better, maybe in some cases worse."

[Downtown Hound]

63. Now you're equating torture with being imperfect?

You just lost all credibility.

[hfojvt]

66. At least I don't smoke

See how "all or nothing thinking" works. I am not just wrong on this issue. I have lost ALL credibility.

What's a little torture between friends? If the Iraq war has killed 400,000 civilians, and if, before that, the sanctions under Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqis, and the war in Vietnam killed 2 million, are you gonna say that the torture of maybe 50 people is worse than that?

As far as credibility goes, I am not sure what that implies. I certainly do not expect to write something and have people say "hfojvt says it, I believe it". Heck if somebody reads what I write and provides more facts, or better logic, I might even have to (gasp) change my mind. Oh, the horror.

Unfortunately, a mere self-righteous attack on my credibility is highly unlikely to change my mind. I am guessing a lot of people are like that.

[magellan]

65. Who's asking for perfection?

Just doing the right thing and standing by it because it's right would be enough for me.

[spag68]

43. I have to add my two cents worth

Who else in the house is dirty? We know schumer is dirty, as this mulkasey creep is his recomendation!!! I've always thought there were others that should be saying stuff, but were hokding back, now we know the reason. All these I don't remembers was not informed is just a bunch of crap. Anyone who spent any time on tne street had the bs alert screaming in his or her head. Really, these guysknow everything about everything, and would not be satisfied until they did. Rudy knew for sure, remember whar his guys did to Abner Loiuma andd the nightstick affair. Sick bastards, this is america and we don,t torture. Look put them in a smal ri\oom with 24/7 barry manikow after a week or so they'le tell anything, just shut it diwn.Anyone envolved, shoud get off any committee,and go back to junior statisuntil they learn the rules,The vp and the pres should be first in line, then rove and the creep they let go.let them do some real jail time, no torture, just confinement for a couple days, Pis and punk as we used to call it< bread and water>. This is just too creepy. they deserve so much worse, but will get nothing. I advise sending bach all the plea money envelopes empty with a few words letting them know how disgusted we ar , and write impeachment on the envelope sonewhere. Stamp it to save them the money, but sent them a message,,let them know we are pissed.

[Javaman]

95. I've written pelosi before and have again with this issue

and like before I'm sure I will get the standard form letter in return.

[paulk]

67. like a poster upthread said - "hook, line , and sinker"

you've swallowed it all...


-------------


that anarchy avatar of yours is like, rilly cool, man. I had one of those on my notebook back when I was in 6th grade, too.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

133. Yeah it is an anachary symbol because like a good american, I question everything

and take nothing at face value.

[paulk]

159. you took the WaPo article at face value...

;-)

[Javaman]

169. Perhaps that is my real crime. nt

[L. Coyote]

72. What CRAP! "dems are not dems at all"

Where were you when Robert Kennedy was murdered?
Where were you when John Kennedy was assasinated?

You, my friend, are no Dem.

You have no clue about what a Dem is, what it means,
what a rich political history it represents.

The only "wild ride of bullshit" is yours.
Your falling for bullshit does not diminish Dems, not a single one.

You, my friend, are no Dem.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lochloosa]

78. BULLSHIT! AS A MEMBER OF THE GANG OF EIGHT

She COULD NOT TELL!

She would have been prosecuted for releasing any information.

The question should be "WHY IS THIS INFORMATION BEING RELEASED AND WHO IS RELEASING IT"

By releasing what was told to the Gang of Eight, they can spin it any way they want.

[kentuck]

86. The Gang of Eight is exactly that.

A "Gang".

[Javaman]

89. fine whatever, as long she keeps silient on violations of the

geneva conventions, that's okay right?

This is what cracks me up, we have forgotten what descent is in this nation.

silence is as good as approval. She could have always said no, in these "private sessions" but apparently didn't.

Sorry, your argument doesn't carry.

[Lochloosa]

98. You don't understand what I'm saying.

She cannot, by law, reveal what was shown her nor can she respond to these charges. Even now.

The attention should be on whomever released the information that she/the gang of eight was even briefed on this.

No one is supposed to know.

[Javaman]

101. So no one is supposed to know that she was silent on the issue.

huh, so even though the real dems have found out how our "leaders voted" we should totally ignore that and solely go after the leaker?

Well, that's just the breaks, now isn't it?

Sure, go after the leaker, in the mean time, it doesn't allay any of my anger which is now aimed at our do nothing enabler leader.

So what is at issue here really? the fact that someone blabbed? or that our party's leader is revealed as an almost dem?

Sorry, we have slid so far down the rabbit hole that the concept of trying to find these leaker's is almost now beside the point.

The great oz has been revealed and to me, that is much more important at this juncture then who pulled the curtain.

[lazer47]

110. Bullshit,,,you cannot classifiy or make secret,,crimes within the Gov.

[KoKo]

238. It was her DUTY to reveal what she knew. Secrecy is what BushCo does...and Dems

know his lies need to be called out. If Pelosi and the other 7 of the GANG can't see what Bush Criminals have done to America then why are they Democrats? They just as well hang their hats and scarfs with the Repugs.

Repugs leak all the time. They put out info to the WaPo and NYT's all the time. It's what POliticians DO. When do we see anything that's favorable to Dems leaked there. You might say both papers are now RW Corporate Whore Rags...but shouldn't they be worried about Dems taking control in '08 and reversing the Telecom Act which gave certain folks a Media MOnopoly?

WHY IS IT that MSWHORE MEDIA isn't WORRIED AT ALL ABOUT DEM TAKE OVER in '08? Because THEY KNOW...DEMS WERE IN ON IT. At least the Dems who had Power and Seniority on Committees.

Media isn't afraid...they know both parties are complicit with Bush...otherwise we wouldn't have the worst lockdown on Dem Coverage EVER. We thought it would be different with Dems in Control. There's less to watch in real news on the Cables and Networks than ever since Dems took Control. That says something...and it isn't good for us out here.

[IsItJustMe]

87. Don't think we know enough yet about the facts of the matter to come to any intelligent conclusions.

But I don't know why Pelosi would be blamed for the Residents torture programs. Seems like mis-direction to me.

Don't take your eye off the ball.

[peacetalksforall]

88. The closer Dems get to the center the easier it is for them to cross over.

We have been deceived by certain Dem Leaders in a spectrum of ways.

The problem is -

secrets that involve destruction
secrets carried out as acts detrimental to humans and acknowledged as such througout history
secrets on the breaking of the law

hypocrisy - teaching children that their vote counts and that they are entitled to trial by jury and that Amemrica's military are there to defend our country (not invade and plunder others) and that it is honorable to defend for reality based reasons, not for profit for a few.

deception of intention for running for office
riding on the coattails of Democratic ideals, but not legislating them, but legislating for coporations in place of citizens who pay for it all

not abiding by the constitution/bill of rights/balance of power and joining those who are rewriting them - Federalist Society, reverends, lobbyists for barons/corporations

That is what we don't want in our leaders, but this is what too many of them are giving us.

Some are deceivers and the good ones are hard to hear because of scheming to quiet and distance them.

[GreenArrow]

90. "who else in congress knew"?

The Senate Intelligence Committee might be a good place to look.

[salib]

97. Time to redouble our efforts to Take Back Our Party

And Our Country!

Get involved, guys! Support a campaign for the primaries. Then support the winner in the general elections.

If we are Dems then we need to be a part of the action.

Let's go!

[Greyskye]

99. Waterboarding "description"

The "description" of waterboarding in the linked article is pretty pathetic. Of course, 3 or 4 years ago, I would have taken it at face value. Events of the past few years, however, have eliminated my ignorance on the subject.

This is how the linked article in the OP describes waterboarding:

In general, the technique involves strapping a prisoner to a board or other flat surface, and then raising his feet above the level of his head. A cloth is then placed over the subject's mouth and nose, and water is poured over his face to make the prisoner believe he is drowning.

What this bland description leaves out, is that the prisoners nose is obstructed to keep him from breathing though his nose. The "cloth placed over the subject's mouth and nose" is in reality forced into the subjects mouth, which allows water to enter, but the prisoner is unable to force it back out again. So what happens? The subject can only hold his breath for so long. When his body forces him to take a breath, the water forced into his mouth is now drawn into his lungs. As anyone who has had water in their lungs can tell you, this is a horribly painful experience in itself. The prisoner doesn't just believe he is drowning - he is drowning. You can die from this practice, which is why medical personnel are required to be present when this torture is being conducted.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, I submit that it is possible that Congress-critters briefed on this were given the 'watered-down' version of this torture method. Were, in effect, given the impression that the only drowning was 'simulated' drowning, that couldn't really hurt anyone. :sarcasm:

I'm absolutely not for giving anyone an automatic free pass on this issue. But I feel that the issue is important enough to float the possibility. After all, as Kerry has stated many times (and been lambasted by the right wing for the same), life is not black and white, it is many nuanced shades of grey.

[fascisthunter]

100. Well Said and To The Point! (nt)

[slackmaster]

112. Nancy Pelosi cares only about keeping Nancy Pelosi in power

Any alert Californian could have told you that years ago.

Some of us tried, but most in our party didn't listen.

She's a carpetbagger from Maryland. She doesn't even have a real permanent residence in the district she represents.

[Perry Logan]

116. We've all been betrayed. Let us join hands and jump into the river.

[Javaman]

139. Nice solution.

it's amazing that once I call into question pelosi's integrity, it's like I'm saying she's satan.

Damn it, folks, if we don't question our leaders, regardless who they are, we are nothing better then the repukes.

talk about reactionaries. My post has gotten painted as some divide and conquer bullshit when all I stated is: I can no longer trust someone that talks out of both sides of her face.

If you all who have criticized me are perfectly okay with pelosi staying silent on water-boarding then outing someone who was against it, fine, knock yourselves out. I can at least sleep at night knowing I wasn't going to further enable someone who apparently allowed this practice to go on all the while puffing up on the hill about how awful it is.

if she had spoken up against it when it first came out, I would have much more respect than someone that loves to play it safe.

Has Feingold, Kucinich and the other objectors played it safe? no, so why the free fucking ride for good old nancy? because she's leader of the house? that's more of a reason to hold her feet to the fire.

[defendandprotect]

224. I totally support what you did with this thread --- and I think those objecting are few -- ???

and based on a premise of this being RW propaganda ---
or helping the GOP --- ????

What is Pelosi's side of the story --- is she telling us???

[rodeodance]

117. at this point we ONLY have the cia claim--no official rebuttal as to what this

briefing all entailed.

yes, pelosi put out a brief statement--but we need details. until withhold judgement

[wiggs]

207. That is right...and the administration did the same thing with another

committee...on NSA spying I think. They represented that a bipartisan group had been notified and had no problems with it. Then we find out that there was precious little information shared and the participants had questions that were never answered. Sounds much like this same situation.

[ooglymoogly]

119. Anyone and I mean anyone who voted to allow this ignorant fool

the unilateral and unbridled power to declare war and continues to support it with funds lacks even the remotest tatter of judgment. They are either stupid rubes or in on the kill, neither of which should be countenanced in any seat of government. We desperately need honest smart politicians and we need to quickly figure out how to tell the difference. kr

[The Stranger]

120. Every fucking one of them should be arrested for being an accomplice after the fact.

They need to be tried and, if convicted, imprisoned.

The ones actually doing the torturing should be given far, far worse.

[L. Coyote]

122. TOTAL PROPAGANDA AND BULLSHIT. You wish you knew Jack (Kennedy)

"So now we know that pelosi ...."

Hey Javaman, it's Pelosi, with a capitalization. They will get to that any grade soon, but I thought you could use the heads up.

Here are a few other hints:

Your statement "her silence on the water-boarding issue" infers that you know everything she ever said. That makes you a liar.

Your statement "these dems are a hell of a lot worse than any child beater" indicates you may want to see a therapist.

Your statement " abu garib!! ... They gave the fucking green light to the bullshit that went down there!!" is simply BULLSHIT and you know it.

Your statement " abu garib now can be rightly hung around their necks as well." is simply BULLSHIT and you know it.

Your statement " these, dems are not dems at all. They are enabling mother fuckers." is simply BULLSHIT and you know it.

Your statement " They have strayed so far from what it means to be a Democrat, it's an insult to the party and to us" indicates you are anything but a Dem. You do not decide what Dems are, we Dems do, those of us who worked to elect Robert Kennedy, to impeach Nixon, to end the Vietnam War, and you have no clue about the Democratic Party, who we are, and what we represent. It certainly isn't ranting, foul-mouth, insulting children who think they can rewrite history to match Bush's lies.

[Javaman]

158. So if I'm so wrong please provide me with proof to the contrary?

I'm big enough to admit when I am wrong, however I will not do it purely on opinion and supposition.

[grasswire]

213. standing ovation

Wow. A fine post.

[stlsaxman]

229. Hear Hear!!! n/t

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[mzmolly]

123. Pelosi was subject to "stict rules of secrecy" according to the WA PO

article. They were legally required to stay mum. I have issues with Pelosi, but suggesting that because she was told about waterboarding she should have arrested Bush on the spot is a bit over the top eh?

[Usrename]

141. So, what's stopping her now?

Suggesting that she can't do anything about it now is a bit over the top eh?

[mzmolly]

242. Where did I suggest such a thing, eh?

What would you like her to do today?

[Usrename]

245. Impeach.

Is there any other course?

[mzmolly]

253. I want them both impeached

yesterday.

[KoKo]

237. Rockefeller on the Sunday Pundit shows said "I Can't talk about any of it because

..we are sworn to secrecy." It didn't come off as believable. Sorry...it didn't.

[mzmolly]

241. Believable to whom?

I would bet that's a matter of opinion KoKo. I believed Rockefeller personally.

[groovedaddy]

124. Does this mean that KKKarl Rove was right and the war in Iraq

is Congress's fault?

[Javaman]

160. Hmmm, I don't know where the hell you pulled that from?

look up the term enabler.

[Buzz Clik]

128. Jesus effin' Cristo. Time to call for the rubber truck.

I tried responding to several of the more ridiculous posts on this thread, but it's like trying to find the dumbest dumbshit in Freepville.

Oh, and congrats on buying into the diversion. Karl Rove may be gone, but his legacy remains.

[L. Coyote]

129. Time to admit what percentage of posters are actually freeper trolling worms

All you have to do is go to that other site obsessed with this one
and read about it there. The openly discuss how they infiltrate here.

The rules do not allow directly calling someone a troll, but we can certainly face the facts.
I sure would prefer to be able to call a damn troll a damn troll, not that this OP is one, of course.

I do enjoy the opportunity to interact with trolls. They are useful indicators of the spin agenda and reveal a lot more than they realize. It is the basic Hamlet's 'They protesteth too much' Principle. They give the talking points away, they reveal which opposites are true. Bless the stupid little piggies for that. Nonetheless, I sure would like to be able to say things like, "You, sir, are no friend of Jack Kennedy, you, sir, are a worm and a troll."

[Buzz Clik]

137. The extreme reactions from left and right sometimes collide on the far side of the universe.

I don't believe that Javaman is a Freeper or a troll. He's simply frustrated, and he's focusing his rage on someone upon whom he had heaped unreal expectations. Now, she's the object of his rage.

It happens.

[Javaman]

149. Thank you but I can defend myself.

It's unreal for a person not to agree to torture?

Sorry, doesn't work for me.

And I find it really amusing that because someone on this site (myself) questions the motives of our dem leaders to be accused of being a freep.

Before you all start getting out your torches and pitchforks I suggest that you browse my journal.

This is not the first time I have question our wonderful leaders, nor will it be the last.

It appears as if a vast majority on this site have forgotten that a major part of living in a democracy is questioning ones leaders.

I will hold this mother fucker to task each and every time them tread on my rights and besmirch the constitution.

Yes, I am a life long dem, bravo for me, but damn it, I'm an American first and foremost.

And if questioning our leaders brands me in the eyes of those people who don't wish to "rock the boat", that's just tough shit.

I aim with my questions to make us all think and take nothing, NOTHING for granted like so many of our fellow Americans have for lo these past 7 years.

I will always question authority, I will always make them feel uncomfortable, I will always make them question their conscious, I will always judge their integrity, I will always ask the questions that make them squirm, because if this not done on a daily basis, if this ceases, our nation, our lives, our rights are not worth the linen that the constitution is written upon.

So accuse me of what you want, I will not give up as long there is a breath in my lungs, a thought in my mind and a beat in my heart.

Always question.

[Buzz Clik]

150. Are you running out of breath yet?

I sure as shit wasn't defending you.

Another fucking tirade at DU.

[Javaman]

154. Sounds like you were to me...

"I don't believe that Javaman is a Freeper or a troll".

[Buzz Clik]

157. LOL! So, your intent is simply to argue about everything?

Take my word for it, I was not defending you. Trust me, okay?

[Javaman]

164. sigh...

Look, I appreciate you coming to my defense, but honestly I don't require it.

I don't have to prove myself to anyone on this board about my heel clicking faith the the Democratic party.

I just question what our leaders say and apparently that is just too much for some people on this board to handle.

I am and never will be a person that takes the parties stance or those of the leaders word on faith.

Time and time again, we all have been burned and frankly, I'm done with it.

if the simple fact that we can't agree that she gave a pass on water-boarding is working people up into a lather, it shows some serious fault lines in our party that have been there way long before I wrote my OP.

My job like any thinking American citizen is to question and open peoples eyes to reality.

if this story proves to be false, I will gladly issue a site wide apology, but until someone is to provide me with information to the contrary, I stand by what I wrote.

[grasswire]

235. so with all this noble "questioning" that you claim to do.. .

....why is it that you trustingly accept an unsourced story in a news outlet that is a known purveyor of propaganda and lies planted to hurt Dems?

Explain.

[Javaman]

251. Good god.

So we are to not believe anything we read now. That the WP is a complete hack news paper.

Until someone shows me contrary proof, I stand by what I believe.

boot clicking dems are as bad as the freeps.

[magellan]

145. Some facts are more easily faced than others, it seems

All well and good for you to have your suspicions, which are no doubt correct, about certain posters here, but when it comes to engaging that logic as regards this matter with Pelosi you're happy to defend her no matter what and equally happy to accuse those who don't share your blissfully blinkered state of being trolls.

What a model of democratic values. Duly noted.

[Buzz Clik]

182. "Duly noted." What exactly are you going to do with this "notation"? Put in my file?

:eyes:

[magellan]

209. Not likely, since I wasn't TALKING to you. n/t

[Javaman]

152. it's easy for you to cast stones when you are blocked...

well you are unblocked and you know what? call me a freep to my face (metaphorically).

[Javaman]

134. right.

so me questioning her motives is working to divide the party huh?

make sure you click your heels next time you post.

[Buzz Clik]

136. Questioning her motives, my butt. You've condemned her and accused her of treason.

Good gawd.

[L. Coyote]

140. And, if your parents are abusive, talk to the authorities. Misdirected anger is wrong.

[Javaman]

142. I have said nothing of treason, please don't put words in my mouth.

I have condemned her for being a hypocrite and a total bullshit artist.

All the bullshit she threw about, "keeping the powder dry and draining the swamp", just goes to show, she was doing everything to play to the base but did nothing to back up her words.

And now they are going to give a green light to the continuation of the war. what happened to, "we won't fund until moron* signs a bill to rotate the troops out"?

what of that?

her silence lead directly to illegal renditions of foreigners held by the US and a suspension their geneva convention rights.

So you tell me, why can't I question her motives? Why can't I call her out on her bullshit?

we live in times were guts and integrity are in very short supply. However, those same guts and integrity should at least be in ample supply by the democratic leader of the house. But they are not.

[Buzz Clik]

146. Didn't accuse her of treason? I guess you just described it without using the word. My bad.

You can say basically what you want on this board. Just don't expect a unanimous agreement with you -- I very strongly and vehemently disagree with you. More to the point, I think you're being played.

[Javaman]

156. Then provide proof of the contrary. nt

[Buzz Clik]

184. Provide proof that she didn't commit treason? Or that she isn't guilty of "bullshit"?

She's plenty guilty of bullshit -- she's a politician. It doesn't warrant this level of hysteria.

[Javaman]

189. Oh good god. give it a rest.

I never said anything about treason, you seem to be the one that loves to keep bringing it up.

if this story is bullshit and so many people are so obviously pissed off about it, a simple statement to the contrary would sufice.

I have stayed very consistant with my outrage, you on the other hand really enjoy going from 0 to 60 quite a bit.

put the mouse down and slowly step away from the keyboard.

[progressoid]

173. ...

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[scytherius]

130. We must let her know

We must call her office, mail her office, email her office . . . do all we can to let her know our outrage. just bitching among ourselves does nothing.

[notanotherday]

131. Pelosi " I was too stupid to know water boarding was torture' duh.. duh..

And still too stupid to be in her house leader.. PLEASE STAND DOWN! duh!

[ProSense]

132. The little gem is

BS

Delve into the mind of the MSM.

[Javaman]

144. "acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time." nt

[ProSense]

172. What does that mean?

The article mentions that Pelosi was briefed then implies that it was on waterboarding.

From Marty Lederman:

The pattern is by now very familiar. Whenever the Administration begins to do something of dubious legality, it:

1. sends to Congress messengers who the Intel committees trust -- solemn, serious, professionals, often uniformed military officers

2. to inform a very select, small number of legislators of the conduct -- legislators who have developed close and trusted relationships with the intel officials briefing them and who are, quite understandably, loathe to undermine such relationships, which do, after all, facilitate trust, access, and oversight itself

3. and to provide such briefings after the conduct has commenced

4. in a highly classified setting

5. putting the conduct in its best possible light -- in particular, making sure to insist that it has prevented terrorist attacks

6. while assuring the legislators that it has been vetted by the lawyers and is legal

7. without showing the legislators the legal analysis supporting the conduct

8. without disclosing the legal arguments that cut the other way

9. without informing the legislators of any policy-based or legal dissent within the executive branch

10. while warning the legislators that they may not legally breathe a word of it to anyone -- certainly not to staff, or their fellow legislators, nor to experts outside Congress who might be able to better assess the legality and efficacy of the conduct

11. and while insisting that the legislators cannot second-guess the need for classification and secrecy, even in cases -- such as with respect to OLC opinions concerning what techniques are lawful and which are not, and with respect to conduct that has been revealed to the enemy already -- where there is no legitimate justification for the classification.

The reaction from the Intel Commmittees is, alas, predictable: Muted, furtive and internal (i.e., entirely ineffective) protest, at best. More often than not, acquiescence and encouragement.

(emphasis added)

Why anyone would think that this administration gave Congress a full, unmanipulated briefing on anything is beyond me. If they exclude information or present cherry-picked information it's not a full briefing. Just look at the Mukasey hearing, which is why Feingold wrote this, and McConnell's op-ed on Bush's FISA bill, and Dodd's response.


The only way to get to the bottom of this is to investigate Bush.

[Javaman]

174. Here's the full quote...

Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.

The bottom line is this: she gave the green light with her silence to "interigation methods" without knowing what the full nature of the methods were going to be used.

to me, that is at the core of the issue here.

[EFerrari]

177. How disgusting is that.

Enhanced interrogation methods, my bald headed granny.

What more proof do we need that our representatives have one standard for themselves and another for the rest of humanity -- including us?

:puke:

[ProSense]

178. I read it, that's why I wrote in the thread linked to that it's BS! n/t

[Javaman]

180. And you know that how? please provide me with

the "truth" and I will gladly apologize.

[Individualist]

147. The rot within is DLC

They want to turn the party into a submissive branch of the republican party and obviously have succeeded in doing so.

[madrchsod]

153. there are a lot of people here at du who think this article

is right wing spin to cover the whitehouse. according to jane harmon today there is`t a shred of evidence yet that anyone did what this article is saying about the democrats. she also stated anyone involved in this was sworn to secrecy or was not in the loop.she even has to request that her letter to the cia be de-classified. i am really surprised ..well not really.. that people would jump to any conclusion about fellow democrat without finding out -who said what and about who? of course no one was mentioned just "someone said". oh well to each their own.

[Javaman]

155. If true, I will be the first to apologize, but until that point..

and until some sort of statement is made. I hold no support for pelosi.

[madrchsod]

165. i too am wondering where her statement is

and after supporting her she has certainly disappointed me in the last month or so. as soon as this broke here friday night it apparent that the story was planted. jane harmon laid it out this afternoon on big ed`s show and since she is a lawyer she recognizes that she has to wait for the facts to proceed. if there is illegality ,well there is, she has to be careful about what she has to say and it would be best for any democrat in the house and senate to do the same. i bet they are fuming as we are over the blatant disregard for the rule of law..that`s why we elect them to make sure no one is above the law and if they don`t that`s we have the right to scream at them... :thumbsup:

[Javaman]

170. Thanks for the support. :) nt

[Mrspeeker]

163. Nothing has changed

Just titles, The ruling class still maintains the power and provides us with so called two sides to chose from, now it is more than evident that those two sides are the same as we find the true number of the beast..and it is a human number.

[Javaman]

166. Eloquently put. :) nt

[L. Coyote]

179. Word too big?

That was anything but "eloquent" and surely quite the opposite.

[Javaman]

183. How old are you? I forgot to use spell check, good lord.

You may now prance around feeling like you got the upper hand, you showed me, I'm I all embarrassed.

:eyes:

[autorank]

168. K*R You ask: "who else in congress knew about this water-boarding?? "

That's a great question. Thanks for including it. Who else knew, probably quite a few.

Even though I find her bill HR 1955 extremely disturbing, my estimation of Harman went up a
few notches. She did the right thing and what was her reward?

I'll bet a lot of members knew about this. People talk and who takes seriously the restriction
on that, if they've even been in a large organization.

We can't prove how many knew but ask yourself this question:

How many members knew that the WMD claims were bogus before the Iraq War Resolution vote?

All of them, every single one. Why, because the aggregation of 20 or so public links was presented
here prior to the war resolution, right here on DU. They all knew but told themselves, hey we're
covered because it's not a call for war even though they had to suspect that these tyrants would use
the resolution.

Excellent post!

[Javaman]

171. Thanks :) nt

[L. Coyote]

185. Do not delude yourself into thinking anyone in Congress reads DU.

A few DUers read anything posted, plus a few researchers if you have good keywords.
It is hilarious to think Congress members check DU for facts before voting :rofl:
Threads like this being why they wouldn't want anyone to even think they might have!!

[Buzz Clik]

186. I have it on good authority that most Dems in Congress read the DUzy Awards faithfully.

They are all confident that DU is a reliable source of comic relief.

[Javaman]

188. Nice to know they take us, the frustrated few, so seriously.

kind of puts the dot on my point.

[Javaman]

187. Why should it matter whether or not congress people read this site?

isn't supposed to be a clearing house for people to express themselves?

[madrchsod]

194. what`s why they hire a staff

to keep them up to date on what is going on in the media and all it`s forms

[debunkthelies]

175. welcome to the light

Now we see the rotting corpse of all government, maggot filled corruption of the body politic. The stench is pervasive and contageous, there's only one thing left to do....WELCOME TO THE REVOLUTION OF WE THE PEOPLE. We did it before and we CAN do it again.

[MaryRN]

195. Well done, Javaman. You can watch my back anytime.

[Javaman]

197. Thanks. :) nt

[datavg]

201. But Even...

...Larry O'Donnell says the left has nowhere to go. You know it and I know it.

The country isn't progressive. This is not the United States of Northern California or Massachusetts.

Having Pelosi and Hoyer and Reid in power proves that.

[Javaman]

203. Heck, I know that...

but it would be nice now and then for them to display their spines.

I'm just tired of getting so full of hope over something that needs to be done to right the course moron* has taken us off of, only to be kicked square in the family jewels by our Dem leaders caving.

I just can't do it anymore.

I remember once upon a time a buddy of mine had a great quote about Cubs fans, "Cubs fans are 90% scar tissue". I'm beginning to feel that way.

[datavg]

217. Sorry...

...but the TiVo self deleted that interview with Greenspan about his book.

I'll keep after it and see if I can't find something on the C-SPAN site. I might even call them.

I'll let you know.

[orleans]

205. now do we know why impeachment was off the fucking table? n/t

[ProSense]

208. Here's a

question.

[Javaman]

256. Never asked her to step down...

I have asked for a statement to the contrary and I also wrote her a nice letter to that point. so far no reply.

[wiggs]

210. Regardless of whether or not the article represents the truth, what is clear is

that administration abuses across the board, including torture, have not been pursued with the vigor, honesty, and urgency commensurate with the misdeeds. There should be no question about that by now, at least on DU. Both as the minority and as the majority, dem leaders could have done a LOT more.

It is indeed a "wild ride of bullshit," in which one faction of the government is protecting another faction...they are two different groups, but they are all under the same corporate and imperialistic umbrella...they both work for the same company. Asking the dem leaders to pull down the curtain and expose horrendous government outrages would in a sense be like asking them to point the gun at themselves. Or like the accounting department of a giant corporation blowing the whistle on management and everyone in the company ends up working for a rogue company with bad reputation. Doesn't happen.

Real oversight would upset the apple cart too much for entrenched power. Won't happen.

One more thing...almost certainly, waterboarding isn't the worst we've done...but the spinmeisters recognize it to be a gray area that is debatable. The issue goes way beyond waterboarding but the press and dems and WH have allowed the discussion to rise and fall with waterboarding....don't we know that dozens of detainees died in Abu Ghraib (34 or something like that)? They certainly didn't die from waterboarding.

[Javaman]

252. Well said. nt

[Kurovski]

211. K&R. (nt)

[EV_Ares]

212. I am so pissed, K&R this: Bad enough you get lied to & shafted by

a republican but by someone you had high hopes for and that cared about her supporters.

[roxnev]

216. If it wasn't a Republican Rag

then you could believe it.

[ChiciB1]

219. Hey, Don't Count Me IN With This Bunch & I Don't Think I'm Even A Progressive!

I'm a Liberal and found the fact that so many RAN from this label has been very telling to me!

When we started seeing so many DLCer's around I felt in my gut things were not going well. Since 2006 my eyes have opened even more! I already made my decision for after this election! I'm working for the candidate of my choice and if he doesn't become the nominee, I suppose I'll be keeping a little more of my money in my pocketbook.

The Democratic turn to the Middle or even further Right has been distressing to me for a very very long time. When a person such as Ned Lamont can be PUSHED out of a race because the OTHER Do-
Do decided HE was going to be re-elected come hell or high water, AND when many of OUR own elected officials backed this move, a clear sign was sent. And one of those who helped Mr. Lie get re-elected are some VERY influential people from NEW YORK!! New York, a place that was always known as a Liberal state, with more Democrats to go around that most!

When those such as McGovern & RFK, Jr. and some other very noteworthy names seem to gone to the middle, then for me I guess I've been "neutered" to a great extent!

I had wanted to stay active because I have been for so long, but even IF this story isn't true, there's so much more that is, and the Democratic Party LEFT me... and I have No Where To Go!

[EstimatedProphet]

221. Yeah, now we know!

Just like we KNOW that Pelosi was one of the war planners for the Invasion of Iraq. And, we KNOW that she also helped Bush/Cheney plan 9/11. And we KNOW she wrote the justification for torture memo, and she was instrumental in all the wiretapping.

[IsItJustMe]

222. Yeah, lets get rid of her and put us a Repuke in there.,

Do I need a sarcasm icon.

[MaryRN]

223. Ya, How about Lieberman?

:yoiks:

[hisownpetard]

225. From the day Pelosi made her unilateral declaration that 'Impeachment is off the table," I've been

wondering what it is that Bush has on her. Maybe this is it.
Maybe she knew that she's been complicit and that the Democratic party would not embrace
her silence or lack of action.
She should be ashamed of herself.
Fat chance, huh?

[Generator]

228. You know I find DU entertaining

Partly because*sigh* I've passed my rage phase. Oh I'm still angry, I just no longer expect anything from these weasels. And I do mean anything. I was at this outrage stage about the habeas corpus thing-what-a year ago or more-and America and the Dems pretty much died right there and then. I have been finding some peace and I wish that to you as well.

The last thing I will ever do is vote for anyone that betrayed me again.

I really find nothing shocking anymore either-from either side. After you have pretty much figured out you are collateral damage such as Iraq or 9/11 to them-well, all bets are off. They long ago passed the stage where they showed they actually give a shit about human life. If they don't give a shit about human life, well I don't give much of a shit about them. Watching the blinders come off here is always fun, and watching the rivers of denial.

[rockybelt]

234. Who are the

U.S. Officials that were present in the room?

Who has the tape that they buried for purposes of self preservation? You know that all of these people are paranoid and they MUST have squirreled away a tape or two.

[ProSense]

239. Video

Countdown: Tortured Justice

Note where he says "The fact that Democrats may have known about this since 2002 is a shocking revelation."


May, not definitely, but may, and definitely based on WaPo.