Americans will NEVER have Universal Health Care...Here's why....

[glarius]

While watching the progression of the American Presidential election, I have become more and more convinced that the American public will never accept the concept of Universal health care. The reason why is because they are constantly being frightened, by politicians of all parties, into believing that this would mean something almost akin to communism. I keep hearing the scary words....government controlled...can't choose your own doctor...government chooses hospitals... etc., etc.
When your politicians talk of health care for everyone, they talk of plans that everyone can buy into. This is NOT the same thing as our (Canadian) system or those in European democracies. In our system, our taxes pay for our health care. The government DOES NOT CONTROL IT, OR CHOOSE OUR DOCTORS OR HOSPITALS. WHAT THEY DO IS PAY THE BILLS! We go to doctors of our own choosing, have operations and treatments in hospitals....and never receive a bill. No one has to use their life savings or take out second mortgages.
Even the Democratic party seems afraid of being accused of promoting socialism if they advocate Universal health care as we know it.
Until the fear-mongering stops, I don't believe you will ever have Universal Health Care.
And that's so sad. You good people deserve what the rest of the civilized democracies are getting!
P.S...The latest poll I heard of said 93% of Canadians want to keep our system.
P.S.Again...This is a big country and every once in a while, someone, for some reason, will fall through the cracks....But overall...we are very satisfied with our health care.

[mike_c]

1. bingo-- kicked, recommended, and lovingly endorsed!

You've nailed the matter directly-- politicians use fear to serve their corporate masters, whose profits must never be put into jeopardy.

[Demeter]

62. It's Actually Uglier Than That

You forgot the racism. What good is a program that helps Joe SixPack if Those People also benefit?

Or even, god forbid, foreigners, tourist comes down with appendicitis, or an undocumented worker?

Ay carumba!

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Never? Not sure about that. But maybe not gonna happen in my lifetime.

[Flabbergasted]

3. I disagree. There will be a second "new deal" president.

But it will be after a major collapse.

[Jackpine Radical]

I keep having thoughts along those lines.

However, what is called for is an absolute spiritual transformation in America, complete with the rise of a very different value system from the idiot-box ethic currently so prevalent in our alleged "civilization."

[Flabbergasted]

20. Alot of people in America are ignorant of what socialism is...

America is a rightwing oriented socialist government and the first ever of its kind. We've just fallen behind in our arrogance.

It would seem obvious our current healthcare system is counterproductive and that keeping our citizens healthy spreads across an entire nation and supports everyone. This is a universal truth and always has been but we've created socialism into being a bad thing. Of course it's not. It's the most obvious stable governmental system on the planet. You know all this of couse.

[eridani]

30. I think that Taiwan and South Korea have been right wing socialist

Only they had their capitalist classes under better control for a little while. The Kuomintang was originally Marxist-Leninist, but it switched to being capitalist-Leninist. I think that Taiwan even now has six year plans.

[debbierlus]

35. I second that - people are pretty microscopic looking at these issues

The collaspe will push the change.

Crisis is often the only thing that will create change.

[FatDave]

56. I'm afraid your right

And I'm afraid that collapse is imminent.

[supernova]

4. Thank you for your support!

/Bartles & James Commercial





I agree w/ the parties as they exist now, it won't come to pass. BUT, as with the institution of SS in the late 40s, it's gonna take a sea change of thought.

Hey, it could happen.

[Gormy Cuss]

5. Glarius, I'm afraid that you're right.

We don't need no socialistic plot health care plan like the commies in Canada. Everyone here has a friend who has a friend who has a second-cousin with a negative anecdote about Canada's system.

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Well--some of us are pretty much aware of the situation.

Too many aren't aware, and are susceptible to that old "socialized medicine" canard. In fact, as I understand the different varieties of universal health care in the rest of the world, most or all actually provide an open choice of providers as well as paying for any appropriate procedure or medication, unlike the stupid, profit-driven American system that limits access to providers (they have to be authorized by your plan) and seeks to refuse all kinds of services by second-guessing their medical necessity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. My Norwegian cousin said that when she moved to a new town a couple of years ago

she just went to the city hall, got a list of local doctors, and picked one.

[slackmaster]

7. What happens when a bill is submitted for a procedure that is not covered?

I'm curious, and it does pertain to another thread.

In general, how are disputes handled - Procedures that may not be recognized as eligible for a person's particular medical situation, haggling over payment amounts, etc.?

[Evoman]

9. I'm not aware of any procedures, other than cosmetic ones, that aren't covered.

As far as I know, you get the best procedure for your ailment...not the cheapest, but the one that has the greatest chance of improving your health.

[slackmaster]

13. Offical Canada Health Care Web site agrees cosmetic procedures not covered

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/2002/2002_ca...

It appears that any payment disputes come down to the province or territory vs. the federal government. So patients are not liable.

It also puts provinces and territorities in the position of policing care providers, by imposing federal payment penalties for overbilling.

[glarius]

10. Sorry, but I've never heard of any such situation. n/t

[slackmaster]

15. Our own Medicare system has plenty of conflict situations

As I posted in another thread, Medicare stopped authorizing payments for a form of an inhaled anti-asthma drug that works well for my mother. They instead will pay for a cheaper version that is less effective in many people.

Cost control has to be built into the system somehow.

[Mike03]

8. Frightening but thoughtful post.

All I can say is that I pray to god you are wrong.

[Bjorn Against]

11. Actually polls here show the vast majority of the public supports Universal Health Care...

The only reason you hear so much scare mongering is the people with the megaphones take a lot of money from the "health care industry". The politicians get huge campaign contributions from the lobbyists and our television "news" networks take lots of advertising dollars from them and they are not about to bite the hand that feeds them.

It is not the people who are preventing us from getting universal health care, it is the moneyed interests.

[loyalsister]

21. until.......

the near future when they can no longer be supported by businesses. It's falling apart. Businessees are pulling insurance the only choice insurance has to get paid is via the gov't.
Check out the Kaiser web site.

Businesses are getting on board because they don't want to buy it anymore.

Governors would love to not have to put so much of their state revenue into it.

If this is pushed from the right directions it can happen.

It's a serious problem that is affecting moneyed interests- hospitals who are requiring government bailouts.
Practical politics will accomplish this goal.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Universal health care would be one of the best things that could happen to small business.

However, the big guys got them all brainwashed, so most of them fight tooth and nail against it. Meanwhile, the lack of adequate health care for small-business employees has been a traditional tool used by big business to stifle startup competition. Only now, at last, with health care costs rising so dramatically, are the big businesses starting to "see the light." And even now, for the most part, only those giant corporations, like the auto companies, that have little to fear from small-business competition.

[NewJeffCT]

58. There are plenty of big businesses that would love universal health care

The head of GM and the head of United Technologies (parent company of Otis Elevator, Carrier, Sikorsky, and others) went to Canada to lobby the Canadian government to strengthen their universal healthcare system.

You think companies like that (and Ford, GE, Chrysler) wouldn't like healthcare expenses off their books?

The problem is that it is a major issue to big pharmaceutical & health insurance companies and they put a tremendous amount of money and effort towards promoting the for-profit system. Until a GM starts exerting equal pressure on Congress in favor of universal healthcare, it won't happen. GM's major focus is stopping Congress from raising fuel standards and also just staying afloat...

[OzarkDem]

42. Then they need to get off their backsides and demand it

Its going to take a hard fight by voters to make it happen. No one else will do it for them.

[Dulcinea]

57. Universal health care will happen if and only if...

...corporate America demands it. The big automakers are being buried by retiree pensions & health care, for example. They might be first.

[pinto]

12. That is the rhetoric being used down here. Medicare for all seems

such a simple solution to me, overall. Yet the strawman of 'socialized' medicine - or 'government run' healthcare - still finds a voice here.

We have a history of distrust for government programs - until we need them.

Go figure.

[dysfunctional press]

14. we already have socialized healthcare in the u,s....

it's just a matter of making people understand that.

[Jackpine Radical]

24. I think something like 60% of health care is paid for by state, local & Federal government already.

Medicare, Medicaid, the military, the VA system, and government employees & retirees, for example.

[dysfunctional press]

45. group insurance itself is "socialized medicine"...

although admittedly not purely so-

but- the concept is there...the risks are spread over a large pool of people, to provide the most effective and affordable coverage for all. in theory.

[whoneedstickets]

33. EXACTLY! We already cover SO many...

and most of these are the 'high cost' patients! The disabled, the aged, veterans. The ones NOT covered in our system are the young, working age. Instead we make them pay TWICE, once into a program they can't have access too (Medicare) and then for their own insurance! Lets simply allow them to pay ONCE into 'Medicare for all'

[pretzel4gore]

16. maybe americans got to recognise who their enemy is?

maybe they should wait, forever if necessary, until they do? Too many american are dangerous, vicious people who murder with slack jawed indifference- why is that? How can they mix up Christ, and mass murdering innocent children? How can they learn from their mistakes, then remake the same mistakes a generation later, and swear by god they mean well, and there was no mistake?

[depakid]

17. Republicans will never let it happen

And they'll be joined by thue usual sellout Dems. Meanwhile, the cowardly "leadership" will whinge about "not having the votes" rather than putting the srews to those standing in the way.

I agree with one of the posters above, until there's a major economic collapase, there's little to suggest that universal health care will ever make it out of the planning stages.

[eShirl]

48. "until there's a major economic collapase"

Wile E. Coyote is standing in mid-air above the canyon and about to look down.

[brentspeak]

18. What bothers me is that the American public as a whole still accepts the corporate line

A small army of carefully-screened media pundits hawk the corporate line on all political and economic matters (such as national health care), and voila! At the the end of the day, the same corporate politicians get elected, and the same corporate legislations gets enacted. Mission accomplished.

Will there ever be a day when the average American citizen finally turns their back on the corporate mainstream media in protest to the swill that the media shoves in the nation's face every single day?

[Liberal In Texas]

19. Yeah, I heard a similar propaganda talking point again when I went back for T'giving

to Nebraska. "What about the Canadians waiting for months and months to get even simple procedures done?"
I had to patiently explain that it is not true. I suggested to the guy I was talking to that he rent "Sicko" and got the snicker/whine about how it was Michael Moore suggesting that you couldn't believe it simply because it was MM.

There are a lot people in this country who have been seriously indoctrinated by all the crap they listen to on the radio and watch on TV. Thanks for the comment glarius, you are spot on.

K/R

[magellan]

22. Americans fear "socialism"

And that's the fault of our government and media, who spent 50 years demonizing the word and still do. To the extent that Americans bristle if you point out that forms of "socialism" are all around us and are inextricably part of American life.

[OHdem10]

25. Do not forget--the elites do not wish to pay taxes that would

make it possible.

[baldguy]

26. HMOs don't let you pick your doctor either.

When people reject govt bureaucracy, it's inevitable that corporate bureaucracy will take its place.

[glarius]

28. But the point is we DO pick out own doctors. I have changed doctors on

my own in the last 10 years....no problem. The government simply pays the bills...that's all.

[Imagevision]

27. Universal Health Care seemed to be working great in other countries in sICKO and

it wasn't video trickery...

[lovuian]

29. No its coming everybody knows it

if we go into a depression
homeless out of work people and children can't pay insurance but they can vote

[sandnsea]

31. Our taxes pay for a global military

*sigh*

[leftchick]

32. and hillary's plan is Called Health care?

instead of Insurance/Big Pharma Care? You are so Right glarius and americans are so stupid to their detriment to not know the difference.

[bvar22]

37. Hillary does NOT have a HealthCare Plan!

Hillary has a Mandatory Private Health Insurance Plan!

Big Difference!

"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[leftchick]

49. that was my point

another ponzi scheme for big pharma and big insurance that fucks us!

[debbierlus]

34. Oh, we will. It will just take the vast majority of people not having good care

Sure, they will try to implement a universal insurance program, but it won't work. It won't address the fact that unless you
take the profit motive OUT, you won't get people the care they need.

Give it five or ten years. The private insurance companies are destroying the health care system. The end swoop of forcing everyone to have coverage without equal care will probably work through one or two more election cycles, but it won't work very much longer.

Everything changes. The pendulum will swing back the other way. The big problem we face is that the problems this nation faces are coming to a head all at once, & we won't even acknowledge they are on the door step. Time is not on our side.

[Zorra]

36. You are so right on. The ignorant things that I frequently hear people say

about UHC come straight out of Pox News.

The other day a 78 year old woman that that was almost crying because she had just paid $400 out of pocket for her husband's medicine was complaining about how those damn Democrats want socialized medicine.

The media brainwashing here is truly astounding.

[leftofthedial]

38. the real reason we will never have it

is that the country is broke and getting broker

we can't afford health care AND killing all the brown-skinned heathens that the Brits left alive

[Cleita]

41. The Brits managed to accomplish NHC in spite of all the

brown people they killed while an empire. I think we can too once we refocus our priorities and expel all the vampires from our government who are diverting our national and social interests to feather their nested interests.

[nealmhughes]

43. The UK was on fumes when Labour came in after the war. US gas fumes, literally and figuratively.

They still had to rebuild Swansea, Liverpool, Belfast and London from the Luftwaffe and get out of India, yet they did it and got the NHS going! Blighty was so broke then I am surprised they didn't offer Liz up for auction to a Rockefeller as potential consort.

[Cleita]

40. It'll be awhile.

The for profit insurance companies have a stranglehold on this very profitable business. Our politicians need to squeeze the profit out of health care while expanding coverage to everyone. This is how it will happen and unfortunately not soon enough for most who are in dire need right now.

[Froward69]

46. I agree, so Does Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jilpix0_6P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA8HC_IBhcc&mode=related...

[underpants]

44. Democrats use it like Republicans use abortion

Never ending no resolution

Oh did I say that out loud?

[Quixote1818]

47. Yep! Spot on. nt

[Skidmore]

50. I disagree with your reason why. It won't happen as long as politicians

find it a convenient election issue for the parties. Many of our nation's problems have not been solved because they have been more useful as issues to keep the nation divided so that a small group of people can hang onto power for decades on end. This is the same reason we have not had a serious energy plan from congress. They toss out a crumb now and then so that they can pacify the masses when the crowds get a little raucous and then it's back to business as usual. The PEOPLE need to get serious and kick some of these asses out.

[Vinca]

51. You're exactly right, glarius. That's why I'm very, very thankful

my husband is a CANADIAN-American. We're holding out to see the trend with the next election, but if there's no movement toward true universal healthcare (not universal health insurance), we've got a spot north of the border all picked out.

[lame54]

52. H.R. 676 has 86 sponsors so far...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Lasher]

53. Big money in the US health insurance industry

That's why we don't see even Democratic presidential candidates lighting up the campaign trail promoting single payer universal health care for all. And all that big money keeps the propaganda flowing.

There are lots of people who don't like the Canadian health care system but none of the them seem to be Canadians.

[progressoid]

54. And RW talking heads beat this dead horse every day.

"The government DOES NOT CONTROL IT, OR CHOOSE OUR DOCTORS OR HOSPITALS. WHAT THEY DO IS PAY THE BILLS!"

Not according to the RW hate machine. They will lie and fight this to the end. Truth and facts be damned.

[The2ndWheel]

55. It will because it leads to growth

Once the problems of aging populations kick in, the only way to keep the system going will be by universal care. When you have more and more people all the time, you don't need the universal stuff, because the population itself grows, allowing the system to grow. If the population is no longer growing though, then you need the universal programs, since you need more from each person because there are fewer of them. Each person can't prop up their choice of company. You won't have the companies without the government providing the foundation for society, so then everyone is put into the single payer/universal program in order to keep the infrastructure of government intact. Unless we start having more people, it's going to happen at some point.

Now, what do you do after the universal program begins its inevitable process of diminishing returns? The only thing you could do in order to keep the system going is to integrate more people, and that would mean merging countries like the US and Canada(pretty much what the EU is doing, because of their aging populations over there). The same way the universal health programs would work, by everyone, no matter who you are, paying into one program, that's why nation-state integration would have to occur at some point.

The US will get universal care, if we want to keep the country going a few more years.

[HughBeaumont]

59. Blame this asshole:

In fact, you can pretty much blame "Mr. Red Scare" for damned near EVERYTHING wrong in this country today. Starting with enabling and then strengthening the unbridled corporatism that MADE all of those problems happen. Among them, the US lacking Universal Health Care.

[NewJeffCT]

60. Most European countries have a mix of public & private insurance

not purely public insurance. However, they guarantee insurance for all.

Switzerland uses primarily private insurance, but the government guarantees everybody has insurance and is basically the insurer of last resort.

AFLAC, an American company, makes upwards of $10 billion/year in Japan alone selling supplemental medical insurance policies that cover what the government insurance does not cover there. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese companies that do similar.

[T.Ruth2power]

61. Hear, hear

K&R

[Gonnuts]

63. One word - MONEY

The other word is INSURANCE. The amount of money the insurance companies make off the Health Care Industry is the reason we'll never see UHC here.

Then there's this factor - what do you do with the tens-of-thousands of jobs lost in the insurance industry if UHC were to become a reality? I have a suggestion what they can do - but it's physically impossible.

[liberal N proud]

64. Government by the corporations for the corporations n/t