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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:38 PM
Original message
"People think I'm a paranoid nutcase when I talk about this stuff"
In a thread about the feds trying to get at Amazon customer information,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
w8liftinglady made the above statement. I have found the same to be true -- the more I talk about what *Co has done to ignore the Constitution, or comment about our approaching fascism in this country, I get puzzled looks. I want to scream, "Read, people, READ! Turn off your damned TVs and READ!"

What the hell can we do to convince folks of what's happening to them? What will it take?
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Personally I always show friends the 12 minute CLint Curtis testimony
in congress in ohio 2004. just google clint curtis testimony. That generally does it. I remind them that the whole country was busy reading about Terri Schiavo that day and noone paid attention to ohio.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. If you want people to not think you are crazy
Try using words that aren't loaded. Words like "fascist" bring about images of Hitler and such, and does not accurately describe the subtle authoritarian streak of this despicable administration.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Subtle authoritarian streak?
SUBTLE!?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. May I join you?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The government trying to find out what the people are reading
is a whole lot like fascism and such.
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. In case you haven't noticed, we're way beyond a few tweaks to what the Founding Fathers intended.
The parallels to Nazi Germany have been cited in more places than I could count or cite.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I could not possibly think of a more apt comparision than Germany during the rise of Hitler and the
US right now.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

<snip>

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. "...being governed by surprise..."
I've never heard a truer phrase.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. If you immediately come out and say
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:14 PM by Mr_Monday
"Bush is a fascist", they will tune you out almost immediately. But if you tone down your rhetoric a little bit, they might actually listen to you. They question is: Do you want to be right, or do you want to convince others that you are right? Do you want to persuade people to prevent Bush Co. from rising to power, or would you rather sit atop the rubble of our society saying "I TOLD YOU SO! I TOLD YOU!" The decision is yours.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Isn't it funny how WE always have to be reasonable but Nazis and Bushies NEVER DO.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:14 PM by tom_paine
Why is that? They cvan fabricate a phony "War on Christams", they can tell demonstrable lie after demonstrable lie after demonstrable lie to millions and suffer no consequences.

A Liberal, when they are even allowed access to a microphone that can reach hundreds of thousands are more (other than Keith Olberman, there is nothing and no one, not with the power to reach millions), better not stray one iota from the facts, and sometimes, even that doesn't matter because the Bushies essentially now have the power to rewrite truth and lies in such a way that there simple is no such things as truth or lies in Imperial Ameriks (Rathergate, among dozen sof examples).

Well, I am sick and tired of playing by Bushie/Nazi Rules. Once you except their rules, their frames of talking about things and their lies as "Conevtional Wisdom" then you are dead before you start.

Talking about it "reasonably"..say how did that work in the 1990s? Pretty well, right?

You say the Bushies have a subtle authoritarian streak, I say you are more wrong that you could ever imagine. Sure, they can't be as violent as the Nazis they have patterened their mentality and their programming after, not yet anyway, but a simple lack of violence and overt racism being the only notable differences between the two groups is certainly not enough to disavow simiularity and call something subtle just because it is the same machine but more powerfully designed.

In my signature link, there is a 47 minute video. If you haven't heard of her, the lecturer is Naomi Wolf.

Before you dismiss the Bushie-Nazi similarities (amount and frequency of lies told, absolutist and eliminationst talk about their fellow citizens, open contempt of the very idea of free elections and a massive vote suppression scheme, much of it which operates quite openly, among so very many other similarities), perhaps you should watch the YouTube video I have linked to below.

47 minutes of your life, that's all I ask. You will not regret it. Even IF you do not agree with Ms. Wolf, you will have added to the strength of your convictions by subjecting it to the very best the "opposing opinion" has to offer, with all the research done, the Is dotted and the Ts crossed.

If you can knock that down, then your convictions will be all the stronger. Dare to test them.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. i think we are in a dance of resistance ... they resist seeing the truth ...
we ought to push back resisting their resistance with the same resistance that they give us, and we ought to look at them with he same puzzled looks and say, you mean you ain't seen the light yet? ah! but you will. hopefully, though, not too late for either you or me.
we ought to not let them surprise us into silence, passivity, or a shrug of the shoulders.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. As my sig line says, "Just because you are paranoid, does not mean they are not out to get you!!"
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. I've found the best way to convince people...
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:57 PM by iamahaingttta
...is to NOT TRY to convince them.

Seriously. Look at them like they are the idiots that they are, and say "Oh, you're one of those people who only watches that corporate crap on television. No wonder you have no idea what's really going on." Really... the insults work. When they start to spew their crap, just kinda laugh and say "yeah, WHATEVER!" and roll your eyes and laugh some more. Before you know it, they start asking you questions. Play coy and act like they're never going to get it so you're not going to bother to tell them what you know. Then insult them some more. It also helps if you can express the notion that they are going to be more screwed than you are because of their own ignorance.

DON'T GET MAD! A lot of the braindead will toy with you to make you mad. MAKE THEM MAD INSTEAD. Seriously, that will make them ask you questions. You have to be ready with some real ammo when this happens, and prove your superiority without any doubt. Laugh at them and don't get mad. Here's an example of the kind of thing that you can use as ammo, something I saw here earlier today:

Housing starts are the lowest in years, median house prices are at historic lows, and Faberge eggs are selling at record prices. This is an example of how the middle class is getting fucked and the rich are richer than ever.

That's the kind of ammo that will actually make them think for a change. Real life stuff, not wonky stuff, or conspiracy sounding stuff. Hit them with it and hit them hard. Then start screaming "Read, people, READ! Turn off your damned TVs and READ!"
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Z_I_Peevey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I stopped trying to convince people of the obvious long ago.
These days I just grit my teeth and wait.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Their excuse
Well I am not hiding anything. But what the dimwits don't understand is, whether you are hiding anything or not, government is not supposed to snoop into your personal life, without a warrant and the evidence THAT YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG.
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. AMEN! I have friends and family thinking I need to be committed
Not that I want to have the last laugh on them, but I just wish the sucky MSM would cover more of what the government is doing so I'm not unfairly tagged as a lunatic.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. yes -- who else gets people rolling their eyes, as soon as talk turns to war ...
... and civil liberties, and who is benefiting from all the nasty stuff that's happening right now?

I never considered myself a militant left-winger/feminist/environmentalist/anti-globalization protester -- or that much of a political junkie -- but I guess, compared to a lot of folks who just can't or won't pay attention, I seem radical by comparison! Plus I'm in Canada, and people tend to say, "but everything's okay up here, since it's the US being affected, not us". And they don't seem to be aware of things like the Security and Prosperity Partnership, or the other policies that affect other countries besides the States.

In a way, it's almost a bad thing that Bush's term is up next year, because I know darned well that at least some of those who are opposed to him now, will be saying "he's out, and everything will be okay again". Well, the problems are a lot deeper than Bush ... or the GOP, for that matter. Even if there's a regime change, we are still stuck with the mess.

Lately I have taken to making snarky one-liners about the administration's policies, instead of coming right out with the new f-word (fascism). If the people I'm with pick up on this and start ranting, I feel confident in letting rip re: Halliburton, Katrina, and the things that tend to get branded as "paranoid conspiracy theories". Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are onto something ... sometimes the best way to get through people's assumptions (encouraged by the media) that anybody who talks about social justice issues is some kind of wild-eyed flake, is to use humor.
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