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I see "pro-choice" as very different from "pro-abortion" --- do you?

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:46 PM
Original message
I see "pro-choice" as very different from "pro-abortion" --- do you?
Maybe it's just semantics, but I see the terms pro-choice and pro-abortion as very different.

Pro-choice honors a woman's right to make decisions about her own body. Having an abortion is a very personal and often a gut wrenchingly difficult decision; but that is a decision for the woman to make.

Pro-abortion seems like a RW talking point which somehow suggests abortion is a preferred method of birth control. I have never experienced or viewed choice that way, but I think the right-to-life folks do.

I respect a woman's right to choose, but I don't think they are being "pro-abortion" by making that difficult choice.

How I see it anyway...and you?
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. I hate the term pro-abortion, just as much as I hate the term anti-abortion.
I've not met one person who is "pro" abortion. They just realize and accept a woman's right to choose.

I like the term pro-choice and anti-choice. You either are for a woman's right to choose, or you're against it. But none of this pro-abortion, anti-abortion bullshit.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes. That's the difference.
Personally, I'm pro-abortion.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. i've never known anyone who is pro-abortion...kinda like being pro-open heart surgery
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 02:50 PM by spanone
pro choice is the real term...imho

like the term pro-life.... does that mean i'm pro-death if i disagree?

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Clinton said it best in 1996. NO ONE is pro-abortion.
(Maybe it was 1992??)

Pro-choice is a completely different thing.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Right.
Abortion is a value-free medical procedure. We're not for or against it. We're for women having the choice to have that procedure when they and their doctor feel it's necessary.

Pro-life is definitely a lot of twisted marketing. Very few "pro-life" people that I've ever met give a damn about helping people who are already alive. And a large majority of them seem to be for the death penalty. x(
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Yes. Medical practice should be value-free...
And yet beholden to providing accessible and highly competent services.

This debate is a cousin to the controversies around some pharmacists' refusing to honor a prescription for the "day after" pill or those groups that are opposed to Oregon's Death With Dignity law.

Why is personal choice such a challenging concept for some folks to understand? And more often then not, these are the same people who complain about too much government (unless someone is doing something they don't like). Then of course they say, please gov --- intervene!

Hypocrisy is action.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, very different
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 02:51 PM by slackmaster
I am pro-choice on abortion, drugs, guns, religion, education, Starbuck's coffee, Wal-Mart, medicine, gay marriage, hunting, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and just about everything else.

My personal view is that I consider abortion (yes, even at very early stages) distasteful and not something that any thoughtful person would seek out unless under duress, or take joy in. I've always taken the position that if I become the sperm donor in an unplanned pregnancy, I would be willing to embrace parenthood and help raise the child. I would never encourage anyone to have an abortion, though if a friend needed help funding one or getting to it I would probably be willing to help out.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Well said...
Me too. I especially hate abortion for birth control. I really hate when people say they got one because "they weren't ready" or "it was a financial burden". No one is ever ready, and unless you are heir to the Seagram's fortune, it's a freaking financial nightmare. Very shallow reasoning, imho.

But I'll be damned if I want to see the guvmint decide there should be no abortions! There are some very valid reasons for an abortion... rape, birth defects, danger to mother. Not much else is a good reason as far as I am concerned.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Pro-choice might have a larger context if it also included the right to choose to
carry a fetus to term without society judging the mother and the future child in terms of morality, e.g., illegitimate, bastard, Scarlet "A", etc. and if society showed support for that wanted child by providing affordable (if not free) medical care to the expectant mother and to the baby once born, food stamps for a healthy diet(s), and safe and reliable daycare so the mothers can get an education and a career to support their children.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. I think we ALL have that to answer for
those who think themselves "pro-life" certainly seem to think all that is secondary at best, too.

Time we got over those issues and offered help to those who need it, period.

But pro-choice has always meant that it is indeed the woman's choice to make -- whatever choice she makes.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes! I for one am pro-choice, but anti-abortion
I think there are many of us, actually.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm pro-choice, but anti-abortion - for myself.
I've never been in the position where it was something to consider, so I can't even begin to judge what someone who reaches that conclusion goes through to get there.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I've been faced with the decision...
And decided to postpone my education, get into debt, go through all the trials and tribulations of being a 21-year-old parent without enough income or health benefits, all because at the last minute, sitting in the doctor's office waiting my turn, I couldn't go through with it.

My oldest is a chemical engineer now... and a joy and a gift to the world. I made the right decision (for me), and after that decision was made, I immediately fell madly in love with my unborn child and the pressures noted above didn't seem so bad.

All that being said, regardless of the reasons, I would never want a person to become a parent if they weren't completely into it. Personally, I'd go the adoption route if I were in that position. But no two people are the same.

My main thing is that if the guvmint outlaws abortion, they will outlaw all abortions, so women who are carrying a child who would never have a good life due to birth defects, who would be in constant agony, would be forced to give birth to that poor child. And then there are the back alley abortion clinics that would kill so many women. Not a good alternative.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Wow. What a story. Good for you making that decision.
I would never want to force parenthood on ANYONE. I have three beautiful kids, all are healthy, (except for at the moment when everyone is sick with a cold) and we can provide for them in a reasonable manner.

I agree with you. I don't think people should be forced into being parents. It's such a difficult, time consuming, all consuming job. There are nights when I think I'm done and I hear "Hey, Mom, can I talk to you?"

You can't refuse, so you dig down to the depths of your exhaustion and do it. In our case, I stayed home with them until the little one went to K and even now, I work from my home and in my pajamas most days. I can't imagine how difficult being a single parent must be. My brother was one for a while after his first wife died and last year when my husband had major surgery, I was the 'go to parent'.

It was exhausting. You always feel that you are shortchanging someone, and obviously always shortchanging yourself.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Three cheers for the 'go to parent'
Funny how a mom can feel fulfilled when they are being shortchanged, isn't it?

I got married, had two more (same father) and stayed at home (poor but happy) until all three were in school full time. I got a late start on all the things I wanted to do, including a career. Shortchanged? Or fulfilled? Both? Probably. And I'd do it all over again with pleasure. I'm sure you would too.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. Yes, me too
That's it exactly. Personally, I can't imagine the situation in which I'd choose an abortion. But that's strictly me. I have no right to make another woman's choice.
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes. And the other term I hate is "pro-life". "Anti-choice" captures
the other position better. If they were 'pro-life' they'd be 'pro-healthcare' and 'pro-education' and so on.
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Pro-life can be pro-choice
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:39 PM by theredpen
It's not a comfortable position, but it's one held by many people who are truly pro-life.

Pro-life entails respect for all life. That means opposing all unjust taking of life including the death penalty and unjust wars (like Iraq).

I have a bumper sticker that says, "War is NOT pro-life." It really pisses off the anti-choice twits. "Abortion stops a beating heart." Yeah, what an underacheivement; now, cluster bombs... they stop bunches of beating hearts! That's some real culture of death!
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formerrepuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes. Nobody is 'pro-abortion', thats a RW term, like 'far-left' or 'anti-American'...
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Anti-choice folks won't acknowledge that deciding not to have an abortion is a valid choice
People who are pro-choice are perfectly ok with their choice not to end their pregnancies.
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SomeGuyInEagan Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yes. "Pro-Abortion" *IS* a RW talking point.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:12 PM by SomeGuyInEagan
And a pretty effective one, at that.

"Choice" is a positive, empowering word. "Abortion" carries negative connotations. Paint your opponent as "Pro-Abortion" early and repeatedly and it's an uphill battle for them from then on with that issue.

Conservative causes have been very good at employing such phrasing to demonize the left (such as "Pro-Abortion" and "Tax-and-Spend") as well as dreaming up flowery language for their own initiatives ("Blue Skies Initiative" and "No Child Left Behind" quickly spring to mind).

You would think that Dems would've figured this out years ago, but it comes up every election.

On edit: fixed a big mistake, sorry
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. EXACTLY! They got the best of us on that one!!!! Semantics can be very powerful...that is why one
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:22 PM by BrklynLiberal
must be able to control the language...as George Lakoff so vehemently urged the Democrats...WE must be the ones to frame the message, and not allow the repukes to do so... They are much too clever at changing the focus of an issue by changing the wording of the issues.


"Framing the Dems: How conservatives control political debate and how progressives can take it back," by George Lakoff, THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, September 2003


http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lakoff.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. That's how I see it
abortion is one of many options open to a pregnant woman--and one that should not be denied, yet not be encouraged, either. I've known women who used abortion as a form of birth control, and I've known women who used it because otherwise they would be dead or physically incapacitated the rest of their lives. The point is, the CHOICE should be left up to the woman involved.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Absolutely
I see it the same way you do.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. No maybe about it.. IT IS SEMANTICS. The repukes used semantics against the pro-choice issue.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:31 PM by BrklynLiberal
check out any search for "George Lakoff, framing the debate" and you will see how semantics can control an issue. The Repukes have been masters at this. Look at all the deceptive bullshit they have thrown out at the people over the past 7 years...
Every issue they discuss, they call the opposite of what their actual intentions are.
They have managed to make some people believe that "pro-choice" is the same as "pro-abortion". "Pro-abortion" and "pro-life" were semantic creations of the RW Conservative think tanks.
They were able to skew the issues and affect the thinking by the use of those words, as they have by calling the estate tax, the inheritance tax, and making people think that everyone would be affected, not just the >1% of people who have estates worth millions. That is just one example of their flim-flammery.
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crawfish Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. My feeling
I think both the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are political terms that define one's position, but not the opposing position. A "pro-choicer" is not anti-life, they view the woman's choice as a trump over the rights of the fetus. In similar terms, a "pro-lifer" is not (necessarily) anti-choice, they simply see the fetus as a viable human being which trumps the right of the woman to choose whether it lives or dies. Sure, there are some morons who'd like to take away a woman's rights to just about everything, but most of the pro-lifers I know share a genuine concern in a personal choice to decide whether a human lives or dies. While I don't share their views, I think it would be a bad thing if we let the "pro-choice' banner carry the entire argument as if the issue were that simple.

If both politicized terms were literal, then I suppose our side would support my right to own a gun while the other side would oppose the death penalty. Obviously, this is not the case.

If we want to be wholly honest, the terms would be "pro-abortion-choice" and "anti-abortion-choice". However, those terms aren't nearly as powerful as the current terms.
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SyntaxError Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I think you got it...
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Nicely explicated. Welcome to DU. n/t
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. well said
Good word-smithing there crawfish.

Kinda hard to find the right term for the wacko right, tho anti-abortion-choice technically is the most accurate.

Welcome to DU! :) :hi:
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Agree
Abortion is a personal decision between the parents, imo, and making it illegal just makes it less safe. The best cure for the number of abortions is better sex education, better access to birth control, and more responsibility.

I would love to see the day that no abortions are needed or wanted, but I would not love to see the day it becomes illegal again.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. "Pro abortion" mostly a right-wing male talking point
Because, of course, the majority of all women favor choice with regard to their bodies.
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LiberalHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. No, I don't see it that way.
I'm pro-abortion and not at all apologetic about it.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. How are you pro-abortion?
I was going to post that I didnt think anybody could be pro-abortion, so how do you define being pro-abortion
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. See post #40 below
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 08:55 PM by quantessd
Pro-abortion would mean actively encouraging happily pregnant women to get abortions.

Edit to add: I think anyone who is truly "pro-abortion" would already have been slapped in the face, and kicked in the groin, several times. ;-)
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I understand that
But i have a hard time believing anybody could actually believe that way.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Anyone who truly feels that way
would eventually learn to keep their thoughts to themselves, before they get beaten up or chased out of town.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. I am pro-abortion
I use the term pro and anti abortion because they are unloaded, unlike pro-choice and pro-life. Using Pro & anti allows us to discuss abortion without evoking the stigma's found in the argument.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. That's interesting, but misguided.
The way I see it, someone who is "pro-abortion" wants women to get abortions, even if the women themselves would like to go through with the pregnancy. A "pro-abortion" stance would entail actively encouraging happily pregnant women to get abortions. If that describes you, then great, keep calling yourself pro-abortion.

If not, then "pro-choice" is correct.
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electprogdems Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. I agree with you, however
I see "right-to-life" as exactly the same as "forced pregnancy"
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Pro-abortion implies imposition of abortion on others. That's NOT pro-choice.
Yep. Those repukicons sure have a way with managing mental images.

Pro-choice respects BOTH those who object to and those who choose abortion as an alternative.
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. The term pro-abortion does not sound pro-choice to me
I am pro-choice because I think women should have a choice what happens to their bodies if they get pregnant. However I would not describe myself as pro-abortion because that term makes it sounds as if abortion is being promoted as the best option. I would not care if there were no longer any abortions because it became a fantasy world in which birth control never failed, rape never happened, and medical emergencies never occured in wanted pregnancies and thus no one needed an abortion... and I doubt anyone would object to that scenario if it were possible (which obviously it is not)... so how does pro-abortion make sense as a term?
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. we're all pro-life. but the anti-choicers support war on the living.
But the ideal philosophy is to limit and regulate abortions so that that they're legal and rare and safe but also to have no war. War kills.

Ok..so I confess...I'm not sure I would support or not support the death penalty and that is a 'life' issue as well as one that has rascist roots.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. You are precisely correct. nt
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. ANTI-CHOICE is the proper term.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 07:49 PM by quantessd
It's all about choice, either anti- or pro-.

Don't even bother discussing the other terms. Just anti-choice or pro-choice, shades in between, and that's that.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. "Maybe it's just semantics..." "Pro-abortion seems like a RW talking point"... SEEMS LIKE?
:wow:
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