"You're a dreamer, Beckman, they'll get you first."...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

Poll question: "You're a dreamer, Beckman, they'll get you first."...

...This was a line delivered in a scene from the '69 anti-war film Castle Keep (directed by Sydney Pollack), where Major Falconer (Burt Lancaster) congratulates Captain Beckman (Patrick O'Neil) on successfully knocking a German reconnaissance plane out of the air with a .50 caliber machine gun mount from atop a castle.

It's late in the war and they're in the Ardennes Forest making what they know will be a hopeless stand (only eight men) against approaching German troops en route for Bastone. Beckman is against it, knowing their lives will be unnecessarily lost, it will not alter/influence the already clear outcome of the war, and, seemingly most painful to him, the beautiful castle and its contents will be destroyed. He makes his views known to Major Falconer but the Major will hear none of it.

The scene: http://youtube.com/watch?v=EqFr8h4pWOo

My question(s): If you were Beckman, having failed to convince the other men of the futility of following Major Falconer in making this stand, would you have willfully stayed and followed orders?

And secondly, if at some point in the near future you are called upon (ordered) by the U.S. government to participate and/or contribute much more actively/meaningfully in our Middle East and/or global war effort, and barring any meaningful internal citizen anti-war resistance movement, will you comply?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

1. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

3. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

4. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

5. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. "Sacrifice few to save many" is perfectly logical..unless you're part of the few.

When I was the Infantry Training Regiment in the marines, they took us to a "range" and displayed what machine guns could do by loading 2 machine guns with tracers and firing them across an open field.

I was VERY impressed and convinced that a very speedy grasshopper couldn't make it across that field.

Then they marched us to the next training "range" and showed us how to attack machine guns marine style.
Part of the company was to flank the bunker the machine guns (there weren't any machine guns) while the rest of us were to stand up, put our M1's on our hip and march, in line, straight at the bunker while blasting up a lot of dust with our M1's. It worked slick. The flanking bunch crept up and heaved grenades through the slits and we won.

The exercise convinced me that:

a) The idiots who devised the tactic were idiots.
b) They should never have shown me what machine guns can do.
c) That if anybody ever told me to do such a stupid thing there was going to be a helluva fight, and I had a gun.

I don't know about that Beckman fellow, but being neither stupid, or crazy, I would have waved them a fond good-bye.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

7. I think I'd actually have to REALLY be in Beckman's...

...shoes to know for sure what I'd do. If I felt a strong bond of camaraderie, and had been through a lot with so many as one of the guys who were staying, I'm not sure I could duck out -- as much as I'd want to. That said, I don't judge anyone who would, a suicide stand with no real potential payoff is an outrageous and immoral thing to ask of any human being -- to refuse it is wholly justified.

Someone like Major Falconer would, of course, insist that there was a meaningful payoff -- a bullshit lie.

[bemildred]

8. Other:

Frag Falconer and lead the men to safety. Falconer is an asshole whose position makes no military sense. A good commander does not get his force exterminated for no useful purpose.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

9. I wouldn't judge you for that option either -- guys did it in Nam...

...sometimes with justification.

[bemildred]

10. Well, it's not a thing to be lightly done.

But the case posed is deliberately extreme, so ...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

11. Kick for larger sample. nt.