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Why do we think a driver's license is some sort of privelege?

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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:39 PM
Original message
Why do we think a driver's license is some sort of privelege?
I personally think it is an infringement on personal freedom. And I resent the fact that I have to have one while illegal immigrants are free to drive all around the country without having a license or carrying insurance. Are these people so fucking dumb that they believe no one who lacks a license is going to drive? I think the whole argumkent is stupid. From an authoritarian republican point of view they should be requiring immigrants to get a drivers license, not denying them one.
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. I never want to drive again.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
132. I fear other drivers much more that the terrorists
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Immigrants can get a license, just not ILLEGALS
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. They shouldn't get food either. In fact, they are using up our air!
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Look, if they come here illegally, they have no right to get a license
If they come here legally, then they can take a driving course and get a license. Thats why they say "getting a license is a prevlage, one must earn it". In the situation I just explained, by coming legally and take the appropriate cources, they'v earned it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I find it hilarious that the hardest working people in this country
are continually asked to earn whatever bullshit "privilege" that our generous citizenry feels they don't deserve.

Really. It's hilarious.

And if I ever break down on the road, I'm calling my friend Sergio, not you. :hi:
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. And if they're such hard working people (which I dont doubt)
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 10:30 PM by CRF450
Why dont they put that hard working effort to coming here legally? And as illegals, they cant get insurance. I sure wouldn't want an uninsured driver plowing into my vehicle.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. So do you know what it takes to legally immigrate?
Since you seem so sure that people who are literally starving in their own country have the resources ($1000+ for starters) to go through the US immigration process, why don't you lay it out step-by-step for me?

I'll tell the crickets to be polite while I wait.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Did we make them poor? Nope.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 11:46 PM by CRF450
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Um, yeah we did.
Research NAFTA, corn subsidies, the damming of the Colorado River, and get back to me.

And then tell someone who's starving that they have to continue starving because they were born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Ok I stand currected on that part, but it still doesn't make difference
They break our laws coming here illegally, they dont deserve a drivers license. We already have enough trouble on how easy it is for shitty drivers to get a DL, we dont need anymore of that crap. This stuffs gotta end, but no one is enforcing our borders!
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Well, I think I made my point.
By the way, excellent satire on your part. That was satire, right?
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
79. Oh most certainly policies supported by the US and the IMF
have contributed to increased poverty in Mexico and other Latin American countries, Time and again those countries are told that if they want IMF money they must privatize various governmental services.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
117. Do you know what it takes to LEGALLY immigrate? Nope.
Think before you post next time.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
106. If people are starving in Mexico, MEXICO needs to do something about it!!
Mexico is rich in natural resources. There's no good reason for people there to be so poor they need to emigrate to improve their lot. Darfur, Bangladesh, maybe. But Mexico isn't Darfur.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #106
116. It's probably not that simple
Human migration is a natural impulse that has occurred all throughout history. Insisting people stay in the borders they were born in just doesn't work. Human nature doesn't allow for it.

If this country were to fall apart and there were Canadians or Mexicans willing to hire us, we'd go there. Let's not kid ourselves, if we were in the same position, we'd do the same thing.

The U.S. used to be so generous, and I hate seeing it become so stingy. It's still the richest nation in the world, and the birthrate is low due to that.

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Again, Mexico is swimming in natural resources
It isn't falling apart. It's wealth is not being fairly distributed, not even by market forces. The rich in Mexico send their poor here. Our borders are a pressure valve that lets Mexico avoid solving its own problems. We need to stop hiring Mexican workers, taking away their reason to come here, thus forcing Mexico to start dealing with its problems.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. You are aware that not all ILLEGALZZZ are Mexican, right?
Just because they're brown and Hispanic doesn't make them Mexican anymore than being white and from North America makes me Canadian.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #124
137. The great majority are Mexican.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #116
154. "Stingy" - funny how without having even seen this post, that was a word that sprung into my mind
to describe too many Americans today.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #106
121. I bet you aren't aware of this but every single time a progressive
runs in Mexico, the US government makes sure they don't win. Last time out, BushCo even sent down speech writers and other "consultants" and it looks like they bribed the high court into tanking the recount.

Mexico DOES need to take action. But that action is difficult to take when the whole force of the US government is funding and facilitating more or less constant attacks on their democracy. There's a lot of $ at stake here. And, apparently it's enough for the Corporati to mind those elections and make sure the status quo isn't disrupted.

So, it's not that simple, "Mexico needs to do something". Mexico likely elected a progressive reformer last time but the US government made sure he wasn't seated. :shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. This is the deal.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 02:02 AM by sfexpat2000
Mexico (and most of Latin America) has had to deal with American destabilization of their democracies. For example, the last time out, BushCo helped their @ssholes STEAL the election from the progressive.

That's problem #1. If our government stopped f#cking with their elections, guess what? People would stay home where they want to be.

Second, the immigration system is broken. It's nearly impossible to come here legally, just to work or to stay. Stir in the horrible effects of NAFTA on Mexico (Thanks, Bill!) and small business people there going broke -- it's a perfect storm.

The whole situation is rigged to rip off workers here AND there. So, the solution isn't to criminalize the least powerful people in this whole cluster f3ck. And the whole time they are being hated, these workers are a net gain to our economy and have just about the lowest crime rate of any other demographic.

But, the haters will tell otherwise. That's how Republicans get votes.

/ack



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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
67. Apparently you don't have much of a clue as to what it takes to gain legal status
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:01 AM by Toots
I have a close friend that married a mexican gal six years ago and she still has not been allowed to gain legal status. Their American baby is now almost six years old and can't come to America with it's mother..
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
54. Hardest working?!? You haven't been to Phoenix, have you?
If your definition of "hard work" is standing around on the street corner all day, or shooting our cops,or getting drunk at night and crashing in our streets, I guess you're right.

(I know, not all of them do that - that was a hasty generalization just like pretending they are all the "hardest working" members of our society.)
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. They're standing around on the street corner hoping to be chosen as day laborers
That much I know. If they don't get chosen to pick strawberries or help shingle a house or something, they have nowhere else to go.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #54
82. But I can disprove yours. For one thing, immigrants have a lower
crime rate than just about any other group. For another, the money these people send back to their families is something like the third largest contributor to the Mexican economy. You can't stand around all day and get that result.

I have worked around undocumented workers for most of my adult life. Yes, they are the hardest working people I've ever met.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
144. Maybe you have different illegals there.
I would not classify the ones I see as hard-working.

I'm sure there are many I don't see who ARE hard-working, but I won't make a blanket statement about all of them, because they can no more be lumped into a single group than can anyone else.

Illegals make up a disproportionately large percentage of the jail population here. They didn't get there by being hard-working.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. The Myth of Immigrant Criminality
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
120. Yup. A good number of them are involved in gangs.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #120
143. What utter racist crap.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #143
147. Thank you sfexpat
I've encountered so much racism from who I have considered to be good progressive people. Sometimes I think too many don't understand or don't want to understand their racism.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #143
148. How can you ignore reality?
There are illegal immigrants in gangs. Period.

Many gangs are made up almost entirely of illegal immigrants. Period.

Whether illegal immigrants as a whole commit more crimes per capita or fewer crimes per capita than any other group in the US does not change the two facts above. To say otherwise indicates that you are out of touch with reality.

Even if illegal immigrants commit crimes at 1/2 the rate of other citizens (which is not the case), the fact remains that if they weren't here, those crimes would not be committed.

***DISCLAIMER***

I am FOR immigration, and I am FOR overhauling our laws to allow the workers we want or need into the country. I am only against legitimizing people who have already shown no respect for our laws simply by being here.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. " A good number of them are involved in gangs"
Is utter racist crap. Maybe in *your* special reality, undocumented workers are a criminal class but in shared reality, they are not. The statement was not "there are undocumented workers in gangs" and there is a difference even if it is lost on you.

And, fyi, the fastest growing gangs in California, for example, ARE NOT Latino gangs.

If people would spend as much time vilifying the US government for their ILLEGAL interventions in Latin America, maybe "the immigration problem" could be resolved. How much more disrespectful of sovereign law can you be to look the other way when foreign heads of state are deposed, assassinated, when elections are stolen, when proxy wars are funded with your tax dollars? That pretty much makes you a collaborator, doesn't it?

So, lecture me on how "disrespectful" of our laws undocumented workers are. But have the intellectual honesty to do it in context.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #149
174. I'm not in California. The fastest growing gangs here ARE latino.
And many of them are made up of illegal immigrants who cross back and forth between the US and Mexico at will, or who have been arrested and deported before. Even our sanctuary-city police chief Gascon admits that.

That is reality. It does not represent all illegal immigrants, but the fact remains that those particular illegals are not "the hardest working people in America." Your blanket statement that all illegals are the hardest working people is simply not true. They are just people, like the rest of us. Some are lazy, some are hard-working, some are honest, some are criminals.

You seem to have them all on pedestals as saints. I see them all as law-breakers. The reality is probably somewhere in between. We're all going to have to change our views a little bit if anything is to be done about the situation.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #143
158. Did I say that illegal mexicans "only" come here for gang activity?
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 02:19 PM by CRF450
No I didn't. So dont lable me a fuckin racist cause I'm not! I have many friend of other races so dont even try that bullshit.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. I'm sure many of your best friends are Latinos.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #159
161. One of them is mexican.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. So glad to hear it. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
150. LOL
"standing around on the street corner all day, or shooting our cops,or getting drunk at night and crashing in our streets"

You forgot to include molesting our kids, spreading AIDS, having too many babies, raping our white women, not being any good at math and science, and diluting our poor aryan blood.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. And leprosy and welfare. Man, when do those people find time to eat?
:sarcasm:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
62. "the hardest working peopple"? Speak for yourself, first of all. And there's a LOT of illegals
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 07:38 AM by cryingshame
where I live who stand around with nothing to do all day.

BTW, one of my first jobs was at a plant nursery and back then there were a lot of Puerto Ricans working. They worked just as hard as I did. True, they're not 'illegals' but you should probably get my drift.

How about stop trying to sound the ultra-liberal all the time. Statements like "the hardest working people" do NOT help you make the case.

I live in NY and know that this issue needs to be resolved. But your phrasing and attitude suck on this matter just as much as those who don't want to address this.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #62
78. This is a perfect example.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 11:25 AM by superduperfarleft
Your post was rife with racism, and you probably don't even realize it.

And there's a LOT of illegals where I live who stand around with nothing to do all day.


Really? Have you checked each one's immigration status personally, or are you just assuming they're "illegal" because they're Hispanic?

BTW, one of my first jobs was at a plant nursery and back then there were a lot of Puerto Ricans working. They worked just as hard as I did. True, they're not 'illegals' but you should probably get my drift.


I'm failing to see the link between Puerto Ricans and ILLEGALZZZ, other than the fact that both are brown people from a region of the world that ignorant racist Americans universally refer to as "Mexico" when talking about illegal immigration.

How about stop trying to sound the ultra-liberal all the time.


How about not making racist, generalized statements about Hispanic people?

*cue the indignant "how dare you call me a racist just because I made some incredibly racist remarks!!!111"*
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #78
95. I decided this was a lost cause long ago.
But notice that my position is perceived as an "act". Holy cow. In the SoCal fires, people died because they were afraid to evacuate and so, be visible enough to be deported. Their jobs were *that* important to them.

Some of these posts leave me speechless and that's probably just as well.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #62
83. Respecting human rights is ultra liberal? Thanks for the update. n/t
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
97. Hey, Beth, you uber liberal, you!
I feel honored that you and I are part of the same secret club.
:rofl:

:hug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Please don't turn me in. Cats depend on me!
:rofl:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
151. How do you know the people standing around all day are illegals?
Skin color?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #151
153. Actually, that was me.
lol
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
58. And if people drive ILLEGALLY they have no right to get a licenses either
Why don't the Rule of Law folks show more outrage towards people who blow through crosswalks?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #58
98. You know what's amazing? The undocumented workers that I know
and who drive HAVE TO BE the best drivers around. Because they can't afford to get stopped for anything. Not for a brake light out, not for tags, not for nada.

So, you're here working mostly for peanuts and likely more than forty hours a week and every second that you are behind the wheel, you are exposing your whole life -- and possibly your family's -- to ruin.

So, you're hyper vigilant all the time. And in no case do you have any resort to law enforcement or to the law. This is an incredibly dangerous situation and who gets blamed? Workers. Good old "blame the victim".

Having a whole under class in this country is horrible for public health and safety. But the solution is not to blame or penalize the very people our own government drove out of their homes in the first place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. These are the same people who called undocmumented evacuees
from the SoCal fire "thieves". They'd just as soon see them die as look at them.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Illegal immigrants should not have licenses.
It is a privilege, one has to earn it, and drive carefully.

And you're right. They should be required to get one validly if they wish to drive; to hand them out for free is stupid.

Being legal immigrants helps too. :D
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's not a very safe public policy position.
These people need to drive to work and they do.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. "And you're right. They should be required to get one validly if they wish to drive"
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 09:46 PM by CRF450
Thats if they come here legally in the first place. The thought of sharing the roads with illegals scares me, I hear alot of bad stories about them causing horrible accidents.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. oh ok, illegals are at fault in "Horrible accidents" as opposed to the old days when
Lou Dobbs didn't make brown people the jewel in his tiara were they causing "Horrible accidents " as well but you didn't have some group to blame? Do you actually think you aren't sharing the road with non licensed drivers now?
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
49. So practically 50% of Injury Traffic Accidents caused by legal citizens...
driving while Under the Influence doesn't scare you more? Seriously, what's to fear from people who simply must drive in order to reach their jobs every day?

If what you hear is true, about "them causing horrible accidents", would you prefer being involved in a collision with someone who has a valid driver's license or someone who does not? Sharing the roads with people who have passed a driver's exam seems a good way to alleviate those fears of yours, wouldn't you say?
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. I think of those people too.
But consider this, illegals do not have insurance. Do you know what happens to a person who's hit by an uninsured driver?
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. The migrant workers I know certainly keep their insurance current...
and go out of their way to obey our rules of the road and not break any laws. It is illegal in this state to own a car that's not insured, if it's on the road.

Yes, I sure do know how devastating it is to be in a wreck with uninsured drivers. Most of the accidents around here these days involve suspended licenses, driving with no insurance (cause they can't get it), and DUIs but the perpetrators are invariably perfectly legal citizens, who don't have any qualms about continuing to use their vehicles once their license has been revoked. If the wreck doesn't kill them, they will often run from the scene or precipitate a police chase, further endangering everyone, rather than be caught once again.

There is also a growing number of folk who honestly just cannot make ends meet and insurance will be the first expense to be eliminated...they are the most defensive drivers on the road, limit time spent driving to the bare necessity, and live in constant fear of being pulled over and slapped with an outrageous ticket, which could render them homeless. You wouldn't want to hear how many I know who have found themselves unable to afford insurance - two income families, hard workers, law-abiding, but simply cannot see over their stacks of monthly bills.

But as I said originally, of the undocumented workers I'm acquainted with, I know of none who violate our state's laws on licensing, registration, or insurance...it's simply too risky, as they are usually the first to see flashing lights in their rearviews.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
157. You've finally understood why driver's licenses for all makes sense
Congratulations. (If you even get your own post.)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Wouldn't it be better to know who they are and who is here?
And to give them visas (especially if they are from a neighboring country?)

How do you "earn" it. Prove you know how to drive? Would you rather have a native born U.S. drunk driver on the road or a sober undocumented alien?

It is not a "privilege." A "privilege" implies that the government has the power to take it away or deny it even if you can drive, but just because they don't like you. If I can pass the driver's test, I have a RIGHT to the license.

And it can only be taken away if I engage in harmful behavior, like persistant drunk driving. To say it is a privilege implies the government can take it away because they deem that I am a Democrat and that liberals make bad drivers.

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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. what surprises me is that the republicans haven't said
"Yes, let them get one and it will have and rfid chip in it"
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good point
I wonder how it would spin with the NRA crowd?
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. OMG ILLLEGALLZZZ!!!!11111
That is all.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. It really bugs me when they call it a "privilege not a right."
It is a right if you pass the damned driver's test.

Driver's licenses are issues by states, they don't have to care if their residents are legal immigrants or not. It's part of the separation of powers. Immigration is the fed's problem, as the constitution says, if they fail to enforce the federal laws, the states don't have to help them.

The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is irrational immigration laws. If the states want the immigrants to be identified and to have licenses, that should be their prerogative.

People put their heads in the sand. Undocumented immigrants are people, and they're here. It is no use pretending they're not. And they're only trying to make a living. There are many worse things a person can do than just violate another country's irrational and insane immigration laws. Like start a war against a country that never had any chance of threatening yours.

I was recently in the U.K and they clearly had lots of immigrants. A country that small, an island, can surely "protect its borders." Immigrants are needed in Western societies; only the U.S. tries to pretend they are not needed but lets them in and to stay and then turns its nose up at them.

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I think most in the U.S. recognize that we need immigrants,
but we'd prefer if they came here legally and in a safe, orderly manner.

That is not too much to ask.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Exactly!
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
63. And we could facilitate that by not having such draconian immigration laws
But instead of targeting our screwed up immigration laws, Lou Dobbs worshipers demonize undocumented workers.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
109. If the laws were followed, the number of workers would dry up,
and employers...and the Republicans they pay for in Congress...would see that the laws need to change. As long as those employment needs are being met outside the law, there's no need to change the law.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
115. Exactly!
They would come in a legal and orderly manner if they could. We just make it impossible.

And using the DL to try to enforce these laws by attrition is even more unrealistic.

I don't get the big deal people have with it anyway. If someone knows how to drive, I don't care if they are on the road whether they are undocumented or not. I'd be a lot more worried about drunken drivers and negligent drivers. Lou Dobbs and his ilk are so obsessed they fail to see that the issue is relatively unimportant. We just need better laws.

I was recently in Britain and that country has a lot of immigrants, too. They have much better control of their borders I would think, since they are relatively small and an island to boot. So immigrants must be necessary to Western economies, where the birthrate is down. Yet the British don't seem to articulate a "crisis." They must have it under reasonable control by having reasonable laws that don't have to be enforced so often that a huge pool of people illegally there develops. This country just lets Lou Dobbs pull their chains, and Lou Dobbs has some sort of psychological or emotional problem that requires that the undocumented immigrants take the blame for every ill society has ever had.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
107. The problem is you are asking the wrong people.
The Feds have screwed this up, not the workers who are daily demonized.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
119. I had addressed that point already.
Our laws are just irrational. If we expect to enforce them, our heads are in the sand. The ICE would be the biggest government agency there is. They'd be after us all the time, not only to prove our own status but someone else's. Even so, they couldn't keep up with it. The problem with immigration laws is enforcement. Even if you can do it, it means deportation, and just taking someone back to Mexico doesn't mean they can't come back again.

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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Uh, it's maybe a 'privilege because the USSUPCt has ruled it as such? n/t
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. I'm with you.
I don't know where all these people get the idea that you have a "right" to drive. I'd like to see some backing for that mistaken notion.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
146. Yep. -nt
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. Any immigrant--regardless of legal status--should simply obtain
an International Driver's License from their home country before they come here.

Then they wouldn't have to bother with state licenses.

I think this is a non-issue. Much ado about nothing.

I had an IDL for the two years I lived in Argentina. Nothing to it, and it cost $15 or something like that.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. I have been told that the U.S. does not recognize
IDLs. I don't know if it is accurate.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
44. It's completely state-run.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 12:41 AM by superduperfarleft
Some states do, some states don't. And a permanent license has to be applied for (obviously tourists can rent a car, for instance, but someone who is living here has to obtain a license before they can legally drive or obtain insurance.)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
112. The REAL ID act probably interferes with that
There is an attempt to use the DL as a national ID card and therefore use the lack thereof as a way of getting undocumented immigrants to leave voluntarily because they can't do anything, as everything as anything comes to require a DL.

And the weird thing is that no one notices that no matter how many of those laws are made that are to try to get undocumented immigrants to leave by attrition, just because they are blocked every where they turn, never does seem to work. After the employer sanctions laws of 1986, where you have to prove your right to be in the U.S. in order to get a job, the number of undocuments immigrants increased.

It is just unrealistic dreaming to assume that undocumented immigrants will all go home because they can't get a DL. In theory they can't even get a job. Now you have cities trying to make it against the law to rent it to them (deputizing landlords, along with employers, to enforce these laws) - yet somehow, one imagines, it's still not going to work. It's all too much for the government to enforce and the border and the country are just too big.




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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
84. They do. I had to Google it, but yes, they do. n/t
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
51. That is EXACTLY what
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 02:30 AM by Raine
I have been thinking too. It seem like this driver's license thing is just another one of those red herrings to keep people all stirred up. x(

Edit: Spelling
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
156. "Nothing to it, and it cost $15 or something like that."
Was there ANY requirement to be able to read street and highway signs in Argentina? If there was a test, was the govt. willing to give you the test in your native tongue at no cost to you?
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #156
164. No, there's no test at all. My mom actually ordered it for me
since I was in Argentina at the time. She just went to AAA, paid the $15, filled out a form, and they mailed me the license a couple months later.

I guess the whole theory behind the IDL is that you already HAVE a license in your home country, so you already know how to drive. (Allegedly.)

Had I tried to get an Argentine driver's license instead--no, there most definitely would NOT have been any provisions made for me to take the test in English. In Argentina, like most countries in the world, you have to learn the official language.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
176. exactly
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. IT may have started out that way 100 yrs ago but it is necessity today
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
20. I guess I didn't phrase this very well
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 10:02 PM by tularetom
I'm not opposed to issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, I object to politicians acting like its some sort of gift from us to them. Of course if they are going to drive cars they should be subject to the same rules as any other driver. And they should be required to carry insurance as well.

So back to my original point - why do pundits and politicians act as though the granting of a drivers license to an illegal immigrant is some sort of magnanimous act. To my mind it is a public safety necessity.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's a privilege to pedestrians and other drivers that states bother to make sure people know how
to drive and are insured!
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
88. Aren't we lucky
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 12:41 PM by loyalsister
when public servants make smart public policy.
I would hope that we could consider these public safety measures to just be a matter of logic and common good, not to mention saving health care costs to the state.

That said, it seems that it follows that maximizing the number of insured and licensed motorists would be serve all drivers best.

Adults who have any access to a car and need to get somewhere are going to drive. We should protect ourselves.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. It can be a first step to recognition, inclusion and citizenship.
Immigrants living here, illegally or undocumented, should be given a first step to citizenship. They should be given licenses and be subject to the same requirements and rights to drive as any other citizen. They shouldn't drive with fear of being arrested or deported, that won't get us anywhere.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
26. What part of illegal don't you understand?
If someone is not supposed to be here in this country and is here illegally, where is the logic that a government entity should grant that person a legal document establishing their legitimacy?
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Wow, DU sure is progressive.
Snarf....
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. Why bother with borders, huh?
Fire our Border Patrol and let anyone come and go as they please?
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #53
74. Glenn Beck, is that you?
I don't have a problem with a discussion about immigration policy. I do have a problem with rightist non-sequitors.

"What part of illegal blah blah blah" sounds like something I'd hear on the Limbaugh show.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. Maybe there is some sound logic behind at least some of the laws of who can get in who can't?
Either this country has a say in separating the wheat from the sheaf or we don't. If we don't, then why bother with the expense of the Border Patrol? Why do we as citizens need passports to get back in? Or is that freedom to come & go when ever, how ever just for illegals?
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. It IS a privilege; it is NOT a right
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 10:26 PM by alarimer

It can be taken away for any number of reasons; mostly if you break the law or are unsafe on the roads. In fact, I think we do not take the privilege of driving seriously enough. Most driver's-ed classes are jokes. We allow people to talk on the phone (not in every state, true) while behind the wheel. It is far too difficult to take away someone's license if they are unsafe.

What makes you think they would get a driver's license even if it was offered? If I am here illegally, I am sure I don't want to give some government office my address.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. Illegal immigrants are not "free to drive all around the country."
You, too, could drive around without a license or insurance. And if you get pulled over, you, too, will pay the price.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. I don't give a rats toenail about people coming to this country
to work. Encourage those who want to drive to do so with a drivers license, because it ensures that road safety is tested. What I do care about, are those people we know are coming into this country to learn to fly and cause us trouble. Those are the people I don't want to be allowed in.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
30. Has anyone ever determined if the undocumented WANT or would GET
a DL if it were offered?

From all I've heard over the years, anyone who is in the US illegally won't sign anything or give any information for fear of being caught and deported. Why does everyone think they'd rush out to get a DL? That would be putting the identity finger smack dab on their head!

The other excuse I keep hearing is "then they can buy insurance." Are you all crazy? Certainly not all, but MANY don't make enough $$ to even ThINK about buying a car, let alone insurance on it!
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Perseid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. My mother, born in 1930
went to the General Store in her little town and bought a license for a quarter. That was it. She still drives, and has never in her life been involved in an accident or received one ticket.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Thank you for that bit of rationality to this thread...
People act like passing a test and showing "proper" ID makes someone a safe driver. Images of teenagers driving mom & dad's car with their friends keep coming to mind--scary. Taking a test does not make someone a safer driver, it simply means that they complied with the authorities. And to those worried about uninsured drivers, well, if people don't have the means to pay for insurance--regardless of their citizenship status--but need to drive, they will drive no matter what.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
61. Yes, in Minnesota during my parents' lifetimes, anyone could get a
drivers' license for a quarter, just by asking for one.

I don't know when testing was introduced, but it was after the 1930s, because my father bought his first car around 1932 without ever having had a driving lesson. He learned by trial and error.
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Solar_Power Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
33. ILLEGALS are here ILLEGALLY and have broken the LAWS of this country
Why can't politicians understand that?
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Some DU'rs here cant seem to understand it either.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. JAYWALKERS have broken the LAWS of this country!!!!
See, I can use capital letters too. Of course, it doesn't make my point (such as it is) more valid, it just makes me louder!!!!11111
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Perseid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I try never to use the argument that people are breaking the laws of the country
because there are obviously so many that are, in my mind, "wrong". Immigration laws, drug laws, taxation laws, laws for food vendors, laws regarding second hand smoke, laws regarding drinking alcohol (someone can die for their country, but can't have a beer?), laws almost to the point demanding NO BELLY LINT or jail for you.

Legislators legislate. It's what they do, but I have never believed they do it well, or that the system makes any sense. I'm even more of a throwback than a throwback of my generation, if that makes any sense.

Sense. Someone once wrote about common sense.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. That's my point.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 11:40 PM by superduperfarleft
We can discuss the issues surrounding the influx of Central American immigrants into this country, but it sort of shits on the entire conversation to simply refer to the almighty Law as if that's the end of the argument. It reminds me of fundies who justify their positions as "well the Bible says ____, therefore it is so."

on edit: and since the OP is full of misspelled words on a Saturday night, I'd be willing to bet this is nothing more than a drunken rant.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
103. I notice nobody ever notices that our government has interfered
with lawful elections in Latin America or that we have mounted proxy wars or that we have plain old had progressive leaders killed there because they wouldn't play ball with the corporations.

I guess we only care about people breaking our own laws, not the laws of other sovereign nations.

If there was justice in this world, every undocumented worker would get not only a driver's license but a Cadillac to drive home in and an assurance that our locusts would be locked out of their country.



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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
57. And, if they're caught, they pay the penalty.
Should people who break the immigration laws be treated differently?
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #35
64. jaywalkers have real SSN's
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #64
75. ILLLEGALZZZZ have ssn's
Real or not, they pay taxes into a system that they'll never benefit from. And I don't think the landscapers around my apartment complex are involved in credit card fraud.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #75
110. If they're using false SSNs, they're involved in identity theft.
How many more laws do they need to break before it starts to bother you?
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #110
123. If they're using false ssns, it's to get jobs.
You can't see the difference between using a false ssn to apply for credit card and using a false ssn just to get a job?
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. If they're using the SSN of someone who's alive then it is a problem
If someone other than myself used my SSN and got a job, then I'm on the hook for income taxes for that income.

That is a problem.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #126
133. So how often does that happen?
Do you know of a case where the IRS came after someone who's ssn was used by an illegal immigrant to get a job?
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. I've personally known someone that the IRS came after
It was a horror story. They had to prove to the IRS that it wasn't them and took over a year to clear up, after being fully audited. The IRS isn't quick to believe someone that it wasn't their income.

And they found this out after they filed their income taxes, they were due a refund and were sent a letter stating that they owned over $3000 to the IRS.

While in the end they didn't have to pay, they did go through the hassle of dealing with the IRS for over a year because of a stolen SSN.

I've also read other stories in the paper of where this has happened. It is a big deal if someone uses your SSN to get a job.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. I stand corrected.
That is definitely problematic.

Perhaps the answer is that they are provided with amnesty so that they can get jobs legitimately.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. Also the problem is
It's really easy to check a SSN. Where I work, I've personally seen the HR person call in a SSN and verify it. It's not hard. For instance, we had a guy who's number came back hinky. But it just took a phone call to clear it up. It had happened to him personally before and he's an American citizen born here. Businesses need to be cracked down on.

This whole DL debacle is a farce really. But people using fake or stolen SSN gets under my skin and no sympathy.

I haven't decided exactly how I feel about an "amnesty" for illegal immigrants.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #135
141. And it happens ALL the time.
I speak with illegals every week in my job, when I go to employers and talk to their employees about benefits.

Those guys tell me, straight up, "Mi nmero no es bueno." They've used someone else's number to get the job. If the SSA ever tracks down the number and sends a letter to the employer saying that the name and # don't match, the "undocumented" worker simply produces another stolen number, or he leaves that employer and goes to work someplace else.

And as the other poster mentioned, it can and does cause serious headaches, and grief for the person whose real number is being used.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #123
138. IVe been the victim of identity theft. Twice.
So, no. I don't see the difference. Do you have any idea what hell it is to deal with the IRS when someone has been using your SSN "to get a job", and in the process poured unearned money into one's SS account? Don't tell me this doesn't hurt anyone. It's just more dishonesty, and people who do it should be arrested and prosecuted.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Agreed, and that's what I stated as well
Thankfully I've never been a victim of identity theft, but I know what the hassle is like. The IRS isn't quick to believe that you didn't make that money.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. Yep. Making one's SS and IRS accounts match when someone
is using your SSN is a pain in the ass. Try telling the IRS that somehow you suddenly have twice the income you had the year before according to your SS contributions, but only listed half of that amount on your 1040.

Victimless crime my ass!!
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
47. Gee, uh, duh, because it IS a privilege NOT a right
Got that? A privilege NOT a right?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
48. To read some of these posts you'd think Jesus Christ HisSelf issued drivers licenses.
My own drivers license is a bloody damned nuisance and a badge of my failure as a steward of the earth's natural environment. Anyone who drives should have to suffer the same indignity of standing at line at the DMV and getting their mugshot and thumbprint taken like any common criminal. Driving a car is a crime, not a right.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
55. Are you saying we should all be able to drive without a license?
and operate a 1000-pound machine in public without verification of skills and ability.

I think anybody who demonstrates that ability should be given a licence - regardless of citizenship status. I mean, driving is pretty much the same wherever you go. You just need to adapt to variations in the rules, which isn't so tough. Except for in Italy. Those people are nuts.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
56. I don't think immigrants are free to drive without having a license
if they get stopped and don't have a license, they'll get arrested.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
60. Great post n/t
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
65. Driver's licenses are taken away for some interesting reasons.
Because it is, under the law, a privilege, not a right.

My son is fighting to get his driver's license back. His got taken away for non-payment of child support.

Except that he DID pay his child support. All the way up until the mother of the child was finally arrested for child abuse, and he took his child from her. While she was in jail, he moved to another state. He got a lawyer and won full custody of the child. The original state continued to try to collect child support for the jailed mother even while my son had custody. When he went to renew his license, there was a hold on it, pending payment of support for the 3 years he's already had custody.

He's been in contact with them regularly, from the very beginning. He has faxed custody papers, etc.. They ignored those contacts, and that information, and continued to demand payment. When they put the hold on his license, he got a lawyer. For a "nice" price. It's still been 6 months since the hold. They are "reviewing" the situation, and will someday decide whether he can have a driver's license again.

Meanwhile, he has a job to get to and a child to support. And a lawyer to pay.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
102. More evidence the license has more to do with oppressive government
than highway safety. How exactly does not paying child support affect one's skill level as a driver?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. It has nothing to do with it.
And, in this case, it was taken away from him for not paying child support to a child abuser who did not have custody of the child during the disputed time period. In other words, for child support that is NOT ACTUALLY OWED.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
66. The mexican woman who smashed my new car would have still smashed it w or w/o a D.L.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
155. You know something, it can't be great for good driving to keep scanning
for cops. I drove on a expired license once for about six months because we were poor. It was horrible and I'm lucky I didn't plow into anyone while I was checking the rearview mirror.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
173. IF she had a license, she might have also had insurance
Your loss.

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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
68. It's a privilege
that has to be earned.

One has to be of a certain age. One has to follow specific restrictions based on age, in many states, eyesight correction, and ability to drive specific vehicles like a motorcycle.

I am forbidden by law to drive an interstate commercial truck or a bus. It is a privilege granted to people who meet requirements that my medical condition makes me unable to fulfill.

If you abuse the privilege - get too many points on your license for speeding, drive drunk, get convicted of reckless endangerment while driving, etc. you lose it. Because it is NOT A RIGHT.
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
69. Why do we think any illegal immigrants would apply for it?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
70. You are just as free to drive without a license as any illegal immigrant is
You have chosen to comply with the law.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
71. Let's cut though the bullshit, shall we?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 10:17 AM by MindPilot
A driver's license has little and nothing to do with one's ability to drive or the granting of the much ballyhooed "privilege" to operate a private motor vehicle. If it were there would be much more comprehensive testing, training and re-certification. It would be more like holding a pilot's certificate.

The plain fact is a driver's license is your government ID card. If it was about your ability to drive they wouldn't give a shit about your current address, country of birth or what you look like; only your ability to take the wagon sideways around the skid pad without knocking over any cones.

Same goes for having license plates on your car. It's about being ID'd wherever you go. My pilot's license doesn't have my picture on it, or my address.

Funny that I have to go through all this licensing process to get back and forth to work, using this supposed deadly device--a motor vehicle--but if I want a firearm, all I have to do pretty much is wander into my local Wal-Mart.

Edit: typos
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
72. Because it IS a privilege, not a right
Show me where the Constitution gives the right to drive?
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. It doesn't give you the right to own a laptop or a chainsaw either
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 10:39 AM by MindPilot
Both are dangerous pieces of equipment that require some skill to operate.

In fact he Constitution doesn't grant ANY rights. The Constitution details how the government will function and through the BoR limits the POWER of government to take away the rights you have simply by virtue of being born.

I think the right to travel freely is implicit in the First and Fourth amendments.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. "Right" to travel
does not imply means.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. Nor does it imply ability.
But we are conflating the expertise required to operate a particular type of conveyance and the proof thereof with the possession of what is essentially an ID card. That is the point.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. And you still have the right to travel
Though, not a right to a driver's license.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. Actually a driver's license is more of a de facto requirement
than a right or a privilege. Even if you don't own a car, you need a license. It is your identification card.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. Yet you can get a photo ID card
that is NOT a driver's license.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. And you get that where? The DMV.
It is still an ID card and it comes from the same people who are supposed to be making sure I know what I'm doing when I stomp on the gas, not WHO I AM AND WHERE I CAME FROM.

It's an ID card, not a right, not a privilege, but a de facto REQUIREMENT.

Which is why this whole argument is silly. We act as if people who come from Mexico to find work don't know how to drive, but the REAL issue is coercing them show up at the DMV to get an ID card.

Do you think anyone is dumb enough to fall for it?
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #93
125. But, you can get a state ID card and not have a DL
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 07:12 PM by tammywammy
I had a friend's who's license was suspended and he still had ID. So, he'd still have ID that would allow on to a plane, etc.

edited to add: And he got around by walking, riding a bike, catching rides and paying for taxis. He also had to go on job interviews during this period, and yet he still did all that without a DL or driving a vehicle.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
77. Do you know how hard it is now to get a license in VA since 9/11 and our DMV employees sold them
to some of the hijackers? It's ridiculous WHEN you are a citizen. So, yes, I have a problem issuing them to illegals who can't prove who they are, where they live etc

Plus, once you have one in this country, most everything else is available to you. It's one of the recognized documents for a social security card, which will automatically given an illegal one of the two docs he needs.

My biggest problem is voter registration. Have a license? You can then register at the DMV for voter privileges.

No licenses for illegals. Period IMHO. Flame way.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
90. My point exactly.
The difficulties in getting a license after 9/11 doesn't mean they have made the standards of knowing how to drive more stringent; the focus is entirely on PROVING WHO YOU ARE, not if you can safely operate a motor vehicle.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
81. It's just not "illegals" who drive with no license or no insurance
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 11:29 AM by ikojo
Many people, born and raised in the good ole U S of A drive their cars while not possessing a driver's license or auto insurance. A co-worker's daughter was hit from behind by such a driver a few months ago.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #81
99. My best friend's daughter lost her license due to being
drunk (underage) and out at 3AM. (There is a curfew here)

They let her drive last night. :eyes:

And, oh, the drama it has created amongst her friends. I'm hiding out in GD where it's safe.

:rofl:
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. Your friend's daughter must be an illegal immigrant
If she had a LICENSE, that never would have happened. Oh, wait. Never mind.

In case it's necessary: :sarcasm:
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
86. We could have a special section devoted to threads based on false premises. They're very popular.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
87. All of us hispanics are illegal immigrants, apparently.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 12:35 PM by Evoman
I want to say a big fuck you to all the asshole racists in this thread who think they can tell if someone is illegal by the colour of their skin. I've always been a big fan of DU and love most of the people here but I'm frankly getting tired of all the racist bullshit.

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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. Obviously.
There are no Canadians, Russians, Brits, Italians or Germans who have ever driven without a license or insurance. But since they are white, it not quite so important to America's safety that they be able to answer the "are your papers in order?" question.

It shouldn't necessary but: :sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. I've been asked if I am "legal" here.
I was also once accused of hiring undocumented workers with the icing being the wish that I would get busted and go to jail. :crazy:

Undocumented workers are natural allies of progressives. But in this horrendous climate of nationalism that is sweeping this country, that gets lost entirely.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. I hope you whipped out your California driver's license
and slapped them silly with it. :D
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. Never underestimate the power of the Driver's License.
:)
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #104
114. I frequently use mine to fend off evil spirits, control the weather,
turn lead into gold, cure ED and buy overpriced California real estate.

I think the DMV has finally dropped it's requirement to report erections lasting longer than four hours.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #114
142. It's your license to buy booze and check into a cheap motel and have sex.
Or have sex in a car. That's what this is all about, don't you know...

We can't have "illegal aliens" having illegal alien sex in our God Blessed Homeland, can we?
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
94. The only place people should be able to check an immigrant's status
is by checking employers and making sure everyone has an I-9. If people want to go after undocumented workers, then they need to fine people who employ them. But leave the people alone. There are many places where you need transportation just to get food. Not every place in the US has adequate public transportation. People have to drive, they have to eat, and they have to have someplace to live. Take away employment opportunities, but don't make people's lives hell and destroy families.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
113. Anohter Wedge Issue...
First...these people are "undocumented"...not "illegal aliens". They are human beings who aren't here for the food, weather or cause Americans are such nice people. They provide labor that many in this country take for granted, they end up paying retail and other taxes through their work and have benefited many of those who want to "round 'em up". Little, if anything, is ever said about those who really benefit (and exploit) these people...the companies that hire these people over American (spelt UNION) labor or use them to avoid paying benefits and taxes (now whose the real tax cheats here???) and dumping these people on the local social systems to provide medical and other services.

That said...a drivers license isn't citizenship. Never has been...never will be. While it can be used as identification, the license alone isn't a birth certificate or SSN card or other form of documentation that employers are required to see before they hire someone. However, it is a matter of public safety that those who get behind the wheel of car, no matter who, both are competent to operate a vehicle and are properly covered/identified. So its safer to have "illegals" driving unknown or unseen on our streets than it is to at least know who they are and have a way to have these people be held both responsible and accountable when they get behind a wheel?

A drivers license isn't what these people come across the border for...it's the money. Want to cut down on this "problem" then go after those who hire the undocumented workers and fine them $10,000 per worker per day...then require American corporations that operate in Mexico to offer benefits and a living wage to their employees...making it worth their while to stay in Mexico rather than to come here.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #113
122. I was going to make a pun on "wedge", but I agree too much with what you said.
In my mind it makes sense to "document" these people -- especially it should be documented that they know how to drive a car and that they know what US traffic laws are. Isn't that how one gets a driver's license? That's how I got mine -- I had to take a written test (and I don't care how many languages the DMV prints the test in) and I had to take a driving test. I think Gov. Richardson has it right on the issue of public safety.

Beyond that, it would definitely make law enforcement sense to have photos and fingerprints on file of as many people as possible. *That's* what the wedge-issue people think is a privilege? It doesn't matter if some of them make up a name -- fingerprints don't lie.

*Some people* deserve a wedgie all right. (There, I got to use my pun.)

Hekate
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SharkSquid Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. Documented does not = legal n/t
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Well, that was indeed my point, or one of them. Thank you for pointing it out. nt
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
127. because it IS a privilege, and NOT a right.
sheesh...people today... :eyes:
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #127
160. Beat me to it.
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SharkSquid Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
128. Hahahah My wife is a Criminal Defense Attorney
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 07:45 PM by SharkSquid
And sometimes (I know its terrible) we play the "Who does is driving on a suspended?" game in the car. Occasionally we speculate if they have a gun/drugs as well.

Alot of people drive with no license (anyone working the misdemenor division of a court will tell you) If someone trys to get a license as an illegal immigrant = deported.
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trayfoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
131. Illegal Immigrants
should NOT be allowed ANY privileges or benefits of life in the U.S. Sorry, but it is the "illegal" part that gets my goat!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
163. Foreign citizens in the US use their own licenses plus International Driving Permit, no?
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
165. It is a privlidge
Thats why you need to pass a test to have one. If its about rights and freedoms you get them just by being alive.

"Are these people so fucking dumb that they believe no one who lacks a license is going to drive?"

Are we so dumb to believe all people will obey the speed limit, drive only when sober, have insurance, not run red lights, not pass on the left? Yet we still regulate what is and is not ok when it comes to driving.

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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
166. And those lines, traffic lights & signs? Just suggestions.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
167. implicit in all of this debate seems to be a bullshit assumption
that someone from south of our border doesn't know how to drive. Or that they are substantially less responsible than the good folks in the USA who of course ALWAYS obey all the traffic laws and NEVER drive without insurance.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
168. A driver's license is a privilege. The point is, it's not a RIGHT.
People are huge asshats, and they suck. They need to realize this...
Duckie
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
169. We belong to Farmer Jones' flock. Farmer Smith's flock cannot be issued our tags.
Especially the brown sheep from the south.

Baaaaaaaaaa.



It is a pain in the ass to be in an accident with any unlicensed driver, especially an undocumented immigrant. Anybody who can pass the test should be able to get a drivers license, and the DMV should be completely blind to immigration status, and it's records shielded from whatever fuckup agency claims to be protecting our borders.

It has always been fascist bullshit to equate driving with some sort of national identity. If our government wants us to have internal passports (Papers Please!) the might as well fucking say so.

No part of my personal identity is wrapped up in either my drivers license or my car. I don't give a shit about cars, and it is bloody irritating to me that I have to have both a car and a national identity card too.

I will be happy when this perverse car culture dies, and we Americans can remember once again what it was like to be free.

Being confined to parking lots and roads and encumbered with a national identity card that you must present to officers of the state whenever they find some slightest reason to pull you over is no kind of freedom at all.
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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
170. You would think the gov't would want to keep a record of unrecorded people.
Now I am not necessarily for letting undocumented workers get licenses, I mean they arent citizens and do not have a SS#, birth certificate etc. which are necessary when getting a license but at the same time I do see the need for it from a public safety standpoint. Still on the fence about this one.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. I was rear-ended by a guy who did not have license, insurance and got stiffed
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 07:34 PM by Cronus Protagonist
The guy who rear-ended me got out of his car, could not speak a word of English, had no license, no ID, no registration, had his 1.5 year old kid in the passenger seat without a safety seat and gave me a cell phone number which he cut off by the time I got home.

While I was taking down his VIN number, the only and sole means to identify anyone related to the accident, a cop car drove by and I thought about flagging them down for a split second. I chose not to because I didn't want the little kid to lose her dad, her family car and to have a world of hurt trying to pay huge fines and such like. And I thought the guy just might, just might make good on the accident.

He not only got into the country illegally, which is one issue, but completly unrelated to his immigration status, he crashed into my car and I wouldn't have been at a loss if he were licensed and insured.

Now I have a $500 repair bill just so some nutjobs can feel happy about not letting the guy have car insurance because he sneaked into the country.

May the same thing happen to all the people on here who support these dumb-ass no-license campaigns of the xenophobic right wing fuckwits. Maybe then they'll change their minds.

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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #172
175. What shitty ass cops.
In Bama cops stop for anything, but I agree with you, and that sucks.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #172
177. So, in order of importance (in my view), he broke...
... the traffic law (by following too closely and failing to stop), the child safety seat law (not only says a lot about how much he cares for his kid, but also could have got him pulled over and ticketed), the vehicle registration law, the driving without insurance law, the driving without a license law, and the immigration laws. Six at once... (AND he wasn't even honest enough to give you good contact info.)

Why would anyone doubt that all illegals are law-abiding people? :sarcasm:
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
171. They're not FREE to do so
they do so in violation of the law, and if caught will be cited for driving without a license or insurance.


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