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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:01 PM
Original message
The Final Nail in America's Coffin:
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 09:05 PM by Texas Explorer
HR 1955 RFS


110th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 1955

←→IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES


October 24, 2007

Received; read twice and referred to the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


AN ACT
To prevent homegrown terrorism, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the

`Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007'

.


SEC. 2. PREVENTION OF VIOLENT RADICALIZATION AND HOMEGROWN TERRORISM.

(a) In General- Title VIII of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C. 361 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new subtitle:


`Subtitle J--Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism

`SEC. 899A. DEFINITIONS.

`For purposes of this subtitle:

`(1) COMMISSION- The term `Commission' means the National Commission on the Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism established under section 899C.

`(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.

`(3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM- The term `homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

`(4) IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE- The term `ideologically based violence' means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual's political, religious, or social beliefs.



`SEC. 899B. FINDINGS.

`The Congress finds the following:

`(1) The development and implementation of methods and processes that can be utilized to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence in the United States is critical to combating domestic terrorism.

`(2) The promotion of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence exists in the United States and poses a threat to homeland security.

`(3) The Internet has aided in facilitating violent radicalization, ideologically based violence, and the homegrown terrorism process in the United States by providing access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda to United States citizens.

`(4) While the United States must continue its vigilant efforts to combat international terrorism, it must also strengthen efforts to combat the threat posed by homegrown terrorists based and operating within the United States.

`(5) Understanding the motivational factors that lead to violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence is a vital step toward eradicating these threats in the United States.

`(6) Preventing the potential rise of self radicalized, unaffiliated terrorists domestically cannot be easily accomplished solely through traditional Federal intelligence or law enforcement efforts, and can benefit from the incorporation of State and local efforts.

`(7) Individuals prone to violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence span all races, ethnicities, and religious beliefs, and individuals should not be targeted based solely on race, ethnicity, or religion.

`(8) Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

`(9) Certain governments, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia have significant experience with homegrown terrorism and the United States can benefit from lessons learned by those nations.


`SEC. 899C. NATIONAL COMMISSION ON THE PREVENTION OF VIOLENT RADICALIZATION AND IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE.

`(a) Establishment- There is established within the legislative branch of the Government the National Commission on the Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism.

`(b) Purpose- The purposes of the Commission are the following:

`(1) Examine and report upon the facts and causes of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence in the United States, including United States connections to non-United States persons and networks, violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence in prison, individual or `lone wolf' violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence, and other faces of the phenomena of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence that the Commission considers important.

`(2) Build upon and bring together the work of other entities and avoid unnecessary duplication, by reviewing the findings, conclusions, and recommendations of--

`(A) the Center of Excellence established or designated under section 899D, and other academic work, as appropriate;

`(B) Federal, State, local, or tribal studies of, reviews of, and experiences with violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence; and

`(C) foreign government studies of, reviews of, and experiences with violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence.

`(c) Composition of Commission- The Commission shall be composed of 10 members appointed for the life of the Commission, of whom--

`(1) one member shall be appointed by the President from among officers or employees of the executive branch and private citizens of the United States;

`(2) one member shall be appointed by the Secretary;

`(3) one member shall be appointed by the majority leader of the Senate;

`(4) one member shall be appointed by the minority leader of the Senate;

`(5) one member shall be appointed by the Speaker of the House of Representatives;

`(6) one member shall be appointed by the minority leader of the House of Representatives;

`(7) one member shall be appointed by the Chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security of the House of Representatives;

`(8) one member shall be appointed by the ranking minority member of the Committee on Homeland Security of the House of Representatives;

`(9) one member shall be appointed by the Chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs of the Senate; and

`(10) one member shall be appointed by the ranking minority member of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs of the Senate.

`(d) Chair and Vice Chair- The Commission shall elect a Chair and a Vice Chair from among its members.

`(e) Qualifications- Individuals shall be selected for appointment to the Commission solely on the basis of their professional qualifications, achievements, public stature, experience, and expertise in relevant fields, including, but not limited to, behavioral science, constitutional law, corrections, counterterrorism, cultural anthropology, education, information technology, intelligence, juvenile justice, local law enforcement, organized crime, Islam and other world religions, sociology, or terrorism.

`(f) Deadline for Appointment- All members of the Commission shall be appointed no later than 60 days after the date of enactment of this subtitle.

`(g) Quorum and Meetings- The Commission shall meet and begin the operations of the Commission not later than 30 days after the date on which all members have been appointed or, if such meeting cannot be mutually agreed upon, on a date designated by the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Each subsequent meeting shall occur upon the call of the Chair or a majority of its members. A majority of the members of the Commission shall constitute a quorum, but a lesser number may hold meetings.

`(h) Authority of Individuals to Act for Commission- Any member of the Commission may, if authorized by the Commission, take any action that the Commission is authorized to take under this Act.

`(i) Powers of Commission- The powers of the Commission shall be as follows:

`(1) IN GENERAL-

`(A) HEARINGS AND EVIDENCE- The Commission or, on the authority of the Commission, any subcommittee or member thereof, may, for the purpose of carrying out this section, hold hearings and sit and act at such times and places, take such testimony, receive such evidence, and administer such oaths as the Commission considers advisable to carry out its duties.

`(B) CONTRACTING- The Commission may, to such extent and in such amounts as are provided in appropriation Acts, enter into contracts to enable the Commission to discharge its duties under this section.

`(2) INFORMATION FROM FEDERAL AGENCIES-

`(A) IN GENERAL- The Commission may request directly from any executive department, bureau, agency, board, commission, office, independent establishment, or instrumentality of the Government, information, suggestions, estimates, and statistics for the purposes of this section. The head of each such department, bureau, agency, board, commission, office, independent establishment, or instrumentality shall, to the extent practicable and authorized by law, furnish such information, suggestions, estimates, and statistics directly to the Commission, upon request made by the Chair of the Commission, by the chair of any subcommittee created by a majority of the Commission, or by any member designated by a majority of the Commission.

`(B) RECEIPT, HANDLING, STORAGE, AND DISSEMINATION- The Committee and its staff shall receive, handle, store, and disseminate information in a manner consistent with the operative statutes, regulations, and Executive orders that govern the handling, storage, and dissemination of such information at the department, bureau, agency, board, commission, office, independent establishment, or instrumentality that responds to the request.

`(j) Assistance From Federal Agencies-

`(1) GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION- The Administrator of General Services shall provide to the Commission on a reimbursable basis administrative support and other services for the performance of the Commission's functions.

`(2) OTHER DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES- In addition to the assistance required under paragraph (1), departments and agencies of the United States may provide to the Commission such services, funds, facilities, and staff as they may determine advisable and as may be authorized by law.

`(k) Postal Services- The Commission may use the United States mails in the same manner and under the same conditions as departments and agencies of the United States.

`(l) Nonapplicability of Federal Advisory Committee Act- The Federal Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) shall not apply to the Commission.

`(m) Public Meetings-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The Commission shall hold public hearings and meetings to the extent appropriate.

`(2) PROTECTION OF INFORMATION- Any public hearings of the Commission shall be conducted in a manner consistent with the protection of information provided to or developed for or by the Commission as required by any applicable statute, regulation, or Executive order including subsection (i)(2)(B).

`(n) Staff of Commission-

`(1) APPOINTMENT AND COMPENSATION- The Chair of the Commission, in consultation with the Vice Chair and in accordance with rules adopted by the Commission, may appoint and fix the compensation of a staff director and such other personnel as may be necessary to enable the Commission to carry out its functions, without regard to the provisions of title 5, United States Code, governing appointments in the competitive service, and without regard to the provisions of chapter 51 and subchapter III of chapter 53 of such title relating to classification and General Schedule pay rates, except that no rate of pay fixed under this subsection may exceed the maximum rate of pay for GS-15 under the General Schedule.

`(2) STAFF EXPERTISE- Individuals shall be selected for appointment as staff of the Commission on the basis of their expertise in one or more of the fields referred to in subsection (e).

`(3) PERSONNEL AS FEDERAL EMPLOYEES-

`(A) IN GENERAL- The executive director and any employees of the Commission shall be employees under section 2105 of title 5, United States Code, for purposes of chapters 63, 81, 83, 84, 85, 87, 89, and 90 of that title.

`(B) MEMBERS OF COMMISSION- Subparagraph (A) shall not be construed to apply to members of the Commission.

`(4) DETAILEES- Any Federal Government employee may be detailed to the Commission without reimbursement from the Commission, and during such detail shall retain the rights, status, and privileges of his or her regular employment without interruption.

`(5) CONSULTANT SERVICES- The Commission may procure the services of experts and consultants in accordance with section 3109 of title 5, United States Code, but at rates not to exceed the daily rate paid a person occupying a position at level IV of the Executive Schedule under section 5315 of title 5, United States Code.

`(6) EMPHASIS ON SECURITY CLEARANCES- The Commission shall make it a priority to hire as employees and retain as contractors and detailees individuals otherwise authorized by this section who have active security clearances.

`(o) Commission Personnel Matters-

`(1) COMPENSATION OF MEMBERS- Each member of the Commission who is not an employee of the government shall be compensated at a rate not to exceed the daily equivalent of the annual rate of basic pay in effect for a position at level IV of the Executive Schedule under section 5315 of title 5, United States Code, for each day during which that member is engaged in the actual performance of the duties of the Commission.

`(2) TRAVEL EXPENSES- While away from their homes or regular places of business in the performance of services for the Commission, members of the Commission shall be allowed travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of subsistence, at rates authorized for employees of agencies under subchapter I of chapter 57 of title 5, United States Code, while away from their homes or regular places of business in the performance of services for the Commission.

`(3) TRAVEL ON ARMED FORCES CONVEYANCES- Members and personnel of the Commission may travel on aircraft, vehicles, or other conveyances of the Armed Forces of the United States when such travel is necessary in the performance of a duty of the Commission, unless the cost of commercial transportation is less expensive.

`(4) TREATMENT OF SERVICE FOR PURPOSES OF RETIREMENT BENEFITS- A member of the Commission who is an annuitant otherwise covered by section 8344 or 8468 of title 5, United States Code, by reason of membership on the Commission shall not be subject to the provisions of such section with respect to membership on the Commission.

`(5) VACANCIES- A vacancy on the Commission shall not affect its powers and shall be filled in the manner in which the original appointment was made. The appointment of the replacement member shall be made not later than 60 days after the date on which the vacancy occurs.

`(p) Security Clearances- The heads of appropriate departments and agencies of the executive branch shall cooperate with the Commission to expeditiously provide Commission members and staff with appropriate security clearances to the extent possible under applicable procedures and requirements.

`(q) Reports-

`(1) FINAL REPORT- Not later than 18 months after the date on which the Commission first meets, the Commission shall submit to the President and Congress a final report of its findings and conclusions, legislative recommendations for immediate and long-term countermeasures to violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence, and measures that can be taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence from developing and spreading within the United States, and any final recommendations for any additional grant programs to support these purposes. The report may also be accompanied by a classified annex.

`(2) INTERIM REPORTS- The Commission shall submit to the President and Congress--

`(A) by not later than 6 months after the date on which the Commission first meets, a first interim report on--

`(i) its findings and conclusions and legislative recommendations for the purposes described in paragraph (1); and

`(ii) its recommendations on the feasibility of a grant program established and administered by the Secretary for the purpose of preventing, disrupting, and mitigating the effects of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and, if such a program is feasible, recommendations on how grant funds should be used and administered; and

`(B) by not later than 6 months after the date on which the Commission submits the interim report under subparagraph (A), a second interim report on such matters.

`(3) INDIVIDUAL OR DISSENTING VIEWS- Each member of the Commission may include in each report under this subsection the individual additional or dissenting views of the member.

`(4) PUBLIC AVAILABILITY- The Commission shall release a public version of each report required under this subsection.

`(r) Availability of Funding- Amounts made available to the Commission to carry out this section shall remain available until the earlier of the expenditure of the amounts or the termination of the Commission.

`(s) Termination of Commission- The Commission shall terminate 30 days after the date on which the Commission submits its final report.


`SEC. 899D. CENTER OF EXCELLENCE FOR THE STUDY OF VIOLENT RADICALIZATION AND HOMEGROWN TERRORISM IN THE UNITED STATES.

`(a) Establishment- The Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States (hereinafter referred to as `Center') following the merit-review processes and procedures and other limitations that have been previously established for selecting and supporting University Programs Centers of Excellence. The Center shall assist Federal, State, local and tribal homeland security officials through training, education, and research in preventing violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in the United States. In carrying out this section, the Secretary may choose to either create a new Center designed exclusively for the purpose stated herein or identify and expand an existing Department of Homeland Security Center of Excellence so that a working group is exclusively designated within the existing Center of Excellence to achieve the purpose set forth in subsection (b).

`(b) Purpose- It shall be the purpose of the Center to study the social, criminal, political, psychological, and economic roots of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in the United States and methods that can be utilized by Federal, State, local, and tribal homeland security officials to mitigate violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism.


`(c) Activities- In carrying out this section, the Center shall--

`(1) contribute to the establishment of training, written materials, information, analytical assistance and professional resources to aid in combating violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism;

`(2) utilize theories, methods and data from the social and behavioral sciences to better understand the origins, dynamics, and social and psychological aspects of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism;

`(3) conduct research on the motivational factors that lead to violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism; and

`(4) coordinate with other academic institutions studying the effects of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism where appropriate.


`SEC. 899E. PREVENTING VIOLENT RADICALIZATION AND HOMEGROWN TERRORISM THROUGH INTERNATIONAL COOPERATIVE EFFORTS.

`(a) International Effort- The Secretary shall, in cooperation with the Department of State, the Attorney General, and other Federal Government entities, as appropriate, conduct a survey of methodologies implemented by foreign nations to prevent violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in their respective nations.

`(b) Implementation- To the extent that methodologies are permissible under the Constitution, the Secretary shall use the results of the survey as an aid in developing, in consultation with the Attorney General, a national policy in the United States on addressing radicalization and homegrown terrorism.

`(c) Reports to Congress- The Secretary shall submit a report to Congress that provides--

`(1) a brief description of the foreign partners participating in the survey; and

`(2) a description of lessons learned from the results of the survey and recommendations implemented through this international outreach.


`SEC. 899F. PROTECTING CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES WHILE PREVENTING IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE AND HOMEGROWN TERRORISM.

`(a) In General- The Department of Homeland Security's efforts to prevent ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism as described herein shall not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

`(b) Commitment to Racial Neutrality- The Secretary shall ensure that the activities and operations of the entities created by this subtitle are in compliance with the Department of Homeland Security's commitment to racial neutrality.

`(c) Auditing Mechanism- The Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Officer of the Department of Homeland Security shall develop and implement an auditing mechanism to ensure that compliance with this subtitle does not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of any racial, ethnic, or religious group, and shall include the results of audits under such mechanism in its annual report to Congress required under section 705.'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of contents in section 1(b) of such Act is amended by inserting at the end of the items relating to title VIII the following:


`Subtitle J--Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism

`Sec. 899A. Definitions.

`Sec. 899B. Findings.

`Sec. 899C. National Commission on the Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Ideologically Based Violence.

`Sec. 899D. Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States.

`Sec. 899E. Preventing violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism through international cooperative efforts.

`Sec. 899F. Protecting civil rights and civil liberties while preventing ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism.'.

Passed the House of Representatives October 23, 2007.

Attest:

LORRAINE C. MILLER


The Constitutional right of the People to think, to feel, to protest, to revolt, to replace their government, or to seek the truth is just one Senate vote away from becoming null and void.

RIP, America.

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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Where have we heard this before?
Ah, yes, in 1933
The formal name of the Enabling Act was Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich ("Law to Remedy the Distress of the People and the Nation").
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Sounds better in the original German. (nt)
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wake.up.america Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Believe me, Germany today would have nothing to do with such a document.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. True. I just hope we don't have to follow their path to sanity in all its...
...fullness. It would be nice to think we can look at their history and stop repeating it! Stop now!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. It was meant to be a joke -- it's a Molly Ivins quote. (nt)
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
128. Bestimmt.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #128
139. Ha! Snuck in a comment when I wasn't looking! In German(?) no less.
FreeTranslation.com (German to English) gave me a "gisted" translation: "Determines".

I think you are trying to hurt my brain. :P

sw

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #139
142. Ja, deutsch.
Colloquially, it's something like "to be sure," "certainly," "naturally."
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
54. May a virulent pox be visited upon all those who would vote to unconstitutionally eviscerate the
Constitution of the United States by legislative, executive, or judicial fiat and may that pox remain upon them all the rest of the days of their lives and may all those who support, enable, or shill for this eviseration of the Constitution also be forever so visited by this virulent pox.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
117. Sorry, no disease is coming to save us . . .
. . . if this passes, we'll have to take up arms like our forefathers.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. k & r
Dark days indeed ahead if it goes through.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
100. Taking bets it will ...
As soon as the economy collapses there's going to such social upheaval that they'll need something like this to quell dessent and fill the detention camps that Halliburton has build across this country.

The New World Order is upon us.

Four things to investigate: Bilderberg Group - Gen. Smedley Butler - Project for the New American Century - Norman Dodd http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7373201...

View these and you'll understand why I'm taking bets.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is this ironic or what?
I sense more than just a little that this definition could be used to describe our cabal in the White House.

"The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change."
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Orwell:
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 09:14 PM by Texas Explorer
Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten. Already, in the Eleventh Edition, we're not far from that point. But the process will still be continuing long after you and I are dead. Every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller. Even now, of course, there's no reason or excuse for committing thoughtcrime. It's merely a question of self-discipline, reality-control. But in the end there won't be any need even for that. The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect. Newspeak is Ingsoc and Ingsoc is Newspeak,' he added with a sort of mystical satisfaction. 'Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now? - George Orwell, 1984


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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'll just copy and paste my own words...
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 09:20 PM by Cerridwen
...helps us to forget the creeping legalities which the populace approved to insure their safety.

<snip>

...fearful that the smallest grimace or the most innocuously spoken word will be all the evidence needed to detain and imprison a person and destroy their family; the state-run media ridiculing and naming as guilty or guilty by association all those persons who do not smile in the state-approved way. All the while wondering how they got from punishing the criminals and the ne'er-do-wells to being suspect and criminal themselves.

<snip>

We whoop and holler in appreciation as dangerous criminals are caught and imprisoned or put to death accepting at face value the truth as reported by our objective media.



"planned use", "threatened use", "social change".

I'm so fucking glad it's not fascism otherwise I might be concerned.



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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
95. You used "THE 'F' WORD"!!1!1!
You are a "violent, radacalized, homegrown terrerist"!!1!

You must be prevented from spreading your vicious, hate filled, messages!!

How dare you imply that our beneficent and glorious leaders would do anything that might be detrimental to the well-being of the flock?!? It is people like you that force the good people of this country to live their lives in fear!





































Is this really necessary? :sarcasm:



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toadzilla Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. scary.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. It won't be too long before criticism of the U.S. government..
...by anyone on U.S. soil won't be a safe thing to do. Never thought I'd live to see that.
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm not paying much attention to DU these days
because it appears the whole 'American Democracy' project is over. When I started here, it seemed we were dealing with an aberration in America's history. I don't know if I was boldly ignorant or if the circumstances did not require the defeatism I feel now. In either case, it has now become clear that the regime occupying the USA is no anomaly, it is what the powers that be desire, and no amount of populist effort will change that. This bill is further proof.

RIP, America, indeed.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Your feelings of defeat are quite understable...
...but this empire cannot stand indefinitely without the willful cooperation of the masses -- when enough people realize that our current political system is but an illusion, a movement will begin to coalesce, small at first, but sure to grow over time.

Will we see and participate in it in our lifetimes? Who knows, but don't give up hope. These criminal thugs have great resources, but they don't, and never will, have the single most important element of a stable government: the people's willful consent. And the numbers get worse for them every day -- it doesn't take an historical scholar to know the long term ramifications. They know the ramifications too, which is what will make them so dangerous over the near term.

Good luck to you if your giving up on the DU community for a while -- but don't give up hope, it's about all most of us have left right now, and a certain power, if for nothing else but survival, can most certainly be derived from it.
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Great post!
:thumbsup:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. I had a conversation last week about
how to set up networks of like minded people if/when the ability to network over the internet goes away. I was never paranoid like this before. Defiant, angry, energized - now I'm scared and watching and waiting and trying to figure out plan B. I never, ever, even when Kerry did what he did, felt this scared, this impotent. Well, maybe this impotent, but the rage kept me from seeing it.
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
57. It could be used against THEM
with so many D co-sponsors
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
62. Doesn't D/U have a yahoo group if the Government shuts down this site?
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. .......
the DU panic room here ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DUPanicRoom /

I've made the comment quite a few times in this last year that 'the day is coming when the Democratic Underground will not just be an internet site.' Peace.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #62
84. why shut down what they have already controlled and co-opted.
they will shut down what they know they don't and cant control.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #62
112. Yes, but what do those two things have in common?
I'm talking about what it would take to set up resistance without the internet. It's been done before and we need to redevelop the skill, I think.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
82. In 7 years the country has been completely turned around, inside out --- and tortured --- !!!
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
116. My brother and I had a similar conversation last week.
We were wondering how people will be able to communicate on a larger scale after they make message boards and such illegal. When it happens, it will be quick, quiet and in the middle of the night and with no coverage. We will just wake up one day and go, hey...what happened to the internet. We will find out how to network without the internet but it wont be until it all unfolds because if you spoke of it now, they would just work on making it illegal also. I seem to hear something once a week that makes me shake my head and wonder how they get away with what they are doing without the general population having a clue. The information is out there but I guess everyone is so busy trying to survive and provide for their families that they never have the time or the will, to look for the negative truth.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #116
132. Trying to survive
and being anesthetized by Dancing With The Stars and Desperate Housewives. Our bread and circuses come out of flat screen TVs these days.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
75. From your own pen, Mr. Jefferson:
"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt...If the game runs sometime against us at home, we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."


:cry:

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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
130. Thanks
I have so little hope for the big picture, though, that I am choosing to keep my piehole generally shut rather than be a downer for people like you who still have it.

Cheers
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. That's my point of view too
I'm more than a little scared.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
81. Where are you going---????
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #81
131. Cascadia
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't tell me this is going to be used against the ae911truth group?!

If anything, it should be used against homegrown terrorist enablers like Ann Coulter, Bill Oh'really, Pat Robertson, and various right wingnut groups, including those that advocate the downfall of the United States - like Fred Phelps!
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Sponsor: Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA)
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 09:48 PM by Emit
Cosponsors (as of 2007-10-24)
Rep. Christopher Carney (D-PA)
Del. Donna Christensen (D-VI)
Rep. Yvette Clarke (D-NY)
Rep. Charles Dent (R-PA)
Rep. Norman Dicks (D-WA)
Rep. Al Green (D-TX)
Rep. James Langevin (D-RI)
Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA)
Rep. Nita Lowey (D-NY)
Rep. Daniel Lungren (R-CA)
Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-CO)
Rep. Ted Poe (R-TX)
Rep. Dave Reichert (R-WA)
Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS)


Status: Introduced Apr 19, 2007
* Scheduled for Debate Aug 1, 2007
* Passed House (details) Oct 23, 2007
Voted on in Senate -
Signed by President -

This bill has been passed in the House. The bill now goes on to be voted on in the Senate. (Last Updated: Oct 23, 2007)
Last Action: Oct 23, 2007: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill, as amended Agreed to by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 404 - 6 (Roll no. 993).
Show All Related Votes

Votes on Passage
Oct 23, 2007: This bill passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The vote was held under a suspension of the rules to cut debate short and pass the bill, needing a two-thirds majority. The totals were 404 Ayes, 6 Nays, 22 Present/Not Voting.


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's 10 Democratic co-sponsors and 4 Repubs co-sponsors, with a Dem sponsor
What's up with that? :shrug:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You might want to check out this thread....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

my feeling is that this has to do with anti-Semitism being stirred up by those who want to stir things up.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
67. Thanks, AntiFascist.
I'll check it out.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Zoe Lofgren is my Rep.... WTF???
My head just exploded - again!
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. Kucinich voted Nay
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
90. Don't normally laud Repukes, but Jeff Flake is a good man
and shows his stuff with his nay vote as well.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
79. I had a favorable opinion of Jane Harman . . . she spoke against TORTURE . . . !! ???
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usaftmo Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. I thought the final nail in America's coffin
was when shrub hijacked the Florida vote in 2000.
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Californian Dreamer Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. That was when the coffin closed
The rest have been the nails to hold it shut.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bye bye 911 truth. Bye bye 911 dungeon...
:scared:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
47. Well then at least one good thing will come of this piece of legislation. n/t
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
55. NOTHING Good comes from This
unless you are an authoritarian who doesn't feel free speech is important.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #47
73. Yes: It's important that we immediately quash all free speech with which we disagree
Look, pal, I don't know what part of the Constitution you are missing, but saying that kind of shit pisses me off.

I don't believe in a lot of the stuff that's posted in the forums, but as Voltaire is alleged to have said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Whenever someone cheers the silencing of someone's voice, another part of our freedom dies.

Seriously. Rethink your position.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
87. So you enjoy being ignorant and uniformed? nt
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
124. LOL! There's always a silver lining, no matter how black the cloud. n/t
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
126. what a lovely sentiment..
at first they came for the 911 truthers, but i didn't give two shits...
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
63. Exactly, I expect the Dungeon to be shut soon.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
88. Are you happy about that? Do you want to live in a 1984 world? nt
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I post in the Dungeon often, if this bill passes this whole site is in jeopardy
not just the Dungeon.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. And we are in jeopardy too, aren't we?
:scared:
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. THEY can frame it however they want....
But changes to the Constitution require far more serious thought than they're giving this POS.

We'd be better off if every congresscriiter were replaced with the town drunk. Who would even notice a difference?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bye, bye, Internet. n/t
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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. thats what they're really after
If it weren't for the internet, they would be wearing arm bands in the open.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
45. Its been their goal since they realized the Internet's power. n/t
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
134. exactly
people's eyes have been opened, and they don't like that!
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
18. does anyone know its status in the senate? This is truly frightening.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. The Senate is currently considering a companion bill, S. 1959.
Bill Status
Sponsor: Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME)
Cosponsors (as of 2007-10-21)
Sen. Norm Coleman (R-MN)

Status: Introduced Aug 2, 2007


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1959


As for H.R. 1955, I haven't found when it was introduced in the Senate, or its status there, just that it hasn't been voted on yet:

Status: Introduced Apr 19, 2007
* Scheduled for Debate Aug 1, 2007
* Passed House (details) Oct 23, 2007
Voted on in Senate -
Signed by President -

This bill has been passed in the House. The bill now goes on to be voted on in the Senate. (Last Updated: Oct 23, 2007)
Last Action: Oct 23, 2007: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill, as amended Agreed to by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 404 - 6 (Roll no. 993).
Show All Related Votes

Votes on Passage
Oct 23, 2007: This bill passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The vote was held under a suspension of the rules to cut debate short and pass the bill, needing a two-thirds majority. The totals were 404 Ayes, 6 Nays, 22 Present/Not Voting.



http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. I care not a whit for this potential law,
I will fight tooth and nail to protect the freedoms abridged by this bullshit.
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everydayis911 Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. Good Luck
I mean I'm with ya all the way, but when they make it hard for us to get around like $10.00 a gallon for gas or no gas and less and less food at the stores, it's gonna get ugly. And we won't know what is going on because our internetS have a stream to FAUX Noise if we still have that. The american people have let this happen because they don't seem to care. We care here, but not enough people do. They always say "Well what can we do about it" They will now see what they have to do about it just to stay alive. It will be too late for everyone if this bill passes. This is all due to 9/11. 9/11 is their blanket and they wrap themselves in it and they are protected. And silly me here I am looking for a job and I didn't even know I was a terrorist. Should I put that down??????? Or maybe that is still the reason I don't have a job.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
29. Ok. Now I am scared. REAL scared. DAMN!
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
70. So am I.
:hug:
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
121. I'll protect you!
:hug: :pals:
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #121
135. Knowing you are there helps.
:hug: :pals:

Hope your family is doing well after the fires. :hug:
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
31. They cant bring down the net... so they just criminalize activities
on it, such as decent, and opposition to Power.

I feel sick.
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. "They cant bring down the net..."
Why not? China has. The net is the greatest threat to fascism. It allows the free transfer of ideas. Can't have that.

I am reconsidering my position on the 2nd Amendment.

Gotta go. Somebody at the door.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
32. Websites like DU will cease to exist. Just you watch.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. no they won't
they'll simply move offshore, if they have to. If the PRC, which controls all data links into and out of China, can't stop the internet, how will this law, exactly? it's called encryption and anonymous remailers, almost all offshore. that's the beauty of the internet (and shockingly, people still don't get it) it is infinitly adaptable, no one has been able to enforce their will on the net, anytime someone tries, even the government, a workaround is found instantly.

think of it this way. the combined efforts of basically every respectable company, government and individual can't stop the transmission of child pornography, and you think political dissent can be quashed? please.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. A large number of Americans are "educated" to "believe" the "unbelievable"
otherwise, we would not have some of the surreal dialogs from "progressives" with good will here in DU.

Information is "power".

In the U.S., part of the success in keeping Americans out of touch with reality and working against their own interest is information compartmentalization. Another ploy is the "left" / "right" or "crossfire" arguments design with the purpose to confuse.

For the average American, a sudden and small "change" to Internet access points would effectively "deny" access and create chaos.

As for the "transmission of child pornography" those folks are the "granddaddys" of messageboards on the Internet. Think of the Internet as a "red light district" where "decent people" moved and are trying to transform.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
102. It's hard enough ...
to get the truth out even with all this access and we're losing ground faster then the Louisiana coastline. And what makes you think that the tentacles of these bastards can't reach into foreign lands? We already have over 700 military bases in over 130 countries. So just where would the sites be able to operate?
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
120. and you think they won't be able to trace and prosecute whomever they please?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 06:39 PM by BigBearJohn
They have the phone companies spying on Americans
and now you say they won't have the ability to reign in the
internet once they have decided to? Once they have
the law behind them, they can bring down the hammer HARD.

Believe what you want. Time will tell.
Just for the record, I PRAY THAT YOU ARE CORRECT.
This is one situation where I pray with all my heart
that I am wrong.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
56. I Believe You are Right
Where will they draw the line if this passes? Who decides what is permitted and what isn't?
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
101. Free speech and exchange of ideas?
Sites like DU will simply comply as they have been doing. There is no free exchange of ideas on lots of banned topics. Locking, moving threads to the dungeon or in some cases threads just disappear.
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everydayis911 Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. Alright maybe I'm too Paranoid
Sorry for carrying on. I just have seen what they have done and know what they can do to us sheep. I wouldn't put it past these fuckers to quarantine a whole state over some made up virus. No phone calls or emails snail mail sent just some nasty virus which of course is National Security. But don't worry Sean Hannity will be up next with the news. He'll get to the bottom of this. Stay Tuned.
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woundedkarma Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
37. Pure insanity
How could anyone vote for this thing? HOW CAN ANY AMERICAN VOTE FOR THIS THING?

Where were these politicians raised because it sure as heck wasn't in America.

Why don't they see that this is a direct attack on the freedom of speech?

I have another question, particularly for other members of the DU. Why has no one mentioned the part of the las vegas debate where the candidates stood there, IN FRONT OF ALL OF AMERICA and declared that Security was more important than Human Rights?

This country was founded on the belief in and of inalienable human rights. Without them, this country does not exist. There is no need to secure it because we've already destroyed ourselves.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. By placing human rights at a lower priority....

they may have doomed the national security in the long run. Maybe we should all look forward to a new form of government.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
104. Four things:
Bilderberg Group - Gen. Smedley Butler - Project for the New American Century - Norman Dodd http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7373201...

Investigate these and weep for America.

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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
39. Does this mean that "The Rapture" is now against the law?
About time. :hide:
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liberal hypnotist Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
41. Scary stuff but par for the course.
Who sponsored such a bill?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
42. I'm having reading comprehension problems here
All I see is a commission to study a subject.

Not that it isn't useless and the alleged threat overblown. If they have to study something, it ought to be why there are so many without health insurance.

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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. The language of this bill is flexible. It's wide open to
interpretation by TPTB. The way it is written allows them to crush dissent at any level in order to "prevent" social upheaval, as in a revolt.

As for the portion establishing a university-level program to study "Violent Radicalization" and "Homegrown Terrorism" in the United States, to me, is all about engraining the brainwashing and continuing the manipulation of young minds. Color me naive, but the DHS establishing "Center"s in universities? It's a little unsettling to me.

I'm afraid that this one bill could be the beginning of the end of public access to the Internet. They are basically saying in this bill that the Internet breeds radicalism. It's a shame that truth is now "redicalization" that breeds terrorism.

One more thing. I never had any idea that there was so much "Violent Radicalization" and "Homegrown Terrorism" in this country. Where is it? Beyond a few loose screws every now in then, where is it. Wouldn't we have heard something about it if it was bad enough to take away the Internets?
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. Or perhaps when Martial Law is declared.
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amb123 Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
43. It should be called "Bill To Establish The Thought Police"
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:01 AM by amb123
:scared: :grr: :argh: :nuke:

Say Good-bye to the Internet, too.
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spirit of wine Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
46. This Is Hypocrisy To The Nth Degree!
The unaccountable people in charge writing and changing these laws for the social change they hope to provoke now claim they want others to be the ones responsible? Do not worry, Oh meaningless government, when the people decide to speak you won't even know what hit you.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
48. K&R I think Daniel Ellsburg was correct when he wrote that a coup
has already occurred in the U.S. What else can explain the presence of such legislative possibility?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
50. The Commission and The Center, will be studying radicalization
backwards. They plan to follow it back to see who "could become" a terrorist. With enough money, and time, they can follow radicalization to birth.


Watch out for the Thought Police.

Dissent is to become Treason.

The Fascist Shift is on.

Welcome to the Fascist States of America.
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
52. I'm sure the MSM will be all over this like hair on a bear!
:sarcasm:


I'm reminded of an old carnival sideshow where a beautiful woman is chained up and transformed into a gorilla using mirrors. The fakiness was obvious, but everybody jumped and screamed when the 'girilla' broke free.
Only now the government is using mirrors to stifle the free and open exchange of ideas, and the right to decent. Our army has become a bunch of mindless clones bent to this current regimes will, and the regime itself remains frightened enough of the people it resorts to lies - fabrications of how so many people in this evil world lust for our destruction - to justify it's conversion to xenephobic fascism. Truth has already become the first victim.

I kinda hope 'my' government is monitoring this site, because I'll say this : When the hell does the war start already?
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
53. KUCINICH Needed Now More Than Ever
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:51 AM by mrone2
If you really want to save our Democracy and freedom then allow yourself to look past the corporate media candidates and elect Dennis Kucinich. We all know he stands for a truly Constitutional Democracy in America, yet some still buy into the falsehood "he can't be elected". Why? Because the media says it's so? Don't forget folks, WE DECIDE who is electable, NOT CBS or ABC or NBC or FOX or CNN or the DLC, or the RNC, but rather WE THE PEOPLE do. Get off your collective butts and send in a donation to his campaign....I don't care if it's $1...JUST DO IT, and get out and talk to others about his campaign, post emails on his behalf to whatever political groups you belong to, get involved IN ANY WAY you can if you really want to save America for future generations. This quite literally may be a last chance opportunity for us to repel fascist control before it is forever cemented into our lives. Make no mistake, it's coming, I know it and you know it, the signs are there and each new piece of legislation such as this brings us inexorably one step closer. I will cast my vote for Dennis Kucinich to prevent this from happening, but I realize I cannot do it alone. America needs a President who is NOT connected to "the system", who is Independent enough from the corporate masters to be able to enact change, and a reversal of current trends towards the dismantling of our Constitution. America needs a man like Dennis Kucinich. Think about it, then get involved. Your children and grandchildren will thank you for it.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
58. Who Will Decide What is Permitted and What Isn't?
Welcome to a police state....


PS - Good Germans were ok with it too.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
59. The Senate Bill is 1959
Time to call and work as hard as you have ever worked against this bill.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
60. Glen Beck earlier this week called Ron Paul supporters, Terrorists.
I wonder if he was getting a memo from the Bush White House. The big Paul fundraiser on the internet was November 5th, and for those who watched the movie V, that's Beck's reasoning behind declaring Paul supporters Terrorists.
My fear is that we here who oppose the War will be branded Terrorists, remember either your with us or against us.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
61. The way I read this, we could throw the entire Bush administration in jail,
and forfeit their property, and deny them access to legal counsel, holding them as enemy combatants indefinitely.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
65. Did Bill O'Reilly write this garbage?
Sounds like exactly the kind of thing he has been calling for, more stridently than ever in recent weeks. He only recognizes "responsible" dissent, meaning no dissent at all.

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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
66. Guess who is in charge of disbursing funding for this catastrophe.
IF you guessed the shrew Lurita Doan, you would be correct.

`(j) Assistance From Federal Agencies-

`(1) GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION- The Administrator of General Services shall provide to the Commission on a reimbursable basis administrative support and other services for the performance of the Commission's functions.

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FraDon Donating Member (316 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
68. The soil is shaking, as we speak, above the graves of
J. Edgar Hoover, Joe McCarthy & Roy Cohn. Stand back.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
69. No piece of paper is going to stop me from expressing my views
But hey, does this cover rw terrorist groups that blow up abortion clinics, or just those of us in this country who actually give a damn about our constitution? What Orwellian Bs, as if to think their interpretation alone of what constitutes "terrorism" is the right one. What arrogance. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves. Shame on them.
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
71. In "of force or violence" what exactly is "force"?
"The term 'homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence"

Why is the word "force" added here and why is is not defined?
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
96. It's already part of the criminal code
the lectric law library cites the following "PHYSICAL FORCE - Physical action against another, and includes confinement. 18 USC"

That being said, they don't say anything about "physical force" in the statute. Could they be trying to invent some other sort of force?

Congress is usually vague about these matters anyway. They leave it up to the courts and civil servants to interpret and implement their intent.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
133. Random House Webster's V3.0 has an interesting definition:
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 11:46 PM by SimpleTrend
...4. power to influence, affect, or control; efficacious power: the force of circumstances; a force for law and order.
5. Law. unlawful violence threatened or committed against persons or property.
6. persuasive power; power to convince: They felt the force of his arguments.
7. mental or moral strength: force of character.
8. might, as of a ruler or realm; strength for war.


The Findlaw.com dictionary:

1: a cause of motion, activity, or change

2: a body of persons available for a particular end
Example: the labor {h,1}force

specif
: "police force" (usu. used with the)

3: violence, compulsion, or constraint exerted upon or against a person or thing


That seems to dovetail with the latter part of the paragraph defining Homegrown Terrorist: "to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

Isn't the very nature of people-powered politics in a representative republic, the root word of "political" in "political or social objectives" to peacefully "force" a government through "politics", as findlaw states under definition 1? Isn't the very nature of politics itself that of change?

It certainly seems poorly phrased if the intent is only to stop physical force, it seems it could be construed to limit the representative republic itself, in other words, could this legislation be used against Congress with respect toward law the Executive Branch doesn't care for but feels "forced" to comply with?
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #71
119. What is violence?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 06:41 PM by personman
Is it me or is there some orwellian redefining going on with the term? I always thought of violence as a physical attack on another flesh and blood human being, but it seems most places I look, property damage is included.

After looking around a bit, Wikipedia suggests that the idea that property damage isn't violence is an anti-capitalist idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence

Anti-capitalists ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-capitalist )assert that capitalism is violent. Most regard the pursuit of private property, trade, interest and profits to be violent, allegedly because they require police violence to defend them and war to expand them.<20> Many contest calling any form of property damage violent.<21> Similarly, many anti-capitalists lambast what they call structural violence which denotes a form of violence in which social institutions kill people slowly by preventing them from meeting their basic needs, often leading further to social conflict and violence.

They reference a Solon.com article:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/10/anarchists...

Who were those masked anarchists in seattle?

For the most part, the blockaders share the rioters' belief that destroying property is not "violent." Their objection is a strategic one. Brooke Lehman, an activist with Reclaim the Streets/NYC who helped organize the Direct Action Network (DAN) blockade, expresses the views of many. "I personally am not against property destruction. I don't consider it a violent action," she says. "I consider it often a stupid action but not a violent one. It's usually not wise in a crowd situation because it endangers the public and makes things escalate."

But in making property destruction integral to their activism, the members of the "black bloc" are returning to the original meaning of direct action, as it was defined by the early 20th century Industrial Workers of the World. The witty and defiant Wobblies, as they are commonly known, hold a special fascination for young radicals today. In the days before the WTO protest, for example, groups of activists could be found singing "Hallelujah, I'm a Bum" and other Wobbly standards.

The Wobblies' basic approach was what they called "direct action at the point of production," by which they meant strikes, slowdowns and workplace sabotage, rather than indirect action via traditional trade unions or the political process.


It's interesting to me that I held this idea before I knew anything about politics, economics or anarchism. Is it really so radical to think that hurting a flesh and blood human being and destruction of some inanimate piece of junk are on vastly different levels?

I guess I better ask these sorts of questions while I can, as my genitals taze easy, but I think this whole thing stinks. I think it's indicative of anti-humanist, and pro capitalist and materialist values. Very vague, and would probably be abused a lot even if it wasn't.

-personman
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
72. Eh, this is nothing.
If that's the full bill, there's only like five sections.

One is a "findings" section, which is where Congress bullshits and says, "this is what we think we know is true." The findings section is always carefully cherry-picked to provide only those facts which justify the cash cow to follow.

You'll notice that this section does not mention that most of the violent, self-radicalized terrorists--Tim McVeigh, Sam Bowers, Paul Jennings Hill, John Tomkins, Donald Spitz--of our nation's past are conservatives and for the past fifty years now, Republicans.

Then there's the usual stuff like, "let's set up a commission to further study this, since our findings are always bullshit," and "then we'll set up a Center for Excellence" where our drivers and home security guards and their kids can go fuck off on the federal dime."

Then there's the interesting concept of preventing violent radicalism through international cooperation. If this bill had been written and passed in October, 2001, it would have made sense, but since we're now basically Nazis in pinstripes as far as world opinion goes, it doesn't mean shit.

And then there is the doff of the cap to civil rights and liberties, which the findings, study, and center will all advocate further eroding to keep the terrorists out of your cookie jar--but not anytime soon because success might jeopardize the existence of the commission and the center for excellence.

I used to have to review about a dozen of these bills--and I mean specifically, anti-terrorism bills--every month. This one is a pussycat compared to most of them out there.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Thank you for you insight. And perhaps
it is a pussycat compared to the Patriot Act and others, but the language of this bill is frightening and if it becomes law, that language can be used against any number of "infractions" dreamed up by DHS and the "Center". It also will make law their assertion that the Internet breeds "violent radicalization" and "homegrown terrorism". One could interpret that in any number of ways, the least of which being the shutting down (or severe restiction) of the Internet in this country as a means to prevent "violent radicalization" and "homegrown terrorism".

Not to mention the passing of this law will put the very act of thinking in jeopardy and lays the groundwork for control over thought and how we connect with each other.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. When speaking of domestic terrorists, we would be remiss to forget...
Eric Rudolph, abortion clinic bombing scumbag.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #72
114. thanks for being the voice of reason
amongst all the other weeping and wailing. A study and a commission. Oh no, it is the end of the world.

Plus, are we really in favor of incitements to violence?
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #72
129. "Center for Excellence" -- another Orwellian doublespeak masterpiece in miniature. nt
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
137. I should, however, add....
I should add that one of the reasons why this bill--which rightly sparks outrage amongst many of you--looks comparatively innocuous to me is because most of our civil liberties have already been shitcanned thanks to the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act, both of which were designed to take away many of the basic freedoms for which our soldiers are still bravely fighting and dying--if you're still swallowing that horse crap.

Those two laws, with their various reauthorizations and attendant riders, have screwed us so badly that there really isn't any need for Congress to further intrude on our private lives--we don't have private lives anymore. All a truly amoral federal government needs to do--and I'd like to see someone argue that this federal government isn't completely amoral--is put together the puzzle pieces hidden in the hysterical rights giveaway of 2001-2005 to create the police state we already have. The power our government holds over us is now so much greater than the remedies we the people retain that all we need to do is test it to find out what we're really dealing with. After peoples' life savings drain through their SUVs and they want things to change, they'll find out that since Shrub's first year in office we've been a People's Democratic Republic with all the rights and privileges available to a citizen of the old People's Democratic Republic of Yemen--which is to say none.

In that sense, this may be the final nail in the coffin, but the coffin was nailed shut long ago. This nail just holds the corsage in place so the dirt won't knock it off.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
74. If read carefully, this act will be violently (heh heh!) opposed by most Baptist chuches in Texas!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
123. That's what I'm thinking...

also, these types of issues would better be addressed through hate speech laws. What is really driving this legislation is the alleged use of anti-Semitic websites by tying their propaganda in with 9-11 MIHOP theories.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. How could they do this?
Democrats and Republicans alike voted for this travesty under cover of the California fires. If it holds up in court, America as we once knew it is dead forever.

Libertarians and survivalists are up in arms about it as much as progressives and liberals. That puts us in rather strange company, but I'll own up to the fact that I now have more in common with them than I do with mainstream Washington Democrats. Our party has been overtaken by Anti-Constitutionalists.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I was hoping someone would connect the timing of this bill
under cover of the California wildfires.

Makes me wonder what else they were sneaking under the door when the media had everybody hypnotized by the fires.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. One might wonder at the arsonist's motives as well. n/t
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
83. this isn't the final nail.
the final nail will be the dismantling of the last vestiges of democracy. this is merely one of the final nails.
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Hotler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
91. If we're going to rise up...
we better be thinking about doing it real soon.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
93. Somebody please update
when this nazi garbage goes before the senate.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
94. In order to stay online
We will need all the computer geek wizards we can get ahold of---they are out there!!
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
97. So when will they use this on the megachurches
That preach hate of women, GLBT and brown folk and incite violence against us?

OH RIGHT, IT'S ONLY TERRORISM IF HETERO WHITE CHRISTIANS ARE ATTACKED LOL WHAT WAS I THINKING?
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Danascot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
98. Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism?

Sure sounds like GOP/Bushco to me.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
99. Kucinich one of the six to vote NAY.
Anybody listening?

Anybody care?

Anybody care enough to throw some $$ and support his way?
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
103. Why do I get the feeling
this has nothing to do with any White Supremacist Compounds, full of hate filled ideology, skinheads, and guns? Or Blackwater?
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
105. South Africa, 1950:
Suppression of Communism Act, Act No 44 of 1950
Outlawed communism and the Community Party in South Africa. Communism was defined so broadly that it covered any call for radical change. Communists could be banned from participating in a political organisation and restricted to a particular area.

Terrorism Act of 1967
Allowed for indefinite detention without trial and established BOSS, the Bureau of State Security, which was responsible for the internal security of South Africa.

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/bl/blsalaws.htm
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Excuse me but there are more:
From Wikipedia:

The National Party government implemented, alongside apartheid, a program of social conservatism. Pornographic movies, gambling and other vices were banned. At the same time, it instituted the International Freedom Foundation. Printed or filmed pornography (of even the mildest variety) was banned and its possession was punishable by incarceration.

Television was not introduced until 1975 because it was viewed as dangerous by right-wingers. Television was also run on apartheid lines -- TV1 broadcast in Afrikaans and English (and was geared to a white audience); TV2 in Zulu and Xhosa (and geared to a black audience); TV3 in Sotho, Tswana and Pedi (and geared to a black audience); and TV4 showed mostly African-American programmes (for an urban-black audience). All TV channels were government-owned and acted as propaganda agents for apartheid.

Sunday was considered holy. Cinemas, bottle stores and most other businesses were forbidden from operating on Sundays. Abortion and sex education were also restricted; abortion was legal only in cases of rape or if the mother's life was threatened.

During the 1980s the government, led by P.W. Botha, became increasingly preoccupied with security. On the advice of American political scientist Samuel Huntington, Botha's government set up a powerful state security apparatus to "protect" the state against an anticipated upsurge in political violence that the reforms were expected to trigger. The 1980s became a period of considerable political unrest, with the government becoming increasingly dominated by Botha's circle of generals and police chiefs (known as securocrats), who managed the various States of Emergencies.

Botha's years in power were marked also by numerous military interventions in the states bordering South Africa, as well as an extensive military and political campaign to eliminate SWAPO in Namibia. Within South Africa, meanwhile, vigorous police action and strict enforcement of security legislation resulted in hundreds of arrests and bannings, and an effective end to the ANC's sabotage campaign.
(...)
During the last years of apartheid rule in South Africa, the country was more or less in a constant state of emergency.

Increasing civil unrest and township violence led to the government declaring a State of Emergency on 20 July 1985, giving it the power to deal with resistance to apartheid. More human rights were violated during this period than ever before. It became a criminal offence to threaten someone verbally or possess documents that the government perceived to be threatening. It was illegal to advise anyone to stay away from work or oppose the government. It was illegal, too, to disclose the name of anyone arrested under the State of Emergency until the government saw fit to release that name. People could face up to ten years' imprisonment for these offences. However, although the government increased its repressive measures, it was not enough to secure a lasting position in power.
-----------------------------------------

Similarities.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
107. OK,
let's say nice things about Bush and Cheney from now on.
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Yavapai Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. say nice things about Bush & chenny,
and send Dub-ya some pretzels. Who knows, we could get lucky!
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
108. Facist Amerika
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
110. A few things strike me as I read thru this...
This wording looks like it might apply to scenarios that exist in the UK and France, where there are large Muslim enclaves that have not assimilated and where unemployment and disaffection are rampant. These communities are often targeted by recruiters for extremest groups. At least if you believe what you read in the newspapers.

There are no such analagous communities in the US. Muslims here, by and large, are very educated, successful and at least somewhat integrated into their communities.

With the possible exception of prison populations, where large numbers of African-American males convert to Islam, there seems to be no target group.

That leaves me wondering exactly what this hopes to accomplish, other than to send some money to some academics.

I don't like it, but only because my Libertarian leanings leave me with a bad taste for any law that doesn't accomplish something useful.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
111. So this will be used against the radical xian anti-abortion organizations
and the hateful anti-homosexual groups right?

Pardon me if I don't hold my breath on that.
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Mrspeeker Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
113. Impeachment is off the table because they need to get work like this done?
The future of AMERICA is a privatized green zone in every state. Better hope you are wealthy enough to be behind those walls to even have water. UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE, but you better believe it!
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roxnev Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
115. The Senate
Canot change the constitution only the people can
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
118. This bill was just what King George needed (and used) against Jefferson, Paine, Adams, Washington...

And the Declaration of Independence seems to set forth the inalienable right to alter or abolish the form of government, either by elections or by the method of 1776. I guess that method of 1776 will be outlawed by this bill, except that inalienable rights are immune to "all mortal power" in terms of attempting to legislate them away, consider them waived, etc. I don't know anyone planning on any "violence", yet its curious that the Congress would want to close the door (or purport to) for the protection of freedom here in the USA.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
122. Thank you Congress for doing the people's work
No wonder chIMPEACHMENT is off the table
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
125. It's IRONIC to contrast the anti-violence language in this bill
against the persistent presence of bullying in public schools, and to note that this bill's language seems to give educators a great deal more "power" over the masses.

As if they didn't have enough, already, with abusive compulsory schools.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
127. Hmmm. . .
. . . won't this make abortion clinic demonstrations illegal as well?
Maybe the RRW's need to think about their support for this.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
136.  This thing is scary
Because it can define anyone at anytime as a terrorist or supporter of terror even if you speak out against this admin . It reminds me of the phrase " you are either with us or against us " and this is still here only worse .

We had the cahnce to take the hammer away before they nialed the coffin shut now we have to pry it open wihtout any tools and our bare hands .
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. "now we have to pry it open wihtout any tools and our bare hands." No, we don't.
We just need to start collecting crowbars. We need to establish a "crowbar underground".

This has been my rant for awhile now: STOP looking to electoral politics to make the changes that need to be made. The only way electoral politics is going to be swung around to work for US, is by US building a social movement FIRST. When you've got a social movement going with enough momentum THEN electoral politics HAS to follow.

If you don't build up enough pressure from below and outside, they can continue to ignore you with impunity. Look at the history of this country -- and the rest of the world, for that matter. Nothing changes until the minds of the people on the ground change.

As Frederick Douglass said: "Power yields nothing without a struggle."

sw
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #140
141.  I agree , I don't look for electoral politics to change anything
That is nothing more than a game where one side wins , the wrong side .
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
138. is this serious? n/t
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
143. Barbara Lee doesn't speak for me
I see people in this thread complaining about "them". "Them" are the Democrats, all except for a microscopic minority.

You can vote for them, but don't forget that they are your mortal enemies. Good cop and bad cop, screwing you.
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