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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:31 PM
Original message
Catholic bishops say voters' souls at stake
Proclaiming a sense of new energy and empowerment, the nation's Roman Catholic bishops on Wednesday issued instructions to Catholic voters that their eternal salvation could be at stake when they cast ballots.

Bishops emphasized that voters must consider the church's teachings on abortion and other moral issues when they select a candidate for the White House or any other office. If they don't, bishops said, it's not clergy who will judge them but God.

"It is important to be clear that the political choices faced by citizens have an impact on general peace and prosperity and also the individual's salvation," the bishops said in the document, titled "Faithful Citizenship." "Similarly, the kinds of laws and policies supported by public officials affect their spiritual well-being."

Bishops have drafted a similar document every four years since the 1976 presidential election, when concerns centered on Soviet dominance in Eastern Europe and recovery from the Watergate scandal. But the guidelines issued Wednesday for the first time spelled out possible consequences as well as giving much more nuanced instruction to the Catholic electorate than in years past.

Voters are implored not to support abortion-rights political candidates but also advised that views on abortion should not be the sole factor. Catholics should also weigh church teaching on such moral issues as immigration, just war and poverty, bishops said.

Read Entire Story


OK.....
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. The higher-up Catholic Church vs. the on-the-ground, day-to-day charitable
work of Catholic men and women is a huge, huge gap at times.

I hope the higher-ups will follow the on-the-grounders in matters of social reparation and individual affirmation.

By which I would suggest that Catholics (and everyone else eligible to vote) cast their support against Republican war-making and strongly for an inclusive health care and education domestic agenda.

The hinge isn't who's in what party or what faith someone holds. The hinge is who needs help and who's willing to provide it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. This morning, I read they're doing the same thing in Venezuela.
Wasn't the Church one of the first operating corporations?

(And yes, I expect to go to hell for that thought.)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. What a relief! I'll have somebody who's great to talk with in hell when I get
there myself!

As far as Catholics are concerned, give me the St. Francis model and the Robert F. Kennedy model and not the conservtive Pope model or the Inquisition model.

Mostly I'll take the anonymous monks who copies the (pagan) texts of antiquity in lonely, cold Irish monasteries in the Dark Ages and the good nuns who strive anonymously to help the sick and the dying and the helpless.

I think the Big Boys need to take a lesson or two from the little people who actually have made a genuine human contribution.

And when are these people going to start ordaning women? As the bumper sticker goes, "Either start ordaining women or stop dressing like them."
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. LOL! We're REALLY in for it now.
:)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Yes, but our stock as martyrs just went through the roof.
A later age will beatify us as saints!
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Hey, I think every sect of Christianity has condemned me to hell!
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 07:42 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
Are you Catholic, sfexpat2000?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Yes. I don't think this membership ever lapses.
lol
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. I should have known!
Fellow womb to the tomb Hispanic Catholic :)!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I was 18 before I learned guilt wasn't a condiment.
:)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Duplicate subject from the 14th, through that time the news article was from Yahoo
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:50 PM by happyslug
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Here is the Actual Paper being discussed:
http://www.usccb.org/bishops/FCStatement.pdf

From this site (US Conference of Bishops):
http://www.usccb.org/whoweare.shtml

It is heavy on Abortion, which being a collection of Catholic Bishops should NOT surprise anyone. Through Abortion seems to be number one on the agenda, and thus the most discussed single topic, Abortion is NOT even close to being the topic of most of the Paper, the paper is much more. Read it, ignore the abortions parts, and most of the items brought up most DUers would support.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Yeah, the 14th CENTURY. nm
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. You guys are killing me.
:rofl:
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. They also have a lovely section on "protecting marriage"
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 07:55 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
Those are the first three. Abortion, Abortion and Gay Marriage. The rest of the paper focuses on helping the unfortunate and our environment. However their main points are against choice and against the rights of homosexuals.

In my mind that is completely topsy turvy. We should be focusing on the PEOPLE who are here and what we can do to help them, not hinder them. The Catholic church has no business telling a secular government they can't marry gays.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's just darling how the Catholic Church still thinks it can lecture others on morality
It's so pwecious.

TlalocW
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. War, not abortion, should be the primary moral concern of Catholic voters
In this nation the right to abortion is not likely to be successfully challenged, no matter who the president is. That is a simple fact.

Also, unless something has changed, no one is ever forced to have an abortion against their will, so long as they are mentally capable of making such a decision.

Also, it is not up to us to judge the actions of a woman who does have an abortion. That, as the bishops point out, is God's purview, not man's.

On the other hand, an illegal, immoral and genocidal war violates all of Christ's teachings, across the board. A Catholic who votes for ANYONE who would continue this "war" must also realise that he or she is voting for the murder of innocent men, women and children in numbers far beyond calculation.

Which is the worse sin? Standing by while a woman decides to get an abortion, or standing by while US troops blow the brains of a five-year-old Iraqi girl all over the pavement.

Strangely enough, that isn't too difficult a choice to make, at least from my pew.

The bishops are right, but they should put the emphasis where it belongs, on war, exploitation and the crushing of the poor.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. The Actual paper DOES address the War, extensively
The was is mentioned less then Abortion, but not by much.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Cardinal O"Malley said that abortions were the most
important sin. The reason they are losing parishioners is because of their stupid views. Ok to diddle little boys but god forbid a woman could control her own body. They need to be taxed. Cry babies. My cardinal thinks that the democrats should be more like republicans and kill the already born with health care, wars and capital punishment. How do you like that???
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. Intimidating voters with religious views? Yank their tax exemptions!
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Damn right. And howzabout we dust off the RICO laws while we're at it?
It's WAY past time for some folks to start feeling
the consequences of their actions!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The paper is more a Guide on HOW to vote then who to vote.
And as such completely within the law for tax exempt churches. Tax exemptions is pulled when tax exempt property is used to support or oppose any single candidate OR there is so much commingling of both Church funds and the leadership funds that it is impossible to separate one from the other. The Catholic Church, like most Religions, obey these rules to preserve their tax exemption.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Mendacity.
A skill the Church has cultivated ever since they tried to block the English translation of the bible.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. You obviously didn't hear Cardinal O'Malley's statement.
He explicitly mentioned the Democrats and told us
we'd be sinning if we supported "pro-abortion
Democrats". He was far onto the wrong side of
the 501(c)3 line.

Tesha
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. I read an article about Cardinal O'Malley's statement...
...and I didn't see anything like that, but perhaps the article wasn't all-inclusive of his comments.

Also, laws pertaining to tax-exempt status do not apply to individuals, including clergy, unless their comments are part of an official function of the tax-exempt entity. Therefore, as an individual, Cardinal O'Malley has every right to walk out of a meeting and give his comments to the press about political parties or individual politicians without endangering any tax-exempt status.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
58. I heard it straight from the horse's ass, err mouth on the local Boston TV station.
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 07:21 AM by Tesha
> I read an article about Cardinal O'Malley's statement and I
> didn't see anything like that, but perhaps the article
> wasn't all-inclusive of his comments.

I heard it straight from the horse's ass, err mouth on the
local Boston TV station.

'Shame you're not getting the complete, true picture
from your news source. Quelle surprise, hein?


> Therefore, as an individual, Cardinal O'Malley has every
> right to walk out of a meeting and give his comments to the
> press about political parties or individual politicians without
> endangering any tax-exempt status.

You might want to look up the definition of "ex cathedra".
As the Catholic Church's equivalent of a branch vice president,
the Archbishop of the Boston Diocese might not have quite the
same free speech rights you're drediting him with; when he
made the offensive statement, he was clearly speaking as
a Cardinal and the Archbishop of Boston and *NOT* as some
guy named Shawn.


Tesha
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Yep
Tax him and every piece of ground his political machine errr, religious institution does business on.

Also, one has to wonder about this attack on DEMs and attempted political/religious intimidation of voters. Wire taps obviously not for terrorist suspects, too many wires being tapped for that. But wowza we are sure seeing a lot of support from all corners for the failed neocon agenda and the machine which runs it.

Wire taps.

Winning through intimidation goes right along with blackmail. Lots of pols bending to cheney's will. Lots of other types of public leaders bending to cheney's will.

Wire taps.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Abortion is unconscionable
when you could spend a fortune to raise the child to have them killed in some foreign shit hole in a pointless war of economic conquest before they even get to enjoy life and make a meaningful contribution to society.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. This privileged perverts need to STFU!
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PollThis Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think the Bishop's time would have been better served
Consoling some 2000 and 2004 voters.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. Exactly! THis is
bullshit that the priests haven't learned anything in the 7 years of bushite occupation.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. war, no health insurance, guns kill more than abortion
vote Democrat or burn in hell
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. Keep religion out of our voting booths...
and we won't think in your churches.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. Aaaah, shut up!
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 06:34 PM by marmar
They're fast-tracking themselves to irrelevancy.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. They must be right, because they wear these unique hats
Would they wear such wild hats if they didn't know what's best?





Myself, I'm listening to this guy:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. LOL! Good call!
:rofl:
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. "I can't raise my kids in a church whose authority system
is entirely based on the size of fuckin' hats."

- Denis Leary
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Screw the RC Church
They don't hold any power now.

And when they actually did, they caused untold millions of deaths in needless warfare and social strife and repression.

Fix Northern Ireland first and I'll believe the RC's have the people's best interests at heart.

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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. Someone should stand up at the pulpit n tell em the law still is separation of church n state so
BUTT OUT or lose your tax exemptions.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Now, if you'll excuse us, we have some pedophile Priests we have to help escape justice." nt
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. Do they support abortion in case of child rape by Catholic Bishops?
I'm beginning to see how this thing works. It's all about morality.
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. As a Catholic
all I have to say is the Catholic church can kiss my ass. Soul at stake. Give me a fucking break.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. The death penalty and feeding the poor are moral issues, too. nt
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
34. Too bad Torquemada put them out of the torture-condemnation business. n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm pretty sure I signed mine over the day I flipped off that carload of nuns.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. You mean these ladies?

I gave 'em the bird, too. :D
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. heh
I tell ya, I'll flip 'em off again if they cut me off again like they did. :)
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. Bush promised to get rid of Abortion
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 08:34 PM by lovuian
HE LIED
they were using Abortion to get the Christian righters vote

I asked my friend who voted for Bush ...what do you think about him now

All she said was he's your typical politician

At least she knows he's a liar

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Bush "promised to get rid of abortion"? Actually, he did no such thing. In 2000, he soft-pedaled his
anti-choice stand.

Know why he did that?

BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ARE PRO-CHOICE.

The idea that abortion is a "losing issue" for us is a lie fronted by the same Corporate Media that wants us to believe the "values voter" is all-powerful. It's bullshit. Personal freedom and reproductive rights are WINNING issues for our party, as long as we stand up strong for them without equivocation.

You should tell your 'friend' that Bush sucks far worse than "your typical politician". Am I to understand that she'd be okay with his 6 year reign of fuckups if he had managed to get Roe v. Wade overturned?

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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
39. Perhaps Catholic bishops should attend to the state of their own
souls for a while instead of passing judgement on the souls of others.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. mote, meet beam
isn't there a passage somewhere in the Bible about that? Or have they forgotten about the real teachings of Jesus. ...wait, sorry, they can't practice the teachings of Jesus, they might have to be caring and compassionate people. :sarcasm:

...bad girl, no biscuit...
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
43. I couldn't get them to send out a Priest for my Mom's burial
and she was a faithful Catholic all her life. I had to do it myself and I think I did a much better job then they would have. Most priests that I have encountered at Mass are usually very unfriendly and cold. I believe in God, but I have no use for the hierarchy of the church. They just want power as far as I am concerned.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. What? Are they fuckin' nuts?
The whole fucking world is going to blow up and they're worried about whether they get to butt their busy-ass in a woman's right to choose. Dems want family planning and contraceptives but the priests whine about that, too. And, then when the babies come out the bushites and their priest supporters don't want to give them access to health, heat, or food if they're staving.

So, please, spare me the "pro life" bullshit..when in reality they're pro bullshit.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. Now be a good boy/girl, shut up, and kiss his ring.
> So, please, spare me the "pro life" bullshit..when in
> reality they're pro bullshit.

Okay, you've said your piece; now be a good boy/girl,
shut up, and kiss his ring. ;)

Tesha
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. Just guessing here, but there are no Catholics using bitrth control either
:rofl: Do these men think Catholics listen to them :rofl:
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Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
50. So God has decided our eternal salavation relies on how we vote?
I heard this same garbage from my strongly Catholic family in 2004. When pressed for an a response on how I was going to vote, I answered "John Kerry". Then I was told (repeatedly, persistently, and loudly) that if I voted for Senator Kerry that my soul was condemned forever to hell. And it was suggested that I not come back until I beg for forgiveness.

Sure....It's God who is judging us on this matter, not the clergy or the true believers. :sarcasm:
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. I always figure that God has a broader spectrum of concerns than just abortion.
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 07:29 AM by Tesha
(This is an atheist speaking, so add as many grains of
salt as you wish, perhaps a whole Lot's wife worth, but...)

I always figure that God has a broader spectrum of concerns
than just abortion. After all, his son spoke of doing things
like feeding the hungry, cloathing the naked, and housing the
homeless, but in all those red letters, I've never seen talk
of abortion even once.

There was also something in there about rich men, camels, and
needles, but I think if look in the offices of some of the
hierachy of the Catholic Church, they have copies of that
famous painting of a camel shown passing through the eye
of a needle carrying that guy from Monopoly in his top
hat and tails.

Tesha
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
52. The bishops should look to the condition of their own souls at this point. And prepare to be taxed.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
53. If you voted for the wrong person
couldn't you just go to confession and be cool with God again?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. God would probably be fine with it. Aren't all people (and politicians) his children
;)

Bishops might not be as magnanimous. The don't have children. They tend flocks.

Shepherds don't often cotton to individual thinkers in my experience.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
55. Time to revoke their tax exemption...
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
57. They must be getting pretty damned desperate...
...to pull out such an antiquated threat that probably last worked among the serfs in the Middle Ages.

Bottom line is, the Church cannot stand to think of an intelligent, independent-thinking laity. Sad thing is, that intelligence and independence makes their sad threat even more pitable and laughable.

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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
61. Oh, Jesus Christ!
Are these guys still relevant?

I guess they have a lot of money and power still, but man, they are getting painful to hear. Are their eternal souls at stake for protecting child abusers? I guess they pray a lot and make it all better.

Geez.
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