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Pentagon Cover Up *****15,000 OR MORE US DEATHS IN THE IRAQ WAR?

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 02:59 PM
Original message
Pentagon Cover Up *****15,000 OR MORE US DEATHS IN THE IRAQ WAR?
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney11172007.html

Pentagon Cover Up
15,000 or More US Deaths in Iraq War?


....

The Pentagon was covering up the real magnitude of the "suicide epidemic". Following an exhaustive investigation of veterans' suicide data collected from 45 states; CBS discovered that in 2005 alone "there were at least 6,256 among those who served in the armed forces. That's 120 each and every week in just one year."

That is not a typo. Active and retired military personnel, mostly young veterans between the ages of 20 to 24, are returning from combat and killing themselves in record numbers. We can assume that "multiple-tours of duty" in a war-zone have precipitated a mental health crisis of which the public is entirely unaware and which the Pentagon is in total denial.

If we add the 6,256 suicide victims from 2005 to the "official" 3,865 reported combat casualties; we get a sum of 10,121. Even a low-ball estimate of similar 2004 and 2006 suicide figures, would mean that the total number of US casualties from the Iraq war now exceed 15,000.

That's right; 15,000 dead US servicemen and women in a war that--as yet--has no legal or moral justification.

CBS interviewed Dr. Ira Katz, the head of mental health at the Department of Veteran Affairs. Katz attempted to minimize the surge in veteran suicides saying, "There is no epidemic of suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem."
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wonder if suicides have been counted in the total deaths in prior
wars? Is this illegal occupation being handled differently because of the magnitude of dead they want hidden?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I highly doubt they did that in the last unpopular war America was involved: Vitnam
If they didn't recognize PTSD as a major mental health issue during that war, then they likely never bothered keeping track of suicide rates as well.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
81. Certainly not for World War II.
My father grew up in southwest Virginia, where half of the 29th Infantry Division was put together during World War II. The 29th hit the beaches at Omaha and was massacred, then stayed in the line for most of the rest of the war in Europe, suffering over 200% casualties (yes, that's right, and the correct number is 204.2%). There were actually three 29th Infantry divisions: one was killed, one was wounded, and one eventually came home crazy.

Somewhere around ten thousand kids came home to southwest Virginia wounded or "shell shocked," as the popular parlance was around here at the time. And they started dying again: from alcohol abuse, from suspicious car crashes, from "hunting accidents," from bar fights, and often in spectacular cases which could not otherwise be described as anything but suicide, like the fellow who slashed his wrists in his driveway and bled himself out into a bucket for all to see. Dozens died every year in his small area alone, he says, for at least fifteen years. Many became an unusual kind of homeless person who could not be jailed or run out of town as "vags" were in those days, because they were war heroes.

Everyone knew something was wrong, but as far as my father knows, nobody dared keep statistics or even speak publicly about it.

Some experts believe that the rate of suicide rises the less just the war is and the lower popular opinion sinks in favor of the war. If they're right, this war is likely to kill far more Americans by their own hands than will be killed on the battlefield. We know exactly what has to be done to reduce the bloodletting: stop the fucking war and pour that money into huge rehabilitation and counseling efforts--for the rest of those poor kids' lives, short as many of them will be.

There's something else going on, too: when it eventually comes out how many Iraqis have been systematically murdered by Americans, the rate of suicides won't seem to be nearly so excessive, and its explanation won't be as abstract.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did you try to read the writing on The Wall?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-KaZ6NCJGU




Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Did you try to read the writing on the wall
Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again

Day by day I hear the voices rising
Started with a whisper like it did before
Day by day we count the dead and dying
Ship the bodies home while the networks all keep score

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Could your eyes believe the writing on the wall
Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again

One by one I see the old ghosts rising
Stumblin' 'cross Big Muddy
Where the light gets dim
Day after day another Momma's crying
She's lost her precious child
To a war that has no end

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Did you stop to read the writing at The Wall
Did that voice inside you say
I've seen this all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Tha Wall does not include suicides from the war
:cry:
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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. The number sounds rather high.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 03:10 PM by theoldman
If we knew the average suicide rate and doubled it we would have a more accurate guess. I would bet that it is not more than 50% higher. The suicide rate in the US is about 1 per 1000 each year.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. on suicide rates for young vets-plus crooks and liars video
I have seen a few people here ask what the suicide rate among vets from the current wars is and for those that don't have Adobe Flash 9, the video is up on Crooks and Liars

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/8808

At least 6,256 US veterans committed suicide in 2005 an average of 17 a day the network reported, with veterans overall more than twice as likely to take their own lives as the rest of the general population.

While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000.

That figure rose to 22.9 to 31.9 suicides per 100,000 among veterans aged 20 to 24 almost four times the non-veteran average for the age group.

Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems, CBS quoted veterans rights advocate Paul Sullivan as saying.



http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/15/cbs-news-inves...

Part I: Courtesy Watchdog.org

Part II: Download (1187) | Play (552) Download (1126) | Play (267) (h/t Heather)

CBS News aired the results of their 5 month investigation into veteran suicides this evening and what they found was devastating. In 2005 alone, 125 veterans committed suicide each week and of the more than 88,000 vets returning from Iraq, more than 28% of them have experienced mental health problems. CBS Armen Keteyian talked with Paul Sullivan of Veterans For Common Sense who had this to say about the dismal system the VA has for tracking veteran suicides;

Sullivan: We call it the dont look, dont find policy. If the VA doesnt collect the data, then they dont have to do anything about it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
69. But then your troops had not been indoctrinated as Nazis since they
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:56 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
first went to school. Person-to-person war against civilians would all but destroy most even half-decent people. But there is no reason to believe that most American troops are less than decent souls, if not better. Where is your moral compass that that seems to have escaped you? They are being asked the impossible.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
82. You're not getting it. It's an unbelievable number
so your response is to not believe it. But the unbelievable number is the terrifying true one.

How are you on global warming? Because that's outstripping worst case scenarios also.
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dog_lovin_dem Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good grief.
I have been reading about the suicides for a couple of years now, but hadn't stopped and put it all together. This is infuriating...and extremely sad. I only hope our "leaders" are paying attention and Do Something to end this debacle.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not sure that's accurate...
If I recall the CBS report, they estimated the Iraq/Afghanistan veterans weren't the highest percentage. It's still an appalling number any way you look at it, but I think this total is too high.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Counterpunch is deliberately lying.
They know those numbers are for ALL Veterans - Not just Iraqi/Afghan war Veterans. In 2005 there were a total of 24.5 MILLION Veterans.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/resourcesforveterans/a/ve...

Someone check my math........ doesn't that make suicides far under 1%? (Still too many and if we had proper VA care they could probably be cut quite a bit)



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Amanita Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. yeah, not the most trustworthy source...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. CBS also?
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. here is a link to CBS w/methodolgy
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_inves...
In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. Thats 120 each and every week, in just one year.

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.

It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)

"Wow! Those are devastating," said Paul Sullivan, a former VA analyst who is now an advocate for veterans rights from the group Veterans For Common Sense.

go to above link to make these links active
Eye to Eye: Watch more of Keteyian's interview with Sullivan.
Read the Investigative Unit's Data and Methodology behind this story.
Read part 2 of the investigative series.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. CBS is not claiming
the majority of those nearly 11,000 suicides are Iraq war vets between 20-24.

And War on Terror vets would have a higher suicide rate than their non-combat counterparts and would have a higher rate than other groups of veterans - namely because the other groups of veterans those most prone to suicide already did so long before 2005.

Again, the hard numbers are just not there for the age group.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. How many vets of Iraq/Afgan are there?
I thought there have only been about 300,000 that have served in the 2 wars combined... at a rate of 31.9 per 100,000 that makes the count 96 for the Iraq and Afganistan conflicts, no?

This is a terrible thing that vets are more likely to commit suicide, but i don't think the numbers in this thread are adding up.

:shrug:

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007,
The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007, Gulf War Veterans Information System reports the following:

Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846

Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

Total "Undiagnosed Illness" (UDX) claims: 14,874

Total number of disability claims filed: 1,620,906

- Disability Claims amongst Deployed: 407,911
- Disability Claims amongst Non-Deployed: 1,212,995

Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%

Source:
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
98. the body count is high
How long will this continue

There has to be programming problems in the Pentagon

WWII Vets didn't have this programming and held up better than these kids

Plus they were fighting for freedom

it was honorable but the unconcious KNOWS this is evil
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. read my above post-vets ages 20-24 can ONLY be from current Iraq/Afghan wars nt
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. 2 points.
1. The article tells us "mostly" 20-24 yr olds. Hardly a "fact". Hard numbers would be necessary to make any value judgement on "mostly".

2. At any given moment there are more than 1 million active duty US service members, not all of whom have set foot in Iraq.


Suicide probably is high amongst Iraqi Veterans, just as it was and is in Vietnam vets. But the fact remains, CBS never articulated that point in their reporting and Counterpunch is deliberately lying about the numbers.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
84. How many soldiers have we circulated thru Iraq?
Yes, not ALL have been in Iraq. But that's a frighteningly disingenuous statement. We have stripped our military for Iraq. We have recalled trained PILOTS to drive trucks. We have used Air Force ground crews for ground patrol. We are now using SAILORS for land missions. We put soldiers with prostheses back on patrol. We put soldiers with brain trauma and clear mental illness on patrol.We have raised the age to 42, dropped the education requirements, and okayed felons for service. Oh, and we'll take any immigrant willing to put on a uniform.

So how many does that total?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Counterpunch deliberately lying? You don't say... n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. CBS deliberately lying? You don't say... n/t
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. The title of your post is misleading. n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. No it is not
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes, it is.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:16 PM by yibbehobba
From your own goddamn link:

The Pentagon was covering up the real magnitude of the "suicide epidemic". Following an exhaustive investigation of veterans' suicide data collected from 45 states; CBS discovered that in 2005 alone "there were at least 6,256 among those who served in the armed forces. That's 120 each and every week in just one year."



"Those who served in the armed forces" does not equal "those who served in Iraq." Which is what your title implies.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007
The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007,
Posted by seemslikeadream on Sat Nov-17-07 04:18 PM

The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007, Gulf War Veterans Information System reports the following:

Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846

Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

Total "Undiagnosed Illness" (UDX) claims: 14,874

Total number of disability claims filed: 1,620,906

- Disability Claims amongst Deployed: 407,911
- Disability Claims amongst Non-Deployed: 1,212,995

Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%

Source:
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #37
68. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Tell me what in the world any of that has to do with the premise of your original post.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. yeah, I'd never take anything from Counterpunch as
as the truth without other sources to back it up. They're really deplorable.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. excuse me it's CBS
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtm...


In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. Thats 120 each and every week, in just one year.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Did you even read the title of your own post?
There are many millions of veterans living in the US who didn't serve in the Iraq war. The title of the OP is bullshit.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Quit trying to change the subject
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. What subject?
You're using a statistic about overall veteran suicides and applying it to Iraq veteran suicides.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I suppose you didn't read the article
the CBS part
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. ya beat me by a minute, but no harm in repeating the request that cali READ 1st nt
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. why don't you read the article before you bash it???? nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. I read the entire article- not that it was neccessary
for cripe's sake, look at the fucking headline to the CP story- they bundled all vet suicides in- not just the suicides of those that served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not making light of this, it's clear that there is a very serious problem of sucicide among those young people who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it would be nice to see some serious journalism on it, instead of the usual lying shit from Counterpunch
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:19 PM by seemslikeadream


The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007, Gulf War Veterans Information System reports the following:

Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846

Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

Total "Undiagnosed Illness" (UDX) claims: 14,874

Total number of disability claims filed: 1,620,906

- Disability Claims amongst Deployed: 407,911
- Disability Claims amongst Non-Deployed: 1,212,995

Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%

Source:
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. that isn't remotely evidence supporting
the claim that 11,000 Iraq War veterans committed suicide- and that's what Counterpunch is claiming. I don't understand what's so complicated about this.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. go ahead cali believe this lying sack of shit government
keep the faith sweetie


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. more disconnected
nonsense.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. good try
but I wasn't telling you not to post here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Just think of all the lives these children touched
They stole our lambs

I'll never forget Byrds speech about rich men stealing a poor mans only beloved sheep
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. So is CBS ALSO lying?
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:00 PM by seemslikeadream

In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. Thats 120 each and every week, in just one year.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Now you are simply being disingenuous.
Read the OP. The point was claimed that all the suicides were because of the Iraq war. CBS *NEVER* made that claim.

Counterpunch is deliberately lying. This isn't the first time they've been busted either.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:20 PM by seemslikeadream

The Department of Veterans Affairs, May 2007, Gulf War Veterans Information System reports the following:

Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846

Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

Total "Undiagnosed Illness" (UDX) claims: 14,874

Total number of disability claims filed: 1,620,906

- Disability Claims amongst Deployed: 407,911
- Disability Claims amongst Non-Deployed: 1,212,995

Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%

Source:
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Still no proof nearly 11,000 Iraq war vets committed suicide.
It may be true but CBS never reported that and Counterpunch's claim that they did is a lie.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
46.  Department of Veterans Affairs Reports 73 Thousand U.S. Gulf War Deaths
http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file...


How come the government numbers of 3,777 as of 9/7/7 are so low? The answer is simple, the government does not want the 73,000 dead to be compared to the 55,000 U.S. soldiers killed in Vietnam Iraq = Vietnam. What the government is doing is only counting the soldiers that die in action before they can get them into a helicopter or ambulance. Any soldier who is shot but they get into a helicopter before he dies is not counted.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. How many of those are Iraq war veterans who committed suicide?
When you find the hard numbers send me a PM.

None of which addresses the point that Counterpunch lied.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. 73,000 DEAD AND YOU'RE QUIBLING ON HOW
73,000 DEAD

THEY'RE DEAD WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Moving the goalpost doesn't change the question.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:46 PM by Rosemary2205
Where, did CBS claim nearly 11,000 Iraq war vets committed suicide and where are the hard numbers to support that?

Counterpunch claimed it. You repeated it.

PM me if you can ever back it up.

Regarding the pissing match you seem to want -- :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. The important thing to me is that they are DEAD
and all your little hissy fit about how they died is not going to change that
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
90. Regarding the pissing match you seem to want --
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:03 PM by seemslikeadream
:eyes:




http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfNOV07/nf111407-9.ht...

FOLLOW-UP EXAMS UNCOVER MORE IRAQ VETS WITH

EMOTIONAL WOES -- Reported problems nearly triple in six

months.
"We are doing a good thing by having erected these

screening programs. Between the two screenings, we are

finding a large group of soldiers that are having problems."


Follow-Up Exams Uncover More Iraq Vets With Emotional Woes


(HealthDay News) -- The number of Iraq war veterans needing mental-health care has risen sharply since the U.S. Defense Department began screening them a second time for emotional problems, U.S. military researchers reported Tuesday.

Initial screenings of veterans uncovered 4.4 percent who needed treatment for problems such as depression or post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). But six months later, a second screening found 11.7 percent were in need of mental health care, indicating that it might take several months for emotional disorders to emerge, the study suggested.

"We know mental health problems are a problem for soldiers who have been to war," said lead researcher Dr. Charles S. Milliken, of the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research at the U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command. "We are doing a good thing by having erected these screening programs. Between the two screenings, we are finding a large group of soldiers that are having problems."


The findings are published in the Nov. 14 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

For the study, Milliken and his colleagues collected data on the mental health of 88,235 Iraq war veterans who completed an initial screening and a second screening about six months later. Both screenings included a questionnaire and a short interview with a clinician.

"In the second screening, you do find a larger group of soldiers the first screening completely missed," Milliken said. "It's about twice as big."

The researchers found that more soldiers had mental health problems -- such as PTSD, major depression or alcohol abuse -- during the later screening. In the first screening, 4.4 percent of the soldiers were referred for mental health care, but, after the second screening, 11.7 percent were referred.

Milliken thinks the two-step screening process helps remove the stigma attached to seeking help for emotional problems. "Soldiers are like other young males, they have a stigma about seeking mental health care," he said.

Among all the soldiers screened, 20.3 percent of active duty personnel were referred for mental health care, as were 42.4 percent of reserve soldiers, the study found.

Milliken said he didn't know why the difference exists between the active duty soldiers and the reservists. He speculated, however, that it might have to do with the VA's insurance structure that allows reservists access to free care for service-related health problems.

One expert thinks the new, two-tier system for identifying soldiers with emotional problems is working, but the shear numbers of affected veterans could overburden the VA's health-care system.

"I am not surprised by the rates of PTSD among Iraqi vets," said Dr. Randall Marshall, director of Trauma Studies at the New York State Psychiatric Institute and an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Marshall said the difference in PTSD rates among active duty and reserve personnel is expected. "Part of what training is meant to do is desensitize soldiers to all the potential experiences on the battlefield, and the reservists have less training and are therefore more vulnerable to war experiences," he said.

Marshall also said that many reservists have had several tours of duty, "which is something they had not signed up for."

Also, many of these part-time soldiers were split from their units, which means they didn't have as much of a support system as active duty personnel, he said.

Marshall sees another major problem developing for returning veterans. Most psychotherapists aren't trained in the best ways to treat PTSD, he said. "You can't assume because it's a VA hospital everyone there has had this kind of training," he said.

In addition, the number of soldiers needing mental health care is straining an already overburdened system.

"If 20 percent of the veterans realize they need help and start to seek treatment, the system will be overwhelmed. Signs are, it already is," Marshall said.




and there will be more to come
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
91. VA's arguments don't hold water.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:55 PM by seemslikeadream
http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfNOV07/nf111607-1.ht...


UPDATE: VA LASHES OUT AT CBS FOR "VETERANS AND

SUICIDE" REPORTING -- Says CBS used a "questionable

journalistic tactic" in compiling reports. But, VA's

arguments don't hold water.

The VA is striking back at CBS News for their reporting on veterans and suicide.

The first CBS report is here... http://www .
vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfNOV07/nf111407-10.htm
The second is here... http://www.vaw
atchdog.org/07/nf07/nfNOV07/nf111507-10.htm

But, the VA's arguments, against CBS and for their own advocacy, do NOT hold water.

VA's self-congratulatory press release (below) speaks of all they have done in the area of suicide prevention. Truth be told, VA has virtually ignored the problem of veterans and suicide until this year.

In the wake of the Walter Reed scandal and the ensuing stories about problems in VA healthcare, the VA added more suicide counselors.

Their suicide hotline did not get started until late July of this year.

Now, regarding their complaints about CBS.

The VA release states, "VA is concerned that the data CBS presented in its broadcast was not reviewed by independent scientists as most legitimate academic studies are."

This is completely wrong. CBS did not do or claim to do an academic study...they merely reviewed statistical data. And, to make sure they had it right, CBS sent that statistical data to a statistician outside of CBS for independent review as shown in the first report. This statement by the VA is deliberately misleading.

The VA also states, "We are reviewing the limited information that CBS has made available to us..."

Let's make something clear. VA could have had this same data had they gone out to the individual states and asked for it.

VA did NOT do that because they didn't want to know about the suicide problem because then they would have had to address it...as they have been forced to do now.

Once again, the VA is trying to back away from their mistakes. They should be ashamed of using the old "kill the messenger" tactic instead of taking this damning information to heart and doing something about it.

And, to Acting VA Secretary Gordon Mansfield who had ample time to try to do something about the suicide problem during his tenure at the VA: "Mr. Secretary, you are a disgrace. A disgrace for not taking responsibility for the shortcomings of your agency and a disgrace for trying to lay them off on someone else."






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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. Thank you for pointing this out
What the government is doing is only counting the soldiers that die in action before they can get them into a helicopter or ambulance. Any soldier who is shot but they get into a helicopter before he dies is not counted.

and thanks for the OP.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #66
74. Please refer to iCasualties
http://icasualties.org/oif/Dow.aspx

The following is a list of U.S. Fatalities who have died in hospitals in Germany and The United States. Some have claimed that The Department of Defense does not report these deaths, they are obviously mistaken.
Note: these deaths are included in our overall totals.





Home page: http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. suicides are not included here correct?
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Well, browsing the database almost at random I found this
here: http://icasualties.org/oif/Dow.aspx

11/13/06 Winston, Peter E. Non-hostile - suicide Germany

which would indicate that suicides are in the database somehow.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. 1 in 4 Gulf War veterans still has serious illness, panel hears
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/reports/veterans/story/19965...

1 in 4 Gulf War veterans still has serious illness, panel hears
By Les Blumenthal | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 email | print tool nameclose
tool goes here
WASHINGTON Sixteen years after the Persian Gulf War ended, more than 1 in 4 of those who fought remain seriously ill with medical problems ranging from severe fatigue and joint pain to Lou Gehrig's disease, multiple sclerosis and brain cancer, the chairman of a congressional advisory committee testified Tuesday.

But even as more is learned about what's now called Gulf War Veterans Illness, the Defense Department and the Department of Veterans Affairs remain in virtual denial about its causes and have been slow to offer treatment, said James Binns, the head of the research advisory committee on the disease.

"This is a tragic record of failure, and the time lost can never be regained," Binns told the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee. "This government manipulation of science and violation of law to devalue the health problems of ill veterans is something I would not have believed possible in this country until I took this job."

Pentagon and VA officials defended their approach to studying and treating the illness, saying they're taking it seriously, funding clinical and other research, and are committed to ensuring that Gulf War veterans receive needed care.

"Veterans who report health problems are definitely ill," said Michael Kilpatrick, the Defense Department's deputy director for force health protection and readiness programs. "However, they do not have a single type of health problem. Consequently, these veterans have to be evaluated and treated as individuals."
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. I just watched a sneak preview of "Redacted"...

I can't repeat here what was going through my mind as I watched it, but there was a scene of a leftist chick on the internet who explained it pretty well...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. did you say leftist chick?
:)
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. Oh yeah, that's where I got that from..

:hi:

the one in the film was very extreme, but its funny that just as you're trying to deal with the thoughts and emotions that you're feeling watching the film, they show this scene.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R! Thank you seems, n/t
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
40. Dr. Katz was probably involved in the cover up too.
I do not put anything past these thugs in the Wh to downplay the numbers of deaths.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. They wouldn't try and mislead us now would they?
jessus what is wrong with people? :hi:
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. like I said I wouldn't put this past them
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:42 PM by alyce douglas
don't they like to fix the facts? and they never show the number of dead coming back in coffins, and they never let a Senior Senator on a base to see the coffins coming back, we have a VP who is fiddling with NIE where it shows dissent in regards to Iran, so to believe that there are more dead than what is reported I can believe that the numbers are not correct in the number of assumed dead as it being reported. Alot of those who are dead are not included in the numbers.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
51. LYING SINCE GULF WAR l
and you all think they're telling us the truth now??

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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
62. Speaking of cover-ups............
Off topic but I think significant; CNN just ran a 15 min. segment on building implosions.........The Frontier in Vagas, and a famous old hotel in Miami. they played the fall Straight down, several times over.
It seems as if someone is trying to get a message out! ?????
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
63. STOP the republicon homelaner LIES, and the phony oil-profits Crusade
God help America, led into a phony war by a pack of draft-dodging war profiteering liars.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
64. I would assume that the suicide numbers do not include;
Such 'mundane' items as single car crashes, suicide by cop, walking out into traffic, etc... Just about any cause of death that involves a lot of blood and/or blunt force trauma could be conceivably be called into question as a vet's suicide. I just don't see them as the 'slit the wrist' kind of deaths or the popping half a bottle of ludes person either. I can also see the administration investigating all these types of deaths so that they don't mistakenly put anybody's death into the wrong pigeon hole. At least that's my take on it!
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
65. Many suicides
are made to look like accidents for insurance purposes. Stepping into traffic or driving into a bridge abutment at high speed are more common than reported. It's worse than the statistics demonstrate.
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Swagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
67. do they count the deaths of "contractors" (mercenaries) ?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. oh no Swagman no way
:hi:
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. Within limits, yes.
here: http://icasualties.org/oif/Contractors.aspx

with caveats, of course, given the business.

As of June 30, 2007, government figures show 1,001 contractors had died in Iraq since the start of the war.
It is understood that the list below is incomplete.
Please contact us if you have sourced information that would help to fill in blanks.


so, regard it as minimal.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Thank you achtung_circus
I really appreciate the information without the snarkiness, thank you so very much. I'm concerned only with the truth, and find it so unnecessary for some folks to make it so personal
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
70. It Appears This Pentagon Needs to Be Dishonest
so that the people in this country do not force their government to end wars in general. If a war is justifiable, the people will support it. If not, the government needs to lie. This article should really piss Americans off. We are not here for their disposal or to provide them with money to go kill for profits.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
71. & the horror will last for generations
effecting countless family and friends
nevermind the people in Iraq!!


k&r


:hug:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
72. A Republican county judge/Iraq war veteran killed himself recently near here.
"Soon after Lawrence Circuit Judge Richard D. McIntyre was found dead in his garage last week from carbon monoxide poisoning the coroner ruled suicide, rumors swirled about an investigation into possible improprieties involving the highly respected judge and former state representative, who also was a colonel in the U.S. Army National Guard.

Then on Saturday morning, those attending McIntyres funeral in the auditorium at Bedford Middle School heard about the investigation from McIntyres children, who spoke of it and read excerpts referring to the investigation from a suicide note their father left behind.

They defended their father from what his oldest son, Richard D. McIntyre Jr., called an overzealous investigation into the purchase or use of furniture obtained through military contracts...

McIntyre was among 3,400 Indiana National Guard members from the 76th Infantry Brigade Combat Team preparing to deploy to Iraq early next year. He was scheduled to serve as a judicial advocate."...

http://www.tmnews.com/stories/2007/11/05/news.nw-305187...

He had already been to Iraq once - was about to go back. Though it's hard to know what all was going on - he may have been on the verge of being exposed for something he didn't want his family/friends to know about.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
78. Just more manipulated figures...
The casualty figures are manipulated along with the other figures to give the impression that America is still the greatest nation on earth. We have a booming economy, low unemployment, and are winning the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And some fools still want to believe it. So they do. And they keep waving their little flags.

The number of suicides, most if not all the result of post traumatic stress syndrome that the military "diagnoses" as psychosis so they can dump the military men and women onto the streets instead of providing for their care, is an indication of the moral morass that turned out to be quicksand that this country has fallen into and most likely will never escape from. We are, really, a doomed society as well as a doomed nation. We have doomed ourselves with our attitude that we are somehow superior to others. Even within our own house. We have divided our house just as much as the politicans have. Believing in the maxim that to divide is to conquer. But forgetting that a house divided always falls.

There is no real moral outrage on the part of the majority of the American people. If there were, the Democratic leadership would have been run out of Washington by the people along with the Republican leadership.

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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
80. They should look for non-citizen and investigate those numbers

According to the Department of Defense, more than 126 green card service members have been killed while stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan; 93 of them got citizenship only after they died. (US Citizenship and Immigration Services has made it easier for families to apply for posthumous citizenship.)
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-06-20/news/an-army-of-uno/...

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Aragorn Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
83. psychiatric help
Ok, I'm a shrink. My office window, on main street of a small east texas town (about 2000 population) had an upside down flag and lots of articles against the war for the past several years. I have been protested 3 times by the local VFW (I am told by my office neighbors and others) - until they read the articles - which support the troops and point out the risk to them among other issues. Much of that is about the lies, corporations, etc.

15 years ago a texas base wanted me to run their psychiatric program. Not to improve care but to lower costs! I understand that an infamous HMO runs the psychiatric side of treatment there now, and apparently overall.

I get mail offers to do that work for the military every week, it seems.

Here's my questions for DUers. Would you sell out and "pretend" to offer help through an HMO approach or stay in solo practice and help any vet who needs it - for free if necessary? For years I made nursing home rounds on military holidays because of the older vets there, with no family or visitors in many cases. Most nursing homes who take vets do it on contract, with no additional money for doctors' fees. So it hurts the nursing homes if the doctor wants to get paid. Most do. I always did it for free.

But I get protested?
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
85. I wonder how many Americans and X-American soldiers
who are serving as contractors have been killed? They should be counted too and I imagine there are quite a few!

I also wonder if those who died after they returned home are counted? Seems to me I heard only those killed on the battle field are counted.

And what about that article that said depending on whether they were shot in the front of the head or the back of the head determined whether they were counted or not? Any truth to that or was it just rumor? Just wondering? :shrug:
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
86. And don't forget to include private contractors
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 03:29 PM by midlife_mo_Jo
And I don't just mean firms like Blackwater. People are involved in construction, oil business, etc.

This from the WAshington Post in December, 2006:

"There are about 100,000 government contractors operating in Iraq, not counting subcontractors, a total that is approaching the size of the U.S. military force there, according to the military's first census of the growing population of civilians operating in the battlefield.

The survey finding, which includes Americans, Iraqis and third-party nationals hired by companies operating under U.S. government contracts, is significantly higher and wider in scope than the Pentagon's only previous estimate, which said there were 25,000 security contractors in the country."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

How many of those have died? It's my understanding that a significant number of Philipinos are working in Iraq, for instance. I bet they're real dispensable. :sarcasm:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
88. A VETERAN IS A VETERAN IS A VETERAN
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 05:58 PM by seemslikeadream
GULF WAR ILLNESS - CONSPIRACY TEST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvdkdMFVJQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uErdz5NYmI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_hR__sHzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBZ-ZpCExi8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFQJj8Zbdg


Go ahead and fight over the numbers



CBS discovered that in 2005 alone "there were at least 6,256 among those who served in the armed forces. That's 120 each and every week in just one year
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
89. Number of Neocons dead
ZERO
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
92. No, you're wrong in this post...
just like you were wrong here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You're trying to attribute suicides among ALL veterans to a smaller subset of those who served in Iraq. And that's just incorrect.

Sid
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. A VETERAN IS A VETERAN IS A VETERAN
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:54 PM by seemslikeadream
A SUICIDE IS A SUICIDE IS A SUICIDE

A LIAR IS A LIAR IS A LIAR






I wonder why they do this at night Sid?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:54 PM by seemslikeadream
How long do YOU believe the war has been going on Sid?



2 August 1990



and if you think it ended on


28 February 1991

think again


Do you know how many casulitied the DOD said there was in that war when they said it ended?


148


Do you believe that Sid? 148?


Do you know what the real number is Sid?


I wonder why they do this at night Sid?


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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Do you know how many wounded the DOD said there was?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:55 PM by seemslikeadream
467




However, as of the year 2000, 183,000 U.S. veterans of the Gulf War, more than a quarter of the U.S. troops who participated in War, have been declared permanently disabled by the Department of Veterans Affairs



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties


They were lying then they are lying now










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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. But you just keep playing with the numbers help them out so it doesn't look so bad
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:52 PM by seemslikeadream
That's your right, if you want to believe the DOD and they're little game they're playing go ahead be my guest



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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
97. Anybody who believes this Government and their statistics
have to be nuts
This Government Lies and it steals and it hides the truth

Why to keep the anger of the people from erupting but they can't hide it much longer

the screams and cries of families in loss can be heard around the neighborhoods

That wall from Vietnam is going to be small compared to the Persian Gulf war and Iraq War
wait till the real counts come in

People who defend this government's statistics need to understand they LIE

Bush Lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
Just like for years now they have been lying about inflation and the losses from the banks and they lie about how much money it took for the Iraq war and what they spent it on

THEY LIE Everything they say is a LIE
They say they want peace
They want War
THEY LIE
and they will keep on lying if we believe them

Don't empower them refuse to Believe them
They broke the American trust
they will never win it back
Colin Powell lied and he is useless Rove lied Scooter was convicted of Perjury He LIED they just LIE LIE LIE
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
99. Now I know why Rumsfeld never wanted these servicemen to return home.
He knew the psychic trauma of these men/women would be overwhelming and ' bad PR' for him and Cheney.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
100. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error
We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states.


Rathbun did NOT count ALL veterans



The Pentagon has been concealing the true number of American casualties in the Iraq War.
The real number exceeds 15,000 and CBS News can prove it.




3873 Iraq War casualties

CBS News investigative team submits a FOIA request to the DoD asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

DoD sends CBS News a document showing that beween 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. Thats 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only active duty soldiers.

3,873 + 2,200 = 6073




"asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information. "

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.


Rathbun didn't count people who were too old to be Gulf war vets.


In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. Thats 120 each and every week, in just one year.


3,873 + 6,256 = 10129

What you have there is the 3,873 official number + THE NUMBER OF VETERAN SUICIDES IN 45 STATES IN ONLY ONE YEAR


...

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans,

...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_ ...

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. And if you completed that last paragraph, you'd see where the mistake Whitney made was
"One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000)"

At that rate, to get the 6,256 suicides would need a total number of veterans of 100,000 * 6,256 / 31.9 (taking the higher limit) - which is about 19,600,000. Clearly there aren't over 19 million Iraq War veterans - the US military is nowhere near that big. Also clearly, the number being talked about is the suicide total for all veterans. Take the quoted rate of 20.8 per 100,000, and that comes from a total number of veterans of 100,000 * 6,256 / 20.8 = 30 million. A figure of 30 million veterans, about 1 in 10 of the US population, is believable when it's veterans of all ages - including all those drafted in past years, and those in the military over a span of decades.

Whitney got it wrong. The CBS report is talking about suicides of veterans of all ages. The rate is still appalling, of course, for the young veterans. Between two and four times higher than civilians the same age is indicative of severe problems that need action now, or the deaths will continue, horribly.
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