I've got a very bad feeling about this party & it's getting worse.

[Jackpine Radical]

there is something very, very wrong with the Democratic leadership. As in--I swear--criminally wrong. You see it most in the recent actions of Feinstein, Schumer, Pelosi & Hoyer (with the background of DLC manipulations by the likes of Ford & Carville). They're all acting like 5th Columnists, like thoroughgoing sellouts. They're not representing their constituencies at all on the war, health care, Mukasey, impeachment, the environment--nothing! There is something much deeper and more sinister going on than mere chickenshit clinging to the "center," or simple fear of bing labelled "soft on terror."

[AndyA]

1. Well, I have no idea what is really going on, but I do know that these

people are NOT doing their jobs! They are ignoring their oaths of office, ignoring the demands of their constituents, and allowing the Constitution to be compromised.

In short, they're just as bad as Bush and Cheney!

They need to go! ALL OF THEM!!

[truedelphi]

53. Feinstein took her contempt for her constituents

To a totally new low when she refused to listen to the citizenry of San Francisco pleading that the Blue Angels not come and fly over the city at the end of the summer.

Just weeks before, a Blue ANgels jet had crashed into houses below during another air show.

Such an air crash can be disastrous in California. San Francisco is heavily populated, and last winter left the city drier than normal. One crash could take out several apartment buildings, and the resulting fire could be a catastrophe.

Yet Feinstein was on TV babbling on about how her contacts with people indicated that the "True" San Franciscan was proud of our country and wanted the Blue Angels.

[Cha]

181. Such demagoguery dribble..

They must think they're pretty much all that..they can go on tv and say anything and no ONE can touch them. They've got it all sewn up. Corporatemediawhores, Corporatewhores..well oiled machine. And, those pesky people better know their place.

Thank the Universe Al Gore invented the internet.

[Cronopio]

204. That's it. They don't expect their lies to be believed, just tolerated.

GWB has set the new standard.

[Cha]

282. I'm here to tell them their lies will NOT

be tolerated. They think because they have the corporatewhoremedia behind them that they can say anything and we have to swallow it..they're so entrenched in the Belt that the rude awakening will be cataclysmic for their greedy, tiny brains.

[Cronopio]

338. Well said. :)

[Benhurst]

232. They should have been renamed The Angels of Death.

[nvme]

244. their performance

My only suggestion is do a 2006 all over again vote the bums out. I am sure they will face challenges within the party. Don't let them claim "they found religion" when election time comes. those in their districts don't feel bad my congressman is a rep. koolaid drinker. take heart.

[defendandprotect]

327. We have a really bad situation with HOYER . .. !!!

[lvx35]

2. Agreed. Take my rep, Baird.

Olympia WA is the home of the Evergreen state college and one of THE most liberal places around. Completely anti-war. This whole district...

Anyway, Baird goes off to Iraq, and comes back totally pro-war. He says its "his conscience" that compells him...All I know is that something, or someone, is indeed compelling him, because he is pissing in the face of 98% of his own constituency by doing it.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. That's an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Not just the average Dem, but the average American is now to the left of the party leadership.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Baird is also the representative of Centralia/Chehalis/Vancouver

His district is not just Olympia.

[lvx35]

70. The majority of his constituency is very anti-war, trust me. nt

[lazyriver]

87. I went to ESC for a year back in 1994...

It was the most liberal college (no majors!) in the most liberal town (drum circles in the park most weekends) I've ever seen. Even the rednecks I lived near on the western "city" limits were liberal. God I miss that place...watching the king salmon run under the 4th Ave. bridge was a favorite fall activity after class.

[lvx35]

94. Yeah, that's my alma mater!

it really is beautiful here, I agree. And very liberal. I often find myself on the comparatively conservative side of issues, even though by national standards I am extremely liberal.

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. My brother is a geoduck

That pronounced "Gooey-duck" for those unacquainted.

My point is that there is a world of difference between the politics of west olympia and the politics of Centralia/Chehalis. They shoot wobblies there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_Massacre_(Washington)

I live about 30 minutes west of you - just outside Baird's district.

[nannah]

277. another greener checking in

do you live in the Elma area?

baird was always a bit of a sell out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

281. Graduated from Elma. Live in Monte now. n/t

:hi:

[nannah]

302. i work in aberdeen.

my son lives in monte. small world. :hi:

[gateley]

149. I went to Evergreen, too! nt

[lvx35]

192. Go greener! When did you graduate? nt

[windbreeze]

174. Yeah, and I ain't gonna forget it either....

he no longer gets my vote...wb

[Cha]

182. I wonder what it was about the

killing in Iraq that made him think there should be more of it? And, especially since it was misbegotten in the first place..nothing good is ever going to come out of that..they can put all the lipstick in the world on it and it's still innocent blood.

[Frisbee]

231. And yet...

Most of these sell-outs will be re-elected. Over and over again.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. May I suggest Alka Selter? There's nothing wrong w/this party

Adults are in charge and making choices. Yes, they are protecting *, but there are hazards we do not have to face.

[Occulus]

8. Wow.

Just... wow.


...


























I'm still trying to parse that.

You said, "There's nothing wrong w/this party..."

And THEN you said, "Yes, they are protecting *..."

And you say there's nothing wrong with the party?




Wow.

Just.... wow.

[Fredda Weinberg]

12. We can't destroy this opponent. We have to somehow continue

to co-exist, but reimpose a sense of morality. If it starts with us, so be it.

[Hydra]

19. If we can't destroy this opponent

Then democracy here in the USA does not exist.

If that is the case, why are we bothering to go to the polls? They're selecting our leaders for us.

[Fredda Weinberg]

27. I'm a first generation American w/no illusions. Please, can be be real for a moment?

This is a republic w/a representative legislature. It has been debated since the beginning whether we hire congress critters to serve our dictate or use best judgment. In this case, I've heard the arguments and know what's at stake.

Why bother to go to polls? I do it because it makes me feel good. I participate in the political process, even campaigning in the street, for my favorite candidate. Did it for Mario Cuomo and HRC. The rest get my $$$ if they deserve it.

[Ecumenist]

48. No, Illusions??!! I am a woman of Very mixed heritage with some of my

bloodlines going back several thousand years here. Do you honestly understand what you're saying? You don't keep handing the keys to a drunk, crackhead after this person has repeatedly crashed the car, damaged several buildings and killed a couple of kids, a grandmother, 2 dogs and a parakeet!

Your premise makes NO SENSE at all, no matter how much I twist my head to try to understand.

[Fredda Weinberg]

49. I'm describing what is. Others are having issues. n/t

[puebloknot]

218. I'm sorry to inform you that we *all* are having issues. Things like...

...loss of habeus corpus, torture, treason in high places.

Anyone with two neurons firing knows we're in a world of hurt. "Having issues" is psycho-babble. I'm afraid that therapy talk is not going to cut it at this point in our history!

[Fredda Weinberg]

239. Yes and action is the best antidote to anxiety

Having campaigned to place my candidate where she is poised today, I can relax and enjoy the show. Her performance is brilliant, isn't it?

And helping the Democratic Party to regain both houses of congresses was an accomplishment in which we can all take pride. Did you contribute? I did.

So let's continue to appreciate DU and stop acting like this these are the final days.

[frylock]

283. Her performance is brilliant, isn't it?

that explains your delusional posts. just keep on sipping that kool-aid.

[Fredda Weinberg]

351. Funny, but I remember when people claimed HRC was unelectable

in NY state. I suppose I was delusional then, but we prevailed. My candidate continues to campaign in a disciplined, principled way. I'm proud to have attended parades on her behalf and hand out literature. I even argued with detractors and often, came away with converts.

Kool aid? This is success. Honestly, I fail to see why you have trouble with it. If the system doesn't work - let's fix it - and our congressional leadership continues to keep the proverbial eye on the prize.

[nadinbrzezinski]

306. And this legislature is acting in paralells to any

dysfuncitional legislature in a fascist shift

If you cannot see that... then we can't help you

[puebloknot]

352. Your therapeutic suggestions may be appreciated by some, Fredda..

...but not by me. This message has no context, but that's allright, don't bother getting back to me with your "clarification."

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. You should start readying the foundational papers of this country

and it tells me your country of origin was already a dictatorship

I share the feeling that they have to work to steal my votes

But as another FIRST GEN Ameircan... you are WRONG

You are accepting the standard that applies to so many authoritarian regimes around the world as the norm... not what
the founders expected this country to be

Then again...

A republic madam, only if you choose to keep it...

[Fredda Weinberg]

86. This is my country of origin and who the heck were the founding

fathers anyway? They did the best they could under their circumstances ... ours differ.

I'm doing what I can for our republic - I don't even require your support. So please, I'm doing more than expressing my opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. and you think the rest of us are not?

sorry, we are the rabble

Got it.

I may not be invited to the soiress, but I have done quite a bit already.

[Fredda Weinberg]

152. I chose my life - if you want to consider us rabble that's your problem

Here we are using modern technology to organize around our interests and you see us as anything less than privileged? Talk about losing perspective ...

I detect the resentment in your tone, but I'm not responsible for the circumstances. Have a great life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Fredda you really need to learn how to read

and chiefly understand

you, and people LIKE YOU, consider the rest of us, the ones who would like JUSTICE and do not enable fascists, the rable.

You really need to read

And resentment, no...

Surprise that you didn't learn the lessons of history? Not really

Each group has anywhere from 20-30% who either need leaders or want to be those leaders and lead the rabble, for their own good, by the nose.

I know the type... whether his last name is Friedman, or Strauss... and you fall neatly in that group.

Perhaps you shold add to the readying list Broken Government by John Dean... and perhaps you will get this... you are the one being led... by the nose.. and the first one that will suffer, for the authoritarian system being set up, eats its own

And that resentment you THINK you see... take a mirror... and most importantly use it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

236. Remember the French revolution? What happened to the leaders?

Please, we can debate what to do, but it's not personal. I find your quest for justice noble, but frankly a waste of time.

When my father was separated from his family and knew they were dead, he didn't respond in rage; he channeled his ferocious anger into action and organization. By the end of the war, he'd done all he could to help others and paid the personal price. Only when his side stood victorious did he indulge his vendetta.

He wanted us to learn that anyone can be driven to madness - so as I judge others I remember my lessons. Whatever tortures you, it wasn't me.

As for leadership, I only need to point out that I have never sought elective office and my activities are totally public. That's as far away from the Communists, Jacobins and Illuminati as I can behave. There's nothing for you to criticize, hence my observation that you carry your resentment with you.

[1monster]

255. Oh my God. Fighting for JUSTICE is a "WASTE of TIME."

Please, we can debate what to do, but it's not personal. I find your quest for justice noble, but frankly a waste of time.

Let's undo all the Civil Rigthts Legislation and Amendments. After all, fighting for justice is a "waste of time."

Nullify the results of fighting and winning World War II. After all, fighting for justice is a "waste of time."

And the women's sufferage Amendment. After all, fighting for justice is a "waste of time."

Let's reverse the results of the Civil War which resulted in ending slavery. After all, fighting for justice is a "waste of time.

Tear up the Constitution. The Articles of Confederation were less just than it and fighting for justice is a "waste of time."

Reverse the positions of the winners and losers of the Revolutionary War. After all, fighting for justice is "a waste of time."

Let's go back and tear up the Magna Carta before it became the basis for justice for the next 800 years. After all, fighting for justice is just a "waste of time."

I'm not sure you understand the underlying beliefs that founded this country. True, our leaders have rarely lived up to all of the standards set forth by the writers of the Constitution, but most of us have at least tried to.

With attitudes like yours, supposedly on the side of Angels, who needs the Dark Side of the Force? We are already doomed.

[Fredda Weinberg]

286. That's poor reading comprehension, but understandable

You're trying to make a point, but ignoring what I actually wrote. Never mind ... like the religious bigots you claim to despise, you need to have a monopoly on virtue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

309. Pot call kettle

by the way... you really, and I mean this, REALLY need to step away from the kool-aid and read the books I have recommended

Start with Klein.. and follow that with Hannah Arend't the Banality of Evil

And you really need to stop acting the way you are... beause quite frankly you are not a progressive, nor are you on the side of justice.

You may think you are doing some good... but Arrendt had your number... and evil is quite banal

[Fredda Weinberg]

313. Ah, so I'm evil incarnate now? How droll n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

321. By their actions you shall know their fruit

if you enable evil, you become part of it.

And so far you have justiied letting criminals walk

The illusion of justice

And autocratic rule.

you tell me...

By their actions you shall know their fruit

[Fredda Weinberg]

324. How childish. I've explained several times that maturity means

repressing natural impulses. If you witness evil, you don't go charging in ... develop a plan and act. That will give you succor to handle circumstances you can't change ... you know, nachama.

But if the world is black or white - and you have to have what you want now - then I'll have to wait until you've learned some painful lessons about life. In the meantime, our leaders in DC appear to be keeping their eyes on things that really matter right now - and have earned our support.

[nadinbrzezinski]

326. How Straussian of you

:-)

Ryand also had chapters on that

[1monster]

334. Fredda, I don't think you know me well enough to say that I claim to despise

religious bigots.

And my reading comprehension is really good. Better than most.

Perhaps you need to rephrase your views to better suit you meaning if I don't get what your are trying to say.

(What was that quote attributed to Nixon that always made me laugh? "I know you believe you understand what I just said, but I'm not sure you realize that what I said was not what I meant.")

[Fredda Weinberg]

350. I have no problem responding - so please continue n/t

[Lerkfish]

285. you're lamenting the french revolution?

er...ok.

let them eat cake!

[Fredda Weinberg]

287. There's a reason the French call it the the Reign of Terror

Do you get all your history lessons from Hollywood?

[Lerkfish]

293. The french revolution was a necessary recalibration of a fundamental

wrong.

[Fredda Weinberg]

294. Agreed, but as intelligent beings, we can avoid the excesses

My sociology teachers were careful to distinguish between intellectual processes - and mob rule. I stand with those who assert that we elect leaders to practice judgment on our behalf, which should reduce the influence of popular sentiment. But as you notice even in this thread, there are some dramatic forces that demand to be heard.

Had the French nobility responded differently, could the terror have been avoided? I say yes, based upon this country's history after the great depression. Learning from that lesson, I support our congressional leaders' agenda, even while it deprives me of emotional satisfaction.

Yeah, I want justice - but I'll never get it. So what? There's work to be done.

[Arugula Latte]

297. Fredda -- Your series of posts is one of the most depressing things I've read on DU. Ever.

Your "let's just go along and get along and not rock the boat" is exactly the reason we're up this crap-filled creek with no paddle.

[Fredda Weinberg]

298. Not rock the boat? I was shouting in the streets, man!

And one of us is willing to yell at cops - yes, raise my voice - to change conditions around me. Of course they don't hassle me, but the kids they do batter grow up to mug my momma.

Depressing? I'm one of the happiest people you'll ever be privileged to meet ... sorry you never got to study under the one of the greatest teachers who ever lived, but I don't have to share my mother anymore. We had a great decade and started the first kids, cops and computer cut crime program together.

Get along? Yes, because the slogan, "No justice, no peace" is meaningless if you think the situation is hopeless. The trick is to take on circumstances you can control ... remember think global, act local? Well, DU is an exception, but it has served us well and continues to deserve my support.

Please, don't let anything I say upset you. I've heard the most depressing stories possible and smile as I pass others in public. Online, it's hard to communicate joy ... but I share whenever I can, because I recognize how precious life is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

310. Now here is your Straussian argument

not trusting the mob.

Thanks for proving your neocon leanings here.

And I told you yesterday we thought we were the rabble and you reacted by trying to distort it.

Game, match set.

Are you sure you never signed the PNAC plan?

And I am serious...

And are you that afraid of modernity? Like a god Sraussian or Objectivist that is?

[Fredda Weinberg]

320. Which one of us is better read? I don't care for Strauss and

abandoned Objectivism years ago because of its internal contradiction: how do you explain why a woman becomes a mother? It was Rand's worst chapter.

Afraid of modernity? I'm the only one in my parochial school class to make the transition from the sacred to the secular world. I'm a computer engineer, for Pete's sake ... Millie ain't more modern.

I remember the rise of the neo-cons ... they emerged because of a nasty tone that the left, and you in particular, represent. In other words, if we can't get along, I have no incentive to accomodate you.

Want to turn this around or continue the hostile tone you established?

[nadinbrzezinski]

322. What hostile tone

and all your arguments have been out of Ryands and Strauss's work

if you have abandoned them... well, it does not show

And you established that tone early on

I just like to point how wrong you are.

Never Forget... and in my case, don't let it happen again...

[nadinbrzezinski]

307. WOW! now we have entered into weird territory

I guess Nuremberg then was a waste of time, and so were the Tokyo War Trials.

After all, they were about JUSTICE.

You sure you learned from history or you just like to enable folks because you are SO AFRAID inside that now you need to JUSTIFY your enabling evil?

I think your father would have a cow if he knew you were enabling a fascist shift

[Mme. Defarge]

278. THEY

ALL put their lives on the line. THEY ALL were under a death sentence.

[Fredda Weinberg]

295. They were human, all male and exclusively white. Their decisions

bear little relevance to my experiences today. Fortunately for all of us, this country has moved beyond the founding fathers' limitations.

[Mme. Defarge]

308. With all due respect

get over yourself.

[Forrest Greene]

119. That Is Exactly What "They" Want

"I do it because it makes me feel good." And one of the worst reasons for voting I have ever heard.

[TAZller]

200. Oh give me a break...

Even a bad reason for voting is a good reason for voting... Unless of course you are sticking the polling station up your hoohaw feeling good about voting is the epitomy of patriotism....

[Forrest Greene]

354. "...sticking the polling station up your _hoohaw_"???

Infantile too, huh?

[John Q. Citizen]

191. This is an empire. Don't be so naive.

[Fredda Weinberg]

296. Of course it is. So what? Should Jefferson have ignored the Barbary pirates?

I appreciate Washington's sentiments about avoiding entanglements, but 9/11 broke the issue home. Now, the question remains, will we survive as we slowly regain our national sanity? I assert we can.

[nadinbrzezinski]

323. You surely have heard the term blowback

9.11 is a classic case of blowback

By the way... do tell me... why did bush let OBL escape at Tora Bora before the Iraq war?

Read 1984 for an idea of a needed enemy

By the way we are in the midst of a fascist shist

The danger is real, but not as great as it has been made to be.

But made to be is a classic of a fascist shift... one of the critical steps... and does not matter if your name is Mussolini, Franco, Stalin, Hitler or in this case George, an externam enemy is critical.

So connect dots Freda.

[Fredda Weinberg]

343. How childish to keep misspelling my name ... is this flame bait?

I remember how 1984 ends - and escaped the trap that life set for me. Obviously, you're still in some pain.

But one final aphorism, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but ... but keep your eyes open." At least, that's the version I prefer. It's also a winning campaign theme, so we might as well embrace it for the campaign season.

[cutlassmama]

196. Pretty much, yep. The voting machines are rigged.

Congress members are either being threatened or blackmailed or just in it for lobby money. They all need to go. Every last one of them...except for Kuchinich.

[pokercat999]

216. There's a simple solution, one term and out FOREVER, nt

[Ecumenist]

20. Wha??? Huh?? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Why can't this "opponent" be destroyed?? That would go a long way towards getting things back on the right track... I don't understand what you're saying at all. Sounds like some sort of philosophical claptrap and it makes as much sense as a mud window.

[Fredda Weinberg]

33. Try asking a question. The opponent can't be destroyed because it represents

interests that are vital to our continued success as a nation/state in the modern world. History cannot be reversed and if * has to be protected for the next generation to have a chance at prosperity - I'll take the trade off.

I'm following developments in Pakistan ... the questionably legitimate regime's paralysis is letting all heck break loose. You're worried about scoring political points when the responsibility for handling this mess will surely fall on our candidate's shoulders?

Please, spare me the drama. I want satisfaction as much as you ... but the responsible party has priorities I respect.

[Occulus]

39. The Bush maladministration represents NOTHING "vital to our continued success..."

Where ARE you coming from?

"if * has to be protected for the next generation to have a chance at prosperity - I'll take the trade off."

I imagine people said the same thing when Nixon resigned and Ford pardoned everyone. Unfortunately, we now know that action to be absolutely, ruinously shortsighted.

These people have to pay for their crimes this time so their supporters aren't back in power thirty years hence. As I'm sure you know quite well, many of the "movers and shakers" of this maladministration- some of them in very powerful, prominent positions, such as the VP- were architects of Nixon's policies regarding the Presidency and its powers. In fact, Cheney himself stated recently that if you want to know what he means by "the unitary executive", go read what he wrote thirty years ago.

If we follow your advice, we will be ignoring history, and dooming ourselves to repeat it.

We should ignore your advice.

[Fredda Weinberg]

57. Do you remember Watergate? It was a national trauma I don't want to relive

Let * skulk out of office ... history will judge him harshly, as he has earned. The Democratic Party has control of the legislature and I feel better already. Next year is crucial and I've done what I can to contribute.

[Occulus]

68. Actually, I don't. I was about a year or two old at the time.

Thus, unlike those who actually lived through it, I can see the entire history of the whole shebang very dispassionately, and from where I sit, your generation LET these people come back by NOT having enough spine to deal with them. Thus, our current mess.

If we allow this maladministration to skulk off, as you seem to be willing to do, we most assuredly will be allowing this to all happen again a generation from now. History, Fredda, also condemn Nixon, but that didn't even slow down the lackeys in the shadows that enabled all of it then, and who are enabling it now.

I want a national trauma in this regard. That trauma needs to take place. Like a cancer that a doctor cuts out with a scalpel, hurting a little bit now to avoid hurting- or dying- later, this maladministration must be held to account. If you're willing to simply let them go, and do nothing to hold them to a reckoning of their crimes, then objectively speaking you're just as bad as they are.

Your silence and inaction = your assent.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. You didn't say this

My generation dealt with Nixon, which is why * needs protecting. He's violated every post Watergate protection the "class of 74" instituted. So, learn more and appreciate your elders.

So we need to protect junior since he violated the law?

:eyes:

[Occulus]

121. "My generation dealt with Nixon, which is why * needs protecting."

:wow: :wow: :wow:

That's all I need to know and ever needed to know about you.

on edit:

"So, learn more and appreciate your elders."

What a childish thing to say.

[Richard Steele]

128. Sometimes, "respecting our elders" means placing them in a nice "managed care" environment.

If they no longer have the faculties to
deal with the real world on their own.

When Grandma starts spouting nonsensical crap like:
"My generation dealt with Nixon, which is why * needs protecting",
it's time to start reading the rest-home brochures.

:silly:

[WillyT]

Self-Delete... Duplicate Post...

:shrug:

[WillyT]

189. LOL !!!

:rofl:

[Fredda Weinberg]

237. And I was there for each of my parents. No home for them.

As a first generation American I was shocked to see others let their parents be cared for by strangers. My mother's final word was, "Good."

Yes, I respect my elders - and for good reason. Even primates know this is helpful adaptive behavior.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

331. Yes, adult children (most often daughters) are supposed to give up their lives

To spend what could very well be decades caring for aging parents. I don't know what your mother's care entailed but very often it means literally doing everything - bathing, dressing, feeding, and toileting -for the person while trying to raise your own children, with little to no support from the government or the community. Ever hear the phrase "sandwich generation"?

Yeah, you keep clucking your tongue at people who make a different choice with their elders' care than you did. Your opinion on that has about as much credibility as your whacked out defense of selling out to the neo-cons.

[Fredda Weinberg]

238. And what, my anonymous friend, is the beginning of wisdom? n/t

[Occulus]

280. I am not your monkey. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. And becuase he was not impeached

and was given a pardon, we are where we are

Why do you insist on giving criminals a pass and allowing the leadership to treat you like a child?

[Fredda Weinberg]

82. I remember Ford's decision ... and yes, it was totally bogus

But we could be worse - there was questionable legitimacy back then as well. I don't know if you remember the Italian terrorists then, the Red Brigades ... or the Puerto Rican nationalist threat - shooting up the floor of congress ain't fun times. But nostalgia's pleasant and hindsight is always 20-20.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Tools of a police state

involke an external enemy and make it larger than it truly is

I guess it worked charms with you.

Sorry for calling them as I see them.. but you would do well to read Naomi Wolf

On add

hannah Arend as well

[Usrename]

202. I don't understand your argument on this. Huh?

A lot of those criminals from the past are intimately involved in this administration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3029190&mesg_id=3029513

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ledeen

Not to mention six others criminals that were pardoned by Poppy Bush and then hired by Dubya:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_contra#Persons_involved_pardoned_and_reinstated

How does letting these criminals romp free to commit more mayhem help us, exactly?

I am confused by your argument.

[Fredda Weinberg]

289. I'm describing what is. I wanted Nixon indicted, but I also wanted

the criminals in Iran Contra to see jail time. Yes, that would have changed history - but not necessarily for the better.

Right now, however, I want to see our party back in office - and am willing to let the history books expose the villains for what they really are. The public will not get behind whatever is seen a political payback, however much I would enjoy the spectacle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

314. History explose their crimes, like what the BCCI scandal

that is ALL but common knowledge and why the usual suspects are back?

What history are you defending Freda? And yes you mistrust, to put it midly, the mob. the rabble, your ideas are quite Straussian and Monarchists in tone... and if this Democratic party is a reflection of you... not any improvement either.

[Fredda Weinberg]

317. This nation was founded on mistrust of the mob - and that was

before the Reign of Terror. History is replete with examples and you ignore it at your personal peril.

I don't have to defend history - but explanations are helpful to those unlike yourself who have not invested in education. Perspective explains, if not always in a satisfactory way, why decisions went the way they did.

We can debate what happened and the lessons learned, but I'd appreciate if you took the time to spell my name properly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

325. I didn't invest in education?

classic ad hominen attack

Not only I have... but I also have worked for organizations that try to prevent genocide or work for humanity, not against humanity

Try again.

[Fredda Weinberg]

341. You're funny ... read the sentence again. I tried to pay you a compliment

But you're obviously not receptive. How sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

344. No, you engaged in an ad hominen attack and now are trying to make a funny

didn't work, did it?

[Fredda Weinberg]

349. You still don't get it. Why do have a problem with sincerity?

I don't mind disagreeing with people agreeably.

[nadinbrzezinski]

356. an ad hominen was an agreeable disagreement

ok.

Have a good day...

By the way.. Greg Palast has your number.

;-)

[Usrename]

340. So your argument is that only the mob must answer to the law.

The rule of law is only for the unwashed masses and the elites can do whatever they wish, torture whomever they wish, and remain above the reach of any other authority.

Is that your argument?

When has that ever worked in the past? Shees.

[Fredda Weinberg]

342. Let's see ... the English beheaded a king to prove the point

and while we may agree that *'s questionably legitimate regime deserves the full Nurenberg trial treatment, I have heard our leaderships arguments that this is not the time and accept their reasoning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

345. And enable evil

thank you

[RaleighNCDUer]

290. Are you trying to confuse the issue?

Half the incidents attributed to the Red Brigades were committed by the Italian intelligence service. This is known.

The Puerto Ricans shooting up congress happened in the 50s.

I think it is YOU who is confused.

[JackRiddler]

145. I remember Watergate -

meaning the Nixon resignation. I was nine years old, and it was a rockin' party we need to have at about 10 times the volume right now.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

208. "you are the filth and shame your ancestors"

holy shit. how can you? I disagree with just about everything that poster has written, but your comment is far more shameful than anything she's said. Calling another long time poster here filth, says something about you.

[lligrd]

209. I Remember Watergate. It Was What Gave Me The Illusion

that people really cared that our leaders followed the law and were held accountable. Apparently, I was wrong.

[proReality]

235. Basically you just said 'let the ruthless criminal walk out of the courtroom, the

neighbors will shun him because he deserves that kind of harsh punishment.'

I'm a very tolerant person, but there is no way I'll turn my back on ruthless criminals while they roam free and are able to collaborate with buddies who are also running free through the neighborhood, planning their next dirty deed.

I believe you may be wearing rose-tinted glasses and warm, fuzzy slippers to insulate yourself from the cold truth of what is blowing around us from representatives who don't represent. I feel terrible for you and wish you the best when it comes to the rude awakening.

[1monster]

257. I do remember Watergate, and at the time I supported Nixon (I was young folks and had grown

up in a very conservative area). However, within a few months of Nixon's resignation, I had left home and began learning about the inner workings of the Nixon White House.

The impeachment proceedings against Nixon were spot on, and had he not resigned, he would have been JUSTLY (I know justice is a "waste of time"} removed from office.

Ford did this counry and its citizens a GREAT diservice in pardoning Nixon.

We cannot allow the abuses of power, justice, and our Constitution go unanswered this time. If we do, then democratic republic is over. We will become more and more like China: nominally one form of government, but in truth a robber baron autocracy driven by the quest for money and power by the few with the rest of us slaves to the system.

And we are nearly there already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. The DLC... those are the classic talking point when it comes

to foreign affairs for the DLC

[Ecumenist]

42. Whaaa? He's bloody destroying EVERYTHING, FREDDA!!

I don't mean this in s bad, I honestly don't but do you really live on the same planet, in the same country as I do, 'cause I don't understand where you premise comes from.

[Fredda Weinberg]

51. Mebbe not. But my political work was profiled on the evening news

so I guess I know something of what I'm talking about. You aint' gonna get rid of criminals ... but it is possible to get real and live in peace.

[Ecumenist]

59. Bullshit...Evil thrives when good men DO NOTHING, Fredda..

Things were "peaceful" in the the late 19th century when my ancestors were lynched for just trying to live a life everyone else was living. Just to vote or to live anywhere they wanted etc. You speak about being a first generation and it shows. I come from people who had bounties placed on their heads like they were animals because they just happened to be living on land the certain others felt belonged to them via Manifest Destiny. Sorry, this bunch seems determined to destroy this country and the greater part of the planet.

[Fredda Weinberg]

61. So I'm the enemy? You hate me the Palestinians hate Israelis?

Y'know, if I hated Germans the way you resent those you think did you wrong, I'd be a mess. But I bet you have a family ... very few survived of mine, but I could have rational discussion of my father, who witnessed the Germans' descent into madness. I see the signs ... but we're not there in this country yet.

I bid you peace ... really, I don't mean you harm.

[Ecumenist]

67. Fredda, where'd that come from? I don't harbour any hate against you

If you're Jewish, there is alot we have in common. I would think that you would have more of a perspective about the things we're trying to prevent. AS it applies to losing family members to hate, yes, I have lost several to just that. Being HUNG, SHOT...just because their skin colour was different. Let's not get into a semantic argument about man's inhumanity to man.

The thing is that we're trying to prevent the descent into madness that your father witnessed, that many Americans were subjected to. I was named in honour of a woman who'd survived Bergen Belsen and am a mixed black Woman married to a Bohemian Czech man who has strong Ashkenazi bloodlines. I see things happening here that is indicating a backslide into a time of insanity that most people who immigrated here never saw.

[Fredda Weinberg]

93. I understand insanity. That's why I post here. We really are making progress

in my lifetime I didn't expect. Last year's election mattered and so will next's ... but maturity means suppressing natural impulses and justice, as you know, is a luxury our people's have never enjoyed.

Now, please excuse me, but I've had time because I'm waiting on a provision. I've gotta get back to work now, but I'm glad we met each other and look forward to sharing happier events.

[Richard Steele]

130. Fredda's throwing out a LOT of completely unrelated crap on this thread.

Obviously, she feels her argument can't stand on its own.
Why else add the insulting nonsense to it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. We are moving there because you refuse to speak

against this evil...

Never forget

And yes my family also lost fifty people in Trebinka.

You know, they died because men of good conscience refused to speak up.

Congratulations.. your tactics enable the same actions.

[Fredda Weinberg]

89. Nonsense. My father saw it and there were plenty who spoke up

They died first. Now, if you want to discuss tactics, I can tell you how my father survived Hitler ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. So did my Father so?

I guess you are taking the same tactics your father took.

I'd rather die free... than on my knees

hard concept to understand I guess

[Fredda Weinberg]

97. On his knees? He wrecked the trains taking victims to the camps

I'm just sorry he couldn't help your family - or my own. But he had skills - something modern Americans don't appreciate in a globalized world. Political skills as well, as he navigated between the Soviets and other occupiers after the war.

Sorry you're having difficulty with these concepts, but if you want to discuss issues worth dying for ... I could tell you stories about standing in front of a former crack house, waiting to give computer lessons to the neighborhood kids. But if all you want is conflict, then you become my opponent - as I say, if you want to live like a dog, be willing to die like one.

And thus is civilization born. See my tagline for details and as I go back to work this afternoon ... I bid you peace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. You can't read can you

My father made it... he survived

But you cannot see that you NEED TO STAND UP TO EVIL WHEN EVIL COMES

Sorry if the concept is escaping

Read Niemuhler's Moral man in an Immoral society...

read Wolf

Read Klien

Read Arendt

And stop enabling evil

[Occulus]

116. .

:thumbsup:

[Fredda Weinberg]

300. Don't be foolish. Stand up when you can act. Wait until the right moment

My father didn't just survive ... he conquered his survivor's guilt with action. I have other relatives and none were as functional as he turned out to be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

318. If you say so

you still didn't learn the principal lesson

YOU CONFRONT EVIL

But you are also mistrustful of the nob... and mob rule... aka the vox populi, aka us the little people.

You already took the mask off, as a Straussian. I will remind you Leo Strauss defened the methods of the Nazi state, since he feared the excesses of the Russian Revolution.

He also feared the exceses of the rabble... and modernity and said that lying to the people for their own good was a-okay.. even commiting crimes to protect them. And in many ways, these are the arguments you are making... as well as Mr Krystol of the New Standard... who is a Neocon. Your talking points are comming STRAIGHT out of both the Neocon Movement and the Objectivist thought system.

Were you a student of Leo Strauss, is that the teacher you reffered to? Are you a product of the Chicago School?

[Ecumenist]

111. Amen, NadinBrzezinski... As a mixed black daughter of this country, I don't know how many folks

I lost in to lynching, That were "disappeared" because they spoke out, etc and this was here in the good old US of A. Himself is descended from Bohemian Czechs that died in camps in WWII and under the soviet occupation afterward.

I was raised with Jews that still had their numbers on their wrists, who would cry when they saw the way people were treated in the south in the 50's, 60's and 70's. because they experienced the dogs being turned on them and water hoses - the whole bit. As I said earlier, I am named in honour of a woman who had survived Bergen Belsen but died of brain cancer right before I was born. I was always taught that you have to take a stand because by not saying anything to stop evil, you give tacit approval to commit that evil. I just don't get Fredda, she's the most arrogant oligarch I have ever had the misfortune to run across here on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. It is a whole group actually

She just writes better

:-)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

140. wat u sed.

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Listening to Naomi Klein right now on the rethread

and my lord she made a great point.

The work of hard historical remembrance is the real insulator in times of crisis

[Zhade]

159. You may not mean it, but you're supporting it.

YOU are the type of person fascism thrives on.

[conscious evolution]

69. 15 minutes of fame

do not make one an expert on politics.
You are talking about the evening news that has been bought and co-opted by the same criminals who are wrecking our country?
If so that explains a lot.

[Fredda Weinberg]

76. That's funny ... cause they say "I don't work for you"

I mean, MSM is straight up - the stories are for advertisers. But sometimes, when you reduce crime noticeably at no public expense, they gotta take notice.

Sorry you're totally cynical at this point, but I'll continue my work w/authorities because I ain't no anarchist. You may rail at reality, but I've been busy for a long time.

Conscious evolution? Hardly. If you were, you'd be sanguine, because that is a philosophical pose. Hysteria is for children.

[conscious evolution]

108. Thanks for the laugh.

A good belly laugh does wonders.

[Zhade]

160. Continue being a good German. We won't forget.

You are despicable.

[Occulus]

126. "But my political work was profiled on the evening news"

Okay, back that shit up, Fredda. Which, and when, and what network?

Links would be welcome. I doubt you'll provide them.

[Fredda Weinberg]

355. Sorry, query kids cops computer cut crime on youtube

it's the easiest way to share.

[Zhade]

156. YOU ARE COMPLICT WITH MURDERERS FOR EXCUSING THEIR ACTIONS.

NT!

[Cronopio]

207. The funniest thing about your post is the Axelrod quote.

The "evolution of cooperation" can be used for evil purposes as well as good, can't it?

[puebloknot]

219. Try reading about Petain's Vichy government. He got real! nt

[rateyes]

229. You are clueless about this. Clueless. nt

[Clark2008]

66. Problem is that these interests are NOT making America

successful.

People are out of work and, mostly, underpaid. The prices of housing, food, automobiles, clothes, gasoline, energy, etc. keep rising while wages are stagnant, erasing the middle class.

The dollar is flopping worse than a fish on a schooner deck.

And, most Americans now say they are unhappy.

How is that successful?

[Fredda Weinberg]

84. Compared to whom? This is still a first world nation.

We are experiencing a reduction in our standard of living ... but last year's election proved the American people aren't totally brain dead. We have articulate candidates and important policy proposals. If you really care, then get behind those who represent *our* interests.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. I swear this defense is amazing

given the WHO statistics and the less than stellar response to Katrina....

[Jim Sagle]

177. Her defense boils down to, "Capitulate or die."

[RaleighNCDUer]

291. I think she's scared.

Really, really scared.

Denying reality can be a great defense mechanism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

319. Nah, in a couple of posts the mask fell off

she is a Straussian...

Fear has nothing to do with it.

Unles you speak of fear of modernity and secular societties per Leo Strauss

[Zhade]

157. You're fucking insane.

You're what's wrong with this country.

[Morereason]

175. The Bush administration's actions and words are CAUSING the vast and growing instability

I understand what you are saying, we are all concerned about what is happening in Pakistan and Iran, but we must use our wisdom to ascess the situation, not our brawn. Bush ratcheted up the instability the moment he declared "axis of Evil", ramped it up by invading a country on false pretenses, and continues to try and "grasp" the situation while only stirring it further up. The only way back down is much harder, but necessary, and that is to get him the hell out of washington, and Cheney, and restore WISDOM in Washington. And completely change our direction and that includes eventually removing all of the other lovers of mammon and pride that are pulling our country into the dark ages with their uneducated and foolish ways!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

213. If the kinds of "interests" that the Bushies represent

are "vital to our continued success as a nation/state," then perhaps we don't deserve that success.

On the whole, Americans, whatever their good qualities, are chauvinistic, militaristic, materialistic, and generally empty-headed, and the interests that are "vital to our continued success as a nation/state" are delighted with this state of affairs.

What kind of Machiavellian beliefs do you hold that you think it's okay for the U.S. to be violating several of the Nuremberg principles?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

35. mud windows are transparent to

certain wavelengths of radiation.

The very step of investigating Bush and Cheney would force their improved behavior. Instead, by guaranteeing that they can do no wrong (that would be punished) they gave the keys to the candy shop to two thieving, diabetic, sweet-toothed minor-aged hoodlums and gangmembers.

[Fredda Weinberg]

37. Have you been ignoring the hearings? Humiliation is punishment n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

38. only for those with a sense of shame and responsibility.

I suspect that is missing in some folks in leadership. possibly, on both sides of the aisle.

[Fredda Weinberg]

52. You're right, which is why we're appealing to their base. n/t

[Occulus]

41. Except when they aren't the sort of people who CAN be humiliated

Shamelessness precludes humiliation. We're talking about people who have rather severe personality disorders, Fredda- they don't behave as rationally as you're apparently assuming them to behave. If they get "punished", they simply assume the punisher is wrong, regardless of facts.

It doesn't make any sense, but then, such personalities as these do, in fact, behave in such a nonsensical manner.

[Jackpine Radical]

46. There are some interesting data on the physiological responses of psychopaths

showing that they don't learn from punishment. It seems to be a frontal-lobe-disconnect thing. The punishment we might visit upon the Bushies is mostly for the edification of those who might be tempted to follow in their footsteps.

[Fredda Weinberg]

55. And the GOP is paying the price. But we have work to do n/t

[kestrel91316]

304. We indeed have work to do:

[Ecumenist]

50. You have to give a bloody damn for humiliation to work, Fredda.

These people don't give a rusty f^ck about what you, I, the congress, this country, any other country thinks. Wake up, this is not a story book fantasy.

[Fredda Weinberg]

56. I use my real name @ DU and you accuse me of living a fantasy?

Something's surreal about this but never mind ... I'm wide awake and very busy. I affect what those people do - been there, done it. Congressional leaders are also working on a vital agenda and don't need distractrations.

You might. The public loves a circus.

[Ecumenist]

60. Fredda, may I ask you a question? How long have you lived here in the States?

These folks are supposed to represent US in Washington. If you had a business and hired someone who decided, once they started work, they were going to do what they wanted, despite what you hired them to do and they ignored your every direction, you'd fire them. Tell me how this is any different.

[Fredda Weinberg]

71. My title is CTO. No one tells me how to do my job. They're not qualified

I was hired for my experience and demonstrated technical expertise. No one questions my authority because I have a track record at public institutions.

And it's funny because I manage interns as well as other professionals. They're exactly the kinda useless critters that are fun to have around, but they work for credit so why fire 'em? Just give 'em experience and keep the good ones.

* skulked into office and squandered everything he's been given on a silver platter. My father washed dishes when he came to this country, but I was fortunate that my mother chose him - because she too was a first generation American with a bachelor's degree. The couple managed to raise an MD with a PhD in physics, a judge and of course ... me. As they say, only in America ... but it's not true: my father always wished he'd landed up in Australia, where true social mobility existed after WW II.

So how is this situation justifiable? Seriously, the social organizations that put * into office, including the Supremes, are long entrenched interests. After studying the histories of revolutions around the world, I've devoted my life to affecting structures that persist, using leverage and the benefit of time. If that doesn't make sense in a sentence, well, it's a life's work - and the reason I'm here.

Democratic party heads are making difficult choices and explaining their decisions. This is already enough change to accept that we won't achieve total satisfaction. We may seek justice in the end, but I recognize higher priorities right now.

[Ecumenist]

90. My dear, I come from a family full of Doctors, Lawyers, My brother is working towards

a PhD in AstroPhysics and Theoretical Mathematics, me-Molecular biology, etc. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You didn't answer my question. I asked you how long you've been here for a reason because I wanted to know what you've really experienced first hand. You see, REAL LIFE everyday experience is lightyears different that the rarefied conditions you seem to think is "oh so important" is what 99 percent of Americans undergo.

You see, this is hte real problem. The democrats in DC who make the rounds have forgotten that when it comes right down to it, WE, THE PEOPLE, are what matters, Fredda. All the bloody cocktail partieds, soirees, political think tanks don't mean "ish" when it's all said and done. It is because of mindsets like yours that we find ourselves this mess, despite our calls, demonstrations, emails and ultimately, VOTES for change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Remember to them, we are the rable

[Fredda Weinberg]

99. It has to do with what's right ... and wrong with this country

Overachieving is normal for the first generation after survivors, so yes, it matters. I've been invited to those parties ... and act more effectively outside their system.

I've made calls and demonstrated ... maybe more than you have. But for political theatre? Please ... I need a laugh, but not that badly.

[Ecumenist]

103. You know what, Fredda, you are part of the problem...

You're arrogant and try to get out of facing things and answering questions by trying to obscure and deflect things by throwing things and hoping something sticks. I asked you a simple question and you couldn't answer a one of them but were all too quick to suggest that we leave chimpy mcsnortalot alone because of some nebulous and yet unforeseen calamity that may result but kicking his sorry ass out of the office that he never won the right to in the first place.

Guess what? If things keep sliding downhill and we, as a country, end up with the nightmare scenario, something that is almost guaranteed if nothing changes, how much will your connections and the like do for you when things go t hell in a handbasket? Do you understand what is actually happning or are you so deluded to believe that you know everything and somehow by virtue of the fact that you have overacheivers in your family, you'll be spared the same hell the rest of the world will have to go through?

Wake up, Fredda. You're not being realistic.

[Fredda Weinberg]

151. You're filled with anger - I understand why

But if you can't get along with me then I question your values. Then again, I became tolerant after growing up - maybe you'll see the value of cooperation in time. Until then, I'll stick with my tagline.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Anger or knowledge and chiefly UNDERSTANDING of history?

Evil only thrives when people of good conscience refuse to speak out

[Ecumenist]

187. self delete.

[Ecumenist]

188. I learned long ago that some people are incorrigible and terminally stupid...

take from it what you will but you seem determined to impress others in with your astounding lack of insight and enabling. I am aware that banging my head against the wall with you will only result in a horrific headache and brain injury. Po' Thang, too stupid to see the forest for the trees. I only hope that your epiphany doesn't come after you look around and realise that you can no longer deny the obvious,you po' lil' ignorant chile.

[Fredda Weinberg]

233. When you're ready to stop suffering, I'm here

For Heaven's sake ... you're as angry as the parochial school classmates I left behind. Seriously, you're just as righteous and dangerous, but I've got great boundaries and a happy life to share.

Yes, I enable - that's what adults do for the immature of all ages. We're talking politics here, so yes, I defend the well reasoned actions of elected official against the natural inclination to seek justice.

No one knows more about suffering injustice than me and mine - we've managing w/an enviable track record and will stack our accomplishments against any generations. We didn't just learn from our pain ... raised as cosmopolitans, we defy the American norm of introspection and xenophobia.

So enjoy your day and I will mine and hope to see you around more substantial topics.

[Zhade]

161. Complicit with fascists, indeed.

What a waste of human life she is.

[Ecumenist]

185. I would love to see how arrogant she would remain if she were

to find herself on the business end of the vile treatment this bunch wants to unleash on the world, close-up and personal like, so to speak. I refuse to speak to her further. I don't say this lightly but sadly, I have to conclude that she's an idiot and a waste of skin.

[Occulus]

110. Fredda, could you please go home, stop what you're doing,

resign all your posts and positions, and retire?

Please?

You're not helping. You've stated, repeatedly, in very clear and unambiguous ways, that you're not going to help. In fact, you've stated you are going to do what you can to leave the boil unlanced. Tsk, tsk, tsk, silly girl. You not only are part of the problem, you and people like you are the problem, and I will fight against you and everyone else who says nothing real and substantive can be done, that we have to go along to get along, that we have to be "good Germans", Fredda, until the day I die.

Your opinions on the subject of holding these people to account are worth less than a bucket of lukewarm horsepiss and fifty thousand times more harmful than merely a bad administration on its own, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart and the deepest depths of my soul.

Where I come from, we call people like yourself "enablers". Shame on you, Fredda. Shame on you.

[Richard Steele]

193. Well, I use my "real name" as well, and your positions appear pretty fantasy-based to me.

I get the feeling that YOU are perfectly aware of reality, however.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. So do I, well my maiden name

I started posting with it many, MANY moons ago..

I guess she wanted to impress us

[kestrel91316]

305. "...Congressional leaders are also working on a vital agenda...."

Indeed:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/R?d110:FLD004:@1(rep+sherman):

Quite the laundry list of USELESS CRAP they are finding time to waste on, IMHO.

Have a look, folks. The link above shows just how hard our Congress is working to set this nation right. :sarcasm:

[kenfrequed]

284. Uhm

Shame is only shame is people are aware of it.

Obscure hearings where the presidents men are isntructed to obstruct justice and be horribly evasive that get almost no air time outside of the deep front of the NYT or a few amusing bits on the Daily Show, does not constitute public shame.

To hit the 'shame you' button you have to actually get it in the papers. This does not help with Rahm and Hoyer blocking any attack on the white house.

[Ecumenist]

44. AMEN, ANTIFASCHITS!! That's what I know would happen and that's what we need.

[Zhade]

65. How do live with such cowardice?

You excuse murderers.

That makes you complicit.

[me b zola]

195. The opponent is now within the party

No nation is a free nation with one-party rule.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

17. SOP...

for that poster. :eyes:

[Fredda Weinberg]

34. Green w/envy? LOL!

[caseycoon]

224. No Fredda...

I think the green is from nausea.

[Occulus]

75. Fredda used to pull shit like this over at Salon's Table Talk forum

She's one of the primary reasons I left that forum in the first place.

edited to add: that was several years ago. None of what she says is new to me; I've heard it all before, and I'll admit when I was a lot younger and stupider I allowed her and other posters like her (they usually ask you ask you three riddles) to get the best of me.

Never again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. You know what is amazing

she is getting literally called on the carpet for her enabling so now she is accusing us of envy...

Then again it is also part of the oligarchy's tool, using social shaming

[kath]

267. Yep - kgf, I was just going to post that this is deja vu all over again, remembering all of Fredda's

crap at TableTalk years ago. ACK.

[Zhade]

154. What a fucking IDIOT that one is.

Complicit with murderers by excusing them.

[liberation]

217. I guess that in every plantation there were a few house slaves...

Watching and paying attention the last few years, I can safely say that I am starting to understand my elders and all that they warned me about. I hope we have learned enough to not have to suffer what they had to go through...

I am of mixed heritage, but my grandma in the old country made damn sure we all in the family understood that my grandpa died on his feet so that neither she nor any of his family would ever have to be on their knees. And I'll be damned if I am going to have a two bit frat prick who can't even speak English correctly and his minions force me to play nice and be quiet.

Alas it is always an amusing experience to read some of the people bent on appeasing, making sure the boat is not rocked, you know... massa may not beat us today if we is nice to the massa... fuck that. Pardon my French.

[WilliamPitt]

171. Wow. Well, at least some things haven't really changed.

I can't read Fredda's posts because Skinner put her permanently on my Ignore list, and set it up so that I can't take her off. This was wise, as I was unfortunate enough to be in on the ground floor of her now-famous detonations, meltdowns, vendettas, and subsequent descent into infamy. After that, any dealings I had with her on DU became bloodbaths...and not because of me.

Since then, whenever I see 'Ignore' in a thread, I know exactly who it is. But I didn't have to read that crap above. The responses alone were entertainment, and reminder.

Hoo. With friends like these, who needs enemas.

[Occulus]

183. Here's one of her zero-day one-liners, Will:

"My generation dealt with Nixon, which is why * needs protecting."

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :D

[Zhade]

She thinks we should let b*s* walk.

NT!

[Fredda Weinberg]

299. Not even b*s* like yours. Funny, you're communicating to someone

who's not allowed to read my posts. Ain't it sad ... cause I didn't ask for it.

So don't lie ... I didn't work w/Pluto Press for fun.

[Cronopio]

206. Sounds like that's the effect Fredda was playing for.

Stunned shock.

I wouldn't bother trying to parse it as read - it's a meme intended to instill a sense of futility in rocking the boat and a "let Mommy and Daddy take care of everything" mindset.

Yes, the DLC is very active among our ranks right now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

328. Yes but once you go and pull the mask off

she got really defensive and accused me of a hostile tone

Of course...

Exposure is not nice

[Cronopio]

337. "Exposure is not nice."

But necessary, now and then. Bravo. :)

[Ecumenist]

14. Wha??? What the hell are you talking about?

The ones their enabling ARE THE ONES WE SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM!

[Fredda Weinberg]

36. Exactly, which is why we have a Democratic Party. But spare us if we

become a one party state.

[me b zola]

199. What do you you think that you're advocating?

Where the "leadership" is taking us is not to a clearly delineated two-party system.

[redqueen]

102. What hazards?

Is this about starting wars to make sure our precious standard of living isn't jeopardized?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

109. Ehem...

it's not just about the US with ol' Fredda...it never has been.

[BeHereNow]

117. DING DING, we have a WINNER.

and you said it so tactifully...
Perhaps she should move to a nice settlement "somewhere?"
BHN:toast: :thumbsup:

[SlowDownFast]

147. Key word being: "settlement".

Gimme a Z!

Gimme an I!

Gimme an O!

etc, etc...

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

125. It's a pattern I can attest to from seeing her post on Table Talk back in the day n/t

[rucky]

155. What are they?

the hazards? because the grow-ups aren't making it clear to us kids.

[TheWatcher]

169. Guess What Fredda?

YOU'RE The Nazi Now.

Hope you can live with it.

Enabler. Complicit. Sniveling. Arrogant. Disgusting.

And with any luck, you will be relegated to the status you belong, if we manage to prevail over the criminals who boots you see so fit to lick, "because it makes you feel good."

IRRELEVANT.

[Lorien]

179. Well said. n/t

[HughMoran]

265. Using the "Nazi"?

lol at you and the person who agreed with you.


Simplistic thinking from bitter people who do not have to live with the consequences of their actions - very humorous!

[Jim Sagle]

176. What I think you're hinting is that if they impeach him, he'll kill them. Do I have that right?

[BlueEyedSon]

276. Whaaaaaa???

[RaleighNCDUer]

288. Yeah.

Hazards like receiving anthrax in the mail if they don't play along.

Ya think?

[XemaSab]

4. That and there are people passed out next to the toilet, and the hosts

went in the back yard about two hours ago to have a smoke and haven't come back.

Time to bail before the cops show, methinks. After that arrest two years ago I can't afford to get in any more trouble, and even though the weed in my pocket isn't MY weed, I don't think the man's going to see it that way. :shrug:

[Jackpine Radical]

7. And the people who went out for more booze

aren't back yet.

:rofl:

[Sequoia]

6. Yes, they are clearly lacking in everthing it seems.

I'll put on my tin hat and say they've been invaded by the body snatchers. Ole Chimp had a pod on Air Force one and when Feinstein stepped out she had a change of heart towards him. It was all sunshine and smiley faces.

[lyonn]

9. I just recomended this post simply because I have that bad feeling too

No proof or real basis. Now I remember why the times I wanted to vote Dem but didn't feel right about the candidate ended up voting repub. My votes were a big mistake then. Won't do it again, but, some of our leading Dems are very disappointing. They need to explain their actions. A weak or corrupt Dem is better than any repub I can think of.

[asdjrocky]

10. enablers

[Ignoramus]

11. They are what democrats have asked for

by always voting for the most likely to win.

There is no incentive to do anything progressive. Democrats will vote for them no matter what they do. There is an incentive to appeal to the fascists though, because they do stand by their principles and will punish those who don't get with the program.

It doesn't matter which side of the knife is nicer, when it's slitting your throat.

[Individualist]

18. Hear, hear!

Rewarding enablers only encourages more of the same.

[yardwork]

13. Corporations are taking control.

[Speck Tater]

15. What you need to understand is...

Members of the ruling elite are much smarter and wiser than we are. We must simply trust them, and not question them or interfere with them in any way.

:sarcasm:

[gaiilonfong]

16. It is time to expose DiFi's husband war-profits

Let's expose their criminal behavior now so we can get REAL DEMOCRATS in to represent us.
Starting with the Bush enabler DiFi whose husband makes millions from contracts sent his way by the gov't....in other words we are paying for it! Why do you think she is voting with Mr 24%...she is raking in millions for her retirement.
Harvey milk was right about her she is Republican lite!

[onelittleindian]

25. difi

gaiilonfong, That is just crap. The republicans started that BS story about her and now you are backing them up. They will say anything to make dems look bad, you have no proof whatsoever.

[Megahurtz]

62. And Do You Have

any proof that it is just crap? :shrug: I'd like to see it.

[AntiFascist]

74. Right, Code Pink must really be a republican operation.....

http://www.fogcityjournal.com/news_in_brief/lt_code_pink_feinstein_070409.shtml

Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Code Pink, said of the protest: "We were outside Senator Diane Feinstein's house for two reasons. One was to pressure her to stop funding the war and to support the new legislation introduced by Sen. Russ Feingold, with the support of Sen. Harry Reid that calls for the troops to be home within a year - with a fixed timetable for withdrawal.

"The other reason is our concern about her conflict of interest, with her husband Dick Blum receiving multi-million dollar defense contracts while she headed the subcommittee on military construction. We feel that she and her husband have profited from this war, and they should return the profits back to the Iraqi people. Moreover, although Feinstein recently resigned from the subcommittee, we are urging an investigation into the conflict of interest."

The bottom line is that Feinstein continued to support neverending war while she and her husband enjoyed the benefits of multi-million dollar contracts awarded by the Defense department. The only thing Feinstein could argue was that she was playing by the rules by not being directly involved in the specific awarding of those contracts.

[Cha]

186. Is that you diane?

corporatewhore?

[Moochy]

270. Oh I see

She's saintly and humble like Mother Teresa, lives well within her means and does not own a mansion bought with war profits from her husband's job.

[DemGa]

21. They're afraid that Bush will huff and puff

and the Republics will yell at them.

Least that's the way it looks from here. :shrug:

I'll stay a Dem, but the Mukasey/torture deal is a thorough disappointment.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. I hear ya, but I still think their behavior is beyond chickenshit, beyond

merely craven. More like complicit. More like willing fellow-travelers on the road to hell.

[DemGa]

47. I don't know what to think anymore

And I usually resist piling on, but it's just one thing after another. Sometimes it's just a little too much.

[Zhade]

163. Yes, like a selfish fucking asshole enabler upthread.

I never thought I'd see such blatant complicity here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. But we have over the last four years

they are getting more obvious and I'd say desperate, as they start to loose control

[Individualist]

22. DLC has succeeded

in turning the party into a submissive branch of the republican party. They attempt to hide behind the centrist label.

Fortunately, there are still exceptions. It's way past time to stop voting for enablers and start voting for progressives!

[Hydra]

23. The play seems to have been written

and no one wants to change it. I wonder what the enablers are getting our of it. Holy Joe must have some bank account balance now.

[spanone]

24. Blackmail.

[Jackpine Radical]

32. I've heard that speculation before too, and it fits the bill

better than the chickenshit theory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. I know that for a fact

in 2002 I had the chance to talk to a US Senator, not staffer, not office pawn, but the actual person

Over coffee...

And when he mentioned what was going on I told him go to the press

His answer... none in the press will cover it

Call an international presser.

Again, same answer

So part of the puzzle is that one

The other is that they really feel trapped. At least that is the case for some.

And no, don't expect this to be confirmed anywhere on any fucking record.

[Occulus]

190. Charlie's father told her to go somewhere

Somewhere she could tell her story that didn't have connections to the Shop. Somewhere she would be listened to. Somewhere willing to print her story.

Today, that part of the plot of Stephen King's Firestarter would be blogs, rather than Rolling Stone.

Why aren't they taking these stories directly to the blogs, places like TPM and Kos?

[nadinbrzezinski]

198. Fear

fear for their lives, and mostly fear for their families.

It is one thing when you do this and you are not married, quite another when you expect the family to be affected

Given some of the reports in Wolf's book.. that is what's going on

That is why I say if there was an open Coup... enforcing it requires few people.. some examples and everybdoy else wil shut up

Hell we may have to decide when we'd better shut up as well...

:-(

As is there was a coup.

And some in the leadership, I suspect, cannot prove, are in it.

[kestrel91316]

311. They remember what happened to Wellstone.

No wonder they have all shut up and gone along with the plan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

329. And the sad part is if they managed to get this into the press

the pain would be over, but the Murican press will NEVER touch this, not until it is well over... and then as a historical odity

[liberation]

221. What I never understood is the state of denial of most people in this country...

I mean, within weeks of 9/11 Anthrax comes to town, and the patriot act... all 600 pages of it gets shoveled down our throats. How long did they have to write that whole thing? And how could a foreign terrorist know which Dems were more likely to be opposed to the act? And most importantly, why would a foreign terrorist be concerned with a news editor who is about to go public with very damning and embarrassing Bush photos?

Smell test never passed that, nor a milliard of other occasions before and since Fall 2001. So I guess it is just a case of Bush really being that lucky... I mean all those coincidences, always happening at the right time. Boy... it must be nice to be talking directly to god to get such first class service from the almighty when it comes to matters of chance.

[SammyWinstonJack]

252. bu$hco makes their own "luck".

[nadinbrzezinski]

330. Invoke internal and external enemies

most people will fall for it, every time.


Fear is a powerful ally of the police state

[tnlurker]

26. I have often speculated

That Karl Rove or somebody must have pictures or videos of most democrats in compromising situations. Just when you think a vote may go our way or some law might get passed or appointment denied, just enough democrats are convinced to vote the other way. It sometimes seems like they are being selective blackmailed depending on the situation. Sometimes it is the house, sometimes it is the Senate, but we always loose the vote when it would count.

[MetaTrope]

73. Or maybe it's just the anthrax...

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

28. The repugs have run this country so far into the ground that we could

...run a ham sandwich for president and win.

The dem powers that be do not NEED the base.

They ESCHEW the base.

The progressives have no place and no power in the party now.

That's what the DLC think. And INSIDE the beltway, they are right.

For now.

[redqueen]

30. Yup... it's nothing new, though.

The Senate was originally set up to be a check on the people's power... gotta keep the hoi polloi under control, don'tcha know.

[Ganja Ninja]

31. "They're all acting like 5th Columnists"

Yup! How do you think the Libertarian and Reform parties got to be so right wing? GOP 5th columnists like Neil Boortz and Pat Buchanan that's how. Why shouldn't we expect the same thing is being done covertly to the Democratic Party but on a larger scale?

When you hear the word "centrist" think "republican infiltrator".

[lonestarnot]

40. The scared monkies are afraid they'll be waterpissed!

[Trillo]

43. The story of civilization is the story of MONEY.

Bottom line it. Both parties represent money, and only pander to the populist when it seems beneficial to remaining in power. That doesn't mean both parties are the same, but that they serve the same master. : if they serve the same master, doesn't that mean they're the same?

edit: added darkred text

[Atman]

54. Republicans are evil fucking liars enough that they'd run as Democrats

just to get "inside." It's not like it's a secret club or anything. All you have to do is put a (D) next to your name and you're in. The GOP figured this out long ago.

They cover all the bases.

.

[B Calm]

63. Damn Right! They are called BLUE DOGS and DLC!

[kestrel91316]

312. Thank you . You are 100% correct.

[Stephanie]

58. Schumer's a wholly owned corporate entity.

So what would you expect?

[Zhade]

64. Their cowardice is criminal.

And far too many here excuse letting criminals walk.

[mmonk]

72. I have since right before the 06 elections.

I think it was something someone said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. We were having exactly that conversation over the kitchen table

there is a criminal conspiracy and it goes back a while...

There is no other way to explain the lack of action against Reagan in 1988, against Poppy in 1993 and truly now against the most criminal administration in US History

[Jackpine Radical]

92. Remember that Slick Willie put a lot of investigations of Reagan/Bush to bed

the minute he got into office. Kinda pulled the carpet out from under Kerry in the process.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. exactly they first refused to hold impeachment hearings

for reagan and then clinton put it under the carpet

And now our leadership is going, we have other things to do....

There is more to this... the problem is how do you prove it? I mean the cops will not rat on themselves

[Xenotime]

85. They are letting the pugs have their way with them...

Even the non-elected assholes like Rush.

[Me.]

95. First Of All The Word Party Should Be Dropped

No one is having any fun

[BeHereNow]

101. There is NO party. There are the elites and the rest of us.

Guess who's winning.

BHN

[in_cog_ni_to]

104. As others here have already stated, I believe they have all been illegally wiretapped and are being

Blackmailed OR they have decided they really don't want to win the election because it will be impossible to clean up the freakin' mess these thugs have created. I choose Blackmail.

[kelligesq]

346. Heck, that cant be it, we've all been illegally wiretapped :) I think its

because Bush was nice to Pelosi's daughter and let her tag along on his campaign plane and do her first
film documentary on him, that Pelosi made a deal, or
feels she must be nice to him....thus "no impeachment"
statements.

If so, she should resign.

[AtomicKitten]

107. Sucker-punching DK on his move to impeach Cheney was the last straw.

If the Democratic Party doesn't stand for the rule of law and the Constitution, they don't stand for anything except winning elections.

[Deja Q]

112. Deeper, but how do you know it's "sinister"?

Until somebody says something, it's 100% conjecture.

[BeHereNow]

118. By their fruits you shall know them?

Look around, the orchard is full of rotting fruit
and the trees have all been choked to death by the weeds.
I'd say that's pretty sinister when the gardners are complicit
to the crime.

BHN

[mvd]

113. I am sure there has been DLC influence

Pelosi hasn't been what I expected her to be, so there is influence IMO. I have seen some small steps in the right direction, but yesterday showed that things remain bad. I can not think of any reason why Dennis's provisions shouldn't be debated on and looked into. This is the most criminal administration in our history.

[wiggs]

120. Yep. This has been apparent for some time. They aren't cowardly or naive...

...our representatives are savvy, smart, ambitious, resourceful, connected people who have gotten to the top of the food chain because they play the game. Most of them come from the segment of the population for whom the game is made, of course, and are charged with maintaining it.

DUrs have expressed frustration over most dc dems' lack of apparent ability to: property frame an issue; vigorously defend themselves against smearing; strategize for better political position; describe and remind us of hundreds of administration misdeeds; to provide oversight; unify behind a principle and vote accordingly; armbend the minority into bipartisanship, to investigation wrongdoing; block or expose hundreds of bad agency nominees and appointees in every department in federal government; etc etc. I can't ascribe this pattern to incompetence or fear any longer. This goes the way it goes because that's what they, republicans and dems together, want. We have 7 years of evidence (voting records, apology letters, pointless demand letters, inconsequential hearings, mystifying votes, votes to punish those that speak out, lack of action, etc) that indicates this. There are no other explanations.

Chilling and sad...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

214. I remember remarking in both 1984 and 1988, after observing the inept campaigns

of Mondale and Dukakis: "They threw this election on purpose."

I just cringed through both those campaigns.

[undergroundpanther]

122. thanks for saying this.

I feel the same.

[FatDave]

123. The solution? Run progressives against them in primaries.

Sure, they could still pull a Lieberman and run and win as an independent, but at least they wouldn't be calling themselves democrats any more. And that sounds like a good start to me.

[lateo]

124. I've been feeling this way for YEARS now.

Maybe some other people are starting to see the light too. Please don't fall for the Democrats excuses of why they behave the way they do. They aren't afraid of being labeled "soft on terror" and they aren't "clinging to the center". What they are doing is deliberate and planned out by their corporate masters.

[Al Federfer]

Politics attracts people who want POWER, so why are you surprised? n/t

[tom_paine]

127. Agreed. Something more is going on here. Whatever it turns out to be.

Maybe several somethings. But yes, something is wrong. VERY wrong.

[ulysses]

129. welcome to my head.

[MonkeyFunk]

131. oh good lord

how ridiculous.

I swear, half the people here started observing politics within the last 6 months.

[ulysses]

132. what was happening in May?

[MonkeyFunk]

134. Nothing

my point is that half the people here appear to have no sense whatsoever of how government/politics work.

[ulysses]

135. ok then.

I've paid attention to politics since Carter/Ford, when I was in first grade. I think I have a better-than-average understanding of how all this works, or is supposed to work, and I think that the party has deep and serious problems at the present time. What say you?

[MonkeyFunk]

138. I say

that people don't understand how government/politics work.

We have the slimmest of majorities in congress, a conservative president, and a populace that isn't demanding what people on DU want. It's no surprise to me that we're not getting a leftist government.

[ulysses]

141. I would say in return

that being out of power in Congress and having a Democratic (if not liberal) president didn't seem to hold back the Gingrich Republicans in 1993.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

215. I've been observing politics since 1960

and I didn't start to get really disgusted with the Democrats until 1980, when the DLC helped Reagan get everything he wanted.

I was proud to be a Dem during the Watergate hearings, not so proud when Sam Nunn and other DLCers (including Gore, let's not forget) backed Reagan's unnecessary military buildup and his war on the poor people of Central America.

Most of the time since then, I've been exasperated and VERY aware of the 50% of the population that doesn't vote because they can't see that it makes any difference in their lives.

[mvd]

139. There are some problems - saying that isn't Dem bashing

I for one say it because I care about my party. The country might be more conservative, but the Repukes didn't get more liberal when Lyndon Johnson was in, for example. Most of the country still believes in many of the progressive proposals, but they buy into propaganda.

[MadHound]

133. Really?

C'mon Monkey, you know I've been around here as long as you, much longer than six months. At least have the intellectual honesty to admit that the party has become much more conservative, and much more corporate in the past quarter century.

[MonkeyFunk]

136. That doesn't mean

the party leaders are being blackmailed.

Maybe, just MAYBE, it's because the country has become more conservative? Nah... that's too obvious.

It MUST be that Dem leaders are afraid photos of them fucking goats are going to come out.

I'm sick of the Dem-bashing on a supposedly Democratic site.

[MadHound]

173. I never said anything about the Dems being blackmailed,

But given past history(J. Edgar, CIA, etc) that could be a possibility.

As far as the country getting more conservative goes, I think that you're buying into the media spin. Check into the polls, get a true, unfiltered pulse of the people and you'll see that the population has actually gotten more liberal.

And if you're tired of people criticizing Dems around here, perhaps you should call our so called leaders and tell them to start acting like they're Democrats and the opposition party, you know, the party of the people.

[Lorien]

184. If a politician puts a (D) behind their name, that doesn't always mean that

they are a Democrat. Most only wanted the power to begin with; they would have run as a repug if they thought that having an (R) behind their name would have given them an edge in an election. I don't think that any voter should be forced into excepting con men and women as Democratic representatives who simply refuse to ACT as Democratic Representatives.

[RaleighNCDUer]

336. As far as the general public is concerned it is not about being

conservative or liberal, but about being normal or not-normal.

For the past three decades the media has been pushing the idea that "conservativism" is the norm, and that "liberalism" is outside the norm - despite the fact that when people are questioned on the ideas themselves, without labels, they consistantly indicate that the norm is to be tolerant, forthright, pro-choice, anti-war, anti-imperialistic -- IOW, liberal.

But above all, what they want to be is the same as everyone else - which is in itself a very liberal, egalitarian stance. And if they have been told for decades that "liberal" is outside the norm, then they CAN'T be liberal, therefore, they self identify as conservative or, increasingly, independent.

The country is not more conservative - but the conservative controlled media shouts their viewpoint while we whisper, afraid to be seen as being outside the group. Which leaves those few on our side who do shout looking like "radical lefties", "woo woo hippies" "misguided idealists" and

liberals.

[Usrename]

339. You are in a fantasy world that no longer exists.

The populace of this country, as a matter of fact, the population of the entire world is demanding a change.

How can you deny that?

Who are these masses that you believe support the status quo or the Bush Administration or the direction that the country or the world are going in? Who are these imaginary people that you think exist? Do you give them a name?

[earth mom]

137. Many of us have been saying this for a very long time around here.

Those of us who have been connecting the dots are told we're wearing tinfoil hats and need to get the hell out of dodge or shut the fuck up. When we bring up 911-which is the reason * & Congress can do what ever the hell they want the people be damned-it's thrown into the dungeon like so much trash.

Connect the dots people.

Before it's too late.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2007/11/06.html#recap

[femrap]

143. Or have they been threatened by

the neocons???

But you're right....there is something going on that is criminal.

[JackRiddler]

146. Anthrax?

"Watch what you say?"

Bush and Cheney telling Daschle to forget the 9/11 investigation?

FBI demanding senators investigating it take polygraphs to determine the source of a leak that came out of Cheney's circles?

Wellstone?!

"If you want to stop World War III..."?

There's been a whole lot of intimidatin' goin' on.

But in the end it's probably the case that the people you're talking about are in the same (military-industrial) pockets as Bush Co.

[Jackpine Radical]

148. Buy the ones you can (Feinstein, Pelosi). Intimidate the rest. (Daschle).

Kill a few who don't respond to intimidation. (Wellstone.)

[Greyhound]

150. We really need a smiley with eyes squeezed tight, fingers in ears, and loud

"la, la, la, I can't hear you" text bubble. The willful ignorance and wishful thinking that abounds is truly astonishing.

They don't act like a 5th column, they are the 5th column.

Just reading through the replies in this thread could depress a hyena.

ETA: :kick: & R

[Jackpine Radical]

153. Put Fredda & a couple others on Ignore & it suddenly gets better.

[H2O Man]

158. !!!!!! n/t

[Johnny Noshoes]

222. That does work wonders

for your sanity doesn't it? I hate to have to ignore someone but some just beg to be added to the list.

[stimbox]

272. Hahahahaha. So true. Unfortunately that's what our elected representatives have done to us. n/t

[Moochy]

274. Everytime you put a DLC poster on ignore

Al From kills a kitten

[Moochy]

273. Sounds like a job for a Webmonkey script for firefox!

[WilliamPitt]

170. Yup. Not a mystery, either.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WilliamPitt/343

(snip)

Corporations with human rights, enriched by war and the permanent establishment of the wartime economy, positively cash-glutted after 25 years of war in Vietnam, and legally able after ‘76 to buy and control the entire government. These are the super-citizens, who have all the rights you have, but have ten million times more power to press those rights. And they bought it all, bought the news and the information, bought the radio and the newspapers and the book publishers, and when they couldn't buy any more they had their pet politicians pass more deregulations, and they went on buying. Above it all, however, is the ingrained economic necessity for warfare and strife.

It comes down to this.

Any politician of either party who reaches national stature has, at some point before, signed on the dotted line agreeing to support and maintain this situation. The Democrats do this just as the Republicans do. Every president since Truman has done this. On this all-important point, there is truly no difference between the parties.

One reason for this display of unswerving bipartisanship is straightforward: if this whole charade was stopped cold today, the American economy would shatter like a crystal goblet dropped upon flagstones before sunrise tomorrow. The world would melt down, period. One might argue “Good, needs to happen,” and be eloquent in that argument, but no pol in DC is going to make it happen.

This economy needs warfare, and will collapse without it. Both parties know this well enough, and so both parties work to keep the carousel whirling. Why did the vote for the IWR? Why do they seem listless about thwarting an Iran attack? Because the economy requires it.

Why? There it is.

But here’s the oddest part, at least for me. All of that is depressing and disgusting and daunting to six hundred decimals, right? I think so. But when I finally accepted the truth of the deal, I mean accepted it down in my bones, I became filled with this sense of inner calm and peace; I could actually sleep at night and function without constantly having my needle in the red zone. I still have it, that sense of calm. It was one of the most important realizations of my life: happiness is fleeting, but real clarity lasts forever. I have some of that clarity now, I see what the deal is, and though it is gruesome and terrifying to behold, at least it isn’t some big damned mystery anymore.

That clarity makers dealing with these Democrats so much easier. If the field guide says the bear is going to shit in the woods, and I see a brown bear pinch a loaf underneath an oak tree, I’m not going to be surprised. The Dems will do what the current system requires, and that won’t change anytime soon, and it no longer staggers me. The bear’s gonna shit in the woods, it says so right here in the guide, so…

...more...

[AntiFascist]

201. I won't accept the defeatist attitude, also I don't think you are answering the questions...

the answer to why we need war to keep the economy afloat can be found in none other than the Project for the New American Century, and it can be boiled down to the simple fact that the American dollar depends upon control of the world oil market. Well, guess what? Oil producing nations are shedding the dollar anyway, and the value of the dollar is turning further south. This "revolution" is happening whether we accept it or not. "Old Money" is losing its tried and true methods of turning a profit, so it turns to despots like Bush and his enablers in the Democratic Party for one final money grab before sailing off into the sunset. It kind of reminds me of that docudrama I watched recently about the final days of Hitler, where the Nazis were partying right up to the very end, even as the Soviets were advancing on Hitler's bunker and all hope should have been lost.

All is not lost for the nation, however, and I do feel that a state of equilibrium will eventually be found. There will be energy alternatives and America will find itself competing on a flatter playing field. Hopefully, society and government will eventually become more open, without the secret societies and shadow agencies which have become the bane of our democratic existance.

[mopinko]

172. which is why some of us just can't give up on gore.

what the hell difference does it make if some of us hold on till that last, last minute? till he makes that sherman statement? we are supporting al because he is not a part of the rotten core of this party. standing up for him is a way for we the people to send a message. i am just not jumping on any of these other trains until the guy on the gore train tells me that this is as far as this train goes.

[Jackpine Radical]

258. Well, yeah.

I don't really expect Gore to get in, but what the hell? I can hold my breath a little longer.

[Cha]

178. Yeah, it doesn't take a

fucking brick wall to fall on our heads.

Then we have those around here whose job it is to excuse that kinda action.

[bobthedrummer]

194. Domestic enemies of The United States of America act like that JR, don't they? eom

[pinto]

203. Criminally wrong?

Understand your frustration with the leadership, but implying criminality seems a little over the top.

[Jackpine Radical]

259. I didn't specify exactly where the criminality lies.

For example, blackmail is a criminal enterprise. Intimidation with anthrax?

[Naturyl]

205. Yeah, I just posted about this

Interesting to find similar thoughts just a few threads down the list...

I think it's possible that the Democratic party has been destroyed from the inside. Given Feinstein and others' support for this horrible waterboarding business and the way this "Democratic" congress has steadfastly refused to stand up to Bush about anything important, it's starting to occur to me that maybe the great neo-con project of the last 30 years has succeeded. Maybe the Democratic party is actually dead. Perhaps Margaret Thatcher's thinking has prevailed - "there is no alternative." Our choices now seem to be Social Darwinism (R) and Polite Social Darwinism (D). Actual progress is represented by Dennis Kucinich standing in front of a podium at a debate waiting 20 minutes to speak, only to be asked about a UFO.

[Baby Snooks]

210. A confession. Please forgive me.

I was born a Republican. Among other things, I was forced to ride in a hay wagon screaming "Nixon, Nixon, he's our man, Kennedy belongs in a garbage can." I was seven years old. Obviously child abuse. I may die a Republican. But I will never, ever, ever vote for a Republican again. So I suppose I am a Democrat by default and have been for some time. I just refuse to support a Democrat simply because he or she is a Democrat. I saw "straight ticket" voting ruin the Republican Party. It may ruin the Democratic Party. Why I rail occasionally about how really important primaries are. Ronald Reagan said the Democratic Party left him. What I feel about the Republican Party. It left everyone, it seems, when Eisenhower left office. Eisenhower wasn't so bad. He warned us all about the Bushes. And their "military-industrial complex."

That said, I would never vote for many of the Democratic leaders. Simply because I will never vote for a Republican again. And they are Republicrats. And the emphasis with Republicrats is on the Republican.

I should be an Independent by default. Except I look at Lieberman and want to scream. And often do. He is a Republicrat. Hidden behind the label of Independent. He is double dirty for casting doubt on Independents. Which in some cases in some races we need simply because it is the only option. Thanks to Lieberman, it is not. Who can trust an Independent now?

The only hope for this country at this point is the Democratic Party. Unfortunately the leadership of the Democratic Party is hopeless.

I am very angry with Cindy Sheehan who I support 100% in her message but not her method. You can only change the party within, Cindy, and it if is not too late, I would ask, beg really, that you reconsider and challenge Pelosi as a Democrat. It might give courage to others to do the same with so many of the others. Hoyer, Feinstein, Schumer, so many of them. They not only don't represent Democrats they don't really represent the American people.

I would also ask, beg really, that Al Gore put aside whatever needs to be put aside and run again. We need real Democrats in Congress. And we need a real Democrat in the White House. Otherwise, this country is going to completely collapse. It is already collapsing. Under the rampant, and rabid, moral corruption of the Republicans.

When did I know, by the way, that something was wrong with the Republican Party? When I realized that it was Nixon, not Kennedy, who belonged in the garbage can. And very vocally suggested to everyone I knew that they deposit him in one after Kent State. That has horrified me all these years. And horrifies me even more now because I see this country heading towards the authoritarian state Nixon envisioned.

Helped along by Madame Speaker. The Empress with no clothes.

[Beam Me Up]

211. Be careful. You may get yourself called a . . .

tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

As for me, I wear the title proudly. Only, so far as I'm concerned, at this point, it ain't no theory.

Here are a few words from the author, Peter Dale Scott:

In American history there are two types of events. There are ordinary events
which the information systems of the country can understand and transmit. There are also
deep events, or meta-events, which the mainstream information systems of the country
cannot digest. I mean by a “deep event” one in which it is clear from the outset that there
are aspects which will not be dealt with in the mainstream media, and will be studied
only by those so-called “conspiracy theorists” who specialize in deep history.

<snip>

If history is what is recorded, then deep history is the sum of events which tend to
be officially obscured or even suppressed in traditional books and media. Important
recent deep events include the political assassinations of the 1960s, Watergate, Iran-
Contra, and now 9/11. All these deep events have involved what I call the deep state, that
part of the state which is not publicly accountable, and pursues its goals by means which
will not be approved by a public examination. The CIA (with its on-going relationships to
drug-traffickers) is an obvious aspect of the deep state, but not the only one, perhaps not
even the dirtiest.

When I talk of a deep state, this term (as opposed to others, like deep politics), is
not my own invention. It is a translation of the Turkish gizli devlet, or derin devlet, a term
used to describe the networks revealed by the so-called Susurluk incident of 1996, when
the victims traveling together in what became a deadly car crash were identified as "an
MP, a police chief, a beauty queen and her lover, a top Turkish gangster and hitman
called Abdullah Catli.” The giveaway was that “Catli, a heroin trafficker on Interpol's
wanted list, was carrying a diplomatic passport signed by none other than the Turkish
Interior Minister himself.” He was carrying narcotics with him at the time of the crash.

http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/ProfScottJFK,911,andWar.pdf

[Jackpine Radical]

262. I was a charter member of the DU Tinfoil Hat Society...

which was itself a precursor of the Grassy Knoll Society. That was in 2001.

[mhatrw]

212. Vichy Democrats. n/t

[HughMoran]

249. Go back to your socialist site

:eyes:

[steve2470]

220. I agree

I mentioned my "suspicions" in another thread and then was accused by someone of innuendo. They seem to cave to the Republicans way too often. Something is more wrong than just strategy.

[Perry Logan]

223. Quick proof that you're wrong: the Democrats showed the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years.

The Democrats in Congress showed the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years and backed the majority position of their caucus 91 percent of the time.

"President Bush's success rating in the Democratic-controlled House has fallen this year to a half-century low, and he prevailed on only 14 percent of the 76 roll call votes on which he took a clear position.

"So far this year, Democrats have backed the majority position of their caucus 91 percent of the time on average on such votes. That marks the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1728952&mesg_id=1728952
http://public.cq.com/docs/cqt/news110-000002576765.html

Don't let the media rhetoric fool you. The Democrats have acquitted themselves quite well--especially given their bare majority in both houses, and a relentlessly obstructionist Republican minority.

this 110th Congress has had more roll call votes this year than any
other Congress in history, almost doubling the number under the previous Congress overseen by Boehner
and House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL):
The House last week held its 943rd roll call vote of the year, breaking the previous
record of 942 votes, a mark set in 1978. The vote was on a procedural motion related to a
mortgage foreclosure bill. When the House adjourned on Oct. 4 for the long weekend, the
chamber had reached 948 roll call votes, putting Democrats on pace to easily eclipse 1,000
votes on the House floor in 2007.
Last year, the Republican controlled House held 543 votes, and for historical comparison,
the last time there was a shift in power in Congress, Republicans held 885 roll call votes in
1995. The Senate, which has held 363 votes this year, isn’t on pace to break any
records, but has already surpassed the 2006 Senate mark of 279 votes.
Much of the lack of progress can be traced back to obstructionism by conservatives. Approximately “1 in
6 roll-call votes in the Senate this year have been cloture votes,” noted a JulyMcClatchy report. “If this
pace of blocking legislation continues, this 110th Congress will be on track to roughly triple the previous
record number of cloture votes.”
It’s interesting that Boehner is criticizing the 110th Congress as doing nothing. After all, the House, under
his leadership, met for just 101 days during the second session of the 109th Congress, setting the record
“for the fewest days in session in one year since the end ofWorld War II.”

[MannyGoldstein]

225. That Shows That They All Tend To Vote The Same Way

But it doesn't indicate whether they agreed or disagreed with the Republicans. They could have a unity score of 100, but vote the wrong way every time.

[Warren Stupidity]

226. Wow! "more roll call votes"! Hey now that is

Just Fabulous

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoFederales]

247. Yes, and a little work at the local level does help. It may not

alleviate the hard core fears at the National level, but it's your friends and neighbors who see you doing something that counts--even if "they" say you're bat-shit crazy, the dissent is noted.

NoFederales

[Jackpine Radical]

263. You guys seem to know an awful lot about what I'm doing/not doing.

[LWolf]

228. Browsing through the replies to your thread,

it's obvious. Plenty of people are seeing and feeling the same.

Then there are the frogs insisting that the water in our pot has not gotten any hotter, and that we're all wrong.

Should we jump out of the pot before it's too late, or boil with them?

[liberation]

261. Party over Country is not a Republican quality anymore...

Everything is fine, nothing to see.


*yawn*


Whenever someone up above pisses on all of us, there is some appeasing tool who comes out of the woodwork to convince us that yellow trickle is actually rain from pure mineral water... we should be ever so lucky that the people above us seem it fit to sprinkle us with such quality fluid! After all who are we going to believe him or our lying eyes?

[LWolf]

348. It's easier for me.

I was an independent for all of my adult voting life, 25 years, before 2000 drove me to the radical step of joining a party. It's certainly been illuminating, if nothing else.

I've never put party before country, so I don't have the same conditioning to overcome that others struggle with.

[Jackpine Radical]

266. For my money, the answer is Neither.

We need to take over the controls to the stove.

[LWolf]

347. That's the best choice.

Do we do that from within the pot, or without, or both?

I'm willing to do just about anything but boil.

[Moochy]

279. Fredda's Famous Frog Soup!

Delish

[OneBlueSky]

230. one thing these so-called Democrats HAVE accomplished is . . .

ensuring that DU threads like this one are interminably long and excessively verbose . . . so long and chatty, in fact, that adding anything to the "conversation" is certainly an exercise in futility . . . I know that I don't read all of the posts, and I sincerely doubt that anyone else does, either . . .

[OzarkDem]

234. Not criminal, but bad judgement perhaps

They've grew accustomed to GOP control, then were suddenly in charge with corporate money flowing in.
They live in a controlled environment, a "hot house" if you will, in DC where they're constantly bombarded with messages on tv, radio, all kinds of advertising, promoting the conservative agenda. They hear more from lobbyists than their own constituents.

They don't fully understand how the mood of the country has shifted and that the momentum is in their favor.
There may be a few who are deliberately being swayed by $$, but most really think they're doing the right thing.

[Mark E. Smith]

240. Gibberish

Paranoid lunacy.

[endarkenment]

246. Ironic that you have a pic of bush getting snogged by a saudi royal

Perhaps you forgot the stupid :sarcasm: thing?

[Mark E. Smith]

335. Moral absolutists bore me

And while it is nice of DU to provide them a sweet little hothouse
to flower in, their real world presence is negligible.

[The Backlash Cometh]

241. I think they've eaten the capitalist pill. They believe in trickle down

economics, more than they let on, although all evidence suggests that the predatory nature of capitalism, is what is causing America's burden.

[pattmarty]

242. Can you say CORPORATIONS?

[Mutineer]

243. They don't serve the people anymore

they serve their own interests and that of multi-national corporations who donate to their campaigns and keep these people in office. It's time for a 3rd party and honest (imagine that) politicans who are owned by nothing but their own convictions.

[MissDeeds]

245. The party is unrecognizable

I agree completely with the OP. Our party leaders have lied to us and failed us time and time and time again. The Constitution is being shredded and nothing is being done about it.

[HughMoran]

248. Flame bait bullshit post

This is bullshit.

[endarkenment]

250. fabulous self-referential irony! nt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

251. couldnt agree more

[FREEWILL56]

253. I hope you don't mind as my thread is similar and yet different

and may have something to add to this thread's content.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2234535&mesg_id=2234535

[HughMoran]

256. No, your post makes sense. This stupid post is a baby & bathwater post

The reactionary dimwits can't decipher the difference between the good Democrats and the DINO's who are essentially giving the Republicans a "majority". But let the people vent - that's all this post is - a mindless venting...

[treestar]

254. What do they do when they are labeled "soft on terror?"

The people in this country aren't leftists by any stretch of the imagination right now and that's a reality. And Bush is still president.

They're better than Repukes. They are able to function as a check and balance on what Bush and Cheney would want and get if they had another Repuke majority. And the rhetoric would be much farther to the right. We'd be debating not impeachment, but whether or not the police should get to stop us at will and check our papers because it would allegedly help against terra. Gonzalez would still be there arguing that somehow is consistent with the Fourth Amendment.

The solution is more Democrats, and a bigger Democratic majority, and a Democratic President, not constantly bashing the Democrats still holding the wall and calling the spineless cowards, etc. If the army were holding back an invading enemy but not making gains, but managing to hold the line, you'd call them spineless?

[AntiFascist]

332. The people in this country may not all be leftists....

but there is a growing distrust of government, Democratic and Republican alike. By enabling the Administration, our Democratic leadership is ignoring the popular opinion and moving the Democrats further away from political success. Do you get that?! The DLC has some other agenda and it does not include the popular will of the American people. My guess is that it involves globalism and multi-national profiteering. Americans be damned, there is a world out there to be conquered...if it were only as easy as they seem to think it is.

[Le Taz Hot]

260. Read history.

Particularly Roman history. It's all there.

[Jackpine Radical]

357. Yes, it is.

Mercenary armies, bread & circuses, the end of the old Republic. The time scales are awfully compressed, though.

[peacetalksforall]

264. It took me a long time to figure out that it could be possible - that the idea

that there was a higher ruler in our country above the Constitution - and that both parties were in on it the delusion and game with we mere little people, that both party rulers had the same agenda and were putting on their masks every time they devoted even a minute to pretending that they worked for us. I still don't want to believe it. I'm teetering. I can't believe that Ted Kennedy would devote the energy to a grand deception or that Kucinich wasn't sincere. I want to believe that there are some rogue traitors to the country who have committed themselves to the corporations-barons and are in their positions because of the corporations-barons.

I have exaggerated when I would write The United States of Corporations or Corpacracy. Out of anger at the grand pretense. To teach kids - beuatiful souls - lies. Can it be?

Could Wellstone meld his grand love for humanity with the corporations.

We know we suffered assassinations of some idealistic people - people who shared our ideals and who gave us ideals to aspire to.

Is this a half and full century plan that is finally coming to a blunt breakthrough of acknowledgement?

The plunging dollars might be one answer.

Where does it stop so that the rich will be served and secured?

Are there going to be mobile ovens.

Instead of Jews - will it be common non-contributing people in order to reduce the population of this country to a controllable level while reward certain players?

Based on the performance of Dems with possibilities beyond vote tallies, what's going on?

[ironrooster]

303. nobody wants to think about this

but
1)
it's why progessives need to join/become part of orginizations they would not ordinarily be part of.
until we can play that game - we aren't going anywhere.

2)progressives need to network not just on DU but in their local area - you need to know who you can depend on.

3)progressives need to get over their distaste for guns(self defense) and learn how to use one.

4)progressives need to understand communications networks (fiber optic, copper , radio), energy conduits etc.

I bet some smart people here can connect the dots.

Oh, but don't mind me, I'm just crazy.

[Blue_Tires]

268. k+r

[PATRICK]

269. At the least

and I would grant them the benefit on this- If they were THAT nefarious they would be in the WH now-
at the least I would say they are stubbornly following their past disastrous decisions consistently because they consistently are afraid(scornful is the flip side) of the alternatives. It is the party quagmire that made the Coup so easy and successful and the Dem recovery so dismally hard. Schumer's forced and painfully absurd support of Mukasey is just one typical example and something many of us KNEW we were actually voting for in 2006. Well, hope springs eternal but consistency dressed in full winter gear flounders in the spring mud.

If they were to openly defend themselves on each issue we would hear the same kind of tepid logic as spoken on the record by Hoyer about DK's impeachment move and Schumer on Mukasey. Secretly they might hint there are more dire fears and powerlessness and protective hopes that are probably no more rational than the incredibly bad sounding public statements. Like most proud human beings holding positions of prestige and power they will go to the grave with belated and still wrong-sighted apologies and self-defenses. We are under their leadership so it is no wonder we are going nuts in our own way and seeking "redeeming" rationale even on the dark side.

The smug mindset turned grim turned frantic and counter-intuitive, all the hallmarks of a tragic political mistake. THAT is the mainline party leadership in action and in inaction. If they could stop and think of how they are being dragged down by their course of action, even into areas of betrayal and complicity while tanking among the people without thinking how much worse the supposed consequences would be....whatever they are... well, that would be very very nice.

Too rich, too beholden to rich donors, too enamored on "new" corporate politics, too out of touch with real politics and real enemies and real people. What else do too many of them have except their own imagined fears?

[Moochy]

271. K&R

[Mme. Defarge]

275. THE FACT

that election reform has been deferred until (at least) 2012, and that they won't enforce subpoenas is EXTREMELY disturbing.

[w4rma]

292. big buisiness/corporate/big money/DLC influence is extremely high everywhere. (nt)

[kestrel91316]

301. They are a bunch of Ivans, turncoats, DINOs, whatever.

We know who they are "by their fruits" and we need to send them packing at the next election.

[AngryOldDem]

315. Good Lou Dobbs quote...

...that popped in my head as I read your post:

"The Democrats and Repubiicans are different wings of the same bird. And they are giving the bird to the American people."

'Nuff said.

[Megahurtz]

353. I believe he's right.

:hurts:

[Cleita]

316. A good part of our leadership is corrupt and I have never had

any illusions about it. I had always hoped they would throw us, the proletariat, a bone now and then but it doesn't seem that they are even willing to do that any more. I think we need some real House cleaning in the next election. All the reps will be up for re-election. We need to replace the Republicans and the DINO Democrats.

[helderheid]

333. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours