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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:28 PM
Original message
Poll question: Do we still need Affirmative Action?
Just getting DU's flavor on this....

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fuck yeah.










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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Sanctioned ethnic cleansing at work
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 06:09 AM by flashl
Kaiser Health Disparities Report: A Weekly Look at Race, Ethnicity and Health. Health disparity statistics reinforce that lives are unnecessarily cut short each year largely due to preventable chronic diseases. According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the age-adjusted death rate for African Americans was higher than that of whites by 41 percent for stroke, 30 percent for heart disease, 25 percent for cancer, and more than 750 percent for HIV disease in 2002.

A 2003 study by the National Institutes of Medicine found that minorities were more likely to receive a poorer quality of care even when they had the same level of health insurance access as Whites.


U.S. Human Rights Report. According to the census result in March 2003, the income of black people with bachelor degree was 24.5 percent lower than white people with same degree, that of black people with master degree 21.2 percent lower than white people with same degree, and that of black people with doctoral degree 28.1 percent lower than white people (see USA Today on Sept. 9, 2003).


Blacks were / are dying from lack of access to treatment of preventable diseases at alarming rates long before health care disparities became topical.

DOJ Civil Rights Chief Tanner was RIGHT. Blacks are just DYING.

Everyone is / was excited about Blackwater in Iraq, but when they entered into New Orleans after Katrina shooting up the place, no connection to its outrageous behavior against U.S. citizens was made. After Blackwater entered NOLA, all deaths were dated the same day as Katrina.

Hundreds of black children under the control of LA child protected services were missing after Katrina and few paid attention to prisoners left in jails during Katrina to drown.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I am going to K&R this thread just so people can see your pics
NEVER FORGET WHAT HAPPENED (and continues to happen) IN NO!!!!!!!
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. kicking again for the same reason
:cry:

:kick:

NEVER FORGET
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Never Forget indeed
And Never Again.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. AMEN Swampy!
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 12:54 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
My sociology prof. once had us read a study about the effects of race. Some here on DU have suggested that it is not so much race as economic background. However this particular study showed that when two groups of students were given the exact same test save for one question (What is your race), black students did more poorly than white students. This suggested that even being aware of one's race and the stigma associated with that particular race (especially african americans and hispanics as being somehow intellectually inferior) has an effect on the mindset of the student, EVEN if the student claims to not believe such stereotypes.

I wish I could find that study again...
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Swampy you brought tears to my eyes at work
:cry: :cry: :cry:

I have no doubt in my mind that this nation will be held accountable for the ethnic cleansing in NO. Oshun hears the cries of Her children.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. You mean quotas requiring colleges and employers to
enroll and hire U.S. citizens?
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Does racism still exist in this country?
If so, then the answer should be a resounding YES.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes. Especially in Congess.
Help Wanted.

Only Progressives need apply.

(wishful thinking)
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. Twelve black Senators would be a good start.
Hell yes, we still need Affirmative Action.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes.
Until there is a level playing field.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. College admission
What about for college admission? Should minorities be held to the same SAT/Grades requirements as whites, or should they be admitted with lower scores?

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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Absolutely - the whole education system is a fucking JOKE
Coincidence that many inner-city schools are failing? If they're not being given the same resources as predominantly white, mid-upper class schools, then you're going to get different results. The whole education system in this country is designed for minorities to fail. Absolutely they should be given special consideration when applying for college.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. But
Should that special consideration be based on race? Or are you talking more about income and/or societal background? Because I see no reason to give affirmative action to a young black person from a middle-class, two-parent family. To me, that is simply judging on the superficial matter of race, which I don't agree with. However, if someone is financially disabled -- whatever race -- then they need a leg up.


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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. when I worked in the admissions dept. of OSU years ago
economic background and ability was considered far more than just race alone.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Interesting question.
I'll start by saying that I recognize that I am not qualified to address issues regarding college admissions policies. It's not an area that I have enough background information on to do much more than expose my ignorance. However, I will give a few of my impressions.

First, for college admissions, I would think that "race" or ethnic identity is one of many factors that should be considered. I notice there is a tendency for many discussions on this topic to look at it in "black and white" terms. However, I am confident that we can all agree that there are more than black and white folk in the United States. I think that any objective examination of national statistics would indicate that, for example, Native Americans do not enjoy the advantages that other groups in the US do. Hence, to level the playing field, I think that colleges should be considering ethnicity ("race") as one factor in determining admissions.

Other issues that are important, in my opinion, include economic factors. I think that most people recognize that public education from K to 12 is a good thing. Our society benefits from having young people going to school, and getting an education, including a high school diploma.

Certainly, there are always going to be rich folks who send their children to private schools. That's fine. There are also a group of private schools that are based upon religion. Again, that's fine with me. But my focus is public school.

I think if it benefits society to have K through 12 being open and largely "free," that it makes sense to offer continuing education in much the same manner. That can and should include education other than college: trade schools, etc, can be part of an expanded public education system that enriches our society.

As always, there will be private colleges and universities for rich folk, including some that are religiously oriented. Good. Education is essential.

But public education is equally important. And by making it more inclusive, rather than exclusive, our society would benefit. We should not be pitting a red child against a black child against a white child against a brown child against a yellow child for a spot in a classroom. We should be seating them together in that classroom.

That is leveling the playing field, to the benefit of all ..... unless one considers the possibility that someone who isn't from the public schools is capitalizing on pitting some families against others, and denying some folks a full education.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. As long as SATs and grades are racially biased, yes.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Really?
SAT's and grades are racially biased? How so?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. They're racially biased...
because average scores and GPAs for black people are lower.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Logic
That's quite a jump in logic there, don't you think?

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. No.
There are two explanations for the lower average scores.

1. They're racially biased.

2. Black people are simply inferior.

If it's #1, affirmative action is needed. If you believe #2, you'd be a perfect example of why affirmative action is still needed.

Either way, affirmative action is still needed.

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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You make a tight argument
Wrong, but tight. LOL. I don't believe either of your two suppositions.

And if the test is racially biased, maybe the solution would be to fix the test, not put in place a generations-long AA program.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. haha
the test is not the problem -- it's just one symptom of a in a multitude of complex systemic problems, holmes.

here are just a few:

- access to quality education based on proximity to good schools
- proximity to good schools based financial ability to live in safe neighborhoods (since the quality teachers tend to flock to the safe schools, you know the ones that do not require metal detectors and security guards at the doors)
- continued relegation of brown/black people to the bottom-of-the barrel of social assistance
- racist MSM

It's a complex web and these are just a few of the parts. AA is just one feeble regulatory attempt at offsetting some of the affects of this list and there ain't much else.

Seriously, after Katrina are you really asking this question? wtf, holmes?
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Missing my point
Of course there are many societal issues related to race. Duh! My response was to another poster who said that one has to believe either a) SAT's are racially biased; or b) blacks are inferior. I said I don't agree with either of those two. We didn't get into other factors.

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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. ...
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 03:15 PM by hiphopnation23
And if the test is racially biased, maybe the solution would be to fix the test, not put in place a generations-long AA program.

I was responding to this sentence. By presupposing one of hooligan's premises', you offer a bogus solution which completely misses the point of why the test is racially biased in the first place. It has nothing to do with the structure of the test itself, but instead how students are prepared for it, which in-turn relates directly to my laundry list above, which in-turn relates directly to the continued need for, and bolstering of, AA.

edit: content
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. No
His supposition (not mine) was that the test was racially biased. I don't agree with that. But IF - that's a hypothetical IF - the test was racially biased, then the solution would be to fix the test.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. You could fix the tests, how would you fix the grades?
You still haven't provided an alternative explanation, btw.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. alternative
The alternative could be a whole host of things, that would include economic disparities, cultural differences toward taking the test, lack of preparedness, and on and on. I don't pretend to have the precise answer. But I disagree with your primary position, which is that lower scores for african americans proves the test is racially biased. I don't think you can make that leap in logic until you control for other factors.

As for grades, are you saying grading is racially biased too?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Those are all fit my explanations.
"economic disparities"

That's #1. Racial discrimination, could be fixed by affirmitive action.

"cultural differences toward taking the test, lack of preparedness"

That's #2. The belief that black people are inferior. Again, can be addressed with affirmative action.

"and on and on."

Anything that doesn't fit into the two categories I already described?

"As for grades, are you saying grading is racially biased too?"

Yes, of course they are. It's well known. Black students get lower grades for the same quality of work. They're also more harshly punished for the same disciplinary problems.



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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. ...
They're also more harshly punished for the same disciplinary problems.

See the Jena 6, most recently.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Jena 6 was a freak incident.
Really, little stuff happens thousands of times a day all over the country. It's much more insidious.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. As for grades, are you saying grading is racially biased too?
you obviously know very little about the state of public education in this country

you should read up on it, if you can stomach it.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. we need some definitions, stat
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 04:39 PM by hiphopnation23
"the test is racially biased" i take this to mean not the structure of the test, but an average student's resources at effectively preparing for it. iow, the resources at the disposal of a teacher and student at preparing that student to take the test, and score well, are biased, based on race, and probably also, to a large extent, on class.

"fix the test" i take this to mean that the structure of the test needs fixing.

whatever the case, in order to entertain your hypothetical, you must presuppose that the test is racially biased. whether you agree with that or not is immaterial to your fallacious conclusion.

but again, w/o definitions of these terms, we're talking past each other.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Then what's your explanation?
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. There's another possibility:
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. An effort to explain bias in testing is here
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. yes
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Yes.
As long as equally or better qualified applicants for jobs are turned away simply for being a racial minority there is a need for Affirmative Action. We still have quite a long way to go in this country before we have actual equality under the law.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. I heard a good example of why it's needed this past weekend
In the 1940s, returning veterans received the GI Bill. Except black veterans weren't able to reap the benefits of the GI Bill.

So white returning vets had houses and paid a mortgage rather than rent, and when their kids were finished with high school, they had equity to borrow against to send them to college. And then, when they died, their kids inherited this house, which led to increased wealth for their children, grandchildren, etc.

But black returning vets didn't have the GI Bill. So when they returned, they continued to rent. And they didn't have money to send their kids to college. And they didn't have a house to leave their kids when they died.

Just that one bit of institutionalized racism is still being felt by us today, 60 years later. And that is just one piece of racism. That certainly isn't the only racist thing that has happened in the US. It's huge and it isn't something that will self-correct.

Here's an article I found about this particular issue: http://www.dollarsandsense.org/blog/2006/12/econamici-w...
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes!!!
Group launches petition drive to ban some race, gender preferences

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/topstories/artic...

Anne Ryman and Matthew Benson
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 5, 2007 01:03 PM

A group that wants to ban race or gender preference in state hiring, contracting and
university admissions launched a petition drive today to get the initiative on the 2008 ballot.


The filing with the Secretary of State, which was expected, comes as universities, agencies
and other groups begin looking at how such a ban would affect Arizona. Similar measures have
been approved in California, Washington and Michigan.

Some experts believe the measure, filed by the Arizona Civil Rights Initiative, could limit
university control of minority-based scholarships andrecruiting efforts. In California,
the law also has been blamed for a drop in government contracts for minority and women-
owned businesses and a decline in Latino and Black enrollment at some colleges.


University officials say it could have less impact on schools here than in California because
gender and race are not factors in admitting students. However, race and gender can be taken
into consideration for admission to Arizona law schools. Supporters of the initiative claim that
race and gender are used more in admissions than universities acknowledge.

The proposals in other states generated plenty of controversy and court challenges. Arizona is
unlikely to be an exception. Both supporters and opponents think proponents will find it easy
to collect the required 230,047 valid signatures by July 3, for a vote in November. Maricopa
County Attorney Andrew Thomas is chairman of the Arizona initiative.

Arizona is one of five states that organizers are focusing on for 2008,
along with Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma.



The wording in Arizona's initiative is similar to the one that passed in California.


snip-->

Shaun Harper, an assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who has studied
minority enrollment in university, called the initiative "ridiculous."

"It's probably the biggest political sin that will ultimately affect higher education
in negative ways," he said.


more.....



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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R 4 Swamp's reply! n/t
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm 43. My life overlaps the Jim Crow period. I've met and talked to people affected by it
even if there was no discrimination now (an unlikely proposition), it would seem reasonable to continue affirmative action at least until the generation that could remember Jim Crow was mostly gone. It would be more just to extend it for the same period of time blacks were denied Civil Rights after they were given their freedom.

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Interesting time-line
I have wondered how will society know when the pendulum has swung far enough the other direction to equal a balance.

Ultimately, the time will be right when discrimination ends - though I doubt it will end completely in our lifetimes. The human species needs to make another evolutionary leap for that to happen.

But if I were to guess on a time-line, I'd like to think yours would suffice (being an optimist). :hi:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'n sure all those newly minted Federalist society judges
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 10:30 AM by mmonk
in the court system believe in equal rights. :sarcasm:
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. WTF are we going to do to purge ourselves of the Fascist Society judges?
I've been meaning to start a new thread about that hideous operation.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. We probably need it more today than we did twenty years ago.
:kick:
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bush's top civil rights official says minorities don't get old "like white people do".
Yes, we still need Affirmative Action
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. with health insurance the way it is, white people don't get old the way white people used to
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. ABSOLUTELY! Does racism still exist in this country? n/t
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. you might be surprised at the answer you get from some americans (eom)
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. No. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised.
:(
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. As long as racism exists in this country...
As long as racism exists in this country then yes, Affirmative Action is necessary. So I (unfortunately) believe Affirmative Action will be needed for a very, very long time.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
48. Yep. Fix education, and then we can talk.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
55. yes
I think we also need to account for socio-economic factors, but race and socio-economic factors often, but not always, work in conjunction with each other. What we need is a more complex way of addressing the issue--like holistic evaluations--but affirmative action is better than nothing.

Now, to those of you who are going to kvetch about deserving whites being kept out of our institutions of higher learning, I have news for you. BULLSHIT! I teach college kids at one of America's best universities and I can tell you that, by my estimation, about 40% simply do not "deserve" to be here and could be replaced by any warm piece of flesh. How do they get picked? By joining the right clubs in high school, having access to the right classes to get the right GPA, having the money to get SAT prep classes, etc. Many of them, despite these things that are supposed to indicate academic success, cannot write or reason with greater acuity than students I teach who get in the "back door" (i.e., those who transfer from community colleges).
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