Teens charged with felony animal cruelty for killing pet fish?

[ecstatic]

Early Sunday morning, authorities say two teenagers dumped liquid and powder dishwashing detergent into White's koi pond, killing 30 fish and causing about $4,000 in damages.

Pinellas County sheriff's deputies arrested Sean Michael Smith and Neal Shikarpuri, both 17-year-old Palm Harbor residents. They are accused of felony animal cruelty and felony criminal mischief.

Their arrest brought White some comfort - he would pay to individually pressure wash each of the rocks in his pond and eventually replace the fish, he said. He and his family mourned their dead pets, which had been given simple names such as Phil, Henry, Gloria and Mike.

http://suncoastpinellas.tbo.com/content/2007/nov/04/fish-kill-leads-arrest-palm-harbor-teens/?news

While I certainly agree with the "felony criminal mischief" charges, I'm not so sure I agree with the "felony animal cruelty" charges.

[Mojorabbit]

1. I do for the reason

that they were pets. If you put the same standard to all fish though there would be a big problem with fishermen.

[Deep13]

2. Depends how the statute defines "animal cruelty."

The owners probably thought it was cruel.

[MrCoffee]

7. Here's the statute:

828.12. Cruelty to animals

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/fl_cruel.htm

[ecstatic]

11. Do fish feel pain?

I know the larger, whales/dolphins do, but what about the smaller ones? Shellfish? Etc?

[MrCoffee]

12. doesn't matter...it's the "cruel death" part that will apply

it should be fairly easy for a prosecutor to convince a jury that suffocation in a pool of detergent is a "cruel death"

[piedmont]

16. Wow! That statute is so vague that anyone who ever used bug spray could be charged. nt

[Deep13]

30. The definition turns on necessity...

...which is a bit disturbing since all conventional uses for animals may be convenient, customary or profitable, but hardly necessary.

[BridgeTheGap]

3. Wanna see some serious animal cruelty?

Visit a slaughter house!

[LeftyMom]

4. Fish are animals. Killing them by poisoning and suffocation is certainly cruel.

While some cruelty statutes exclude fish (and often birds) if those in Florida do not what they did certainly qualifies.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. So are cockroaches.

Luckily, we get to poison those.

[LeftyMom]

25. I guess I missed the part where backyard koi spread disease and eat people's food.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I guess I missed that part too.

Maybe because you didn't include it in your definition of cruelty to animals?

[LeftyMom]

32. As I said, what constitutes an animal for purposes of cruelty statutes varies

Federal laws, for example, exempt poultry from most laws protecting farmed animals. As far as I know, no law in the US covers insects and other invertebrates.

[MrCoffee]

5. get 'em on whatever charges stick

if the DA can make felony animal cruelty, they should be charged with it. my guess is that they'll plead to the cruelty charge and get an additional sentence tacked on to the criminal mischief.

[atreides1]

6. I'm not so sure I agree with the "felony animal cruelty" charges.

Unless the fish were able to breathe dishwashing detergent, I would agree that it was a cruelty, what if they had put a kitten in a plastic bag and sucked all the air out of it, would you say that was animal cruelty?

[sandnsea]

8. Reverse for me

Bubbles in a koi pond is kinda funny and I get teens doing that. But they knew this would kill the fish because it had been done before. They should be made to clean the koi pond themselves, and spend a year working at an animal shelter. Money is too disconnected to personal consequences and isn't really useful in teaching lessons to kids.

[flvegan]

9. FS 828.12 "Cruelty to animals"

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

FS 828.02 defines an animal as "any living dumb creature"

I know these by heart.

[LeftyMom]

26. I was hoping you'd clear up what the law is down there.

Thank you dear.

[Cerridwen]

10. Because animal cruelty applies to even those that aren't cute and cuddly?

What do you think dish washing detergent does to a koi?

I don't know if fish feel or suffer. But what kind of person purposely causes harm to another living creature just for fun? Oh yeah, that would be the guy in the WH who used to blow up frogs. I'm not sure the frogs felt anything, either, but do you consider it cruelty to do so?

[ecstatic]

14. I do think it's cruel behavior, certainly

But I don't think it's comparable to cat/dog or even chicken cruelty.

[Cerridwen]

18. Hierarchy of value? Hierarchy of pain? Hierarchy of suffering?

Careful there. It's addictive and historically the results have been horrendous.

Where do you draw the line? Pulling wings off flies is okay, too, yet alarming how many cruel people exhibited that behavior as children.

Examples of cruel behavior for the sake of nothing more than cruelty or fun should, I think, result in quick response. I don't know about the legal angle, but these kids need some serious discussion about killing for the sake of killing or fun.

I wonder what other creatures they would enjoy killing?

[AngryAmish]

15. I suffocate fish all the time

Take fish out of water, it dies from suffocation. Sometimes I bang them on the head but not usually.

I don't want the cops called on me.

That said, they should pay for what they did.

[gollygee]

17. What if someone goes fishing?

Think of what they're doing! And to the worms. Oh, the poor worms!

I seem to remember from some long-ago biology class that fish don't feel pain. Was that incorrect?

[slackmaster]

20. Not legally or morally the same as killing someone's pets

That seems pretty obvious to me.

:eyes:

[gollygee]

21. The pets are someone's property

but in order to suffer from cruelty you have to be able to feel pain or register in some way what is happening.

Certainly they should be charged with something but I don't think "animal cruelty" is the right charge. Maybe malicious destruction of property.

[slackmaster]

23. The law does not have to make perfect logical sense

We all know there are plenty of laws on the books that don't.

[Cerridwen]

22. You think they planned to eat what they poisoned?

Or maybe a little "catch and release"?

I think the angle is intent.

[LeftyMom]

27. Yes, that's incorrect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

[DearAbby]

19. Had she waterboarded the fish instead, she would be fine. n/t

[aikoaiko]

24. The state will have to prove the kids intended to harm the fish

Making fountains and ponds with circulating water bubble over with suds is a fairly common prank. All they have to do is make the claim that they didn't know there were fish in the pond or didn't think they would be affected by the suds.

I predict the animal cruelty will be dropped if they plead to criminal mischief.

[flvegan]

29. This is the third incident at this same koi pond.

Seems pretty clear.

[cali]

28. For whatever it's worth

people who keep koi, are generally passionately fond of them. I know that has nothing to do with the law in this case, but it's certainly true that people with koi ponds often think of the koi as pets.