"Damnedest thing you've ever seen."

[NNN0LHI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071102/wl_asia_afp/usjapanwarnuclearbombsurvivors

Hiroshima survivors upset pilot never said sorry

Fri Nov 2, 12:27 AM ET

TOKYO (AFP) - Japanese survivors of the world's first nuclear attack on Hiroshima voiced regret Friday that the American pilot of the plane that dropped the bomb died without saying sorry.

Paul Warfield Tibbets, Jr., whose B-29 bomber dubbed the Enola Gay dropped the 9,000-pound "Little Boy" bomb on August 6, 1945, died Thursday at his home in the midwest city of Columbus, Ohio. He was 92.

Tibbets never expressed regret for the bombing that led to the end of World War II but at a horrific price: 140,000 dead immediately and 80,000 other Japanese succumbing in the aftermath, according to Hiroshima officials.

"He did not apologise, arguing, like the American government, that the bombing saved millions of American and Japanese lives by ending the war," said Nori Tohei, 79, who survived the bombing of the western Japanese city. snip

Although Tibbets saw little of the devastation wreaked on Hiroshima, he would walk the streets of Nagasaki a few weeks after the second atom bomb was dropped there.

"A couple of the streets we walked had swelled," he told the Columbus Dispatch in 2003, as he described the buckling of the earth caused by the intensity of the blast. "Damnedest thing you've ever seen."

[Swamp Rat]

1. "Damnedest thing you've ever seen."

What a swell egg.

[niyad]

2. well, his kharmic debt is going to have to be paid, especially since he never expressed

regret or remorse.

[dysfunctional press]

11. he has no kharmic debt to pay over it.

it wasn't his decision to drop the bomb, and it DID prevent the need for an all out invasion of japan, which would have killed MANY MANY more people on both sides.

[niyad]

25. sorry, but "following orders" is NOT going to get one out of one's kharmic debt.

you do know, don't you, that the japanese were trying to surrender? or do you only follow the approved party line?

[dysfunctional press]

41. you can't determine someone else's 'kharmic debt'...

in your mind, he has one...in my mind he doesn't. but the only one that matters is what's(was) in the mind of the person in question. he felt his actions were perfectly justified (as they were), so his kharmic slate is clean on the matter.

btw- the japanese weren't trying all that hard to surrender- even after the atomic bombs were dropped, the emperor had to step in to break a tie over the vote of whether to surrender.

[niyad]

49. what we think of the matter? what was on his mind? you obviously don't understand much

about kharma--by your statement, no matter how heinous an action, if the person thinks it's okay, then there is a clean slate-- you mean like hitler, for example? the son of sam? jeffrey daumer?

[karlrschneider]

54. Uh, do you consider Karma to be something that actually exists?

As something more than randomness and the law of averages, I mean...

[dysfunctional press]

59. what he (karlschneider) said...

plus one of these:

:eyes:

[JanMichael]

52. The only thing that matters is what was in the mind of the person

at the time?

Are you serious? That's your moral/ethical yardstick?

[dysfunctional press]

58. 'kharma' is a personal thing, not an actual force.

each person has their own kharmic yardstick/moral compass...but it only works for themselves and their own actions.

[Warpy]

13. They chose him well

since he focused on damage to THINGS and completely missed the horror he brought to people.

It would have been possible to justify the bombing while apologizing to the poeple who had nothing to do with the war who were caught in its blast.

It just never occurred to him to try.

[TwilightGardener]

3. He was under no obligation to apologize--he does not bear the responsibility

for the decisions our government made at the time. And he did save countless AMERICAN lives by ending the Pacific war. Hey, let's not forget--the Japanese started it.

[DS1]

5. correct

[malaise]

18. Don't forget who started this mess in Iraq either n/t

[TwilightGardener]

22. Well, yeah, that was OUR bad. No doubt.

[mudesi]

55. I hate this kind of talk

American lives are no more valuable than Japanese lives.

And if you can say the pilot is not responsible for the actions of the government, then surely you would agree that the Japanese civilians murdered on that day did not "start it".

[TwilightGardener]

60. Sorry, but I do value American lives more when we are attacked on

our own soil by an enemy. We had a right to defend ourselves, and we had a right to end the war in that manner--quickly and decisively, saving our own soldiers and resources in the process. The Japanese drove us to it--they were simply going to keep fighting. It's not desirable to target civilians, but...it sure had the desired effect, after 4 years of terrible loss and brutality. And if they had had the bomb, you can bet your ASS they would have used it on our cities.

[shaniqua6392]

4. I heard that he wanted to be buried in an unmarked grave

because he did not want anyone to wreak havoc on his grave marker.

[TwilightGardener]

7. That's sad--what a burden he must have carried around, even if he didn't publicly express it.

[Az]

6. In their cultural belief this is significant

Because he died without acknowledging the hurt he caused he cannot pass on to a peaceful rest. They believe his spirit will be tethered to this realm and continue to suffer until he can let go of the pain.

[eFriendly]

8. Tibbets had absolutely nothing to apologize for, as far as I am concerned. n/t

[Didereaux]

9. Our culture is not the only one to contain irrational whiners...n/t

[JuniperLea]

10. Tibbets merely flew the plane...

Didn't the the guy who actually let the bomb fly commit suicide? I'd think that would be enough.

I'm reading stories today that this is a rumor... but Tibbets was the pilot, not the bombardier, so I doubt it was rumor. Where is the other guy?

That last interview with Tibbets was revealing... he kept repeating something about doing a job. He had his orders. What would have happened if he had disobeyed his orders?


Edited to find the name...

Maj. Thomas W. Ferebee, bombardier

Edited again to say, nope... he lived to be 81...

http://www.mishalov.com/Ferebee.html

[Az]

14. Missing the point

They are not upset that they did not receive an apology. In their belief system if a person dies with regrets or other issues unresolved they cannot move on. They become shackled to the earth. This is an expression of sympathy from them. Its like if someone died and a Christian expressed regret that they never accepted Jesus as their savior.

[kestrel91316]

12. Paul Tibbets saved my grandfather's life. In 1945 my grandfather,

who had been drafted into the army at the age of 37 and left a wife and daughter (my mom) behind, was headed for Japan with the invasion force. Because of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, the invasion was cancelled and my grandfather spent the next year guarding Japanese POWs in the Phillippines. One of them gave him a scarf with Japanese writing on it, which we treasure to this day.

So I guess I don't harbor the man any ill will, for strictly personal reasons. I would never have known my grandfather if those bombs hadn't been dropped (he almost certainly would have died in the invasion).

War is a terrible thing. It forces men (and women) to do terrible things. Many innocent people die needless, horrific deaths. This is why we need to oppose it wherever and whenever we can.

We struck hard against Japan because they hit us first. But we struck the first blow against Iraq, so we can't complain much about what happens to us there.

[bigscott]

15. and my dad's

My father was at Guadalcanal and Tulagi - he was preparing for the invasion of the "Home Islands" when the war ended - and that is what the bomb did - it ended the war.

Hiroshima was a truly horrible event, as was Nagasaki, and Hamburg and Dresden and London and Stalingrad and Warsaw and on and on

[MUSTANG_2004]

53. Yep, mine too

He was to be shipped to the Pacific theater after finishing training as a gunner in the Air Corps. Then the bomb was dropped and he went home instead.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. He was only following orders.

:shrug:

[riverdeep]

17. People reading this thread need to know that there is another side.

There are historians who argue that the bombings were not necessary, and many more argue that all means to avoid the nuclear option were not taken. I'm agnostic on this issue. It's easy to play armchair quarterback, but also needed to avoid the same mistakes.

Here is a page containing the quick summary of reasons it might have been overkill:

http://www.doug-long.com/summary.htm

[Viva_La_Revolution]

19. I'm on the fence too

I see both sides of the argument, and I empathize with both.

[JuniperLea]

42. I'm with you on this one...

Well said.

[Odin2005]

20. More people would of died if there had been an invasion of Japan.

So dropping The Bomb was the right thing to do IMO. A few hundred thousand dead is better then several million dead.

[Bitwit1234]

21. I am outraged at the Japanese

THEY invaded this country. THEY committed outrageous acts against our military. AND when it came to invading Japan and dropping the bomb I agreed with dropping the bomb. My dear friend was ready to go in the first wave to invade Japan and it probably saved his life.

And the Emporer of Japan had the chance to SURRENDER before theY dropped the first bomb and BEFORE theE DROPPED the SECOND bomb.So it was their choice.

Do you hear anybody walking around and saying they are sorry for all the lives lost in Japan's SNEAK attack on this country ..hell no...so it was their choice to invade, their choice to not surrender and they should be responsible for the bomb...period. I wish the people talking about this who don't know what the hell they are talking about WOULD SHUT UP.

[NNN0LHI]

23. THEY invaded this country?

Are you sure about that?

Don

[piedmont]

26. Yes, they did. nt

[NNN0LHI]

28. Hawaii didn't become one of the US states until 1959 n/t

[piedmont]

30. They didn't invade Hawaii.

[Recovered Repug]

27. Well, they did hold a couple of Alaskan islands for awhile, so I

guess technically they did.

[NNN0LHI]

29. Same for Alaska. 1958 n/t

[piedmont]

32. 1959, actually. nt

[NNN0LHI]

34. It was a close call

“President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the Alaska Statehood Act into United States law on 7 July 1958 which paved the way for Alaska’s admission into the Union on January 3, 1959.”

I think my point is still valid though.

Don

[piedmont]

36. It was part of this country in 1942, though.

If you don't see that as Japan invading this country, you're moving the goalpost.

[NNN0LHI]

39. Thats what our government said. Not the islanders who lived there

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/gp/17661.htm

Annexation of Hawaii, 1898

America's annexation of Hawaii in 1898 extended U.S. territory into the Pacific and highlighted resulted from economic integration and the rise of the United States as a Pacific power. For most of the 1800s, leaders in Washington were concerned that Hawaii might become part of a European nation's empire. During the 1830s, Britain and France forced Hawaii to accept treaties giving them economic privileges. In 1842, Secretary of State Daniel Webster sent a letter to Hawaiian agents in Washington affirming U.S. interests in Hawaii and opposing annexation by any other nation. He also proposed to Great Britain and France that no nation should seek special privileges or engage in further colonization of the islands. In 1849, the United States and Hawaii concluded a treaty of friendship that served as the basis of official relations between the parties.

A key provisioning spot for American whaling ships, fertile ground for American protestant missionaries, and a new source of sugar cane production, Hawaii's economy became increasingly integrated with the United States. An 1875 trade reciprocity treaty further linked the two countries and U.S. sugar plantation owners from the United States came to dominate the economy and politics of the islands. When Queen Liliuokalani moved to establish a stronger monarchy, Americans under the leadership of Samuel Dole deposed her in 1893. The planters' belief that a coup and annexation by the United States would remove the threat of a devastating tariff on their sugar also spurred them to action. The administration of President Benjamin Harrison encouraged the takeover, and dispatched sailors from the USS Boston to the islands to surround the royal palace. The U.S. minister to Hawaii, John L. Stevens, worked closely with the new government.

Dole sent a delegation to Washington in 1894 seeking annexation, but the new President, Grover Cleveland, opposed annexation and tried to restore the Queen. Dole declared Hawaii an independent republic. Spurred by the nationalism aroused by the Spanish-American War, the United States annexed Hawaii in 1898 at the urging of President William McKinley. Hawaii was made a territory in 1900, and Dole became its first governor. Racial attitudes and party politics in the United States deferred statehood until a bipartisan compromise linked Hawaii's status to Alaska, and both became states in 1959.

[piedmont]

44. Why in the hell are you talking about Hawaii? Japan didn't invade Hawaii.

I haven't said a word about Hawaii.

[riverdeep]

47. This is off topic,

but reading through your post, it just makes me shake my head whenever I hear Libertarians talk. They have this idea in their heads of a magical time when America stayed out of the affairs of other nations. There was never such a time. Not from the moment settlers landed.

[Parche]

24. Exactly

I was in Hawaii, Pearl Harbor 3weeks ago for the submarine USS Wahoo memorial ceremony,
I met the son of the famous exec of the Wahoo, who wrote 2books about his experiences
The famous Medal Of Honor recipient Dick Okane, who would not have survived the captivity
at a POW camp in Japan, in fact he was so sick, he had less then 3weeks to live probably.
:hi:

[Javaman]

31. Tit for tat...

they appologize for Pearl Harbor we appologize for the bomb.

But since Japan refuses to this day to appologize for basically starting a world war, they can go scratch for all I care.

[piedmont]

33. Much more than just Pearl Harbor. Nanking, Bataan Death March, Korean sex slaves, etc. etc.

It's a damned long list.

[Javaman]

35. Oh I know, I'm currently reading...

"The Rape of Nanking". Good lord. The Japanese Army back then gave a whole new meaning to the word atrocity.

What a heart breaking account.

[niyad]

50. hmm, you mean like the accounts of the atrocities committe against the indigenous people of this

land? care to read some of the history of this country? it isn't pretty.

[Javaman]

57. okay, that was out of the blue.

thought we were talking about wwii.

I have read extensively on the crimes against the native americans.

anyway, have a nice day.

[mitchtv]

40. They do a lot of playing the victim

yet they teach their children little of the crimes they perpetrated, and have been notoriously slow at handling claims against them for war crimes, so I have little sympathy. The pilot did his job.

[EFerrari]

46. I hope you are outraged for all the Japanese war crimes against

innocent civilians and their succeeding generations, too.

Because that would be justice.

[mudesi]

56. Yeah, right

You're saying murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people is justified because (fill in the blank).

Osama agrees.

The xenophobes that crop up every time this is brought up sicken me.

[niyad]

37. were there studies done on the environmental impact of the bombs? long term effects of radiation,

etc? I know there were some reports last year about children still being born with defects due to the bombs.

[piedmont]

38. Just that big lizard that stomped Tokyo.

[countryjake]

43. Has the US ever apologized for murdering civilians?

Kind of like defining the difference between "unconventional warfare" and terrorism.

Or "freedom fighter" and terrorist.

Whether one makes a distinction between the two or not, some who were fighting for America in the Pacific when the bombs were dropped never got over feeling responsible for the horror that the Japanese civilians suffered. Pretty hard to feel proud of your own service while rationalizing or excusing all of those supposed "necessary casualties" in the single, most violent act in the history of mankind.

[EFerrari]

45. Maybe this disgrace will just be bunched with the whole Bush residency. n/t

[zagging]

48. Neither did those who filled the fuel tanks on Enola Gay.

Or those who refined the oil...
Or those who filled the tires with air so he could take off...
Or those who washed the windshield so he could see clearly...
Or those who made the steel for the aircraft...
Or those who built the runway...
Or the air traffic controllers who saw him safely into the sky...
Or those who tightened the bolts...
Or those who built the props...
Or the engineers who designed the plane...
Or the farmers who fed them all...

I really don't think placing such a burden one one man is proper. What happened, happened as a result of war, and the whole country was part of it. You can take it all the way back to the big bang, or the Creator if you prefer.

I'd probably be defensive and bitter too. RIP Colonel.

[nonconformist]

51. Have the Japanese ever apologized for Pearl Harbor and starting WW2?

I'm sincerely asking, because I don't know.

If they haven't, feh.