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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:31 PM
Original message
Mother jailed, put on trial in Orange County CA for curing her son of melanoma
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 10:22 PM by proud patriot
(edited for copyright purposes-proud patriot moderator Democratic Underground)

Mother Jailed, Put On Trial for Curing Her Son of Melanoma
October 3, 2007

An unholy alliance of California Child Protective Services (CPS) with a hostile doctor and judge is attempting to railroad Laurie Jessop, framed as a threat to her son and the establishment for finding a way to cure him of malignant melanoma. She is now on trial, under a gag order, since she had gone to the press. When she was arrested, she was put in maximum security, solitary confinement, in the Orange County, CA jail. They claim that everything about. her says anti-Establishment, so she was told, as she was considered a threat in starting a riot.

On the morning of Sept. 12, Gary Null read on KPFK, a Pacifica station in Los Angeles, an e-mail from Ron Miller, who had met Ms. Jessop at the Cancer Control Society annual convention during the Labor Day weekend. They had discussed this persecution by Big Brother in the guise of saving her son from this evil mother who has failed to protect him! She disobeyed doctors orders and found a natural way to cure her son. These forces arrayed against her and insisted he must have the cancer removed surgically and attacked with the standard chemical fare. The cancer is gone, but nobody in authority will accept that because her doctor doesnt believe thats possible.

On May 8, Chad Jessop had a follow up appointment with a medical group doctor, by the name of Dr. Masciana, who insisted he needed surgery to excise the site within a week, or he could die any day now! This doctor is a general practitioner, not an oncologist or qualified to do cancer diagnosis or surgery. Chad and his mom decided to pursue holistic treatment for him.

Incensed, the doctor reported her to Child Protective Services on the grounds of gross negligent child endangerment. She yelled at Laurie all of you Jehovahs Witnesses are all the same, never mind Laurie and Chad are not Jehovahs witnesses. Dr. Masciana also told Laurie, with her son present, that his death was imminent. At the close of the appointment, Dr. Masciana informed Laurie that she was referring the case to Social Services. In further investigation, Child Protective Social Services is a misnamed government agency whose employees get paid bonuses every time they take children away from their parents.


To read more of the unbelievable abuse of power:


http://angryscientist.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/mother-j... /
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Orange County, unqualified Pro-Tort "reform" "Doctor"...
lowly and overpaid Bureaucrats (CPS), and the law, now there's a combination that will give you a ton of trouble.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good.
I'm fine if grown adults want to kill themselves with that crystal crap, but don't condemn kids to die.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank you. Hope you have a flameproof suit at the ready, however.
One must NEVER EVER challenge the anti-medical camp.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Like I've got anything to worry about from people that support this shit.
What are they going to do? Hex me with their holistic acupuncture needles?
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
155. You are in direct violation of the DU Rules.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #155
205. um...
what rule would that be?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #205
213. That would be the secret rule gamma, which reads,
"those who disagree with dbt are in clear violation of The Rules, and must be informed of this after every single post."
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Susang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #213
278. That's funny, I can't find that one anywhere!
My super-secret DU rules book must be out of date! ;(
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #155
217. So, delete the post, or ban him.
Oh wait, you can't.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Have you heard about Naturopathic medicine? n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Sure.
Why?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Some of the steps taken by this mother appears to be naturopathic. n/t
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 03:56 PM by flashl
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, and? That's my point.
Naturopathic medicine's a load of bullshit too.

:shrug:
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. In the end, its about whats regulated and whats not. Isn't it? n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, sure.
CPS regulated that this woman was a danger to her child.

Thank goodness.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. And You Trust All Allopathic Doctors?


Wow, lotsa luck to ya on that one, Dude!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I trust some of them.
All alternative doctors are quacks, by definition.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. By who's definition? n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The scientific method's.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Okay, You're Debating Doctors
but how about Alternative Treatments themselves? For example Rife Machines have been scientifically proven years ago but shot down by the Pharmaceutical Companies because it would take away their business. Do a Google search and be surprised. There are other Alternative Treatments that work too.

When you think of Scientific Studies you need to consider who is funding those Studies
and their reasoning behind it. ;)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. They're bullshit too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Rife

Thanks for telling me to do a google search on that particular bit of nonsense. It's worth a good laugh.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I Guess That's Your Opinion
not the opinion of Wikipedia, and apparently you didn't look very far.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Yes, that's true.
It's my own opinion that his magical microscope can see cancer viruses and blow them up by exciting their resonances thereby curing cancer is hilarious.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. A Rife Machine Uses Electricity
to eliminate Cancer Cells. Like I said, you didn't look very far.
Did you search any farther than Wikipedia? I didn't think so.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Wow, electricity!
Do they employ the harmonic four-sided timecube too?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No, no, that's very up-to-date
for 1910. I wonder, does it work better with an all-purpose morphine tonic?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Is there a coal-powered steam engine version?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Good God.
:eyes: Do any of you people's brains ever go beyond the four walls? :banghead:

Holy Christ. :eyes:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Yep. And we always make sure to bring our trusty Scientific Method with us. nt
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SyntaxError Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
268. lol... I haven't seen that in awhile.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
266. 2004 cancer research journal study seems to support Rife's work

Disruption of Cancer Cell Replication by Alternating Electric Fields


Eilon D. Kirson1, Zoya Gurvich2, Rosa Schneiderman2, Erez Dekel3, Aviran Itzhaki4, Yoram Wasserman1,4, Rachel Schatzberger2 and Yoram Palti2

1 Department of Biomedical Engineering, NovoCure Ltd., Haifa, Israel; 2 B. Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, TechnionIsrael Institute of Technology, Haifa, Israel; 3 Department of Molecular Cell Biology, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel; and 4 Elisha Medical Centre, Haifa, Israel

>snip<
Low-intensity, intermediate-frequency (100300 kHz), alternating electric fields, delivered by means of insulated electrodes, were found to have a profound inhibitory effect on the growth rate of a variety of human and rodent tumor cell lines (Patricia C, U-118, U-87, H-1299, MDA231, PC3, B16F1, F-98, C-6, RG2, and CT-26) and malignant tumors in animals. This effect, shown to be nonthermal, selectively affects dividing cells while quiescent cells are left intact. These fields act in two modes: arrest of cell proliferation and destruction of cells while undergoing division. Both effects are demonstrated when such fields are applied for 24 h to cells undergoing mitosis that is oriented roughly along the field direction. The first mode of action is manifested by interference with the proper formation of the mitotic spindle, whereas the second results in rapid disintegration of the dividing cells. Both effects, which are frequency dependent, are consistent with the computed directional forces exerted by these specific fields on charges and dipoles within the dividing cells. In vivo treatment of tumors in C57BL/6 and BALB/c mice (B16F1 and CT-26 syngeneic tumor models, respectively), resulted in significant slowing of tumor growth and extensive destruction of tumor cells within 36 days. These findings demonstrate the potential applicability of the described electric fields as a novel therapeutic modality for malignant tumors.

>snip<
DISCUSSION

In this study, we have shown that when properly tuned, very low-intensity, intermediate-frequency electric fields (TTFields) stunt the growth of cancerous cells. We have demonstrated this inhibitory effect in all proliferating cell types tested, whereas, nonproliferating cells and tissues were unaffected. Interestingly, different types of cancerous cells showed specific intensity and frequency dependences of TTField inhibition. We have demonstrated that two main processes occur at the cellular level during exposure to TTFields: arrest of proliferation and cell destruction. The damage caused by TTFields to these replicating cells was shown to be dependent on the orientation of the division process in relation to the field vectors, indicating that this effect is nonthermal. Indeed, temperature measurements made within culture dishes during treatment and on the skin above treated tumors in vivo, showed no significant elevation in temperature compared with control cultures/mice. Also, TTFields caused the dividing cells to orient in the direction of the applied field in a manner similar to that described in cultured human corneal epithelial cells exposed to constant electric fields (17) . At the subcellular level, we have found evidence indicating that TTFields disrupt the normal polymerization-depolymerization process of microtubules during mitosis. Indeed, the described abnormal mitotic configurations seen after exposure to TTFields are similar to the morphological abnormalities seen in cells treated with agents that interfere directly (18 , 19) or indirectly (20, 21, 22) with microtubule polymerization (e.g., Taxol).

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/64/9...



Royal Rife reportedly used an inert gas plasma tube to transmit highly tuned harmonic frequencies as radio waves, frequencies determined by his optical microscope and light-splitting prism that illumined the cells, to kill cancer.

His former student, a man by the surname Crane, denounced as a quack after a lawsuit he reportedly lost, used hand-held electrodes to deliver electrically based high frequency treatments for cancer. Reportedly, Crane didn't use a microscope to determine the frequency to use as Rife did, but rather used a list of frequencies he learned from Rife's previous treatments.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #266
269. Great Find! Good Post!
Now lets see if any of the Naysayers will open their closed minds.....
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #269
306. Yes we all know that mice have THE EXACT same physiology
as people. FYI in science research things that show promise in mice almost NEVER turn out to work quite as well in the human system. Anybody remember leptoprin? It miraculously melted fat off of mice- and although it has shown to have some help in humans, it is not NEARLY as effective. In any kind of clinical research, animal studies are the very PRELIMINARY work- the pre clinical work...your looking at probably at least 5-6 years of study on humans before any conclusions can be made.
I would say you need to understand what you are looking at in a scientific journal..and being a bit more critical in your thinking.
Of course its a lot easier (and intellectually lazy btw) to just say that I am closed minded...
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #306
308. Oh I'm Very Critical In My Thinking
but more critical of mainstream medicine. Not for everything, but a lot.

On the subject of Rife I've known quite a few people that have used it and it has worked for them. There are many more that I don't personally know. This could equal out to at least 5 - 6 years study on Humans, but you will never find any of this published in Scientific Journals mostly for negative Political reasons.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #308
314. That's actually an astute observation.
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 08:48 PM by SimpleTrend
Royal Rife's public newspaper announcement was dated 1938 in San Diego's The Evening Tribune. It's been what, about 70 years? That's plenty of time for BIG corporate MONEY to have advanced past MICE studies.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Wow...nutso
That's some weird shit. What was it that P. T. Barnum said? :)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. I think it was...
"Fuck me running, these people is stupid."

-P.T. Barnum, 1897.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #64
229. LMAO!!
:rofl:

I think I'll print out this quote and put it on my office wall.

:D

Thanks!
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
156. You are in direct violation of the DU Rules.
Look 'em up, especially #4.

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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #156
219. It isn't bigotry when it's a fact, friend.
"4.Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements."

Any asshole could cite that rule to have something s/he disagreed with removed, if it were interpreted broadly enough. How's that shoe fit you, dbt? And do you realize that by citing that rule, you just called a fellow DUer a troll, which is itself a rule violation?

Oh, wait, look, there's more to the rule! Dig: "The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum."

Now I KNOW that shoe's gotta a fit just right.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #219
265. The Statement "They're Bullshit Too" Is NOT A Fact
it's an opinion so it appears you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry. :spank:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #265
275. Ah, good. Please provide peer-reviewed double-blind studies
specifically supporting use of these methods.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #265
292. Indeed, "bullshit" is an opinion.
But it's a fact that it doesn't work, doesn't cure cancer, is fraudelent, and so on an so forth.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #292
301. But It's A Fact That It DOES Work
and is not fraudulent. It all depends on who you believe I guess.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #301
303. No, it doesn't.
That's a fact.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #303
309. Works For Me
and that's a fact. If it works for anyone else, it's a fact for them too. Can't dispute that! :P
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #309
315. The plural of anecdote is not "data." nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #156
230. Seen it, how does it violate rule #4?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
165. Not true. Check out evidence-based medicine
Some "alternative" methods are quackery, and some work.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. No
some of it is good stuff but black salve can be very dangerous to use. There have been people scarred badly from it which is why most people no longer use it. It does work on small cancers but will eat away healty tissue too. I would not ever let someone use it on a child. Some naturopathic treatments are bogus but some are fine and work well esp simple herbal remedies for simple problems. The problem is most people are not educated enough to tell the good from bogus.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
122. God
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 07:07 PM by BoneDaddy
you think you know everything.
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
198. You need to do some reading. Most medicine comes from natural sources
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 09:56 PM by Morereason
I don't believe in crystals, but if I got cancer I would go straight to nutritional naturopathic methods. Why? Because I have READ up and there is plenty of evidence. There is also a growng body of evidence that cutting cancerous lesions and tumors can actually **spread** some cancers.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #198
225. It is not a growing body of evidence
It is a well known fact that when a tumor is only partially removed it may cause it to metastasize. This has been known for many, many decades. It is why so much healthy tissue is cut away during cancer surgery in an attempt to "get it all". And usually after surgery there is doses of chemotherapy to prevent the smaller tumors from forming. Well known scientific fact taken into account during all cancer treatment.

Believe it or not, there is a slow-motion revolution in cancer treatment going on. Survival rates are much higher than even twenty years ago. If you want to use crystals and rutabagas, fine. But you are going to die much sooner than you would have.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #198
267. Thank You!!!
:applause:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #198
295. Simply not true.
There are a number of small molecule drugs where natural products served as leads. That is the drug is a derivative a natural product, or a synthetic drug uses the same receptor as a natural product.

But very, very few pharmaceuticals are natural products.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Naturopathic doctors are licensed in my state, and covered by insurance.
But this boy had clean biopsies done by regular M.D.'s -- and the state is still prosecuting her. This is disgusting.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Washington is a moderate state.
Can't accuse them of being extreme.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. WA is a swing state,
with a large group in the middle, though we have our share of "extremists" on both ends of the spectrum.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
93. Washington Is Cool.
I used to live there. But this is California. :crazy: And Orange County at that. :crazy:

Everyone should have a choice between Allopathic Treatment and Alternative (Naturopathic) Treatment. No one should be forced into any Medical Treatment or procedure that they feel uncomfortable with and did not choose for themselves or their children.

Holy Crap talk about Nazi Stalinistic Nanny Police State!
I thought most D.U.er's were against that but apparently not! :wow:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Oh, is that why her son
is free of cancer or are you just knee-jerkin'?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Exactly!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I wouldn't assume the kid's free of cancer.
And certainly not because of aromatherapy or emotional counseling.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
103. if he's free of cancer it's because they burned him with a chemical, excuse, me a salve
it isn't impossible that the melanoma has been removed, but it wasn't because of all the woo-woo, it would be because of the caustic agent that burned a huge wound into the area

i'd prefer a good surgeon to remove the skin cancer myself but that's me :shrug:

skin cancer is certainly curable caught in time and i don't entirely disbelieve that it could be removed in this fashion, i just think it's likely you'd have a better chance of a good outcome if you had the growth removed by a trained surgeon
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. If You Cut Cancer Cells With A Knife
very often that will make it spread. :(
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. well that's why you (may) have to have chemo backup
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 06:37 PM by pitohui
but many times skin cancer doesn't require chemo back-up, depends on the skin cancer


i don't think this mom is qualified to make the best judgment, people go to medical school for many years to get training on this topic


if he was really stage 4, then he's still going to die without chemo, (and probably with it) but i'm not sure he really was if he's cancer free now?

obviously i'm no doctor either!
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #112
134. "people go to medical school for many years to get training on this topic"
Yes, and people go to theology schools for many years to get training to be able to peddle all their religious sky fairy bullshit too, don't they?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #112
239. In most cases-- Biopsy plus radiation therapy.
In most cases-- biopsy plus radiation therapy (all other things being equal, and if caught early).
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. It's not crystals

Ms. Jessop has a website where she sells magic wands:

http://goldkhu.com/Wands_info.htm

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Crystals are what power the wands.
They've got delicious creamy quartz filling.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Holy crap, nice find
:rofl:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
131. well that was certainly instructive-- I took a look around the rest of the site...
...and it is really something. Very strange.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. My dad was a surgeon and a chief of staff at a hospital for twenty years
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 05:03 PM by shance
He would be the first to tell you of the corruption and conflicts of interest in medical procedures these days.

If you know any thing about the medical industry (important word *INDUSTRY*), you would understand this better.

Take a look at the AMA and/or the APA for that matter.

Do some research yourself.

The bottom line is they have a vested interested in people being sick.

What happens to the ethics, truth, best interest of the sick individuals and their "health" when people and INDUSTRIE$ have a vested/monetary interest in people being ill?

Put two and two together?

What does it equal?

The fraternal exclusions and greed driven problems have only been amplified since he's been gone.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. As opposed to the vested interests of alternative medicine?
Both want to make money, the difference is real medicine works.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. ROFL! Are you a pharmaceutical rep?
Your agenda Bornagain is always so obvious.

To divide, disrupt and distract.

You have no interest in learning anything new.

You think you know everything.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. No, are you a snake oil salesman?
"Your agenda Bornagain is always so obvious."

Yup, I've been consistently anti-bullshit, since day one?

"To divide, disrupt and distract."

Who's dividing, disrupting, and distracting? I'm not the one resorting to personal attacks when I run out of arguments.

"You have no interest in learning anything new. "

I'd love to learn something new. Unfortunately, people have been dying due to quackery for some time now.

"You think you know everything."

That's beside the point.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. What he says is entirely correct. I was at a CAM conference for
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 05:16 PM by Basileus Basileon
medical students in Chicago recently (I'm not one, but I was hanging out with some friends who are). A student asked the panel, "Can you make money doing this, or will I be taking a pay cut?"

The panel laughed. The first one said, "Well, I only take cash or credit card, and I'm making almost twice what I was in my old practice."
The second said, "Well, yeah, it's about the same for me."
Third, who was integrative, said, "Well, I'm not going to say I'm making less by expanding my services."
Fourth admitted to a slight pay cut, but at the same time said he had reduced his hours from his old practice.

All of them truly believed in what they were doing. All of them also were making out quite well with what they were doing.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
72. Unfortunately hooligan
has no fucking idea what you're talking about, nor the willingness to learn.
As do many other people on this Thread. :eyes:

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's a huge Corporate Racket.

"Science" my Ass! :grr:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.
I just don't believe you.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. You Don't Believe That
the A.M.A., The Pharmaceutical Corporations, and the F.D.A are all aligned
to keep people sick and on prescribed Drugs, is that what you don't believe?

I think that this is one big reason that the County is prosecuting this Woman.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Well, no.
I don't believe the dentist put tiny little radios in my filings and sending me messages in my sleep either.

"I think that this is one big reason that the County is prosecuting this Woman. "

The one big reason is that she's grossly negligent with her kid.

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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #80
223. "I don't believe the dentist put tiny little radios in my filings"
No, just mercury.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #80
264. No, the dentist only put mercury in your mouth and called it silver almagams...
Mercury isn't good for your health, it's very bad for your health, in case you didn't know.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #264
290. No but filings are good for your health.
Which is why dentists use them.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #290
302. There are other options, especially in the last thirty years, that are far
healthier and last longer than silver/mercury fillings.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #302
304. What's your point?
:D
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. I can say that I don't believe that.
Why? Because it's paranoid nonsense on the level of "the Jews and Illuminati are aligned to control the media", that's why.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
175. Unfortunately, capitalism has turned it into just that - a corporatized racket.
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 09:11 PM by shance
At least that is my conclusion.

When everything has a price tag slapped on its head, pretty soon the green paper defines the value of someone and/or something who and/or what is in fact invaluable.

How does one actually slap a price on a puppy? Or a baby for that matter? And we do know babies are sold as are puppies. How does someone define its value?

And yet people have and people go along with it because its what we've learned.

What does a transactional "purchase" of a living being feel like to the parties engaging in the transaction?

What does it do to both the "buyer" and the "bought" in such an exchange?

The buyer feels he/she OWNS the bought and paid for being, and the bought feels controlled and owned by the buyer.

A master/slave dynamic has just been created, no matter how good or well intentioned the parties are.

That is why transactional purchases of living things diminishes the true value and sacredness of ALL living things.

Not a good dynamic when you think about it.

I have to say, I've been a victim as everyone else has and frankly the whole system becomes rather 'sick' (no pun intended) when you really think about it.

How can any living thing have a price on its head? Seems to me thats when things have totally lost their true meaning.

A monetarily driven society seems it will eventually destroy everything, due to greed and a loss of soul and true meaning.

Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't think so. Look at what the monetary exchange system has done throughout history.

Remember the good ole moneychangers.

Still alive and well today, at the expense of everyone else, and themselves as well.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #175
242. I Think You Are Absolutely Right.
:(
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
99. There is no sign of melanoma. And I understand wanting
to protect children but good it isn't.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
139. Thank you.
I'm sick of all this "new age" bullshit.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
150. You are in direct violation of the Rules.
4. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion.

People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, anti-social behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a fellow progressive, a long-term member of this community, or a donor.

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #150
179. Alert is your friend.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #150
231. Mmm, no I don't think I am.
:shrug:
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #150
280. For Goodness sake...
alert the people who you believe to be in violation of the rules. If their posts are deleted (I DOUBT IT!), then good on you. But don't announce something as though you are the be all and end all authority about board rules.

And that's coming from someone who doesn't think that natural medicine is hooey. (Though I would never use it in lieu of medical treatment, I might use it in conjunction with....)

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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
157. No cancer in the biopsy, no cancer.
Cancer has been known to spontaneously disappear (there are cases of it in the med journals), so it might be one of those situations, but the reality is there's no cancer. How can it be abuse or neglect if he doesn't have what they thought he did?
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't lack of medical evidence of cancer "reasonable doubt" anymore?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. That is my question. If the kid turns out to not have cancer, doesn't that
nullify the doctor's concerns of parental negligence?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. Rec'd !! I hope she
gets resolution and justice on this..the good news is her son is free of cancer..the bad news is ..sounds like some of these drs think its the salem witch trails all over again.

Shame on that person who calls himself a dr.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. In the late 90s
I followed natural cures for cancer, there were stories of witch hunts then. The recently deceased Arlin Brown told me that when he and acquaintances introduced what they thought was a cure for cancer to the AMA, he said they were treated like mobsters.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
152. IMO, the ama and big pharma is like
the oil cartel and they ain't takin' shite from anyone or thing that threatens their strangle-hold on the monopoly of hmos and drugs(check out those tv commercials although I always mute them).

Shhhh..Wheatgrass juice therapy is very positive for all kinds of sicknesses the body goes through in retaliation from our modern crap diet and soci-e-ty.

I realize Drs are good to see for a lot of harm that happens to our bodies like broken limbs..I just wish they knew less about drugs and more about how nature is where we're coming from.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #152
169. Agreed! n/t
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:54 PM
Original message
These natural cures for cancer is why Steve McQueen is still making movies today
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
129. McQueen Was Already Rated Terminal Before He Went for Alt. Therapy
..
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #129
224. And it worked so well for him!
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #224
273. Ever Seen Someone Terminal Live Through Chemotherapy
and are they still alive? :eyes:
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. "black salve" victims

Before:



After:




http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cance...

This kid is extremely lucky.
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. So the stuff is so corrosive it just eats away the flesh, including the cancer?
Yikes!

And what if it's metastisized? I guess they'll find out if he dies. :(
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. Crazy
Why would anyone put that stuff on their face? (I went to your link....yikes!)

One tablespoon each of powdered bloodroot and polk root
*
1 tablespoon zinc chloride
*
DMSO (5 drops per 4 ounces of salve)
*
One tablespoon Charcoal (optional)
*
Vitamin A, 10,000 IU (more vitamin A can be added up to 200,000 IU.
*
Pine tar (one teaspoon to one tablespoon)
*
Pascalite clay


That's the ingredients. This sounds so much like something I'd use to get the paint stain off of the floor in the garage.
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scorpiogirl Donating Member (662 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. How they treated her was way over the top.
It's not like she's one of those nuts who thinks she's going to 'pray' the cancer away.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. Oh My God...
Orange County and C.P.S. Are they still insane? :crazy: And I thought they had changed. I guess they're still raking in the Big Bucks for pulling this kind of shit on people. Fuck Them and the Doctor too! :mad:

No one should ever be forced into Allopathic Medical Treatment if they choose Alternative Medicine!

This story is fucking outrageous!

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
63. No. If people want to let themselves die, they can.
But they are not allowed to deny treatment to their children.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. The Kid Is 17 Years Old. Almost 18.
By law in Orange County a Child has a right to have a say at age 13.

She did not deny him Treatment. Only Allopathic Treatment.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Um...yes, she did deny him treatment.
She denied him access to the only effective treatments available, and instead used snake oil. That ain't legal.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. Black Salve IS Not "Snake Oil"
and it's very effective. Just as there are other Alternative Treatments for Cancer that are effective. They don't all have to be "recognized" by the A.M.A.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Yes, it's so effective that there's not one
peer-reviewed double-blind study showing that it is.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. Because It Works
is why the A.M.A. and Big Pharma are so dead set against it.

Can't have that, then you Doctors would be losing too much money! ;) :sarcasm:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #104
124. anecdotals are not proof.
Links to studies, please.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. I Don't Have Any Links
to Studies because they were probably hunted down by now and shut down by the F.D.A.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. No, because they don't exist.
If the FDA/AMA were so serious about shutting down alternative medicine, why do alt. med. practitioners still exist? If they're just trying to keep people sick, why is there such a focus on preventative medicine?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #130
140. Oh They're Trying
to shut it down and still are, but have yet to succeed because the Public keeps fighting it.

I don't think that there is much focus on Preventative Medicine, and any that there is is just in order to monopolize on it and be the ones making the money, because they know that it works.

There seems to be much more of a focus on Pharmaceutical Drugs though.
Just look at the T.V. commercials. Disgusting.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #140
153. Here is something interesting
Chinese, American doctors meet at MIT for medical exchange


The conference is designed to allow "U.S. and Chinese physicians to compare the pros and cons of their respective health-care delivery systems and begin to consider common solutions to shared problems"



"There's a division in both countries between the prevention people and the clinical treatment people," added Shore, who said the payment system in the United States needs to be reorganized. "Payment here is for service, not for prevention. If managed care had been organized the way it should have been," prevention would have been stressed, said Shore.



"Scientific medicine is justified by the scientific method. Much of what we use in Western hospitals today is not proved by the scientific method. Medicine is still an art; we try different things and what seems to work, we use.

"I would say that neither Chinese nor American medicine is scientific. Both do what they can to relieve suffering and in some cases there is scientific validation," he said. "Science is a very slow process and sick people can't wait."

"Scientific is a goal and an aspiration," said Shore. "We're trying in both countries to add the science."

Read More ...
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #153
162. Wow, Thanks For THAT Post And Link!
I especially like this part:

>>>"Much of what we use in Western hospitals today is not proved by the scientific method."<<<

Now will the other skeptics see it and comment I wonder? :shrug:

Okay you Science Buffs! Lets hear from you! }(
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #162
220. The only thing that matters is empirical evidence of effectiveness
Whether regular or alternative, that can be established by controlled studies. It is not necessary to have a scientific cause and effect explanation, though that certainly aids understanding. People used aspirin for 100 years (and willow bark extract for millenia before that) without knowing that salicylic acid and its derivatives inhibit prostaglandin synthesis.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #220
244. The Problem Is That Studies Cost Money
which these types are usually funded by the Pharmaceutical Companies who push their own Drugs and treating Health problems related to them. Controlled Studies controlled by Big Pharma & Friends!

So in other words you will not get the entire truth from these Studies that you put so much trust in.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #244
249. Anybody's perfectly free to do their own studies.
If somebody's skeptical about a study they're perfectly welcome to reproduce it. That's the nice thing about peer-reviewed scientific publishing.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #244
252. It's not like CAM isn't being studied, or that the results are being suppressed. For instance,
take chiropractic medicine. 50 years ago, that was seen as a scam and a fraud by most doctors. But, like the scientific community medicine is, they studied it anyway, and found that it actually is effective in some cases. Now many doctors will recommend a chiropractor for stubborn back pain.

Universities are still the leading centers of medical research, and they certainly do study CAM. It's just that CAM is usually found to be totally bogus, and the quacks raking in money by fooling the gullible have no interest in telling their suckers that.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #140
195. That's just untrue.
Random speculation and assertions of "coverups" are not evidence.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #195
240. It's not random nor speculation... Errors in health care: a leading cause of death and injury....
http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/medmal/articles....

A report released in late 1999 by the Institute of Medicine for the National Academy of Science, shocked the nation by citing a large body of evidence that indicates that preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the United States. "At least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year as a result of medical errors. Deaths due to preventable adverse events exceed the deaths attributable to motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297) or AIDS (16,516)." (3)

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #240
250. So tell me exactly how errors are equal to:
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 12:57 PM by Basileus Basileon
1. Medicine being ineffective, and
2. The medical community deliberately harming their patients.

Virtually all of those deaths would have occurred if the patient was simply untreated, or was treated with healing crystals and magic wands.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #250
262. We'll never know now because they're already dead from PREVENTABLE MEDICAL ERRORS...
....amazing how easily you suppose to KNOW all these people would have died anyway....almost sounds like you claim to be psychic. :eyes:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #262
270. No. Do you know how I know that?
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:44 PM by Basileus Basileon
I read studies. I know that most surgery patients, if untreated, would eventually die. I know that the highest incidence of preventable errors is in the most complex surgeries for the most endangered patients.

Jeez, it's almost like...it's like if you read things, you know them, and don't just have to guess. What a concept.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. mmm-hmmm.
Wouldn't mention of such action by the FDA have been made by your lone source? Or maybe he's been disappeared...
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #104
136. See, that doesn't make sense.
Alternative medicine practitioners make just as much, and they don't have any oversight.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #97
154. My grandmother made her own black salve.
In the 1940s, we used it for everything. Yep, you had to be careful..it was powerful stuff..but it did the trick on any skin condition. I wish I could still get the stuff.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #84
189. check that law again
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #189
274. I Was In A Situation A Few Years Ago
where that law applied to a situation with my Kid in Orange County.
If you find out that it's changed, let me know!

I wish I could find out who her Attorney is. LOL! }(
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #63
237. Exactly!
E.g. if a Jehovah's Witness insists on refusing a life-saving blood transfusion because of their beliefs, then they cannot be coerced into having one, even if this means their death; but they would not be allowed to refuse to allow their child to have a blood tranfusion. (At least, this would be the law in the UK and I assume in most places.)

In this case, the legal aspects may be a little more ambiguous, because (a) the boy is close to adulthood; and (b) sadly, if he really has stage 4 melanoma, his chances of survival aren't that good even with chemo. However, inflicting a method of treatment that is totally unproven and unregulated *is* a major problem. This is a caustic substance, with the potential to do lots of damage. For that very reason, it may indeed have cured the local skin lesion. An ordinary operation could have done the same, and probably more reliably and with less potential for disfigurement and damage. But in any case, people don't die of localized melanoma; they die from spread to other parts of the body. That's why non-melanoma skin cancer is rarely fatal: it usually spreads only locally, and only rarely to vital organs elsewhere. Melanoma has far more potential to spread, but is totally curable if detected early. Most people with melanoma survive nowadays. Once it spreads, it's far more difficult to treat, and chemo generally does offer the only hope of long-term survival.

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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #237
276. The Doctor's First Reaction
would be to cut the Melanoma out. Cutting always makes Cancer spread.
Then after it spread they would hit him with Chemo.

Black Salve sort of cauterizes the tumor and draws it out of other areas where it spread in the body.

If I had Melanoma, no knives for me!
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #276
305. Cutting *always* makes cancer spread???
Then why do most people treated for melanoma -generally by surgery - survive nowadays?

Latest statistics from Cancer Research UK:

The latest estimates of five-year relative survival for patients diagnosed in 2000-01 is 78% for men and 91% for women. Survival rates are even higher in Scotland, with a 5 year relative rate of 85% for men diagnosed in 1997-2001 and 94% for women.4 Rates are consistently higher for women than men.




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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #305
310. Probably Because
Melanoma is on the surface of the skin (mostly), they cut that taking excess tissue along with it, then they use the Chemo. It's not like other Cancers that are already close to Lymph Nodes and Organs.

Trouble is cutting takes too much excess tissue and even Biopsies can cause Cancer to spread. Using Black Salve attacks the Tumor and is almost like Surgery but doesn't take excess tissue and sort of cauterizes the tissue and seals it outside of where the Tumor was.

Personally, I would not opt for cutting, I would do Black Salve, depending on the location of the Melanoma. But again, everyone should have a choice, as they both work.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #276
319. That's why they cut *around* the cancer.
Not *through* the cancer. You might want to learn, oh, say, the first fucking thing about cancer treatment before you spout off about it.
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. the local skin lesion of melanoma is not what causes death, it is the metastases
this child was not checked for the presence of positive lymph nodes, brain, liver, or lung lesions. If any are present, he is going to die.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. It's not clear to me what he was checked for. He did have follow-up blood tests
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 04:41 PM by pnwmom
that were normal.

But if the article is correct and he had advanced stage 4 melanoma, wasn't he very likely to die even with everything that conventional medicine could throw at him?

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. According to the same woman who makes and sells magic wands.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Wow you're twisting that one aren't you?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Mmm, no.
This is a ridiculously biased article, and the only evidence that the kid is cancer free is the own mother's claims.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
160. You are in direct violation of the DU Rules.
See #4 in particular.

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #160
200. One, no,
and two, you are: you are not permitted to post repeated reminders about another person's mistakes.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #160
206. your record is broken and you need a new one.
and your sad attempt to stifle dissenting positions by grim warnings about rule breaking are quite comical.
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. I am not sure whether they really diagnosed him as stage 4...that diagnosis would
have followed the surgical removal of the mole, checking for the sentinel lymph node, doing CAT scans of brain and body....but if he really is stage 4, he has less than five per cent chance of being alive in 5 years. The mother locally "burning" off a mole with that stuff isn't doing anything to cure anything because it means it has spread through his body. BTW, doctors do a biological treatment for melanoma that this family might have been more comfortable with that doesn't involve traditional chemo.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
82. That's basically what I thought.
I doubt that the naturopath that she worked with implied that burning off the mole was enough. That was the point of the rest of the treatment -- to help the whole body to heal.

Obviously, we're not getting the entire story here. Still, if he really was stage 4 melanoma, I think that he and his mother should have been allowed to forgo conventional treatment. If he were living in my state (WA), he could have been seen by a licensed naturopath.

And the way she was treated in prison was awful -- all for being a desperate mother trying to save her son.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
91. Blood tests don't show mets
One would need a CAT or PET scan and even those would only detect tumors 1 cm or larger.

Lymph node biopsy would be the most accurate way to check.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
159. That's true.
A PET scan should make it clear whether he's okay or not. If it lights up at all, then they can start talking treatment plans. If it doesn't, then he's cured.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bizarre
More than bizarre. The kid is seventeen and doesn't want an operation. End of story. What in the heck does the court think it can do about that?

Way, way worse than big brother. This is completely outrageous.

Gag order??? WHY? THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

We sure have some nutso people in authority positions.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
128. Yeah, "Gag Order".
That makes the County look even more suspicious. What are they afraid of?
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. Why did she take the kid to the doctor for a mole, then decide to treat cancer at home?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
56. I doubt that she was expecting the diagnosis of advanced stage 4 melanoma
and everything that that would entail.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. They should've used Liquid Silver instead.
:sarcasm:

Gah.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Moral Of Story:
If you have Kids, do not live in Orange County California, lest you get
caught up in the County Meat Grinder. Run and run far!!!
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. K & R....
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. It's shocking how many DUers fall for pseudo-scientific bullshit...
I assumed there would be more critical thinking around here, but some of the woo woo topics here lately have shattered that myth.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Hi Beezle, you nominated yourself God today didnt you?
So grateful to know you are the one we need to come to for any and all differentiating in what is defined as "woo-woo" and and/or what is legitimate.

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. It isn't a matter of opinion, Shance.
Medicine with a clinically-tested evidence base is legitimate. Crystal/holistic therapy generally does not perform better than sham therapy in double-blind tests.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Your assuming that all alternative/holistic medicine is "crystals"?
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 05:20 PM by shance
Not at all.

Try acupuncture, hypnotherapy, various forms of herbal therapies and heck yoga for that matter.

Do you know how many medicines come from herbs and nature?

All of them essentially come from somewhere in the good ole forest.

Emotionally charged labels like 'legitimate' and 'alternative', 'western' 'eastern' medicine are all terms, however intentionally and/or unintentionally are used to divide our thinking into categories of "good" and/or "Bad", "right" or "wrong".

I think we have to stop limiting our ability in how we perceive information. Its so limiting to us.

There are no real pat answers - no such clean cut categories as "good" or "bad" I don't think.

Some treatments are just more effective than others.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. All the same stuff.
All site magical healing properties which are, of course, undetectable by peer-reviewed science.

"Do you know how many medicines come from herbs and nature?"

A few of them. Of course, those are tested with peer-reviewed science, then altered to improve efficacy and remove harmful side effects.

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Huskerchub Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #73
94. tested and peer-reviewd science my ass...
You mean drugs on the market that are "safe" and "pose no danger"?

"Ritalin side effects are also associated with other serious health issues. In one small study of 12 chidren, scientists from the University of Texas and the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center found a link between Ritalin and increased risk of cancer. The 12 children in the study taking Ritalin all experienced a significant increase in their level of chromosome abnormalities, occurrences which are associated with increased cancer risk and other adverse health effects. "

"Advil side effects may include Stevens Johnson Syndrome or SJS and Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis or TEN.

Stevens Johnson Syndrome (SJS) and Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis (TEN) are two forms of the skin disease that can cause rash, skin peeling, and sores on the mucous membranes. Stevens Johnson Syndrome is an immune-complexmediated hypersensitivity disorder that may be caused by many drugs, viral infections, and malignancies. "
Both sites taken from http://www.medication-side-effects.info/medications.htm...

Good luck blind followers.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. See, that actually kind of helps our point.
Even with the harshest testing, you can find that 30 years down the road any medical treatment can lead to all sorts of things in maybe 0.2% of the population that takes it. That implies we need more testing, not to throw the concept of testing out the window and start rubbing magic wands over us.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #94
108. Yeah, Notice Everything Is "A Disease" Or A "Syndrom" Now
so they can Patent Pills and push them on us to $$$$$make money$$$$$.
Tested to see which will make the most money on the gullible Public. :rofl:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #108
133. And Kevin Trudeau hasn't made a dime from his books.
And alternative medicine practitioners don't make a dime either.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #133
141. So Do You See Any
of the Alternative Practitioners trying to shut down the Allopaths? That ought to tell you something.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. That's because M.D.s aren't dangerous
in nearly the same way. When CAM practitioners pretend their services are at all as effective as actual medicine, that is misleading and dangerous to the patient. Most MDs don't mind CAM, so long as it's honest.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #145
168. I've Been Misdiagnosed In An E.R. TWICE
once when I was bleeding internally and could have died. Now that was dangerous!

My point is that regular M.D.'s make mistakes, others have been known to misdiagnose. And also their Treatments focus on the symptom rather than the cure. Many people have died from Prescribed Drugs as well. Hell, look at the side effects and disclaimers! :scared:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #168
194. Yes, MDs do make mistakes. All doctors do. But there's a word of difference between that
and your prescribed therapies being worthless. Also, that "symptom rather than cure" business is outright backwards.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #145
236. "That's because M.D.s aren't dangerous...." The National Academy of Science disagrees with you....
http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/medmal/articles....

Errors in health care: a leading cause of death and injury.

A report released in late 1999 by the Institute of Medicine for the National Academy of Science, shocked the nation by citing a large body of evidence that indicates that preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the United States. "At least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year as a result of medical errors. Deaths due to preventable adverse events exceed the deaths attributable to motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297) or AIDS (16,516)." (3)

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #236
253. "in nearly the same way." Please try reading.
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:04 PM by Basileus Basileon
Errors made during lifesaving operations are a problem, but the percentages of survival are far, far greater than they are with a purely alternative-medicine approach.

Medicine saves millions of lives per year, and occasionally goes wrong. Quackery does not save lives at all, and causes injuries at a higher rate.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #133
320. and how much do they make in comparison to the pharmaceutical industry?
or the health industry? hmmmmm.....
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #108
243. Then how come countries with a National Health Service also regulate medicine...
and discourage unproven alternative 'cures', especially for serious conditions?

In Europe, governments have an interest in spending as little as possible on medical treatment. Yet people are still encouraged to treat cancer and other serious diseases by conventional medicine.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #94
116. Viagra and other erection
enhancing drugs, yeah, boy, they're safe. Safe if you don't mind going blind or deaf, that is. Anybody who watches TV sees a slew of dangerous pharmaceutical shit being hawked every night by Big Pharma. Anybody who seriously thinks that because something comes from a conventional doctor it's automatically safe is seriously fooling themselves.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
119. Of please......
like pharmaceuticals have no harmful side effects?

I used to work in a pharmacy and was always amazed when I looked up drugs to see how many drugs how little better than placebo effects.

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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #73
151. Are you a doctor..
... or just another douchebag with an opinion? Because you are completely and totally full of shit.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #151
233. LOL
I'm not the one who thinks they can cure cancer with magical joo-joo powers.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
161. You are in direct violation of the DU Rules.
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #161
227. I'm honestly wondering
how many of your posts consist only of that. It doesn't add anything to the discussion at hand, it doesn't change the behavior you're pointing at. Alert if you want, but why are you posting without participating?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #161
232. Apparently the mods don't think so.
Deal with it.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. Yep. I've been to a number of CAM conferences.
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 05:22 PM by Basileus Basileon
Acupuncture works, but sham acupuncture works well too. Hypotherapy works for some psychiatric cases, but is generally unproven. Herbal therapies are actually found harmful as often as they are helpful.

There's no reason to dismiss complementary and alternative methods out of hand. Chiropractors were once thought to be complete frauds; now they're accepted by a great portion of the medical community. Acupuncture may only work on the placebo effect, but for treatment of some forms of pain, why not?

However, when methods are proven ineffective in lab settings, they should not be used. And when people choose to deny children adequate healthcare in favor of bogus methods...well, that's wrong.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. No, some critical thinking skills will let you differentiate what is woo woo for yourself.
This is what I love/hate about followers of pseudo-science. You believe absolute bullshit, and then take an arrogant stance against anyone that challenges you to critically think.

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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #83
234. Antidepressant barely better than placebo
Study: Antidepressant barely better than placebo

By Marilyn Elias, USA TODAY

Antidepressants work only slightly better than dummy pills, and the Food and Drug Administration has not informed physicians of how little benefit most of these drugs offer, suggests a study to be released next week.

Through a Freedom of Information Act request, two psychologists obtained 47 studies used by the FDA for approval of the six antidepressants prescribed most widely between 1987-99.




More than half of the 47 studies found that patients on antidepressants improved no more than those on placebos, Kirsch says.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/drugs/2002-07-08-an...

There's more.....lots more drugs that have little if any more effect than placebos but I guess that isn't considered a scam.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
111. Watch this video.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
89. Especially tragic when you see people die
because they believe in pseudo-science and quack "cures". I know of a woman now dying from breast cancer who refused conventional treatment for early stage disease. She spent all of her family's savings to pursue "homeopathic" remedies. Her tumor is now the size of a grapefruit and her family's savings are depleted.

She will die now, when she could have survived. Really sad.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yeah that is awful... This is an example of why I cut pseudo-science no slack at all.
Homeopathic cures are the worst. Many good people die because they're conned by bastards like Kevin Trudeau and his ilk...
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. Its tragic
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 06:13 PM by OzarkDem
Most people who pursue these *cures* often have psychological problems which prevent them from making rational, informed decisions. Its one thing to destroy themselves, quite another to bankrupt their family, too.

One of the myths about alternative medicine is that it isn't expensive. Not true, its very expensive and the people selling these miracle therapies make billions from bilking emotionally vulnerable people.

They piss and moan about not getting funding for their research - also not true. There are federal funds for research available for alternative therapies - but they make the researchers follow the same rigorous scientific standards and peer review. Most don't want that level of scrutiny and instead ask to rewrite the rules for evaluating research results.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. Yeah, and nobody who has
had treatment by a conventional doctor has ever died of breast cancer.
:eyes:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #117
132. It's a matter of odds.
You are more likely to die by not treating cancer than you are by treating cancer.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #117
142. Most survive
can't say the same about quack cures. They all die.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
123. You ain't kiddin'. Why didn't the mom just use "The Secret"
And kill the cancer with "positive, life affirming" thoughts? :eyes:
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
235. It's shocking how so many people
fall for the anti-depressant scam. They have little value beyond a placebo effect.

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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. The cancer is in *remission.*
Without proper medical attention, her child is in *danger.* This anti-science horsecrap has got to stop.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
45. 4 paragraphs?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. Is there any evidence that the child actually had melanoma in the first place?
The tone of the article is very biased and short on details. It doesn't look like the boy had a certain diagnosis of melanoma in the first place. If that's true, then it's not surprising that he doesn't have it now.

Melanoma in children is very rare.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. That very well could be true. Many skin conditions come and go.
It very well may not have been a melanoma.

Go back and read the article

There was a diagnosis made.

However I think the question is and what is disturbing to me, is this rather fascist blind obedience to "organized medicine".

While it has many wonderful remedies, it also has a vested interest in making money off of the backs of peoples illnesses.

Alternative methods of treatment are more important in my opinion, at this point and speaking as a child of a physician, because they allow us the freedom not to be enslaved to a prejudiced system that only allows the best treatments for those who can afford it.

That's not good medical practice that's a lottery, where many who don't deserve to be cast aside and will lose.

Better to strengthen and empower ourselves as our own healers than be subject and vulnerable to the whims of a indifferent medical system.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
85. Good Post shance!
:applause:
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
92. Usually the first place to look
when investigating quack *cures*. Those who claim to have been *cured* by alternative medicine, praying, etc. are often unable to prove they were diagnosed with cancer in the first place.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
58. Good.
Adults are allowed to sentence themselves to death. Adults are not allowed to sentence their children to death.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
102. People Have Died From Chemotherapy.
Chemotherapy can be a Death Sentence.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. So can cancer. Sheesh--what a great argument.
Um, NOT.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Sure,
so why not pick the Treatment with the best odds? :shrug:
Hey! :think: Now there's an idea! :sarcasm:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
125. treatment with the best odds - good idea.
As a 28-year cancer survivor, I'd go with the chemo and radiation again.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #125
137. I'm Glad It Worked For You,
but unfortunately it doesn't work for everybody.
It all depends on what type of Cancer you have, how far along etc.

The important point is everyone being allowed choice of Treatment.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #137
146. no, it doesn't work for everybody.
But if what you're championing works for anybody, then where is the science? Where is the proof?

The important point is everyone being allowed choice of Treatment.

Adults can choose anything they like for themselves. Hell, treat your own cancer with apricots and rhinoceros toenails for all I care, and best of luck with that. But minor children are a different story.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #102
164. It's how it works--makes it hard for the cancer cells to keep on living.
In order to do that, the chemo makes it hard for all the cells to keep on living. Sometimes, the normal ones just can't take it anymore and start dying.

The reality is, though, the cancer killed the person, since he or she wouldn't have had the chemo if s/he hadn't had the cancer. I lost a very good friend during her chemo treatments, and I know that pain of loss. I was angry at the chemo, too, but the reality is, her cancer was a bad one (non-small cell lung cancer) and pretty advanced. Her odds were bad from the get-go.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #164
174. part of me empathizes with those who want another way of beating cancer.
Chemo sucks; there's no way to sugar-coat that. I'm all for progressive changes in treatment regimens, too. When I was diagnosed in 1980, they hit me with the equivalent of a tank. A-COPP (adriamycin, cytoxan, oncovin, procarbazine, prednizone) is no longer used for Hodgkin's as far as I know. Fine by me, as long as what they're doing works.

At the end of the day, though, I'm still here, some decades after I'd have checked out if my parents hadn't had the wisdom and courage (astounding to me now that I'm a parent - I can't even imagine) to allow the treatment that I needed.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #102
184. You are right Mega. Many times over.
That is not discussed as much of course because often times it is confused with the original cancer.

Chemo wipes out an immune system. The system is already compromised by the cancer.

Often the body is not strong enough to fight both.

Chemo on the other hand has done some wonderful things.

There is no pat answer.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
60. Well, he's lucky it got rid of the cancer locally
He needs to be checked for metastasis and monitored carefully.

But from seeing that black salve link, I would say that she would have gotten the same effect by pouring phenol on the mole. Yeeesh.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
71. Some reputable, solid source you got there. This whole story is pure horseshit.
Redstone
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #71
87. Oh Sure.
Just because you say makes it so. :sarcasm:

Sheesh. :eyes:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. How ironic.
"Just because I say it makes it so" would be the foundation of quackeries. That's why we have controlled double-blind tests--to determine if things actually work.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
109. So, you got somethig that shows it's NOT horseshit? The OP puts up an unsubstantiated,
unverifiable account from a source to ridiculous as to be laughable, and **I'm** the one expecting people to take me at my word?

You got yourself some odd standards, right there. Or, it could just be that you don't like me, which is fine with me.

Redstone
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. You Won't Find Anything Because
this is a C.P.S. Case involving a Minor. They keep it confidential. That's the law.

And I don't have a problem with you. :)
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #114
166. Um, may I point out that the OP made it NOT confidential?
Christ, I give up.

Redstone
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #166
173. It's From A Blog, Not A News Source,
probably because someone from the Blog knows them. It's not in the News most likely because the D.A. won't allow it. News sources get a lot of their News from Police Reports, D.A. etc. so they're the ones that pull the strings.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #71
100. Google search turns up NOTHING--except, of course, the cite in the OP.
Apparently the OP and allies think DUers aren't all that bright.


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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
115. You Won't Find Anything Because
this is a C.P.S. Case involving a Minor. They keep it confidential. That's the law.

Now who's not bright? :)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. Then how did the source in the OP get it?
Nice try, though.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #120
144. Did You Even Look At The Link?
It's a Blog.

Maybe you should stay your natural color. :sarcasm:

Kidding LOL! Don't worry, I bleach too. ;)
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
147. Nah, if I want to pour battery acid on my kid 'cause the guy on the corner said it would cure his
diabetes, that's MY business, FASCIST!

:sarcasm:
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #147
163. And you wouldn't need any "reputable source" to back up your claims, while
screaming all over the Internet that The Evil Medical Establishment tried to CRUCIFY you for wanting you to do that, WOULD YOU?

After all, it's YOUR CHILD, and what, battery acid to cure diabetes? What RIGHT does anybody have to deny your opinion that such a treatment would work?

What if your child had a HOLE in his or her heart? Why SHOULD the EVIL MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT not let you try to heal that with a spoonful of kerosene each day?

(No sarcasm smilie needed here, nor did you need one in your post. I understood you perfectly.)

Redston
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #163
259. I heard you can pound out cancer with a mallet
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:16 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
Geez...

Apparently kids are nothing more than property. Every parent accused of child abuse "Well, I only did it to ward off the AIDs. It worked, he doesn't have AIDs!"
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #71
182. Redstone, why are you consistently rude on threads you don't like?
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 09:27 PM by shance
Do you have an inability to tolerate anyone who dares to say something you don't like?

Sometimes you have amazing threads and wonderful things to say, and yet then you assault someone who dares to post something you cannot accept?

There are things you say I don't accept or in any way agree with, but I don't jump on your thread and call it "horseshit".

It's really unecessary.



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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
101. it sounds like she was badly treated but i can kind of see why
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 06:24 PM by pitohui
if my choice is to have a melanoma removed by a trained surgeon or to have it removed using a burning agent like black salve, in the hands of an amateur, then i don't think you have the right to experiment on your child and you should allow the trained surgeon to do his job

removed in time by any method, sure, of course, the melanoma is cured, it's among the most curable of cancers

but our laws are such that practicing medicine without a license, even on your own child, is frowned on

i don't see how black salve is inherently any more natural than surgery, but maybe i'm missing something

her son will be fine, and spaghetti and meatballs is not going to hurt him, if the melanoma is gone, and he has passed the biopsy, it's over

i hope her legal problems work out also, but i do think she needs to be realistic and accept that putting a caustic material on your son's skin, instead of allowing a doctor to do his job, could be fairly considered child abuse if she doesn't have a medical license

on edit -- obviously i missed the part where it's stage 4 melanoma, if it is already metastized, yeah, it ain't over, nor is there much hope -- just a sad sad story all around
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #101
170. I hope that other DUers take the time to read your posts as thoroughly as I do;
sometimes your writing style can discourage people from reading your posts closely (not criticizing, just observing as a friend), but I'll tell you this: Once I got used to your writing style a while back, I learned that I should read every one one of your posts, and PAY ATTENTION to what you are saying, because 99% of the time, there is wisdom in your posts.

Don't change. Others who learn, as I did, to really READ your posts will benefit from them.

You're one of the DUers whose posts I most enjoy reading, if that means anything to you. You've always been an enigma, but believe me, at the same time you're a treasure.

Redstone
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. well thank you for your kind words
i ramble sometimes!
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
107. How about a non-blog source for this?
It doesn't ring true, for many reasons
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. Good Luck Finding That One.
When C.P.S. has a Case involving a "Child", in this case, a 17 year old, it is to be kept confidential.

Why do you think that this wouldn't be true?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #110
121. You've mentioned this thrice--but the kid's name is in the OP,
And if it's confidential, how'd this news get to the source quoted in the OP?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #121
148. Well Usually
in a Blog or Discussion Forum it could be because somebody knows them and they want to get the word of the injustice out.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #148
167. Or it could be a fabrication.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #167
226. Oh, noooo. That NEVER happens on the internets.
:sarcasm:
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #226
245. Why Wouldn't It Be?
You believe everything the Medical Establishment controlled by Big Pharma feeds to you, don't you? :crazy:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #245
260. No, but I have survived a coma, a lifetime of insulin dependence, and a stroke.
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:14 PM by blondeatlast
I also have a dead left quarter ventricle--and I would be willing to bet I'm healthier than you are.

I bike, hike, swim, and play tennis.



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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #260
286. Healthier than me?
If you are insulin dependant and everything else you say, I doubt it, not that it really matters. Sounds like I look and am completely different than the way you picture me LOL! I bike and hike, walk, but the Ocean is now a little too dirty to swim in, and I don't like tennis.

If you knew anything about Natural Health Alternatives as opposed to depending on Allopathic Doctors I bet you would never have half of the Health Problems you mention. :)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #286
287. I'm still here, that's all I know. and I should not be. Really.
I'll stick with the insulin over the black mushroom and continue to take my anti-clotting meds, thanks anyhow.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #287
289. That's Good It's Working
and I won't force any certain methods on you, at least you have a choice!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #289
293. With all due respect--I'm glad my parents put me on insulin.
Even when I was a child, they were encouraged to use an alternative remedy. They roundly rejected it.

That was 30 years ago when I had to pee in a cup to test my glucose.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
118. For Chad's Sake
I hope that he turns 18 real soon and tells them to Fuck Off!!!
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
126. This write up is so heavy handed, I find it very hard to believe
maybe it is completely true, but it reads like someone trying too way hard to make themselves look like the only sane person in a crazy world. Everybody, including the police, the judge, the doctor and the Vice Principle at the school, are against this woman only because she found a miracle cure for her son that the FDA banned because it worked?

I can't swallow this whole. It's way too thick.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
138. Blah, blah, kill yourself with stupid..
but you are required to treat your kids within the realm of modern medicine. Wife works in medical field, sees Jehovah's witness folks with half dead kids refusing treatment.

So they have to take emergency custody through DSS. End of story.

Once you hit 18 you have every right to experiment on yourself, until then you cant use you children in this manner.

This article is just a tad dramatic. Sounds like some CPS drama pushed on all of us.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #138
180. Yes. Just EXACTLY what you said. Too bad the "believers" won't listen.
Redstone
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
143. quackery or not, I support the parents
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #143
149. Here Here!
:applause:
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
171. Did you see those pics of the "black salve" victims?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. I Have Personally Used Black Salve Twice
once on my face, which has healed up perfectly with no scar, and on my chest which is still healing. You have to know what you're doing though. Looked like she didn't know enough before she used it.
Okay, flame away..... :hide:
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. I won't flame you.
My own mother uses Liquid Silver extensively. Some people have gotten a bluish tint to their skin after prolonged use, but she has dodged that bullet thus far.

I wouldn't use either item. Sorry.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #178
247. Colliodal Silver And Black Salve
are two different things that work in different ways.

Its okay if you don't want to use either. As long as we all have personal choice (and choice for our own children) of types of Health Treatment that's all that matters!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #171
187. Yes, it looks scary. But chemo and radiation aren't pretty either.
The parent is responsible to make the childs decision, and it is nobody else's decision
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #187
190. I know. My own dad has reached his lifetime dosage of radiation.
They dosed him very heavily 45 years ago when he has stomach cancer. Cancer treatment is a bit more refined nowadays. Luckily, he's survived all three bouts with various cancers.

Anyway, about your "parent is responsible" thing. Authorities have stepped in before when parents have neglected to get their children appropriate medical care.

I'm guessing we differ on what "appropriate" medical care is. :)
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #143
183. Sure, let the parents kill their kids because they think they know better than doctors do.
Yeah, right. They're the PARENTS; they know best, whether they've gone through medical school or not.

Redstone
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #183
188. If you want to make decisions for children, have your own. Otherwise back off.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #188
191. is the parental right to make decisions for the child absolute?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. not under the laws in california
if he was "on his own" and under 18 there would be nothing they could do to him....
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #191
215. No. Never. It is never legal for you to shoot your child with a rifle for sport.
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:40 AM by Basileus Basileon
It is never legal for you to withhold food and water from your child for days on end.
Similarly, it is also not legal for you to withhold life-saving medicine from your child.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #215
248. I Think She Already Gave Him Life Saving Medicine.
If his Cancer is gone or in remission then they need to all just STFU. It's all about control, and money. There is a lot of corruption in Orange County. I thought it was cleaned up, but apparently not.

I sincerely hope she has a good Lawyer.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #248
254. She didn't. Despite what quacks tell you, medicine is not a matter of opinion. nt
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #254
288. The Quacks That I've Talked To Are Medical Doctors.
I've never talked to any Naturopaths if that is what you're referring to.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #288
316. Which is the logical equivalent of
"The bachelors I've talked to were all happily married at the time."
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #188
216. Sure. You don't think the state will mind
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:44 AM by Basileus Basileon
if I decide not to feed my future child anything, right? Food is toxic and sold by evil corporations. There can be impurities in food, and occasionally children choke to death on food. In order to prevent that from happening, I'll rub healing crystals on his stomach instead.

Oh, wait, no, that's child abuse and will get my child taken away from me. Hey, I bet there's a parallel there. Let's explore that.

NOT FEED = ALLOW TO DIE = ABUSE AND ILLEGAL.
NOT TREAT CANCER = ALLOW TO DIE = ABUSE AND ILLEGAL.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #216
218. NOT FEED = ALLOW TO DIE
Have you ever had any contact with hospice? Or know of anyone who used hospice?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #218
255. Of course. Is this related?
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:14 PM by Basileus Basileon
I mean, you're not seriously going to say that hospice care for terminally-ill patients is at all similar to withholding treatment for dangerous diseases, right? Because that would be stupid.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #216
246. What was your stance on Schiavo?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #246
257. That, as she was an adult, a vegetable and no living will was present,
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 01:09 PM by Basileus Basileon
the power to make that decision shifted to her husband. Surely you don't think that Schiavo sets a precedent that any parent may starve their child.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #257
277. I find it interesting that you think a husband should have more control over his wife's medical...
treatment than a parent should have over his/her child's treatment.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #277
281. If the child were to become a vegetable physically unable to be recovered,
the parents would then have the option to allow the body to die as well.

That does not mean the parents have the option to starve a healthy child to death, and that does not mean the parents have the option to deny lifesaving medical treatment to their child.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #246
261. I think the courts were right with Schiavo.
Just like they're right here.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #216
294. And Fluoride (Rat Poison) In Your Water
and Fluoride tablets to your Kids!

Drink up! Trust the System! :sarcasm:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #294
313. Funny how you're afraid of everything
with an evidence base, and yet blindly trust everything with no evidence for it whatsoever.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #188
222. Parents don't have the right to endanger the lives of their children.
Children do have SOME rights of their own.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #222
282. When treating cancer, there is no way that doesn't endanger the kid in some way
Chemo can kill, just as holistic stuff (I'm not a big fan of it, btw), and doing nothing can kill.

A decision must be made, and I don't see why the parents shouldn't be the ones making the decision. Personally, I'd go with modern medicine.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #282
296. holistic stuff doesn't treat cancer.
Chemo is a treatment. Not providing treatment is gross negligence.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #282
317. "Holistic stuff" doesn't treat cancer. Deliberately choosing not to treat cancer
is endangering a child. This shouldn't be too hard.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #188
321. It happens that I do indeed have children of my own. Two of them. So now,
your point ends up being exactly what?

Redstone
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
158. I think the fucking melanoma diagnosis has become a cutting racket,
but no one is asking me. LOL
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #158
177. Excuse me. My mother died from Melanoma. At the age of 56. You want to tell me that
Melanoma is a racket?

Be my guest, and either provide me some proof that it IS a racket, or go fuck yourself.

Redstone
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #177
208. Just saw your post. I was referring to the racket I explained in my pm back to you.
Racket of misdiagnosis. I am so sorry about your Mom.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #177
209. It should have read misdiagnosis. Hasty me.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
181. Bunch of anti-science woo woo crap
not worth my time...
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
185. there`s a lot of bullshit in this article
if one disobeys the laws dealing with this issue ,one should expect to be charged..
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
186. This "cure", does it involve bleeding with leeches?
Or balancing out humors??

:eyes:
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #186
192. Let's go with "corrosive compounds that eat away parts of your face"
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cance...

Someone else posted that link way up in this thread. Has some interesting pictures.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
196. Some people would consider her "not a real progressive"
because she rejected science.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #196
201. I certainly wouldn't.
Insisting on 17th-century medical thought is about as far from "progressive" as you can get.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
197. "Black Salve" can eliminate superficial cancers, but it can also be dangerous
The photo in the URL is really gruesome

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cance...

Many salves, pastes, poultices, and plasters have been applied directly to tumors with the hope of burning them away. Zinc oxide, bloodroot, and several other herbs are common ingredients. Some marketers claim that corrosive agents (sometimes called "black salves") can "draw out" the cancer. In recent years, scientists have found chemicals that can destroy certain superficial skin cancers. Except for these, however, corrosive agents are worthless against cancer and cannot be legally marketed for that purpose in the United States.

Corrosive salves are often referred to as "escharotics" because they produce a thick, dry scab called an "eschar" on the skin. Their use to treat cancer dates back hundreds of years, perhaps even to ancient times. Their use was fairly common during the 18th and 19th centuries. If a tumor is confined to the superficial layers of the skin, it would be possible to burn it off with a corrosive salve or paste. Unfortunately, products capable of accomplishing this can also burn the surrounding normal tissue and result in unnecessary scarring. For superficial cancersfor which the cure rate with standard treatment is nearly 100%it makes much more sense to use standard methods that can destroy the cancer with little or no damage to the nearby tissues. Some salves are also promoted for treating herpes, venereal, diseases, diabetes, and lupus.

The danger of using these products is illustrated by the experience of Ruth Conrad, an Idaho woman who consulted one of the state's many unlicensed naturopaths in 1984. While seeking treatment for a sore shoulder, she also complained of a bump on her nose. The naturopath stated that it was cancer and gave her a black herbal salve to apply directly. Within a few days, her face became very painful and she developed red streaks that ran down her cheeks. Her anxious phone call to the naturopath brought the explanation that the presence of the lines was a good sign because they "resemble a crab, and cancer is a crab." He also advised her to apply more of the black salve. Within a week, a large part of her face, including her nose, sloughed off. It took 3 years and 17 plastic surgery operations to reconstruct her face. During a deposition, the naturopath stated that he had obtained the salve from a woman in Mexico and that he didn't know who had manufactured it. The picture shows the extent of the injured area.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #197
204. HOLY SHIT - Dig that quackwatch link (& the photos) before you use that Black Salve Shit!
"It can be dangerous" and "You need to know what youre doing"??????
NO SHIT! Try muriatic acid or just a plain old chain saw next time!
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #197
214. That is absolutely horrifying. Would any of the quacksquad here like to comment?
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #214
241. Oh the humanity...and the irony....
http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/medmal/articles....

Errors in health care: a leading cause of death and injury.

A report released in late 1999 by the Institute of Medicine for the National Academy of Science, shocked the nation by citing a large body of evidence that indicates that preventable medical errors are a leading cause of death in the United States. "At least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year as a result of medical errors. Deaths due to preventable adverse events exceed the deaths attributable to motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297) or AIDS (16,516)." (3)

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #241
258. There is a great gulf between
"errors made in the application of life-saving medicine" and "toxic sludge that will burn your face off even if appropriately applied."
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #258
279. Considering that the modern way to treat cancer is to pump the body full of poison and radiation ...
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 02:19 PM by JVS
along with chopping bits of the body off and hoping that the cancer dies before the entire body does, I don't think the gulf here is so great as you paint it. Both treatments essentially try to do the same thing.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #279
283. The difference, of course,
is that the actual medicine possesses an evidence base and is extremely controlled. Caustic chemicals have neither going for them.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #283
284. Which is an immense source of comfort to the patient as he weakens and dies
:eyes:
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #284
285. The favorite argument of quacks.
"Medicine is not 100% effective in all cases--so why not use something that's not effective at all?"
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #241
311. Lol!
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
199. I pretty much tuned this out when I got to the point about.......
.......how this doctor is a "general practitioner", which she isn't (she's a specialist in Family Practice) and isn't "qualified to do cancer diagnosis", which practically any MD would be qualified to do in many, if not most, cases, and almost certainly in the case of a malignant skin lesion. When people go so far to in overstating their case in an attempt to make it more credible, they lose all credibility with me.

And then there's the part about all that voodoo medicine............
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #199
202. Back in the Middle Ages people used to believe that
disease was caused by "bad smells". Long way we've come, no?
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. ....
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 10:24 PM by Morereason
....
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
207. She did it with the help of fairies and pixie dust.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
210. lol @ t his thread
:rofl:

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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
211. Who could of thought that parents would have so little to say in
the lives of their children's health care. Why doesn't CPSS find homes for homeless children?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #211
212. Parents can make virtually any decision they like in their children's health care.
The one decision they are never allowed to make is to deny treatment to their child for a life-threatening illness. No matter how good the intentions, that is rightly considered abuse.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #211
221. So parents who want to PRAY to heal their child rather than administer life saving drugs
are okay in your book?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #211
251. Because C.P.S. In Orange County
is corrupt. They make money by putting kids through the system.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #251
256. Wow. Most CPS agencies are woefully overworked and understaffed, virtually to a state.
I would REALLY appreciate some good resource to back that claim up.

After all, they aren't a for-profit entity.

This is one I hope you will back up with some facts.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #256
297. Most C.P.S. Agencies Are,
true, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I have personal experience and inside investigation (not by me) of numerous others I can't tell you about. Sorry. Besides it would be
the size of a Novel.

Not every truth is going to be in your face on the internet. Just as the same with Health Treatments.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #297
312. Oh, that's an amusing response.
"Facts? Backup? I don't need 'em."
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
228. Wouldn't it be a comparatively simple matter
to send this kid for rediagnosis a few other places? There are relatively standard tests for cancer, and it would put an end to the he-said, she-said. But I suspect that's not the aim of all of this.
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SyntaxError Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #228
271. That would be the logical thing to do, therefor not possible.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
238. Why is it no one ever considers misdiagnosis?
Doctors make mistakes. They can misdiagnose things. Mix up lab results and a host of other things can go wrong. The mother should have gone to get a second opinion from a qualified oncologist. But instead she went to a path that if her child actually had cancer placed his life in danger.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #238
263. Because The Majority of People On The Thread
are a bunch of Sheep. The blind leading the blind. Tell them anything or show them anything from what they think is a "Reputable Source" and they will bite it, hook line and sinker.
Nevermind that that "Reputable Source" is lying to them, that could never happen, could it?

Then they crack Dumbass jokes about a subject they simply don't understand. :eyes:

I've been misdiagnosed by Doctors and they have made other mistakes, so I don't trust all of them.
Oh and not to mention that they treat you like shit if you do not have money.

But I have to totally disagree that she put her Child in danger. For one thing, the Kid is 17 and old enough to make his own Health decisions, and he chose Alternative Treatment. For another, the Cancer is gone or in remission so then C.P.S. should drop it.

Allopathic Medical Treatment is not the only Treatment out there and very often it harms more than helps. Everyone should have a choice.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #263
272. Ironic you're willing to suggest that the entire evidence base is "lying,"
while you're pinning your argument on an unsubstantiated blog post.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #272
291. You would just love post 245.
Wherein I, a lifetime insulin dependent with a dead left quarter ventricle, am urged to reject "allopathic" treatment in favor of naturopathic "remedies."

Not just no way, but no fucking way. I'll stick with insulin and Plavix. It ain't perfect, but I am here.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #291
300. Similar conversation last night with my sister in law
I am an avid skeptic. She is an avid practitioner of Chi (being born in China will do that). We were talking about my Diabetes and severe foot pain from Neuropathy and she piped up "Oh Chi can cure that". I explained that the Diabetes had damaged my nerves and stripped the insulation off and killed some of the nerves as well. She quite confidently insisted that Chi could heal dead nerves. A long discussion ensued.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #300
307. Aargh. All I tell people when it comes to such things isthat "I hope you never
walk in my shoes" while secretly wishing that they could for just a week.

My neuropathy is pretty tame but I've had lots of other complix. It all sucks but it beats the alternative big time.

If adults choose to go the alternative route, I'm happy for them. But children should get medical treatment and if it takes the state to step in, I'm fine with that. I would have wanted that if my parents refused standard medical treatment for my IDD (not that my engineer-trained father would have ever considered anything else).
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #272
298. What's Unsubstanciated About Black Salve Treatment?
I've used it before, it's substantiated by me. Personal experience for me will stand out over any evidence you are referring to. This is probably the same reason why this Woman allowed her son to use it. I think we should all take charge and become responsible for our own personal Health.

You base all of your belief on everything that is in writing, yet you dismiss a Blog as being true. BTW the Blog's Name is "Angry Scientist" how ironic! Did you even take time to read it? Click on the "about" tab. The guy is a Scientist. Will that get you to listen?

Can you prove that Alternative Treatments do not work? All of them?
It's unsubstantiated that they do not work. Until you can absolutely prove that they (singularly)
do not work, than I don't think you have a leg to stand on in completely dismissing them.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #298
318. Frankly, I don't care if
that man is Jesus Christ, and you slathered it on your dick and it gave you a foot-long steel-hard erection. Until there's clinical evidence (of the peer-reviewed double-blind variety) behind it, it's quackery. In medicine, in science, and in logic, the default truth value for a proposition is "false." That's how we filter the snake oil from the real medicine.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
299. Guess my late M&D were child abusers too. Putting me on insulin at age seven...
How DARE they?

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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Elspeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
322. I wonder if the doctor's diagnosis was wrong
That would explain a lot.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
323. Good God, this bullshit thread is still alive?
Quack preparartions that eat people's noses off are NOT going to cure melanoma.

As much as you might like that they would, they won't.

You want to believe? that's fine. But do us a favor and report back in five years, and tell us if that kid is still alive.

Redstone
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
324. This Article Is Very Poor
Extremely biased against traditional medicine-for reasons unknown-and written by a fifth grader whose characterization of the events I can scarcely credit. I seriously doubt that the stage-IV melanoma is "cured," regardless that the primary lesion has been burned off. You don't get to a stage-IV with a single lesion and no other systemic involvements. All the spaghetti and meatballs in the world won't make the prognosis any worse, and all the wheat grass, crystals, and tai chi in the world won't restore him.

On the other hand, I deplore that people are not allowed to make their own healthcare decisions and exercise their own preferences, even when a preponderance of the available evidence (in this case, a positive biopsy, regardless of who delivered news of it) indicates they are probably making a grievous (and potentially criminally negligent) mistake.

What on earth really impeded the removal of the cancerous mole? Why were they consulting a traditional oncologist in the first place?

Mom might have avoided confrontation had she begged a second consultation with another oncologist on an emergency basis, perhaps one more receptive to her approach or her son's preferences, rather than choose to take the "homemade-doctoring-or-else" route. It's unfortunate that Child Protective Services was left with no recourse in addressing the issue but disrupt the family.

The mother is depicted as "betrayed" by everyone, arrested, and abused. Okay, I don't buy her story, either, or think she hasn't unduly influenced her son to place an equally talismanic faith in alternative cancer therapies, some of which are undeserving, ineffective, or even harmful. Holistic healing can be a wonderful adjunct to aggressive treatment of an aggressive disease, but there are no miracles without the real science.
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