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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:17 AM
Original message
It is time for us to disband the Military
Seriously - since WWII our military has been nothing short of a bully on booty call. A nation pisses us off with an economy we don't like, so we send in our guns and blow things up. A country doesn't let us put a pipeline in, or won't give us carte blanche with their canal, and BOOM! there it is...

So in the interest of the world and all nations, I propse we disband the military. Yep, send all the USMC, Navy, USAF and Army home, with generous severance packages and a nice GI Bill to take care of them while we finally shift out of a wartime economy into a peacetime one (finally! We've been wartime since we were bombed at Pearl Harbor. Think about it.)

"But but but what about TERRA! What about the evil doers???? 9-11!! 9-11!!!"

Well, before you go all Darryl Worley on us, you remember we do have a National Guard and state militias, right? After we bring everyone back, the folks in the NG and what not will be assigned the task of protecting the borders. Keep in mind, there is not a thing the military could have done to prevent 9-11 (unless, of course, that whole scrambling aircraft idea made any sense)

The military is a huge part of our budget. It's why we are borrowing so much goddamn money from China. And it's why our kids and grandchildren will be riddled with debt.

So time to take an elephant gun and lay waste to that 800 lb pachyderm in the middle of the room. The military does NO good right now and is only making everything worse.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. The problem with Disbanding the Military at this time is that would...
leave the Private Contractors in place to have there will.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do I have a plan for them :)
Besides making them stand trial at the Hague (and I do think Blackwater should face trial for mercenary crimes and crimes against humanity) I also propose we disband them, and put Eric Prince in prison for life.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. And, if you disband the military, how to you get the corporate criminals to the Hague?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Remember that National guard thingy?
They can escort them.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Sorry, they're outta equipment for the most part. And they are SUPPOSED to be domestic
They probably wouldn't be able to go around the world grabbing the criminals you want to catch.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Oh I don't want to go around the world grabbing criminals
That's not our job.

I just want the borders secure. That's the only thing the military should do.

I'm sick of us as self-appointed world policeman.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I'm confused. Who takes the corporate war criminals to the Hague?
They are not gonna be waiting for the sheriff on Main Street, Anytown, USA.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Eric Prince lives in VA
If he runs, then it's Interpol's job.

But its about time we stopped playing world cop. We never really go after the real bad guys anyway. Pol Pot never was even looked for, and Pinochet died at home in his sleep.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Eric Prince is not the only guy who needs to visit International Courts
And he is unlikely to be waiting around to be cuffed should things progress to that point.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Well, like I said, Interpol's job then
Set a nice reward on the rat bastard's head, dead or alive and he'll be brought in.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. You trust that INTERPOL is not heavily influenced by large global corporations?
Wish I had your faith
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. That's a non sequitor
Disbanding the military will do nothing but good for our country
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Ah, no it won't
Just ask a lot of the peaceful warrior vets here at DU. The military has its place. It deserves decent civilian leadership and THAT has been the problem of late.

There is gun control to some degree, yet people are still killed by legal guns. Getting rid of the military officially will not get rid of threats.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. No, give him a job
I think we could use them to man some observation posts on Global Warming -- up in the high Arctic. Baffin Island maybe..
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Actually, the problem with disbanding the military at any time is that...
there would be an open coup d'etat and no one would bother denying anymore that this is the world's largest banana republic, and always has been.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm all for that!
But I think the way to sell it is like they do in the 12-step programs -- can we just not fund the Pentagon for this one year coming up?

Take all that Pentagon budget, spend some on health care, some on infrastructure, pay down some debt, and maybe even a working class tax break.

First you have to get the U.S. to admit that it is a Militaroholic. Have they hit bottom yet?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Bad idea
Face it, we don't live in a nice neighborhood. A defensive military is a necessity until the human race starts to grow up, something it shows no sign of doing.

The Pentagon has needed its job redefined for many decades. Instead of being cheap muscle for multinational corporations, it should be a small standing army to provide the core of a national defense program. We need to retreat back within our borders, to drop a failed geopolitical strategy that has just about bankrupted us.

Mostly, we need to guard against cabals of ideologues within that building. Such men have now gotten us into two disastrous wars by their cockeyed theorizing, Vietnam and now Iraq.

The Pentagon has also long been a welfare program for arms contractors. That building needs to be put on a strict diet and those contractors need to diversify their industries. We simply can't afford them any more.

Alas, anyone who tries to do this will be called soft on defense by strutting bantam roosters in the US barnyard. It will take a much stronger leader than we have seen in many, many years. Even Eisenhower waited until he was just about out the door to warn us we needed to do it.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. How big is your neighborhood?
Mexico and Canada seem like nice enough neighbors.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Keep the military, but give them worthy civilian leadership
and purge the brass of neocons, PNACers, end-timer fanatics, and religious zealots who forgot that their oaths were to the Constitution.

The military deserves sane, wise civilian leaders. We can't blame the military for what vile civilians have done with/to them.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. The human race is doing well growing up
It's Americans that haven't.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Exactly
We are in no position to run a military. We're plain irresponsible. We cannot be trusted.
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Progressive_In_NC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Sincerely, Russia, China, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, and all the rest of world's gov't that oppress
their citizens.

The world is not doing well growing up. In fact, it's regressing if you want to know the truth. Not everywhere mind you, but in a lot of places; driven by religion and greed.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. none of them are planning to invade North Carolina, relax
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 12:41 PM by LSK
If anything China and Russia will just BUY America.
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Bad neighborhood?
Are you worried about Canada or Mexico invading the US?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Does your neighborhood end with your next door neighbors?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Do you honestly think Iran will try to invade?
Do you think North Korea would behave so batshit crazy if they didn't have a boogeyman (that's us)?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. so Iceland and Costa Rica are the threats????
Seriously, please tell us what country would actually

1. Want to invade us

2. Is capable of invading us.

This is just so silly.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. as long as we have nukes, no country is attacking us
Try to think about it.

And like the OP said, the military could not have stopped 9/11.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
9. And let Blackwater take over? No, thank you.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. They won't take over if they're all frogmarched into the Hague
Which is where they belong
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. It's much easier to deal with people....
...who are motivated by money than those who are motivated by cult-like loyality to nonsensical phrases such as "duty", "tradition" or "democracy".
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Bingo. We've got corporations developing PRIVATE armies these days.
Seems like the REAL need for our National Army is growing,
even if it has yet to be recognized by the public at large.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. There have always been mercenary armies
Knights Templar, Dutch East India Company...history is full of them.

Eric Prince just needs a nice cell for life in the Hague. That should send a message.
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Progressive_In_NC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Shoot, when Washington crossed the Delaware he was going to fight a German force
not the English. They'll always be here, some are just worse than others.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. make them illegal?
:shrug:
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
16. Canada would invade and we'd have free health care for all.
That would be Terrible!
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. A plan is in place, it is the Constitution
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Isn't that why they pass an appropriation every year?
to cover the support of the Army?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Could be ...
But their violation is clear because we would not have multi-year military acquisition or procurements plans and processes that extends > 2 years.

I believe its orginal intent was the swords to ploushare concept.

Swords to ploughshares is a concept in which military weapons or technologies are converted for peaceful civilian applications. The plowshare is often used to symbolize creative tools that benefit mankind, as opposed to destructive tools of war, symbolized by the sword, a similar sharp metal tool with an arguably opposite use. The common expression "beat swords into plowshares" has been used by disparate social and political groups.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's not a violation
The annual military appropriation requires that the funds be obligated by the end of the fiscal year of the appropriation. Once the fiscal year ends, no more money can be spent via the prior year's appropriation. A new appropriation for the new fiscal year must be passed in order for continued spending to occur. So multi-year acquisitions are reauthorized every year and don't violate the constitution.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Thats the mechanics of the appropriation process
without an actually re-look at the utility / role of the entire military.

This is where the intent, the letter, and the spirit of the constitution is violated. I have never witnessed a moment where the question is raised. Have you?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. Then how do you explain multi-year appropriations
specifically:

MILCON (military construction) - 5 year money
Ships - 5 year money
Procurement - 3 year money
R&D - 2 year money
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. You're clearly stuck on stupid.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Wow - so you like us being at war
Do you like it when we torture too? I'll bet you chuckled at the Abu Gharaib photos...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Bravo, good sir - so well said! So brainy, so erudite! Clappity-clap. nt
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. WHY???
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. Pot? Meet Kettle!
:eyes:
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
34. Nice idea, but...
A global police force following all the wars in history that eventually led to WW1, then WW2, then to a Cold War between the last two powers in the world, is all that keeps the world "peaceful". If European countries had to get their own resources, they would be spending much more on the military, and not as much on social programs. However, since the world is increasingly integrated into the same economic system(the result of war), everyone can work together(for the most part).

The current world, and history, would be a much different place without large scale organized war. Everything we have is because of war(along with what we don't have). There wouldn't be an America without it. You have to take the good with the bad(if you want the good). No cherry picking.
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Bassic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. And five Blackwater free reign?
That's a scary thought.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
42. K&R
Please people would you stop and think about it.

Who wants to invade us and who is CAPABLE of invading us? As long as we have nukes no country would even try.

Russia and China would not invade us, they would just buy us.

Think about it please.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
48. We could cut our military budget 90% and outlaw mercenary armies.
And this would increase our security.

We've always been the big cheese of corrupt banana republics.



Bush prancing around in a military flight suit shows us what we are behind the great blue curtains of patriotic bullshit... petty, venal, and prone to fascism.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
51. Not. A. Chance.
Do you really want a "privatized" army?

Think about it.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
52. Ah...no. No, that would not be a good idea.
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 02:22 PM by Basileus Basileon
I'm sorry, but I rather like the idea of American deterrence. Perhaps I'm just a crazy Republican neocon, but I'd rather not have China be the world's military hyperpower. I'd rather there be a counterbalance to the Russias, Pakistans, Chinas, North Koreas, and Sudans of the world. America ain't just America. As a nation of trade, our prime interest is in the entire world's stability. If North Korea invades South Korea--which they would if there were no American deterrent--that's not only a moral outrage, but it hurts the world economy. Responsible American power (like under Kennedy) is preferable to no American power. Just because Bush misused a tool doesn't mean that we shouldn't have tools.

Ideas I agree with:
1. Cutting the size of the army.
2. Leaving Iraq.
3. Cutting funding for new ground vehicles.
4. Killing the Osprey.
5. Cutting the size of the Marines.

Ideas I do not:
1. Scuttling the Navy
2. Decreasing the size of the Navy
3. Destroying the Air Force
4. Decreasing the size of the Air Force.
5. Cutting funding for DARPA.
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