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Why YOU should support state drivers licenses for undocumented persons

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:54 PM
Original message
Why YOU should support state drivers licenses for undocumented persons
Edited on Wed Oct-31-07 10:56 PM by struggle4progress

Denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens is a current rightwing rallying cry. And like other rightwing rallying cries, this one supports an agenda. Here, the agenda is to increase state control over individual lives.

Requiring individuals to produce documents to obtain licenses, and requiring states to verify those documents before issuing licenses, is part and parcel of a larger current effort by rightwing extremists to accustom citizens to increasing intrusive government inspection of their lives and habits. This movement has already produced: national uniformity requirements for drivers licenses which will convert drivers licenses into de facto national ID cards; requirements for chip emplacement in passports, potentially enabling detailed tracking of personal movement; and a proposal to require Americans to seek permission from the government 72 hours before certain travel, including air travel.

Serious activists would be wise to oppose this agenda in every possible fashion, at every possible turn.

A number of ordinary American citizens cannot completely document their citizenship for reasons entirely beyond anyone's control. Local records are misplaced, lost (say) in fires or floods, or in some cases never existed. But beyond the important and legitimate concern that such people be treated fairly, there is another and more sinister possibility that we must not ignore: it is the malicious pretence that records do not exist.

The current Administration has already proposed, for example, that employers should be forced to fire individuals whose Social Security records contain inconsistencies. Like the drivers license proposal, that proposal was cloaked as an immigration control measure. But it had a hidden face: it offered the government an easy way to harass opponents, simply by notifying their employers that they must fire the individual in question because of Social Security records discrepancies.

Requiring ever-increasing documentation for drivers licenses may have a similar abuse potential. The political history of the United States in recent years at least suggests that a certain level of paranoia is sane and healthy: how else can one react to kidnapping for torture, assaults on habeas corpus and posse comitatus, sneak and peek and national security letters issued with gag orders but without meaningful oversight, warrantless wiretapping, the use of international watch lists to target anti-war activists, and any number of other totalitarian gestures?

The American system of checks and balances never depended merely upon the division of government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches but also involves certain local and federal distinctions. Immigration is a federal issue: the enforcement of national immigration laws are a federal responsibility, and there are appropriate federal agencies, such as the INS, charged with such enforcement. If the federal government fails to meet its obligations in this regard, voters and citizens should (of course) make their minds known and make their voices heard on the issue.

To regard immigration enforcement as a responsibility of state and local government is a mistake. These smaller entities lack the resources, coordination, and statutory basis for effective action on immigration issues. The attempt, to foist immigration enforcement responsibilities onto local government, can only encourage loud, pointless, and ineffective anger against local government: it is an attempt to divert attention from the responsible federal entity. By encouraging citizens to focus their attention on remedies that cannot work, the move to hold local government responsible for federal failure represents yet another instance of the rightwing effort to disempower citizens by confusing them.

The local-federal distinction allows distinct governments to pursue conflicting objectives, without attempting to solve the almost unsolvable problem of producing a unified policy that appropriately balances all considerations.

Drivers, for example, gain some advantage from the fact that other drivers have passed licensing tests and have obtained insurance. But in much of this country, it is simply impossible to survive without a vehicle, whether it is legally driven or illegally driven. So making licenses more difficult to obtain can only increase the number of unlicensed and uninsured drivers on the road. Common sense suggests that the person who is driving without license or insurance is more likely to flee the scene of an accident and less likely to stop and render aid. It for this reason that the law typically does not confiscate the licenses of drivers who have (say) cheated on their income taxes: though it might encourage some people to attend their tax obligations more carefully, it might also substantially reduce general respect for the law and make the roads less safe.

Entirely similar considerations apply to undocumented persons. Whether they cannot document their citizenship because records were unavoidably lost or because they entered the country illegally is largely irrelevant. Considerations of road safety suggest that the proper policy is to encourage them to obey the laws governing vehicular travel, rather than to encourage them to disregard such laws.

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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Okay explain to me
...why would an undocumented worker want to be documented in any US database? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of being here in the US undetected, illegally?

And what better way of capturing undocumented workers by documenting them?

Also, Will allowing them to have drivers license mean, they can now drive, since I am sure they are not violating the lawby driving all over without one...and do you need to have a drivers license to be insured? Thank god, they are not driving around without drivers license and uninsured.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You assume that hiding is the object of being undocumented: but in fact
people can be undocumented for many reasons.

It's perfectly possible to be an American citizen and be undocumented, as I indicated in my OP.

There are also a number of people who are here "illegally" and without documents, through no act of their own: it's not at all difficult to find folk who were brought to the US at a young age by their parents, who were raised in the US, and who did not learn that they were not actually citizens until many years later, when they became adults.

Your belief notwithstanding, such people are not undocumented because they want to hide.

In fact, even people who bypassed border control and entered the US by stealth typically just want to live ordinary lives and are not very interested in hiding.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Don't worry about it. No illegal is going to want a fucking drivers' license.
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 10:28 PM by lonestarnot
LOL ridiculous. They can get illegal ones. :toast:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Undocumented workers want to be able to drive to work.
And they all don't know someone in their local DMV that can be bribed.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. A BIG K & R!
Edited on Wed Oct-31-07 11:09 PM by NCevilDUer
That is everything I've been trying to say, in my inarticulate frustration, since the subject came up.

Clear, concise, and well reasoned - everything I am not. But I agree, 100%.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Hey EvilDUer!
Long time no see! Hope everything is goin well! :toast:
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sorry, but none of your arguments make sense to me.
I had difficulty getting a Ga. State ID because they didn't like my ORIGINAL birth certificate! I explained to them that it was the one my parents were issued in 193, but they said it didn't have the state seal so it wasn't acceptable. I ordered a new one from my home state and got my Ga. ID, but you see where I'me heading with this. I don't think there's any racisism involved...at least here.

I don't believe in issuing DL's to undocumented/illegal immigrants because they're trying to circumvent the US laws.

I realize they are trying to escape horrible conditions in their home country, but guess what? That's not MY PROBLEM! They need to pressure THEIR President to fix the problems in THEIR country!

I don't buy the BS of road safety either. There are MANY illegals here in north Ga. MANY of them work in the numerous chicken plants...and are used and abused workers! I believe they all already know how to drive....well...as well as the rest of Georgians know how to drive (which leaves a lot to be desired!) They don't make enough money to buy auto insurance, and the very limited drivers training given to obtain a license wouldn't do a thing.

I guess I'm going to be considered a nut Pub by saying this, but damn it, I try to abide by all the laws, and I expect everyone else to do the same! If you haven't entered the US via legal means...GO HOME!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Your story about the Georgia ID illustrates one of my points: it's utterly
ridiculous to cause people much grief over such a piece of plastic. And the more tolerant we are of such governmental action, the more likely we are to suffer abuses from it.

This time they fuss about the absence of a seal on your birth certificate; next time, if you are an activist, they'll complain that the seal is the wrong color; and the time after that they'll complain the seal is in the wrong location. At some point, you may get no response to your request for an copy satisfying all latest and most up-to-date requirements -- or you'll be told your records can't be found.

Given government behavior during recent years, you should take such possibilities seriously, and you should be appropriately concerned and ready to fight back. But instead, having this unpleasant experience, you are ready to take out your anger on illegal aliens -- which does not suggest clear thinking about the situation.
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tesla78 Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Do you know about the NAU?
North American Union
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. No sale.
The move to fascism has been progressing for decades from both the Democratic and Republik authoritarians.

Sorry. The primary factor for me on this issue is American jobs and American pay.


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. If you are concerned about American workers and salaries, then you
should think carefully about the mechanisms used by corporate America to undercut workers.

Employers like to employ people who they can easily have deported. The reason is that such workers are easily dissuaded from organizing: it only takes a phone call to get them sent hundreds or thousands of miles away. Being powerless, those workers work rather hard for relatively low pay. For this reason, regional wages decline as other people lose their jobs to powerless workers.

If you are really interested in strengthening the bargaining position of American workers and increasing working class salaries, you ought to contemplate the famous old Wobblie slogan An injury to one is an injury to all.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. But, as it is, undocumented workers are ALREADY driving.
They are also driving extremely carefully so they don't get caught. One of my friends has been here for fifteen years and has never been stopped. His life span has probably been reduced from the stress but he's an uncommonly good driver and his car is always street legal. It has to be. He's supporting a family of five in Mexico.

Your objection speaks to a different issue.

This is about making DRIVING safer.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. I can't begin to tell you how far off base your justification for "Illegal Aliens"..
Edited on Wed Oct-31-07 11:15 PM by LakeSamish706
to receive illegal Drivers Licenses is. This is absolute BS (IMO of course)... Why the hell should any country in the free world encourage illegal activity within its borders? Sorry, but there are many people in a waiting line that are attempting to do things within the laws of the United States, and no one has the right to jump the line to reside in the US!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Maybe YOUR state DMV has so much extra money for license enforcement, that
the state agency can take on extra responsibilities essentially unrelated to drivers licenses.

Mine doesn't. I want my state agency devote its limited time and staff to ensuring that people who apply for drivers licenses are competent to drive. And if they find they have extra time on their hands, I hope they beef up enforcement.

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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. For your information, WA state already justifies licensing ALL drivers in our state...
for the sake of public safety and easing the task on law officers, who have to actually patrol our highways (and do the massive paperwork for accidents)! By discouraging unlicensed driving, washington state is precisely discouraging "illegal activity".

It's the civil way of doing things in the "free world"!

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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. Since everyone has to show documentation for a license
why not illegals. And you are correct. If they want a driver's license document them. The objection the spanish are complain about is, they would be registered and probably picked up.

And would you want someone with out a drivers license and insurance driving around out there and running into you. I don't.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I suggest you be less about the "Give me your papers please" trend in our country
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. The "spanish"?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Because it's good public policy to make everyone safer?
lol

:hi:
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. The DMV is responsible for licensing & inspecting vehicles & vehicle operators.
Period.

They are not a subdivision of the INS, the FBI, Homeland Security, Domestic Intelligence, or the police department.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. The trend in this joint is for everyone to be an adjunct of ICE.
Lookit what just happened in San Diego during the fire. A coordinated roundup.

The lines are blurring in a really disturbing way.
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