My brother and I just waterboarded each other... yup, it's torture..

[Wetzelbill]

I was thinking about the AG confirmation and how Mukasey isn't certain that waterboarding constitutes torture. And then I started thinking about how Rudy Giuliani doesn't believe waterboarding is torture either.

So I figured I'd find out for myself. I mean if it isn't torture, it can't be that bad, right?

Let me tell you this, it's not pleasant. And we were operating under circumstances where we absolutely knew that the other person wasn't going to kill us with the technique.

I was wiped out after four tries. My best time was 20 seconds, and I literally gritted it out. It took about all I had, so much so that right afterward on my last try I barely lasted 9 seconds.

My brother tried it a few more times than I did. He beat me on average times, but his highest was 18 seconds.

I would say that if somebody was repeatedly waterboarded it would not take a whole helluva lot to break them. Immediately a person feels panicked, and that's without the additional fear of thinking that their captors are actually trying to murder them. It's a pretty harrowing ordeal for the time that you are being subjected to it.

It's definitely torture. And if anybody doesn't believe it, then they should try it themselves. According to an ABC news report CIA officers who subject themselves to it only last an average of 14 seconds. And those are people who are trained to withstand different types of torture.

Why is is so difficult? Well, immediately you start to gag on water. Plus you have cellophane over your face, blocking your nose, so you can't breathe well anyway, and then water is rushing over your face and into your mouth. Within seconds you're gagging and spitting and struggling. It seems like an eternity. The first time I did it, I was not prepared at all. I lasted nine seconds and that seem like quite a bit of time. The time I lasted 20 was part luck. I somehow was able to spit the water out enough so that I wasn't gagging too much. Then I just held my breath and tried to gut it out for a few seconds.

But as I said earlier, that 20 seconds wiped me out. The next time out, I was pretty weakened.

So I could see after several times how somebody would spill their guts about anything just to make it stop.

And I could also see how it would be dangerous to someone who was already in poor health. If a person with a heart condition was waterboarded several times, it wouldn't surprise me if it instigated a heart attack or something.

So yeah, it's torture. And if Rudy or Dick Cheney or anybody else doesn't think it is, well, I'd like to see how they would react if they had it done to them.

[leftchick]

1. of course it is torture

that is why the united states of america uses it!

[Hissyspit]

2. You knew "the other person wasn't going to kill "you.

Fox Noise and the right-wingers always conveniently completely ignore that CRITICAL part.

Of course it's torture.

[Wetzelbill]

5. oh yes

The fear would add to it significantly. Like I knew that I could sit up and wave him off. A person who is tied up can't do that. If someone believes their life is in danger, that fear makes it quite a bit worse. It's bad enough, but toss in that and it's godawful.

[Vyan]

64. You forget...

even in Gitmo or a Black Site the detainee can always make it stop -- all they have to do is tell them what they want to hear.

Vyan

[MichaelHarris]

3. Is your name Jamie

from the MythBusters?

[Wetzelbill]

4. nope, it's Bill... however I am drinking a Thirst Buster

if that helps.

[MichaelHarris]

6. LOL

I wonder when Mythbusters is going to take on some Bush myths?

[Wetzelbill]

7. so are you trying to say that Bush isn't a great leader

who could single-handedly fly a fighter plane into the Middle East and destroy all those Islams in one fell swoop? Right. I suppose next you'll tell me he isn't the Messiah or something.

Actually, I would think taking on Bush myths would be a huge undertaking. Since he has done nothing but lie and create myths his whole life that would be one rough research mission.

[MichaelHarris]

8. There may actually

be evidence that he's not even human.

[Buns_of_Fire]

36. This would seem to be more up Mike Rowe's line

AKA, "Dirty Jobs"...

[awoke_in_2003]

52. Mike has done a lot of Dirty Jobs

but that sounds like a line he wouldn't cross

[tbyg52]

40. What a great suggestion!

I hope it gets to them and they act on it.

[kentauros]

70. Mythbusters have taken on torture, but

it was the "Chinese Water Torture" method. They used one of their women crew members as a test subject. I don't recall if they did call it torture in the end, but she certainly did if only for the reasons that she was close to panic by the end of about an hour and a half.

As with all of their stunts, they urge people "not to try this at home" so that's probably why they haven't done any other torture techniques that are far more dangerous, like waterboarding.

Somewhere I have a non-sport trading card set of "Tortures of the World" that has a nice little graphic of the torture with info on the back. There are some nasty things out there that we do to our fellow humans for a little bit of info ( or perceived "safety.")

One other reason I can think of that they continue to use this "technique" for is also psychological against the other prisoners. Allowing them to hear the screams and whatever else go a long way in psychological torture and breaking, too. Simply putting a black bag over someone's head and manhandling them out of their cell also has a big effect on their panic and reactions.

I'm not a professional in the psychological fields, so I may be wrong on some of these counts of effects on people. But I do recall some interviews with previous detainees of Guantanimo speaking of these kinds of psychological techniques. There was also a great British "reality show" called Spy where the people picked for it had to go through some psychological "breaking" in the beginning, too. Not torture, but use of black bags on their heads as they were "kidnapped" without warning in the middle of the night, yelling, manhandling, interrogation, and similar things. Nothing I'd want to go through whether I had an inkling of an idea that it would happen or not.

What I don't understand is why there are no available films of this in action, even of the instances of CIA agents being "tested" with it. Seems like that would work very much in Congress' favor when interrogating potential AGs...

[PearliePoo2]

9. The line coming from the admin

is that it's a little "head dunking"
Bullshit
Apparently heart attacks DO happen and the victim is revived (sometimes) only to be subjected to it again and again.
I think read that the head is inclined down and arms and legs are strapped tight.

[BridgeTheGap]

10. "Tell them what they want to hear..."

That's about all it induces. You might reveal useful information, but more often than not, the tortured suspect will resort to "telling them what they want to hear."

[izzie]

11. Back to the Puritans and their dunking chair.

Don[t you love a country that moves back wards?

[SoCalDem]

13. She floats..she's a witch. burn her.. she sank & drowned.. oops

[izzie]

67. Does seem to be the reason that this group in the WH use.

As they keep saying. In war time the President can do any thing sooooo we are in a endless war. I wonder if a Clinton gets in that type reason will hold up also? Course she may float. I am sure the WH would see a good reason to try it out before next Nov. I am sure that Barbara floats. What do you think?

[IndyOp]

12. Thom Hartmann suggests we all go see "Rendition" - it addresses what

torture is and is otherwise a very good movie - suspenseful and keeps you guessing.

[babylonsister]

16. Frontline has a 'Rendition' documentary showing Nov. 6th:

probably not the same one, but it looks like a must-see.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[blondie58]

28. Rendition was a great movie- I saw it opening day

it seems to me that the tide is turning- Hollywood and others are starting to speak out about Bush and his goons, finally. They showed the trailer for Robert Redford's upcoming movie Lions for Lambs, which looks really good, also. Ironically, a 'commercial' for the Marines was also shown, which makes me upset, as it was our tax dollars that spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to entice more young men into joining the military.

[immoderate]

14. I applaud you for your craziness...

The scientific method is the best way to obtain knowledge.

I think the trick is to get somebody who says it is a fraternity prank to try it. The key here is that somebody "can only last x seconds." How can it not be torture? What else could it be?

I admire your devotion to curiosity and truth.

--IMM

[Pachamama]

15. Wow....You have Guts....Thanks for feedback and lesson though...

Good thing you have a good relationship with your Bro!

I never have doubted that its torture....I just wish that all those that seem to wonder if its torture or not, had to try it...

[NNN0LHI]

17. I would not suggest others to try this

It can be deadly. Really. Don't take much water in the lungs to drown.

Don

[spanone]

18. mukasey KNOWS it's torture. he's an educated man.

he's bu$h*s educated man

[L. Coyote]

43. Exactly. Mukasey just can't say is is because that says Bush tortured and is a criminal

subject to the death penalty for torturing. Rumsfeld and Gonzo too, of course.

[NBachers]

57. So set up a demonstration

and let Mukasey try it out during his condemnation hearings.

[zabet]

19. They knew and still know..

that waterboarding IS torture. How do you think
they arrived at the decision to use this as an
interrogation technique - - - through testing.

[JHB]

20. New Rule:

Any time someone says such-and-such "isn't torture", they should be subjected to it by someone who is not in their pay (or maybe someone they do pay, but poorly).

After all, if we don't torture everyone, how will we know they're not terrorists?

[Diclotican]

21. Wetzelbill

Wetzelbill

The "funny" thing about the questing about Watherboarding is tortur or not,is that when the old USSR use it on political prisoners, in the late 1870s-1980s, The Congress and Senat of United States of America demanded that the sovjet juridacy have to close down the pratise, becouse it was tortur.. And many other nations, many of them friends of US was using waterboarding as a regular use for "getting information", and even then it was tortur

But when US itsef are using it, then no one think waterboarding is tortur?. How come it that the goverment in US today says that it is not tortur, when it have, on record say that it IS tortur to waterboarding someone...

If it is not tortur, then Mr Rudy, Dick Chenney, or other of the Administration want to try it, for free of couse?.. Or is it becouse that the use of TORTUR is doing someting good?. For the US standing in the World?

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[w4rma]

68. torture has a silent e at the end, but good and accurate post. (nt)

[Diclotican]

75. w4rma

w4rma

Thank you for the correction, allways tray to be better in engelish...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[Kingshakabobo]

22. We need someone near DC to take that show on the road, ala Michael Moore's 'patriot act' truck.

Someone needs to set up shop outside the house and senate to offer free samples for supporters of the technique.

[libnnc]

25. THAT is a helluva ideer.

Email Moore about it. I serious. That could be the focus of his next movie.

[Richard D]

73. That is brilliant.

[INDIA]

78. Wouldn't that help the argument that it's NOT torture?

You know, since you can do it to passerbys on the street and they walk away unharmed minutes later?

I doubt you could employ Hanoi Hilton techniques during people's lunchbreaks and have the same results.

[Javaman]

23. Had a little extra time on the weekend with nothing to do? LOL nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

27. Does their mother know they're doing this?!

Boys, I TOLD YOU a thousand times. No waterboarding in the house.

Shit, my mom got mad when my brother and I would wrestle in the living room.

[Wetzelbill]

29. the sad thing is I'm supposed to be an adult

33 next month.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

31. Just in touch with your inner child...

Or your inner Cheney. Whatever!

[CoffeeCat]

47. LOL!

Good one. That really made me LOL!

Kids I told you....

[AlCzervik]

24. let me know when you get the dentist drill and go all Marathon man.

[Buns_of_Fire]

35. Is it safe? (n/t)

[Feron]

26. No offense ,but

a do-it-yourself-at-home experiment in waterboarding sounds like an application for the Darwin Award.

The whole point really is that torture is inhumane and ineffective. Interrogative techniques are more humane and are far more effective.

[Wetzelbill]

30. I saw it done a few times

I think a Fox correspondent did it once. You have to do it as safe as possible, and not keep doing it over and over and over. A few times is more than enough. But yeah, it could get pretty dangerous quickly.

[soulcore]

39. Don't knock till you've tried it.

I tried my best to simulate the conditions on my own with just a wash rag over my face, and even when I HAD THE POWER TO STOP IT it still scared the begeezus out of me.

You REALLY do think you are going to drown. Of course it's torture.

[gateley]

51. Then why do they use it? We KNOW torture isn't effective, and if the goal

is to get CREDIBLE info and intel, why aren't we using methods that would bring the results we want?

It just makes no sense.

[awoke_in_2003]

53. "Then why do they use it?"

Because our gov't and intelligence agent are run by sadistic psychopaths. They love to do these things, plus you have the added bonus of keeping the people you are occupying stirred up. There is a lot of money to be made in chaos (ask Halliburton and Blackwater), more than you would get in a peaceful Iraq. Plus, with a peaceful Iraq, the oil would start making it to market (instead of being stolen) and the price of oil would go down- not good for the speculators.

[Th1onein]

66. They use it because they want the false intelligence.

They need the false intelligence to support their wars. It's that simple. The false intel from the torture of Al-Libby was used to support the idea of waging war on Iraq. Remember?

[gateley]

72. Yeah, I do remember -- you have a great point. I think ALL the Dems are

saying 'no torture' so hopefully there's an end in sight. Thanks.

[ginnyinWI]

32. this cartoon was in my local paper this morning

[Efilroft Sul]

33. One mouse click away if things go wrong.

http://darwinawards.com/misc/contact.html

[underpants]

34. Did it WORK?

If you say Yes then you are the first to make that claim.

[Buns_of_Fire]

37. I wish my siblings and I got along that well! (n/t)

[Blue-Jay]

38. Jeez.

[gateley]

41. Don't laugh - but does anybody know anything about truth serum? Is there such

a thing? I seem to remember it "wasn't allowed" - maybe according to the Geneva Conventions?

I don't understand why, when torture is proven not to "work", they continue to use it as a means of getting information. Besides that they're a bunch of sick fucks.

[Diclotican]

45. gateley

gateley

A truth serum dosent exist, and have maybee never really exsited either.. Why?. We do have some schemical who can defuse some responses to questning and interigation, but not one country in the world, have as sutch a serum who are telling the truth.. The Russians dosent manage to made one, either the americans, or the other big nations in the world.. I doubt it wil never be a fact either...

Tortur are from "old times" used to get revange, torture in europe, in the middle ages was never used as a tool itself, but as a "extra" punicment from the goverment to peopole who had revolted, or was doing great crimes.. It was never used in force, just for the sake of it.. Even in the Middle ages it was many rules where tortur was prohibeded, and was used in few cases infact.. You may dont belive me, but in verry many cases the use of tortur was never in use.. Just in the cases where the goverment, or prince of the land was angry, and like to stand a point, the high princes or the king/emperor itself sometimes ordered the use of Tortur.. Not for the sake of it, but becouse they want to stand up, and give unruly peopole a message.. Dont mess with the King, he can do this to you...

Even where the nations ARE using Tortur as a means to gratify the goverment, it is rules who are given when to tortur.. In verry many cases just the name of using tortur are given the prisoners enough reason to come clean.. Even if it means many, many year behind bars.. Its better to be behind bar, then to be dead..

You vil maybee be werry suprised, but even the old USSR, after Stalin, was a nation who dosent used tortur as just another tool.. In fact USSR made some verry interesting metodes to scare the prisoner, but without "harm" the subject as they used to do.. In the 1970s and in the 1980s the KGB, was expert in torture vith chemicals who was given the prisoner, and then they just wait to se what happend.. And verry often the prisoner was coming clean, if they was guilty of something.. KGB was not in the need to the old style Stalinist behavour, where they killed thousands, houndres of thousands for no go reason..
I dont to "wash clean" USSR in any way, but want to say that even there, they was not using tortur, just for the fun of it..


Now, we do have a US Administration who are acting in the same maner.. They want revange for 11 sept 2001, and they dont care who are getting the tortur.. They try to go around Geneve konvention, and all the others they in its time have been agreed about was the rule when sivilizatied nation was at war...

This is just, dam F*** Revange for 11 sept, and the goverment of United States of America have been doing yourself a verry bad thing vith this.. Next time american soldiers are down, and in forreign custody, America can NEVER belive that the soldiers of the armed forces have the right to be treated as a POW, and not as a enemy combandandt and been treatet cruel.. With this Administration no american, who are abroad are safe, if the guest nation are in war with the US... Rembember that, next time some american soldiers are arrested, and send to a "Safe house" to be guest of the nation they are trying to attac.. You may given storyes where the soldies are treated extremely bad, maybe beaten, maybee hurt, maybee starved, and maybe even killed, by the yealers.. If you belive that Waterboarding are the worst thing a prisoner can get.. You have never read about Chinese tortur, or sentral-asiatic tortur habits.. Spesially the Chinese and Persians have some verry "intersting" thing they can do with a prisoner... Verry, verry scary thing if you ask me...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language.

[gateley]

49. Thanks so much - very interesting facts that I wasn't aware of. I'm in total

agreement that what the U.S. government is doing now is disastrous in terms of the repercussions the American soldiers might face. The inhumanity of it sickens me.

I don't even want to think about some of the other "interesting" tortures you refer to. Human beings treating others that way fills me with sorrow.

That's why I was hoping there was a "magic potion" that worked without doing harm or even inflicting fear on someone - just a little shot, the person gets a nice buzz on, and spills the beans! Oh well.

Thanks!!

[jayctravis]

58. Sodium thiopental

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Legal status
Schedule III(US)

Routes Oral, intravenous
Sodium thiopental, better known as Sodium Pentothal (a trademark of Abbott Laboratories), thiopental, thiopentone sodium, or trapanal, is a rapid-onset short-acting barbiturate general anaesthetic. It is an intravenous ultra-short-acting barbiturate. Sodium thiopental is a depressant and is sometimes used during interrogations not to cause pain (in fact it may have just the opposite effect) but to weaken the resolve of the subject and make him or her more compliant to pressure.

[spanone]

42. again?

[pattmarty]

44. Come on, try harder. Bush/Cheney says it's not.

[Gman]

46. Did you film it??

It's make a good segment for "Jackass".

[Kurovski]

48. K&R.

You are such an interesting person.

Maybe Mukasey and Giuliani should try it out on each other, that should clear matters up nicely.

[Odin2005]

50. I find it hideous how people can say that's not torture with a straight face.

[The Doctor.]

55. Each and everyone of them does not fear being there

[ConsAreLiars]

54. In the real world, torture victims don't get the option to say "stop" whenever they wish.

What you and your brother did was just a silly game. And they don't "spill their guts," as you suggest. They act out of sheer terror and say whatever they think will put a stop to that hell. Next time, play your silly game with a real sadist and see what happens to you.

(edit typo)

[Wetzelbill]

62. actually they do stop that's the idea

when people are waterboarded they can only hold out so long, and once they do that the people doing it stop. Unless they are just trying to murder them. But then that isn't wateboarding anymore, it's just murder. And I don't suggest anything, I know it for a fact. Spill their guts or act out of sheer terror, it's the same thing, the bottom line is they talk. And if you think it's a silly game, be my guest and give it a shot.

But don't come at me like a smartass and say what I do is a silly game. That's pretty ignorant of you. I'm a columnist and will probably write about it so people will grasp it a little better and understand how sick the advocates of it are. How many people have you tried to inform lately?

[NBachers]

56. A Little Dunk in the Water

What??? You can't even take a little dunk in the water? What's wrong with you?

At our Teachers Carnival, we used to have a dunking chair where you could throw a ball, and if you hit the right spot, the teacher would get dropped into the water.

It's fun! I don't know what your problem is. These terreristss just hate amurkin games.

[Whoa_Nelly]

59. You and your brother are brave

Did you tape it?

[Irreverend IX]

60. 20 seconds?

What stops you from shutting your mouth and holding your breath? Of course, that isn't possible to do indefinitely, but it seems someone could last a good while longer than 20 seconds if they didn't allow water to enter their mouth. In a real torture situation it would probably get you a punch in the stomach to open your mouth again, but in a "waterboarding endurance test" environment I'd think it would improve your endurance.

[Wetzelbill]

61. I tried that

it doesn't work. The situation is so intense you panick almost immediately.

[BB1]

63. did you tape it? Put it on Youtube, for the whole world to see.

In the Netherlands, we don't have a clue to what waterboarding excactly is. I'd like to see, copy (do it ourselves, like you have done) and send the tape to the Government (which is, as you might know, still sponsoring the Chief Idiot). Our police aren't even allowed to stripsearch, let alone do some torture. It'd be nice for our 'Chiefs' to see what their 'friends' are up to.

[Th1onein]

65. Didn't they show waterboarding in the movie, "The Good Shepherd"?

Just wondering.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

69. I can imagine

...fear of thinking that their captors are actually trying to murder them.

I can imagine there are few things worse than this.

[lonestarnot]

71. And you confessed to?

[whistle]

74. It is only torture when you do it to somebody you care about and

...when it is being done to you

[venuspluto]

76. It could make you say anything your captors wanted to hear, probably

"Yes, I stick my male member in jars of mayonaise at the grocery store in front of shocked and horrified little old ladies in order to gratify my peverted urges!"

[deaniac21]

77. One factor that hasn't been thought of yet is that these torture

victims are probably (unlike us) tough. This means that have to endure much more than is described here.