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RANT ON I don't know what is wrong with people

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:39 PM
Original message
RANT ON I don't know what is wrong with people
yes, every time you have a major natural disaster, there are comparisons and people STUDY how the response went

If this gets under your skin I am sorry... but that is a damn fact!

There is much to compare about Katrina (and other natural disasters) and what is currently going on in San Diego

It is mostly in the first 72 hours and what has been done do reduce the loss of life which has been VERY SUCCESSFUL HERE... and if that hurts, tough shit, next case.

Like it or not there were major failures in NOLA...

And so far those failures were not repeated here...

There are SYSTEMIC reasons as to why that didn't happen and you can start with WHY we are having the GOOD response

Let me point to you the obvious...

Since Bush took over, everything IS political

Blanco= Democrat

Swhartzie= Republican

The House and Senate Delegation from Louisiana, mostly dem and mostly not well located in committees

Duncan Hunter is not only a pug (and a candidate for President) but was the Armed Services Committee Chairman and right now the ranking member... (that translates into power and an ability to call in favors)

Local attitudes are also different... especially when it comes to the police. And yes, we have racism, but the local police departments, have been fighting against that for now two decades...

And a working tax base

And plans that have been in the shelves for (in some cases decades)

Look, what happened in NOLA is inexcusable and I said such back then, and will say it again

But what I am seeing here is sick classicism (them white rich folks are having it too easy, and damn they have clowns, and see they have flushing toilets!)

And you are playing into the hands of those who want to keep you divided

Look USE this disaster to push for SERVICE FEES where you live and a GOVERNMENT that works.

And also fight against this politicization of natural disasters

By the way, I will repeat what I said in another thread, perhaps people would be peachy keen if we had our 8.1 quake and had such damage that the place WOULD LOOK like NOLA, blackwater and all

By the way, watch that ball... for the folks who lost their homes... the fights to get those homes back will repeat the same patterns as they did in the Gulf Coast, unless they are well connected (like a certain US Senator) Oh and trust me, that WILL NOT be on the news.

RANT OFF
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good post, Kick and Rec.
I agree, so much in fact that I have little to contribute to what you have written.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks Mike
and now I fully know why things will never, ever change in this country...

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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. The parties of the governor or president don't matter, America and Americans
have never and will never care about Louisiana. We didn't expect you to care.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You'd be amazed but it does matter
oh never mind...

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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The response for Louisiana would be the same with Jindal as governor

or with a Democrat in the white house, or any combination.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Then it is the deep south
and classicism and racism

Thanks...

Somehow the way things are right now... I doubt it

But oh never mind

I'm tired of these sick people who probably wish to see those systemic failures somewhere else
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. No, Mississippi and Alabama seem to get treated just fine

Like I said no one in Louisiana expected America or Americans to care.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That is why Americans sent resources and people
if we didn't care, what the fuck was the San Diego Fire Department doing in NOLA?

Why did we send money, food, et al?

You are falling into the same stereotypes

And you know what? I am sick and tired of it...


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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. I agree with you.
I've said that repeatedly.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
70. I had absolutely no care nor compassion...
Right... I had absolutely no care nor compassion when I was part of a convoy bringing truckloads of food, water, and toiletries to TDHS in Ft. Worth for the evacuees. Heck, none of us cared-- we just did it so we could have a few days off without pay, loading and unloading trucks.

Not a good idea to paint everyone the same.

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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. The people in California are rich and white. The people in
Louisiana were poor and black.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. So the people at potrero are rich... you fucking kidding me right?
eat the meme, and they win.

The people at Julian are rich... ok whatever

Look one more time... people are NOT rich here... there are some people who are... but most of the folks are middle and working class folks.

And you Sir, are playing into the meme
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Some.
Yes, classim and racism exist and cause problems. Not all classism is backed by racism, but yes they are related often.

But no. Not all people in CA are rich and white. Not all people in LA are poor and black.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. True.
But New Orleans was left to die because of the perception that it was only poor, black people. I know that people all over the country (the world even) tried to help us. Their efforts were blocked.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. The point is PEOPLE ARE STILL TYRING TO HELP
and it does matter in this day and age who is in charge.

Bush and his cronies benefit from the lack of response there, but here... two words: Duncan Hunter
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I came, with other people from all across the country.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Trust me. Each and every one of us
appreciate your help. But, I met many who came to help who told stories of how those in charge tried to stop them. Medical people said they were told that their services weren't needed and so on.
This is the reason many of us believe that TPTB did not/does not care about what happens to New Orleans.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I tried to volunteer with Red Cross, was told my medical services weren't needed
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 07:18 PM by uppityperson
I knew differently, esp from talking with people here. So I came and helped do mobile med clinics and distributed food. I came anyway and yes, my estimation of Red Cross dropped severely. I met some decent RC people, 1 guy was having a hard time because he'd been trained in food prep and was running a shelter. I guess I just got fed up and came anyway. Yes, those "in charge" said all was fine. I was cynical before, it didn't help.

Edited to add that I was lucky in that I was able to get across the country, that I was able to leave my job, that I was able to leave my family, that I was able to hook up with VFP group that took stuff/established a camp after Camp Casey. I was lucky and rich enough to be able to do all that. And uppity enough to not take no for an answer. Though I was stopped at going into/through NO/parts of NO. The NtlGuard let us go places, the Police and Blackwater stopped us.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. You have no idea how low my opinion of the ARC is
and for god sakes I have worked with a national society

But the ARC is a good example of what happens when you politicize emergency response

In fact, the ARC should have gone to the Dome and given the middle finger to the people manning the road blocks.

I know I have done that... and I told this to an ARC person to his face... hell quoted from the conventions that are supposed to govern how any national society responds

By the way... my hat's up to you
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Where did you establish the camp?
New Orleans, Chalmette?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Covington at first, later Slidell, some ended up in NOLA, some in
Algiers, later also in Chalmette too (EC) and Buras and other places. We got calls to come to Chalmette, but couldn't when I was there (Police blocked us). I got to go into NOLA for my birthday present. It was scary. And very very very sad and quiet. Saw animal control, black SUVs, NtlGuard, Police, a few contractors and a few civilians. Met a woman at "bywater food kitchen" who later died after being mugged.

I found out recently that a F-5 tornado missed me by 200 ft when I was a toddler, which made how it post-Katrina affected me make more sense.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. When were you in Slidell?
Galatas Lane off of Bayou Liberty, Right?

Were you there for the Katrina/Veterans March,? Cindy Sheehan was there at the time?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
60. Bayou Liberty indeed.
I worked with Niki out of Covington, kept in contact, went back down 2006 with a couple teens. I missed the march and Cindy there though. Are you there, see by your profile you're in Slidell.

We worked with EC, ARNO, helped sheetrock a house, help deconstruct one (ripped up flooring), cooked, cleaned, etc. Did we meet?
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Were you there before or after the March?
If you were there after the March, you probably met me. I 'discovered' the Camp when they advertised about the Katrina/Veterans March. I let them use my van to transport the kids back and forth to their projects. I also had the crew over to the house a few times for a little R & R. Skinner and a couple of the guys cleared my yard of the Katrina debris.

I've only been back a couple of times since Niki left. I think the Camp is still there. They've offered housing for the Oct 27th March.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. End of March/first of April time. Last I heard Gordon had the camp.
had 2 teens with me. At BLRC were Niki & Ken, little Niki, 1 guy from HAWC, couple other guys, another woman, sorry, names elude me. Couple fuzzy pictures (new camera in shaky hands):



We saw Jesse Jackson and Rev Sharpton at the church in NOLA


April blog http://healthcareforpeace.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_archi...
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. I was at the Church that day.
In fact we were sitting right next to the podium next to the Reverends. The band was awesome!
I'm certain you met me. There's Skinner in the top photo. Looks like Nikki from the back. Can't remember the other names.

Yes, I think Gordon is still there.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. I loved your Slidell pictures.
BTW, St Genevieve, the rectory everything is gone except the Cafeteria. I don't know what they did with the steeple. They are planning to rebuild (wait for it) SOON. And we're waiting.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. You are right about the federal government
and you will see your story repeat in san diego

The people in charge of the government, as in the FEDS, don't care.

If they cannot translate this to power, they don't give a shit

And it is high time people get this... it is us who will have to take care of ourselves... becuase these folks DON'T beleive in the basic functions of government
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. We didn't evacuate.
We survived Katrina with minimum damage, as we did not have flood water. Katrina was a powerful storm, but it was the levee break that destroyed the City.

It was at least a week before we saw anything that looked like Government. Immediately after the storm we (my neighborhood) began to look after each other. We knew we were on our own. But, we thought it was because there was no communication, we couldn't even begin to think that TPTB didn't care.
No sign of government help, but about two days after the storm, I saw two Hispanic guys with Halliburton shirts. I couldn't believe it. As far as I knew, there were no Hispanics in this area at all before the storm. I wondered how did they get here if "official help" cannot get here. And Halliburton was here to 'help', but not the folks who get my tax money.

What I'm trying to say is our community helped each other as well as we could. Ordinary citizens like uppityperson were leaving their families to help. Trucks were rolling in from all over the country before the government showed up. We did the best that we could without government help. But, I can still tear up when I think of that same government turning away much needed help. Lives could have been saved. There's no excuse!



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Disaster Capitalism
read the book

Will explain all of this to you

But people did care

People care right now

And what gets me is that folks believe we don't care

We do

And as to the government, I know for a fact that some folks were trying very hard to get help in... and were as frustrated as you... and still are as frustrated as you...

But read on disaster capitalism. The next experiement, with a slightly different emphasis, will be San Diego
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. Hey,
Don't get me wrong. We KNEW that the citizens cared. It also became painfully obvious that the government was content to let us die.
I remember when the government said they couldn't get to us and the folks in Chalmette told the story about the Canadians knocking on the door.

The point I was trying to make, there are those who've implied that it was so bad for us because we sat around and waited for government help. And yes, some people had to sit on roofs to wait for help. But, the last time I checked, we (including the people on the roof) paid taxes so that we as American citizens could get help in times of peril. We pay taxes so that we should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers. (And thank Heavens for the kindness of strangers) Our citizens suffer while our taxes fund this clusterF***.

Personally, this fire disaster is giving me flashbacks. Knowing that others are suffering and there's not much that you can do to alleviate it, that is frustrating.



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Truly I understand
But the whole point on this is that folks should stop blaming the victims (and we have had plenty of this) whether it is NOLA or SoCal or the next disaster.

That is the whole damn point

The enemy, and yes, there is an enemy, is not our fellow americans, but the people who currently have their paws on the levers of power and who will NOT let go.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
49. I am a native Californian and not all Californians are rich and white
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 11:12 PM by Blue State Native
Get a clue.
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
53. Are you calling the people living on the 10 Indian reservations in San Diego County "rich and white"
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
65. $43,518 is "rich"? 29.5% white... per US Census:
U.S. Census Bureau

Los Angeles County, California

Median household income, 2004 $43,518

Black persons, percent, 2005 9.7%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2005 1.1%
Asian persons, percent, 2005 13.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2005 0.3%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2005 1.7%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2005 46.8%
White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2005 29.5%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. It was all luck that San Diego did well
The Mayor has stated he had no plan to put people in the stadium. He winged it.

No one should take credit for anything going on in SD. There are lots of problems and lots of planning that did help - but Qualcomm was not planned and is 100% luck.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The Q was in the plans
has been for decades... ;Seen the plan

Granted, Sanders didn't come up wiht it... but it was in the plan...

And even if he winged it, IT WORKED

We are not going to bury hundreds, if not outright thousands of people

And that is becuase the reverse 911 worked, and people listened
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. He was on channel 7 todays saying it was not planned N/T
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. If he says so
:-)

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Of course disaster responses will be compared, hopefully learned from.
Comparing responses does not mean simply saying 1 is worse, 1 better, but looking at what has been done, what worked, what didn't. It should not be to claim superiority, but to look, learn, and hopefully prepare.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Andt that is the point
peiople are falling into the they are rich meme, instead of going, why didn't ours work and yours did?
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes I notice that happening on DU
When someone dies, or has a tragedy, or there is a disaster, people will often discuss it in political terms, and then other people get offended. But it seems like on DU, we discuss things in real time, so this will continue to happen.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The problem is that they are missing the huge point of why
we have had such differences... and not seeing the tree for the forest
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. I missed all the bad-wishes-for-rich-people threads, thankfully, but the o.p. bothers me almost as
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 07:21 PM by UTUSN
much:

********QUOTE********

.... Duncan Hunter is not only a pug (and a candidate for President) but was the Armed Services Committee Chairman and right now the ranking member... (that translates into power and an ability to call in favors)

Local attitudes are also different... especially when it comes to the police. And yes, we have racism, but the local police departments, have been fighting against that for now two decades...

And a working tax base

And plans that have been in the shelves for (in some cases decades) ....

...(from a later post by the o.p. in the thread: ) ...and the people listened.

************UNQUOTE**************


What we have here is, "Local attitudes" and "people listened" and "a working tax base" and the foresight of "plans" and in sync political connections.

What this adds up to is old "attitudes" explaining the success of the U.S., Canada, and Northern Europe as the White/Protestant/work-ethic vs the decrepitude of the nations of color with their backward religions and lack of foresight and laziness.

What the o.p. might as well be saying is that different regions will have varying success based on their own cultural background. Wouldn't correlating DNA to success be just as valid?


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. You may be annoyed
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 06:39 PM by nadinbrzezinski
but we do have a working tax base

And it has nothing to do with DNA, but a lot to do with how local power structures form.

I have dealt with power structures...

And yes, it matters...

By the way... expect the San Diego, almost brilliant initial response, to go to hell once the LOCAL power structure gets to work here
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Not "annoyed" (much less envious) of the working tax base, but
disturbed at the potential meaning in the list of things in the quotation. And GRATEFUL that I didn't offend you because my vague memory and impression is that you and I agree(?) on other things over the years? (Many DU handles are very familiar, but I can't pinpoint most of them in terms of opinions.)

I'm just hoping those potential implications don't mean what they just might mean.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You read more into them than there is
what is real is that we do have diferent ways that power structures work around the country

And this disaster is one way to wrap our head around it

San Diego hates taxes. It still has something of a working tax base because previous generations have not let the scorch eath policy fully take those services away

But once this is over, you can bet they will try

And I will have to remind people... your house is still up becuase you paid them taxes all these years

It has nothign to do with DNA, and far more to do with history and sociology.

And it is high time we start looking at this as systemic and find ways to correct the systemic problems

By the way... now that the disaster has become a political football, wanna bet it will go down that yellow brick road many other disasters have since the Junta took over?

By the way... it will be good... my cynical mind working here... but some people need to see their prefered party does not give a shit about them (Yes talking about those who voted for Hunter, Issa and Bilbray)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
28. Here's the problem with the OP
no distinction is made between comparisons made by disaster preparedness experts and the media. From what I understand, the media has been making some pretty odious comparisons. The other problem is the magnitude of disasters. Earl's post from another thread:

As of yesterday afternoon:

Four major fires ripping across San Diego County have burned at least 263,000 acres and destroyed or damaged 1,750 homes and 100 businesses. More than 500,000 people have been told to evacuate.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20071023-1502 -...


October 2005

How big is the challenge? The American Red Cross estimates that more than 350,000 homes were destroyed by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, while an additional 146,000 had major damage. Overall, 850,791 housing units were damaged, destroyed or left inaccessible because of Katrina.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2005-10-0 ...

It's absolutely dreadful for the people who have lost their homes and belongings to the fires, but there's no comparison between this and Katrina.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. They aren't equal, not at all, no way. BUT to compare what happened is good.
To look at what is happening is also good. I think people are getting hung up on what does "compare" mean (are they equal or can we compare the response).
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. perhaps you missed my points?
I said it was good for disaster preparedness experts to compare, bad for the media to do so. The media is painting an ugly picture in their comparisons. And of course, as Earl pointed out, the magnitude of Katrina was so much greater- and that's a good comparison to make.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. No, I was agreeing and adding on.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. I agree and there is another distinction between the disasters....

the neighborhoods hit in NOLA have existed for decades. Many (not all) of the neighborhoods devastated in the fires are relatively new. While what happened to these families is devastating, people should think twice about what often happens in this type of terrain. One could argue that living below sea level on the coast is also a mistake, but technology exists to prevent future disasters.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R!
Rock on Nadinbrzezinski! I always appreciate your insights. :toast:

Julie
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. Did you have a point?
It's difficult to tell, the post is dis-organized and pretty much incoherent. I think you're trying to say Bush is wrong with people or something, I don't know.
Carry on.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
46. major difference: earthquake preparedness
As Californians, we are reminded constantly that an earthquake could happen at any time... with fires/floods at least we get a warning and are already "programed" to get the hell out of Dodge before we become crispy/fishlike... from my own experience, the warning systems work fairly well.

In the case of the Oakland Hills fire, the combination of narrow, winding streets, high winds, and lack of water pressure didn't allow people to get out fast enough.

Political systems did play a role, but I think the effects will be seen mostly in the aftermath phase- whether homes get rebuilt, zoning gets changed, etc. Knowing how well our local governments "work", this might be interesting, but not entertaining...well, maybe only slightly entertaining.

California is indeed the land of fruits and nuts, and most are to be found in governmental positions...

(NorCal native, part of family here since 1908)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Yep, looking at the pantry where my disaster food is stored
and the water I got

We are ready

And as you said, it will be in the post phase where things will get ugly

What bugs me is the many folks who seem a little angry that the toilets worked at the Q

Or for that matter that these folks have these expensive houses (it is the market, locally)

I live here... and I cannot expect for our board of supervisors and mayor, who have done a great job in the critical phase, to privatize the whole thing...

Ah the fun will begin once the cameras are OFF
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #48
67. I'm not angry that things worked well at the Q, I'm pissed that they didn't in NOLA.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Here is the rub
so is the rest of the country
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. knr
:thumbsup: :yourock:
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
50. What I would rant off about is only
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 11:30 PM by Jack Sprat
your disassociation from the politics of the day and natural disasters. Yes, there is most definitely a correlation between the denial of global climate change and the failure to enact changes to prevent environmental disaster from now until generations to come. I agree that you have some points when talking about local theatrics over assigning blame to individuals of one party or the other, regarding emergency response and readiness. But, I assume that you are not denying that recent disasters have no correlation to climate change and the virtual refusal of the Bush Admin and the Republicans in Congress to acknowledge it, much less confront it with planning, regulation, and legislation to reverse its' consequences in the near and distant future. Not while they live and breathe. Forget it. There is my rant.

I love California and the people and have not made the class distinctions that you are talking about, so that's not where I am coming from. For anyone to deny that the New Orleans residents did not confront a much more severe set of problems because of their ethnicity or class, is not being realistic. Many of them could not flee because they had no transportation, both black and white. To this day, I have heard them blamed for their conditions, pre and post Katrina.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. There is a correlation
and why I said one reason this is handled the way it is... truly it is one US Congressman who is the ranking member of the armed services committee...

That is the nexus

And global warming... if this was ONLY one incident, they'd have a point... but we have a pattern... and their refusal to see what is going on globally is a problem

And the dirty poo has started here.

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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
71. Agree and we do have evidence
of the changing global climate now and it is being ignored. There were not precedents before. Prior to Katrina, Hurricane Camille was probably the strongest storm of the century, in 1969. On Saturday evening before the early Monday arrival of Katrina, I met an old man bicycling on the beachfront in Waveland and asked him if he and his wife were preparing to evacuate. He told me that they were on fixed incomes and did not have the money to leave for a hotel for an indefinite period of time and that they had ridden out Hurricane Camille at the same house. No one anticipated the wall of water that was being pushed by Katrina's winds in the distance. We all knew it was covering the entire Gulf in size, but the winds were not as strong as Camille. Had we had some precedent in this new kind of storm, we would not have wasted our times boarding up windows of our homes and businesses. Hurricanes were not some new phenomena to the Gulf of Mexico. Had we known the intensity of what was coming in the way of giant surges of water moving far inland with Katrina, we would have forced neighbors like this elderly couple to evacuate with the rest of us. Thousands of the New Orleans residents, who were not monetarily able to evacuate, could have been rescued by friends and relatives who lived elsewhere. Tsunamis in Indonesia, heatstrokes in France, historical climate highs reached all over the globe, floods all summer in the midwest, droughts in the east, and my air conditioner running today in the Appalachians all foretell a growing pattern of catastrophes to come. The debate over global warming is long over. We are living it now.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
51. Yes, that would be the 72 hours that the White House knew
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 11:16 PM by sfexpat2000
the levees had breeched and warned no one?

Sorry. I'm so relieved that San Diego is doing well. (My godfather is there and safe, thank something.)

But the fact that a black city was allowed to drown and die can't be attributed to incidentals. There had to be major cultural agreement that it was just okay for those people to suffer that way. For Black Water to get in but not the Red Cross. Arms but not water?

Sorry, nadin, no sale.

San Diego will be up and running long before the Gulf Coast is.

And, that's our collective shame.



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. I'm not sure it will be up and running
given that FEMA already is starting to sell people down

Sorry... if the message is not sinking

Perhaps it is my writing...

But stop blaming the victims of disasters... and start placing blame where it has to be placed.

And it is not wiht those "rich folks" of Potrero or Ramona, or even the middle class in Saber Springs, or Rancho Bernardo.

It is time we start pointing to those who are practicing DISASTER CAPITALISM

And yes, there may be a bright point to this... people have not built from the Cedar fire, and I am sure you didn't know this... this will compound this... so many of those folks will start having second thoughts about their politics, and hopefully those who never vote and are progressive now will do that
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
54. Two big differences between Katrina and San Diego:
1. It is easy to get around San Diego County, almost all the roads are open except those in active fire areas and those areas which are evacuated. It's pretty hard to get around a flooded city to provide aid.

2. How much could New Orleans residents really do to protect their houses from a flood? Build a wall around each house? Not likely. San Diego residents have had 4 years since the cataclysmic Cedar Fire to prepare their properties by REMOVING THE FUEL (dry vegetation) within 100 feet of their homes. The people who didn't do that are the ones losing their homes.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. Actually there are people who did that who still lost their homes
doing that only helps you

As I said, perhaps if we had an 8.0 in the Richter scale and wholesale infrastructure failure people would be happy.
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. You're right, but the probability of your home burning goes way down if you clear the land.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Yes it does, depends on how hot the firestorm is
how well fire proofed the house is, a fair ammount of luck, and whether you remembered to close all windows and doors before getting the hell out of dodge

Reality is... from the POV of emergency response I wil give them an A- for the first 72 hours

Now that we have all the VIPs involved, that will go quickly down to anywhere from D to Fs, becuase they will try every trick in the book

And those tricks will NOT be in front of any camera.

:-(

So many here will keep thinking them rich californios had it easy... while they will have similar problems as people in the Gulf Coast

Insurance

Reconstruction

Housing

Food

Work

The usual...

As well as possibly the psycological issues that come out after the fact

Been to many of these dances... and seen it

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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Many people never really recovered from the Cedar Fire 4 years ago, and
my friend Rob and his family lost their house in the Normal Heights fire on June 30, 1985, and Rob lost his brand new Jeep, and the family split up and was never really a family again after that. I don't think Rob has ever really recovered from it. Suddenly losing your house can send your whole life into a tailspin.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Exactly and why I take umbrage at how many folks around these parts
have been making the comments they have been making... about how easy we have had it over here

Yes, most folks will be going home by oh Friday

The fires will be out by mid november

And the country will move on

But a victim, is a victim, is a victim... I don't care how much money they've got

And your friend.. Normal Heights is not rich... I'd argue not even middle class, but lower middle class, hell working class.

I'm sorry about your friend and his family... any disaster can and does wreck lives
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
68. I agree with all you said. It's ridiculous that people here are

so ignorant of what is really going on. What happened to New Orleans was tragic and the government at all levels failed the people. It was horrible and the people are still being kept out of their homes in the Ninth Ward by Blackwater troops, so it seems gentrification is a goal there.

What is happening in California is no picnic, either, but government services are much better. We should be glad of that, not angry that people are being saved and thinking it's a class issue. Everybody in California is not rich, neither are all Californians white.

The lesson to be learned by comparing the two disasters is for people everywhere to make sure their own state is prepared for a major disaster.

Make sure your family is prepared, too, and realize that you probably won't be able to take pets to shelters. People are criticizing California pet owners for leaving their pets at home, as they were told to do on radio and television. I guess they should have checked with DU first to see if it was OK. :shrug:
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
69. Excellent post. Thank you.
A lot of the people losing their homes bought them years ago when they were much cheaper. Sure, some mansions have been destroyed but I'm seeing what look like many average homes as well.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
72. why is the bar Katrina and not the FEMA from the Clinton admin???
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Becuase lousy emergency response stays in people's minds
not good ones

Hell. its been what over twenty years, and people still talk of the mess that was the Mexico City Quake
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. For the same reason that O'Leary's cow
cannot be blamed for the sinking of the Lusitania. jmo
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TimBean Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
77. natural disaster =/= natural disaster
What we have here are two very different natural disasters.
You will have different responses to a large fire and a hurricane.
That's why.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. What bugs me is the people's reaction
and how they have swalloed the meme that we are all living high on the hog
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TimBean Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Some people have weird ideas about money
Not everyone in Southern California has lots of money, and just because someone has a lot of money does not mean they are a bad person.

Victims of the fires deserve our sympathy just like victims of Hurrican Katrina, just like anyone in te world, rich or poor, going through a natural disaster.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
79. I have compassion for anyone who suffers loss. Some suffer loss longer than others.
The only reason for the distinction is money.

It requires incredible human strength to muddle through chronic suffering due to poverty.
I can't imagine anyone who would fail to acknowledge that fact unless they have NEVER suffered hard knocks. I can imagine those who CAN'T or WON'T acknowledge the differences either because they've had a kid-gloved life or they can hate anyone who fails to reflect their perception of the entitled ones.

:shrug:

I was among those who thought highly of themselves for quite some time during my life. Nowadays, I only keep company with people like that, when necessary.
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