Remember how outraged we were by Mean Jean Schmidt's comments about

[cali]

Murtha? That was her opinion that she expressed, just as it was Stark's opinion that he expressed. You can agree with opinion, but you cannot exalt it as some universal truth.

Now, I'm sorry that Stark had to apologize, but it was easy to predict it would happen. Once you start making personal slams on the floor of the House, you're gonna get hammered. And yeah, we hammer them too for comments like that.

The trick, if you're a congress critter is to edge as close to that line as possible while not stepping over it into the shit. I will grant you that repukes seem to be awfully good at that.

Edited to add: Here's why she wasn't censured:

"The chamber exploded in boos and catcalls from Democrats, and within minutes Schmidt had withdrawn her words and sent a note of apology to Murtha. But waters were still roiling when she went home Saturday to start a two-week congressional recess."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/22/AR2005112201699.html

[Bluebear]

1. I forget, was Schmidt censured for that?

[Coexist]

9. NO. she apologized or would have faced censure, though.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Jean_Schmidt#Rep._John_Murtha_.2F_.22Coward.22_controversy

I like the way the Brits do it - all fighting and name calling, right to the PMs face.

[cali]

10. I don't think so.

As I recall the dems tried to bring a censure motion to the floor and the 'pukes didn't allow it- and that's what should have happened here, and is a good example of Pelosi's weak leadership. On the other hand she apologized more quickly.

[BonnieJW]

2. But was mean jean censured?

I don't recall a resolution censuring her.

[rodeodance]

7. the vote tabled the Stark centure attempt.

[cali]

26. She withdrew her words and apologized

within hours; thus no censure.

[rodeodance]

3. He made it against the Comm. in Chief----like the Petraeus ad----it was considered

a slight against the troops. What a whacko place we/Dems are in.

[madinmaryland]

4. Did she apologize to Murtha for her comments?

NOT!

:grr:

[cali]

17. Yes. And she withdrew her words

from the record, shortly after she spoke them.

"The chamber exploded in boos and catcalls from Democrats, and within minutes Schmidt had withdrawn her words and sent a note of apology to Murtha. But waters were still roiling when she went home Saturday to start a two-week congressional recess."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/22/AR2005112201699.html

[babylonsister]

5. I can't remember; did she apologize? nt

[Coexist]

11. yes - and she sent him a note of apology.

[varkam]

6. Did she get "hammered"?

Hmmm?

[_testify_]

8. Yeah, it's JUST LIKE that.

Except for the part where Schmidt doesn't have to apologize.

We only make our own apologize, is what it looks like...

[cali]

20. Are you just making stuff up for the hell of it?

The chamber exploded in boos and catcalls from Democrats, and within minutes Schmidt had withdrawn her words and sent a note of apology to Murtha. But waters were still roiling when she went home Saturday to start a two-week congressional recess.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/22/AR2005112201699.html

[_testify_]

33. I stand corrected.

My bad.

[spanone]

12. when is the last time a rethuglicon apologized?

[cali]

22. Schmidt did.

The chamber exploded in boos and catcalls from Democrats, and within minutes Schmidt had withdrawn her words and sent a note of apology to Murtha. But waters were still roiling when she went home Saturday to start a two-week congressional recess.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/22/AR2005112201699.html

[spanone]

25. she did not aplogize in public, on the house floor. she sent a note.

[cali]

27. she withdrew her words within

a very brief period of time.

[Richard Steele]

13. Yeah, because this was EXACTLY the same.

:eyes:

[cali]

24. Actually, it's remarkably similar

care to tell me how it was different?

[Whisp]

40. Jean lied, Stark didn't. a little bit of a difference. nt

[cali]

43. LOL!

they were both opinions. Period. You agree with one, as do I, and disagree with the other. That doesn't make one universally true. Lies and truth actually don't figure into this situation. And you can't, of course, know with any certainty that what Stark said was true- because it was opinion.

[Whisp]

48. sure, and all the numbers of the dead in Iraq are just 'opinions'.

unfortunately Stark used the word' amusement' which is just cloudy enough for some to pounce on and ignore the real jist of what he was saying and compare it to something like this jean example which doesn't even come Close to fair comparison IMO. I get what he said loud and clear, tho - but don't let me keep you from your thesarausing.

[Richard Steele]

67. "Some people say" it's remarkably similar.

nm

[truebrit71]

14. Not the same thing. (Full of) Schmidt called Murtha a coward...

..demonstrably false...

Stark said that kids were being killed for the pResident's amusement...I don't know about you, but the giggling war-criminal in the WH seems pretty fucking happy with himself anytime he's on the teevee....so what he said is not demonstrably false...

[JuniperLea]

28. He loves being the war president

What is war but killing? So, if he loves being a war president, it stands to reason he loves this war.

[CrispyQ]

30. The puppet was pretty fucking amused at the press corps dinner,

looking for those WMD. Didn't seem to concerned about the soldiers well being & lives while he's with the haves & the have mores. What a fucking asshole. The media should be playing that little escapade over & over -- oh that's right, we don't have a media.

Everyday more outrages & more lives lost. Arghh!!! I am so fucking sick & tired of this shit!!! :banghead:

[cali]

31. If you can't see that both are opinions,

you're not looking. And she actually said: "Cowards cut and run..." Disgusting, but not a direct accusation.

[Hissyspit]

15. From wikipedia:

"Coward" controversy

On November 18, 2005, the House debated a Republican-sponsored resolution, H. Res. 572, calling for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq. It was prompted by the call of John P. Murtha, Jr., a Democrat from Pennsylvania, who introduced H.J. Res. 73, which called for the redeployment of American forces as soon as possible. In response, Armed Services Committee chairman Duncan L. Hunter of California introduced H. Res. 572, which the Republican leadership admitted was intended to demonstrate that calls for troop withdrawal were "out of the mainstream." Democrats in turn roundly criticized the Hunter resolution as a sham that misstated Murtha's position.

During debate on adopting the rule for debating the resolution, H. Res. 563, Schmidt said:

Yesterday I stood at Arlington National Cemetery attending the funeral of a young Marine in my district. He believed in what we were doing is the right thing and had the courage to lay his life on the line to do it. A few minutes ago I received a call from Colonel Danny Bubp, Ohio Representative from the 88th district in the House of Representatives. He asked me to send Congress a message: Stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message, that cowards cut and run, Marines never do. Danny and the rest of America and the world want the assurance from this body — that we will see this through.<27>

Schmidt's remarks threw the House into an uproar. Many Democrats saw it an attack against Murtha, a 38-year Marine Corps veteran. After she said "cowards cut and run, Marines never do," angry Democrats nearly drowned out her words. Victor F. Snyder of Arkansas demanded that Schmidt's remarks be "taken down." Under this disciplinary procedure, the House clerk would have re-read Schmidt's words and the presiding officer (at the time, Michael K. Simpson of Idaho) would have ruled whether they were parliamentary.<28> Martin T. Meehan of Massachusetts screamed, "You guys are pathetic! Pathetic!" Harold E. Ford, Jr. of Tennessee charged to the Republican side of the chamber, waving his finger at Schmidt and yelling, "Say it to Murtha!" (or "Say Murtha's name!" depending on the source). Ford had to be restrained by David R. Obey of Wisconsin.

After 10 minutes, Schmidt asked for and received permission to withdraw her remarks and apologized to Murtha.<29> Had she not done so, she would have been barred from speaking again for the rest of the day unless the House gave her permission by motion or unanimous consent.<30>

...and don't forget:

Plagiarism accusation

On September 22, 2006 the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) reported Schmidt published "an op-ed about Medicare Part D in the Community Press and Recorder that is almost identical to a press release issued by Congresswoman Deborah Pryce (R-Columbus) on July 10 2006."

[spanone]

21. she withdrew her remarks and sent a letter of apology. she did not apologize on the floor

....Schmidt had withdrawn her words and sent a note of apology to Murtha.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/22/AR2005112201699.html

[TornadoTN]

16. I seem to recall lines of Republicans foaming at the mouth supporting her

And they were "incensed" at the notion that we would even think of censuring her.

I don't see many Democrats lining up to support Stark. Sure, he might have used a better word, but the truth sometimes isn't pretty and doesn't sound or look like unicorns and freshly fallen snow.

[madfloridian]

18. Yes, her party defended her.

.

[quiet.american]

19. The problem is, the stark truth (to use a phrase) is there for all to see.

It's one thing to lash out at Murtha as a coward, and another to state what has been demonstrated over and over again -- not the least of which is Bush yukking it up about how maybe the WMDs were hidden under his desk. And why did he do that. For his amusement.

[TornadoTN]

23. Additionally, where was *'s apology after his WMD joke-fest?

Anybody remember the WH correspondents dinner where he laughed and joked about not finding WMD's (his pretext to war, remember)?

[cali]

34. I was drawing a specific parallel

between two congressional reps. That's all.

[TornadoTN]

35. I know, but there's an awful lot of distance between even those two parallels

One party backed Schmidt up - they just chose to distance themselves from the word "Coward". They even said they supported her right to say it and that the sentiment was correct.

The other party caved in so as not to appear to be confronting the President or the war.

Guess which one is which?

Sorry, I'm just frustrated with this.

[JuniperLea]

29. Not opinion at all...

Bush LOVES being the "War President"... war being what it is... you can't love being a war president without loving war itself.

[cali]

32. Again, that's opinion. It's one I agree with, but it's still

not a statement of fact.

[JuniperLea]

55. So, you think Bush doesn't love being war president? eom

[me b zola]

36. I recall a thread a few days ago

...that stated that all opinions are not equal...

Schmidt, a chicken hawk calls Murtha, a combat veteran with over 30 years of honorable service in uniform, a coward.

Congressman Stark states the truth, that the AWOL sociopath in the WH (you know, the guy who tortured animals as a child, joked about a condemned woman's pleas to live, who made a tape fucking joking about the WMDs that soldiers were dying trying to find--and let me add that he knew full well that it was a fool's mission since he knew that there were never WMDs in Iraq. The guy who snickers during press conferences at the mention of war and blowing things up) is amused with the violence and death that is occurring.


Your thread illistrates how not all opinions are equal.

[cali]

37. Of course all opinions aren't equal

but, these two were both personal observations, and not rooted in fact. Stark actually has no way of knowing, despite bushco's revolting past, that he went to war for "amusement", and certainly Schmidt's comments had no basis in fact.

[renie408]

38. Did Bush really torture animals when he was a kid?? Cause, that's a REALLY bad sign. n/t

[incapsulated]

39. Did her own party threaten to censure her??

No, they didn't, they supported her.

Jeez.

[cali]

41. She was forced to WITHDRAW her words within minutes

do you understand what that means?

[incapsulated]

45. "Forced"?

No, she thought better of it when she heard all the boos and catcalls.

Her party didn't demand she apologize or face censure.

Nor did she get up beg forgiveness on the floor of the house.

She just bought a fucking clue, Murtha is a war hero and it was going to backlash on her bigtime.

[dave29]

42. What Pete Stark said was NOT opinion, it was Righteous Indignation

What Schmidt said was plain stupid.

[cali]

44. Sheesh. Take a

course on logic or critical thinking. Of course it was opinion, a classic case.

[dave29]

51. mmk.

Please continue exlaining to us how what Stark said was equivalent to what Schmidt said. In her case she attacked a war veteran. In Starks case he attacked a war profiteer.

I'm all ears

[cali]

53. I can't help you. You don't seem able to discern the difference

between opinion and fact. Again, I agree with Stark and don't agree with Schmidt, but that doesn't alter a thing

[dave29]

58. I recognize bull-headed equivocation, does that help?

While I appreciate that you have given up on me, I would still like an explanation of how what Stark said was the equivalent of what Schmidt said. How somehow the Democrats are hypocrits for supporting Stark, and demanding Schmidt apologize. You used a bad example to illustrate your opinion. Face it.

Sure my discussion of what Cheney said was not logically consistent since it just happened to be said while Congress was not in session. I understand you are trying to tell me I am full of shit. I'm just trying to point out you are more full of shit.

[LSK]

46. EXCEPT HER OPINION WAS NOT TRUE

IT HAD NO BASIS IN REALITY.

A Vietnam veteran who always supported the military being called a coward

vs

A president who never served who sent troops to a needless war who continues to keep them there even thou everyone else says bring them home.

[cali]

50. Even putting an opinion in Caps doesn't

make it fact.

[LSK]

52. well I guess you never watch CSPAN

Because Republicans are rarely giving facts on the House floor. Should they be censured too?

Why do you always start arguments like this?

:wtf:

[devilgrrl]

47. What wasn't true about Stark's statements?

Why are we in Iraq?

The non-existent WMD's?

Avenging 9/11?

Osama Bin Laden?

If Bush's isn't doing this for his amusement, then wtf are we there for?

[cali]

49. ooh, good.

Why are we in Iraq? Well, we can speculate, and we have some evidence, but ultimately what we offer will be opinion on that question. Personally, in accordance with the evidence, I think it was a combination of greed and hubris.

The answer to your last question is simple: Oil and profits for his corporate cronies, with a dash of revenge re pa bush, and an unhealthy dollop of ego. That's my opinion.

[devilgrrl]

54. So why wouldn't someone think that Bush is using the military like STRATEGO game pieces?

This war is a joke! And BFEE thinks it's funny. Deal with it!

[cali]

56. You're missing the point

It's all still opinion. Really, it's that simple.

[devilgrrl]

57. Yeah, well you're just going have to deal with how those "opinions" are worded.

And F' your "play it safe" bullshit! :nuke:

[cali]

59. LOL

hope you feel better. And it has zip to do with playing safe as you put it. it has to do with playing smart.

[devilgrrl]

60. Pfft! So tell us what "playing smart" is - oh wise one.

This I have to hear.

:rofl:

[dave29]

61. it would only be opinion

and therefore insignificant.

[truebrit71]

63. Oh oh!!! I know!! Pick ME!!!!

Playing Smart = kissing GOP ass

[devilgrrl]

65. That about sums it up - don't it?

:popcorn:

[malaise]

62. What about these ( courtesy of WilliamPitt)?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2089536&mesg_id=2089536


"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

- Ann Coulter, New York Observer, 08-26-02

"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day it's gonna happen? It's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

- Barbara Bush, said on 'Good Morning America' the day before the Iraq war started, New York Times, 01-13-03

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for."

- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual gay sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything. All of those things are antithetical to a healthy, stable, traditional family and that's sort of where we are in today's world, unfortunately. It all comes from, I would argue, the right to privacy that doesn't exist, in my opinion, in the United States Constitution."

- Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), Associated Press, 04-22-03

"I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious hurricanes, and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I were you. This is not a message of hate; this is a message of redemption. But a condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."

- Pat Robertson, speaking of organizers putting rainbow flags up around Orlando to support sexual diversity, Washington Post, 06-10-98. For the record, Orlando remains undestroyed by meteors.

"Environmentalists are a socialist group of individuals that are the tool of the Democrat Party. I'm proud to say that they are my enemy. They are not Americans, never have been Americans, never will be Americans."

- Rep. Don Young (R-AK), Alaska Public Radio, 08-19-96

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT), talking about President Clinton, as reported by journalist Steve Miner of KSUB radio who overheard his conversation, 11-01-98

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones, 08-95

"Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-18-95

"Emotional appeals about working families trying to get by on $4.25 an hour are hard to resist. Fortunately, such families do not exist."

- Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX), House Majority Whip, during a debate on increasing the minimum wage, Congressional Record, H3706, 04-23-96

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past - I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble - recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."

- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-08-92

"Probably nothing."

- Jeb Bush, during his losing 1994 bid for Florida Governor, when asked what he would do for black people, quoted by Salon on 10-05-02

"The homosexual blitzkrieg has been better planned and executed than Hitler's."

- Rep. William Dannemeyer (R-CA), The New Republic, 08-01-94

"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go together."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-21-93

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

- Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform, NPR Morning Edition, 05-25-01

"The fact of the matter is that this (increased American casualties) is a sign of the success of our operation, not its failure."

- Ralph Reed, GOP strategist, on MSNBC's program 'Hardball,' 10-28-03

"There are some who feel that, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, bring 'em on. We have the force necessary to deal with the situation."

- George W. Bush, Chicago Tribune, 07-03-03

"Quit looking at the symbols. Get out and get a job. Quit shooting each other. Quit having illegitimate babies."

- State Rep. John Graham Altman (R-SC), addressing African-American concerns about the 'symbol' of the Confederate Flag, New York Times, 01-24-97

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."

- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), emailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by the Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01

"NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a lesbian."

- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 12-03-97

"I'm the commander - see, I don't need to explain - I don't need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

- George W. Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

If you can believe it, there's even more here:

[truebrit71]

64. Those are all opinions too, right?

:eyes:

Stark was right
Schidt was wrong.

End of fucking story.

[malaise]

66. Bingo n/t