Why is it every damn time there's a wildfire, people must

[cboy4]

bring socioeconomics into the discussion?

My state is on fire right now, and I've read numerous insensitive remarks about how it's just a bunch of rich people losing their homes, especially in Malibu, so who cares.

I got into it with people who showed a complete lack of empathy over the people involved in the Lake Tahoe fire this summer because they were supposedly nothing but rich people living in vacation homes and they should have known better living in the forest.

Saying that all of the victims were rich, lived in second homes and could just simply buy what they lost was not only false; It was cruel.

Losing a home to a fire and being in a panicked situation of having to evacuate a wildfire, especially when it's dark out is terrifying.

Nobody who has never been through that will never know how it feels. Just like I could never know how it feels to be a tornado victim or a hurricane victim.

It doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor, natural disasters doesn't deserve to happen to anyone.

It's why I hate how socioeconomics is seemingly always brought up during wildfires in California.

It's beyond unfortunate, especially during the middle of the crisis.

"Thousands of Southern California homes could be at risk in coming days as powerful Santa Ana winds continue to stoke wildfires, fire officials said." http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fire22oct22,0,4878345.story?coll=la-home-center

And trust me, they don't all belong to rich people.

(Incidentally, I've heard of at least one DUer who spent today watering her roof and will probably not sleep tonight.)http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=7057275

[...of J.Temperance]

1. I'm sorry you're all going through this

I'll give your thread a vote....and I wish you good luck and I hope you all stay safe ;)


On Edit: Dammit spelling error....need more coffee *sigh*

[dysfunctional press]

2. natural disasters doesn't deserve to happen to anyone...

except those people who choose/insist on livivng in areas prone to natural disasters.

[cboy4]

4. Wow, I guess you can say the same thing about people

who live in Tornado Alley.



And all the people who live in hurricane areas.

Screw all of those people in New Orleans who chose to live below sea level.

Ha, QuestionAll?

[depakid]

7. Actually, you can say the same thing

If you live in Tornado alley, you'd be wise to have a shelter. It's also smart to be prepared if you live in a flood plain.... or below sea level (people had be warning for years what might happen to New Orleans).

Parts of California are the same way- if you live in a canyon or on a hillside full of brush- chances are that one day it will burn.

Chaparral is a fire climax community. Fires are supposed to happen- and so people shouldn't be surprised when they do. It's largely an artifact of property values and socioeconomic tendencies that people who tend to live in fire prone areas are wealthy.

It's not wealth that gets their houses burnt down- it the choice of where to live- or what sort of house to build.

[Hekate]

11. Amen, cboy. How dare human beings live on the planet Earth? Midwestern flood plains...

...where every time it floods there are interviews with quite ordinary folks who have rebuilt over and over again. With our tax dollars helping them out, incidentally, which is another reason the abandonment of New Orleans is so incomprehensible.

No Place Is Completely Safe From Mother Nature.

Eww. The judgmentalism and snobbery on this thread really give one pause, don't they?

Hekate

[girl gone mad]

16. Wait a second..

while I agree with the premise of this thread, I can't agree with that statement. Someone brought up tornado alley, but tornadoes are extremely rare in any one location in tornado alley. People can live lifetimes in tornado alley without ever even witnessing a tornado. It's almost unheard of for a town to be hit by a large tornado twice in the same century. In just the last two decades, these same Malibu neighborhoods have been threatened by fire two or three times. All available evidence tells us they will face these threats again in the near future.

Maybe no place is completely safe, but some are a heck of a lot less risky than others.

[stranger81]

76. as someone who grew up smack in the middle of tornado alley,

I can assure you your post is complete BS. Tornadoes are not "extremely rare" and I'd be hard pressed to name anyone I grew up with who hasn't seen a tornado up close and personal.

As for "almost unheard of for a town to be hit by a large tornado twice in the same century," ever hear of Andover, Kansas? McConnell Air Force Base? Udall Kansas? Norman OK? Haysville KS? Greenville KS?

Since it's based on bad facts, your decision to judge others for where they happen to live is just as poor.

[girl gone mad]

112. I grew up in tornado alley, too.

I didn't say tornadoes were rare, I said they were rare in any one locale. I stand by that statement. Most of the people living in tornado alley will never experience a tornado.

I never said tornadoes won't hit a place twice, just that it's rare.

You simply can't compare tornadoes to what's going on with these wildfires. Tornadoes don't damage millions of acres in a year, let alone in one single, heavily populated state.

[tandot]

146. I lived in tornado alley for 10 years and had storm damage to my house and/or car

every year.

You don't even need a tornado to have damage. I had plenty of damage with just straight wind gusts, heavy t-storms, and those nasty ice storms. We had part of the roof blown off more than once, trees falling on the house and the car, fences destroyed, windows blown out...

And don't forget the hail that can do that:

[girl gone mad]

151. That's anecdotal.

I've lived here 25 years and never had any kind of property damage from storms.

Even so, the hail damage and minor property damage that you've reported hardly compare to several hundred million+ dollar homes completely leveled by fire in the last couple of days. Most insurance policies require a high deductible which prevents them from even covering the types of minor storm repairs you've mentioned.

[tandot]

165. Anecdotal??? Here are some facts for you:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


more at link:

http://www.iii.org/media/facts/statsbyissue/homeowners/?table_sort_746408=6


As you can see, hail and wind damage isn't just a rare occurence. Besides, wild fires aren't restricted to CA. My sister almost lost her house in '06 when wild fires raced across Oklahoma:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10619217/

"Grass fires started by as little as a spark from a car or downed power lines have burned more than 600,000 acres across a drought-stricken stretch of Oklahoma, Texas and New Mexico in the past week and a half. The fires have destroyed at least 470 homes and killed five people."


But, the blame-the-victim-first-crowd just can't help themselves and just have to piss on a thread asking for empathy.


Have a nice and safe life.

[dysfunctional press]

26. people have to live with their choices...

is all i'm sayin.

and people who choose to live in areas prone to natural disasters shouldn't be surprised whenit happens.

[lapislzi]

45. There are areas NOT prone to natural disasters?

Where, pray tell, are these places? The east coast has hurricanes, heavy snows, and nor'easters. The midwest gets tornadoes and flooding. The intermountain west has fires and heavy snows. The west coast has fires, earthquakes, and landslides. There are droughts. There are floods. There is no place where natural disaster is an unknown occurrence.

Life is risky. Where's your compassion? All I'm hearing is judgment.

[dysfunctional press]

69. people have to adapt to live with their chosen environments

not try to adapt the environment to them.

house location, type of architecture, materials used- it's possible to build homes that can stand up better to whatever natural disasters an area is prone to.

but most people don't take anything into consideration except price, view, and immediate convenience for themselves.

no sympathy from me for people who build the wrong kind of house in the wrong place.

[LanternWaste]

173. ...except those whose finances make the choice for them, yes?

"but most people don't take anything into consideration except price, view, and immediate convenience for themselves."

...except those whose finances force the choice on them, yes? And aren't those most people?

[barb162]

90. There's a difference in degree that I think is lost here.

Big tornadoes and big snowstorms don't cause anywhere as much damage as big hurricanes or a bad earthquake. Natural disasters are much more commonplace in some areas than others. I think the question might be asked if people should be allowed to continue moving into high risk areas. And not all areas are high risk areas.

[Arugula Latte]

96. Don't forget volcanoes.

Especially in Hawaii and here in the Northwest, volcanoes are real threats. If Mt. Hood or Mt. Rainier ever blow ... :scared:

[kineneb]

127. don't forget Lassen, Shasta, and our local Konocti

volcanoes all, and none truly dead... most of NorCal owes its current geography to a combination of earthquake faults and volcanoes.

the geologist at the rockhounds' meeting told us the next place the magma could come up is within 5 miles of my house...

[misanthrope]

188. Volcanoes seem to be that safest on the list...

...since eruptions give tell-tale warning signs beforehand and they occur so infrequently, especially compared to atmospheric disasters. The Pacific Northwest might be the most disaster-free region of the country.

[Pathwalker]

65. I don't think we could all fit in Vermont & New Hampshire, though.

We now have tornadoes in October in mid-Michigan, which has never happened before that I know of - so even our once safe state is in danger now, thanks to Global warming.

[Baby Snooks]

6. Natural disasters happen everywhere...

There are few if any places in this country that are not prone to natural disasters but I think there is a point to be made with regard to the difference between the victims of Hurricane Katrina and the victims of the Malibu fires.

All the victims suffered through a traumatic event in which they lost their homes and a lifetime of memories. But that is the only thing they share as victims. The survivors of Katrina want to go home but have no homes to return to and no money with which to rebuild and many are still having their rent and utilities paid for by the government in other cities. They are, it appears, permanently displaced. The survivors of the Malibu fires will rebuild and either have another home somewhere else, many in equally expensive areas such as Beverly Hills or Bel-Air, or will lease another house in Malibu for $20,000 a month or so while they rebuild. Many victims of Katrina barely made $20,000 a year. Who do we feel worse for? Who should we feel worse for?

The fires in Southern California are affecting primarily wealthy people who can afford to live on the hillsides and in the canyons and on the beach in exclusive areas. Many would say that relatively speaking, they are still in better shape than many others who have been victims of a natural disaster. Victims all. But still there is a reminder of the disparity that exists in this country. And there is resentment. And perhaps misplaced in this but it is still there. Of all the fires, the media is concentrating on the fires in Malibu. As if to indicate that somehow because the financial loss is greater, the tragedy is also greater. It is not. Tragedy is tragedy.

Many stories in the media have focused on the Castle as it's known which was destroyed by the fire. It was a familiar landmark in Malibu. It was also a home. Which was also on the market for $17 million.

Would the attention by the media and the public reaction be the same if a fire swept through South Central Los Angeles instead of Malibu?

[Hekate]

10. Do you live in California? First, I know people whose modest community was taken out by a mudslide

It's called La Conchita, and about a dozen people were buried alive a number of years back. It's a funky beachside community that (shock, horrors) is NOT full of rich people.

And as to a fire in South Central -- yes, dammit. That is one densely populated area, and many lives are put at risk during fires -- and the media covers it, whether it's associated with a riot or not.

FIRES SPREAD. Fires hopscotch from tree to tree and roof to roof, and jump firelines and freeways. A fire that starts in one neighborhood or canyon SPREADS quite readily to other areas.

Good lord.

Hekate

[Baby Snooks]

15. Half my life is there

I've spent half my life in Los Angeles and I have great empathy for the victims of the fires. Wherever they are. They are all victims.

But there is the disparity and the disparity is often to be seen in the amount of media coverage of a natural disaster. There was little national media coverage of the mudslide in La Conchita. If it had happened in Malibu, it would have been covered by the networks and covered on an ongoing basis for a day or two. You have blips and barrages. Malibu is always a barrage in the media.

My real point is that the wealthy victims of natural disasters do survive. They rebuild their homes and their lives. The poor victims of natural disasters do not.

[havocmom]

48. Pretty much agree. And I lived in Southern Calif for over 25 years

Thinkin of the Baldwin Hills Dam break too. That was not pretty.

Yes, natural disasters happen, but some common sense about where one builds a home, if one has the resources to be picky, would go a long way toward lessening the problems more expensive colonies in Calif seem to have continually.

Fires in chaparral canyons will happen A LOT. And, since the plants have oily sap, the fires will be hot, and often explosive fires.

Homes on stilts, cantilevered off steep hillsides, overlooking water will meet up with erosion A LOT.

Lovely canyons below dams might just suffer serious flooding, especially in areas with a lot of earthquakes.

Homes on narrow strips of beach, will often be swallowed up by stormy seas.

Those things are pretty likely and it is generally the rich who build in those areas. In all the years I lived in the area, I saw hordes of them re-building in those areas... and re-building.... and rebuilding.

Lots of press. Lots of help from mortgage companies to go out and do the same sort of dumb thing over and over again...

And, having lived many years in Calif, I, too, have spent lots of time on roofs with hoses, in more normal neighborhoods. Lots of live embers and hot ash from those fires lifts and blows to areas not quite as posh.

When all the fire fighters are up in the canyons fighting for homes (and their own lives), and one of the two lone cops left in the flats comes through, announcing on his bull horn that if anyone's roof catches from all the live fire debris traveling for 5 miles in the fire created winds, there would be NO help to fight fires... Well, you get yer ass on the roof. And you send you brothers to perch on roofs of elderly neighbors. If one house would go, miles of them would go. People of more modest means have their houses very close together, out on the flats.

But most of the home destroyed in fires are more expensive, and in areas where it is simply unwise to build. And after fires, bare hillsides tend to slide if the winter rains come. Between the time of fire and slides, there is often a time of rodent and snake problems.

Bad site choices to begin with, then developers and well heeled consumers tend to not learn from experience. They keep doing it over and over.

Firemen should not have to keep risking their lives because so many people just LOVE living in places homes shouldn't be built.

[Hekate]

80. When you put it that way, havocmom, yes I agree.

And have said or thought much the same from time to time. I won't go live in one of those canyons myself, even if I could afford it.

Hekate

[barb162]

97. Why aren't houses in CA built with tin roofs or non combustible material?

Tile? Isn't that non flammable? When the fire risk is so great at this time of year, you'd think it would be mandatory.

[knight_of_the_star]

172. Actually a lot are

Fake shingle roofs are the norm in SoCal in fire-prone areas.

[Gelliebeans]

82. Here here

Santa Ana winds can whip up a fire out of no where. I have compassion for my fellow human beings regardless.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. "Who do we feel worse for? Who should we feel worse for?"

Why is it a contest? Why can't people have compassion for both?

I don't parcel out my compassion based on someone's status in life. Bad things happen can happen to anyone. My brother's wife died right after their baby was born. He's rich. Very rich. Should I have been less sympathetic to him because of that? He's also a liberal democrat.

[ronnykmarshall]

110. So when the fires jumps into the Hollywood hills

and then spreads to West Hollywood and my condo burns down ..... I should make sure the media isn't around?

Just want to get a heads up.

Don't want to "offend" anyone.

[bridgit]

8. if you're serious then you are a strange thinker...

[lligrd]

9. Every Place Is Prone To Natural Disasters

and if you believe differently, you are deluding yourself.

[Baby Snooks]

21. Living on the edge...

I have always marveled at how people in Los Angeles are always living on the edge of disaster. Fires, mudslides, earthquakes. But the Santa Monica Mountains are just so beautiful. There is nothing more spectacular than being in the mountains in Topanga Canyon and looking north into the Valley and east into Los Angeles and south along the coastline and watching the lights come on like twinkling lights on a Christmas tree as the sun sets. Especially after the Santa Ana winds have cleared the air. The Santa Ana winds. They clear the air but feed the embers. And then carry the embers for miles which start new fires.

People rebuild because it's so beautiful. You can't blame them for that. Or for accepting the risk every time they do so.

Still, there is the disparity. Everyone can enjoy the mountains. But not everyone can afford to live on the hillsides and in the canyons. And the wealth that does live on the hillsides and in the canyons is often quite alarming given the amount of poverty in the rest of Los Angeles.

Hopefully the winds will subside. Particularly in the San Diego area which is where the worse fires are.

[dysfunctional press]

28. and people have to learn how to live within their chosen environment

for instance- people who live in areas prone to natural wildfires should build houses out of fireproof materials- concrete comes to mind as a good choice- they should also REGULARLY clear all the brush and tinder that accumulates.

people who live in hurricane-prone areas should build round houses that have no flat exterior walls for the wind to go against

and so on.

i'm not going to waste any sympathy on people who build flammable houses in fire-prone areas.

[havocmom]

49. When I was young, many of those areas REQUIRED clay tile roofs

(fore runner to the concrete methods available now) There were lots of rules in communities about how and where homes could be built. There were lots of CC&Rs about vegetation and open space around homes. It didn't stop fires, but it did help cut down the property damage so fire fighters could be a bit more careful with their own hides.

Large scale sell out by local pols, taking developer $$ and changing all sorts of local restrictions so developers could make more $$ did not serve the state well.

Shot-crete construction works so much better for so many areas... but one really does enter a crap shoot when one builds anything in a canyon full of oily plants in a place with wicked winds you can just about make on calendars.

[cboy4]

72. Okay, well at least all of us are aware that there are

limits to your sympathy.

As if it's so gosh darn exhausting having sympathy for any human being who is suffering.

Incidentally, this is more than just about rich people living in "fire-prone" areas with you. I'm sure of it.

You seem very angry.

[UncleSepp]

79. Round houses? That's not how you do it

In all the ways to build a hurricane- resistant house, building a round house isn't on the list. Yes, it can work, and yes, it can be done - but that's not how you do it. It's also not at all feasible on a large scale. Should people who live in the South just leave the existing square and rectangular houses to rot and move into round houses that don't exist, so that they can get sympathy from you?

Building out of concrete block, btw, doesn't make a house fireproof either.

Sounds to me like you're talking out of the wrong orifice and looking for reasons not to have sympathy for people.

[dysfunctional press]

83. i didn't say concrete block..i said concrete.

regarding round houses-

http://www.bobvila.com/OnTheLevel/Beating-High-Winds-with-a-Round-House-2791.html

Beating High Winds with a Round House

A friend's family home was destroyed by hurricane Katrina. Determined to rebuild better, they chose a round home. Round homes are superior performers in high winds and hurricanes because the wind can travel around them rather than getting trapped and beating against a flat face. Granted, no home is completely storm-proof, but it is pretty significant that none of the round homes built by Deltec—a specialist in round home design and construction—suffered catastrophic damage from Katrina. As if strength and beauty weren't enough, round homes do not draft or lose warm interior air to pressure buildup outside like rectangular homes do, so they are more energy efficient. With all these attributes, it's a wonder every coastal home isn't round.

[UncleSepp]

148. Whatever. I've read the same article... parents live in Florida

The biggest problems with the round houses are first that nobody's building many of them. There aren't round house subdivisions throughout the hurricane-prone regions for people to move into, and you can't build a round house on your existing lot in most places due to community building standards largely based on aesthetics. Hell, you have enough trouble just trying to remodel your house not to have overhanging eaves so that the roof doesn't catch air and turn into a wing. You can't just build whatever you want wherever you want. From an engineering perspective, the round houses are a good, solid solution. From a permitting perspective, they're not yet practical for most lots yet.

BTW, if you actually are interested in this, take a look through Bob Vila's videos for the homes being built at Tampa Armature Works using shipping containers. That's another solid, strongly hurricane-resistant, ecofriendly and low cost housing solution. So long as the steel container frame is sufficiently disguised with frou frou to make it look like the other houses, you can actually build one of them on most suburban building sites in Florida (provided the community allows putting up modular housing, which many do not).

The Katrina cottages from Loews' are another low cost, architecturally sound, hurricane resistant solution. They're designed to meet North Carolina and Louisiana standards, and can be built through most, if not all, of the Gulf Coast. Getting the kits delivered isn't possible through such a wide area, but the plans are available.

Now, seriously. Do you really propose that people who live in traditionally shaped homes out of traditional materials which are built to current hurricane standards are undeserving of sympathy for not having built this specific solution? Do you really think that the tens of millions of households in the hurricane-prone areas can all afford to tear down their present homes and rebuild round houses, or else move?

[Solon]

22. Well that would include everyone who lives on Planet Earth, right?

Wildfires, in particular, can happen anywhere in the world that has any significant amount of vegetation and extended dry conditions. Not to mention the numerous other natural disasters that can hit any area, from severe thunderstorms with tornadoes, hurricanes along the coasts, snowstorms, etc. There is no safe place in this world to live without suffering some type of natural disaster in your lifetime.

[dysfunctional press]

27. lots of peopl live their entire lives without becoming victims to natural disasters

but people have to make choices WHERE they live, and HOW they live in the place they choose.

for instance- people who live in areas prone to natural wildfires should build houses out of fireproof materials- concrete comes to mind as a good choice- they should also REGULARLY clear all the brush and tinder that accumulates.

people who live in hurricane-prone areas should build round houses that have no flat exterior walls for the wind to go against

and so on.

i'm not going to waste any sympathy on people who build flammamble houses in fire-prone areas.

[Solon]

30. Name one area of the world where absolutely no one had to survive natural disasters...

If you suffer a snowstorm this winter in Chicago, and the roof of your house collapses because of it, can I make fun of you for not reinforcing the roof enough?

[dysfunctional press]

33. my aunt lived her entire life in east dundee illinois...

and NEVER faced a natural disaster.

i've never been a victim of one yet either.

LOTS of people do it.

and if i was stupid enough to let enough snow pile up on my roof to collapse it- by all means, make fun of me- (but it won't happen).

[Solon]

36. Apparently there was some flooding this year in her area...

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=24600

I guess you better tell her to move.

[dysfunctional press]

41. nowhere NEAR her area.

my uncle wasn't so stupid as to build a house in a flood plain, after all.

[puebloknot]

161. I lived in Southern California for many years. I didn't have the option...

...to build a house. I was a renter, and I found the best housing I could on the budget I had. As the state has become more and more crowded, housing choices have become more difficult.

Your point is well made that poor choices are being made, and always have been, with regard to placing homes in questionable areas. But the common man has limited choices, and usually ends up living in housing that was built by developers who are looking at their bottom line, and with too little concern for the welfare of those who will occupy the homes they build.

When I first moved to California, years ago, a story made the rounds, right after one of the earthquakes that happen there, about a retired couple who had a mobile home which was destroyed in the earthquake. They decided they couldn't take it in California any longer, so they moved to Florida and bought a new mobile home, whereupon *that* home was destroyed in one of Florida's hurricanes.

Most people have neither the knowledge nor the money to be quite as picky as you suggest they should be. We could pick on people for driving crappy little "rice rockets" down the freeways, instead of bigger and safer German-engineered cars. In a perfect world, sh*t wouldn't happen quite so easily!

People are not stupid for doing the best they can in a country that cares little for its citizens -- now and always. Let him who is without stupidity light the way for others, not criticize them -- especially in their hour of need.

[Quantess]

169. You lived in Southern California and you're not wealthy?

But, couldn't you have asked your friends in Hollywood to help you out? Once you stop being a beach bum, that is.
:sarcasm:

[puebloknot]

178. You know, there are people who live in Beverly Hills, in small apartments...

...who work at real jobs. Now I live in Santa Fe. There are multi-million-dollar mansions here. There are also condos that cost exactly the same amount to rent that I paid in California. There are working people in Santa Fe.

It is kind of frightening to see how people so quickly descend into the depths of their envy, and assume that someone else's prosperity is the shirt right off their back.

These fires, like New Orleans, are a national tragedy, and we should all be wishing the best for people who are losing *everything*, or running away and not knowing what they'll see when they can come back "home."

[Quantess]

181. I posted this in another GD thread about contempt for CA:

Some people have contempt for all-that-is-California.
Having lived in CA for several years, and being a west-coaster all my life, I don't get it. People in Oregon and Washington sometimes make a joke about Californians, but it's good natured.

But then I lived briefly in a big midwestern city, and, at times, I picked up on a serious contempt for California. It was a palpable mixture of envy and mistrust, and accusations of being an immoral, decadent, place. I'm fairly sure most of those people had never even been to CA.

[puebloknot]

184. That's right: "I haven't read the book, but..." nt

[Quantess]

185. ..................

you're writing a book? :shrug:
Anyway, best wishes.

Upon edit: Now I get it.:hi:

[puebloknot]

187. But I am writing a book, actually! :) nt

My memoir, from Texas in 1942 to Korea to Germany to life resumed in the U.S. to....to now, and wondering WTF has happened to my country and how my story (and yours) is going to end!

[Kaylee]

51. Then she was lucky during that small time of 80+ years...

You would think we are pretty safe in the Washington DC area from natural disasters....temperate climes, insulated from major hurricanes, etc. In the past 15 years, we have had two separate communities virtually wiped off the map by freak tornadoes.

I get your point about rebuilding in areas that are "guaranteed" to flood, burn, or sink...but NO AREA on earth is safe from Mother Nature forever.

[cboy4]

73. Ah, I see we finally have an answer from you.

The reason you don't give a shit is because nothing bad has happened to you or you family.

How selfish.

[dysfunctional press]

84. convoluted logic and lots of hostility in one package...

seek help soon, if you already haven't. :hi:

[cboy4]

91. Yes, I was thinking the same about you ass

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

93. and yet you're the only one resorting to name-calling.

repeatedly, even.

my previous advice stands.

[cboy4]

95. How is calling you an ass name calling?

You would admit you're an ass right?

I would venture most people in this thread think you're an ass.

I would feel bad if I was calling someone an ass, if I wasn't sure they were an ass.

But I'm positive you're an ass.

So I have no problem referring to you as an ass.

I hope you understand.

[dysfunctional press]

120. i understand that you seem compelled to resort to name-calling...

but it mostly really says a whole lot about you.

[Touchdown]

107. I can't live in Illinois. Sinus headaches with the humidity.

...and all that. I'd much rather deal with an Earthquake once every 100 years as opposed to a lifetime of head pressure from an entire American midwest region that is inhospitable to me and my condition. At least I'm dry in Denver.

Oh' yeah, when heavy wet spring snows drops 20" in 3 hours (like once every 3 years in Denver), roofs collapse. It even happens to MAACO paint shops. You can't be on your roof every 15 minutes sweeping to keep it from collapsing. You can say you can, but you really won't.

[hedgehog]

35. You've made my point for me.

Roofs in the snow belt rarely collapse because they are required by code to be able to hold the weight of the worst storms.

In my area, a lot of old dairy farms have been shut down. When the barns were full of cows, the cows kept the buildings warm enough to melt the snow off the roofs. When the barns are empty, the snow piles uo and the roofs collapse. The major insurance companies have red-lined my county and will not insure a barn. I get my barn insurance from a local company that sent someone out to inspect our barn to ensure it can sustain the snow load.

If you live in California, build for California.

Hurricane Katrina illustrates the two reponses. Some people living near or on the beaches should have known that hurricanes produce storm surges and should have prepared for them both physically by proper structural design and financially by getting flood insurance. New Orleans is a special case. There were structures in place to protect the city, and the city rode out the hurricane just fine, but then the levees failed.

[Solon]

39. Not really...

Even the best roofs, built up to code, can fail under extreme conditions, especially under combinations of ice and snow storms. The fact is that, while people shouldn't be living in rickety shacks, there are some limits, both physical and economic, that prevent us from building homes that are impervious to natural disasters. It seems that some are complaining that the houses in California are not completely fireproof. Unless you yourself live in a cave with a separate oxygen supply and electrical generation, you shouldn't be bitching about this.

[dysfunctional press]

43. if people insist on living in disaster-prone areas in SUB-standard housing-

(meaning- housing that is built incorrectly for the environment)

they have no right to bitch and moan about the results.

[Solon]

55. The fact of the matter is that, especially when it comes to fire...

but any natural disaster, even homes that are built to your standards wouldn't fare nearly as well as you think. You say build homes from concrete to resist the fires, and when they crack from the heat, what do you say then? Even homes build from the best materials, to deal with the most extreme of whether, will fail. A round house, during a hurricane, can be swept away in a storm surge, even if no where near a coast, a house built with a reinforced roof can have that roof collapse from as little as 3 inches of ice forming on that roof, and in some situations, that can form in hours, not days. You can have flash floods, even in areas that aren't on flood plains, that can sweep away houses and cars, in practically any area. You can have a house sitting pretty in an area with no trees, no streams or rivers nearby, built like a fortress, and a bad storm can destroy it by raising the water table so high, it cracks the foundation. Hell we had storms in my area that create microbursts, some of which actually hit houses directly, completely caving in the homes, like having a giant fist slamming into the roof. Oddly enough, no reports of tornadoes during that storm, which was unusual.

Then, of course, there are changing weather patterns, with throw even more chaos into the mix, when climates change, so do the conditions in many areas. As another person mentioned, wildfires have been getting more severe lately, due largely to drier conditions in many areas, people aren't psychic you can't expect them to not only plan for the current conditions, but all potential conditions that could, even remotely, happen in their area.

[puebloknot]

162. That's right! Let the idiots eat cake!!!!

:sarcasm: In case that was too subtle for you!

[LanternWaste]

174. Well, yeah-- they do have a right.

Well, yeah-- they do have a right. We've already got it that they'll receive little sympathy from you, but they've got a right to bitch and moan as do we all. maybe you don't think they should have that right, but they (we) do.

Maybe the next time I go back home to the Yucatan and another hurricane hits, I'll tell my pals who are so poor they live in shacks w/ tin roofs "hey-- you made your beds. Don't bitch about it 'cause you don't have the right 'cause you didn't build with cinder blocks..."

Probably not, though.

Unless you're only talking about the States-- and we know that in the states, EVERYONE has the means and the money to move into an environmentally appropriate home.

[barb162]

100. Building codes usually account for really , really heavy snows.

Even in super heavy all time record snows you won't be reading about roof collapses.

[LanternWaste]

75. Isn't it more about luck and less about choice when it comes to natural disasters

Isn't it more about luck and less about choice when it comes to natural disasters?

Although I'm not saying choice is completely taken out of the equations many, it seems to me there are quite a few people whose homestead location is predicated by finances rather than the one-size-fits-all sobriquet of "choice".

It would be nice if every person had the money to build the appropriate structure out of the appropriate material for the area they live in, but there are so very few people who have the financial ability to do that.

(Sympathy is never wasted-- as there's an infinite supply of it...)

[dysfunctional press]

88. in some cases that may be true-

"tornado alley" is a HUGE expanse- but many people live there their entire lives and never even see one.

BUT- when you talk about things like building homes on barrier islands where hurricanes wipe them flat time and time again...or building wooden homes in areas naturally designed to burn over and over again- "bad luck" has NOTHING to do with it.

and yes, people could in most cases build an appropriate structure on the same budget- but it might not be as aesthetically pleasing or as expansive as they might like, so it's not a consideration. but again- luck has nothing to do with it- it's about making appropriate choices.

[LanternWaste]

101. So yeah-- it's not about luck IF you have the money...

99% of the people I know can't afford to live in a new home, let alone some custom built designer job. So yeah-- it's not about luck IF you have the money...

And if one doesn't have the money, well-- I guess they just should have worked harder or more jobs :sarcasm:

[dysfunctional press]

121. the people who build the houses and buildings have the money

but they choose to build the kind of things that people WANT, not what people SHOULD have in any given environment.

[Quantess]

167. I wonder if you would react this way if the fire was in, say,

somewhere like Fargo, ND or, Oklahoma City. If the fire were ANYWHERE but California, would you have this attitude?

Are you one of those people who have contempt for California, because you have the mistaken impression it's all Hollywood, Disneyland, drug-casualty-beach-bums, and decadent, self-indulgent, wealthy people?

It's amazing how people from other parts of the country think they know all about a place, not because they've ever lived there, but because they hear about it in the news and see it on TV.

[LanternWaste]

175. Then blame it on the builders rather than the people living there...

Then blame it on the builders and the market economy rather than the people living there. n/t

[LWolf]

23. Where can all 6+billion of us live where natural disasters

NEVER happen? Earthquakes, drought, flood, hurricane, tornado, wildfire, ice storm....

Let us know when you find someplace that safe and that roomy.

[dysfunctional press]

29. people have to make choices about HOW to live WHERE they live.

for instance- people who live in areas prone to natural wildfires should build houses out of fireproof materials- concrete comes to mind as a good choice- they should also REGULARLY clear all the brush and tinder that accumulates.

people who live in hurricane-prone areas should build round houses that have no flat exterior walls for the wind to go against

and NOBODY should build in a flood-plain.

and so on.

i'm not going to waste any sympathy on people who build flammable houses in fire-prone areas.

[Bluebear]

31. "i'm not going to waste any sympathy" - I'm not going to be stingy with mine.

Particularly dead in the middle of the crisis.

[LanternWaste]

54. Because, as we all know...

Because, as we all (should) know-- our sympathy for others can be infinite if we allow it-- and you're one of the good ones, BB.

(There's a Fred Phelps-ish taint to this thread that I find a bit surprising...)

[LWolf]

142. How many of those 6+billion

built their own houses, got to choose the design, the materials, etc., and how many take what's already there, already available?

It's not realistic, as well as severely lacking in empathy, to blame residents for the codes their homes are built to.

How many of the world's 6+ billion people are grateful to have a shelter to call home, regardless of how it's built?

While I certainly agree that dwellings should be built to fit the environment they are built in, I don't blame the dwellers.

[bridgit]

160. haven't you heard? Dundee, Illinois = whoops, there goes the neighborhood...

:shrug:

[RB TexLa]

32. Ah, knew the "I'm so smart for where I live and you are stupid to live where you do, look at how

stupid you are," post was comming.

[dysfunctional press]

34. HOW people live WHERE they choose to is the point.

but people have to make choices WHERE they live, and HOW they live in the place they choose.

for instance- people who live in areas prone to natural wildfires should build houses out of fireproof materials- concrete comes to mind as a good choice- they should also REGULARLY clear all the brush and tinder that accumulates.

people who live in hurricane-prone areas should build round houses that have no flat exterior walls for the wind to go against

and so on.

i'm not going to waste any sympathy on people who build flammable houses in fire-prone areas.

[kineneb]

129. nice idea, if you are wealthy

but not all people living up in the hills have money. In fact, some live there because it is the only place they can afford. Some of the small communities that are burning are most likely populated with people of very modest means. Some of their homes are old and don't even meet modern building codes, and they probably cannot afford to upgrade.

Not all of those communities are necessarily in areas that would normally burn, but they have had a drought and the Santa Ana winds drop the humidity below 10%. At that point, even just looking at something could cause it to catch fire.

Come live here awhile and then you will understand.

Walk a mile in another's shoes before you condemn them.

[MaxPlancker]

186. My family and I were evacuees. I have a few questions for you.

Where is fire not a danger? What area of the country is not fire prone?

The issue here is the wind. Embers will travel for a mile or more. How can that be avoided?

There are dozens and dozens of examples where one house was leveled by fire and the house right next to it was untouched. Some of these were just completed form the last go around with the Cedar fire. They were built out of concrete and had concrete tile roofs, and they still burned. What were these folks supposed to do?

Some people's insurance only covers the purchase price, not the replacement price. This was not an issue when they bought he house in 1965. Fixed income folks that are only living in that house because of prop 13. Is it their fault that their home 1965 building standards home appreciated by 3000%?

A friend works at Donovan correctional facility, (its a prison), and I asked him what there plans were for evacuation. The close the vents of the air conditioning to the outside and ride it out. Too many to relocate for one thing and hotels are not an option considering the clientele. Its concrete and steel with gravel roofs and -lots- of open area from the buildings plus no brush for 100 yards. So by your standard is everyone supposed to live in prison style construction?

There is an answer to the ultimate catastrophe safe dwelling BTW. I'll even give you a hint. It will take a direct hit. From anything. Catastrophe proof

I do understand your position on this though. After "all" is considered there is nothing left to "question", eh QuestionAll?

[LanternWaste]

52. Is there any place in the continental U.S...

Is there any place in the continental U.S. that is not prone to natural disaster?

Droughts, blizzards, flooding, etc...?

[dysfunctional press]

70. the point is that people can build houses better suited to their local environments...

but choose not to- they need to learn from their mistakes....but they won't.

[LanternWaste]

77. IF they have the money. Most don't.

They can build dwelling better suited.... IF they have the money. Most don't.

[barb162]

98. Actually I think the Appalachian area is stable geologically

as are the Great Plains and most of the East Coast areas except for a tiny spot in E. Missouri. Droughts are another story with climate change. Those will expand I think. But why purposely move today to desert areas or condos on sandbars on the Gulf Coast? It's asking for trouble. No, it's begging for trouble.

[Individualist]

111. Floods are a problem in the Appalachians

due to runoff from the mountains, and although they're rare, tornadoes can and do occur. Forest fires are definitely a problem, especially during a drought like the one we have now.

[barb162]

144. Floods are a problem in many areas.

I live in a non-flood zone, though there was 18" of rain in a 24 hour period a few years ago and lots of people got flooded. But that is a rare event. It's also different from purposely buying a house near a river and hoping it doesn't flood every spring. Some pople will do anything for a view and then expect insurance companies to keep reimbursing them every damned two years for a new house. Would I purposely buy land in a mudslide area because of the view? No. Would I purposely buy a house in the Mississippi or Ohio River flood plains? No.
And tornadoes do devastating but limited area damage as they are such small events compared to hurricanes.

[Terran]

92. Congrats

You have officially made the dumbest post ever on DU. Have some champagne.

[roguevalley]

108. I loathe fires. Hated/loved August in Oregon for this reason and my

little pa was a volunteer firefighter on those things. Nothing worse than being made homeless this way. God bless the USA because its coming for a lot of places. How is Georgia doing with the drought? I can only imagine the Great Basin getting drier.

[krabigirl]

171. LOL! Where do you suggest everyone live, then?

I find your comments extremely offensive, as a lifelong resident of Southern California.

[OKNancy]

3. It's really too bad isn't it?

I wish you and everyone the best. Compassion shouldn't be reserved for those who are deemed "worthy".
It seems like a very few here really do adhere to the old saying. "Liberals care about the masses, but not the individual". I've seen it get so partisan that people will cheer for a friggin' sports team based on if they are in a blue state or a red state. Crazy.

[Midlodemocrat]

60. Hey! Haven't seen you in forever!

How are you? I was thinking about you just the other day. Hope you are doing well.

[OKNancy]

67. Thanks... I took a big break

but now I'm all pissy again and ready to rumble.

[H2O Man]

5. Good post.

It doesn't matter if people are rich or poor, or somewhere in between: fires are the same. They are destructive, scare the heck out of people, injure and kill families and pets and wildlife, and put firmen's lives at risk. Tragic events should bring out the best in a community, not the crude stuff too often heard on here.

[Bluebear]

12. Indeed. Why is a compassionate word so hard to conjur up for some?

Honestly, it is sickening.

[LanternWaste]

176. I don't think it's any more difficult...

I don't think it's any more difficult for him/them to conjure than it is for anyone else-- I think some people simply enjoy the attention received from being mulish and a contrarian. A bit of prudish morality and gentility to differentiate himself/herself from the "common masses"

Gads! it's been frustrating here over the past few days...

[KT2000]

13. You are so right

This is an awful thing to have to live through. I will never forget a Malibu fire a few years ago where a screenwriter ran back into his burning home to save his cat. The poor man did not survive.

Sometimes I think one of the easiest things in the world is to turn people against each other - for any number of reasons. Are so many of us humans looking for reasons not to care about others? The GOP has figured this out and uses lack of compassion as a successful rallying point. Too bad it has shown up here.

[RestoreGore]

14. It's the same thing with the drought down South

Only it is political. I have read comments that those down there who are Republicans deserve to die of thirst and I can bet they day the same as well about Democrats. It certainly is a big part of what's wrong with this country.

[Enrique]

17. often when they show pictures of the homes on TV

my first thought is, wow, there are some incredibly lavish homes out in CA.

The class divide in this country is so brutal and so extreme, and getting worse. Class resentment is unavoidable. The pictures of those homes is bound to stir it up.

No it's not fantastic for people to react callously to this tragedy, but do you think that reaction is causing those people not to get taken care of? I'm guessing they'll be taken care of, but maybe I'm wrong.

[EFerrari]

24. I saw on the news that firefighters from five northern counties

have headed down there. The aerial shots of the fire were something else. Massive.

[kineneb]

131. yes, in some places

but remember, one could buy a very nice home for a reasonable price there in the 1950s or 1960s. Some of the older communities were "cheap" tract houses when they were built; and building to withstand fire was never considered. Now those same houses sell for a million +. Same house, different time.

[krabigirl]

170. Ugh

[vssmith]

18. "We have to get busy there are a bunch of multi-million dollar homes down there"

I was watching a special on the catastrophe that is going on with wildfires in the west. I heard one boss say the above(paraphrased). It was like we have to work extra hard for these rich people. Hopefully they will work equally hard for all.

[Theres-a]

53. I think you're onto something,there. nt

[Swamp Rat]

19. I heard that a lot on TV during Katrina

:hug:

[ShaneGR]

20. I see a lot who think these fires are historically "common"

But if you look at history, they're not. These mega fires are a new phenomenon that started in the last 20 years. Certainly there were fires, but not of this intensity and frequency.

[alarimer]

118. That might have to do with how the land is now managed

If natural fires are not allowed to burn, it builds up a lot of material making fires all the more catastrophic. So, at least in recent times, there has been an effort to suppress ALL fires, making the ones that go out of control more dangerous. Many plants in the west require fire to germinate and remove a lot of the understory. Also exotic plants like Eucalyptus are extremely fire-prone. They have a lot of oil that leads to very explosive, very dangerous fires. Removing those trees, requiring homeowner to only plant native species and to clear brush on all their land and managing public lands in an ecologically meaningful way (including controlled burns to rid the area of a lot of brush and allow plants to germinate) would go a long way to reducing the impact of such fires.

Plus I think the human population has exploded in recent years, building in unsuitable areas or areas that previously didn't have people in them, making such fires as occur more costly and damaging.

[begin_within]

25. The victims are not always rich people. But the rich ones can recover from it,

while the middle to low income victims can have their entire lives devastated by it. The Normal Heights fire on June 30, 1985 reduced my friend Rob's house to ashes, and their whole family split up and their lives were never the same. I don't think Rob has ever totally recovered from it. (Although his mother did win $5 million in the California Lottery 6 years later, but Rob never got any of that.) The cataclysmic Cedar Fire of October 2003 leveled 2,232 homes in a 50-mile swath from Mira Mesa almost to Julian, and did not discriminate between high-income and low-income residents - virtually every home in the fire's path got hit...

[KansDem]

94. Good point...

But the rich ones can recover from it

I'm not condoning this attitude, but when rich folks suffer a natural disaster, chances are better that:

1) Their legal documents and official papers are in the safe of their lawyer;
2) Their tax documents and financial papers are in the safe of their tax accountant;
3) Their investment portfolio, stocks and bonds are in the safe of their business manager or broker;
4) Their personal effects are in their safe deposit box;
5) They are better-off financially to reside in an apartment or condo until they're house is rebuilt;
6) Perhaps their relationship with their insurance agent is such that one phone-call gets the ball rolling on their claims and rebuilding;
7) Perhaps their relationship with their banker is such that one phone call gets them a line of needed credit;
8) Perhaps their relationship with their employer is such that they are able to get the time off to see to details in the weeks or months following a disaster;
8) Perhaps their health care is such that they're able to take sick leave from work if they're injured and recuperate.

To live through a natural disaster in which your home is destroyed is horrendous; it just hits the poor and middle class harder.

It's been over two years since Katrina and I read that there are still residents who have not been able to rebuild and move back...

[hedgehog]

37. Some of the reponse is a result of having to keep hearing about

how great the wather in California is and how stupid we are to continue living in the Upper midwest and North east. We have our disaster every year. It's called winter.

[durrrty libby]

38. The lack of compassion and empathy of so-called dems is shocking

[Stinky The Clown]

40. Lack of empathy and rigid, willful ignorance.

I can't think of any other reason. :shrug:

[Solly Mack]

42. Fire is an equal opportunity killer and destroyer

Fire doesn't contemplate the morality of what it is or the ethics of what it does... it just is and it just consumes. It's a force - and a deadly force at that.

I see people and other creatures running for their lives from fire.

I hope they escape...I'd like to think others have that same hope.

[Lorien]

44. Remember 2004 here on DU? While hurricane Charley was bearing down

on my city I was typing away on DU, desperate for up to the minute information because my power had gone out and my last portal to the outside world was the internet (battery power). Many DUers were GLEEFUL that a powerful hurricane was tearing through our state because "they let Bush steal the presidency" so "they can get wiped off the face of the earth for all I care-they deserve it". Really? Seems that I recall working for the Gore campaign throughout 2000 and trying to PHYSICALLY stop the election fraud at the minority polling place I was assigned. I faced off against racist white cops who tried to close the polls early and were intimidating voters, but I didn't succeed. So I guess that yeah, I failed personally, so a hurricane should kill me or at least destroy my home (thankfully it did neither, though my home was damaged and my neighborhood was torn apart). And hey, two more hurricanes hit us before the year was out! Apparently that pleased both Jerry Falwell AND that segment on DU that cheers wildfires, hurricanes, droughts and every other natural disaster as divine retribution for whatever pisses them off.

*sigh*

[Midlodemocrat]

57. I remember that. It sickened me.

[LeftyMom]

66. I remember that I damn near got an ulcer from all that.

My son's grandparents in Arcadia had a tree limb go though their roof, and they lost a shed full of furniture (she rehabs stuff like that as a hobby.)

It could have been a lot worse, but it pisses me off that people here base compassion on percieved income and political leanings.

[arikara]

149. That was awful!

I remember that.

:hug:

If it wasn't for people like you I wouldn't bother checking in to this place anymore. There are getting to be too many around that can't be bothered to "waste their sympathy"... or worse.

[hedgehog]

46. Perhaps we should remember what the rabbi said:

" He makes his sun rise on people whether they are good or evil. He lets rain fall on them whether they are just or unjust."

[MedleyMisty]

47. Why do rich people always screw over poor people and make their lives hell?

Not an excuse. Just an explanation. And before I get flamed - it's not how I personally feel. Just trying to explain a possible reason for the viewpoints of others.

When you don't have health insurance and work at two shitty jobs where people treat you like crap just because of where you work and can still barely pay the rent on your roach infested apartment, it's going to take a rare strength to really feel compassion for people who will still have more than you could ever dream of having even after the fire.

There is a reason why wide gaps between the rich and the poor have never worked out well historically.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

85. That's one hell of an implicit assumption you've got there...

If it were true, you might have a case. But "always" is a big, big word.

[Midlodemocrat]

145. Oh, FFS. Can I borrow that broad brush when you're done with it?

[Beausoir]

50. I live a comfortable life. I live in a forest. These people must be terrified.

I couldn't imagine losing everything in a fire.

[Forkboy]

56. Some people have the soul of an amoeba.

[FourScore]

59. I think that's pretty insulting

to the amoeba, don't you?:evilgrin:

[Forkboy]

62. Heh

:rofl:

[BoneDaddy]

61. Hypocrisy

There is an element of the left that is just as reactive, irrational and NOT compassionate as those they accuse on the right. If you are Christian, male, rich, you deserve nothing but scorn and condemnation regardless of the fact that you might be a great person.

If you are a person of color, female and poor, hell, you would have to eat your own baby to criticized by some in these rooms.

[Throd]

147. Unless that baby voted Republican.

[BoneDaddy]

163. Good point

lol

[Romulox]

63. Why are we only "one people" when there's a catastrophe?

I hadn't noticed an excess of compassion for the rest of the country emanating out of Southern California recently... :shrug:

[JVS]

89. LOL!

[Tektonik]

134. ugh

I guess no one in socal donated a cent for Katrina relief, nor did anyone help the victims of 9/11

I understand many midwesterners grow up with an intrinsic jealousy of flashier areas like NYC and LA, but that you shouldn't let it prevent you from having an ounce of compassion.

[Romulox]

164. LOL. It's cute how you insult other regions while demanding "compassion" for California! nt

edit: for clarity

[Tektonik]

166. I didn't insult anyone,

but you are off-base in your original post of this sub thread.

Your claim about Southern Californians was hollow, and it seems apparent you have a nonsensical bone to pick with the region. I just threw jealousy on the table because it isn't uncommon for someone from the midwest to have bitterness towards areas championed by the media.

[JVS]

177. yes you did.

But we understand you people might be jealous of areas that might not catch fire so much

[Tektonik]

179. Well his post demonstrated insanity or jealousy,

and I chose jealousy. Guess that makes me a big bully. :shrug:

[JVS]

182. You applied a broad brush while doing it and then you were incapable of perceiving that you were...

insulting people. He was right to be amused by the irony of you not being capable of practicing what you preach.

[Bake]

64. And now you have a little inkling of how people on the Gulf Coast feel

When people say, hey, you chose to live there with all those hurricanes ...

Bake

[alarimer]

135. We do have to consider hurricanes in building in vulnerable areas

Something no one is really doing. Right now, in Corpus Christi, they are building on the barrier island like they never heard of Katrina. They know that someday we will be hit but just such a storm, yet they are doing it ANYWAY and we are allowing it. And in this case, it is mostly better-off people who are moving there. So when the big storm comes, and it inevitably will, I will not feel sorry for them. Rich people (a lot of people come here from California because they can get a second home for cheap compared to where they live) are also driving up property taxes for everyone else. SO,when global warming brings more and stronger hurricanes (not to mention sea level rise) I will only laugh and say I told you so. Because we all know what it going to happen. If I made the rules I would require all barrier islands to be removed of people and their homes relocated (BEFORE the storms happen) and no one would ever be allowed to live there permanently.

New Orleans should never have been built where it was BUT it was the channeling of the Mississippi (reducing the flow of sediments to the delta- the delta being another area no one should be allowed to live or build in, because it provides valuable protection against a storm surge) and the failure of the levees that caused the flooding. New Orleans was mostly okay until then. As for the barrier islands in Mississippi and Florida- do not allow anyone to live out there.

[tandot]

68. Agree, Cboy4. Our county (Placer) sent some firetrucks down to help out

I hope they'll get it under control soon.

:hi:

[cboy4]

78. Yes I've heard Tandot. That's good news.

Good to hear from you neighbor. :hi:

[Cleita]

87. One nice thing about our fires is that fire fighters come from

all over even as far as Idaho, Washington state and Montana.

[kineneb]

132. I imagine Medocino/Lake CDF folks have been dispatched

as our fire season seems to be over after several good rainstorms.

[tandot]

143. I've heard on TV today that usually at the end of the fire season a lot of fire fighters

get laid off here in N CA.

KCRA reported on Placer County and Sacramento County fire fighters being sent down. I bet there are plenty of fire fighters from other counties on their way to help.

[DS1]

71. It's the liberal version of Falwell. I'm more thrifty than you, therefore you have little

sympathy if your stuff burns up. You shouldn't have had so much stuff in the first place./

[Missy Vixen]

156. Thank you, DS1

You said what I've been thinking much more eloquently than I ever could.

Julie

[Fresh_Start]

74. Clearly we have to clear cut all land in the USA to

reduce the risk of natural disasters.

For example I lived in the northeast until a few years ago.
A freak October ice storm resulted in 1000's of trees (still covered in leaves) being uprooted from the weight of the ice. Those trees took out houses, roads, utilities.

Apparently the trees have relatively shallow root structures so when they took on the ice load while still bearing leaves, that toppled the trees.

The same trees survived for 50+ years through winter ice storms since without leaves the trees were stable enough to support the ice on bare branches. But the leaves added enough surface area that the weight was much greater than the winter ice storms.

There is NO area in this country which doesn't have natural disasters. There is probably no area on the planet that doesn't have natural disasters.

You can try to live as wisely as possible with the natural disasters that you face, but you can't avoid them forever.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

86. I think anyone who lives in Malibu and other parts of affluent LA County

has bought a view of the ocean and sunsets in many cases. The homes sit on piss poor land. It's no different in the canyons. The land is prone to mudslides in rainy weather and fires in dry weather. I believe they bought a bad bargain. I too have an ocean view and sit on unstable land that can slide away in a mudslide.

I'm not rich but a renter and I rent from family. Any fire would devastate me as I would lose what little I have. It would take a major part of my family's assets as well although they bought their property decades ago when it was a fair price. Right now I keep looking over the top of the hill I live on looking for a column of smoke, a bad sign. Many people don't realize that a lot of those people aren't among the filthy rich. I do believe they pay too much for what they get and a mudslide or fire proves it to them when it's too late.

[haele]

126. There are people who live in trailer parks in Malibu, not 2 Miles from the Getty -

There are also people who bought before Malibu became trendy back in the 50's - working middle class and small local business owners, who are either living out their golden years now or have left their little close to the beach to a child. As in most areas, there is someplace for "the help", the mechanics, the fast food workers to live. Malibu tends to run half and half affluent and "just getting by" - and with Prop 13, there are a lot of frankly poor people who have lived a couple generations in their little off the canyon bungalow without seeing a large tax increase for decades - so if they didn't have to sell the family home due to taxes just because all the other homes in the area jumped up from $15K in 1965 to $1.5M in 2005, they stayed.
Despite threat of mudslides, wildfires, or tsunamis...

Haele

[Cleita]

137. I agree with you and I apologize if I seemed snarky.

I would like more equitable property taxation to return though. I'm all for the 1% tax for those who need it, but not for those who really can afford to pay more for their second homes and tennis courted mansions.

[haele]

141. 'sokay - it's just that every person I work with directly is being evacuated -

And I think 2 of them have lost their homes.
I'm just getting a bit stressed. The smoke on the horizon looks like a nasty midwest storm, ready for tornados.

Haele

[KitchenWitch]

99. The sustained stress of this is nearly killing me

I have not EVER been through anything like this. The only good thing that has come from this is that, at least for the moment, I appear to have overcome my fear of heights, because I had to climb the ladder last night to water my roof.

I do not wish this on anyone. I do not care what class one falls into, this is not a good thing for anyone.

[cboy4]

102. Hang in there KitchenWitch.

:pals:

[KitchenWitch]

105. Thanks - and thank you for this thread.

:hug:

[hisownpetard]

153. Oh, good luck, and stay safe! nt

[LanternWaste]

109. Good luck and all my...

Good luck and all my prayers/best thoughts coming at you and all your neighbors.

Please be careful and get the heck out of Dodge if things get hairy... :scared:

[Rex]

103. Hey bro, you know I love you. Hang in there.

I hope somehow the fires can be put out ASAP.

[cboy4]

113. Hey my friend! Thanks so much for the kind words.

You're the best. :pals:

[Rex]

139. Gotta stick together. Be safe.

:hug:

[Sequoia]

104. I totally agree with you.

Some of those "rich" homes are rented out. One person at work said he hopes LA burns down. I told him to be careful or his home would burn. Remarks like that are not cute. My (future) husband lived in Topanga during the 1993 fire there and lost his car, home and place of work. Malibu, Boquet Canyon...where we used to drive to that little waterfall...take care Southern DUers!

[MindPilot]

106. When you lose personal possessions it doesn't matter how much money you have

Photographs, mementos, collections, awards, certificates, antiques, things you made, arts, crafts. No amount of money can replace that stuff or ease the pain of losing it.

Wildfires are the great equalizer; they don't discriminate.

[malaise]

114. Good post

Hope everyone survives this disaster.

[mondo joe]

115. It's not just natural disasters. Look at the LaCrosse players, or lost mountain climbers.

There's a totally sickening glee that some people take in other's suffering, so long as those other people fit the right socioeconomic categories.

[cboy4]

119. Exactly. And don't forget about the "rich" San Francisco

father who took the wrong road and got lost in Oregon.

Stupid idiot father. He deserved to die. :eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

123. That goes both ways. I remember the contempt for the Katrina victims...

Yes, I remember it well.

[mondo joe]

Absolutely. That's why I didn't specify the rich, but whatever socioeconomic

category someone decides deserves to be punished.

[lonestarnot]

116. Rich or po, doesn't matter; you're shit still burns.

[RebelSansCause]

117. i have no idea what is wrong with people sometimes....

and you have my full sympathy. there are many factors when choosing a place to live, and some people just cannot afford to move away. i think the disparity in media coverage is horrible in this country, unless there is a humungous disaster like katrina. however, to say i should not have sympathy for the rich is ridiculous, why not, they are poeple. even if you have the money, losing your home is traumatic. my sympathy is mine and mine alone to give, so stop trying to tell me how to give it out.

[Ellen Forradalom]

122. CA's inflated housing prices make others THINK we're rich

but in fact we're cash-strapped by living here.

[cboy4]

124. !!!!Exactly!!!!! My parents purchased their house in

1964 for $12,000 and it's worth about $650,000.

My parents are middle class Democrats, who live a modest lifestyle.

It's not like my dad spent a million dollars (including interest) on a luxury home.

Far from it.

Good point Ellen.

[mondo joe]

130. And it's not like it should matter anyway.

Even if your parents were rich, it's pretty shitty to take delight in their loss.

[cboy4]

133. Yes. Thanks Mondo.

:)

[Ellen Forradalom]

140. It does not.

But the inflated housing prices create the illusion that we're all rich, which feeds this sick attitude.

[Mike03]

125. Any wildfire is a catastrophe, not just for humans but

animals.

However, if this is arson, then any clear-headed forensic psychiatrist or behavioralist would take the targets into account when trying to understand motivation. In my mind, that is a side issue; I've been watching coverage for over 24 hours and this thread is the first time I have seen socioeconomic issues even mentioned at this point.

For what it's worth, socioeconomics dosn't appear to be a factor in the placement of these fires, but it's hard to tell until we know which ones were intentionally set.

The insurance companies should be under suspicion for their quick response to Malibu, perhaps. But it's really damned early to be making blanket generalizations.

[Skittles]

128. haven't experienced the wildfire thing but

I came home from work one morning and my apartment building had burned to the ground. I'm pretty sure it would suck for anyone.

[Taverner]

136. Stay safe my friend - from one Californian to another

:hug:

[Raine]

138. I live in CA too

and hearing that shit pisses me off no end, anyone who thinks like that can fuck off! :grr: NEVER have I said such hateful things about people in other parts of the country who have endured disasters!

[Melynn]

150. This is a horror story, no doubt

The last I heard, 250,000 people were being evacuated. That's a quarter of a million people who are displaced, without homes. A true tragedy in my opinion.

I don't why everything has to be political nowadays. It seems like we have lost our sense of humanity.

[goclark]

152. I'm in Los Angeles but feel your pain

People think we are all Paris Hilton out here and we're just ordinary people.
Peace

[cboy4]

154. A photograph from tonight:

[DeepModem Mom]

155. K&R

[bliss_eternal]

157. A resident of Rancho Bernardo (an affected area)....

...that I know of personally, is a hairstylist and her husband is a police officer. They have two children. They are not rich. They worked really hard, saved their money and moved to an area where they believed their kids would recieve a good education. Yes, their home is nice by some's standareds--but it's not a mansion by any means.

I (of course) can't reach them or even know how they've fared in this mess, because the power lines are down.

Her neighborhood is filled with people that work inland in orange/san diego/long beach and even los angeles counties. They make the long commute and sacrifice the time because they believe they are doing what's best for their families.

It makes me very sad to think that people here would damn them to losing their homes because they "presume" they are wealthy and/or voted for bush.

Great post cboy. We Californians will get through this.
:hug:

[Gelliebeans]

158. hey bliss

I was wondering about you I hope you reach your friends, let me know if there is anything I can do to help? My parents were caught up in the fires (home is still there) but they lost their avocado grove (their retirement) and their barn. We just found out 4 friends of my parents lost everything. Thankfully, I am north far enough (Temecula)that I was able to take their pets for safe keeping after they evacuated at 3 am this morning.

The closure of the 15 means that they are stuck down there at another friends house after they went back to pick up more neighbors evacuate. My husband is hoping that he will be able to get them tomorrow morning. Fingers crossed.

You are right about us Californians, we WILL get through this. :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

159. Hi Gelliebeans...

...I just happened to still be around and saw this. :hi:

I'm sure our friends will be ok--thank you for expressing concern and offering to help. (Sounds like you have your hands full, poor thing:hug:).

They have tons of family (on both sides) local to my area--far away from the devastation. Even if they lose their home(I hope and pray they don't), they will not be homeless. Lots of loving friends and family will be around to take them in. While watching news of that area, it seems few were spared--I hope they were, but if not they will be ok. Thanks so much for your concern.

I'm SO sorry to hear that your parents lost their avocado grove and barn. :(

Dh spoke to another friend earlier about a mutual friend who lives in Arrowhead. They've had several offers of places to stay locally (away from the danger zones). He was seeking shelter for their babies (5 cats), but some mutual friends have agreed to take them in too. We just want them all out of there!

I hope you can get some rest, sounds like you've been super busy with all of this. Best to your dh, I hope he can get in and get the rest out. Sending lots of supportive vibes, and dh and I will keep you and yours in our thoughts and prayers!

Hang in there!

[Mutineer]

168. I agree 100% with the OP

I've seen a lot of shameful rich-bashing and with the hurricanes in the past, Florida bashing just because of the election dramas of past and at the time, Bush's bro was gov. That's ridiculous to hate an entire group of people just because they have money. A lot of rich people being impacted are huge donors to our party. Remember that. Also remember that there are indeed poor people being impacted by this fire too. Furthermore, it's just. . . unAmerican to actively cheer for a part of your own country to burn or be destroyed by a hurricane or whatever just because you have issues with the president or the way the country votes or whatever. I'm sick of seeing the South attacked too. I have family & friends there and not everyone who lives there votes GOP. It seems to me that there is a lot of bigotry and hatred and bashing that goes on at this board against certain groups of people and what people perceive them to be, based on absolutely nothing. Those of you who are guilty of this should be ashamed and should openly apologize for your ignorance and your hateful actions.

To our California brothers and sisters: Be strong & stay safe. Some of us, I daresay, MOST of us, are with you. Fuck the rest.

[NMMNG]

180. You want the simple answer?

Some people are insensitive shitheads.

[ContraBass Black]

183. Addendum:

Who are willing to ignore the actual economic composition of the group of victims in order to make their point against their favorite villain archetype.