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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:38 AM
Original message
Check out what happened in the House yesterday --
Edited on Thu Oct-18-07 11:52 AM by DeepModem Mom
buried in this article in the New York Times:

(NOTE: Here is a link to LBN post, and discussion, of the main portion of the article, about the Senate deal on phone company immunity: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3033330.)

Senate Deal on Immunity for Phone Companies
By ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: October 18, 2007

....At the start of the day, Democrats were confident that the measure would gain approval in the House despite a veto threat from President Bush. But after an afternoon of partisan sniping, Democratic leaders put off that vote because of a competing measure from Republicans that on its face asked lawmakers to declare where they stood on stopping Osama bin Laden from attacking the United States again.

The Republican measure declared that nothing in the broader bill should be construed as prohibiting intelligence officials from conducting the surveillance needed to prevent Mr. bin Laden or Al Qaeda “from attacking the United States.” Had it passed, it threatened to derail the Democratic measure altogether.

Democrats denounced the Republicans’ poison pill on Mr. bin Laden as a cynical political ploy and “a cheap shot.” But Democratic leaders realized that they were at risk of losing the votes of a contingent of more moderate Democrats who did not want to be left vulnerable for voting against a resolution to stop Al Qaeda, officials said. So the leaders pulled the measure, promising to take it up again next week once they could solidify support.

The Republican maneuver “would have killed the bill, and we couldn’t risk that,” said a senior Democratic aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal leadership deliberations. “We thought we’d be able to defeat it, but it became clear that we couldn’t.” The episode revealed, once again, fault lines within the Democratic Party over how to tackle national security questions without appearing “soft” on terrorism in the face of Republican criticism.

Indeed, Republican leaders immediately praised their ability to block the N.S.A. measure as a sign of the Democrats’ weakness on that issue. Representative Heather A. Wilson, Republican of New Mexico, said Speaker Nancy Pelosi “underestimated the intelligence of the American people and the bipartisan majority in the Congress to understand what matters most: preventing another terrorist attack.” Democrats, clearly thrown on the defensive, countered that Republicans were the ones playing politics with national security....The Democratic measure would have sought to restore some of the restrictions on the security agency’s wiretapping powers that had been loosened under a temporary measure approved by Congress just before its August recess....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/washington/18nsa.html?ref=todayspaper
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. is it true that the wording specifies immunity for actions AFTER 9/11 only?!?
"WASHINGTON, Oct. 17 — Leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee reached a tentative agreement on Wednesday with the Bush administration that would give telephone carriers legal immunity for any role they played in the National Security Agency’s domestic eavesdropping program approved by President Bush after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, a Congressional official said Wednesday. "

That would be pretty cool, as Qwest says the spying began months BEFORE 9/11.....
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. But all the trials would be canceled, so we would never get the information.
There are several legal cases pending against the phone companies right now. Years of building cases. They would all be thrown out immediately. So the golden curtain of "we still have a little bit of leverage", is, in my opinion, unreal.
(not criticizing you, am criticizing the senate. I am furious!)
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. I am without words for how terrible this immunity would be. Once again it
legalizes anti-constitutional acts. I don't think we can let them sign this. I do not have a plan of action to suggest, but I think we had better get very vocal very fast.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. then again - with signing statements available - does congress matter at all?
The laws they carefully craft are signed and then statements appended that totally nullify them (McCains torture law). So truly we don't have checks and balances, we have a shell game - smoke and mirrors. What congress does is merely window dressing it would seem.

And congress isn't standing up to the white house at all. They are allowing themselves to be rendered completely impotent, powerless, paper tigers.

I do not know what to do. America is being totally destroyed.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. signing statements can be challenged through impeachment and courts.
Once the congress legalizes the spying, there is no going back. They are retroactively changing our laws to benefit Bush.
there is a big difference, imho.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. maybe not--check this out: Dems pull fast one on Repubs
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Maybe! Very interesting -- thanks for the link! nt
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. Why are Dems so fucking susceptible to "poison pill" BS? WHY
don't they for ONCE either turn the tables on the GOPers and play the same games, or at least call the cheap tricks for what they are and IGNORE them? I just don't get it. I don't worry that the Dems will get blamed for the next terra attack, because they'll get blamed somehow anyway, no matter what they do--it's how the GOPers operate. Why allow that political threat to dictate our legislation in this country?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Why is the GOP so much better at winning bill battles?
It is maddening!
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. unbelievable! And why was this decided in under 24 hours? The documents were
sent yesterday. They had time to read them all, make sure everything was accounted for, and determine that it was all legal in one afternoon?

We're not talking about pees or potatoes for lunch. We're talking about a major breach of the Constitution here.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I know! That's why I posted this after I read it. Again and again, this happens...
in one context or another.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. This one seems really really really serious.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Indeed --
"The Democratic measure would have sought to restore some of the restrictions on the security agency’s wiretapping powers that had been loosened under a temporary measure approved by Congress just before its August recess...." As you say, it's the Constitution.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yep--remember them passing FISA in August, right before recess, because
of "intel" that terrorists would attack and it would be the Dems' fault for delaying the bill. Now Jane Harman admits it was just a dirty trick. How fucking stupid can they be?
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Harman admits it but I dont see anyone saying it loud at the moment they debate these bills.
only the republican framing is allowed in.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Republicans said, "BOO!" and the Dems said, "EEEK!".
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I love a seasonal reply!
So festive. :D
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. why the hell don't they refut the "because of 9-11" bullshit. We already
know they were spying before 9-11, whihc makes the entire republican argument moot.
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