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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:38 AM
Original message
Should our public drinking water be floridated?
I have a very close friend that lives in Alaska and he says they are having a huge fight about floridating their water supply. He says it is going to be voted upon by the people but that there was a lot of evidence that states floride can hurt small children and older folks as well. He says their water there is absolutely pure and the government wants to put chemicals in it and he is opposed. Does the government have that right?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:39 AM
Original message
State government or federal? I oppose the feds getting involved.
The only thing the feds have a say in is national water purity standards. Beyond that, let the states do what they want.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. hooboy, here we go
:popcorn:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. ...
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 09:53 AM by blondeatlast
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here where I live in NY it's by town. My town is the only one that doesn't floridate and
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 09:41 AM by OmmmSweetOmmm
personally, I'm very happy about that.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Only an idiot is against floridation of the water supply
they are the same sort of moron who simultaneously disbelieves in vaccinations and yet believes in a hollow flat earth full of reptoid overlords who shot Kennedy and arranaged for 9/11.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I think it's sad...

...that in threads on topics like this people have to resort to insults.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. When people suggest taking away the single greatest advance in dentistry
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 03:39 PM by cgrindley
since the invention of brushing... insults are all the opposition deserve. It's too important of an issue to even be up for debate. To me, it's akin to asking whether or not the vote should be taken away from women. Well.... maybe not that akin... but sort of similar.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Floridation is good when applied topically but not so good when taken internally.
Read the warning lable on any tube of toothpaste. Also no doctor would arbitrarily prescribe Floride to you in the doses that are put into the water. There is tremendous information on the detriments of floridation as well as the benefits. Why force all to do what you can do on your own.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Only an idiot is for floridation of the water supply
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 09:50 AM by Mika
they are the same sort of moron who simultaneously disbelieves in vaccinations and yet believes in a hollow flat earth full of reptoid overlords who shot Kennedy and arranaged for 9/11.

:sarcasm:

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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. At least I'm an idiot with some teeth still in my head
you want more apple sauce there, pops?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. LOL! That is pretty comical.
my boys are 12 and 10 years old and have never had flouride treatments or flouridated water. The fact that they never have soda, rarely candy, and have good oral hygiene has more to do with the fact that neither has EVER had a cavity.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. You do realize that fluoride is a poison right? n/t
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 03:48 PM by MiltonF
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You realize that people need teeth, right?
PURITY OF ESSENCE!
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I have never drank fluoride water, nor used fluoride toothpaste and have all my teeth.
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 03:47 PM by MiltonF
I am 33 years old and my dentist says my teeth are perfect, I brush 3 times a day and floss nothing else is needed.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You =/= everyone
do you know other people?
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Why should I ingest poison because someone is unwilling to brush after each meal and floss?
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
66. Myth: Fluoride accumulates in the body and causes a form of poisoning.
Myth: Fluoride accumulates in the body and causes a form of poisoning.

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/flu_facts_myths.a...

Fact: Fluoride is not toxic and is classified by the National Research Council as an important trace ion in tooth nutrition.
It is an all-natural element similar to other common substances like salt, iron and vitamins.
No adverse side effects
have been experienced by the millions of people who have drunk fluoridated water at optimum levels for over 50 years.

Myth: Fluoridation is mass medication by the government.

Fact: Fluoride is not a medicine. Under government control, municipal water supplies already contain other elements
designed to make water safe to drink. Fluoride is found in water, soda, beer, juices, tea, and other products consumed
by hundreds of millions of people around the world daily. Picture one inch in 16 miles of roadway if you want to
appreciate how small the amount of fluoride is needed in water to prevent tooth decay.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
64. How did you manage to avoid it?
# Fluoride is a mineral that occurs in almost all food and water supplies and comes from the element
fluorine, the 13th most abundant element in the earth's crust. It exists only in combination with
other elements as a fluoride compound.

# Fluoride is all-natural and is found in rocks and water. It acts as nature's cavity-fighter the
same way naturally occurring drugs have produced medicines that protect human health.

# While fluoride opponents have garnered much publicity in recent years, none of their claims have
ever been proved.

# More than 65 major national and international medical, scientific, dental, and public health
organizations have endorsed fluoride, including such world-renowned institutions as the American
Dental Association, the American Medical Association, the Mayo Clinic, the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention, the American School Health Association, the Center for Science in the Public
Interest, the National Health Council, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Cancer
Institute, Great Britain's Ministry of Health, the Canadian Public Health Association, and the World
Health Organization.

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/flu_facts_facts.a...

-----------------

BTW?

# 26 - Portland,OR - Pop.503,637 - Not Fluoridated*** ---

*** Portland (Oregon) and Honolulu (Hawaii) are not fluoridated, however legislation has
been introduced in both states legislatures that will mandate fluoridation in all cities.


----------

Fluoride Myths Versus Facts

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/pdfs/MYTHSvsfacts...

Myth: Opponents have scientific facts and major dental and health organizations supporting their claims.

Fact: Many of these organized groups use issues such as freedom-of-choice and anti-pollution
arguments to try to win over voters and turn fluoridation into a political issue instead of a health
issue. Anti-fluoridationists use scare tactics to spread false, irrelevant, and misleading
information - often from obscure journals or publications - to try to raise doubts in voters' minds.
Fluoride supporters are backed by major health and dental groups, including the American Dental
Association, the American Medical Association, the Mayo Clinic, the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, the Center for Science in the Public Interest, the National Health Council, the National
Academy of Sciences, the National Cancer Institute, and the World Health Organization.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Too much dihydrogen monoxide can kill you too. Ban dihydrogen monoxide!
Too much of many things is a poison, how about sodium chloride? That is a poison also. A little is good, too much is not.

I understand people being suspicious of fluoride, and of public health things by the government. But, as a public health measure, fluoride has helped prevent much tooth decay and many health problems. Get a cavity, fill it if you can afford to. Eventually the weakened tooth may break again. Each time there is potential for infection, abcesses, etc.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. Add fluoride your dihydrogen monoxide and you will die with half the ingestion.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
95. Only an idiot with absolutely no understanding of organic chemistry would even post that.
Try looking at the periodic table. Hell, try reading the label on your toothpaste.

Topical application is generally effective in children (teeth still developing), internal consumption is bad for you.

Just one example of why it is not a good idea, in an article in the Journal of the American Dental Association revealed that Grand Rapids, Michigan, whose water supplies were fluoridated in 1945, showed 23% tooth mottling among children as the result of fluoridation. Allen London, D.D.S. stated "dental fluorosis now has the largest incidence of any waterborne disease in the United States. Since mottling is permanent disfigurement, and there is an unending accretion of new cases in all fluoridated water areas, it is only with time that we can witness the full tale of this affliction."



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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Being Colorado Springs born and raised
I fall right into this category mentioned in the wikipedia article:

"While the use of fluorides for prevention of dental caries was discussed in the 19th century in Europe,<6> community water fluoridation in the United States owes its origin in part to the research of Dr. Frederick McKay, who pressed the dental community for an investigation into what was then known as "Colorado brown stains."<7> In 1909, of the 2,945 children seen by Dr. McKay, 87.5% had some degree of stain or mottling. All the affected children were from the Pikes Peak region. Despite having a negative impact on the physical appearance of their teeth, the children with stained or mottled teeth also had fewer cavities than other children. McKay brought the problem to the attention of Dr. G.V. Black, and Black's interest into the Colorado stain led to greater interest throughout the dental profession."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_flouridation#History

When I was about 14 my mom reminded my dentist to give me a fluoride treatment. He asked "was he born here?" When my mom said yes he said there's no need for a fluoride treatment because "Colorado Springs kids have teeth like rocks because all the porous spaces are filled in with fluoride". Yes, my teeth are brown but I've never had a cavity and there's no sign of wear on them. They're as sharp as ever. So yes, I think putting fluoride in the water is a perfectly fine idea.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Tough call - I grew up with it, and have great teeth, but my sister
who was born right before we moved to a town that did not fluoridate, has more epoxy than enamel in her mouth. :)

Based on that anecdotal evidence (a sample of one family), it seems to be safe.

I once dated a girl whose family was in the water treatment business, and - believe it or not - our biggest fight was over whether the water should be fluoridated. I said yes, it worked great for me. She said no, fluoride is a deadly chemical.

I pointed out that so is chlorine, and we (most of us) welcome that in the water supply. We also used bromide to treat the water when I was in the Navy (if we had to make freshwater while in a foreign harbor). That is a deadly chemical and we had to take great precautions to keep from touching it while we poured it in the water we would later be drinking.

So, it seems that the argument that something is a dangerous chemical does not automatically mean that we don't want it in the water supply. It may be better than the alternative.

If I remember right from my research during our argument, most dentists highly recommend it as a tooth decay preventive measure.

As far as the government having the right - put in on a ballot. Let the people decide.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. And then there's this on the subject from
one of our most notorious Generals:

General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.
General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.
General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No, I don't think I do, sir, no.
General Jack D. Ripper: He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
90. Thanks for posting that
I only drink rain water and grain alcohol :)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. Public health may want somethings in and somethings out.
Pure water, I.E. with ion concentrations of distilled water, doesn't occur naturally anywhere in the US. So item one is going to be getting control of the semantics of "pure water" vs. "natural water."

Protecting water quality in distribution pipes usually means filtering and adding at least a disinfectant (historically chlorine).

Protecting public health also means making sure there are proper things in the water to support health. Floridation has been one of those activities. There is a long history of its use, the data are out there to make an informed judgement.

Protecting public water ALSO MEANS REMOVING HEALTH THREATS from natural water. 500,000 Wisconsinites who had cryptosporidial diarrhea in a single month from drinking water drawn from Lake Michigan can attest to the importance of this.

In addition to biological threats in "natural" water there are also various non-biological threats.

In the Milwaukee suburbs exposure to radioactive mineral contamination in public drinking water is a huge water quality problem with "natural water."

In Texas there are communities with extremely high sodium levels that are concerns.

Don't accept that "natural" water is "pure" and free of health concerns until you get several lab reports.

I doubt any city informed of the health risks of "natural" water would want to commit to its distribution via pulically owned water works without some conditioning of the water.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why can't it be a personal Choice?
people could fluoridate their own water is they chose.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. No. They can't reliably...
I'm a dentist and would not want to be involved in that for my own family. Regulating the dosage is exceedingly complicated with respect to flowing tap water. And expensive.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yes...nt
Sid
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
13. "Mandrake, we need to preserve our precious bodily fluids."
:P
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
14. I am a dentist,, a former university professor,
and acutely aware of the issues here.

While I sympathize with those who are, often rightfully, suspicious of food additives and the like, the poster here from Colorado made the singularly best argument for fluoridation. Please let me add that people raised in Colorado, certain portions of Texas, and other areas which have high endemic fluoide in the water, have no higher pathology involving their organ systems than anywhere else in the US.

The morbidity and mortality (if you are unsure of that phrase, look it up) of NOT fluoridating the water is actually reasonably high. It is a very complex issue and I want to tell you that we lead better and longer from an actuaral and epidemiological standpoint due to fluoridation. Period.

It is wise to understand that over the years, the anti-fluoridationists have generally been associated with the extreme right-wing, John Birch society types. Strange that in our lifetimes, the RW is all over us for government monitoring and the Left is now calling for hands-off.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I suspect that's because fluoridation is a commie plot.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. ...and the last Commie in the Western Hemisphere
Fidel Castro, doesn't seem to care much at this time.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. "International Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 10:17 AM by faygokid
Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?

Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.

Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?

Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.

Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?

Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no.

Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. no to floride - it even makes toilet parts wear out fast

how fast does it wear out your insides?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. first you better learn to spell it right...FLUORIDE
and that's a lot of crap about your toilet...

no pun intended...
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. tell that to the plumber that just fixed my toilet

he told me.

why are you so hostile?
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Because he is a dentist and has been educated in the benefits of fluoride even if it kills you. n/t
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 03:47 PM by MiltonF
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. That's a remark reserved for 'the other site'.
It is wishing great illness upon masses of people. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Children who drink water with fluoride are more likely
to have ADHD, autism and dental flourorsis. On the other hand water without fluoride just causes cavities in those who do not brush their teeth regularly, which would you rather have, children fucked in the brain or children fucked in the mouth?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. To see you and raise you one...
Bullshit.

However, you are not worth an ad hominem attack which is banned here for good reason. Nice language, BTW...
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Yes of course the only way you can respond to children with ADHD and Autism
is through and ad hominem attack.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. your argument is fallacious...
it has nothing to do with autistic kids and you know that. That's a straw-man argument and is untrue.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. But didn't they teach you in your dental school
that their is a higher rate of Autism in children who drink fluoridated water? Shit I thought Dental Fluorosis would be enough for a Dental Practitioner to admit there is a problem with adding something that is not needed to water.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. No...
b/c there isn't...is there a significantly higher incidence in Texas and Colorado? They have fluorosis - look that up in your Funk and Wagnall's - that's where you have so much fluoride that your teeth get mottled. No there isnt'.

You are just plain wrong. Just stop pretending, please. It's painful to those of us who speak with competence.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. link to the claim that children who drink fluoridated water have higher rate of autism.
It would be nice to have a link showing causality too, but that might be a bit much. I've heard both these statements but have never found a reliable source. If you have one, I'd be glad to see it.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. don't bother
I have seen absolutely not a single shred of peer reviewed, scientifically credible work on this subject.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. The only links I've ever seen are to places that don't qualify as credible
More along the line of repeating "it's bad for you". I keep hoping someone sometime will come up with something along the line of peer reviewed, scientifically credible work.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #75
83. Me too! I'd love to see something like that.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
79. No, YOU should be ashamed of YOURself!!! n/t
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
48. Why?
Because people are advocating public health policy who do not know one damned thing about the field.

Sorry, but I didn't go to school for 4 years, practice with enlightened and brilliant public health people of all stripes and backgrounds for 30 years to have someone tell me that their plumber told them about it and everyone else is wrong.


I repeat the morbidity and mortality of non-fluoridation is enormous.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
82. Why were you dumping Fluoride down your toilet?
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. I never said that - Fluoride is put in Fl. drinking water

nt
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. My parents toilets in Florida
haven't been destroyed by the Floridian fluorinated water. And, last I checked, they had normal porcelain bowls.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
71. Are you made of metal or porcelain?
No?

Then it's not a valid comparison, is it?
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. We've already established the principal of adding or subtracting
chemicals to water to benefit our health. After all, I could make the arguement that we need to have all those microorganisms in our water to provide a continuous challenge to our immune systems and that the governmnet is wrong to be adding chlorine to kill those microorganisms.

That said, it is not in the nature of science to give a final answer. There are questions about the use of chlorine, so awater systems are reexmining how it is used. Oddly enough, there are also sound reasons to question the use of fluoride in the water. from what I know, it's a question of dose as much as anything else.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. 1 ppm fluoride standard dose...
makes all the difference.

Many places have that endemically.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks - I don't have the article in front of me, but some feel that
fluoridated toothpaste and fluoride rinses take care of the problem. Of course, that opinion doesn't address the fact that not every kid has parents who can afford toothpaste of any kind!

In any case, not every proposal to reconsider fluoride comes from the John Birch Society.

BTW - since tooth enamel does do a limited amount of self repair, does any one have any idea whether fluoride benefits adult teeth?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I just wish someone would actually read the posts
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 11:46 AM by PCIntern
rather than skim them. What I said was that in the old days, the RWers were the anti-fluoridationsists and the LWers were pro-public health. 'Cause that what it is...public health.

Enamel only self-repairs in a fluoridated environment. It's complex, I hate to tell you. It really is.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Which confirms my supposition that the flouride isn't just for kids.
I just wanted to let people know that there is ongoing research and discussion in the scientific community regarding optimum doses.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. And we should adhere to the standards of dosing established and scientifically
proven to be of benefit.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. Hell no. Florida has enough influence as it is.
Now, when it comes to fluoridation, well, I'm totally for that.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Where will the fertilizer industry dump its toxic waste?
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 12:06 PM by DemGa
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #26
80. Yeah...isn't it great....we get to pay for them poisoning us...causing hip fractures, brittle bones,
etc. It really pisses me off.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. Seeing the two-tone yellow teeth of Vietnamese immigrants makes me want to say "yes"....
... water should be flUoridated.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
40. No.
Absolutely not.

If the government is that concerned about rotten teeth, they could offer free, regular, voluntary flouride treatments for all.

<snip>

Key Findings - Water Fluoridation & Tooth Decay :

1) The addition of fluoride to water for the purpose of preventing tooth decay began in the 1940s with the belief that fluoride's primary benefit came from ingestion of fluoride during the tooth-forming years. It is now acknowledged by the dental research community, however, that fluoride's primary benefit comes from topical contact with teeth, and not from ingestion as previously assumed. It is also now acknowledged that fluoride is ineffective at preventing tooth decay in the pits & fissures of teeth - where the majority of decay occurs.


http://fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/fluoridati...
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. just to balance the so called "experts"
"When historians come to write about this period, they will single out fluoridation as the single biggest mistake in public policy that we've ever had."

- Paul Connett, PhD, Biochemistry

"Water fluoridation is the single largest case of scientific fraud, promoted by the government, supported by taxpayer dollars, aided and abetted by the ADA and the AMA, in the history of the planet."

- David Kennedy, DDS President International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology

"Sodium fluoride is a registered rat poison and roach poison. It has been a protected pollutant for a very long time."

- William Hirzy, PhD President of the Union of Professional Employees of the EPA

"sodium fluoride is a very toxic chemical, acting as an enzyme poison, direct irritant and calcium inactivator ... .It reacts with growing tooth enamel and with bones to produce irreversible damage."

- Granville Knight, MD president of the American Academy of Nutrition
Congressional Record, 31 July 56

"I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs. Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable."

- Charles Gordon Heyd, MD, president, AMA

"no physician in his right mind would hand to his patient a bottled filled with a dangerous drug with instructions to take as much or as little of it as he wished ... And yet, the Public Health Service is engaged upon a widespread propaganda program to insist that communities do exactly that ... The purpose of administering fluoride is not to render the water supply pure and potable but to contaminate it with a dangerous, toxic drug for the purpose of administering mass medication to the consumer, without regard to age or physical condition."

- L. Alesen, MD, president of the California Medical Association
Robotry, p14

"Fluoridation is the greatest fraud that has ever been perpetrated and it has been perpetrated on more people than any other fraud has."

- Albert Schatz, PhD Nobel Laureate for discovering streptomycin
quoted in Sutton's Fluoridation:The Greatest Fraud

"More people have died in the last 30 years from cancer connected with fluoridation than all the military deaths in the entire history of the United States."

- Dean Burk, PhD National Cancer Institute -- Fluoridation:A Burning Controversy

"Fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud of this century, if not of all time."
- EPA scientist, Dr. Robert Carton (Downey, 2 May 99)
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. Mandrake! Its a commie plot!
Ripper: Mandrake?
Mandrake: Yes, Jack?
Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?
Mandrake: Well, I can't say I have.
Ripper: Vodka, that's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that's what they drink, Jack, yes.
Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack.
Ripper: Water, that's what I'm getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?
Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord!
Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake: Yes.
Ripper: Are you beginning to understand?
Mandrake: Yes.
Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?
Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.
Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?
Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.
Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?
Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no.
Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
45. LOL, I just mentioned the anti-floridation nuts in the latest GMOs thread.
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 04:40 PM by Odin2005
:rofl:
Only ignorant morans, conspiracy nuts, and paranoid fools are against floridation.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
47. I thought the John Birch Society was defunct.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. "a lot of evidence" What a crock of shit....
He can carry his water in a pail from the creek and get Giardia from the bears crapping in it.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
52. Are you just trying to get people pissed at each other?
Dang, this issue just comes up and comes up and people fling insults back and forth and nothing ever EVER gets resolved, or even moves forward.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. There's nothing to move...
and yes, I believe that returning people to the dental stone age and increasing their risk of significant disease is dangerous and worth mentioning if someone has the temerity to challenge the fluoridation of public drinking water.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
54. No way...to poison most to protect some is not a way to fight cavaties
sorry...the rich now have water filters to filter out flouride..the poor must continue to drink it!
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. I don't consider me nor my friends poisoned
and we all grew up with fluoridated water.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I grew up with fluoridated water also...as did the people of Love Canal
grow up with their poison. Since fluoridation asthma, cancer, diabetes, and a host of other chronic diseases have sprung up??? a coincidence? ya think?
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. Love Canal
Didn't that place have a whole lot more chemicals than just a 7ppm fluoridation issue? How can you just blame it on fluoride? Colorado Springs doesn't have problems like that and we have some of the highest fluoridation in the country because it's naturally in our water supply.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. These folks don't want to listen to you Colorado
b/c you disprove by counter-example.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Don't be so sure
I mean, look at me:



While fluoride has had its negative effects on my development, including the noticeable brown stains on my teeth, you must admit that my teeth are quite healthy aside from the cosmetic angle.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Holy crap! Did you just compare the Love Canal to fluoride??!!!
Wow. Hyperbolic to the max!
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
84. No, no, you've got it all wrong.
Those conditions have all sprung up since the modern tampon was invented. Coincidence? I think not! So therefore, completely solid logic says - BAN TAMPONS! :crazy:
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
59. Hmmm... according to Wikipedia...
Only 10% of Britons have fluoridinated water. And the stereotype of Britian is a nation with an epidemic of bad teeth.

Apparantly in most of Europe, they have fluoridinated salt in lieu of fluoridinated water supplies. Maybe we should do that here, have iodized, fluoridized table salt instead.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. The Brits also consume lots of sugar! I've read that the sugar
consumption is a big problem with the health of their teeth. I'm no scientist or dentist....just something I've read.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Wouldn't it be nice if things were that easy...
salt use is highly variable and do you want your kids using huge amounts of salt? That's real healthy...a whole populus with pediatric congestive heart failure.

Now that's the same logic that the anti-fluoridationists use...salt use equals congestive heart failure.

Fun, isn't it?
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
67. You know, every day DU continues to amaze me on these topics.
:banghead:

Chemtrails, UFOs, vaccines causing mercury...what else have I missed?
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #67
88. A couple of others
But mentioning them will this thread moved.

Actually, it should be in the Lounge or the CT dungeon.
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
74. Absolutely not.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
77. Like debating the need for water to be clean.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
78. Floridated?
No, I don't want flowers in my drinking water.

I also don't want to import drinking water from Florida.

However, I'm fine with fluoridated water; it's good for your teeth.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. Ya think we'll get DU'zy's for these three posts?
Yours, 81 & 85?

Were we the only ones who caught the Floride?
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
81. Is Florida really so dated?
Oh, you mean Fluoride!
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
85. No Floridians in the drinking water!
"All you Floridians, out of the reservoir, NOW!"


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
86. What you got against Florida?
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
89. i wonder if flouride is contributing to national stupidity.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Seems that way....
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Highway61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
92. Correction
It's Fluoride, goodness, don't let this person see that! Yikes!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


My response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
96. Floridated and then Mississipped?
Maybe there are places in Alaska where the water is clean enough
to drink without some kind of low-concentration disinfectant, but
in the lower 48, as well as almost everywhere here in Central Europe,
I want fluoridation to continue.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-01-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
97. I'm so happy to own a well.
I didn't realize that support for a states "right" to cram unneccesary medications down our throats was so widely supported. This isn't like a vaccine, which is intended to suppress communicable disease. From an ethical perspective, this is no different than abortion. I am king over my own body. Period. Without exception.
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