Baby Boomers: Why do so many lack real computer skills?

[OzarkDem]

I've noticed this problem in activism over the last several years and more recently in running my business in the last year.

The majority of college educated people in my general age group (late 40's to mid 50's) have little or no basic computer skills. They don't know how to send emails, look things up on the internet, use Outlook, create a spreadsheet, handle basic computer graphics, create a database or do anything more than type a basic letter in Word.

Some manage to get along in good paying jobs, though I don't know how. And many women that we counsel and assist can't find decent jobs because their skills haven't grown since the 1960's. In the last year, I've hired 2 people, both with advanced degrees, who can't do more than type a letter in Word and print it. Both had taken computer classes and worked in previous jobs that required them to use computers. I'm on the verge of firing them both right now because I'm either having to do their jobs for them or spend most of my time showing them how to do the most basic tasks.

One employee was assigned to develop press releases about our company and program for 4 different cities in the state and send them to the major media outlets in each area. One month later, I had to finish the job myself. They spend half the day screwing up their email system, deleting stuff from the network and messing up their connection to the office printers. I spend the rest of the day fixing it all only to see them come in the next day and do it again.

Half the activists in our local political groups can't stay engaged because they don't know how to retrieve or read emails or (this one seems to be hardest) download attachments. They want us to print and mail everything to them.

With the economy taking a nosedive, I fear many people (especially women) my age are going to see drastic reductions in their incomes as they end up with jobs in retail or food service. I have a liberal arts degree, but am self taught in computers and IS. I took the time to use my computer for more than shopping online and learned networking, database development, desktop publishing, web site development, etc.

Anyone else run into this problem or have an idea of how to solve it? Maybe its the area I live in (traditionally a very blue collar area. I'm convinced many people would be better informed voters and more politically active if they knew how to use their computer, get email and surf the internet.

[Triana]

1. Excuse me? I'm in that age group and...

I was in IT for 20+ years - SELF TAUGHT. My computer skills are fine. AND I'm a woman. First computer was a 'Trash-80' (TRS-80).

You might want to be careful with those generalizations.

You might want to also realize that in comparision to 26-year olds, people "our" age were NOT born with computers under their fingers like the 20-somethings now.

That is to say, we didn't START using them till our 20s because THEY WEREN'T THERE to use.

[OzarkDem]

5. We're rare

I wouldn't have believed it, either, until I got involved in grassroots activism and worked with volunteers, then started my own business and hired people.

I was and am truly shocked. I keep thinking its a matter of odds, that I'll eventually come across people with computer skills, but its still very rare. I've also been disappointed to find people will lie about their skill level and you don't find out until after they're hired that they don't even know, say, basic keyboarding skills or how to import a document to a file.

Its been a real eye opener.

[Triana]

14. To find women in that age group who are computer literate is even rarer...

...I'm afraid. And that IS sad. The (IS/IT/high-tech) industry is NOT friendly to women of ANY age and that doesn't help, so consider that too.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying, but if *I* could get as far as I have since the 80's (and having the female thing against me all that time - and still) others can/could have too, so don't generalize too awful much.

Good luck finding some more mature computer geeks. I KNOW they're out there! I can think of three of them who are friends of mine without even trying!

[OzarkDem]

35. I am in awe of women like you

My husband works in IT as a consultant and I've always been impressed by the women he works with who "bootstrapped" themselves into high ranking jobs in the field. He's worked with a couple of women who were in their 60's in VP level jobs - just amazing. They are fantastic and the accomplishments they've achieved are impressive.

[DavidMS]

50. I have worked with some women in IT

Many of them are very, very good. Unfortunately, women either seem to cluster into help desk type jobs or are the best one in the department to figure out what broke. The ones who are not in helpdesk tend to be very knowledgeable and willing to share what they know.

[Breeze54]

71. Women on help desks know their stuff!

I worked for a large nationally well known company that favors MEN!!

In a room of over 100 MALE techs, I was one of FOUR women!! And this was in the north east,

where technology companies and schools abound! They would hire 'newbies' (20 yr olds) and give

them the better hours, after they were trained etc. Trust me, I know because I trained THEM

and then watched them get MY hours!! I watched while the company walked into another dept.

and fired all 50 of the e-commerce people on the spot! When outsourcing became so rampant, the

tech companies were hiring CS Engineers, at really low pay, for the help desk jobs, because the

engineers were out of work and cheap and then booting the former workers into help desk support

or customer service. Don't go trashing women! It's the companies causing that!!

[shanti]

86. dunno about college educated boomers

but the non-college educated boomers that i know ARE very non computer oriented. i know several. that said, my 70+ year old parents are very computer literate. in fact, my mother had a computer before i did (late 90's). i made up for lost time tho, and i'm totally self-taught

i can't imagine my life without my puter now!

[HeeBGBz]

177. I'm 53 and my computer is my friend

It's an essential part of my life and what I know, I taught myself. Except for one beginner programing class.

I want to try to go back to school if things work out.

[shraby]

7. I was in my late 40's/early 50's when I

got a computer.

[notadmblnd]

23. ditto 28 years in IT here

form operating legacy mainframes to installing servers on the raised floor. and I'm still currently unemployed. Maybe the OP is getting what she pays for?

[OzarkDem]

37. By non-profit standards

we pay pretty well and the skills we're expecting are fairly minimal. I can't imagine any job out there these days that pays at this level that doesn't require some computer knowledge as part of the job. Our employees aren't hired to be computer experts, but mid level management jobs in community services, education and outreach. They need the skills to enter client information in a database, manage a project budget and generate basic reports as well as be able to communicate via email and send press releases.

[notadmblnd]

61. every shop is unique and no matter the skill level

there will be a learning curve. Basic functions of the tasks required should be documented step by step in a procedures manual along with common problems and error messages (I've also written manuals and trained new hires). Some of the basic MS applications are not user friendly and if the task is not performed repetitively, well, those skills fall to the wayside. Power point, Word and Excel are applications I can muddle my way through. But don't ask me about Access unless I'm sitting with the manual. With the exception of Outlook, most companies have their own templates for forms, so even monkeys could be trained to plug in data. I don't know how long these people have been with you, or if you're just annoyed because they come to you with too many questions that prevent you from doing your job. But if procedures were put in place, it might relieve some of your stress? Being a 48 year old female who worked for 28 years in IT (I stopped working when my husband died) who plans on re-entering the workforce in the next year, I too found your remarks generalizing older women, to be offensive. I don't know how old you are but I will say; that what I find lacking in many young people today are basic social skills. I think maybe they've all spent so much time honing their tech skills and have become so arrogant that they are unable to communicate effectively with out offending people.

[OzarkDem]

72. I think in both cases

They "misrepresented" their computer skills. We don't require a great deal of skill,pretty minimal actually, but have a job description that requires they have good knowledge of certain software, e.g. know how to use a basic mailing list in Excel and be able to create, mail or email a letter to the people on that list. My idea is to hire people who already know how to read an error message and troubleshoot their way through a problem. Right now it looks like I need to spend six figures to find someone who can do a mail merge. Heck, I know how to do mail merge and I don't make six figures.

[jkshaw]

59. Triana, excuse me is right!

I BABYSAT the baby boomer generation and have been using the computer as a word processor since the 1970s and the Internet since 1990, as soon as I discovered Netscape could get me the news from (at that time) from England, Europe, and even Japan. What an eye-opener that was!

Triana, you should have seen the first computer I used. A relic made by the USU Electrical Engineering department. If memory serves, it was the size of an office refrigerator lying on its side, and took 8" disks. I have the first few chapters of a book on them, but can't read them, and it would cost too much to do a translation that doesn't even guarantee that it would work. Besides, I had it all printed out with a dot matrix printer.

Fun to think back on -- ancient history.

[SoCalDem]

2. I am in that age group and am self-taught..

I have a friend who spent a ton of money on a new laptop and has it full of trojan horses.. She asked me what to do.. I said, pay someone to fix it, and keep your dauighter away from myspace & youtube..

I think that people are aways more comfortable with things they grew up with.. people our age did not grow up with computers.. some of us are interested enough to try and learn it, and others are intimidated by them

Maybe you need to stress computer literacy FIRST as a prerequisite, and not hire people withour proof they can perform

[OzarkDem]

8. That's my next step

After I get rid of these two (and I hate to do it, they're nice people), I'm going to actually require people to take a test on the computer to judge their skills. It seems really silly to make degreed professionals do that, but that's what its come to.

[SoCalDem]

13. Or hire them on a 30 day "probation".. That way they know they have to be

up to snuff on skills or they will be out the door.. As long as you spell it out and have them sign the 'contract" or whatever, you should be within your rights to let them go if they cannot cut it..

You should be sure to spell out carefully, just what you expect them to know.. just saying "computer skills" is too vague, and can be misunderstood.. They may THINK they ARE skilled, because you don't know what you don't know

or hire from a temp agency and then keep the ones who can cut the mustard

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

3. I'm 52, am mostly self-taught,

AND own my own computer repair business.

It's true, though- 99% of the people who use computers are aware of less than 1% of the things that can be done with them...

[OzarkDem]

11. Thanks, I'm so relieved

I was beginning to think I was crazy. Somehow I think if people work in a large office they're able to get by and hide the fact that their skills are limited. They must rely on others to do their work for them.

You folks in the younger generation must be having to pick up the slack for the others.

[NJCher]

139. maybe they need mentors

99% of the people who use computers are aware of less than 1% of the things that can be done with them...
I'm a boomer who was introduced to computers by geekish friends. Good-hearted ones, too, who took the time and trouble to help me through my initial learning curve. I remember two things my CM (computer mentor) said to me.

One was that I should "pay it forward" by helping someone else. That I have done, many times over.

The other was that I would soon be on my way to becoming a "power user." When I asked what that was, he said it was someone who was not just knowledgeable about the computer, but who found endless fascination in finding ways to make it work for them in all aspects of their life.
When I hear stories like this, it makes me wonder if these people the OP is talking about might have become more proficient had they had a mentor like I did.

My mentor is gone now--he passed over last year from cancer, but I know he's probably at work now on computerizing the Akashic records.



Cher

[shraby]

4. My guess is most of them haven't found

anything to use computers for at home where they could develop other skills on one. There just isn't that much to do with a computer in the home besides surf the net and email friends. I had to actively look for a use for mine when I first got one. I learned to make a web page then found something useful to put on it. I put genealogy online for everyone with ancestors in the county I live in which takes a multitude of different computer skills.

[NJCher]

140. are you kidding?

I'm setting one up to shut off the water sprinklers around my property!

Don't even get me started.




Cher

[mitchtv]

6. Those dammned old people

Computer skills a relatively new to people who have lived and worked a lifetime. You said Blue collar area? maybe they had to work and raise a family for the last 30 yrs. I find your post incredibly condescending

[OzarkDem]

16. Both actually worked in government funded programs

in the area of health care and social services. They had good paying jobs.

About half of the attorneys in our Dem activist groups don't know how to read or send emails. You have to call them on the phone or send them a letter.

On edit: I worry a lot about these people. I work helping a lot of women who are sick, helping them pay bills, etc and find new jobs after they get well. They face huge barriers both from the disease they had (cancer) and finding good paying jobs to support themselves.

[Lindsey]

41. I'm almost in the category of the people you're describing...

probably a step up. I just turned 50 one month ago. I'm fine with email, MS word, finding anything on the internet but I don't know excel, powerpoint, etc. Why? Because I received my college degree when I was 41 y.o. in 1998 (after raising a bi-polar, very difficult child) and only needed to get myself around a word processing program for my papers in school. When I graduated, I was already at a management level (having worked my way up even w/o my degree). I admit, I normally have support staff doing the "fancy" computer stuff because I have to focus on dealing with things like a young lady who's husband is beating her and I'm trying to find a shelter for her to live in, or I'm trying to help a young man get a job because he's be in jail for 10 years and there are almost no resources available,....that's what I've been doin'......

[OzarkDem]

49. I hear you

there's more shrinkage in funding in these fields and some of the first things to go are support staff. Federal funding, foundation grants, etc. are declining. In our office you have to do the intake, talk to clients and manage the data you get from them, too. Our caseload isn't too high and the computers, software and programs are all top notch so its pretty easy to do.

[depakid]

9. Yeah, but they still know how to add

and do basic arithmetic.

[mitchtv]

21. and I'll bet they know where

Iran and Iraq are in the map. Being attorneys, I'll bet they can write some mean letters, too

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I could explain this to you in small words

but I shan't

The problem is there... but the problem is there because computers are in many ways still magical to many users of the 30 and agove group... and it gets worst as people age.

Hell, my mom uses her computer... fairly well for a seventy something, and we help an eighty something with her needs from time to time

But the problem is that kids grow up with them... but for many in our generation computers are still pretty alien

As to self taught, had to... and I still don't know how to put together a dbase, since I don't have the need to do that.

How good are you at programing a CCS website? How about using Corel draw for art?

I could go on...

And windows doesn't make it easier either... many folks I know would have given up on their new shiny vista machines a while ago... due to OS problems, serious enough that my next laptop will be a mac... period

[warren pease]

117. Yup, you got it...

Kids today, at least the more affluent ones, get a PC when they're in Kindergarten. In contrast, we elder folks had to learn all on our own at times in life when learning new things isn't quite as easy as when you're five or six years old.

I grew up with manual typewriters (born 1950). College wasn't much better; they had a primitive computer lab, but only the CS and EE students were allowed to use it. It wasn't until I started working at newspapers in the late-'70s, early '80s that I had to learn to use their systems, which were also stone-age by today's standards, but at least I got my feet wet.

Everything I know now -- which is quite a bit for a technophobe -- I taught myself or had shown to me by somebody who knew how this stuff worked. Programming's still above my head, except for very fundamental html coding, but I'm a pretty good user.

And yes to the Mac. I'm typing this on a year-old MacBook running OS X v4.10 -- maxed out with memory and the fastest CPU available at the time. Right next to it is an H-P laptop running Windows XP Pro. Windows sucks in several important ways compared to the Mac -- filing system, navigation, fast availability of applications being my main three. Windows is a nice try, but the Mac, particularly with OS X, is just a killer machine.

I'd like to try Linux one of these days. I agree philosophically with Richard Stallman and the FSF's concept of free and open software. Of course, I'm not a developer; if I were, I might regard intellectual property and patents differently.

But for now, the Mac is it. Nothing else even close.

And btw, acquaintances who work at a software company whose initials are MS tell me that they wouldn't touch Vista until the next service pack is available. I've no idea if that's valid or not; just passing on what I've heard.


wp

[NJCher]

141. it's valid

It sucks. Stay the hell away from it until the Service Pack comes out and oh btw, they're saying a year. Nadin (above) has had horrendous problems with it, too. I laughed when she said "Mac" because after my Vista experience I am thinking the same thing.

I am putting in two new systems--one is Linux and the other will be a Mac.



Cher

[sandnsea]

12. I have those skills

guess what, nobody cares. Although, I do get annoyed in business when everybody wants to fax stuff because email is so much easier, I agree with you there. I like having the documents stored on my computer, I don't know why more people don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I hope you also back up regularly.

I have my novel on two physical computer hard drives and one thumb drive

And have to put it on a third for my sanity soon

[depakid]

29. Now you've hit on my pet peeve

My FAX machine finally died about 5 years ago. Didn't replace it, because I figured everyone could just scan things and send them as attachments. Yet people and businesses still keep wanting to FAX things.

It's impressive how many people still can't (or won't) do this simple task....

[Mythsaje]

15. I've been trying for several years to get my father

more computer literate. Part of it is because he's afraid of messing something up (rather difficult unless you do something really, really stupid), or because he's afraid of identity theft. He's in his sixties, and had a very good idea his whole life that this was coming in one form or another. He's the one who got me into sci-fi, after all.

I'm mostly self-taught myself. By the time I was in college I rejected any notion of taking computer classes because I wasn't willing to spend 11 weeks learning something I could teach myself in a matter of three or four. I don't have the patience for that. There are, as a result, a few holes in my knowledge, but I have worked with every major operating system from DOS to XP (my wife has Vista but I haven't explored it yet) as well as gaining some familiarity with Macs (I've used System 7, at least) and even (how many people can say THIS?) Amiga. I miss Amiga.

Not to mention self-taught in every version of Word since the early days, FrontPage, Paint Shop, and several other programs. I'm good at learning, and at teaching myself. At one time I even knew how to use Excel, though I really had no use for it and have since forgotten a lot of what I knew. I can put together a Powerpoint Presentation as well, should I have the need. Databases mean nothing to me--I have no use for them.

I'm 41. I remember when the TRS80 came out. My friends had one and I told them, at the time, "why don't you call me when they can actually DO something useful?"

My first computer was a 386 running at 8 or 12 MhZ. I laugh when I think of that, considering a PDA is now more powerful than it was.

Frankly, I think a lot of it's fear. Fear of trial and error, which is how many of us learn these things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. My first laptop

was a 286 attari... it was 500 something of RAM (OOOHHH) and no hard drive

These days, as you said, my hand held has far more power

As to Vista... if you use MS products you should be ok. After that, I'm batting 500 installing software

[Mythsaje]

24. She spent the first couple days bitching

about how some of her programs didn't want to work right. But with enough finagling, she managed to get it all together. Seems to work for her now.

When I upgrade, probably sometime next year, I'll have to get used to it too.

I'd go mac, but they're just too expensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I'm going MAC becuase I've had it with the

headaches with the gaming machine.

It took six hours to install dreamweaver, and that is not acceptable

It was either mac, or get a basement win machine and just do Linux. It's been years since I did any command line... though I may have to... some of my win software I will use an emulator.

Some of my wrting softare. I've decided not to even try my mapping, I have access to the windows box, even if one of the programs does not work well under VISTA.

If you can wait, they are releasing a new system by 2010... yep they screwed the pooch and they know it

[KatyaR]

67. That right there's a lot of the problem--they're afraid they'll "break something."

My first real job was in a word processing department in the early 80s, using dedicated word processing machines and 8-inch floppies. While I was there, we converted to desktop computers and Word Perfect. Because I was young and caught on quickly, I was tasked to help train our employees. Many of the older women in the department were terrified that something was going to blow up if they hit the wrong button, and it took a lot of time and patience to make them confortable using a computer.

I've found that most people who are not computer literate are terrified of breaking an expensive piece of equipment. It's that simple--get them past that fear, and they will start to learn very quickly. However, I'm still amazed at how many people who use computers at work don't use them at home--I have a very good friend who hardly knows anything about the internet because she "just can't sit still that long."

My first personal computer--a Commodore 64--with TWO floppy drives, a dot-matrix printer, and a 64K modem. I soon found CompuServe, and the world was mine . . . .

Oh, and I'm female, BTW.

[Mythsaje]

150. My wife was running BBSs back in the eighties...

I think it has very little to do with gender.

[xchrom]

17. i'm just glad i can turn this damn thing on and get to DU.

but you do underscore a problem.

we are becoming a specialized econmy - a bit like medicine -- there are surgeons, osteopaths, etc.

the problem with that is there isn't enough diversity in the economy to with stand economic ''colds'' -- and that's a problem -- a big one.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Paint with broad brushes much?

I'm older than dirt, but despite my decrepitude I am able to do all kinds of things with computers (of which I have six, not counting the one at work). So can my 88-year-old dad, who spends much of his time surfing the net and scanning old slides as .jpg files. And I know more than a few people a lot younger than I am who can barely figure out how to turn the damn things on.

[OzarkDem]

28. Not really

As I mentioned in a previous post, I help a lot of people who have lost jobs due to serious illness and try to help them re-enter the workforce. Without computer skills, many really face a lot of problems.

As an employer interviewing people, I see a lot of people who have lost jobs and struggle to find news ones as computer skills become more of a requirement.

[undeterred]

20. I am a 50 yr old female computer tech

and I don't think its quite that bad. But I wish there were more female computer professionals. I did a gig at a technical college recently. They had an excellent networking program- guess what there were 16 young men in it and no women. I taught one class in a "helpdesk" course which was filled with women. The females are self-selecting the lower paying easier part of IT. Not good.

[Nite Owl]

25. Most of the people I know

are very good with email and research on computers. I really don't know anyone who isn't. It's the viruses etc that pose the problem. They get the scans but don't actually run them then get all sorts of bad stuff from letting the kids go to myspace etc.

[Drum]

26. Hmmmph!

Here's something a friend sent on to me only yesterday...well, I think it was yesterday...lemme see....

---

STUNNING SENIOR MOMENT

A very self-important college freshman attending a recent football game, took it upon himself to explain to a senior citizen sitting next to him why it was impossible for the older generation to understand his generation.

"You grew up in a different world, actually an almost primitive one," the student said, loud enough for many of those nearby to hear. "The young people of today grew up with television, jet planes, space travel, man walking on the moon, our spaceships have visited Mars. We have nuclear energy, electric and hydrogen cars, computers with DSL, bsp; light-speed processing ..and,"
pausing to take another drink of beer.

The Senior took advantage of the break in the student's litany and said, "You're right, son. We didn't have those things when we were young.....so we invented them. Now, you arrogant little bastard, what are you doing for the next generation?"

The applause was resounding...

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. :)

[Tunkamerica]

56. That's an old joke that's been updated

who knows how old and which generation it was actually talking about.

[libodem]

27. I'm in that horrible group

I never learned to type very well and always thought computers were 'scary'. In the 90's i bought one for the kids and we were always hooked up to the internet. All the computer terms were mysterious to me RAM, hard drive, floppydisc, megabytes, I still don't know what they mean. I can point and click the mouse and have had some job experience were the computer work was all point and click. My son tried to show me a few things but I couldn't learn from him. He made it look pretty easy but I couldn't figure out what he'd done when I would try it. I think I do need to take a class. I'd give my (something important) to be able to cut and paste so I could put pieces of articles into a post. I even have a scanner/printer, now but I don't understand the photobucket or putting pictures from the scanner on the internet. I'm not a real fast maze learner but used to have an IQ somewhere between 130 and 140 so I'm not stupid. I thought computers were for generation 'X' and I could just avoid them for the rest of my life. Then I nearly became hopelessly insane during the '04 election cycle. After I started to dress and shower again (I'm exaggerating) I heard some Pundit bitching about DU and checked it out. My 20 something made me a computer out of spare parts from around the house and reluctantly I have learned to find home row and type with all ten fingers.

[OzarkDem]

43. Good for you!

I think computer classes are an excellent idea. A friend of mine was going through a divorce and was worried about getting back into the workforce after being a stay at home mom. She took some classes in Office, etc. at the local community college and was able to get into a job that paid at least $30,000 more a year with real benefits.

You never know what will happen in life and its best to be prepared.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

57. Here's how to put pieces of articles in a post:

Point your mouse at the beginning of the text that you want to copy. It should turn into what looks like a Capitol I. Drag your mouse over the text. That should highlight the section. Then right click your mouse (the right side of the mouse). There should be a list of commands. Scroll down to 'copy' & left click. Go you your post & then right click. Again, there's a list of commands. Right click on 'paste'& the copied text should appear.

[Breeze54]

64. Try reading the HELP files that come with your

(OS) Operating System.

Click START (bottom left) then click HELP!

There is a lot of information there to answer your questions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Similar story with my mom

her first computer, we were sent to Hawaii and we really didn't want to take it, since we were going to get another one. We GAVE the old work horse to my parents who otherwise would have never gotten one.

That machine finally gave up the ghost, but my mother has leanred some of the basics

Other things, I don't try to teach her, I just write what she needs to do step by step and print it

Ask your son to do the same. That works with my mom, she is what 78 now?

[sandnsea]

159. PM Me ANY time

I do not talk computer. I've helped a lot of people figure out what they want to do because of that. I actually do have a lot of patience when it comes to helping people learn new tasks. Seriously, any time. Everybody should be able to post a picture of their children or grandchildren!!

[SoCalDem]

162. My oldest son is a computer guy too, and whenever he scolds me

for not remembering how to do something he SHOWED ME TWICE.. I gently remind him that he pooped his pants a lot when I was potty training him

seriously though.. get an UNrelated young person to show you how to do the things you want to learn..

the photo thing is easy..I even figured it out..

We used to have a very long "try this out..and how do I do this?" thread ..I'll look for it and PM it to you..

[Possumpoint]

31. I Resent The Posting

I'm 61 years old and have been using computers from the late 1980's. Retired from a middle management position. Have taken several computer classes at the local community college. Learned to program Dbase III+ with basic code. Use Access and Excel now.

The real bitch is I can't find a job. No one seems to want to hire some one my age. Well, some will but I don't want to work as a greeter at Wally World.

I understand the attitude some people my age have. Things keep getting more complicated and it's a hassle. To this day I've never used my cell phone to text someone. Why? I can still talk and/or leave a voice mail. Using my phone to take pictures or videos seems alien but I've done it.

[OzarkDem]

44. That's so unfair

As an employer, I'm probably a little different in that I want to hire people who are older and more experienced in other areas. It seems not everyone is looking at it that way and they should. If you lived in my area, I would definitely hire you.

[NJCher]

143. yeah, well, just for the record

I do not think you are out of line for your thinking. You've had quite a number of people say they resent your post or find it condescending or whatever but I do not. What is the matter with people that they can't spend some time, effort and energy to learn something that can do so much for them? Are they that stuck in their ways? We're talking self improvement here! Is that such a difficulty?!?

I'll tell you what was an eye-opener. When I was in Web developer school about eight years ago, the immigrants in that class left the Americans in the dust. They were motivated and tenacious.

I think as a people, many Americans are complacent. Oh forget the euphemism. Americans--many of them, anyway--are just plain damned lazy.



Cher

[zalinda]

33. People in our age group, although I'm 58 and a nerd

have to have a reason to use a computer. My sister, who lives in Arkansas, is a manager of a small store. She can apparently use the computer to do the books, but that is all. She has a computer at home, but calls me when she needs help. I sent her some videos, and had to talk her through installing a video player on her machine. Wow, she is an idiot! I couldn't believe how dumbed down I had to talk, to get her through it. Oh, and she's 55.

On the other hand, there are women who have gotten into machine embroidery and they are quite proficient. Not only did they learn how to operate an expensive sewing/embroidery machine, some even learned how to digitize the designs, which is not an easy task. You find a lot of these women who have found mailing lists, down loadable designs, and instruction on the Internet. There is well over 30,000 of them, some have started businesses, and some just enjoy the company.

Another area where there are a lot of women using the Internet and computers is in genealogy.

zalinda

[regnaD kciN]

34. What planet do you live on...???

Virtually everyone I know of in that age group does practically everything on computer. Operating a computer is as second-nature to them as driving a car.

[OzarkDem]

60. Tell me where you live

I'm moving there.

[NeedleCast]

36. Run Into It All The Time

I am an IT Trainer for Department of Justice. I travel to immigration courts across the country to teach the court staff new software and the boomer generation, for the most part, lacks essential computer skills. Most of them don't know more about computers other than how to turn it on, use E-mail and use the one or two programs that are vital to their job. Beyond that, they're lost. In an era that is increasingly digitalized, knowing computer basics is going to be a must in just about any white collar position, and even some positions that are classically blue collar. Even in the food service industries, construction, etc. computers are becoming more and more prevalent.

My dad (who turns 60 today, happy B-day pops!) has become pretty decent with a computer, but my mom, other than being vaguely aware of their existence, has no idea what a computer can do. My dad has diabetes, and it's highly likely my mom will out-live him and this worries me, because all their finances, many of their important records and other personal stuff...all on the computer. Now, every time I go home to see the folks, I make it a point to make sure my mom learns something about the computer.

Boomers, if you lack computer skills, you really should try to hit up a college class at the local community college or whatever is in your area and gain some basic computer information. I'll be worth your while, I promise.

[Ms. Toad]

38. Get out much?

I'm in that age range (and am female), and so is my spouse (age range and gender). I've been using computers since the late 70s (when the capabilities my laptop now has required the basement of my college library to contain). I either do or have programmed, analyzed programs written by others, designed web pages, set up databases, taught, administered a school computer system (before networks), tested early network systems for IBM, restored old family photographs, carried on correspondence, created and used power point presentations, filed legal documents, shopped with, and currently spend several hours a day using one (or more). I (and/or my family) own 4 (that work). My spouse programmed early computers, and currently uses one regularly. I wouldn't use outlook if you paid me to - you might want to consider something less prone to attract viruses for yourself.

My father (in his 70s) also uses one regularly.

Our computer guru is in that age range, and all of the staff in the office in which I work is in or near that age range and all are female and computer literate. My neighbor across the street is older than I am, solidly blue collar, and uses his computer regularly to correspond with his children and grandchildren.

[OzarkDem]

47. It may be the area I live in

or the field (social services) but about 2/3 of the people I interviewed who were baby boomer age w/ degrees didn't have much in the way of computer skills.

Our area is proud of their blue collar, industrial roots, but most who grow up here and get good skills end up leaving.

[Cleita]

39. I'm the generation before the boomers. We and many of the

boomers never got taught computer skills in school. It's very hard if you learned it as an adult like I did. It's like trying to learn a foreign language as an adult. You never are really never fully fluent in it, no matter how hard you try. I still am awkward at the computer myself and many who grew up in a pre-PCcomputer world don't even try. I have a friend, older than me, who only knows how to send email. I can't even explain to her how to click on a link to a website. She just doesn't get it. I can't show her because we live two hundred miles apart. There is no one to show her where she lives because they are all old people in a senior park. Yet before she retired she was trained to use one program for her job and that's all she knows to use. She can't seem to learn anything else.

[Elwood P Dowd]

40. I'm 60 and didn't get a computer until the 1990s.

Only had a couple of friends my age that had one then. My oldest brother-in-law was buying computers in the 1980s. My two sisters (63 and 56) were using IBM Windows machines in the early 1990s. I think it was Windows 3.1 at that time. I decided to go with an Apple using OS 7.5 and moved on up over the years to 8.6, 9.1, and now 10.4.10 Tiger.

I have two living uncles in their 80s who use computers, but they're both retired engineers who have always enjoyed playing with electronics.

You would be surprised how many people, both young and old, who have zero typing skills. I took typing in high school (1962), so I'm rare compared to most of my friends and relatives. It's really funny sometimes watching these people trying to type on a small laptop.

[Breeze54]

42. The computer illiterate used to keep me employed at my help desk!

But then outsourcing stepped in. I had calls from every age group.
As young as ten and as old as 86. A lot of people don't understand the
basics of how to maintain their computers or their cars! When I was in
school, most of my computer classmates were in their mid 30's to their 70's!
And there were a lot of women in those classes! I don't believe that people
in their 40's and 50's are clueless about computers at all. Perhaps the real
problem is that people do not take the time to read the instructions.

That would be my guess and has been my experience.

*hint* You have to turn it on!

[Blue_In_AK]

45. I'm 61 tomorrow

and I do just fine with computers. Granted, I don't know everything about everything, but I certainly know enough to find what I'm looking for on the internet, send/receive e-mails, edit photos, word process until my fingers bleed, and everything else I need to do. I don't have much use for spread sheets in what I do, but I can certainly transcribe using FTR Gold. If there's something I need to do that I don't know how to do, I know where to go.

I think it's dangerous to generalize about age groups.

[treestar]

46. Not having had it in school, probably

When I went school, none of this was happening or available.

I notice the older generation still loves the phone. When they were young, it was cool to get a phone call.

If you are older, you have to be self taught for these things, or have worked in a place where you learned it.

[Breeze54]

48. Umm, there are schools and adult learning classes and a lot

of the senior centers, that I have seen, have computer labs.

[Trillo]

66. Wearing rose-colored glasses, I see. n/t

[Breeze54]

76. Huh? Why do you say that?

There are many ways for people to seek out computer education, if they choose to look for it.

[Trillo]

91. The post you replied to was addressing mostly the past.

Your text message doesn't address those points made at all (at least 75% of the sentences). It's like those points aren't even there: "Rose-Colored Glasses."

[treestar]

98. That takes more motivation than it does if you're young and it's

just there in school. Today's 10 year old, it's part of their world.

Someone older has to seek out a class, and that's going to limit it to those motivated.

[Clark2008]

51. Train 'em.

Send them to the New Horizons in your area.

Of course, this is a shameless plug since I work for NH, but, chances are you don't live in my town; therefore, my boss's franchise wouldn't make any money on it, so it's not so shameless.

Seriously, if more bosses would spend the $250 on training, people wouldn't have this problem.

[Breeze54]

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[KoKo]

96. Is Video Professor really that good?

You've gotta understand anyone who posts on CNN and Cables...is sort of suspect to me...but I need to learn EXCELL...and I don't like it....the way it's laid out that my screen can't see the whole ting...and it's just not "intuitive to me." :shug:

[Clark2008]

130. Not the same - seriously.

I've used web/computer-based training and taken classes. The classroom instruction for business needs is far superior to web/computer-based training for personal needs.

I'm actually looking for another job, therefore, I'm not in love with my own, but I truly understand the need for business training over personal training now.

[BlackVelvet04]

52. Some people in the baby boomers age group are just so busy

with their life they don't take the time to sit down and learn new technology. It's harder to learn and to remember as you age.

I found I had an affinity for computers and have spent many hours learning and training. I've taught myself with the use of books and tutorial cd's and a couple of college courses.

At my last job I was able to network 5 computers and keep the network up and running. I was the computer guru and I just find it fun. Many people my age find computers intimidating.

[Jed Dilligan]

53. I run into that all the time in my work

Academics in charge of million-dollar budgets who have never opened Excel in their lives.

Have you noticed the young kids now are scary-smart when it comes to technology? My friend's daughter could change DVDs and play them before she could talk.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Uh, we like invented all the shit you are complaining we don't know how to use.

Some of us might not have bothered to learn how to use techno-junk, but the rest of us created this fucked up world we find ourselves in with all these half-bork'd pc's, unusable cell phones, shitty pda's, bad interfaces getting worse, and we developed all the crappy content on all the lousy new media we invented too. Does any of it actually work well? Maybe the gps navigators, and that is about it. We are passing it on to you young'ns and good riddance. Good luck. Hope you do better than we did, which is a real low bar indeed.

[BlooInBloo]

70. LOL! Most. Inclusive. "We". Ever!!!! And false to boot.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. Alright we didn't invent all of it.

But we did invent most of it. The technology we are all using was developed in the 70s, 80s, and 90s primarily by boomers, based on earlier work by the WWI and Korean War generations. We are still at it in the 00's.

Which widely used technology is not a boomer invented product?

[BlooInBloo]

75. The transitor computer. For the win.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. You are using a mainframe at home?

As I mentioned, the stuff we invented, like the PC, was based on earlier work by earlier generations. The point is, as I stated, this stuff we supposedly don't know how to use is stuff we invented: the pc, the mac, cellphones, email, the internet, the web, the spread sheet, word, unix, windows, cds, dvds; which of the crap you are using right now is not a boomer product?

[BlooInBloo]

80. Everthing you named is just transistor computers. Which were NOT invented...

... by the babyboomer generation.

What is even the RELEVANCE of your talk of "mainframes"?

The internet was also not created by people of the babyboomer generation.

[mudesi]

83. Wow. You are wronger than wrong

I'm not a baby boomer, but I can recognize the facts.

The Internet was created in the 1960s. Sorry, but that's baby boomer territory.

[BlooInBloo]

84. (shrug) Doesn't contradict what I said.

[mudesi]

87. "The internet was also not created by people of the babyboomer generation."

That's what you said. Perhaps you confuse HTTP and HTML, which was created in the 90s, with "The Internet".

[BlooInBloo]

89. Which is substantively different from what you said.

[Warren Stupidity]

124. The web's inventor is a boomer.

Tim Berners-Lee, born 1955. That includes the first specification of HTML in 1991 by Berners-Lee, and the development and specification of HTTP by the W3C (headed by Berners-Lee again) and the IETF. The IETF itself is a notorious collection of boomers.

[BlooInBloo]

146. Bullshit. Kleinrock has an infinitely better claim...

... HTML -

EDIT: As if html is relevant to ANYTHING in this discussion.

EDITEDIT: Misread your post - my bad. Yah, he invented *the web*.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. The irony of "As if html is relevant to ANYTHING in this discussion"

is undoubtedly lost on you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. The Car... I mean this generation is as old as the first

Model T?

[Writer]

163. GENERATION WARS!

The X'ers are the one's that brought that technology to life via the WWW. They also pioneered digitization efforts on various platforms (cell phones; computers; televised technologies). Don't forget that!

[TahitiNut]

107. Actually, it was us pre-boomers that did that.

There's not a single base software technology employed on the home computers of today that wasn't in R&D in the 70s - much of it at PARC - or on Unix or Multics systems in the same decade. The first commerical relational database was on the Multics platform. The conceptual GUI folks now call Windows was researched and developed at PARC. The ethernet was "invented" and developed at PARC by Boggs and Metcalf. The Internet itself was developed and implemented primarily in the 70s ... and I've been using the Internet myself since the late 70s. The initial development of HTML was a variation on Markup Languages used since the 60s and HTTP is just another Internet Protocol that follows the rules developed in the 70s.

I've been at least peripherally involved in these technologies since 1967, before I went to Nam, and ever since through the 90s. Hell, I was even involved in the creation of collegiate Computer Science curricula standards through an ACM Working Group back BEFORE CompSci had a curriculum in the 70s ... before which CompSci was either a hodge-podge of Applied Math or Electrical Engineering courses.

[BlooInBloo]

111. Or Bell Labs. Or IBM. Can't think of any other major foci, except individual universities...

... and the gub-ment.

[TahitiNut]

112. Yep. Bell Labs in Holmdel, NJ and the IBM Research Labs.

The universities that stood out were UC Berzerkley, Carnegie-Mellon, MIT, and Cal Tech. University of Waterloo in Canada was a brain trust, too. Compiler/language development.

Virtually everyone agreed, however, that the best work was being done at PARC. It was a "Mecca" in those days.

[BlooInBloo]

114. Heh. "Virtually".

[Warren Stupidity]

121. In the 70's we were in our 20's and 30s

and working at bell labs and xerox parc and developing the network protocols at BB&N and Berkeley. Yes of course all of the pc and network stuff is based on earlier work. Heck you were working at that time - you be a boomer dude.

You all are skirting the big ones: the mac and the pc, windows and whatever it is that runs on a mac these days, and the web are creatures pure and simple of the boomers who built and marketed them(based on earlier work of course).

[TahitiNut]

126. In the early 70s, the oldest boomers had just completed their undergraduate work ...

... and had taken their entry-level jobs catching up on the work that was being done. The youngest boomers were still looking forward to taking the training wheels off their tricycles.

I didn't miss the Mac or Windows at all. The Mac runs a GUI over a version of Unix. As I noted in my first reply post, that's technology founded on work that was extensively done in the 70s -- the GUI mostly at PARC! Hell, I was privy to work done there that neither the Mac nor Microshit has even gotten close to. It was NOT "work done by the boomers." The boomers were involved in the follow-on development, but they stood on the shoulders of giants in the craft.

[jody]

58. I agree although DU has an active contingent in that age group that will protest the point you make.

The problem however is not limited to the 40-60 age group but to younger groups also.

IMO if a child today does not become computer literate, she/he will have a difficult time finding a job/position that offers them an opportunity for a fulfilling life and to become a productive member of society.

Sad, but that's life in the 21st century!

[mcscajun]

62. I think it must be your area. I'm 56 (almost) and can make my PC spin like a top.

I use the 'Net for much, more than e-mail, and train and support my friends and family to do likewise.

I started with a Commodore 64 back in the day, typing assembler code into it and doing checksums to play early computer games, later on, at the bank I worked at, worked on a dual diskette IBM XT (you know, no hard drive: one diskette for the program, the other for the data) spec'd our first IBM AT purchase ( Hard Drive!) taught myself DOS, dBase III+, and created programs to monitor project workflow, learned Lotus 1-2-3, word processing (of course) mainframe system security, Jobcard JCL, and moved up from there, doing Network Support and training.

I've designed forms using the old Lasersoft program, worked with Microsoft Access, written macros in Word and small programs in Excel. Learning Lotus Notes, HTML, and Javascript, I became a Notes developer and system liaison to our outside web developers. PowerPoint? Child's play.

What am I doing these days? After I started training in Java, my department was eliminated and the jobs sent to India, so I'm doing secretarial work at my doctor's office. Every once in a blue moon, I pick up some PC work on the side for a little spare cash, but the Geek Squad has made that kind of work scarce indeed.

Two of our women patients around my age, women who are also IT professionals, were in the office not long ago complaining about their lack of ability to find work suitable to their talents and experience.

Boomers who know PCs and have other computer skills? We're out here, in heaps across the Northeast particularly, believe me, but the kids coming up behind us who grew up on computers and cell phones and iPods AND have their BS in Computer Science (or Electrical Engineering, or other IT degrees) combined with the pressures of offshoring/outsourcing, are rendering us obsolete. No matter how much retraining we could get, we can't compete with those with equal (or perhaps better) skills who will work for far, far, FAR less than we have learned to expect, or indeed, need.

I've seen the ads for people with computer skills in the Northeast: a laundry list of hard-won, highly technical skills, with entry-level salaries. It's way past depressing.

Sorry you can't find the skillset you need where you are, but keep looking, it isn't generational.

[OzarkDem]

79. Seriously, something to think about

People looking for IT work or even those with good computer skills should consider looking in the "rust-belt" industrial areas if you don't mind uprooting. There's a pretty serious lack of skilled professionals in this area.

[Trillo]

63. No computers in public schools.

When I went to public high schools, there were no computers for students; if they did have them somewhere, they were carefully hidden away in some special vault or cavern, with only a few having access.

The public and High School libraries at the time all had paper card catalogs.

I was lucky that a private school I went to for slightly over one year (around mid-70s had a computer room that was open to all students during recreation periods, it was mainframe based and the computer room had terminals). I started playing with some basic programs, trading off time there with time in the chess room, but then that school expelled me.

Public high schools had zero computers, so far as I could tell.

[Withywindle]

102. This was still true when I was in school.

And I'm only 38 - this was high school in the 80s. I never even really saw a computer more than once or twice til college (and never used one very much until after).

Appalachia, y'know. Underfunded.

I hope the role of class differences doesn't get minimized in this discussed.

[kineneb]

172. we had big programable calculators, with card readers

so I learned to program math equations in octal machine code. I haven't had the need to do much programming, but I am a power graphics/typesetting user; so much so that I switched to using Linux around 5 years ago. (there were sooo many blue screens that I said to heck w/Windoz)

oh, high school class of 1976...

[BlooInBloo]

65. Wrong generation. Like learning to speak a language.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Maybe this is a situation peculiar to your part of the country

My church (1500 members) communicates with its members almost exclusively by e-mail, as do its subgroups, such as the choir and the environmental committee. The only people who are unreachable that way are the elderly, and even some of them are computer literate.

Just about everyone else has access to e-mail either at home or through work.

I'm in Minneapolis, by the way.

[sandyd921]

73. Just turned 60 and do fine

with the computer applications I need for my job and use in my daily life including e-mail and working with attachments, surfing the web, PowerPoint presentations, the basics of Excel, etc. Are there applications I don't know? Sure! However, I am confident that I can learn whatever I need to know. Since I got my first computer back in the mid-80's, I've taught myself any applications I needed to know. In general I'd say I'm pretty comfortable with technology. Besides computer stuff, I teach distance ed university classes through a video conferencing system. There are lots of things I can't do with a computer, but if I have no use for them in my present life, I don't worry about it. When and if I need them, I'll learn them. There's not enough time for all the things I want to do in this life, let alone worrying about things I don't need at the present time.

[TreasonousBastard]

77. Coupla small points here...

First, I'm 60 and I've been playing with computers since the 70's. Before I fooled around with FORTH and BASIC programming back then, I knew a lot of people my age, including a number of women, who grew up with machine coding old monsters that still had tubes. Did a little machine coding myself and burned a few ROM chips.

You're talking about spreadsheets and stuff. Me, I spent 20 years as an insurance underwriter and never once had to type my own letter or put numbers into little boxes. Well, OK, once in a while a did my own statistical analysis, but we usually had other people to do these things. I fooled around with ad copy, graphics, and other stuff in other jobs, but never had to draw a picture. We ahd artists who did that. Did some product photography, too, but we didn't have Photoshop back then-- it was all in the setup, maybe with some minor retouching.

Spent some time in sales and tried to come up with a decent database or spreadsheet to track contacts and sales, but found a little notebook was actually faster, easier, and more accurate. I realized that if I ever had enough data to require a database, I would also need to hire an assistant to enter all that data.

So, What you want is not computer skills, but to combine two jobs-- thinking and doing-- into one. Nature abhores a vacuum, and now that computers can do really neat spreadsheets, every stupid little project has to have someone (the project leader, of course) spend hours working out macros and entering data.

And everyone, regardless of their artistic talents, or utter lack of them, must become an art director, copy editor, and layout expert for each project coming down the pike.

And, don't even THINK of getting me started on Powerpoint which just might be the biggest timewaster the planet has seen since masturbation was discovered.

Anyway, yeah, the completely computer illiterate do have a tough time fitting in a lot of places, but I don't buy blaming the failure of a movement, or business, on them.

[OzarkDem]

81. Good points

I learned the same thing - you can be much better and productive at what you do if you learn to integrate some computer skills into it. Incorporating some basic computer knowledge into your job can save a lot of time and effort.

Our business will do fine, but only because I'll have to eventually replace these people with some who have better computer skills, which means they'll probably be younger, too. I'm too savvy a businessperson to let things slide to protect an employee. It sounds harsh, but our business is helping people in desperate need of assistance and the client's needs come before the employees.

[mcscajun]

85. Love your comment on PowerPoint!

[NJCher]

145. misused

I think Treasonous Bastard's comments are interesting, too. I disagree on Powerpoint, but those of you who dislike it are in good company. Edward Tufte loathes it.

I teach speech communication and show my students how to use Powerpoint with pictures. It's a whole different animal when communicating with images.



Cher

[mcscajun]

160. You're right; it Is misused.

Most PowerPoint presentations I attended in the corporation I worked at for 32 years were pure bullet points with embellishments and animations. B-O-R-I-N-G. I could read the bullet points faster than the speaker could, and then what's the point? But the folks who put them together sure wasted time animating them and doing cool dissolves and fades. Wow.

Pictures? Forget about it. I'm sure there are examples out there of PowerPoint used properly; I've just never seen any (that weren't joke files -- those are mostly good.)

[pitohui]

82. i don't know anyone under 80 who can't use email and download attachments

i think it's safe to say that your company has some terrible hiring practices if you have found the two women in america who don't know how to use email

indeed there are so many people who style themselves "web designers" and "desktop publishers" that they're a nuisance underfoot, doing that and a nickle won't even get you a cup of coffee

my subject line is misleading, actually most people i know over 80 who don't have dementia are also online as well

p.s. most of my contacts are in the south or nevada

i'm curious what you mean by "rust belt" exactly, pennsylvania? maybe i should go up there and get a job out of the hurricane zone!

[Igel]

88. I've run into the problem off and on.

I view it the same way I view learning a second language.

If you don't think there's a good reason to learn a second language, you won't (this covers a multitude of factors that could be listed separately). You must be motivated.

If you don't have comprehensible and appropriate input to learn from, you won't. You must find it comprehensible and learnable.

If you don't have enough time and energy to put into it, you won't. You must be able to put forth appropriate effort.

If you must have at least a minimum aptitude for it, otherwise you'll underachieve for your cohort, and you won't. You must not become discouraged.

If you have only negative experiences--embarrassment, humiliation--you won't. You must not be inhibited.

Most of the people I know that have failed to acquire needed computer skills fail in at least one or two areas.

[Trillo]

94. One of your sentences hit me hard with its lucidity.

"If you have only negative experiences--embarrassment, humiliation--you won't. You must not be inhibited."

However, I'd like to suggest that just like positive reinforcement can be intermittent and highly effective, intermittent negative reinforcement is likely also a strong motivator.

Therefore, I'd strike the word "only".

[OzarkDem]

97. It may sound harsh, but

in today's shrinking job market, not updating vital skills because you've had some negative experiences is going to keep you in a low paying job or unemployed.

There are a lot of computer classes available and they're well worth the investment to keep yourself in a good paying job for the future. I suggest doing some research to find good quali