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Philisophic question: when is preemptive war the right answer?

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jollyreaper2112 Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:02 PM
Original message
Philisophic question: when is preemptive war the right answer?
Just to establish my POV on this current war: we didn't have faulty intelligence, we had faulty leadership who fabricated faith-based intelligence. This is no different than cops planting evidence and then arresting someone. We've all seen movies like Dirty Harry where we the audience are gifted with the knowledge that someone is evil and deserving of bloody vengence even if there isn't enough evidence to prove it in court. In such cases, we feel the Dirty Harry cop is just in planting the evidence to bring him down or simply engaging in an extrajudicial killing. But while that makes for an entertaining movie, it's not exactly the sort of justice system I'd want to live under. After all, there's no real legal difference between Dirty Harry knowing someone is guilty and a racist cop deciding someone is black enough to have done the crime; it's just personal opinion.

The problem with nations is that we don't really have a world cop to resort to when other nations are getting out of hand. We lack an impartial third party to turn to for a review of the complaints and a passing of judgment. By the time there is enough evidence in the open so that it's plain to all to see that force must be used to settle a problem, often times the matter is forced by a declaration of war from the other party. The classic examples used in favor of a preemptive war would be WWII. It is argued that if the Allies from the first world war had shown some spine in face of Hitler's expansionist policies, he would have had to content himself with holding Germany. As has been revealed after the war, Hitler was bluffing and lacked the strength to back his claims. By the time he attacked Poland, his war machine was stronger than ever. With regards to Japan, I'm not sure much could have been done to avert that war. The entire Japanese nation was hellbent on imperialistic expansion, having learned such arts lovingly at the knee of Europe. Their concept of the Greater East Asia Co-Propserity Sphere was just an update of our own Monroe Doctrine. While military academics saw a war with Japan as likely for a decade or more before Pearl Harbor, nobody could be stirred to do much about it. To be fair, America's isolationist stance was greatly bolstered by the utter stupidity of the first world war. It was, to misquote Seinfeld, "a war about nothing." It was as if a gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs over some trivial matter of honor was fought with chainsaws and hand grenades.

So, there are historically bad examples for preemptive war like Iraq. There are historically valid examples in support of preemptive war such as WWII. Nobody can argue against fighting back when attacked but when could you justify hitting first? How do you tell the difference between defensively throwing the first punch and being the bully in the first place?

Here are two scenarios to chew over based on our Cold War enemy, the USSR.

Scenario 1: At the end of WWII, Gen. Patton argued that we should continue the war, switching enemies and attacking the Soviets directly. Many people saw that the USSR came out of the war strengthened despite the setbacks. They had over 400 divisions under arms and the past twenty years of Communist propaganda made it clear that they were quite evangelical about their views. Patton argued that a war with them would be inevitable and we may as well fight it with our war machine running at full steam than repeat the folly of WWII, going into a world war with a peacetime army. His fear was proven correct with how flatfooted were were caught when the Korean War broke out.

The arguments against his position were that the US was war-weary and the nation would not take kindly to starting a war that could prove bigger than the one against Germany. There was no way to tell for certain that Russia would turn out to be an enemy. It would also be a hard sell since we spent all this time building up Uncle Joe as an ally. There was also not much of an appreciation for just how deadly the nuclear bomb would prove to be. Nobody at the time thought that avoiding war with the USSR then meant that a future war would be final.

We know from history that World War III never happened. What we don't know for certainty is why it didn't. There were certainly enough close-calls through the years just from faulty instrumentation, let alone any actual intentions for making the first strike. We know from history that brinksmanship on the part of simpletons such as Reagan brought us inches from war. (Look up Able Archer. The Soviets were absolutely convinced that Reagan's war games were a prelude to a nuclear first strike and were ready to counter-attack at a moment's notice. When Reagan found out about this later, he could not understand how Russia could mistake us for "bad guys." He didn't just use good and evil for propaganda purposes, he actually saw the world in black and white.)

So, would a war against the USSR have been justifiable, given the risks?

Scenario 2: I haven't found backing info for this so it might be just a tad bit hypothetical. It is historical fact that Air Force general and certifiable madman Curtis LeMay wanted to launch a first strike during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was the mastermind of the air war against Japan. His conventional firebombing raid against Tokyo killed more people than either of the atomic bombings. He was an inventive and efficient killer and brought about megadeath bodycounts before such a term had even been coined.

The facts I haven't been able to cooborate were a listings of the nuclear orders of battle for the US and USSR at the time. The point brought forward there was that the US had large numbers of intercontinental, intermediate-range, and submarine-launched ballistic missiles as well as long-range bombers. The Soviets at the time had 100 liquid-fueled ICBM's that had an astonishing 48 hour prep time. Their bomber force was not in the best of shape either. LeMay felt that we could win against those numbers. Just like the general in Strangelove, he felt we might take a few on the chin but Russia would be KO'd. He even ordered a test launch of a ballistic missile from Cape Canaveral in the hopes of making the Bear jump, getting the OK from Kennedy to go to war. Of course, we know that didn't happen. But in the intervening time the Soviets built up a larger launch capability, thus ensuring that global nuclear war would be even less winnable than before.

With such a scenario, would you pull the trigger?

I think both of these are tough questions. I would say historically, we were very lucky and without much tribute to our own wisdom. I find it incredible that we didn't see loss of nuclear control with the fall of the USSR. Humanity was luckier than we had any right to be. But if I had to choose, I could see the argument for going to war in Scenario 1. For Scenario 2, I think the risks are simply too great. But could you imagine what a protracted post-WWII war with Russia would have been like? They would have developed the bomb sooner or later, with or without help from American traitors. Intercontinental bombers were already on the drawing boards. The lack of large nuclear stockpiles would mean that we'd be facing the threat of periodic air raids but with the threat that even one bomber making it through would mean the loss of an entire city. This would not be the 80's nightmare scenario of a 20 minute war but a slow whittling away of the nation, one irradiated city at a time.

It's humbling to think of just how dangerous a game international diplomacy is. It's frightening to consider the idiots playing for our side.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. What our government did to Iraq was NOT preemptive war.
Edited on Mon Feb-12-07 05:06 PM by sparosnare
Preemptive: "relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preemptive

There was no imminence, there was no threat. What our government did was a criminal act, a war of aggression - against an enemy that was no threat to this country.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That is correct it was a war of conquest and plunder of natural resources
....possession and control over a sea of oil with major western corporations benefiting from the pillage.
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. EXACTLY!
The ONLY way that our attacking/invading Iraq would've legitimately been "pre-emptive" is if we had had evidence that they had missles or some other offensive weapons primed and ready to launch at us or another country and/or had their military forces poised to invade a neighboring country. Whatever one can truthfully say about the evidence of "threat" posed by Iraq that Bush et. al used as a rationale for invading Iraq, the "threat" posed by Iraq to us and the rest of the world in 2003 certainly was NOT "imminent" in ANY sense of the word and thus did not provide ANY justification whatsoever for us to start bombing them and launching an invasion/occupation. That none of our elected officials, the media, and most of the country for that matter understood what seems to be a fairly clear concept is clearly testament to the powerful propoganda efforts of Bush et. al to get (most of) us to accept what was clearly an unwarranted and unprovoked act of aggression as a justfiable and legitimate pre-emptive military action.
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jollyreaper2112 Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. you can get distracted by semantics
One man's preemptive war is another man's war of agression. I'm personally not a fan of starting wars. I'd wager that most people here are not big fans of war, not like the typical conservative warhawks who are praying for someone to start something so we can start killing. But I figure not all of us are timid utopians who feel that because *we* don't embrace violence, nobody else will adn all will be happy.

So, that's the point of discussion I was looking to have here, not about Iraq in particular but preemptive wars in general. When is it better to throw the first punch? How do you ensure you're not actually the jerk? I think it's excellent grounds for starting a discussion.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. It's actually pretty simple
The UN Charter lays out exactly when an attack is allowed under international law. First, Art 2(4) prohibits any nation from attacking another nation. The charter only has two exceptions to this rule: when an attack is required for self-defense, and when the Security Council authorizes the use of force.

In this case, the Security Council did not authorize the Iraq War, and the US was not required to attack out of self-defense. Therefore, this was an illegal war under international law. So there's really not much to discuss about the Iraq War. And in general, the UN Charter lays out exactly when a country is allowed to start a pre-emptive war - only when the attack is necessary for the country's self-defense.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Perhaps Israel's 6-day war? They had firm intelligence about the massing of armies
and tanks on their borders. They had intercepted communications about the plans.

They felt their only option was to strike first. Otherwise, it would be over for them shortly after the invasion started.

That's the only one I can think of and that one was very unique and may have been necessary due to the small size and vulnerable geography of Israel.
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jollyreaper2112 Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. yup, good example
But the funny thing about history, you can't escape it. I think the Jews were ultimately in the wrong for taking Israel by force in the first place. Of course, the Arabs don't exactly come out smelling like roses with the way they treated the refugees. Everyone comes out looking like bastards.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Cuban blockade?
Edited on Mon Feb-12-07 05:37 PM by KansDem
I believe blocking a sovereign nation's harbors is an act of war. Anyway, it was done based on intelligence that Cuba was installing Soviet missile launchers. JFK considered the intelligence and the blockade was ordered.

edited to replace verb
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. When we learn to predict the future without uncertainty.
Essentially, never.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. preemptive war is a good thing anytime
if you're a nazi
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Pre-emptive war is bogus. You are the aggressor if you start an unprovoked war. IMO
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jollyreaper2112 Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. that's noble in an ideal situation
But there are quite a few situations I can think of where there are no good answers. Case in point in my own life: this rental unit in my complex was occupied by drug dealers. Their kids had two large rotties that they did nothing to control. These dogs could kill any of the other people in the community, children, smaller dogs, etc. Other people in the house were breaking into units in the complex. There's also the drug issue to consider. The police were uninterested in doing anything. Now people I know in the country said the situation is simple: yuo tell them if you find the dogs on your property again, they're going to be shot. The guy with that advice said he had that same problem with a guy who owned two large rotties. He took the dogs back across the property line and made himself clear. The other guy was upset and cussing at him but the dogs never got loose again.

As things turned out, I never had to have a confrontation with these neighbors. The SWAT team showed up, there was a firefight and the troublemakers were removed. That was the best thing that could have happened.

The cops are usually bad about this sort of thing. How many dead women are there out there who murdered by their husbands or boyfriends who had restraining orders? If my sister were in such a relationship, what would I do? Unbalanced husband who has threatened to kill her, restraining order does you no good when you're dead, cops won't do anything until he shows he's willing to kill her (by killing her), just what the hell do you do? Shooting him puts you in jail. Objectively, that's a good thing because I don't want any average person to be able to kill people just because they said they were scared, too easy to abuse. Try to cripple him so he can't kill her and you're only in for assault? Or just do nothing and hope to God he's not really going to carry through with his threat?

That is a damn tough question and there are no easy answers. I think you could make quite an argument for preemption there.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Not noble , it's the truth.
Edited on Mon Feb-12-07 08:54 PM by spanone
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Iran (for one) has ample evidence and justification to preemptively strike the USA.
WWI was a conglomeration of nations all acting "preemptively" that ended in the "lost generation" and as a prelude to the even greater carnage of WWII.

Justifications for war are almost always clouded in some sort of pre-emption to "prevent catastrophe" to the aggressor.

Even Hitler used that rationale in starting his march to war.."..to prevent Jewish-Bolshevism" from destroying Germany.

Japan pre-emptively struck Pearl Harbor as a "last resort" to prevent her from being cut off from her "vital national interests" of raw materials and being stuck in a position of facing overwhelming military force by the UK and America.

It's a BS excuse for aggression.

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Pre emptive war is never right
this is concept is poison that has been brainwashed into Americans since Bush and Cheney, strike your enemy first before they strike you, sadly, we have threw our credibility and diplomatic strategy away.

again pre emptive war is never right.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. "pre-emptive war' is a liar's way of describing an unprovoked attack
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Constitution answers this..article 1 section10
No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

fly
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Oh-Puleeeze!!!!
Why are you referring to that "quaint" document? Don't you know that the constitution is SO part of the "pre-9/11 mindset"? ;)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. That Only Means That It Requires Congressional Approval. As Long As Approved, Pre-Emptive War Can
be waged.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't screw with anyone who doesn't screw with me
and when someone does screw with me I certainly don't go beat up their neighbor. International diplomacy is only a dangerous game because diplomats and politicians are full of shit. If people were honest it would be much easier and quicker to resolve differences.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. Clear and convincing evidence of an imminent enemy attack.
Not a bunch of trumped up baloney like the Iraq war.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Pre-Emptive War Can Absolutely Be The Right Answer Sometimes.
It should only be reserved for the most pressing of instances however, and when waged all care should be taken to minimize civilian casualty and infrastructure.

But if another nation is without doubt preparing to wage aggression upon us, then of course you take the offense pro-actively. It's a no brainer. Course, that's when it is without a doubt. Doesn't apply so much to when the intel is cooked in order to convince the public that it is without a doubt.

But when it is clear that there is imminent intent of attack from another nation, then hell yeah ya strike first. Only fools would sit back and and await the attack before doing something about it.

Problem is, if ever a situation arises in the future the majority of Americans may no longer buy it, even if the threat was real.
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