Skinner, I think we have a problem, and I think we need to hear from you.

[Redstone]

(What follows is only my own observation, and may be accepted or dismissed by anyone for any reason; either is fine by me).

I can feel the heat from DU boiling over.

I'm not going to engage in any bashing of the Democratic Party here; I'm just trying to tell you (as a lifelong Independent-registered voter, and therefore perhaps one of the more-objective people here) that there's big trouble brewing.

I see SO much frustration here. So, SO many people who have worked SO hard on behalf of the Democratic Party, and now feel betrayed.

The joy from last November's elections has completely dissipated. All the people who did so much for Democratic candidates have found, as a reward for their energy, money, and loyalty, naught but a handful of ashes.

After ten months now, what have the Democrats we sent to the Congress and Senate done to repay our faith?

Nothing. The frustration has been building here at DU. The Democratic House members and Senate have accomplished exactly NONE of the things we sent them to Washington to do. They've caved in to the Administration at EVERY turn of events.

They've betrayed out trust, over and over.

And today, in a most astonishing slap to the face to Democrats in general and DUers in particular, the DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate, has issued a censure to an organization that I think most DUers would regard as a sister organization to DU.

The DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate can't manage to do ONE THING to get us out of that hideous war.

The DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate has done NOTHING about healthcare.

The DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate has done NOTHING about our looming economic crisis.

But the DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate HAS managed to allow a censure of MoveOn.org.

Skinner, you're the only one who can rally the troops. Based on what I've seen, an awful lot of DUers have gotten discouraged and disheartened by today's disgraceful action by the DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate.

DU needs to hear from you. Tell us why we should have hope. We, and other Democratic voters, did all we could do, and sent enough Democrats to Washington to seize a majority of both houses of Congress.

Tell us why all that work and all those votes were NOT in vain.

Because it sure seems like they were.

Redstone

[Ishoutandscream2]

1. Good post. I'm terribly frustrated

And you can definitely see it here on DU. We are supposed to be here in solidarity, and even the best of friends are being nasty to one another.

DU doesn't seem to be a safe place to be right now. There are some angry, angry people here.

[SunDrop23]

255. I'm at the point I have zero confidence in the 08 election. Yes, zero.

Instead I am preparing for the election of another warlord and a slide further down the evolutionary chain.

[Peggy Day]

270. I have a good idea. Al Gore starts a new party!

New rules!

[comtec]

310. False Majority

We don't have a real Majority in the Senate, and joe-scumentum is probably black mailing all the time to keep the dems from doing any real work. I'm unsure the dynamic of how that would change the power structure in the senate...

THAT SAID.... I totally agree. But don't any of you realize what an amazing thing we did in November!?!? We COMPLETELY FLIPPED CONTROL! That ha never happened, not to the extent that it did. We got a (tentative) majority in BOTH houses, usually it's one at a time.

Now THAT that said....

yeah it's pretty sad. There is plenty they CAN and Could and SHOULD have done the last 8/12+ years against the gop majority! They have been cowards, and this thing with kerry the other day just proves how spineless our once beloved DemoCRATIC party has become.

God help us because I don't think anyone else can.

[Stand and Fight]

432. That majority means NOTHING so long as...

That majority means nothing so long as the Republicans continue to dominant affairs. Until Democrats in Congress begin to exercise the mandate they were rightfully handed by the American people, then we can kiss 2008 goodbye. All this willy-nilly clap-trap nonsense about how fantastic last year was is bullshit. We've got and seen no results to validate November 2006. We've just seen them cave again-and-again. While I don't subscribe to the Chicken Little "The sky is falling" mentality, I do believe that the Democrats in congress have behaved like little chicken shits.

[lame54]

438. this song might cheer you up

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T5dQmS16QGg

[zabet]

445. DU has been in such a snit..

I have avoided posting on threads for the last 24 hours.
I have read a lot, just kept my thoughts to myself.

[CurtEastPoint]

2. Redstone, you hit the proverbial nail right on the head...

What did we vote for these people for except for the change that was promised.

What do we have to do to get them to step up to the plate and work on America's problems?

I'm all ears, too.

[ooglymoogly]

193. does anyone have a list of the deno's who voted for this ridiculous measure

Of course Lie-berman is a given but who are the other 22 masquerading as dems. It would be interesting to have a look at their voting records.

[JDPriestly]

218. Feinstein is also on the list of betrayers.

I'm ashamed that I voted for her. I should have stayed home. My vote for her is wasted. She betrays Democrats over and over. And I think she does it for personal gain. That is the worst part.

[ooglymoogly]

256. She always appears on the list.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same 22 + those who conveniently were absent and hid from the vote that are causing us to lose all the time on just about every issue...and the same for the infamous 44 + absentees who voted for FISA in the house.

[Peggy Day]

269. I think you're right. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

309. You voted for her because she has a "D" next to her name.

This, THIS is the danger of voting party-line. THIS is what happens when people are told to "shut up and vote Democrat." There is no accountability and if our elected officials are supposed to have anything, its accountability.

[Pyrzqxgl]

443. We like to tell ourselves that we voted in a Democratic majority in both Houses.

THAT JUST ISN'T SO. We have so many elected folks with D behind their name that just don't act or vote like Democrats.
What we have to do is get active in primary campaigns with candidates who will vote for those things we care about.
Turn some of those Blue Dog and DLC so called Democrats out on their collective asses and take our party back.

[patrioticintellect]

450. DNC Chairman Howard Dean

Howard Dean's 50-State Strategy has a chosen agenda that does little for America. His organizers are working "grueling" campaign hours forcing this agenda on Americans as the ONLY other option to Republicans. That is not so. We must stand up and request that Dean shift the agenda to a more progressive one.

[Truth2Tell]

468. Or what?

The Jr. Neo-con/Wall Street wanna-be tactics of Emanuel and Schumer? :shrug:

[patrioticintellect]

481. I never use these...in this case, I'm making an exception

:wtf:

[Truth2Tell]

484. Sorry, I see you are actually a progressive

I'm used to seeing Dean's strategy attacked by the DLC types around here. And the alternative offered is usually the DCCC model.

What in particular do you object to about the 50 state strategy from a progressive standpoint? Just curious.

[patrioticintellect]

485. It isn't progressive.

And if you want the details of my problems with it, read my article I wrote for OpEdNews.com.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_kevin_go_070918_will_you_be_one_of_t.htm">Will You Be One of the 2,500 to Support Democratic Organizers?

[Truth2Tell]

491. Fair criticism of the stated campaign goals, but

...only problem is that these points the DNC publishes - and which you rightfully critique in your excellent article - really have very little to do with the actual fruits of the 50 state strategy.

I promise you - most of the ground level party organizers and activists benefiting from the financial largess of the 50 state strategy couldn't recite these published campaign goals if you put a gun to their head. They are likely the fruits of the labor of a few centrist DNC staff wonks and are destined to sit on paper and wither.

The actual result of the strategy thus far - rather than any particular direct policy impact - has been to gradually shift the organizational power structure of the party from the center to the grass roots. And the result of that shift - thanks to the corrupt nature of the present center - has been to empower more progressives within the party.

Please continue to fight against and expose the wishy washy language of appeasement that sprouts from so many Dem crevices. But please take a hard look at Howard Dean and what he is trying to achieve with the party. You may find yourself on the same team.

[MsLeopard]

347. She is the absolute worst

DINO out there. I stopped voting for her years ago - when she supported the ridiculous bankruptcy bill, and then voted for the crminal big pharma bill. At every turn Richard Blum, her husband, makes bank off of her votes. She has no shame and needs to be sent home from the Senate.

[ooglymoogly]

436. She is a member of the tri lateral commission as are virtually

all the notable neocons, poppy, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Pearl, and the worst Nazi of them all Rocket-feller and a lot of other new world order for the rich types. She knows she cannot win as a Repuke so she runs with the D after her name.

[calimary]

440. Amen!

I think WHENEVER we call one of our reps, we HAVE to push this.

What I've been saying lately is some form of:

THIS MoveOn.org supporter worked NIGHT AND DAY, ALL LAST YEAR, to get the Dems back into the majorities in BOTH Houses of Congress. And for WHAT???

Dear Democrats: I only buy BACKBONES, these days. I'm not paying you to slink over to get in line behind the republi-CONS. In fact, the donation I was going to send you has been redirected toward MoveOn.org.

Because I'm ONLY buying BACKBONES these days.

I think if they continue to show such spinelessness, it will be VERY fair and reasonable to question their resolve elsewhere. Dear Democrats: if you can't (or won't) stand up to bush and the republi-CONS, how do we know you can (or will) stand up to bin Laden?

[onenote]

3. I hate a number of the things that have happened, but I don't think it means our votes

were in vain. WHat it means is that we need to elect more Democrats, and more progressive Democrats, in 2008. I'm disappointed in Jim WEbb today, but I still don't view the vote that I cast for him over George Allen as a vote in vain and I won't view a vote that I cast for Mark Warner over any repub opponent of Mark Warner as being in vain either.

[iaviate1]

88. Let's "elect more democrats..."

Because that worked so well for us last time.

[onenote]

90. you'd rather elect repubs -- you thought that was working?

Sorry if the fact that you have two choices doesn't appeal to you, but that's the reality you face. YOu can support Democratic candidates -- and you may have noted that I urged the election of more progressive Democrats -- or you can support (either directly or by withholding support from Democrats) the election of repubs.

Not a hard choice for me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

235. I'd rather elect progressives who represent my views

I don't care what party they belong to.

[mwb970]

332. Who are the "progressive" Republicans?? /nt

[Pyrzqxgl]

444. There aren't any progressive Republicans BUT,

we do have primary elections to support some progressive Democrats against some of the taildraggers we have in our
party.

[iaviate1]

289. I'd rather elect progressives.

Enough of the BS about indirectly supporting the GOP. DINOs are owned by the GOP and are far more dangerous because they're wolves in sheeps' clothing.

[LiberalFighter]

124. Yes we have to elect more Democrats

Having just enough Democrats elected for control of the House and Senate gave us oversight control. It eliminated complete carte blanch by the Bush Administration.

But that still allows the Republicans to cause havoc with the system because of the rules the Senate and House operate under.

When we have enough Democrats to prevent filibusters Democrats can do more. When we have enough Democrats to override Bush's veto we can do more.

When we have enough Democrats that are Democrats and are not likely to kow tow to the wishes of Bush Democrats will have more control.

[JDPriestly]

227. But our Democrats are such duds that they can't even investigate and exercise

oversight properly. What do we get at the Committee hearings? Speechifying by Democrats. Where are the probing questions, the questions that show to the world what frauds the Republicans are? The Democrats showed what they are capable of in the the Gonzales hearings. But the hearing with Betrayus was a joke. They played sponge ball, not hard ball with that guy.

[bdamomma]

351. we need to vote for more dems and we need to vote.

period. Dems have just squeaked by in this election. Repigs are on their way out, * has totally screwed their party, and on one note, we all seem to be upset at the outcomes of certain legislation, just imagine if the Repigs were still in charge, nothing absolutely nothing would be done, more rubber stamping of legislation.

[Jim Lane]

462. I agree 100%. The OP doesn't speak for all of us.

In 2006, none of the races I could vote in were close. I spent an hour on a train to reach a swing district. The locals weren't well prepared and we out-of-towners spent a lot of time just sitting around waiting for assignments. When we finally did get out for our door-to-door work, it involved a fair amount of hill climbing. Where I live is flat so I wasn't used to it, and my legs were hurting.

And I don't regret any of it.

I agree with onenote. "The world isn't perfect yet so our votes were in vain" is silly. We effected some improvements. That's all I expected. Incremental change is how politics usually works in a democracy. If you can't deal with that messy reality, you'll find the utopians over in the Green Party. They almost never suffer the angst of feeling disappointed by the actions of an elected official whom they supported.

[PeaceNikki]

473. If I could recommend this reply, I would. The OP and all who agree should read this.

:thumbsup:

[Vincardog]

4. Please change the "Democraticly controlled has failed" to "the Republican have blocked"

By repeatedly stating the "Democratic failure" you are placing the onus for the Republican blocking on the wrong party.

[Redstone]

6. Mike Gravel told us how to defeat that blocking. It isn't happening.

Redstone

[truedelphi]

15. Agreed. The spineless and/or sellouts just won't do it. n/t

[AllyCat]

284. How? What did he say? If it will work, I wish they'd listen.

Have you noticed that no matter how egregious the bill, the Repukes vote in unison? While the Dems fracture at nearly every turn. I'm so frustrated.

[jackster]

349. Here Here!

IT's the filibuster that ain't really a filibuster! They could at least ATTEMPT to stop the repubs but they just throw up their hands!

[regnaD kciN]

22. That doesn't apply to today's vote...

The vote against MoveOn.org was 75-25. The Senate is split 49D - 49R - 2I (Sanders and Lieberman). Since I'm assuming that Lieberman voted for censure and Sanders against it, that means, at best over half of the Democrats in the Senate (25 out of 49) voted for censure.

That's not a matter of Republicans blocking anything positive. That's a matter of Democrats voting for something negative.

While I'm sure there were a few conservative Democrats who would have voted for the censure on principle, I sense that we're seeing the same thing as with the Iraq War Resolution -- lots and lots of "scared bunny" Democrats who figure "the resolution's going to pass, no matter what I do, so I better protect myself against it being used as a campaign issue against me next election."

It seems to me that Publicans have been so effective in using "liberal," "weak on defense," etc. labels on Democrats in the past that they're preconditioned to fear them even now, when there's every reason to believe voters, in their disgust at Bush, are now immune to that old Publican tactic. But the "scared bunny" Democrats are like the prisoner so used to being locked in his cell that, even after the cell door is left open, he wouldn't even dream of trying to walk out. If this is the case, there's little hope for the future, because we can count on Publicans being able to block any measure from our side, and being able to intimidate the "scared bunnies" into backing measures from their side. :-(

ON EDIT: I see now that the source I found got the vote margin wrong -- it was actually 72-25, not 75-25. But that still means twenty or so Democrats chose to side with Bush and the Senate Publicans against a progressive, antiwar movement. In that light, I see no reason to revise my remarks.

[The Doctor.]

84. Or they abstained. nt

[PA Democrat]

116. Today's vote was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for me.

How did that amendment even make it to the floor of the Senate for a vote? Capitulation by the Democrats. I have consistently criticized Republicans. For God's sake the staffers at Specter's office know me by name because I call so much. I have worked for and contributed to Democrats in every recent election.

Is it too much to ask that this stupid chest-thumping-I-support-the-troops amendment NOT be allowed to the floor of the Senate for a vote. The Democrats couldn't even do THAT for their base? I share your disgust.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. The FISA vote was the straw for me

This one is bad too. I am so angry I can barely see straight.

[Mnpaul]

214. And my senator voted for both of them

Krappy Kloubuchar and the dumpster Dems strike again. I emailed her and asked why did I even bother voting for her when she votes with the Repubs and against the constitution every time.

[paulk]

399. if it passed there obviously weren't enough votes to block it

60 votes!

the "base" you speak of seems to be 25 votes.

That's democracy!

[iamasmadashell2]

463. I heartily concur

All this vote did was solidify for me and many others our support for Moveon.org
Apparently this is the only mainstream org. that is attempting to do the PEOPLES BUSINESS.
However here in Calif. we now have a Democrat who is doing her job. Debra Bowen Sec. of
State she has been going after those vote-counting machine Companies therefore my only positive response would be ACT LOCALLY BUT THINK GLOBALLY!!!!!!!
And this is without out a doubt--the straw that........................................
Good Post

[robinlynne]

171. Why the hell was this allowed to be voted on?

[proud2BlibKansan]

234. To keep us from worrying about OJ and Brittany?

[Plucketeer]

183. It really IS...

...disheartening. In spite of my few posts reflected, I've been a faithful of DU for a couple of years now. You can damn well bet that I'm as frustrated as anyone here. I'd bite on a cyanide capsule before I'd vote Rethug, but I'm wondering if my years of jokingly advocating a "Common Sense" party shouldn't have been in earnest.
It's only been since the early 90s that I've cared much about who represented me in DC. But with the steady, life-sucking erosion of the America I was once so certain was the pinnacle of righteousness on earth, I've gotten more and more concerned and vocal.
The way I see it is short of making a futile, flailing gesture via some ignored third party, I have but ONE avenue to funnel my wishes thru to effectivity - the Democratic party. I'm not a 6-pack guzzling, Arab-hating, semi-automatic-waving idiot with posters of sports jocks and GI Joe for office decor. But I'm as gutsy as any Rambo-esque Red stater and I'd TRULY fight tooth 'n nail to preserve the freedoms I see being stolen from us by flag-waving thieves with an R in front of their names.
I'm gonna hang tough for the Demo folks and keep writing them to make it clear that we didn't send them to DC to be a mirror image of the GOP scoundrels. So long as the Plucketeer has ONE keystroke left in his ten digits, the folks we send to DC are gonna be kept aware of what I expect of them!
Now, let's get the houses PACKED with them. We're being HANDED just that chance by the current administration's arrogant ignorance. Let's SIEZE that very moment for ourselves!

[truedelphi]

297. If you have been lurking for years and tonight's

Your 25th post - your eloquence suggests to me that we were missing a lot in not having you in on the discussion earlier.

Glad you made it in - the water's not always fine - but I hope you'll continue to paddle around and
especially that you will continue to have your say.

[redqueen]

356. I *love* your spirit!

:hi:

[calimary]

441. Welcome to DU!

My buzz phrase for ANY and ALL Democratic fund-seekers who cross my path: "Sorry. I'm only buying BACKBONES these days."

[PADemD]

223. S.RES.315

S.RES.315
Title: A resolution to express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all the members of the United States Armed Forces.

Sen Cornyn, John (introduced 9/11/2007)

Co-sponsors
Sen Inhofe, James M. - 9/18/2007
Sen Martinez, Mel - 9/11/2007
Sen Roberts, Pat - 9/11/2007
Sen Vitter, David - 9/18/2007

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SE00315:@@@X

Vote Results:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00344#position

[Pyrzqxgl]

447. Politicians are always scared shitless of any uniform with lots of salad & stars.

I've always thought they looked silly. Like maybe dressing up for a costume ball. That uniform doesn't make them any
more or less susceptible to brain washing, in fact it wouldn't surprise me to see Betrayus up for elective office in the
future.

[RC]

45. The original statement is correct.

There are too many DINO's in the democratic party.

[bvar22]

52. Thats a sorry excuse.

The Republicans managed to easily move their agenda for 7 years when they had less than 60 votes.
It is TOTAL BULLSHIT to whine that you need 61 votes to get anything done.

Howcum the Democrats failed to block anything when they were the minority and the Republicans can so easily block everything? :shrug:

I must give the Democratic minority a shout out on blocking the privatization of Social Security, but otherwise they get a BIG FAT RED F for FAILURE!

[blossomstar]

197. EXACTLY.

I had this exact thought today. What in the living hell is the problem with these wimpy dems? There are no EXCUSES.

[Vincardog]

277. The had the resident chimp on their side. That makes a big difference

[Control-Z]

283. Exactly -eom

[freebrew]

340. K&R

Well, for one thing, the Publicans didn't have to over-ride a * veto. They brought up and passed legeslation knowing full well that * would sign it. That's the difference.
While I truly abhor the recent DINO votes, it's still better than what we had last year.
My own senator, a Dem recently elected(McCaskill), voted with the bastards on the moveon motion.
I sent her an email stating my displeasure and also donated more $ to Moveon.

That is what we should ALL do, TODAY. if you haven't already, send them some cash.
MoveOn was instrumental in getting these asses elected. Let's make sure the next time they support a Dem, that said Dem is a progressive and not just another toady.

[calimary]

442. Welcome to DU!

I did, too. And in my message, I identified myself as a MoveOn.org supporter - who's just sent the contribution that WOULD have gone to the DCCC and DSCC to MoveOn.org.

'Cause I'm only buying BACKBONE these days.

[Plucketeer]

397. Might it be....

.... that the Dems didn't have a rabid presence in the oval office during that time? You can hand them an F if you like. But I'd wager you got the same sorta grade yourself in Civics class. It's obvious you don't understand the triangle of power in DC.

:kick:

[bvar22]

406. BS. I received straight A's in Civics.

And a Bush* VETO does NOT prevent moving the agenda in the Senate.
Let bush* VETO the bills. Name the bills "The Support the Troops Bill", or the "Win in Iraq Bill", or "Jobs for Americans Bill", and the let the little asshole VETO them. When he does, SEND THEM BACK!

At least AMERICA WILL see WHO IS BLOCKING THE LEGISLATION.

It sounds SO much better on the evening soundbyte:

"Tonight, Mr Bush VETOED the Support the Troops Bill. The Democratic run Senate is determined to provide a rest period for our troops, and will send the same back to the President tomorrow"!

Wringing your hands and whining the "bush* will just VETO it" is NO EXCUSE.
DO YOUR FUCKING JOB and STOP worrying about what bush* is going to do.
AMERICA will SEE the truth.

This has been your lesson in CIVICS 101 and American Politics 101.
No Charge.

[freefall]

427. Right on, bvar22. How I would love to hear a soundbyte like yours. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

115. And change "blocked" to "filibustered". It's bad enough that the media refuses...

... to use the word for anyone but Democrats.

[proud2BlibKansan]

236. The Dems are letting the repukes block important votes

The leadership in both houses controls what bills reach the floor. And the leadership is in which party's hand?

[graywarrior]

5. Yep. One big churning, boiling pot of anger and frustration.

Thanks for posting, Redstone.

[Nimrod2005]

7. IMO, This is not fair to Skinner, this is not a one man's job...Plus the Internets have a life of

their own...No one person can direct, change, inspire, fix, or manipulate how we feel.

I agree with everything in your post, but to ask Skinner for solutions is not realistic.

I suggest you send your post to the DNC, DLC, DSCC, Harry Reid, Pelosi, and your local representatives.

[proud2BlibKansan]

241. The problem is that we are supposed to support the Democratic party on DU

Yet so many of us are no longer willing to support this party and its elected officials. We are a community and we want a progressive voice to represent us. And we want to be able to discuss what we want here on DU.

[ima_sinnic]

303. YES! I want to be able to freely say, for example, that

Jim Webb, for one, is a lying, cowardly, DUMBASS fucking piece of SHIT who faked his way into Congress so he could help to boost the republican party's bottom line of BULLSHIT. I will REGRET from here to eternity the fucking much-needed money I sent to that ASSHOLE's campaign, supposedly to COUNTER the repukes. SO FAR HE HAS BEEN NOTHING BUT A TRAITOR TO THOSE WHO WORKED S0 HARD AND GAVE SO MUCH TO SEE HIM ELECTED.

[proud2BlibKansan]

305. I hear you

I feel the same way about Claire McCaskill.

[bdamomma]

353. call their offices and speak your mind.

we need to get on their backs really, let them be afraid of us, not the other way around. what congress is at 11% now, and they say (repigs) or whoever they will not listen to the polls, fuck that the polls are the people!! We need to speak our minds, we are the citizens who they work for, I would love to cut their funds!!!

[redqueen]

357. What'd Jim Webb do?

What'd I miss now?

[ima_sinnic]

421. 1st he voted to extend FISA for 6 mo., then he voted to condemn MoveOn

--he was in the "new crop" of Senators who came in in 2006 who was supposed to be so pivotal and such a great "coup" for the Democrats, supposedly to be a foil to the repukes--but he was nothing but a trojan horse! apparently he was a "closet repuke" who played everybody for fools & suckers. I'm sure his payola fund has swelled considerably since those two votes.

to tell you the truth, I don't think he's really the sharpest knife in the drawer. in fact, he's pretty durn stoopid, and a traitor to the Dems to boot.

KISS MY *$$, YOU F**KING W*NKER #%&^.

[rodeodance]

424. AND he said NO to Feingold's DE-Funding of the war!!

[ima_sinnic]

430. omg, that's right! that went totally by me ...

with all the other scheist going on, I got sidetracked about that bill.

sheesh, he needs to be tarred and feathered! what a fake! the guy is TOTALLY SHIFTY, a JUNIOR LIEbermann.

[redqueen]

429. Ah geez... *sigh*

I didn't know... thanks for the education. :(

[Pyrzqxgl]

449. And you think the dumbass voters of Virginia are going to send a true Progressive to the Senate!

Ain't going to happen real quick folks. Still a lot of Repugs & Demo-rednecks in that state. I guess Webb's a start.

[ChiciB1]

386. Even I, Who Lives In Florida Gave Money To Him! Now, I Once Again

feel a STUPID! Where once I would check in here and blog every day, now there are times that a whole week goes by that I don't! As a Boomer, I consider myself a political junky from a long time back and am reaching the point that I feel completely USELESS!

I have declined to be involved with local politics anymore and when people call I say NO! Until recently I still thought I could be helpful in electing a nominee for our party, but I'm beginning to feel that TOO is useless. I have given more money that I can afford to the candidate I support, but pretty much "the powers that be" have DECIDED F0R US just who it will be.

Yes, we have been betrayed, not only by a General/Generals and a WH, but even those in our own party. It IS about MONEY and not policy issues. It's about WHO YOU KNOW and WHO WILL pull the strings for you, IT IS NOT about "We The People" anymore. That's my opinion and I don't really want to keep digging myself into a hole only get covered over by the crap they're throwing at us!

I hear it all the time..."Throw The Bums Out" but that IS NOT ever going to happen because from my perspective, given ALL that has gone on these past 6 plus years very little has been done to hold ANYONE accountable. Any fight we've tried to muster has almost always ended in failure. And I truly don't think when you have corporations and monied people "select" a leader for the Democratic Party that it is going to change.

Whether we want it or not, it looks like there are too many people out there who have lined up behind Hillary Clinton whether they really think she's the best person to lead us or not. Just this past month I've seen quite few posts made by some here listing ALL the people and corporations supporting her. This is no MISTAKE, it's simply one hand washing the other and it breaks my heart. They give their support because they KNOW they will get something in return!!! MSM tells me EVERY SINGLE DAY, Hillary is so far ahead and SHE WILL BE the nominee! The letter has been sent, the message is now being spread, and soon the deal will be closed! And for me, I'm jaded, cynical and it ALL SUCKS! I'm sorry to say something that I didn't believe before, but I now DO think some of our fellow Du'ers may well be padding their wallets. I wish I didn't feel that way and I don't say it lightly because just by saying it I may get kicked off of DU. But when you're on the bottom rung of the ladder you have no where to go anyway.

But I do wonder how those candidates who are running against her must feel? I remember a line in one of the most uttered prayers ever said... Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done....ON EARTH!! The rest is left unsaid because HEAVEN has NOTHING to do with this.

If I don't get kicked off I will probably still comment and support who I do, but my spirit has been broken, not only by those in the WH, but by "our" supposed leaders and the MONEY that guides them forward, without a second thought about what they are doing.

Too many times lately the thought goes through my mind about ROME and the one who FIDDLED!! America too is burning and we CAN'T stop it!!!

[ima_sinnic]

426. yes! I too lived in Fla at the time! & could hardly afford to donate

to a candidate. But the cause of Jim Webb seemed impt enough and sincere enough to give to.
I feel like suing him for false advertising or some such in small claims court to get my donation back. A little legal gesture to put the spotlight on his duplicitous ways.

plus I, too, am full of apathy, just watching the country be destroyed and now figuring it might as well go completely down the tubes b/c The People apparently don't give a rat's @$$ about it so it will have to go to its ultimate, desolate end before anything will happen. The fact that impeachment didn't happen a long time ago made me very very cynical, on top of realizing back in 2000 that the American people are largely ignoramuses and dolts (i.e., their votes for the dipwad a-hole "president"--whether or not he "won" legitimately, which he didn't--enough did vote for him to pull it off) so I've moved out to the boondocks, the fringes, hopefully to be out of the range of splatter of s**t hitting fan.

[Horse with no Name]

422. But he gave a couple of good speeches

Seems like that is all "some" need to hear to deem a candidate worthy of adulation.

[ima_sinnic]

431. I guess that was enough to fool me

:blush: :dunce: :grr: :mad:

[ChiciB1]

434. I Think WE All Got Caught Up In the "Makaka" Moment!

Couldn't fathom the alternative so we made a "deal with the devil" to some degree!

Too late to say... fool me once, blah, blah, blah! What is done can't be undone, but it sure makes me wonder if I EVER want to vote again.

I have decided to vote in the Primary for the candidate of my choice... but if it's Hillary, I no longer care, I'm sitting it out! I was sitting on the fence anyway, now I've made up my mind!

For me, she will be no better than what we have now! That's really something coming from one who once thought Hillary would be my choice! Go ahead and hit me, call me what you will I'm not going to fight back. I just won't vote for her!

[Horse with no Name]

435. You won't get an argument from me either

I no longer believe just getting Democrats in office will be enough.
Too many of them serve their corporate masters as well as their Republican counterparts.
Which is exactly why Hillary is the MSM/corporate candidate.
A vote for Hillary is a vote for more of the same.

[EstimatedProphet]

329. Then form your own board!

Leave! Form another board where you can say what you want! Be an admin on that board so you can make your own rules! If it's so terrible here, the door's on the right!

[Skittles]

331. yeah, like "America, love it or leave it"

certainly no room for IMPROVEMENT

[EstimatedProphet]

339. It is a DISCUSSION BOARD

The internet is full of them. If people don't like this one, because they don't agree with the rules that they agreed to when they signed up, they are free to go somewhere else. It's not exactly the same damn thing as being forced out of your own country!

If people are no longer willing to support the party, that's their choice. Complaining that they can't denigrate the party on a board set up with the express intent of supporting the party is silly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

403. How come it is only "denigrating the party" when we talk about

Hillary and the blue dogs and DLC - but people can say anything they want about DK and progressives?

Part of the discussion IS bitching about what is wrong with the party - WHY we are not accomplishing anything.

Next time some jackass complains about the "far left" (as if!) I'll have to throw up this "denigrating the party" line - and just watch how THAT shakes down.

[EstimatedProphet]

405. Here's why:

Yet so many of us are no longer willing to support this party and its elected officials.

Which is what I was talking about. Everyone is free to leave. But if you're not going to support the party, then why expect to be able to stay on a board which is about supporting the party? There's more than enough boards out there to discuss other things. There's enough other parties out there too, that people should be able to find one that represents what they believe. Complain about things all you want - but leaving means leaving.

[RaleighNCDUer]

409. Hey, if some jackass wants to bitch about me he's more than

welcome to pull a lieberman. Denigrating progressives is ALSO denigrating democrats.

SUPPORTING THE PARTY MEANS SUPPORTING PROGRESSIVES, TOO.

The people who bitch most about us being here are the same ones who say we should support them, and then get offended when we say "maybe you should see what this party would look like without us".

[EstimatedProphet]

412. I don't know what you're talking about, but it isn't about what I said

I'm saying that this is a private discussion board with rules, which people were required to read when they signed up. If you don't like the rules, don't post here. If you don't want to be in the party anymore, then join another one. What you can't do is expect the rules to be changed because you don't like them. What you can't do is leave the party and expect to retain the influence that being a member of the party provides, like voicing your opinion.

DU is a private message board. It is not a speaker's corner, nor is it supposed to be. There isn't an inalienable right to say whatever someone wants here, otherwise we'd be overrun with freepers.

[Truth2Tell]

471. overrun with freepers

or progressives. eeek.

[AZBlue]

475. Then why are you here?

I'm not telling you or anyone else to get off DU - but if it's not the site that represents your concerns, why are you here?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. K&R, my dear Redstone...

Well said, again!

I hope he will respond as well...

Damn but you write well!

[BeatleBoot]

9. Not Enough Votes To Override a Presidential Veto, for starters...

And as long as the Republicans are in a lose-lose situation, perhaps the Napoleon quote is apropos...

"Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake".

We will see great change once the White House is inhabited by a Democrat.

Frustrating?

You betcha.

But it is what it is.

[Greyhound]

31. Upon exactly what, do you base this belief that all we need is a Democrat in the

White House? We've been here time and time again, and my ass is sore.

[BeatleBoot]

71. I base it on...

I base it on Bill Clinton

I base it on Al Gore

I base it on Franklin Roosevelt

I base it on Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Carter.

Yep, that's the basis of my statement.

Spot on.

I haven't "been there time and time again", so I don't understand what you meant. Sorry.

I'm also sorry about the soreness you are experiencing, too.

Any soreness I've experienced has been from Republicans.

[Greyhound]

85. You will understand it soon enough.

BTW; Bill Clinton was the best Republican President since Lincoln

Al Gore isn't running and when he was in office was hardly a model of fighting for the average American

FDR's legacy has all but been destroyed and there is absolutely no political will in power to reestablish it

Truman was the tool that brought us the secret government of the NSC (an absolutely essential element, without which, none of the rest of this coup could ever have happened)

They killed Kennedy when he tried to change things

Johnson was a typical Texas clusterfuck

and Carter was, while a very good man, the poster boy for the Peter Principle

Read some Zinn, Hartmann, Chomsky, McGerr, etc.

[BeatleBoot]

107. I agree...I know that I will realize it soon enough

Because I know that I will do better under an administration run by Democrats.

That is a fact.

I will realize it soon enough.

My standard of living as well as my household income has declined since Bush and the Republicans took office.

It rose under Clinton.

My father's standard of living rose under FDR, declined under Eisenhower, rose under Kennedy and Johnson...

But since, you said mean things about my heroes - FDR, Kennedy, Clinton, may I respond?

And I will be a gentleman about this: I wish the best for Mr. Kucinich.

When is his next appearance on Star Trek?

[sufrommich]

110. I shouldn't laugh

but I do. LOL.

[Greyhound]

300. Please do, but understand that there is a difference between

doing better and doing less badly.

I didn't say anything mean about Kennedy or FDR, though neither was perfect, both were excellent.

I relish any debate about Clinton, especially when it comes to the working person.:evilgrin:

[ChiciB1]

389. I KNOW From Where You Come! Maybe Those Of Us Who Were

activists from the past "seem" to expect too much now, but having SEEN WHAT could be accomplished it's pretty difficult to "Keep The Faith!"

When those who try to rise up to fight for our rights, get SLAPPED in the face by those who are supposed to be on our side, and those who actually vote to silence the voice of dissent, how can you feel you've been anything but F--Ked????

[Greyhound]

407. That pretty much sums it up.

I think it's time for a break, maybe an extended one.

There is a single-minded determination to not see what is coming that I find profoundly disturbing. This makes me ask, if we can't get through here, a fairly large scale community of "forward thinkers", what hope is there to head off, or even alleviate, the hard times?

[ChiciB1]

416. And Even HERE... We Get Told To "Leave Or Form Our Own Site" But

those who say this just don't realize how long we've fought. I can only assume they don't understand how impotent and invisible we think we've become! Just "taking a break" from time to time used to work, but for me I think I've HIT THE WALL!

Even so, old habits are hard to break but I do feel I've been left out in the cold and don't know where to turn to warm up again!

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. GMTA!

:toast:

Many Iraqis died as a result of Clinton's sanctions. Then there was NAFTA and Waco.

Johnson was an evil son of a bitch and a war monger on top of that.

Truman - I am from KC (his hometown) and can tell you more stories about Truman's corrupt legacy than you would care to hear.

The only good thing about our 20th century Dem presidents is that they were all less bad than the republican presidents.

[redqueen]

358. RE: No will to build on FDR's legacy.

That frustrates me the most.

[bobbolink]

91. Clinton = the best REpublican president since Nixon, who was more liberal.

Clinton royally screwed over poor folk, and I resent the constant deifying of him.

[JDPriestly]

243. You are naive. It is not enough to elect someone who calls him or herself a Democrat.

We need a Democrat with Democratic values and spine. That is why I am for Edwards. He had the common sense to get out of that assembly of mealy-mouthed idiots called the Democratic caucus in the Senate.

[earthlover]

112. Um...the Constitution?!!!

Back to Civics Class...how many votes does it take to pass a bill? How many votes does it take to over-ride a veto? Hmmm....it requires fewer votes for us to win with a Democratic Pres who would not veto!

How about a filibuster? Well, it still takes 60% to end a filibuster, but the president can exert lots more pressure on our side if he/she is a Democrat than if republican.

The solution is clear: elect more Dems into Congress and the Senate and elect a Dem President!!!

Or we could always take the nader route and figure it does not matter, and REALLY enable the Republicans by giving them control over everything!

Doesn't seem a very good choice, considerings as how this turned out in Florida in 2000, giving us Bush and hanging chads.

[robinlynne]

173. The republicans have not filibustered once yet. They don't have to. All they

have to do is mention it and the Dems walk away and hand over power.

[Greyhound]

418. Apparently you have not been paying attention. The political game

entails that a veto is forced and then you use it to beat the other party over the head with until they support the over-ride. If you never get to the resident you get nothing and you accomplish nothing except to reinforce the opposition's lies about how ineffective you are.

Our lack of progress has nothing to do with the squatter in the White House, it is about an unwillingness to even try, which clearly demonstrates a lack of will.

[earthlover]

490. so you don't think having Bush as president has anything to do with anything?

Then why are we complaining about Bush?

I'm sorry...but saying who is president doesn't make any difference is not worth arguing over.

If you want to believe this fiction, be my guest!

[Greyhound]

494. Since January of this year, not really. As I said if you don't force him to actually veto anything

his veto is not the issue. Since the Democrats came to power, they have forced arbusto_® to veto exactly two bills, stem cells and a pay raise for the troops he claims to love.

Now, tell me again how hard they are working on our behalf and how, if not for the evil bogey man, things would be so much better.:eyes:

Face it, they are doing nothing with the majority we gave them, which BTW, would be much bigger, probably veto proof, if not for election fraud, yet another issue they refuse to even talk about.

[JDPriestly]

240. Sorry. This was not a matter of our having too few votes to override a veto.

This was a matter of the Republicans bringing a resolution specifically intended to divide our Democratic Party and succeeding in getting an embarrassing number of our senators to fall for their scheme. This is about the fact that a surprising number of our senators are stupid and disloyal to us their constituents and to the Democratic Party and everything we stand for -- like free speech and telling the truth and insisting that generals tell the truth. If they didn't want to vote against the resolution, they should have abstained. It was a political trap. This is the tip of the iceberg. Not a one of the senators who claim to be Democrats and who voted for this is worth their weight in mud when it comes to strategy. They should all resign. What idiots. No one is going to respect them. They are a worthless, but worst of all, a stupid bunch. This measure was not intended to help the troops, not even to apologize to Betrayus. It was strictly intended to divide Democrats in the senate from the Democrats in the base. These senators are the biggest idiots in the world. Fools every one of them. I am furious also.

[Captain Hilts]

417. Yes. So few DUers understand how this process works. nt

[patrioticintellect]

453. Folly of the Least Worst

I'm not subscribing to the folly of the least worst anymore. Kucinich, Gravel, a third-party candidate. No party is entitled to a vote. Democrats don't lose because people vote for the wrong people. Democrats lose cause they run shitty campaigns with shitty agendas.

[cascadiance]

10. Though obviously talking about candidates not from the Democratic Party is discouraged...

... perhaps there could be a moratorium for a while on healthy discussions of other party candidates that might be Green Party, etc. as long as we're not denigrating Democrats in the process to see what all of our "progressive" options are. I think what unifies here is a sense of "progressive" values, not necessarily "Democratic" values, when the party's been arguably hijacked by many that don't have progressive values.

[TwilightGardener]

11. You don't speak for me--I don't need any consolation. I'm frustrated

because we don't have the votes to end the war--that's it. My anger is directed at Republican Senators, not at Democrats.

[trashcanistanista]

26. Same here. i see rethugs in lockstep obstructing

I also see dems in lockstep trying and trying and trying. The math is not on our side at this time. Dems are still trying. They have not given up. Turn on CSPAN2 right now if you don't believe this.

[ldf]

172. dems in lockstep?

please pass whatever you are smoking.

the dems couldn't walk lockstep even if all their left legs were tied together and all their right legs were tied together.

the republicans can do the lockstep shuffle blindfolded.

we can't even do anything symbolic.

geez.

:shrug:

[bluescribbler]

350. Will Rogers knew it then

"I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

[redqueen]

360. Excuse me? How about the FAR MORE IMPORTANT Habeas Corpus Restoration Act?

:wtf:

[Blue_Roses]

379. thank-you!

another voice of reason. Rare to see this here anymore.

[Truth2Tell]

474. So we should only criticize the Republicans

who won't end the war? But the Democrats who won't end the war are just honkey dorey?

After all, if we had enough Dems willing to end the war we could end it. And this is a Democratic board.

So why not make constructive criticisms here of our fellow Dems who won't end the war?

Seems reasonable to me. :shrug:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

12. Is it necessary to steal MoveOn's theme and apply it this way?

:shrug:

Moreover, it's terribly inaccurate to characterize all our efforts as being in vain.

Oh, well. I imagine frustration and impatience and emoting and whatnot will spill onto me for making the foregoing statement so I'll,...
:hide:

[Sam Ervin jret]

267. Take a deep breath and let it out. Another day. Another fight. Remember WHO the ENEMY is.

and it's not one another. Solidarity
(is there any room behind that wall?)

[annabanana]

13. What a masterpiece of bad framing.

It's Republican obstruction.

[dbt]

162. Depends on WHO'S doing the framing, doncha think?

[lips]

457. Actually, it doesn't.

The dependence is on the frame, the perspective. If the perspective is false and leads one to false conclusions then it's easier to determine the motivations of the person advancing the argument and why they CHOOSE that way. This entire argument is a simple folly of libertarian sensibilities. Do people think that complaining, writing letters, or otherwise trying to convince the people in power to produce progressive policies is going to do a damn thing? Getting into touch with politicians was supposed to work at one point too.

How is reasonable to expect a discussion community, as well as the work that gets put into it, to garner the necessary momentum to get things changed?

My Humble Opinion: Some people just like to watch the flames of straw men.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

166. My instinct tells me,...otherwise.

If ever a perfectly framed Redstone post,...this would be it.

Hey, Dan Rather names Redstone in his suit. Let us fully support the destruction of the "perfect frames" for consumption by us less than human beings, us gadgets to be bought and sold.

[Telly Savalas]

176. If obstructionism in the Senate is as easy as you're painting it

then why didn't we see a hell of a lot more of it between 2001 and 2006?

[TahitiNut]

14. Reminder: It would only take 41 Senators to halt funding for the Occupation of Iraq.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt the GOP would have waited even a day.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

29. Excellent point..

But I doubt you will get any replies other than mine.

[leftchick]

32. why does everyone avoid that factoid?

:shrug:

[Jacobin]

43. Its the dirty secret of campaign funding

Many democrats are beholden to defense contractors, AIPAC, and others who don't want to see the war end. They may speak in platitudes about a 'changing direction' etc, but when push comes to shove, they want their campaign money. I think that's a lot of it

[leftchick]

46. I think you are exactly right

It is about money, power, greed, getting elected and ZERO about us. :(

[Auntie Bush]

237. However, once they get elected.........they better change color...just like

Bush did! (Remember, he was compassionate. That didn't last long and remember GHWB wouldn't raise taxes) First we have to get elected...then we can/should do what the hell we want. Tough besots if they don't like it.
So, I guess I'm saying the end justifies the means, HORRORS! Did I say that?

[rucognizant]

324. Bush compassionate?

Just because he said he was? Oh come-on! He comdemned more prisoners to death in Texas, as Governor than any other, then he "tells " us he's compassionate! At the 2000 Repug convention, he called us "FOLKS". I saw that for what it was instantly! Future King designating his "SERFS" PEASANTS"
We were urged by this administration after 9/11 to be in a heightened state of awareness........... people are getting there slowly one by one, but it isn't to report suspicious "towel heads at airports" but to see beneath the curtain, what's really going on/.
For God's sake, don't veer off into 3rd party NOW! TIM JOHNSON'S VOTE HAS NOT BEEN THERE: NOW HE"S BACK! GET RID OF THE OFFENSIVE DEMS. YOU IN THOSES STATES KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO DO................ A couple of my friends who voted for NAder in 200, are now working to support the Democratic party. A lot of Republicans who voted for Bush are having buyers remorse and are open to listen.......Rome wasn't built ( or destroyed ) in a day!
It's like sculpting! You don't throw out the whole mess of clay because you don't like it today..........................You scoop it out here, smooth it there, add to it another place, until you have a pleasing piece.
This would be easier if Nixon hadn't cut the funding to the arts in Public schools in 1973. An awful lot of Americans are visually illiterate! They can be a rocket scientist, math whizz, but visually illiterate! Even those brain bashing, ADHD producing, "stars" are mislabeled "artists" There my be a few good musicians, but most are just a counterpoint or a drumbeat to the sales pitch we are getting from "journalists, advertisers, on tee vee! If they weren't they would be trashed by the media instead of idolized, supported..... On the other hand visual artists are being minimized, diasappeared or. sucked into the right wing propaganda machine. ( the best stage production/graphic design, in the last decade has been in service to the REPIGS!)

I will repeat the story ONCE AGAIN. The infamous day Colin Powell addressed us from the UN, I knew INSTANTLY, it was a set-up, because for that ONE DAY. they had covered the tapestry of Picasso's Guernica, A graphically explicit painting of the horrors of war. Visual Art has the power to cause an unconcious emotional response from the viewer, whether "trained in art appreciation or not. THE DAY AFTER HIS SPEECH THE TAPESTRY WAS BACK IN PLACE!
So we need to work at becoming more wholistic, while we are trying to change the political landscape.! Kucinich has the idea! If you think he is weird and unelectable now ; DO a little reading! take a yoga class, meditate! If we had moved in with the Native Americans and adopted some of their ideas; we would be in a very different ( much better place now)
I have made my living in the art field for 45 years, spending 8-10 hours a day in the RIGHT BRAIN hemisphere. Now that the population of the USA, has doubled, my potential customer base has dropped to maybe 10%, from 75%? My last best customers? A Mexican Immigrant family, who were so pleased with the job I did for them.....they paid me more than I asked for.
Their employer/landlady has chased them off to another state by requiring an exclusive work committiment to HER enterprises, rather than some freelancing that was bringing them short term extra bucks.
Does their wealthy landlady several centuries American, buy artwork? NOPE!
It's an attitude shift/ education we need as much as better politicians!

[bobbolink]

135. BINGO! Except I think it goes even deeper than that.....

More than just campaign funds..... influence, possibly more corrupt uses....

It's what we really should be talking about, rather than this division of Dem against Dem, and slamming those who see it differently.

We really never have come to grips with the consequences of so much money involved in our government. What will it take?

[bobbolink]

96. Why avoid the obvious? Because it would result in depression, rage, and feeling of helpelessness.

Some will do anything at all to avoid that.




ps... BTW, I was surprised to learn that "factoid" actually doesn't mean a little fact, it means something that is not true. My life was not improved by learning that.... :hi:

[leftchick]

100. I didn't know that

thanks :hi:

[KoKo]

158. Because Both Parties just love those "Smoke & Mirrors...Smoke & Mirrors."

it allows so much to go on....and drift away...drift away...

[lips]

458. Scrumptous point.

Were I making leadership decisions for the democrats in the senate, all governmental busniess would come to a abrupt halt.

[Greyhound]

39. ...and mine, but then, we agree... n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. Hell! They don't even have to put the bill on the floor! They control what gets voted on.

They didn't have to put the FISA Amendment up for a vote and they did. Why?????

[old guy]

54. Agreed.

Maybe one can put an anonymous hold on the funding bill as the repubs have done several times. Possible?

[PA Democrat]

108. Better be careful. That's a mighty unpopular little factoid.

Personally, I am with you in that I am SICK of the constant stream of excuses. I

[TahitiNut]

119. Isn't it about time? It's NOT like the GOP wasn't given OTHER choices.

They ignored us when we siad 'NO!' to the Iraq War Resolution. They refused to compromise on benchmarks and timelines. They've REFUSED absolutely EVERYTHING except an ENDLESS OCCUPATION and endless killing.

In my opinion, it's about fucking time to stop the horseshit.

Any continuation of the funding for this CRIMINAL occupation of Iraq is outright Fascism!

[robinlynne]

175. THANK-YOU!

[proud2BlibKansan]

250. APPLAUSE!!

:applause:

[Le Taz Hot]

311. TN:

You do have that line in a macro, don't you? I mean, the way it needs to be repeated time and time and time again around here (talk about civics lessons), it would seem to me a macro would save you keystrokes. :evilgrin: :hi:

[redqueen]

361. Yup... Dems are not an anti-war party, and we didn't elect enough anti-war Dems.

Oh well... guess we gotta keep workin then.

[Drum]

16. Is this to the admins, or to us?

:shrug:

[hvn_nbr_2]

17. Pelosi and Reid, I think we have a problem, and we need to hear from you.

I'm not holding my breath waiting to hear anything worth listening to, though.

[Nite Owl]

18. You are right Redstone

Our faith in the dems was misplaced. Most of all I feel like I am being lied to with their message of 'a slim majority'. There are things that they can do but they won't. They didn't have to pass the FISA bill, they don't have to fund this war and then today with the Moveon vote....it goes on. They are taking us for granted because where else are we going to go, we aren't going to vote for the GOP but voting for 'not as bad as' just doesn't work anymore.

[grasswire]

19. It's not Skinner's task to nanny disaffected Dems.

What these unhappy Dems OUGHT to do is start hassling Republicans. Get busy and start shouting at those on the right, who actually can make things happen, given the fact that Dems don't have enough votes to make their base happy.

Why are you all terrorizing Democrats? Why not push hard against Republicans???? Just a little movement in the GOP would allow Dems to get the votes WE want.

This current fool's game is only benefitting Bush and those same actors who worked to split the Democratic Party in 2000.

[trashcanistanista]

27. Better yet, get out and pick them clean.

Register democrats. Many rethugs are ready to switchover.

[grasswire]

48. that, too.....

...Thanks.

[Pyrzqxgl]

461. Yeah, lets bring some more Blue Dog Democrats into the party?

[bobbolink]

114. Why are using using such ugly terms like "nanny" and "terrorizing"?

Why are people like you trying to DIVIDE us and have an all-out war against those you don't agree with???? What is to be gained from that?

Come time to support the party for an election, and people like you want us all pulling together. Yet, you do your best before that time to shove us out of the party. What's up with that? Can you drop the criticism for a minute, and just reply to that?

We've already gotten the clear message that we're not wanted in the party. If that's how you feel, then say that instead of being insulting.

Then, be prepared to pull the party with many fewer members and voters.

[VolcanoJen]

167. Exactly!!!

The solution to this is Mo' Better Dems.

Bush is employing Rove 101 tactics to split progressives. It's working, in the sense that those moron Dems who voted for this junk show pony censure today are fraidy cats. It's working, in the sense that the media has been running with this shite all day long. But it's not working with the American people. There's no movement in the polls. Hatred of the war is fossilized in public opinion.

Mo' Better Dems. Dems that stand up. That is what is needed... oh, and constant mocking and humiliation of an unpopular President and an unpopular war. Shout at the right, indeed!

[133724]

20. It only takes one senator to put a secret HOLD on a senate resolution...

[onenote]

93. then why didn't feingold do so? Or another progressive Democrat?

Not picking a fight. Just asking to see if anyone has an answer.

[TygrBright]

21. Skinner's job is to run a website.

Not to be Apologist-in-Chief or Executive Explainer for the Democratic Party.

Why not address these questions to the DNC, the DSCC, and other Party leadership?

bewilderedly,
Bright

[appalachianguy]

23. Problems for sure but Dems fired up better than rolling over

Hi Redstone,

You certainly have a legitimate observation concerning
Democratic
disillusionment, however I like seeing the Dems fired up and
fighting
to gain ground rather than going back to that submissive
attitude
which prevailed for years, even decades. The Dems have only
had the
White House 12 years out of the last 40 and the Congress has
been GOP
controlled from 1994 to last fall. I'm proud to call myself a
Democrat
for the first time in my life after the 2006 House and Senate
gains.
The frustration is mainly because of Bush vetoes of recent
congressional
efforts to stop the war in Iraq and a lack of passed
democratic bills.
We need to carry this fire to the general election next year
and when
we have a Democratic president to compliment the congress, we
will prevail!

AppGuy 

[redqueen]

363. Great post! Things didn't get this bad overnight...

it'll take a good while to fix them.

:hi:

[Lex]

24. For realsies? Why look to Skinner for this?

He's a heckuva a smart guy and I have unlimited admiration for him, but he's not a cheerleader--and I'm guessing he prefers that we work through (or talk through) our frustrations with the Democrats and the Democratic Party ourselves.

[bobbolink]

143. How's that working out?

[Lex]

146. DU seems to be thriving (as it has for years) and I don't notice a lack of discourse

or debate here so it seems to be working out pretty well.

Point is, Skinner's words of wisdom, although I'm sure they would be wise, aren't going to solve anything either.

[bobbolink]

152. Lack of discourse, POLITE, yes. This is a MAJOR problem.

The divide of a party.

You can dismiss all you want.

This is something BIG, and Skinner would do well to pay attention.

[Lex]

154. LOL.

I think its amusing that you think Skinner isn't paying attention.

[bobbolink]

160. Your sneer is also "amusing", and points to exactly what I'm saying.

Thanks for giving a good example.

[Lex]

170. No sneer at all.

No need to be paranoid.

[bobbolink]

174. Ah, yes....... attacking the character of the messenger...

Geeee, where have we all seen that tactic before?

You're so used to sneering at others that you don't even recognize you're doing it.

Peace... remember the concept.

[Lex]

180. Wow.

Cool how you do that.

[cui bono]

229. Well I hope Skinner reads this whole thread so he can get you guys to kiss and make up.

;)

[Lex]

261. I didn't even realize we were mad.

I certainly wasn't!

[Puglover]

355. Lex honey.

Remember to whom you are talking.

[JuniperLea]

477. Seems you replied with the same

Perhaps the thing to do is to walk away... it takes two to tango ya know.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

25. This Country And It's So-Called Democracy Are A JOKE!!

And someone tell me that things are going to somehow get better in my lifetime. YEAH, RIGHT!

We can't even get Al Gore to run.

Can't wait for Queen Hillary to come to our rescue.

"Our future's so bright, I gotta wear shades." Otherwise I'll probably go blind.

[redqueen]

371. Maybe it won't get better in your lifetime.

What does that matter?

We just have to keep working to elect more Dems... and more progressive Dems. That's the only direction we can go, unless by some miracle we get some desperately-needed election reforms passed. I don't see that happening until we elect more progressive Dems, though so... just have to keep pushing.

[dailykoff]

28. 60 years of intel con jobs = no more democracy.

Boo hoo, we're so dumb we can't see that we're getting fleeced up one side and down the other by the crooks who control Congress, the papers, and the TV stations, and until we wise up we're going to keep losing what we thought we'd never lose.

[Vilis Veritas]

230. What dailykoff said...read it. Know it. Believe it.

No amount of whining is going to get you what you want.

Time to get busy.

No Fear.

[ChiciB1]

392. We HAVE Been Busy!! For A VERY, VERY LONG TIME!! It Adds Up

to ZERO!!!

[saracat]

420. I would hardly say John Edwards is zero! Don't you think he "listens"

Progress is being made. We cannot go from this regime to being 100% progressive overnight. The Civil Rights movenent took decades.Unlike what we might want change is slow!

[ChiciB1]

428. I Was Part Of The Civil Rights Movement (Sort Of) Because I Lived

in Texas and remember the upheaval even though I was very young. But I do remember the upheaval and it was then I felt my activism stirring! My father introduced politics to me when I was 11 years old and I believed in "my country" all these years. What I'm seeing now isn't the country I believed in and those we call "our" leaders don't seem to care.

Do I BELIEVE in John Edwards?? Yes, with all my heart! And I will do whatever I can to get HIM elected!

What has begun to bother me so much is those here who keep posting REAMS AND REAMS of names and CORPORATIONS who I'm told support HILLARY CLINTON! Something smells about this and it's a really FOUL smell too! Her name has begun to grate on my nerves because it sure doesn't smell like DEMOCRACY to me!

The right to dissent, the freedom of speech that I grew up with is "blowin in the wind!"

Tomorrow is another day, my depression is in high gear today, my wish will be that my spirits will regenerate. But I wonder.

[SaveElmer]

30. Wrong...direct your ire at Republicans

Democrats in Congress have done much...this kind of post belies a lack of concern for the realities of the small majority we hold. It just astonishes me how many people believe the party in the majority can simply wave a magic wand and everything they want is instantaneously completed...

Democrats are not to blame for lack of progress in these areas, Republicans are...direct your anger at them...

Sen Reid has brought measure after measure to the floor to hasten an end to the war...but despite the fact that a majority clearly supports them, Republicans have used procedural rules to block them...

And any proactive legislation on energy, healthcare etc has to get by both the Republicans and W...

So rather than complain that Democrats are not all powerful, work your ass off to get them the votes they need to make the progress they and everyone wants...and work your ass off to get a Democratic President in the White House!!!

[ShortnFiery]

33. Nope, I'll direct my energies at ending these damn occupations - Country trumps Party! nt

[Greyhound]

47. Yet amazingly the Republiks managed to get all sorts of disasters

to the squatters. They have no qualms about refusing to let bills come to the floor, they have no qualms about tying things up in committee forever, they have no qualms about filibustering, etc.

It's far past time to keep making up excuses and face the fact that they do not represent us, period. We are, and have been, in a war for a long time but only one side has been waging it, our Democratic representatives have chosen which side they will fight for, have you?

[Selatius]

62. If Reid wanted to get serious with ending the war, he could filibuster an Iraq spending bill.

Once a Democratic filibuster is started, the Repubs would need 60 votes to break a filibuster.

[BeatleBoot]

133. And Then Get It Shoved Down The Democrats Throats in 2008

No more chance at the White House.

No more chance for National Health Care.

No more chance to get the Economy out of the shitter.

No more chance to crack down on predatory Mortgage companies.

No more chance to start enforcing NAFTA side agreements to make trade more equitable.

No more chance to stop domestic spying.

No more chance to help what's left of the middle class.


Another lost chance to change our country...

But at least with a Republican in the White House we all could still rally against, "the man"...and spend more time thinking about more conspiracy theories relating to 9-11.

[Selatius]

136. I doubt that. We agree to disagree.

If anything, people would take notice that Democrats are finally fighting for something. People want Democrats to do something about Iraq. It's the biggest reason why Repubs lost both houses of Congress.

[BeatleBoot]

251. Finally fighting for something??? Really.....

Oh, such exasperation at the Democrats because they don't fight for anything...

You mean like, after all of these years, they haven't been fighting for:

Civil rights
Equal pay
A woman's right to choose
A minimum wage
A living wage
Health care for all
Worker's rights
Parity in mental health care
Medicare
Social Security
The Middle Class
Me

If you don't think the Democrats have been fighting for these things then I beg you to stop enjoying the benefits of what they have earned - NOW.

Give me a break.

I refuse to let anyone - anyone - disparage the Democratic Party. Especially when the people complaining are benefiting from what we have fought for.

You can be frustrated with them - fine.

But don't you dare bad mouth them.

We have fought hard for what we have today - and no one --- No one --- will take that away.

I AM A PROUD DEMOCRAT.

PROUD.

DAMNED PROUD.

AND I WILL NOT BE MOVED!

[Selatius]

268. No need for the diatribe, and the Democratic Party is never above constructive criticism.

They could be doing a whole lot better than what they've been doing for the people of America, from the minimum wage to workers rights to fair trade and protecting civil liberties in the face of authoritarian encroachment, but I'm going to save that for a different discussion.

As far as the immediate issue at hand, I think the Democrats could do a whole lot more to end the devastating war in Iraq than they currently have, and I think that's fair criticism.

[ChiciB1]

395. Well, As One Who Has Lived In Florida Throughout The Whole Damn

mess, if YOU think VOTING is the answer I must DISAGREE in the strongest terms! Not only did voting NOT COUNT in 2000 OR 2004, it also DID NOT count in 2006!

I HAVE always voted, and last time out THIS county kinda/sorta LOST 18,000 votes! Gee, I wonder WHOSE vote got lost?? Maybe you should ask Christine Jennings where they went, or better yet VERN BUCHANAN!!

So much money and time was spent on trying to get to the bottom of what "really" went wrong and still no answers! This county STILL is having voting machine problems! We have been told that "some" will have to vote a different way AGAIN!

VOTING, FIGHT BACK?? I don't even know what to say anymore!

[Middle finga]

34. Personally I think we've been bamboozled by the Democratic Party

This is nothing but a Corporate control government with to wings. An extreme rightwing and a moderate wing. The progressive grassroot currently do not have representation in this government. I apologize for having to break the bad news to the DU community but I felt it was time you knew the truth. MF

[grasswire]

49. who did you support in 2000?

Just asking.

[tavalon]

164. Well, since I agree with that poster and who we voted for seems to be your litmus test

I voted for Al Gore. You?

[Middle finga]

208. I supported Gore, but I was very disappointed with him though

He should've beat the idiot in a landslide shouldn't have been close enough to steal. And as an incumbent, how you let the challenger steal the election? Gore should have had all bases covered and if it came down to it demand a full recount or revote if need be.

[toadzilla]

131. i concur.

[Warren Stupidity]

185. Yes of course, but so many here refuse to see it.

Ove and over again my friend we have to patiently explain to them that their 'team' is playing for the other side.

[Individualist]

394. IMO they already know

their team (DLC) is playing for the other side.

[redqueen]

367. I think those on the far left knew that well over a decade ago.

So that's not even an issue. The issue is the best way to change it. From inside the party or from the outside? Those are our options... pick one, and work. That's all we can do.

[G_j]

35. K&R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

& thank you

[spanone]

36. you forgot to mention there are 35,000 MORE soldiers in iraq SINCE the dems won congress

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

66. Damned right!

:banghead:

[Rex]

37. You don't need Skinner to tell you to have hope.

You have hope or not, no one can flip a switch to make you feel one way or another - you just know.

I have hope; we will prevail because we have something on our side that can't be bought or sold and will destroy all opposition.

[Robbien]

38. True. My frustration has been a driving force in my posts. I am sure moderators have been alerted

when my postings have become too colorful in defense of my Progressive beliefs these days.

But really what do you really what Skinner etal to do about it but wait it all out?

[rug]

40. What's Skinner got to do with it? Elad's got the real power.

[youthere]

69. We all know who pulls the DU strings...

[TahitiNut]

125. Elad would starve if EarlG and Skinner didn't bring him carryout.

:evilgrin: ... and Jolt cola.

[renie408]

41. HUH? Seriously. What?

Are you seriously asking for our esteemed leader to speak and tell us what to think? He runs a message board, for christ's sake...he isn't CHRIST.


No offense to Skinner, but this is some stupid shit.

[Annces]

60. I think Redstone has a point

After all Skinner is the one who makes the rules about how this board operates, and nobody can dismiss him in the same way they can the rest of us. I don't think people are jumping ship, but then this place always seems a little crazy to me.

[renie408]

68. That's the point. It's ALWAYS a little crazy. And I always thought of Skinner

more along the lines of a referee. I think that in the five years I have come here, I have only seen him post on GD or GD:P like five times. I don't live here or anything, but I come in and out pretty frequently. I figured he offered the space for the discussion, set the rules, made sure everybody played nice (or at least didn't kill each other)and raised the money to keep the 'roof' over our heads. I have just never thought of him as our 'leader'. And honestly, I am not so sure I like the idea.

[H2O Man]

Skinner could easily

take some action on DU that would lower oil prices.

[Dora]

375. LOL.

Wise, and funny too. What a way to be.
:)

[Arugula Latte]

44. I would love to see an election where turncoat Dems in safe D districts are defeated in primaries.

Can you imagine ... a Congress full of Democrats ... who actually ACT like true Democrats ... instead of these GOP-lite Bushco enablers?

***IMAGINE***

[AllyCat]

286. Ahhhhh.....that is a beautiful sight, isn't it? n/t

[leftchick]

335. true democrats is a notion that has become quaint

sadly.

[AuntPatsy]

50. That was beautifully put Redstone, I think your right, it seems most people

need to have a leader of sorts whether they believe so or not, I think it's pretty obvious after reading DU the past couple of days, and I don't believe that the primary's craziness comes even close to the outrage and what seems to be a loss of hope regarding the leaders we at present want and seemingly need to look up to.

Important issues seem to have been lost, that kind of terrifies me, is this the same way our dem leaders holding office feel? Becoming so overwhelmed by mindless diversions that they and we have lost track of what is most important for this country and it's people?

[Atman]

51. And yet...no reply from Skinner.

:shrug:

.

[Redstone]

57. Hey, it's 7 at night, and he has a baby. I wouldn't expect to hear from him until

tomorrow. He has a life outside DU, doesn't he?

Redstone

[Atman]

65. So do I, but I'm here.

I see that the OP was only about an hour or so ago, so I can certainly cut him some slack. But not much.

.

[goodgd_yall]

59. Maybe he has a life apart from DU

ya think?

[Atman]

87. GOSH!

What an enlightened response!

.

[bunkerbuster1]

105. Skinner's changed! He used to be about the MUSIC!

[renie408]

76. WE HAVE BEEN ABANDONED! (is this our cue to run around like chickens with our heads cut off?)

I just want to make sure I run off the cliff with everybody else when it happens.

(I think I just mixed chickens and lemmings together....)

[hvn_nbr_2]

80. I expect we'll hear from Skinner.

When we do, it will be a well-considered and thought-out response. Some of us will like it and some of us won't.

[Redstone]

53. How many of these replies prove my point precisely?

I'm not asking Skinner to be a nanny, for Christ's sake.

I'm not asking him to solve anyone's problems.

I'm just observing that DU seems to be in trouble, and telling him what I see that makes me think that. And, as I said, anyone can agree or not, no matter to me.

I can live without DU. But I'd rather not have to. Therefore, I'm doing what I think I can do to help.

End of discussion on my part. I've said what I have to say, and whether it makes a difference or not, at least I can say I tried.

Redstone

[renie408]

63. NO, dude, it's just primary season.

You came to the party late last time. You should have joined in December 2003 and ridden the ride up until the election.

And it's ALWAYS like this. I have been visiting here off and on for about five years and every time I wander in, it's like this. Some people are freaking out and saying that the Dem party is falling apart, some people are freaking out because the Dem leaders are pussies/Republicans in disguise/in the pay of corporations, some people are at each other's throats because they know THEIR candidate is the best one and everybody else is arguing about...whatever.

[Blue-Jay]

102. You have a point?

Maybe I'm not a crusty old fart with a cowboy mustache, but I'm not seeing any point that is worth addressing. Much less one that should be directed at Skinner personally.

[bobbolink]

165. I think you missed one observation....

I think there is a serious division in the party that is coming to a head.

Yes, there were clues before, but it has been dismissed.

Dismissing it now could be a big mistake.

Addressing it now could maybe even help mend it.

It isn't just about DU... it goes much deeper, but if we can discuss it with courtesy, maybe we can even be a force for healing in the party at large.

[Blue_Roses]

380. You think this is trouble?

You obviously missed the primaries here in '04. That was rich. Growing pains always make one frustrated.

[tom_paine]

55. Yes. Skinner, for the love of God, speak comfort to me!

And no, I am not being facetious.

Tell us what we are missing. Tell us the magic of the dry powder or whatever is the Big Reason That We Will All Be Amazed and Astonished When It Happens, as well as realizing how foolish we were to question the brilliant long-term Democratic strategy.

Please. I'm not kidding.

Please?

[L. Coyote]

249. Why do people think Skinner reads DU

:rofl:

[understandinglife]

56. Well stated. True. Recommended.

[KitchenWitch]

58. Thank you, Redstone

You have articulated my feelings very succinctly!

[rndmprsn]

61. K+R BIG TIME!

[DangerDave921]

64. Politics

There are several paradigms at work here:

1. Things change slowly. Ten months, in the grand scheme of things, is not all that much time.

2. Dems are not in absolute power, able to do whatever they want. They have to combat a Republican minority that can filibuster, as well as a President with veto power.

3. You may be wrong to assume that all Dem leaders share your values as to what needs to change. As Joe Lieberman proved in CT, there are a lot of people who vote Dem but do not share all the values that most DU'ers have. Dems have to answer to all their citizens, not just DU'ers.

4. Politicians, by nature, are mostly scared to do anything to upset the apple cart and risk their re-election. Hence, inaction is preferable to staying safe and making a mistake.

5. And last, what can Skinner do about it? Wave a magic wand to make the Senate and House do something?

[Redstone]

103. Uh, no. Joe Lieberman got elected by REPUBLICANS. Do your research.

Redstone

[DangerDave921]

111. Excuse me?

Are you telling me that no Democrats voted for Joe Lieberman? Please share with me the research that shows that. I personally know two people in CT, life-long Dems both, who voted for Joe.

Obviously, Repubs voted for him too. But won't you admit that there are some Dems who like Joe?

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sufrommich]

157. Oh my God

"Jewish Democrats who put Israel first". Where did you pick up that little nugget?

[connecticut yankee]

483. I grew up with it

that does not mean that I think ALL the Jewish people put Israel first, or that they voted for Lieberman.

But there are many Jewish people who think that Israel's interests come before any other. My parents were two examples of this.

[kenfrequed]

177. Really now...

The Jewish democrat vote in the general election is not THAT overwhelming. Oh yeah and most of the Jewish Dems I know are conscientiously active in their local primaries so logically Lamonte won over quite a bit there.


REAL REASONS;
--There are a lot of whiney conservative/DLC old gaurd party folk that were happy with the status quo-incumbant and jumped ship after the primaries.

--Faux Newts trumpeted his triumphs continually and Holy Joe is paying back the repubs.

--The end times creeps voted for him in the name of Jesus.

--Incumbants sadly do tend to win.

--Some of the independents stupidly decided they liked someone that would 'buck the system.' Yeah right... like a coporate scumbag like liberman is going to buck the insider K street politics as usual.

--Lamont was not the most progressive candidate that was running for party endorsement.

[robinlynne]

184. jsut for the record, I have a lot of family up there, jewish. They ALL voted AGAINSt Lieberman.

Real Dems did not support Leiberman. I mean real dems.

[DangerDave921]

317. Jews?

I can assure you that my two friends are not Jewish. And they are life-long Dems, even voting for Walter Mondale.

So yes, I do think there is a wing of the Dem party that is not as far left as DU.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. Thank you very much Redstone! Highly recommended! eom

[xchrom]

70. ree republic must be loving this -- still you have a point.

[Redstone]

97. The fuck do I care what THEY think? As as to you personally,

it's good to hear from you. Been a while, I think.

Redstone

[nini]

72. with all due respect.. Skinner should not have to be lead cheerleader here

He runs a site where WE can discuss and encourage - he is not a cheerleader. He has had valuable input before but I doubt even he expects to run the site to the point where he has to hold everyone's hand.

Perhaps a better use of DU would be to drill into people's heads that even though we have a slim majority the Republicans still block just about everything we try to do - that is the real problem. Until people let that sink in there is nothing Skinner can say that will make everyone feel better.

[renie408]

73. What they said. n/t

[bridgit]

296. completely factual...

:thumbsup:

[Quantess]

299. Exactly.

What can Skinner do about this?
Otherwise, I like the Original Post.

[sufrommich]

74. Sad day

when you start relying on the owner of DU for hope and direction. Think and act for yourself. It's just a discussion forum,nothing more or less.

[renie408]

77. Thank you very much. n/t

[distantearlywarning]

75. K&R n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

78. and this is why we always fail.

the republicans spent literally *decades* putting together the machine they have now. We have people ready to give up after six months.

[BeatleBoot]

86. Exactly ! ! ! ! !

Thank you for the post.

Sometimes I wonder if folks are really that impatient or...

If they are just using the fact that things take time in government as an excuse to advance their agenda...

or...

If they are paid freeper-lurkers incognito.

or...

If they just don't get it...

[paulk]

151. hear, hear

:toast:

[bdamomma]

365. right, the dems are cleaning up the shit left by the repigs before

November 2006, can you imagine if the Dems did not get voted in at all in November 2006, how much more shit there would have been for the Dems. We all just need to get out there and VOTE. When they push us, we push back.

[redqueen]

370. Thank you.

I think a lot of progressives got the idea that we were working on our machine during the clinton era. Anyone who wants this party to be progressive and not triangulating repub lites... well... that wasn't exactly an encouraging time to be a progressive dem, i'll just leave it at that.

And now it's being pounded into our heads by the whore media that we're about to elect another clinton.

So... panic.

[Pyrzqxgl]

466. When I was in college in the mid 60's I remember a political science prof. who

announced to his class after Johnson beat Goldwater that this country would never elect another Republican President or
Congress, because we had an enlightened Democratic Party organization that never gives up. Well a lot of water has passed
over & under the bridge since that time and that "enlightened Democratic Party organization" has grown & shrunk a number
of times and given up (along with going in ten different directions) a number of times. It seems to me a little patience
& fortitude is called for here. Elect a few more Democrats and gripe about it when they screw up. Its what we do best.

[Poll_Blind]

79. Did he put you up to this?

?

PB

[Mrs. Overall]

81. Something about this request reminds me of the British people demanding that the Queen say something

about Diana after her death.

I guess this is what befalls leaders--a responsibility to comfort the masses.

I would ask, should Skinner be put in this position? I would love to hear his thoughts, but not if we hold him down and extract those thoughts as if he were at Gitmo.

[slackmaster]

82. Taser him, Skinner!

[pattmarty]

83. I know it sucks, but we have to keep the pressure on the Dems

[Mike Nelson]

89. Yeah...

Why are elected Democrats so timid?
Don't be afraid of Bush and Cheney.

[Kajsa]

92. Kick and Recommended, Redstone.

Thank you for speaking up.

I'm one of those very frustrated Democrats.

It's hard to understand how anyone who believes
in democracy can be opposed to habeas corpus and
freedom of the press.

I don't recognize my country, anymore.

;(

:kick:

[Blashyrkh]

94. Are you starting to see the game now?

[Locrian]

95. thank you

I believe the veil is lifting - we are slowly seeing what has been happening for a long time. Namely that the corporations OWN the United States government. True - there are some differences between parties, however they both serve one ma$ter.

[blondeatlast]

98. Carry on as you see fit, IMHO, Skinner. It's your site and

Lord knows we've seen worse than this.

If people are so frustrated that they can't tolerate any dissent whatsoever, let 'em deal with it.

Thanks for such an incredibly well-managed website. Call me a troll, a brownnoser, what-have-you, I don't care. I love this place and I have the sense to step away when it gets too intense.

[flowomo]

99. Who's Skinner?

(just kidding)

[Zandor]

101. Get a Grip, Redstone

People are freaking over a resolution on a newspaper ad.

[Redstone]

106. Get a grip, Zandor. The US Senate can't be bothered to fix ONE PROBLEM

we have in this country, but it has time to censure a newspaper ad.

Maybe I do need to get a grip; I thought we sent those people to Washington to do something about the problems we have in this country.

Redstone

[Zandor]

113. We did, and they have

as best they can with a slim majority and Bush in the Oval Office.

Let's face it, today's furor is about the MoveOn ad nonsense.

[renie408]

118. And you expect Skinner to fix that? n/t

[Zandor]

121. He wants Skinner to allow the place to turn on Democrats

in favor of...well, in favor of what exactly?

[KAZ]

182. He shoots, he scores! n/t

[Redstone]

128. Haven't been reading what I've had to say, have you?

Redstone

[Kajsa]

348. No Redstone, he hasn't.

It's much easier to attack what he thinks you said,
instead of commenting on what you actually did say.

[robinlynne]

187. NO, we are freaking because we worked so hard for the past 7 years to get these people into office,

and they are not representing us. My god, everyone I know held bake sales,went door to door, we did daycare so people could vote on election day for kerry. We drove to swing states, sold our things to each other to send dollars to kerry, and he didn't bother to count the fucking votes.

[shaniqua6392]

104. We all wanted a revolution after the 2006 election.

Instead we got a bunch of cowards who are busy protecting their political asses while our troops die and our Constitution gets trampled. We are terribly dissappointed.

[bobbolink]

189. We're supposed to eat our disappointment, and keep sending money.

Our cowards are better than their cowards, donchaknow....

[bdamomma]

369. I won't send money until they do what they were elected to do

and to listen to their constituents.

[patrioticintellect]

451. Amen to that.

[bobbolink]

464. Exactly. Quit furnishing alcohol to the alcoholic.....

It's like a desperate wife of an alcoholic, trying to prop up the old drunkard, but.... he has to fall hard enough to come to his senses.

[BlooInBloo]

109. Yah, we're frustrated from the poor perforrmance of our congresscritters...

... and that frustration is amplified by primary season.

Part of the frustration is our fault - for overestimating what was possible with a slim Congressional majority. And part of it is the congresscritters' faults.

But this too, shall pass.


EDIT: In any case, I'm not sure what *Skinner's* involvement would accomplish. He's not Moses, come to part the Red Seas of our own acrimony, leading us wayward wandering Israelites to the promised land of comity and thoughtfulness.

[catlbob]

117. The Democrats abandon the forum

Time-after-time the Bush machine starts one of its PR campaigns, and the Democrats fold and turn tails. It was bad enough to give the Usurper in Chief another blank check for the war, but worse, they retreated and let him hagiofy Petreaus, so it would be extended.

They just don't want to end the war. The bucks they get from the defense industry are just too attractive.

[bobbolink]

120. Very well written! You're highlighting a problem that's been the elephant in the living room for

YEARS!

I remember right after '04, when a DUer tried to get a rational discussion going about the divide between liberal/progressive and DINO Dems. He got smartmouthed and dissed until he left.

Now, here is that divide, staring at us, and threatening to not just damage the party, but have serious consequences for the nation.

Given that Skinner is one of the more conservative ones, I also believe he would do well to engage in this discussion. NOT as a traffic light, but as a thinking, feeling and responding member.

Houston, We Have A Problem!

Well done, Redstone! You're right on target.

Unfortunately, I don't think this discussion will actually go far, just like the previous ones haven't. More's the pity for our country.

[BeatleBoot]

122. 7 months! Something like 228 Days....

Hello?

Anyone out there?

Democrats just took over Congress at the end of January of this year.

I appreciate the frustration, but get real.

[bobbolink]

126. Looking down your nose at me is going to help.....HOW?

Goddamn it, why can't people like you engage in a rational, polite discussion?

You're no better than I am, and I WON"T suffer your putdowns.

It wasn't even you I was responding to, so it's none of your business what I think.

Talk politely to me, or go pound on someone else.

I know, go talk to Skinner that way. Yeah, I'm sure you'll dump on HIM.... eh? So, don't say things to others you wouldn't say to Skinner.

[bleever]

123. I don't think it's Skinner's job to answer that question.

It is all of ours.

We can do it.

[Whisp]

127. that was good, Red. thank you.

I am careful how I use my recommends and your post got one.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

130. fascinating nt

[Whisp]

139. the less I use, the more they mean to me. yes, fascinating.

I'd suggest that for everyone to make the recommend feature actually mean something, but I don't want to be a nanny.

[Andromeda]

129. Do you want Skinner to denounce the Democratic party?

I've been disappointed in the Democratically controlled Congress also but I'm a realist and I don't believe things can be accomplished without obstacles and setbacks.

Expectations were high and enthusiasm for the new majority party in the House and Senate raised hopes for positive change and made the end to the Iraq war seem more of a reality.

The reality is, however, that Democrats can't put themselves in the position of being accused of not supporting the troups--because that's the way they'll (the Republicans) spin it.

We don't have the votes in the Senate to pass a resolution for a deadline to deploy troops. It doesn't matter that we have the votes in the house---we need the support of some Republicans in the Senate to override Bush's veto and we don't have it.

What you and others expect is for Democrats to stop a freight-train going full speed. It just isn't going to happen until some Republicans get back their spines and vote their consciences. We do need the cooperation from Republicans because we have such a narrow majority in the Senate. I think they'll come around after the primaries though, but until then nothing much will change.

And health care---no changes will be made until we have a new (Democratic) administration. We all know that. Republicans are going to fight us tooth and nail on this issue so expect a fight.

MoveOn.org stands on its own merits and doesn't need the support of the Democratic party to be effective. It would be political suicide for the Democrats to publicly endorse MoveOn since it isn't run by the Democrats but is representative of a political point of view supported by grassroots moderate and left-of-center voters.

Just as the Republicans distanced themselves from the Swift-boat charade---even though privately they were cheering them on---Democratic have to do the same thing.
It's not uncommon for candidates to distance themselves from organizations like MoveOn. Privately, they are cheering but publicly they show no preference.

MoveOn is an independent organization that stands on its own merits.

[Redstone]

140. Did I say I wanted Skinner to denounce anyone? No, I did NOT. What I asked was

that he give us his thoughts on the situation, in order to maybe save DU from itself.

Yes, I know it's just a website. But it's a website I like, and I'd hate to see it rip itself apart.

It's the ripping-apart part that I thought he might be able to help with, for Christ's sake; I did not ask him to solve any of the word's larger problems.

Christ, now I'm even getting to be dispirited. There have been an awful lot of people who have been trying to cram words into my mouth in this thread, words that I never said.

I'm just trying to help DU here, OK? Is that SO hard for you to understand?

Redstone

[Plucketeer]

414. If anyone gets dispirited here....

.... they might as well vote straight GOP next time - or not even bother to vote at all. Those are the alternatives - period. "Frustration" wouldn't even BEGIN to sum up what would follow.
Life is chock FULL of frustrations... and yet the average life expectancy keeps creeping up. Could it be that the frustrations aren't winning? It's up to us to see that key player "Apathy" doesn't get to enter Frustration's starting lineup. I'm keeping apathy locked up since I want to extend my advanced age and see how this all plays out!

When I was in high school (yes - I made it that far!), a good friend of mine was valedictorian of our Senior class. Talking with him, felt like talking to an adult. He had his act together in every visible way. His galfriend was valedictorian of the class prior to ours - and they'd been sweethearts for as long as anyone could recall.
Rebellious twit that I was, I dropped out during my last year to join the service and offer myself as fodder near Da Nang. My buddy (we made an "odd couple", right? and if you wonder, the thing that bound us as friends was our common interest in music. we both played in a jazz band together) went to some Ivy League standard and ended up exploring the world of artificial intelligence (no, not members of congress!) before most anyone had ever heard of the realm.
I ended up marrying for all the wrong reasons and suffered for years because of my lack of judgement. Imagine my surprize when I reconnected with my old friend to find out that his "made-in-heaven" marriage of intellect had flopped even before mine did!
What's my point here? It's that however much of a pedestal we elevate our elected reps to, their not the gods we had hoped. They NEED constant reminding as to HOW they got there and WHAT those who put them there expect of them.
I'd have bet the farm on my school friend's successes in life as we went our seperate ways. Kinda like the confidence we harbor when we send someone to DC to transmit our will to congress. But we can not trust that our reps are gonna do JUST as we would do if we were in their shoes.
I've never been to DC (I HAVE flown over the capitol while looking down from the president's seat in what was once the official presidential aircraft - for Truman), but I'll bet I'd be overwhelmed to do so as a congressional rep.. There's gotta be outright and subliminal influences on all sides of you that only being immersed therein can reveal.
To balance that euphoria, we here in Littletown, USA - we have paper and stamps, cellphones and this convenient medium I'm posting to to STEER our guy/gal in DC and remind them of our watchful ways. Absolute power corrupts - look at the last 12 years! But also bear in mind that as we seek that very power, the chance for it to go wrong is JUST WAITING for the chance to take the reigns once again. And ol' Corruption doesn't care WHO "Absolute Power" is made up of - it's siren song simply waits to enchant.

As to asking Skinner for guidance.... think of what you're saying. Aren't we fighting against a regime that claims to listen to some "guiding voice"??? Is that what we want to trust to? I'm grateful for a place to post my blather. But for it to be of any worth, I don't want someone to steer it for me. Moderate it - to eliminate the trolls, yes. Steer it out of whatever ditch we might veer towards, no.
WE'RE at the helm here. It's up to US to take a sniff of smelling salts and get back on track. There's no divine essence, there's no Wizard of Oz to write and direct the show. It's just us.

O8)

[jpgray]

132. Skinner should be careful in expressing an opinion on this

I don't want criticism of Democrats to be discouraged on this site, even criticism that goes to the point of abandoning the party. I want to be able to talk with those people and hash out our differences, I don't want them to leave the site.

[lateo]

134. So let's start the countdown.

Feeling betrayed? Blame it on corporate money. Any democrat who is part of the corporate feeding trough doesn't give a fuck about you. Don't believe me? Well, you are seeing it right now.

[patrioticintellect]

454. They really don't care

Spend some time on OpenSecrets.org. See whose supporting these candidates. See who is avoiding corporate and special interests. Seriously, the front runners are going to bring more of the same. Vote for those refusing money.

Let Americans build a grassroots effort for the guy(s) who should be president. NOW.

[NotGivingUp]

137. Great post! My sentiments exactly except the parts about Skinner.

[Hamlette]

138. at the expense of calling you all pansy assed cry babies

if the shoe fits. . .

how long did it take to stop the war in Vietnam?

Get equal rights (sort of) for women,

To bring an end (sort of) to Jim Crow?

(hint: it wasn't one election, not one year, in some cases decades)

"the race is not given to the swift, nor to the strong, but unto him that is able to endure unto the end".

Buck up.

[redqueen]

372. How long did it take to get equal rights (sort of) for women?

That says SO much... it took generations.

And we're STILL not finished.

[Blue_Roses]

382. well said!

and by the results of what is going on in Jena, LA, Jim Crow's ghost still lives. Nope, change doesn't happen overnight.

[still_one]

141. You have articulated my feelings quite well. I am no longer a registered Democrat

For over 30 years I was a registered Democrat, but have now registered as decline to state

Yes, I will vote Democratic in 2008 for nothing else than the Supreme Court

But as far as the Iraq war, and all the fallout which encompases that, including the Patriot Act, most Democrats in Congress did not distinguish themseleves in an admirable way

As I see it there are only two choices if the current crop of Democrats are not receptive to the people:

1. Work for alternative candidates within the Democratic party to replace them
2. Work for third party candidates

Either alternative will take time. The question is will there be time to save the Republic?

[txwhitedove]

144. K&R for great points and debate. However, Skinner can't...

be all things to all people, even on DU. He has provided a website for Democrats to cuss and discuss anything they wish. I, for one, will be eternally grateful to Skinner and crew for that alone.

I have my own hope, fired up tonight by the dissipation of our own Congress, and an e-mail from MoveOn.Org. They got my donation and signature for a letter to Congressmen:

"We will not be quiet, we will fight back. We will keep speaking out until Congress forces an exit plan for this awful war."

[bdamomma]

374. I bet Move on.org is glad with all the publicity they have been

getting, all on the part of repigs, Move on.org is making money and continuing with their agenda. I will give them a donation also.

[lost-in-nj]

145. Thank you dear friend

for stating how many of us feel

:hug:

lost

[KoKo]

147. I wish we could hear from our Administrators/Owners...too.

But, I think this post is controversial and they might not want to speak out .....since this is just a Message Board...and not something of a Political Platform.

Just saying... Because this Board hasn't had the leadership that sites like KOS, Firedoglake, and others on the web have had for "the Movement."

It's a great site...and gives alot of ability to dialog, discuss and give info...but the Admins have decided to take a "back seat" awhile back and just let us go at each other...with the help of Mods who have been gracious in mediating the many opposing "currents of thought and divisions" presented here on DU. It really isn't an "Undergound" you know. It's a Discussion Board.

:shrug: It is what it is....

[Bonobo]

179. But I am also frustrated that DU is based on the concept of following Dems no matter what.

100,000 strong we have here and yet no matter what the Dems do, we can't advocate for their defeat or promote candidates from other parties -NO MATTER HOW THEY BETRAY US!

Think about it.

So, that is why I wish the Admins would talk with us a little. How long do we have to remain Dems before our own principles have been abandoned?

[sufrommich]

191. There are other sites where you can

go ."100,000 strong" does not mean the majority has any interest in "advocating for the defeat" of Democratic candidates.

[KoKo]

192. But...there's always the Lieberman, and his ilk.. While most of us are Dems...is Lieberman a Dem?

so...if some folks want to go after Lieberman and folks that are Dem in name only voting majority with Republicans...should folks like that be banned from Democratic sites? :shrug:

[sufrommich]

200. No,Lieberman is not a Dem.

"Folks that are Dem in name only" is a personal opinion ,not a fact.I think that's the whole point of the forum.There are people on here all the time ripping Democrats they are personally unhappy with, how many have been banned because of it?
The rules distinctly state that you cannot come here and advocate for third parties.If that is what the poster wants to do,it can't be done here.

[redqueen]

373. It's a two-party system.

That being the case, the only purpose third parties serve is to either split the vote in critical general elections or to push one of the parties toward a new direction.

I'm sure there are other discussion boards for third-parties... if one is working toward those goals, then they can discuss those goals on one of those boards.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

148. Thisbetrayal began a long time ago; people are just paying more attention now + understand more ....

and the betrayals are more serious in many ways now because the fascists have progressed so far and are so close to takeover.

Truman betrayed us with establishing the CIA --
Who passed FISA laws which are themselves a betrayal of our Constitution -- ??

Clinton undid 60 years of welfare guarantees and Gore told him to do it!!!

FDR saved capitalism for the elites -- by REGULATING it.

Sen. George Mitchell pretty much turned the Congress over to Bob Dole -- !!!

This unique thing called an internet is simply a town square and we're all gathering together now -- intellectually -- to say "enough"!!!

But that message can only be delivered with sufficient force if we all begin to come together in large groups --

One of the things that I don't think was noted in this thread is that there is no place for Democratic resentment to go --

If there were any successful third parties -- and they're blocked by both Democrats & Repugs --
we wouldn't be able to discuss the advantages or disadvantages of linking Dems and a third progressive party because this isn't just politics being bounced around here -- it's specifically DEMOCRATIC politics.

But let me point out -- because of Demcorats, as well -- there is no place for Democrats to go if they are unhappy with what is happening in the Democratic Party.

People here get so excited about the liberalism of Kucinich and the things he' talking about --
I can only guess that they have no idea what it is that the Greens or Nader were suggesting as far as platforms. We are way out of bounds of anything truly progressive in the Democratic party. SADLY!!!

[defendandprotect]

149. It also looks like many Democrats here are trying to block what David Swanson is telling them !!!!

Democrats here can't hide their heads in the sand --

Well, if they're DLC Democrats, yes they can ---

But, most Democrats here should be able to listen and get what David Swanson is telling them ---

[robinlynne]

190. I always thought tthat the way it should work, is that kucinich, for example, would

negotiate with one of the leaders, and in order to obtain the kucinich votes, they would have to adapt their platform more to the left. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure people would be angry and call him a sell-out. but then the principles he embodies would have more representation. sort of an alliance. Other countries do that all the time.

[LWolf]

320. I just said this on a thread the other day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3526321#3528473

Post # 51. Note the reply.

[mike_c]

150. K&R-- well said-- I've been frustrated for a long time....

eom

[connecticut yankee]

161. So have I

I've been frustrated ever since John Kerry gave up without a fight.

I've been frustrated by the spineless Democratic wimps in Congress who time after time cave in.

If I were any younger I'd move to Canada.

[Faygo Kid]

155. We are beaten consistently by a unified GOP minority, and now this vote. . .

It's disheartening. Time after time the Dems are unable to reach 60 votes because only 4 or 5 vulnerable Republicans ever do anything but march in lockstep (goosestep?) to Bush's commands, and no legislation is passed. The Republicans are monolithic. But the first chance more than 20 Dems get to condemn their own supporters, they take it, in hopes that Bush and Rush won't say nasty things about them. Which is of course the vainest of hopes. How can you be anything other than disheartened? I could not believe both my Maryland senators, Cardin and Mikulski, voted for this trash. They have heard from me, but I go to bed tonight with the laughter of George Bush and his right-wing radio talk show orcs ringing in my head. A dark day for the First Amendment and for any hope we may have had of the Dems growing a spine, or the Republicans growing a conscience.

[eridani]

156. In one sense, Congress is NOT controlled by Democrats

It is controlled by the unofficial White Supremacy Party, which currently consists of most Repubs plus a significant minority of Dems. Their supporters favor squatting on the rest of the world militarily (and people poorer and darker than they are in our country) as their primary way of making a living, but building prisons and holding the resulting jobs in corrections is a close second. Like their ancestors who either owned slaves or identified with those who did, actually making things for a living is considered to be strictly second rate. They have as many votes as us New Deal types do, and that, more than specific politicians, is the real problem.

[EV_Ares]

159. Today Really Did Do It For Me - I was frustrated but half-assed

tried to understand they could not get the republicans to break loose & vote to end the war.

However, I cannot in any way understand why any dem had to vote with the republicans against MoveOn.org. They did not have to do that and who worked any harder than MoveOn getting some of them elected. John Tester received over $300,000.00 from MoveOn and he won his election because of them. How could he have the gall to repay them in this way.

I am telling you the dems will get more respect from the American people when they start getting some guts, stand up for what they believe in and win or lose, they will at least have respect of which they have none from me and a lot of others right now.

[Radio_Lady]

163. Thanks, Redstone. What happened to the activist group anyway?

Kicked and recommended.

[Harper_is_Bush]

168. Flame trhead. And absolute tripe to boot. n/T

[mzmolly]

169. "The DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate" not unless you consider Lieberman a Democrat.

I don't personally.

[jberryhill]

205. DING DING DING

I do not consider Lieberman a Democrat.

I do not consider Lieberman to be a human worthy of respect.

[RBInMaine]

178. Kindly stop whining and understand how the system works!!!!!!!

Please quit all this "frustration", take a civics class, and learn how the system works!!!! We have a virtual 50-50 Senate that requires 60, I say again, 60 votes just to get cloture for a binding vote. That's the way it is, like it or not. Again and again our DAMN GOOD Democratic Senate has tried to pass the right bills on the war, and again and again and again the R's have had enough votes to block cloture. So for Christ Sake in Heaven, learn how it works and aim your fire where it should be aimed. Also, there are not enough votes to override Bush vetoes. In the House there is not enough votes to override Bush vetoes. They have tried on some bills. This Democratic Congress led the pressure to get rid of Gonzales. They have PASSED bills on minimum wage and have sent the President MANY bills on the economy, student loans, stem cells, etc. etc. So please stop the moaning do your research and for Christ's Sake understand how the hell the system works. If you want to get more done, we MUST elect a Dem Prez and more Dems to the Congress so that we can have effective working majorities with a President they can work with.

[Desertrose]

188. Bullshit and more bullshit.

Quit spouting party line and realize that THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN....


I don't think it can really be *fixed* at this point (maybe never) until our *chosen representatives* take back control from the corporations & big money interests.

Our "DAMN GOOD DEMOCRATIC SENATE" has been sitting on their fscking hands whole letting bush continue this war and removing our rights. Maybe you need to understand how the system is SUPPOSED to work...

DR

[RBInMaine]

195. Kindly bring your head into reality!

We have a system my friend, for better or worse. I know it, you obviously do not. Idealism sounds great and is. But reality is just that. As imperfect as it is, that's what it is. Our, yes, DAMN GOOD Senate has time and again sent Bush bills placing a time table on the war. They have blocked or vetoed time and again. They could not get cloture on the troop rest time bill even with the help of five or so crossover R's and 56 total votes. It takes 60 votes. It takes a 2/3 supermajority to override vetoes in BOTH houses. That's the way it is. What the hell don't you understand about this. Do you research. Look at the whole picture. We have had legislation with advances on energy, stem cells, student loans, SCHIP for kids, (some passed, some vetoed, some blocked) MUCH more congressional oversight of this admin. than we ever had under the R's, we got rid of Gonzales and are STILL pursuing that scandal even with him gone, ....
For Christ sake, open your eyes and see the positive. I know people want more. I understand that. But we only have so many Dems and we have Bush in executive power. The majority, slim as it was, re-elected him in '04. That's what we have. He is the commander in chief. He controls the troops and can order them where he pleases. THAT, like it or not, IS THE SYSTEM. Want more change? Then quit whining and start sweating to get a Dem prez and more Dems in Congress so we CAN do more!

[G_j]

I wish I had some of

what you've been smoking.
But seriously, you are trying to get people to accept a situation which is simply unacceptable. It is a freakin five alarm emergency!
Making excuses for people who refuse to acknowledge this is why people voted for them doesn't fly. Very clearly, many are not up to the task at hand. There are a few who are, so it not impossible, follow them. Why not follow their courageous examples? The situation calls for uncompromisingly great leaders.
There are no excuses.

[radiclib]

225. It takes ZERO votes to NOT send a funding bill

Of course, that would presume that some Congress members value the lives of the troops more than they value their re-election prospects. How silly of me!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

308. Reid and Pelosi both control what bills get to the floor for a vote. nt

[Peregrine Took]

181. I can't take it anymore. I've been a Democrat for 45 years but I can't under-

stand how we "won" in '04 yet we are still playing the loser card. I really think my voting days are over - what the hell difference does it make? Things have gone too far. After we stood by meekly and let them steal the election in 2000 - that was our last dying gasp.

[WillyT]

186. Sing It RedStone !!! - K & R !!!

Cause I'm right on the cusp!

I'm about done with my support of a political party, ANY political party.

:evilfrown:

[Gamey]

194. Call it Democracy Above Ground

A rose by any other name.

[uppityperson]

196. k&r for BEST post of the long time. Thanks Restone, lots of frustrations.

Thanks Redstone.

[puebloknot]

198. K&R My feelings exactly, about the Dem Leaders; however ...

... I have to wonder if Skinner might be doing his own soul-searching right now. Originally, the intent of this site was to support Democratic candidates, and allegedly still is. But we have to be careful that the honest truth of the matter does not get lost in the rallying cry for party unity.

Exactly what is it we Dems should be loyal to, at this point in time? Many here complain of "Dem bashing." Is it "bashing" to simply do what this OP has done, and call a spade a spade? Our future depends on our taking a hard look at what our party is doing, and decide if it can be saved, or whether it must be transformed in whatever way it takes to get back to the principles that the Democratic Party has traditionally stood for.

I am seeing very little of that ethic in our current leaders. Are we to reward betrayal with mindless following, because we're afraid of change?

"These are the times that try men's souls." We rise to the occasion, or we are lost -- as a party and as a nation.

[bobbolink]

469. Exactly right. Blind support is what we used to ridicule the RW for.

Now it's what's consistently expected of us.

NO.

NO.

NO.

[puebloknot]

489. Nein, Nein, Nein!!!

Time to get our own jackboots and brown shirts!

I jest, of course! (Sort of.)

[Blue_Tires]

199. k+r

[radiclib]

201. YEAH, WHADDAYA SAY, SKINNER???

No pressure, though. :P

[dbt]

202. Our Leader cannot respond just yet. Please be patient!

The aircraft designated DU One has been targeted by terrorists with flamethrowers. For purposes of Site Security, he is being flown among Undisclosed Locations. As soon as the threat level has subsided, he will address us all on National Terrorvision.

[dbt]

204. By the way, I DEMAND that eveyone who has called Skinner out

BE BANNED FORTHWITH FOR BREAKING THE RULES!!!

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Caution]

203. This Democrat is quite happy with the performance to this point.

Sorry, but no I don't feel betrayed. I never thought impeachment made any sense. Defunding the war is a good way to get people killed. Politics is not a win now game. Democrats are playing a long term game. They made extensive gains in the 2006 election and stand poised to make even bigger gains in 2008 and barring a huge surprise should win the Presidency as well. Once they have control over 2 branches of government they can responsibly change all of the poor policies of Bush, they can extricate us in a responsible manner from Iraq, begin to rebuild the trust of the world around us and give us a better chance of retaking the SCOTUS.

Anyone who thinks the Senate can somehow do the things listed above is not just kidding themselves but are also completely ignorant of the way our government works. We do not have 67 votes in the Senate. Not even close. And that is what we would need to override a sure veto on any of the items listed.

If we re-capture the Presidency we need 60 votes to overcome filibuster. We have a real shot at that. But to tackle any of the issues mentioned above would only rally Republicans around their party, would ensure they came out to vote in the 2008 election and would ensure another 4 years of gridlock.

But yeah go ahead. cry and whine about the house and senate. Ignore the ethics reform that just passed, ignore the fact that virtually none of Bush's agenda has been allowed to pass over the last year.

[wisteria]

210. I agree. The complaints come from those who don't seem to understand that

the Democrats don't have the 60 or 67 votes needed in most cases to stop a filibuster and a veto.
I feel the Dem's are working hard to end the war and support us all.

[Captain Hilts]

419. Correctamundo! The governing process is not meant to operate quickly or efficiently...

and the Dems don't have enough override votes.

[sufrommich]

212. I agree

And I also believe most Dems feel the same way. Patience and progress.

[HughMoran]

219. You mean there is a reality beyond DU?

I agree with you - naval gazing without offering a realistic alternative is meaningless and helps empower the other side IMHO.

[Danger Mouse]

206. Who the hell can we depend on anymore?

Who the hell can we put our faith in?
What hope is there left?
What's the point? :cry:

[NuttyFluffers]

207. it's boiling over so that i'm bobbing like a turnip in a pot of vegetable soup!

i'm bobbing around just like this --> :bounce:

and the worst part is nobody squeezed a drop of Beano in yet! we'll all end up with a bad case of gas! :scared: :nuke:

[UpInArms]

209. I agree entirely with your post, Redstone

and I am one of those that has worked so very hard - among the 100,000+ others here at DU.

I am about to just quit voting and say - "You are right - my vote means nothing!"

I have now - as of this very moment ceased from donating another red cent to any political hack that calls themselves "Democratic" - because none of them have lived up to their promises. Claire McCaskill has now joined all the other pieces of shit in Washington D.C.

She will hear my words on the telephone - oh that's right - those people never have to speak to us little nothings - but some minor underling of hers will hear my words of disgust - and I shall do nothing to re-elect her and some real republican can have her seat - because I shall stop voting and encouraging others to vote.

I shall join the ranks of the dis-enfranchised and seek a way to leave this country that I have called home, defended and cared for and about. And I shall tell all of my fellow citizens that there is no difference in parties from here on out.

I spit on them all. They are crap.

[Pyrzqxgl]

470. Poor baby can't have his way so he's going to take his marbles & go home.

[Beausoir]

211. WTF? Skinner runs an internet message board. No more...no less.

Exactly what would you have him say to make you feel better?

[autorank]

215. Redstone, good for you. Here's the answer: It's all the "Money Party" - the Republican and ...

...Democratic wings. Almost every Republican member of Congress belongs, but many Democratic members do.

So what you've got, every real vote, is

Money Party (both wings) - 70% -

Democratic Wing of Democratic Party -30%-

That's why "we" lose almost all the time and why "they" win any time that they want to.

Remember Viet Nam? Democrats had a huge majority, huge, and it want on f o r e v e r!!!
Many more deaths, many more injuries, huge public opposition, people going to the streets,
writing, voting, etc. The war want on . Why?

The Money Party, that's why. Pick your candidate based on that and don't expect the Democratic Party
as a whole to behave the way you want, just the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

[Me.]

228. Say It

DLC, those currently selling themselves as the realists of the dem party, at least according to an article by 'Wouldn't know the truth if it smacked me in the face' Gerstein.

[autorank]

260. Hi

:hi:

It's them and much more..."The Money Party" is everywhere, you don't even need to register.

Like water to fish, like money to politicians, most of 'em

[Vidar]

216. Excellent post, Redstone. You've captured the frustration of many of us.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

217. 11%

Level of Congressional approval.

We've had a long string of stinging defeats, and I've come to accept that Pelosi and Reid are simply not up to the task.

[go west young man]

220. The Democratic party will never get another donation from me.

MoveOn.org however will get lots of money. I gave plenty when Howard Dean when he had a chance at prez and the DNC undermined that hope. How many times can these spineless saps let us down? Everything to them is about politics. MoveOn has done more for us than they have done in the last 12 months. Bill O'Leilly is loving him some Jim Webb right now. Might as well bend over and kiss his ass Mr.Webb. Patriotic bullshit is what you have fallen for. Never mind that Betrayus is a Bush shill and that the decision was made months ago to use him against your ass. Never mind free speech. Fuck stand up for something. Instead we get a political move "hoping" Repubes will cross over and vote to give troops more time at home. And it fails. Where's the hope in that? Welcome to the world of Dems 2007.

[bdamomma]

378. exactly, give money to those agencies who are trying to do something

MoveOn.org, True Democracy, ACLU, they are the ones to give donations too. I think it would drive those senators and reps crazy.

Plus it was mention by Reid I think there are 3 million members of MoveOn.org. Ha!! put that in your pipe and smoke it Senators!!

[Bennyboy]

221. Excellent post.....

I wish I could articulate my thoughts like that.

[FogerRox]

222. SKinner is a 14 yr old kid, with a "Disturbed" tee shirt

[cui bono]

224. While I agree with your frustration, I'm a little insulted that you think skinner

is the "only one who can rally the troops".

I understand it's his board, but I have never noticed him participating in a discussion here. There's a lot to be praised and a lot to be criticised about this said board. This board is what it is on a daily basis because of all the members who post here and contribute.

There's a lot of people who participate and contribute daily to this board who are doing a lot to inform. There's a lot of people who frequent this board who are out there doing the footwork, making the calls, protesting, donating etc...

Skinner may own this site, but he's not my leader. The only thing I know about him is that he owns this site and then there's the tiniest of contact I've had with him about a matter on here and I can say that he's not the one I'm going to look to to get something happening with the Dem party. And he's certainly not the one I'm going to look to to "rally the troops". He may not be the leader type. Who knows? And that's the point, I pretty much don't know anything about him other than he owns this site.

Mods and Skinner... I'm not trying to disrespect, I'm just saying, this board isn't about Skinner being our leader, and since his presence seems rare, save for the occasional announcement, I don't understand why the OP is calling on him to rally the troops.

I would suggest rather than calling someone out to lead you, you take the reins and start some action. Or get with a group that is already in motion. Why put that on Skinner? He's already provided the message board.

[hurricaneric]

226. I can understand the frustration

but I have to agree with the posters who placed the blame for the current situation we're in where it belongs: with the Republicans. When it comes to DU, I for one am becoming sgravated at the number of people who consistently bash Dems for not being able to enact EVERY reform they are demanding in less than a year. After more than five years of TOTAL repub. control how can we as a party expect the reforms to happen overnight? Get your head(s) straight and organize against the real threat: once again, the Republican!!!

[PeaceNikki]

231. Slactivism at its finest.

Why are you looking to the admin of a message board for hope?

Talk to your representatives.

[L0oniX]

232. Shut the FOX up!

It's the MEDIA ...stupid. FOX CBS NBC ABC CNN are our enemy. They are the ones who are selecting who will run for office. They steer us to who ever they want to promote. Who ever looks good and talks good and is in the back pocket of corporations and the media will be elected and there is nothing you can do about it anymore. The game is FOXed! Only the independent news sources reflect the reality of what is happening anywhere, not FOX CBS ABC CBS CNN. Until we demand a free and truthful media Americans will continue to be brain washed and ignorant.

[hurricaneric]

244. FOX ect. are not the "media"

They are cable news casts. I work for the "media" which is so often scapegoated by disaffected Dems for a plethora of reasons and am tired of hearing it. The real problem is all of us, no the Dems in Congress, not the media - Us.

[bdamomma]

384. the media should be our next front to contend with.

we should focus our efforts on them, they have been accomplices in corporate whore dom of * and cheney to give us this fluff, and not the facts. They have been doing a disservice to all of us, we need to focus on them also. They continue to give us fluff and celebrity news, what kind of BS is that? they are continuing to dumb down the masses.

[lpbk2713]

233. I concur. I too am disappointed with the Dem leadership in Congress.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel but I would have thought we would have made more progress since the November victories.

[upi402]

238. 20+ years of seeing THE opposition party sell out

has utterly deflated me.

I guess they win, I'll piss in the wind now

[Wapsie B]

239. Great post Redstone!

I wish someone would explain why in the world it even matters to get Democrats elected if they're not going to stand up and fight for us. All this inaction proves to me that this is just one big con-game with both parties in on it. Roll over on the '00 Selection. Rollover on the '04 Re-selection, and now this. I'm voting 3rd party next year unless things change, and believe me I won't be the only one.

[whistle]

242. I AGREE! K&R

[HCE SuiGeneris]

245. My head nodding in unison,

bobbleheads all in a row...

You want my car? my home? my dishwasher? Take 'em. Give me back my fucking country, and a reason to call this home. Enough of the patronizing, patriarchal bureaucracy!

[BrightKnight]

246. I agree! - Form a circular firing line and lets sort this mess out. - n/t

[losthills]

247. "lifelong independent-registered voter...."

Right there, you lost me.

Why call on an authority figure for help,

when the problem is within yourself?

[enigmatic]

252. I have hope for the Democrats in 2008

DU? Much, much less.

This place has become a rant board, w/ very little actual debate. I almost never read GD anymore for that reason; it's become a parody of itself.

[peacetheonlyway]

253. Vote Everyone of those LYING Coward Democrats out of Office.. WOOPS

woops. we have election fraud for good.

this is a damn good post Redstone.

you rock!

[hurricaneric]

254. stupid is as stupid does

[kster]

257. May I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Heku9oTLysg

[peacetheonlyway]

278. Why don't we hire THIS KENNEDY for 2008

i'd vote for another kennedy in a new york minute!

[Blue Fire]

258. Pelosi and Reid need to see this!

Perhaps they're too engaged with 'business as usual' to recognize their failures? :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

259. It'd be funny if he just shut down DU for like a week.

[Beausoir]

264. Funny indeed!

I triple dog dare Skinner to do it.

Although, this is where I get most of my news, so I would miss it.

[tyedyeto]

262. 6 and 1/2 hours later... none of the admins or mods at this site

have responded to your queries.

What does that tell you?

[LittleClarkie]

263. I'm surprised it's still open, frankly. You want to contact Skinner, you email him

So maybe they thought it was a rhetorical?

[bridgit]

275. that it is a liberal/progressive site...

:thumbsup:

[DS1]

364. nothing at all. they have no obligation to act as cheerleaders

[The_Casual_Observer]

265. When the Dem's start talking about privatizing social security & drilling

for oil in ANWR then I'll start worrying. Right now the chimp got this war/terrorist combo going, and it's HIS game. Nobody in his right mind is going to "de-fund" those soldiers in the field, particularly with the real threat that chaos would reign supreme in the oil capital of the world. This is going to take a long time to untangle, it isn't going to help
putting the republicans back in charge.

It's been years of republicans creating problems on a weekly basis. So far, have the Dems created any new ones? The problems created by the republicans are world class. It's going to years to fix them, and that's assuming that there isn't any obstruction.

[sofa king]

266. The Senate is "controlled" by ONE FUCKING VOTE.

It's 51-49 in the Senate. And that one fucking vote is Joe Lieberman, who is technically an independent and who owes his reelection entirely to the Republican Party. Any ties get to be decided by Dick fucking Cheney, for crying out loud!

The only "control" we Democrats have over the Senate is over the schedule and what legislation is debated when. Nothing gets done in today's Senate without consensus, including the consensus of the most criminal political party in our nation's history. The situation in the Senate now is almost exactly the same situation we had in 2001 and 2002, when we enticed Jeffords to break away from the GOP.

What you people are getting for your efforts is a temporary halt to the utter madness which paralyzed our nation for four years when the Republicans totally controlled Congress and sold our future down the river. We can stop the very worst legislation from coming to a vote.

That's it.

You people need to stop buying the horse shit our conservative-controlled media keeps shoveling. We don't control the Senate, we're just trying to hold the goddamned door shut while the zombies keep clawing at it. Bring the nails and the two-by-fours in 2008, and maybe we'll have a chance to actually get something done.

[Qutzupalotl]

271. Rove and Gonzales both resigned.

I don't think that would have happened without Judiciary Chair Leahy.

[Fiendish Thingy]

272. I suggest that Skinner simply change one letter- from DU to dU...

from Democratic Underground to democratic Underground

thereby changing the focus of this forum from Party to principle.

[happygoluckytoyou]

273. THANKS FOR THE GOOD NEWS

REPUBLICANS UNITE FOR THE ELECTION AND DIVIDE THE SPOILS AFTERWARD
DEMOCRATS DIVIDE FOR THE ELECTION AND HAVE NOTHING TO DIVIDE AFTERWARD.

IT IS ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE THE DEM ON DEM BASHING...
SOON YOU WILL FRACTURE AT WEDGE ISSUES...
THEN A GREEN CANDIDATE WILL COME IN...
SOMEONE WILL BADMOUNT A COUPLE CANDIDATES


GOP GOP GOP.... CAN YOU HEAR THEM GOPING AT THE BIT

[bridgit]

274. REDSTONE!! Why do you not understand the 60 vote shit & filibuster concept...

that permeates this process over which you are so dismayed? Criminy dude, welcome to Amerika; this has far less to do with dems not being able to 'push stuff' to completion as it does the fallacy of America herself...it;s not the 'democratic party' that has failed, it is America :cry:

:patriot:

[Mark D.]

276. Not ALL Democrats

We've one who expressed our values. Who fought for what
we 'elected' the Democrats into power to do before that'd
even happened. Who's never changed one of his views &
has been true to the cause for his whole career. But it's
remarkable that Dennis Kucinich will get overlooked...

I'd shook hands with him after a 2004 speech, which only
further cemented he was the right man for the job, and I
asked why Nader wasn't supporting him instead of doing
another run in vain for his ego. He gets overlooked in
too many cases by his own party, who he fights for.

It's perception. And I agree. Hillary gains a lot of
momentum on her way to be nominated & males
get a last min. chill in the booth (as if expected
electronic voter fraud or a well times staged kind
of terror event, new war with Iran or Osama video
shot in a CIA made 'cave' won't be enough) & pull
a lever for Gulliani/Thompson instead of a lady.

Her plan for health care doesn't curb one thing that is
wrong with it that causes prices to soar...as they are.
She offers a subsidy for those in poverty, if you work
hard to get out of poverty, when premiums are fucking
$1k per month for cheap plans, good luck staying out
of poverty. No real answers there, just payback for
lobbyist contributions. You know, I trusted in the
hope she'd do better than that. She let me down.

[AlCzervik]

279. Right now i hate everything politics, tomorrow it's going to be better.

no matter what happens i will remain a cynical optimist. This has been one of the most frustrating weeks of my life in terms of the democratic process and i know many posters here feel the same way but hopefully we'll rally from within and get through this terrible period.

[Yukari Yakumo]

280. Are you stupid or somethin' son?

Let's start with the Senate. Right now the Senate is 50-50, UnHoly Joe is a Rethug in Independent's clothing. Do you seriously expect anything to get done? Forget about filibusters, you'd need 67 votes to override Chimpy's veto, and we're not even close to that. Furthermore, the Dems do not walk lockstep to the party line. Each state has two Senators each, and there are way more red-leaning rural states that blue-leaning urban states. That's also why the Dems will never successfully pull a filibuster of their own off.

Next to the motion itself. Did you even bother to read it before making up your mind. Some how, I doubt that, because it has "Repug Trap" written all over it. Voting against it makes you easy prey for the "against our soldiers" meme courtesy from the Rethugs. And what does it do? Give Patreus a pat on the back and nothing more. Big effin' deal.

If you want to go back to the way things were two years ago, be my guest. If you want real change, you better make damn sure more Rethugs meet an early retirement in '08 and a Dem, regardless of who it is, in the oval office in '09. If you don't want to support both of these, leave. You are not welcome here.

If Skinner should do something, I would hope it would be something like him telling dividers like you, "good bye." We do not need division and people sniping at one another within the party.

[Bluebear]

287. 'I would hope it would be something like him telling dividers like you, "good bye."'

What nerve.

[Puglover]

359. Consider the source Bluebear. n/t

[ima_sinnic]

423. yes, the one who called Cindy Sheehan "attention whore" and

kept a huge mocking image of her in his sig line for a while.

WHO's the "divider"? a real true-blue "Democrat," that!

btw, hi Bluejazz! :hi:

[Usrename]

294. Most of the folks here don't support the Bush agenda.

You seem to be perfectly satified with those elected officials that are lining up to support Bush.

Maybe you should consider saying "good bye."

[happygoluckytoyou]

376. YOU GOT THE SORTA BAD AND THE REALLY BAD.... USE YOUR ENERGY WHERE IT IS NEEDED

I hate them...... the "kinda" "sorta" democrats .... but I appreciate that they vote THEIR minds even when it is not the same as mine.

I hate them MORE...... the cheap-labor, invade a country, chickenhawk, assholes of evil... GOP


WHY WOULD I WASTE A MINUTE CLEANING UP AND POLISHING MY DEMOCRATS WHILE THERE IS A WORLD OF REPUBLICANS TO GO AFTER

why spend money ousting Lieberman, who at least votes "on occasion" with the Democrats (check his record--- as a Republican, he would make a reasonable Democrat).......WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY FULL BLOODED CORPORATE JERKS FROM THE GOP TO GO AFTER


this reminds me so much of the "anti-abortion" poster wavers who are trying to save "just one life" between their kids soccer games...
IF THEY TRULY HAD ANY CONVICTION ABOUT SAVING LIVES THEY WOULD BE IN THE BARRIO HELPING EDUCATE AND FEED THE DOZENS OF CHILDREN WHO COULD REALLY HAVE THEIR LIVES BETTERED... AND NOBODY WOULD PROTEST (sorry for the rant, but you have to go after the 80%)

get us a 60 VOTE congress in 2008...

QUIT THE CANNIBALISM.... GO EAT A REPUBLICAN !!!!!

[Blue_Roses]

385. thank-you!

and well said! :thumbsup:

[Laurier]

281. Yeah, the "problem" is whining and asking for Skinner to appear as a messiah to tell you what to do.

The "problem" is failing to deal with your own "frustration" and whining on a message board for someone else to come and fix it for you.

The "problem" is expecting, nigh demanding, that someone else comes along to soothe your personal angst.

Rome wasn't built in a day, whining never solved anything, and Skinner is not a messiah to be invoked whenever you get frustrated.

Jesus, man up already.

We will win the 2008 election, and you might think about focusing your energies in that direction.

[aquart]

282. Yes, I want an "independent" to tell committed Democrats what to do.

But thank you for your concern.

[PDenton]

285. Democrats eat their own

What a sad day.

Even the MEDIA TALKING HEADS are talking about what a snow-job Petraeus is.

[populistdriven]

288. I am a member of MOVE ON. ORG and I have been condemned by the Senator I voted for

[populistdriven]

398. Skinner is NOT ZZ Top lead singer and guitarist Billy Gibbons . . ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6952637&mesg_id=6952637

[BobTheSubgenius]

290. What would you say to the Leg, if you could?

Bush's poll numbers may be in the toilet but those of the Leg. branch are halfway to the treatment plant. It seems obvious to me (and I like to think of myself as having a firm grasp of the obvious) that those at least PERCEIVED to be actually Doing Something about the horrendous and surreal situation America finds itself in are those that are those that are going to survive voter wrath.

(Clearly, REALLY doing something would be infinitely better, but working to a goal and being seen doing that work is a great start. In any case, it's more than you're giving us now.)

I cannot believe that pandering to the GOP base (Remember when that was arguably mainstream? It's now approaching Lunatic Fringe - try to keep that in mind) is going to play even a quarter of the way it did a few years ago. Since the only thing likely to make a pol more unpopular than supporting the occupation of Iraq would be strangling puppies in the Rose Garden (sorry, Karl....that perk is history), it makes me crazy that taking any kind of stand makes all of DC go weak in the knees.

My point, if I have one....

Get out in front of the damned issues people care about!!!

Think voters aren't concerned about the economy? Social Security? Health care? They are. More than you think. Maybe even more than they care about OJ's latest, if they stopped and thought about it.

But Number One? End the war. Do I need to repeat that? I don't think so. It has the added advantage of being the right thing to do.

I don't think it's too late to stand up and be counted, but the clock IS ticking. It is far from inconceivable that disaffected Rep's and the habitually undecided "center" could swing back, if they see no clear choice and the muddied, (too-close-to-tell-them-apart) "alternative" as ineffective. Many people like choice. Give them one.

Above all, stoke that wrath - if you're on the right side of it.

Be sure you are.

[deacon]

291. Many of our Dem leaders need to be Ted Lamonted, replaced with

stronger Dems.

[ima_sinnic]

304. Jim Webb was supposed to be one of those "replacements"

--gee, THAT worked out really well :sarcasm:

that stinking piece of SHIT, the DUMBASS LYING PIECE OF SCUM, has so far voted at least twice against We The People, on FISA and now on this MoveOn thing.

I WANT THE MONEY BACK THAT I REALLY NEEDED AT THE TIME. I HAVE BEEN LIED TO AND FLEECED BY A STINKING BULLSHIT CON ARTIST.

[ingac70]

292. They don't have enough votes to effect the change you want....

do you not realize this?

[snot]

293. Not to mention

election reform, media reform, defense of our Constitutional rights, not to mention fundamental human rights, etc. etc.

[sce56]

295. You have to step back and look at it from a distance and you will see that it is ONE PARTY

THE CORPORATE PARTY with sub party A the Democratic and B the Republics!


Maybe now you will see that some of those things we have been saying are true the Democratic leadership has not been leading they have been letting the Republicans run the show despite being in the minority.

Why did they give in on the timetable they should have ran with the timetable and when Shrub vetoes it say oh well and send him back the same bill or less he can veto all he likes but he will not be able to pass a bill WE DON'T GIVE HIM! Just defund the war by not funding it. But our Democratic leadership Nancy have taken impeachment off the table when 70% of the country believe it is time to do it! Then Reid & Nancy act like they no best and ignore their base by


I will not give one more red cent to the democratic party per se! Move on just got a generous donation from me. I will still support Boxer but not Fienstien.

Why did they do it? Even the KO must shake his head and wonder why.

[Apollo11]

298. How about we channel our anger into something positive?

Off the top of my head:

www.algore.com

www.americaforgore.org

www.johnedwards.com

Keep Hope Alive! B-)

:kick:

[krj44]

301. THE DEMS IN THE SENATE

ONLY NEED 41 VOTES TO PREVENT ANYTHING FROM HAPPENING.41 VOTES TO BRING THE TROOPS HOME.OH YES,SOME BALLS.

[hfojvt]

302. Why we should have hope. Doesn't THIS cover it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=4484208


I see so much exxageration here. Democrats have done NOTHING. Minimum wage increase? Doesn't matter, or doesn't count, I guess. Rumsfeld's resignation? Empty. Gonzales' resignation? Empty. Rove's resignation? Meaningless. Increased funding for veterans, and a number of other programs? Who cares.

Why do so many here want to minimize their accomplishments and magnify their 'betrayals'? It is like we are committed to an 'all or nothing' mentality. Every vote that goes against us is HUGH. Every vote that goes with us is tiny. Isn't that what the M$M does - magnify the flaws of the Democrats? Do we need to do it too? It's like we prefer to complain.

We are almost eager for the economy to collapse - it is predicted at least once a week on DU. Every drop in the value of the dollar or ten point drop in the stock market means 'another Great Depression'. War with Iran is imminent!! Has been for over a year now. And Amerika is a total fascist and genocidal state - has been since 1607. Apparently life totally sucks and it is only gonna get worse.

[cboy4]

306. I went though the effing roof when I saw that moveon vote.

Don't they have anything better to do than vote on the first amendment?

Shame on my senator Feinstein. Thank goodness Barbara Boxer is around to take up the slack of your worthless ass Diane.

[Snazzy]

307. "as a lifelong Independent-registered voter"

Pick a side

[deutsey]

314. That's hard to do when there seems to be only gradations of one "side" n/t

[PuraVidaDreamin]

312. The dem's actions lately have me going into survivalist mode

And I get the feeling I've gone into this mode
far too late.

[DeSwiss]

313. Thank you Redstone, you've expressed my thoughts exactly....

I've already decided that I will not be voting for any Democratic incumbents in the coming elections - assuming I vote at all. These Democrats have no courage, and no sense of patriotism for our country and our Constitution. They have no principles, save getting themselves reelected. And Nancy Pelosi whom I championed and was so proud when she became the first women Speaker, is leaving a legacy of a do-nothing.

There is little doubt that the utter stupidity of the Republicans will bode well for the Democrats next fall. But the precedent the Democrats have allowed to be set with respect to the Executive Branch, and their failure to protect our Constitutional guarantees and our institutions, shows that they are unworthy to hold office.

I'm now coming to a point where I just don't give a damn anymore. If nothings changed by the time of next year's elections I may tear up my voter registration card on election day and become apolitical -- and just say to hell with them and all of it. That is the level of my frustration...

- K&R

[saracat]

448. This is without a doubt the stupidest post ever on DU!

[DeSwiss]

493. And its comments such as this...

...that confirms what I've said. You sound almost like O'Reilly or Coulter.

[saracat]

495. Comments like this post make it clear there is little difference

between the far right and the far left.Both are united in defeating the Democratic Party!

[IdaBriggs]

315. Huzzah!!! Well Said! Redstone for Congress!!! nt

[HamdenRice]

316. I agree with the sentiment, but Skinner isn't Markos Moulitsas Zúniga

I also am frustrated with the Democrats and I think your analysis is spot on.

But Skinner is not Markos. That's one thing I like about DU. He has not tried to leverage the popularity of a web forum into some kind of political platform, as 'Kos has tried to do with DailyKos with decidedly mixed results.

This really is addressed to DU membership: The question is what should we do, not what should Skinner tell us to do.

[Gman]

318. I suggest you learn how Congress works

and leave Skinner out of it.

[LWolf]

319. There are various positions on this issue,

and Skinner's will be just one more.

There are those whose sole purpose is to promote the party, regardless of what the party does or doesn't do, does or doesn't stand for, or who the party does or doesn't represent. Kind of like supporting a sports team; all emotion, no logic when you are rooting for your team to win. Or like a corporation who wants to see the company logo everywhere and increase sales, regardless of the quality of the product underneath that logo.

I think you'll find a large number of DUers who believe that the whole purpose of DU is to do all of the above.

There are those whose involvement in politics is driven by issues, not party, regardless of their registration status. Those are the people who are ready to slam the door and walk away in disgust.

There are those who fall somewhere between the two, and it seems like everyone is finding their spot and staking out their positions.

I think what you are asking Skinner to do is to declare this site's position on that continuum. Is it really here for progressive issues, for democratic principles, as well as the Democratic Party, as the "who we are" states? Or does it belong in the "party first" group, or, like many members, somewhere in between?

I'm sure site owners, and many members, would like it to be both. When the party is in opposition, through action or inaction, to progressive issues and democratic principles, though, both is not a realistic option.
Should the DU tent be narrowed by declaring a position, or should it remain, at least on the surface, more open?

[CGrantt57]

321. Looks like lots of folks have bought the B.S.

That is, the bullshit from the MSM.

You think this is all the fault of the democrats you elected?

Got a little buyer's remorse, do you?

Do a little research before jerking that knee, please.

Since the Dems have taken over congress, the republicans have become the single most obstructionist body in the history of the legislature.

They have fillibustered more bills than any previous congress on record.

Lieberman continually uses his threat to "jump ship" to get what he wants for his republican ass-buddies.

Every time you piss and moan about "do-nothing dems," Karl Rove just smiles. 'Cause that was his strategy all along.

So nice of you to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Regards,

[OzarkDem]

325. It takes zero votes to block bad bills

from getting voted on in Congress.

Pelosi and Reid have much more power than you give them credit for having. They're choosing not to exercise that power or even develop a coherent strategy.

[Scooter24]

327. And all it takes is a group of 40 Republican's

to prevent any Democratic bill from getting to the floor for a vote.

No amount of power invested in Reid or Pelosi can change that.

[0007]

322. You're right on Redstone. I can't even begin to tell anyone of my

frustrations over the current events and how the Repukes are making a joke of us.

All I ever hear from Reid & Pelosi is talk and no action. Remember how the repukes had everyone saying, 'all we want is a straight up and down vote' and how chicken shit we were for using the filibusters, remember? Remember how they said they were gonna nuke the filibusters and it scared the shit out of Harry?

Twenty One Democratic Senators condemned us and that has pushed all my buttons. Keith Olbermann is the my only saving grace.

[Tab]

323. Some of that isn't appropriate

Healthcare, and economics are longer-term things, and I'm reluctant to criticize on those issues.

What REALLY PISSES ME OFF, though, is the ABSOLUTE FAILURE to frickin' invoke ANY KIND of IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS.

For chrissake, what was impeachment designed for??? EXACTLY this kind of stuff. Not blow jobs. Not lying about your personal life. Members in the House of Represnetatives can invoke impeachment hearings. Individual STATES can start them. Nancy, as Speaker of the HOUSE, should be LEADING this charge. This is what the damn thing was designed for.

I don't give a crap about healthcare (I do, but not in relation to this other stuff). If I have to pick and choose what they should be working on, it's IMPEACHMENT. This is a shitload of criminals in the administration, and unfortunately, the Democrats seem to be just as willing to run out the clock as they are. No one wants to confront the issues and it FRICKIN' PISSES ME Off.

Uphold the frickin' Constitution and defend against ALL enemies both foreign AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

AND DOMESTIC.

If something's not clear about this process, email me, and I will be happy to clarify. You took a frickin' oath, now do your goddamned job!!!!

[Orsino]

326. Rah.

I'd add insurance companies and lenders to the list of domestic enemies, but yeah, poor leadership demands impeachment. The * regime has been bad for America on every level, by every measurement not focused on CEOs.

Defund. Filibuster. Impeach. These are all duties.

[LiberalEsto]

328. Amen, Redstone!

You have voiced the frustration I too feel.

I now delete or rip up every fundraising request from the Democrats, with the SOLE exception of DU.

I will not give another penny to them -- not unless the Democrats in Congress start doing what they were sent there to do: end the war, uphold the Constitution and rein in the out-of-control Bush Misadministration, through impeachment if necessary.

I have never felt so bitterly betrayed by my own political party leadership.

I fear we are on the brink of war with Iran. I fear our military has been severely damaged by Iraq. I fear our economy is teetering on the brink of collapse. I fear we are rapidly approaching becoming a police state.

And I cannot figure out for the life of me WHY the Democrats in Congress are acting so meek and timid. Are they afraid of something? Blackmail? Death threats? Loss of millions in corporate donations?

I want explanations.
I want the truth to come out.
I want someone in the Democratic party leadership who still has an ounce of guts to come out and explain to me and other disgusted Democrats WHY the majority party in Congress acts like a bunch of sissies.

[Skittles]

330. will Congress censure us next? Jon Stewart?

I work nights and am frequently out of the loop on DU but I thought the first reference I saw on DU to the Senate censuring MoveOn surely had to be a JOKE

[Virginia Dare]

333. Yes, Skinner, Al Gore and Dennis Kucinich please rush in and save us all..

we are praying for our saviors, you could be like the Three Musketeers of old, Keith Olbermann can play Dartagnon.

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life


The drama gets turned up a notch every day it seems.

[Blue_Roses]

377. LOL!

so true! Once again, the voice of reason:D

It's a shame that we only see that in rarity around here. I don't even stay here for long anymore. It's ridiculous.

[terip64]

334. Redstone and everyone else who agrees with him, Frustration has been with us for SEVEN years now,

we are at a turning point, we are tired and we still have a long way to go. I was very pissed and disappointed by the move on vote, but I was more pissed about the bankruptcy vote and so many others. My dad was a long time dem, good friends with Lieberman and in someways I am relieved that he is not here to see what has become of his beloved country. On his death he told me that he would feel better going if there was a dem in the white house. He died right before September 11th and was spared so much. I hate that I don't have his voice to soothe me right now, and soothe me he would because he loved this country so much. He would not lose faith and either will I.


Having said that, think about Leahy for a moment. One of our hardest working senators and yet he voted for the move on bullshit. Why? Because his generation doesn't politicize the military. Period. He won't be a part of it. I see my father in Leahy every time he questions somebody. He doesn't agree with not showing respect to someone who has served our country. It is really very simple to him. Should he not vote his conscience to satisfy us? Is that what we really want? Isn't that what the republicans do to pander to their base especially with the Webb amendment? Doesn't that make us sick?


The silver lining in the move on situation is that I gave $25 and have been going to their site more and I am sure that I am not the only one. Move On has gotten tons of free advertising and has been mentioned in the main stream media more than it ever would. I think this played right into our hands.

The tide is turning. Think of Al Gore in The Inconvenient Truth when he said that things in politics change quickly once people start demanding it. From a NYT article, "The political system, like the environment, is nonlinear," he said. "In 1941 it was impossible for us to build 1,000 airplanes. In 1942 it was easy. As this pattern becomes ever more clear, there will be a rising public demand for action."

There is a rising public demand for so many things right now because Bush screwed up so many things. That demand is because of US. Me and you and everyone here who pays attention and calls our critters and does our part. And we are growing in numbers. Ever since Cheney shot that guy in the face the tide has been turning. Have faith Redstone, it is going to happen and it is going to be sweet! Look at Keith's numbers. It is happening.

As for as the senate and house I believe that they are working their asses off and instead of the press saying that the republicans are blocking everything they say the dems failed and we can't fall for that. WE CAN NOT FALL FOR THAT. Not us, of all people. We have to know the truth and spread the truth. I may not agree with everything our reps do but I can't deny that they are trying. Personally, I don't want to be pandered to, I want our politicians to find a way to represent all of us. We all pay taxes and we all deserve representation. That's the high road and that's the one I am staying on.


:grouphug:

[Name removed]

336. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bdamomma]

390. WE THE PEOPLE have to kick ass(alot of asses, esp. this media)

it all begins with us.

[TreasonousBastard]

337. WE don' t have a problem. SOME have a problem...

because they can't handle having their overblown hopes smashed.

You think electing around 10% of new members to Congress and getting the Speaker's chair back meana we get everything we've wanted since 2000? Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.

"Oh but we're getting nothing we want."

Bullshit. If you're gonna make that claim, you're gonna have to give us a list of all the failed initiatives. And all the passed ones. And stop picking out a silly vote or two to make a silly point. So what if some voted to spank MoveON to avoid another month of arguing.

Congress has rarely, if ever, been able to stand up against a strong President and this White House is the most vicious in my memory, possibly in our history, in getting its way. Whining about jellyfish Democrats is just a childish escape from reality.

[Zensea]

342. I agree

& I am thinking it would be an interesting experiment to place every single poster who manifests this
"And stop picking out a silly vote or two to make a silly point" in this thread on ignore.

[Felix Mala]

338. I thought senate majority leader decides what gets voted on.

Why didn't read stop this move-on vote?

[CaptJasHook]

344. That's only in the House.

Senate rules are different.

[lonestarnot]

341. And 22 of the fuckwads vote on a resolution that speaks directly

against us. WTF is that?

[riona]

343. I'm in migraine territory

Thanks for the post, Redstone. You said it all.

[book_worm]

345. I see no difference between DU now and at around this time in '03

The Dems were attacked then too for allowing the resolution to pass and we had several candidates running for president and several different camps of people all trying to push forward their candidate by attacking the other candidate. The problem with DU (I'm not sure it's a problem actually) is that it's really not Democratic Underground. It probably should be called Progressive Underground because as long as I can remember some of the most vocal people here are not democrats but left leaners who are not necessarily tied to the Democratic party. We have a good share of Greens (people who voted for Nader in '00), socialists, ect. From day one they have attacked the Democrats for not doing enough. This will never change. DU will always be what it is for better or for worse.

[shireen]

346. agree with your points, but why put this burden on Skinner?

It's hard enough to manage DU, and he got a toddler at home. Our good man already has his hands full.

[Politicub]

352. For the record, you don't speak for me

True, I do have my own frustrations, but I'm enough of a realist to understand that political wheels turn slowly. We've come a long way as dems since Bush took office, and I'm not ready to lay down and whine about why things aren't moving faster.

As national body, Dems are the ones speaking out about the war and bringing our troops home. Not all of our elected leadership is doing the same thing, but change takes time. Each and every day, those of us out in the world are changing hearts and minds.

If you haven't noticed, health care is looming large in the presidential election, and I'm not pinning any of my hopes on this president doing anything. In order to get a progressive bill to pass, we must have a democratic president. Period.

And please, spare me the drama - "naught but a handful of ashes?"

[redqueen]

354. Why ask Skinner for encouragement?

Just cause he's the head honcho around here, that doesn't give him any more insight than any other member with an equal amount of experience and involvement in the sewer... sorry, political system.

I don't know if anyone could rally the troops right now, because there are too many kinds of dems... and they're pushing hard to move the party in the direction they want to see it grow. Were you here for the primaries last time around? It's slightly worse... but not really, not IMO. It seems pretty much the same. Just a touch of extra zestiness maybe.

Anyway we're all adults here and after the primaries are done and our sense of outrage over whichever outrage it was that got us all outraged has died down... things will be better.

There's reason to hope (and more importantly, keep working for change) because what other choice do you have? How can anyone who sees the problems we face and knows we can change things do otherwise?

[MissDeeds]

362. Excellent post, Redstone

Wish I had enough posts to recommend. The inaction of the Democrats in the House and Senate is taking a toll on many of us. It's hard to muster any enthusiasm for the next election based on what we have seen come out of our victories in 2006. Even my 82 year old mother laments the current state of the Democratic Party on a daily basis and says she's glad her parents aren't alive to see it. So sad.

To me, it's more than whether we have the votes to effect change. It's about doing the right thing, taking a stand, growing a spine. Yet time and time again, they cower and march in lock-step. What happened to the impassioned speeches and promises that won us over last fall?

[rhiannon55]

366. I think Redstone is simply asking Skinner

to allow more brutally honest discussions about congressional Democrats on DU. Too many posts get deleted as flame bait if the thread starts heating up too much.

[Spiffarino]

415. Heat and sunlight are powerful disinfectants

American politics needs a serious cleaning. The way to do it in the political theater is to expose it to sunlight and apply heated rhetoric until the morons we mistakenly elected come to their senses.

My Rep is a "Blue Dog" which is in the class of Democrats whom Republicans keep on a short leash attached to a shock collar. I try to burn his ass every time I post. Thus far DU has given me every opportunity to vent.

Are you listening HEATH FUCKING SHULER??!

[mistertrickster]

368. Who know that our own party was so full of meshugunah mamzers? nt

[Dora]

381. We don't need Skinner to lead us. We must lead ourselves.

Seriously. Skinner has enough to do. It's not his responsibility to guide us into action. It's not his responsibility to "tell us why we should have hope."

If you need to know why we should have hope, then you've already given up. If you're going to get up, then get up. If you're going to stand up, then stand up. You don't need anybody's permission.

[4dsc]

388. We are indeed to blame!!

We are to blame for the lack an any ACTIVISM that would compel our leaders to act according to our wishes.. We happily sit on our collective fat asses to do NOTHING and EXPECT everyone else to do it so that nothing actually gets done!!

Until we put a MILLION PEOPLE in the streets' of DC and around this great nation protesting, we are all doomed to failure..

[Dora]

391. I disagree. I do not think we are "to blame."

We are passively allowing ourselves to be anesthetized by cultural tools into a stupor of discussion and argument.

Meanwhile, politicians continue to ask us for campaign donations today so that they can fix problems tomorrow.

Nobody's fixing problems today.

[BlooInBloo]

401. That's the problem with America in a nutshell. It's never our own faults....

... Even when THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE makes CLEAR that it's our fault.

:rofl:

[TechBear_Seattle]

404. "Nobody's fixing problems today"

Because those of us who try and hold up courses of action which do not fit Accepted Party Dogma tend to get shouted down. It is rather difficult to make a start at fixing problems when unorthodox ideas lead to screams of "Heresy!" and virtual lynch mobs.

[redqueen]

410. The party needs to be pushed from the outside, too.

It may not always get a nice warm response, but it's necessary I think.

[bdamomma]

393. .......................

:thumbsup:

[LanternWaste]

383. Great post, Red.

Great post, Red. Succinct and to the point and lacking the hysterical dramatics I've been seeing here lately.

(Hey, btw, man-- I hope you're having more good days than bad days lately. You're one of the good guys)

[IronLionZion]

387. We got a fever, and the only cure is more cowbell! eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

396. Bullshit.

The administrator of this forum gave us the queensbury rules, the ring and a set of ropes.

We gotta work it out ourselves. Skinner is not responsible for the conduct of our elected officials, nor our reaction to that conduct.

Do you think you'll have better success bringing Republicans to the progressive world view or the Democrats? My hat has been thrown in with the latter, and there it will stay.

If I were Skinner, I'd have a sock-puppet account with which to debate ideas.

[populistdriven]

400. Skinner is NOT ZZ Top lead singer and guitarist Billy Gibbons

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6952637&mesg_id=6952637

[porphyrian]

402. Yet. - n/t

[BrklynLib at work]

408. I am disappointed that the Dem controlled congress has not been able to effectively lead the US

away from the BushCo/Rove/Cheney programs that were instituted while there was a repuke majority in Congress. The Dems were elected to get us out of the woods, and I believe their current low approval rating is due to the fact that they have seemingly not not made any substantial or honest effort to do so.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

411. Change happens from the PEOPLE - until more people demand change it won't happen.

Our representatives are representing Merkin's perfectly - we only get what we deserve.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

413. Americans and Merkin's are getting the representatives they deserve.

Since the majority of this country either isn't paying attention, is ignorant/naive or just doesn't care - we will continue to be screwed.

Americans are getting reprentatives like Patrick Leahy, Kennedy, Waxman, Kucinich, etc.

Merkins get Inhofe, Lott, Chambliss, Vitter, Frist, etc.

[Sam Ervin jret]

433. I cannot believe you are still going at each other. Energy is a precious resource. Use it wisely.

I checked in last night and read this "thread" and left a short message. I admit I am new to this and the need to vent is not unknown to me. There does seem to be, however, in this "thread" more than a little excess energy being spent in the area of Democratic denunciation and Messianic Message Mania.

It is too easy to be distracted from the real job and the real enemy. This only wastes time and energy better spent elsewhere. Unlike our friends in the House and Senate, we must stay on target.

Support and elect those who most closely reflect your ideology. Speak out for those who cannot and against those who would do wrong against that which we hold dear. Justice is for ALL or it is for NOT.

[rodeodance]

425. We need to send these 28 Senators a big Thank you-they voted to DE-FUND the Iraq war:

Fri Sep-21-07 08:25 AM
Original message
We need to send these 28 Senators a big Thank you-they voted to DE-FUND the Iraq war:



Good attempts like this need encouragement.


http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/r...


U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 110th Congress - 1st Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Amendment (Feingold Amdt. No. 2924 )
Vote Number: 345 Vote Date: September 20, 2007, 02:54 PM
Required For Majority: 3/5 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 2924 to S.Amdt. 2011 to H.R. 1585 (National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008)
Statement of Purpose: To safely redeploy United States troops from Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 28

NAYs 70

Not Voting 2
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State

Grouped By Vote Position
YEAs ---28
Akaka (D-HI)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cardin (D-MD)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)
NAYs ---70
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burr (R-NC)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McCaskill (D-MO)

Not Voting - 2
Biden (D-DE)
Cantwell (D-WA)

[Sufficient Voice]

437. At least the debate is different

Don't you remember the last 13 years? At least now we get to blame congress for not doing the right thing, rather than stand aghast as congress does horrible things. That is a definite improvement. This new congress has a track record of directly doing about 80% less terrible things to the American people and world, then the last few.

Have some hope. They may get a few really good laws passed yet. (And then they will be vetoed.) But have hope.

[Einsteinia]

439. Because they work for the SAME

the same corporate lobbyists.

We need 3 things to get our country back:

1. Clean Money/Campaign reform
2. Election Integrity (see: http://www.verifygra.com )
3. Diversified Media (not controlled by 5 mega-billionaires)

[patrioticintellect]

452. Show me the candidates who will fight for that?

Kucinich...Gravel...a green candidate...Those seem to be the options we have for change.

Wake up Americans. Take control of your country.

Kucinich supporters, get him to embrace some of Gravel's message and ideas. And then get him to stick up for third, fourth, and fifth parties. Let's really make this a campaign for the little guy!

There are more "little guys" than "big guys" in this nation.

[Elidor]

446. It's amazing how many people need a daddy figure to tell them everything will be all right

I pity Mr. Allen, having all this psychodrama focused on him. He's not your daddy, and he can't make it all right.

[civildisoBDence]

455. The MoveOn ad hurt Democrats, not Republicans

Am I the only one here who thinks the general, who after all is willing to risk his life to protect ours, deserves some respect? How did MoveOn manage to condemn his testimony before he testified?

This war is unnecessary, unjustified, and unwinnable--but I don't blame the soldiers (generals included) one bit.

(Fire away, Redstone...)

Newsprism

[The Count]

456. yeah, you are the only one who thinks that contractor bribed, war reason lying yes man

Betrayus deserves respect. Uniform doesn't magically make one respectable. Deeds must do that - respect must be EARNED. A bush stooge is a tool, whatever he wears.The ad was not about this tool, but about the lies (White House issued) which keep this war going. Way to miss the point.Here's a real Democrat's - Pete Stark's take on it (he is in congress, BTW):
"I commend MoveOn for their ad and for speaking truth to power," said Stark. "Up is not down, the earth is not flat, and the surge is not working. General Petreaus betrayed his own reputation by standing with George Bush in opposition to the timely withdrawal of all of our brave men and women from Iraq. I thank MoveOn for their patriotic ad and call on Petreaus to help Bush end a war the President should have never started.""

And MoveOn was instrumental in many electoral victories in 2006, so thanks Senator Cronyn for the visit.

[Mark E. Smith]

459. Who cares?

Do what I did. Distance yourself from this place. Stop by once in a while. Just for laughs.

A lot of people on this site take their bullshit just a little too seriously. Who would want to spend their time with folks like that?

It's just a message board.

[davidwparker]

460. I'll be calling Webb's office Monday. I was catching up Malloy podcasts

and learned he SIGNED onto the amendment that was critical of MoveOn. So did Tester, apparently, after MoveOn contributed to his campaign.

Now, back to Webb. After that vote, and the vote to allow * wiretapping ability over the summer rubs me the wrong way. I voted for him and gave $500+ to the campaign. If he wants my support again, he'd better get with the program.

It's a long way from his "showing * the way" in the state of the union rebuttal to these votes.

[MrMickeysMom]

465. Our so called Dems must have some deep, dark secrets, America

Yeah... That's what I think. The DEMOCRAT party is what we must be dealing with. Isn't what that criminal in the White House calls it?

War, Health Care, Environment They're pleasing the same corporate sponsors as the REPUBLIC party is.

How far the strings must reach from behind each characature on this stage? And why, why, WHY should it a sin to tear up these motherfuckers about in the most harsh and direct way on this discussion thread?

Fuck, if I can figure that one out. I'm just glad someone has brought this to the attention of the gatekeepers here.


:o ... "Define Democrat!"

[StrongBad]

467. I'm not gonna lie

The main reason why I keep checking up on this thread is to see if the Big-S actually posts a response.

[Bassic]

472. I keep checking

If it's been overrun by kudzu yet.

[JuniperLea]

476. Ban the "spoons"...

There are a lot of people here to just love to stir the shit... constantly outraged over everything... constantly posting flamebait... putting people down for having an opinion... name calling... its getting to be a bit much.

What makes you think Skinner isn't paying attention? If I were Skinner, I'd sit back and hope the little kids work shit out on their own. I'm betting this is exactly what he is doing.

I think threads like this only serve to further stir the shit.

It takes two to tango... when you feel the urge to "tango", maybe you should sit this one out instead?


:shrug:

[AZBlue]

478. This is how you thank Skinner??!

He started this website, puts time and effort into it, and you're going to blame him for all the ills in Washington??? Nice way to pay him back! And, what's Skinner got to do with Congress? Last time I heard, he wasn't a member.

[JuniperLea]

479. I'm betting he doesn't like being a babysitter either...

Kids need to learn to play nice, that's all.

[AZBlue]

480. Seriously.

No teacher wants recess duty 24/7.

[Kajsa]

487. Where do you get that Redstone was dissing or ungrateful?

This is what Redstone said,

Skinner, you're the only one who can rally the troops. Based on what I've seen, an awful lot of DUers have gotten discouraged and disheartened by today's disgraceful action by the DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Senate.

DU needs to hear from you. Tell us why we should have hope. We, and other Democratic voters, did all we could do, and sent enough Democrats to Washington to seize a majority of both houses of Congress.

Tell us why all that work and all those votes were NOT in vain.

Because it sure seems like they were.

No one wants a " Daddy" . "Play nice" ? What?!?
Read what he wrote.

Then tell me leadership and direction aren't worth anything.

[RiverStone]

482. Are we locked into "Democratic"?

Good points Redstone!

And I share both your observations and frustrations - yet also realize that if the party we have worked so hard for --- for so long continues to pander to who the fuck knows what and NOT do the work of We The People that elected them --- they will lose us.

I don't think Skinner could have anticipated the party's shift to the right (or center right) and the fact is we are all conversing on DEMOCRATIC underground. If Skinner wants to maintain that we must not use any bandwidth to disparage the Dem party - that is his right to want that. It is our right to longer belong to DU. It's a choice eh?

I have not a clue why so many on The Hill are impotent to do a damn thing to stop the war!? Something does not add up. Though for now, unless Skinner expands the parameters of DU to allow dissing the party itself (which I think would be OK - as long as it comes from a progressive perspective) - then we must play by the rules of the site.

Personally -calling out our Dem leaders to DO SOMETHING helps the party. But if my post is anti-DEM, it will be locked.

I do appreciate greatly having a place like DU, I only suggest the MODS might reconsider how far we can go criticizing our on party - for the GOOD of the party.

peace~

[DawgHouse]

486. This is our most desperate hour.

Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi...errr I mean Skinner; you're my only hope.

[Maribelle]

488. Nine Months. Have any given consideration to what Bush be doing if Democrats were not the majority?

Good chance we would have bombed Iran already.

[Festivito]

492. We have two parties: SELLOUT, and Sellout-lite.

Surprised that some of them SOLD-OUT?

I must notice:
0. democratic-controlled Senate and not the:
1. Democrat-controlled
2. Democrats-controlled
3. Democrats'-controlled
4. Democratically-controlled
5. democracy-controlled
..Senate.

Why the mistake?
Is this whole question, and our thinking, starting with a mistake?

We have sellouts.

BTW:

The MOVEON.org censure:
1. gave moveon more money.
2. gave us a list of questionable Dems.

It's a hard direction, but a direction. And, one of hope.