One of my coworkers seriously does not accept evolution.

[ThomCat]

She thinks that god designed everything exactly as it is and that evolution is something people made up.

This is not in the bible belt. It's in Manhattan, NY. I'm stunned to actually know someone who thinks this way.

Wow. I don't know how any of you who live in the bible belt deal with it. If one person stuns me, what is it like being around large groups of people who think this way?

[soothsayer]

1. Are her knuckles dragging on the floor? She might be right, in her own case.

[ThomCat]

5. She's not a dumb person, just not a strong thinker.

She focuses on what feels right, and that has caused some problems here at work because she makes a lot of mistakes. She doesn't learn and understand proceedures. I guess this is all related. :)

[The2ndWheel]

11. That's pretty funny

Evolution is focused(for lack of a better term, whatever we call evolution has no direction or endpoint of any kind) on what feels right. Oh, look, a yellow streak on the back of that other bird. I like it. I think we'll mate.

Then with creationism, there are procedures. God makes everyone in His own image, etc, etc. There is a plan to it.

[Johonny]

66. She's not a dumb person

She's just designed that way.

[LibertyorDeath]

187. "She's not a dumb person, just not a strong thinker."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[JBoy]

195. Reminds me of Martin Short

"I'm not a strong swimmer".

[Javaman]

210. "not a strong thinker" aka dumb as a bag of rocks. nt

[TornadoTN]

2. Welcome to daily life in Tennessee

It's getting better, but sadly enough, my office is populated with several of these knuckle-dragger's.

[AndyA]

3. You don't work for The View, do you?

They have a couple of ditzy chicks on that show that aren't too sure about basic things, either. Like the Earth being flat, evolution, etc. :eyes:

[ThomCat]

6. No, I work as a corporate management consultant and

I'm on-site at one of the major advertising agencies. This is the place that makes image more important than reality. So I guess it's kind of appropriate to find a true believer here.

[mariema]

49. I just got thru looking at that clip about the co host on the View

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLnCDTWB2S0

I couldn't believe her answers.

I personally don't know anyone who believes as she does and I don't know what my reaction would be if I met someone like that.

[CreekDog]

110. The earth is flat in human scales

[acmavm]

4. One of my bosses once told me that 'man did NOT descend

from monkeys' and he has never seen any proof that dinosaurs ever actually existed. I almost got fired when I asked him how me managed not to hang himself when tying his shoes.

He was a Missouri Synod Baptist whatever ever the hell that is.

[KitchenWitch]

10. You sure that wasn't Missouri Synod Lutheran?

[acmavm]

14. Maybe. Who knows. He was a fuckwit though, that's for sure.

[The Wielding Truth]

12. Wow, has he never been to a museum? And what kind of

proof does he have on God?? Thank you Fox news,Reagan,and the Ostrich Christians who have missed the point of their "savior". They are still lost.

[acmavm]

15. I believe in God. But I also think evolution is more that a theory.

I think that only God can judge people and we were warned about that by Jesus. And I don't think that its things like sex or eating pork products that will send you to Hell.

Whatever.

[The Wielding Truth]

22. Of course .You have a brain and a heart and you use them.

[unpossibles]

116. evolution is more than a theory

Darwin's theory was just a model for how evolution works.

[badgerpup]

169. Had a guy question me about why I 'believed' in evolution...

...seemed genuine question, not smartass rhetoric.
Used the example of how many breeds of dogs we have now. We started out with your basic Wolf...then humans stuck their fingers in the pie.

We encouraged certain breeds to evolve a certain way by selecting for (e.g., allowing...hell, FORCING animals which had these traits to procreate) certain characteristics and selecting against (removing those individuals or not breeding from those lines).

That's how evolution works, gang. The successful (lived long enough to procreate) breed and pass on their genes, the unsuccessful (you were somebody's lunch or just unlucky) don't.
In the purest Darwinian form, that is...:shrug:

[CanonRay]

28. I went to the Chicago Natural History Museum with my (now ex) wife

She looked at the dinosaur skeletons, and said "those aren't real". I turned and looked at her and asked her what she meant, and she said the earth is only 4000 years old and so those skeletons couldn't be real. I'm not making this up.

I was completely shocked. She was Missouri Synod Lutheran, her grandfather had been a missionary, but this crapola had never come up while we were dating or engaged. Needless to say, the marriage did not last a whole lot longer. Live and learn.

True story.

[CreekDog]

111. Missouri Synod is Lutheran actually

http://lcms.org

[and-justice-for-all]

196. We did not descend from Monkeys...

We descend from a common ancestor that is long since extinct. It is no coincidence that Humans and 'Monkeys' share 98% of the same DNA.

Believers in man-made superstitions want to separate themselves from the Animal kingdom or the Natural World. They think they are the product of divine intervention and some how separate from all other life, but the complete opposite of that layman's thinking is actually true.

We are part of the natural world and one result of Evolutionary Natural Selection, not divine intervention.

[Thothmes]

203. shared DNA

Think you mean Chimpanzies. Their DNA is closer to ours than monkeys.

[and-justice-for-all]

214. There are 2 that we share 98% of DNA with..

I can not recall which ones...I guess I could look it up..LOL

[KitchenWitch]

7. My dad, who is college educated, believes in creationism

His degree is in engineering. It is fucking frightening, his abandonment of the scientific method.

[ThomCat]

24. That is scary.

You would think being an engineer would require at least enough intellectual discipline to disregard nonsense like creationism. :(

[KitchenWitch]

27. No kidding

He suspends an awful lot of disbelief - especially since he became fundified only in the past twenty years.

:scared:

[Odin2005]

76. It seems like a lot of fundies go into engineering and medicine because their religious beliefs...

...keep them from becoming scientists.

[Clark2008]

83. You know - you can believe in creationism and still believed

that animals and plants evolved from their original form.

It's really not that hard to do - and both COULD be accurate.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. Um, what "original form"?

People can believe whatever they want- but if they're interested in the FACTS and the TRUTH, well, evolution- evolution over a 4.7 billion year history of the Earth, will all life coming from a common ancestral tree (yes, that means you're related to monkeys and chimps, and more distantly, your cat and dog and turtles and fish and plants and mushrooms) - evolution is a FACT. "Creationism" is some made-up bullshit peddled by religious right types who think teaching kids the FACTS about evolution will cause them to doubt their church and probably screw before marriage.

Some people say, "I believe in evolution but I believe 'God' is behind it". That's not the kind of statement which evolutionary FACT has anything to do with. Evolution is describing the process. If you accept the process but ascribe a supernatural cause behind the process, that's one thing. If you try to change the FACTS as we know them around the process by which life evolved on Earth because it doesn't gel with your interpretation of your religion, that's something else entirely.

So I ask again- what kind of "creationism" are you talking about, and what "original (presumably created) form" do you believe that animals and plants evolved from?

[truedelphi]

191. That is what I was taught as a Catholic

Nuns said that God choose evolution as the means to create the life we see here on Earth

And that the seven days mentioned as being needed for creation of the Universe was a figurative seven days - who knows how long each day was. Obviously some of the "days" had to encompass a Billion years or more.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

219. who knows how long each day was

That's a very good point.. fuzzy (or fossil) math comes to play.

[truedelphi]

221. All I know is each day in Catholic school was a

Very Very long time

[MissB]

85. Back when I was getting my undergrad engineering degree,

there were two guys in our classes that wore those "I ain't descended from no monkey" t-shirts.

They weren't the brightest bulbs in the class either. (Not saying your dad isn't bright, btw).

[KitchenWitch]

129. Thing is, my dad is really smart

but totally throws that away for what his pastor tells him to believe.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. That's why religions try to get kids when they're really young. Like cigarette companies.

Snag 'em early, before critical thinking takes over.

[mwb970]

205. Some people are missing the "Hey, Wait A Minute" gene.

As a result of this deficiency, they eagerly adopt ideas that don't pass the "laugh test" for fully-gened, thinking people.

What do you do with someone who believes obvious lies because they are unable to detect that they are being lied to? Shoot, if I believed the wacked-out things the wingnuts believe (which would require a lobotomy), I would probably reach the same insane, counter-intuitive "conclusions" that they do.

[CreekDog]

113. Yeah, but I feel better about death with a God and creationism

than with just the scientific method.

And the scientific method doesn't claim to test for things outside the natural world.

The God of Christianity is not limited to this world, or this time.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. So, you're not worried about the facts, you're worried about what makes you feel better?

You'll excuse me if I don't think that's a very good way to try to understand the world.

Look- some people say, I believe in evolution, I just believe "God" is behind it. That sort of statement is essentially meaningless, from a scientific standpoint, because it can't be proven or disproven.

But that's not "creationism". Creationism is brought to you by people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old because Teh Bible Sez So, never mind the evidence. And that's the gist of it- never mind the evidence, this is what WE KNOW to be the facts so we're going to push it off as an "alternative" to evolution.

Problem is, there is no "alternative" to the "theory" of evolution any more than there is an "alternative" to the "theory" that the Earth is Round. EVOLUTION IS A FACT. End of story.

If you can reconcile your religious beliefs and concepts of an afterlife with the facts, bully for you. But you don't get to change the facts because they make you uncomfortable.

[CreekDog]

151. I believe in Evolution but it is not "A FACT"

You are so insistent and yet you confuse theories, laws, facts, etc.

And a dirty little secret is that a little denial here and there actually makes people feel better.

I won't tell you your shirt is ugly because it might hurt your feelings. If you think it makes the world better for people to always under any circumstances hear the truth or believe it no matter what, then I am pretty sure you are a pretty naive person, despite your adherence to evolution.

You might understand evolution, but you kind of fail to understand the use of religion and faith.

[Warren DeMontague]

158. It is a FACT.

Sorry if you can't deal with it.

Edit: I understand religion and faith. Plenty of people seem perfectly able to reconcile both with evolution, and the Earth being round, and the galaxy being made up of stars and not angels, and the non-existence of unicorns, etc. etc.

It's only when people try to use their faith as an excuse to argue away what are, again, FACTS about reality that these things come into conflict.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

164. and by the way, *mister*, I said I believed in evolution

you responded without even reading my post because you continue to say that I don't believe in it.

so apparently you *are having difficulty with the text*.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. I'm a "jerk" and an "idiot"...

But at least I know enough not to break the rules around here. :hi:

[CreekDog]

167. You are naive

But correct as far as the rules go and I knew, but did it anyway.

But you called me worse without breaking the rules, I'll give you that.

[Warren DeMontague]

172. If I insulted you personally, it really wasn't my intent.

I suppose it depends on how you read what I wrote-- Or "one" reads what I wrote. I may have written "you" upthread with the meaning intended as "one" and you may have taken it as "you".

I don't think the people who believe in "God" and "evolution" simultaneously are "stupid" or even "wrong". I thought I made it clear upthread; evolution- the "theory" of evolution which is nonetheless a factual description of the history of life on this planet- (backed up, now, not just by fossil evidence but by the evidence of our own genetic code) - evolution makes no commentary on the existence or nonexistence of "God", "God" being a word on which almost no two people can seemingly agree on the meaning anyway.

But that's a far cry from saying that evolution is somehow up for debate or that there is "controversy" or "questions" around it. There isn't. It's only the people who can't reconcile their religious beliefs with the facts- and yeah, that includes evolution- who have problems with it.

[Warren DeMontague]

165. Yes, I do. It's a "theory" that the Earth is round. Nevertheless, it's also a FACT.

People with absolutely zero grasp of how science operates like to wave that "theory" thing around like it's a bloody shirt. It's like that line in the Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means".

[DangerDave921]

137. Holes

The most I would say for creationism is that evolution has a lot of holes in the historical record. I saw one writer who said that all of the humanoid bones ever discovered -- ever -- would fit in the back of a pick-up truck. And yet from that, scientists try to advance theories as to evolution of humans. And even in the scientific community, there is a lot of dispute as to whether certain bone fragments belong to one group or another.

[Selatius]

8. Almost half the country does not believe in evolution, as far as the last poll went.

So it's not just in bible belt areas that we're seeing this phenomenon, and I live in Mississippi.

[nam78_two]

79. Is that really true?

Wow-I had no idea it was that high :wow:. There are even scientists like that and that is pretty insane. I am a biophysicist, but I work with a lot of biologists and I know two biologists in my own department who are creationists (or IDers or something along those lines). I was stunned by that.
However, I honestly didn't think that half of this country was that deluded about the science of evolution.

I suspect that with a lot of people, it doesn't even have much to do with religious beliefs. It is more tied to some sort of generic distrust of "those elitist scientists and science" and the strong anti-intellectualism of the Bush years :shrug:. It is really strange...

[TheUniverse]

81. By creationist do you mean they believe god created the earth 6000 years ago with no evolution...

If that is truly what they believe, how did they get their degree, and how did they become biologists? This is like someone becoming an "expert at law" by reading the bible and quoting God's law.

[nam78_two]

135. Well I guess they are technically not biologists yet

Though, I guess you could consider them biologists in the sense that they (presumably) have undergraduate degrees in biology.
They are graduate students in the department and not professors or anything of that sort. But, as for how they could conceivably get their degrees, there are a lot of people out there these days who somehow scramble together a degree in some field they are not particularly good at or passionate about. They often graduate with a fistful of Bs and Cs and never end up doing any research or even actually working in the field, but they will have a degree of some sort to their name. So there are some pretty incompetent people out there with degrees. I do know that both these two kids aren't doing particularly well-one has been kicked out of two labs they rotated through so far.

[TheUniverse]

159. Maybe they got their undergrad degee at Bob Jones University...

I know if I wrote a paper on that creationist nonsense in a real college, even in Biology 101 or Astronomy 101, I would get an F. Hell, I learned the universe and the Earth are billions of years old in the 1st grade. Why haven't they yet?

[Fridays Child]

9. I hope she refuses all flu shots and new classes of antibiotics.

I mean, obviously, emerging pathogens do not exist, right?

[ThomCat]

25. Oh, I'm sure she believes in magic or something.

There's almost certainly an explanation other than evolution. :P

[wuushew]

13. The key to deprogramming is small steps

illustrations using a simple examples of rational deduction can invariably be expanded to include more complex ideas.


The problem I have with religious thinkers is any progress that is made can be undone by relapses which invariably occurs in the absence of reinforcement.


This is true not only of scientific ideas but factual and political concepts as well. I am currently trying to deprogram one of my best friends who somehow just knows "Saddam had something to do with 9/11". I blame myself for such a unfortunate situation.

[The2ndWheel]

17. The key to deprogramming is

"any progress that is made can be undone by relapses which invariably occurs in the absence of reinforcement"

small steps of programming?

[wuushew]

33. What was the question?

I was only relaying my personal experiences in successful use of rhetoric as defined in the classical sense, the art of communicating ideas and persuasion.

[The2ndWheel]

39. I'm asking if the only way

to deprogram someone from thinking incorrectly(as defined by the one doing the deprogramming), is to program them to think correctly(as defined by the one doing the programming).

A possibly more important question, is why does it matter? Why does it matter if someone doesn't accept evolution? Why does it matter if someone does? Isn't the world a better place if both ideas exist? Isn't diversity a good thing? The next question might be; who allowed me to define what a better world might be? Am I trying to deprogram you?

You know what, we should ask the CIA. They might know. Then they might try and reinforce our lapses. Better yet, let's not ask them.

[wuushew]

48. You would be surprised how people's internal beliefs affect real world situations

I once dated a girl who had some emotional and mental issues. Her treatment was delayed by a bunch Inter-varsity Christian types who tried to convince her that it was Satan or demons or some garbage causing her grief. She was eventually hospitalized and got the help she needed.

I have found that people's mental laziness spills over into the concrete world. Inability to realize the concept of coincidence or serendipity colors peoples concept of cause and effect. What types of concepts are involved in insurance, threat assessment or public safety?

These people vote you know. There are always referendums to be voted, bonds measures, etc. These things affect me so I have a vested interest in prevailing. I am not mind raping them I am just speaking my mind. They don't have to listen.

If they don't want to be hassled then they can keep their beliefs to themselves otherwise they are fair game.

[The2ndWheel]

58. You were saying that sarcastically right?

You mean people's external beliefs don't affect the world?

So how does it end? Can competing ways of thought(lazy or not) exist with each other? Does one size ultimately have to fit all in order for an integrated world to function productively?

[unpossibles]

120. based on your username, I am kind of surprised

I used to agree with you, but the more this gets pushed down our collective throats, the less I can ignore it.

I am also sick of the "let's respect both sides equally" argument. Consider: if I say a triangle has four sides would you respect my statement or try to inform me why I am factually wrong?

[The2ndWheel]

207. "but the more this gets pushed down our collective throats, the less I can ignore it"

Every side feels the same way. It can be triangles, religion, or anything else. The more the various sides of our species thinks there is only one right way, whatever it is, the more things will be pushed down our collective throats by every side.

"if I say a triangle has four sides would you respect my statement or try to inform me why I am factually wrong?"

If someone wants to live in a world where a triangle has 4 sides, why should it matter to me? As long as they're not forcing me or anyone else to believe that 2+2=5, anyone can think whatever they like. Why do we insist on creating a one-size-fits-all world? Why do we have to have a label or a name for everything? Why does everything have to be numbered? All that does is force everyone to see the world the same way. It forces a certain way of thought down our collective throats. It works the same with religion, language, whatever.

Then when you organize an idea, centralize it, consolidate it, that's where the pushing and throats come in. That's part of our quest for perfection though. For a integrated global world to function efficiently, there has to be only one way. One economic system, one political system, one social system, one language, one thought, etc. But then that's how we got here. A thousand different ways of seeing, being, and thinking in the world slowly becomes 500, because of war, business, politics, whatever it may be. Then those 500 become 250. As time goes on, we end up in a world with a handful of dominant cultures, they all go to war, and we call that WW2. Then after that, we have a bi-polar world. Then a uni-polar world. Unless we have the energy to constantly maintain that single system, it will break down(as we're currently seeing).

I don't know, I just think trying to make everyone see a triangle as having 3 sides is a waste of energy.

[unpossibles]

208. I can dig it

Honestly, I am a very live and let live kind of person who has a wide variety of friends who believe all sorts of different things, and no I don't want us all to be homogeneous or even try to force my beliefs on anyone.

If someone wants to live in a world where a triangle has 4 sides, why should it matter to me? As long as they're not forcing me or anyone else to believe that 2+2=5, anyone can think whatever they like.

For me, the creationist thing crossed this line already, from trying to legislate allegedly intelligent design in science classes to just spreading misinformation meant to confuse the issue and muddy the waters of understanding when it comes to science by attacking Darwin's theory.

It does affect me, because I believe that it makes our (MY) society weaker if we go backward. I honestly don't care if someone believes that magic dwarves can fly out of their butts, but the minute a well-organized group tries to teach kids in America that this is true, I am going to fight it, and the best way to fight ignorance is through education. I'm sorry, but I see the attack on evolution as yet another in a long and ongoing attempt to discredit scientific progress simply because that scares a fairly small group of people. They have confounded the understanding of what a scientific theory is, and frankly that bothers me. I am afraid to see what the results will be in 10-20 years from the damage done today.

We complain about outsourcing, but what happens when our children cannot compete with those who understand how the world works because they have been learning mythology in science class? Why should I allow my tax dollars to be spent teaching something that has absolutely zero factual evidence behind it? I am fine with discussion of religion in other classes - I have studied several religions, philosophies, and arts: science class is not the place for that, and to imply that a religion is the same as a well-established and proven theory does a great disservice to us all.

I would have the same problem about illiteracy. Yes, someone has the right to not be able to communicate, but am I really doing them a service or respecting them by ignoring it? I don't think so.

Again, I don't fight other aspects of religion - even those that I find personally ridiculous, because it's not my business. Why? because they have not made it my business. The more they push to make America officially a "Christian" nation, the more I will fight their efforts. If other Christians do not like this, then perhaps it is their duty to get their brethren to stop trying to legislate their God on me and everyone else.

[wuushew]

31. delete

[flyingfysh]

16. they also do not believe in geology or astronomy

You can't do serious geology without talking about how many millions of years old various rocks are. Doing astronomy includes studying origins of stars, galaxies, and planets.

As a kid I got into serious trouble for mentioning the scientific view of how the solar system was formed.

[BlooInBloo]

18. She's par for the course. It's a big part of American stupidity.

[EVDebs]

34. Sadly the progressive Wm Jennings Bryan of Inherit The Wind fame

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x56004

prosecuted the Scopes trial. You need to take the good with the bad and keep up a dialogue. They're convertable.

However, the danger of 'Darwinism' has always been Social Darwinism, the survival of the 'fittest', in this case those with the most money. In this respect Bryan can be seen as heroic, despite what you might get out of seeing the Spencer Tracy classic.

[BlooInBloo]

45. "social darwinism" has nothing in common with "darwinism" except its name.

[Odin2005]

78. Social Darwinism derives from a Victorian Age misunderstanding of evolution.

Most people who used evolution to legitimize inequality never really understood the science, mainly because the misconceptions fit in better with the mindset of the Victorian Age then the actual science; "Social Darwinism" should really be called "Social Lamarckism,"

[EVDebs]

197. ...and survival of the "fittest" (them with the bucks were assumed fitter)

[ChickMagic]

19. I've seen it in unexpected places

One of the doctors I work with is a creationist!
Docs sometimes don't get scientific method in their
studies unless they are going into research. I was
blown away by that.

Hi ThomCat!!! :hug:

[ThomCat]

26. Hi ginbarn!

:hug:

:loveya:

[CottonBear]

20. I live in the Bible Belt so I'm used to people who think like this.

However, not everyone in the South is a Creationist.

I live in a blue college town so I am not completely surrounded by these folks but there are plenty of creationists out there in the surrounding areas which are more rural, suburban and small town.

There are some prominent UGA scientists who believe in "intelligent design." :eyes:
That really blows my mind: having an PhD in organic chemistry and being a creationist.
They seem to be sincere in their religious beliefs.

You would be surprised at he number of people who write letters to the editor of the local paper (many of the writers live in the surrounding red counties and cities) about teaching abstinence only in sex education, promoting prayer in school, promoting creationism, supporting the Chimp and that climate change is not actually occurring.

My family is mostly Republican but they believe in evolution and science. They are educated (Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, NC State etc.) professional (doctors, teachers, nurses, business executives) Presbyterians. Presbyterians, for the most part, are able to believe in both God and science.

[Odin2005]

80. The sad thing is that there are even left-wing acedemics that attack evolution.

I've run into a philosophy message board called the "Galilean Library" that's filled with postmodernism-leaning philosophers that think science, evolutionary biology especially, is a religion. When I tried to post there I got a bunch of rants about "Scientism" and how "Karl Popper was an idiot because Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend proved that scientific objectivity is a social construct." :banghead:

[Greyhound]

21. Just wait until the tens of millions of the "home schooled" start to inundate society.

We're just seeing the very beginning of this disaster.

Before you all start beating and crying about the wonderful, well educated, erudite, and all-around superior people you know that were "home schooled", I'm talking about the overwhelming majority not the rare exceptions.

[EVDebs]

30. God's Harvard, Patrick Henry Univ

I'll bet they wouldn't have hired Stephen Gould, LOL !

[sakabatou]

23. Have no fear

FSTDT.com is here!

No that's not an ad, i just love the site.

[EVDebs]

29. Related DU post. I found it quite interesting

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x56004

[ThomCat]

35. Cool. Thank you for cross-posting this.

:)

[EVDebs]

36. See post #34 re Wm Jennings Bryan and you can see where they're coming from

... as long as their hearts are in the right place. Bryan was a cool dude progressive, let's not forget that. And Social Darwinism lead to WWII and Hitler's purge of Jews ultimately.

[IndianaJones]

32. Only the enlightened in NYC. must be an interloper. nt.

[EVDebs]

37. Prior to the Big Bang, we're all in a muddle. Join the club !

"I came upon a child of God...

We are stardust, we are golden"

Joni Mitchell--Woodstock

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/joni-mitchell/woodstock.html

[Greyhound]

41. I thought Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young did that one. n/t

:shrug:

[EVDebs]

42. She wrote it , they dug it, she didn't mind if they did it, and we all 'got lucky'

[backscatter712]

38. Speak to her slowly, using small words and simple grammar.

You don't want to overload her limited mental capabilities, do you?

[EVDebs]

40. It's Social Darwinism that's captivated the GOP for sooo long

talk to her about that and show her who 'Bush's Base' is. The irony is too much to bear !

Besides, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy"--Benjamin Franklin

[EST]

43. The oldest profession is alive and well.

As much as it seems illogical and retro, the need of humans for some kind of "god" and the attendant trappings that implies has been repeatedly demonstrated all through recorded and not so recorded.history.
With every religion, faith, belief system, there were the devout believers whose desperate need for whatever it is that this sort of practice affords them, somewhat resembles a receptor on a cell for a particular substance. They need it. It fits their need.

Then there were the ones who perhaps envied a bit those who derived pleasure and fulfillment from their addiction or need but didn't get it at all, merely adopting protective coloration for whatever benefits it afforded them, and others who refused to put up with it at all.
They tended to be the examples which provided the envious ones with ample reasons to protect their butts by playing chameleon.

And then there were the charlatans--who did not see themselves as charlatans--who were the best magicians around at the time, providing entertainment and fleecing the rubes in an era with little in the way of diversion.

Each group sees its own worldview as the one with real validity and the others either held onto because of the holder's cupidity, stupidity, naivete or ignorance.

Finding a way to allow someone else to see the validity of your worldview can be done, but, short of stomping in, guns drawn and blazing and killing all who don't agree, can demand a finesse of personal touch and an intention toward understanding can be quite difficult.
Any tools you use can help, applied thoughtfully, but one of the most important lessons I ever learned in exposing delicate psyches to reality is that, while guilt can be powerful tool, shame is not, ever. Shame can only destroy people.
Sadly, that tool of destruction is often employed with abandon, the wielder blissfully unaware of the difference and of the damage they do.

The other helpful tip for me was that people have spent a lifetime getting to where they are so it might take another lifetime for them to discover their own enlightenment. Patience is key--if you have time for it.:toast:

[ThomCat]

46. I'm not even going to try to change her views.

There would be no point in it. She's happy and harmless the way she is. :)

[Jamastiene]

44. It's hell.

That's what it's like being around that many people who think that way. My aunt even thinks that way, as sad as that is and she's a die hard democrat too. :wow:

:hi:

[ThomCat]

47. I am fortunate that nobody in my family is anti-science.

They have many other wonderful flaws, but that isn't one of them. :)

And even though there were a lot of fundies where I grew up, I guess I was sheltered from the worst of it. I didn't really know the anti-science crowd existed until I was an adult.

:hi:

[0rganism]

50. They're all over the place -- something like half the population, IIRC

Welcome to the sad reality of our situation.

[paparush]

51. Bash her in the face with a brick...Its the only way

:sarcasm:

[ThomCat]

54. Um, what exactly is your point?

:shrug:

[paparush]

200. Sarcasm = Joke

I was making a joke.

[thetaoofterri]

52. Welcome to daily life in Arkansas

and, unfortunately, it is not getting any better. I was born and raised in California and moved here several years ago and getting ready to move out. People here are really different. I feel like I am in another country.

[Marrah_G]

53. Ask her if the world is round

Because once upon a time it was blasphemous to think it was anything but flat and the center of the universe.

[JVS]

55. How is that really any of your concern?

[ThomCat]

60. This is a discussion forum.

We discuss things here.

Many of those things may not directly concern everyone here.

You have participated in many such discussion.

Is there a problem?

:shrug:

[unpossibles]

123. you're joking, right?

I tell you how it's all of our concerns:

the dumbing down of America, and the acceptance of it, is going to be our downfall. Ironically, the push by the young earth creationists is what made me decide to NOT ignore this ignorance any more.

[johnnie]

56. Some of you people crack me up

Who gives a fuck if people don't believe in it? As long as they are not hurting anyone then what's the problem? My mother don't believe in evolution. She doesn't go around beating people over the head with it. She is a good person and lives her life. She said that they didn't even hear of evolution until they were out of school back then and she is comfortable with the way she feels. So please tell me why my mother is such a fucking dumb ass? And how is she hurting you?

[ThomCat]

61. Did I imply that anyone was hurting anyone?

:shrug:

Defensive much?

[johnnie]

63. No you didn't

And that was my point. She isn't hurting anyone but most of the people on here are acting like she is destroying the world because she has her own beliefs.

If you want to talk about being defensive, read 95% of the posts on this thread.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Well I sure hope she doesn't vote.

And, for the love of God, doesn't have anything to do with education.

[ThomCat]

68. Fortunately, no and no.

She works in finance. And she doesn't believe there is any point in paying attention to politics. "It doesn't affect me, and they're all the same anyway, so why bother."

[johnnie]

70. My mother votes

And votes for Dems every time. She also supports same sex marriages and equal rights. Her belief in creationism is something she learned as a child and it is her personal belief. Btw, there are a lot of people who believe in evolution that voted for bush. Just sayin'

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Yeah, and there are people who think the world is round that voted for Bush.

That doesn't mean people who think the world is flat aren't stupid.

[harun]

72. As someone with an education you should know it is just

a theory.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. As someone in education, I know evolution is a straight up fact.

Like water is wet, and 1 + 1 = 2.

[0rganism]

97. "just a theory"? No, it is a *scientific theory*

The catchphrase "just a theory" is often applied by deniers who don't understand that a "theory" is, for scientists, about the highest degree of certainty there is. There is no "just" or "only" about it.

A scientific theory
1) explains observable facts,
and
2) predicts future events.

The Theory of evolution explains the Facts of evolution and makes useful predictions about future discoveries in fields like paleontology and genetics. It is the cornerstone of modern biology, and one of the best-supported and well-reviewed Theories in existence.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. Uh, please explain what you mean by JUST A THEORY.

Assuming you have an education, do you have any clue how science WORKS? Do you know what a scientific "theory" is? Do you understand that every proposition relating to reality in science- from gravity to the Earth's roundness to the aerodynamics that keep your airplane flying- is "just a" theory?


Or do you just like to propagate religious right bullshit for fun?

[toddaa]

174. So's gravity, wanna test it?

Pushing creationists off of tall buildings is a excellent refresher course in scientific theory.

[BlooInBloo]

185. Yup. Just like theory of gravity. An educated person knows that...

... "theory" as a scientific word is not synonymous with "theory" the general-usage word.

[PDenton]

64. agreed

There are worse things to be than a creationist or somebody who "doesn't believe in Evolution". For the average person, they don't see it as relevent to their lives, and they are more comfortable believing in their religion. It's a free country, people, and not everybody who believes in "creationism" is a klansman or backwoods yokel.

[mudesi]

94. Well I don't respect your mother

Sorry.

Willful ignorance is what leads to corporate fascism.

[johnnie]

124. No need to be sorry

I can guarantee you that neither she nor I give a shit if you respect her or not. If I were to tell her "lynyrd_skynyrd doesn't respect you" she would probably say "good they sucked anyway"...lol. I can also assure you she has no part to play in "corporate fascism".

What I find even more amusing about this thread is that there are people here that think that because they are taking some sort of stand against other's beliefs on some obscure Internet website, they are actually doing something important. Now who's talking about believing something from la la land?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

217. "Now who's talking about believing something from la la land?"

Your mom.

[johnnie]

222. Well that's a given. She has always been a bit whacked out

But after seeing that you have close to 20,000 posts here in about a year and a half, I have to wonder who is the one living in reality more. Do you ever go outside?

[Warren DeMontague]

168. To me, it indicates a failure of our public education system.

But beyond that, as long as she's not trying to shoehorn that nonsense into my kids' school curriculum, I don't care what she thinks.

[AngryAmish]

57. Crush her

Get her fired, destroy her marriage, get her kids kicked out of school.

Do whatever it takes.

We can't have these people in our nation if we are to acheive justice and freedom.

[ThomCat]

62. wtf?

:wtf:

Take your meds. You'll feel better.

[Ishoutandscream2]

93. AA is into dark humor

He really is a hoot. He meant no harm.

[ThomCat]

96. Ah. Okay, I can see that.

In that case, I apologize for the snark. :)

[Ishoutandscream2]

134. Oh no, don't apologize.

If you don't know AA, then the reaction that you had was a natural one.

AA's humor is just downright dark. I really dig him for it, simply because I'm kinda of into it, too.

[nealmhughes]

190. As long as your mom continues to vote Progressive Democratic, I don't care if she sacrifices

under a fullmoon at the crossroads! "We are all entitled to hold our hereditary superstitions dear" as a wise man once said.

[XemaSab]

59. I've met some biologists in California who don't.

That kool-aid kills brain cells alright. :(

[Disturbed]

69. It boils down to this:

People who do not accept the fact of Evolution refuse to accept that homo sapians evolved from apes. They feel that is degrading because they view apes in a negative way.

In the Jewish Bible it says that man was created in God's image. That is taken literally by millions; meaning that God is a human, the "man upstairs". The concept could mean that humans are similar to God in that they think & are creative. Taking the statements in the Bible literally is simple minded.

[ThomCat]

77. And yet, they never examine the contradiction.

God is supposedly infinite and has no physical form, so how could we be created in his physical image?
:shrug:

I know in christian mysticism they interpret this to mean that our souls were created in the image of god, because that is the only part of us that is made of the same stuff as god.

Ceremonial Magic takes that concept further. Because our souls are made in the image of god, we are all little versions of god, which means we each have a small connection to god's power. Ceremonial magic is the process of expanding and developing your inherent godhood implied by "created in god's image." As you develop and expand that connection you supposedly can exert small portions of god's power, which allows you to summon and command angels and demons. (which is what jewish and christian magic was largely based upon.)

[0rganism]

92. the notion of physical resemblance to God improves with evolution, IMHO

Clearly, if an omnipotent being such as God had physical form, that form would be metamorphic (as omnipotence requires). The bible itself points to divine manifestations in nonhuman form (e.g., the burning bush). What better way to confirm that "He created us in His own image" than by embracing evolution, insofar as all the wildly diverse living "creations" of God descend from a common ancestry? His image is unconstrained, multiple, and reflected in all living things. What could possibly be a greater interpretation of scripture than that?

Young-earth creationist hardliners deny their own place in the Tree of Life by rejecting evolution. And through that denial, they do their part to maintain the absurd and unearned privelege of a divine mandate for total control that even now threatens the existence of life as we know it.

[CreekDog]

121. In Christianity, you can take the "God's image" literally

Christianity holds to the Trinity, God in three persons.

Thus, when they say, "let us make man in our image"

That image is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and it can be argued that man has qualities of each. One of those persons is Jesus who is human. It would not be inconsistent to say that we do resemble him and could have been originally created in his image.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. I'm not religious in the western sense, but the Bible also says God is "I AM THAT I AM".

Couldn't that be taken to mean that "God's image" is anything that is sentient, aware, self-aware and perceptive, i.e. "I"?

[Tyler Durden]

206. In other words, God is Popeye the Sailor Man.

I yam what I yam and 'at's ALL what I yam.

I'm Popeye the Sailor Man
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man
I'm strong to the finich
Cause I eats me spinach
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man

I'm one tough gazookus
Which hates all palookas
Wot ain't on the up and square
I biffs 'em and buffs 'em
An' always outroughs 'em
An' none of 'em gets nowhere

If anyone dasses to risk me fisk
It's "boff" and its "wham", un'erstand
So, keep good behavior
That's your one life saver
With Popeye the Sailor Man.

I'm Popeye the Sailor Man
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man
I'm strong to the finich
Cause I eats me spinach
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man

[Warren DeMontague]

215. Well, we all know what happened when Napoleon went to Mount Olive.

Popeye got pissed.

[babydollhead]

67. my next door neighbor doesn't believe in evolution

I always tell people when I introduce her. "She doesn't belive in evolution" she says, "I don't know what I believe." she is Buddist, democratic, and an old hippee.

[Bucky]

74. She's wrong. People didn't just "make up" evolution. Satan did it.

And he's tricked you all but good! Ooooh that Satan! Man, he really gets my goat.

Ha! Get it? Satan gets my goat? Ha! That's a pun!

[ThomCat]

75. She actually suggested that Satan created the idea of Evolution.

He's out to fool all of us, and he creates all kinds of things just to give us stuff to disagree about.
:eyes:

[Kajsa]

82. It's possible to believe

in evolution and God.

They are not mutually exclusive.

[ThomCat]

86. Of course. Many people do.

I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

But people who believe in god, and don't believe in evolution, are on step further down the road of belief.

[Kajsa]

98. Absolutely, ThomCat!

btw- How the heck are you?

Sorry I haven't been around so much, lately.

Back to the thread-

True, true, the all or nothing Fundies ( or Fundie-lites)
are really short sighted.
Somehow, Science becomes the " enemy" and " reason"
a close second. Hey- God as I know him(her) wants
me to incorporate Science and reason in my thinking.

Wow- imagine that! :wow:

Yep, the evolution only gang has me baffled.
And it's really difficult to explain this to them.

Check it out,;-)





Hang in there,

:hi: :hug:

[ThomCat]

125. Hi Kajsa!

I'm hanging in there, and doing reasonably well. Thank you. :)

That is a scary cartoon, mostly because of how true it is. It would be a huge step forward if we could get religion out of our government. :(

I think there is a famous Galileo quote that agrees with exactly what you said. Paraphrasing from memory, I think it is,

"I refuse to believe that a God who endowed me with the capacity for reason does not intend for me to use them."

[Kajsa]

128. Late, late edit.

I meant -No evolution gang.


:banghead:

[negativenihil]

84. hah

just laugh in their face and move on with your day.

some people simply don't want to be educated.

[ThomCat]

89. She's one of the nicest people. I won't laugh at her.

We laugh together about a whole lot of things.

All I can do when I think about this is just shake my head. I don't understand the way people think, to put a book of myths ahead of even the most simple and basic ideas in science.

[negativenihil]

91. more power to you. n/t

[slackmaster]

87. We have an "Everything you know is WRONG!" guy at work

He was raised Roman Catholic but rebelled against it and became an evangelical. Now he believes the RCC was in league with the Nazis and the Soviets in a grand conspiracy.

But if you get to know him he'll tell you why he is way into "alternative" medicine. One of his children had a bad reaction to a vaccination, and has permanent neurological damage.

It takes the Village People to raise a child.

[L. Coyote]

88. My friend is sad that I will spend eternity in HELL because I am a scientist

Oh well. I'm not going to give up science to make him happier on Earth when he believes he will be happy for eternity :rofl:

But, oh is he miserable now. What with the ACLU selling out America to the pinkos and all....

[Dukkha]

105. Hell is a great place to live

full of the greatest scientists, philosophers, artists, musicians. Truly a paradise of intellectual discovery.

[L. Coyote]

109. It is a great comfort to know you will be spending eternity with only like-minded!

:rofl:

[kineneb]

176. nah, you won't go to hell

the rest of us get Valhalla, where there is good food and really good beer. I could go for a place with continual feasting, great desserts, and quality drinks... and no weight gain! Or if you prefer, the heaven of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, where there is a beer volcano. Ramen!

Having lived through severe clinical depression, I don't believe in a hell after death. I have lived in it already, and it is to be found in the tormented minds of the living. That is what I tell the fanatical. It usually leaves them in stunned silence.

And for evolution- matter is neither created nor destroyed. So where was the matter/energy before it became the universe? The existence of the universe is the proof for evolution. Otherwise all is delusion, and there is no reality, only each "person's" individual delusion. Mine doesn't include belief in fairy tales.

As you may guess, the creationist types don't get far with me.

[renie408]

90. That's better than having your kid's Social Studies teacher announce that

"I just don't believe this, but 'scientists' said it..." when discussing the remains of ancient humans found in Tanzania.

Thankfully, my eleven year old daughter told me after she relayed the incident, "Yeah, Miss Tucker's sweet, but she's kind of stupid."


BTW... I live DEEP in the Bible belt (SC) and while we might get more creationism here than other places, I was really pleased with how evolution was discussed and handled at the high school level. My son's ninth grade class a couple of years ago had a thorough discussion of evolution and when one girl stood up and threw a fit about it, the teacher told her she could leave if she felt like she should, but she would receive an 0 for that day's participation grade. She stayed.

[ThomCat]

95. I wish more science teachers has the backing

to do that. I don't see a lot of school districts having the courage.

[renie408]

99. I was really pleased when my son told me about it. But then...

I was displeased when he told me his AP American History teacher keeps his Bible in a prominent position on his desk. But he doesn't ever really refer to it, so I guess that is just me being hyper-picky.

[Kajsa]

Ho-Boy!

I'm a substitute teacher, 7-12.

Guess what Social Studies teacher?

What we educators " believe in " or not has nothing to do with the lesson!

Just teach the material, keep it objective,
and let the little ones make up their own minds.

So far, they are doing a great job!

[TZ]

100. I actually had a lab tech coworker at a biotech company

tell me evolution wasn't correct because carbon dating is "unreliable'! A person in the science field!
That was a real eye opener!:wtf:

[ThomCat]

122. That is truly scary.

I hope he's not planning on becoming a researcher.

[TZ]

170. No fortunately...

he went into sales and marketing...which I think was an appropriate area for a freeper-type fundie.

[Dukkha]

101. ah, willful stupidity

the cornerstone of the modern christian. ignore the fact that science proved all your beliefs wrong long ago.

[renie408]

104. Arrogance...the cornerstone of the uninformed.

You cannot prove a belief is wrong. And science has NOT done that anyway. I am, BTW, an atheist. But I defend the rights of others to hold their beliefs. I don't think ridiculing people for their beliefs is any better than castigating someone for their lack of belief.

[Dukkha]

107. well I do and I will

and yes beliefs CAN be proven wrong! or are you naive enough to believe the world is flat and the center of the universe and gods live on Mount Olympus. Just one of an infinite amount of religious myths science did away with long ago. but christians would rather believe in a silly fairy tale because their afraid to face the grim reality of their simple worthless lives, and worse force devolution into the education system to dumb down America even further.

[renie408]

141. oh...my,,,GOD!! THE WORLD ISN'T FLAT?????

No, idget, I don't believe those things. And I don't think any of those things are in the Bible, either, BTW (if you are going to say you don't believe, you should at least get educated about that which you don't believe). Also, all Christians do not take a literal view of the Bible. In fact, most don't. If you view most of the Bible as a parable, you can cover a lot of ground with that sucker. Including that which is also covered by science.

You have, however, hit the nail on the head with the last bit. I don't care what other people 'believe' as long as they keep their beliefs out of my government and my school system.

It is wrong to raise yourself up by dismissing others' beliefs as 'silly fairy tales'. At least, that's what I believe.

[BlooInBloo]

198. Literally, the person is right - empircal beliefs can't be *proven* wrong....

... It's useless for the general point they were after, but it is true.

Quick logic reason: Any proof of a non-purely-logical relies on premises.

Quick epistemological reason: Any single belief can be consistently maintained, if one is willing to fiddle with enough OTHER beliefs.


Sentimentally, I'm with you, though. The better route to go would be to criticize the solipsistic sceptic by reason of red-herring, rather than on the ground of falsity.

[Evoman]

108. If someone has stupid, idiot, nonsensical beliefs

then I will castigate them if I want. There is nothing sacred about beliefs. Its not like the fucking jury is out on evolution.

[Skittles]

118. I believe the world is flat!

NOW RESPECT MY BELIEF! :rofl:

There are beliefs, especially of the religious kind, that I am forced to tolerate but no WAY can I be made to RESPECT them

[renie408]

157. I have yet to meet anybody who thought the world was flat.

And even if they did, why not respect it? Respecting someone else's beliefs doesn't mean you have to agree with them. It means giving them the room to believe what they will. I am not saying you can't try to give them the information that proves the world is round. I am saying, you give the information and then give the space to work it out on their own. You could even say, "Wow. That is so outside of my understanding of how things work. Why do you believe that?" But it just grates on me to hear people laugh at other people for the way they think. That doesn't seem so elevated to me. But hey, if it makes you feel good about you, whatever.

[Skittles]

204. there's a difference between toleration and respect

I tolerate the RIGHT of people believing what they want but I reserve the right to ridicule IDIOCY. Respecting the RIGHT of people to believe what they want to believe does not necessarily mean I have to RESPECT what they say

[renie408]

149. Did you stick out your tongue after that?

"I will castigate them if I want...so there!!"

Do beliefs have to be sacred to everyone to be respected? And who said anything about evolution?


BTW...have you read "Evolution: Triumph of an Idea" by Carl Zimmer? I just finished it a couple of weeks ago and thought it was excellent. I am now trying to wade through "The Ancestor's Tale" by Richard Dawkins, but it is a lot heavier reading. Or maybe Dawkins just has a drier delivery.

[CreekDog]

115. Amen!

yes, what the atheist said!

Seriously. Thank you.

[renie408]

154. NO problem. I have always wondered why it is OK to sneer at

what others believe. I have friends who believe all kinds of things that seem pretty damn weird to me (I had a friend tell me once that she was 'on the path to Native American enlightenment'. Hey, whatever gets you through the day.) The only problem I have is when beliefs find their way into school or government. Short of that, it ain't none of me.

[ThomCat]

193. Do you have the same objection to the Christianity

finding its way into our schools and government?

[ThomCat]

131. Science is ALL ABOUT proving beliefs are wrong.

It's based on the idea of testing and disproving theories, repeatedly, until you develop theories that are more accurate and cannot yet be disproven.

It is a constant, on-going process of disproving everything that can be disproven.

And science HAS disproven a huge amount of religious belief.

[renie408]

138. No, science is the study of the natural world. And it has disproven

things for you. If someone else holds a belief, then, well, they BELIEVE it. Faith isn't about proof or science. It's about believing in the face of proof, I imagine. Belief does not belong in a Science class. Science belongs in a science class.

I do not have belief. I tried, couldn't do it. I 'believe' in evolution and the Big Bang Theory. I do not believe in any kind of sentient god. That does not make rational sense TO ME. Another thing I believe in is respecting people who believe things differently from me. I don't argue with anyone's belief, they are welcome to it. What I have a problem with is not being given the same respect. I do not think their 'belief' belongs in my government or in my school.

BTW..due to the nature of belief, there are many, many pretty intelligent people who would tell you that science has 'disproved' nothing. As long as you don't take a literal view of the Bible, you can stretch belief to pretty much cover anything.

[ThomCat]

140. The scientific method is based on the null hypothesis.

You deliberately search for ways to disprove your own theories. That's how science tests and refines theory.

Any theory that cannot be tested, any theory that does not have a null hypothesis (a test or condition that would prove it wrong) is not a scientific theory.

So you are wrong. Science hasn't just disproven things "for me." It has disproven things. Period.

If you ignore and discount the proof then you can still believe things that have been disproven. That doesn't mean that it hasn't been disproven, only that you choose to be deluded by things that are known to not be true.

[renie408]

144. I think my point got lost.

I am not going to argue with you about the science, because I understand and agree. I was thinking less about things like, "The world is 5000 years old." and more about things like "god created everything." People will find a way to either fit the science into what they believe or they will find a way to ignore the science or they will cut some mental backflips and get around it that way. I have always found the best way to approach beliefs is to acknowledge them and respect them. Even within the scientific community there is a level of belief at work. They keep trying to disprove/prove those parts. But even scientists get stuck on their beliefs. Einstein and a unifying theory, for instance. In the face of all evidence to the contrary, Einstein never gave up on a unifying theory of everything. The science did not effect his belief.

I might have had a knee jerk reaction because I hate to see people denigrated for what they believe.

[CreekDog]

155. Except the existence of God

[ThomCat]

177. There has never been any evidence to try to disprove.

A central requirement of science is that there has to be evidence. Science cannot examine or disprove something for which there is nothing but faith.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

218. Science disproved Creationism 160 years ago.

Maybe you remember?

[MedleyMisty]

102. Where does regional prejudice come from?

I was born right here in North Carolina. Can't remember going through a machine that turned me into a cardboard stereotype as a kid. And if there was one at the hospital where I was born, it didn't work because everyone I know here is an individual. In fact, most of the people I went to high school with were decidedly not conservative fundamentalist Christians.

[Catherine Vincent]

103. Is your co-worker's name Phoebe Buffay? n/t

[Avalux]

106. Evolution is something people made up? LOL.

That's almost as good as believing the devil planted fossils and dinosaur bones to trick people.

[CreekDog]

112. Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!

or maybe it should be nephew.

[unpossibles]

114. ask her why God put my food hole where my air hole is

dolphins don't choke. From an engineering standpoint, we're piss-poorly designed.

[JoePhilly]

148. Ask her why God sometimes makes Cats with 2 heads.

Or why an intelligent designer made some of us with Allergies?

Or why our DNA is about 96% the same as chimps ... was God doing trial and error?

Or why primitive verions of our organs appear in other animals?

And then ... is it one god, or many? One for each species? Which makes way more sense. Or even an Alien race that "planted" numrous life forms here.

Why God?

[rockymountaindem]

117. Um... plenty of my friends feel the same way

It doesn't detract from their humanity.

[Skittles]

119. it does when their beliefs are the basis for idiotic laws

funny how all the people I know who don't believe in evolution very much believe in the Iraq war

[Dukkha]

136. like those in the future who would've had a chance at life

if stem cell research were allowed to proceed to find a cure. Or maybe not, but the point is we'll never know now.

The most ludicrous belief I've heard from a fundy is that global warming is part of the coming apocalypse and to work against it is to go against god's will.
:wtf:

[ThomCat]

139. The most ludicrous belief I've ever heard from a fundy

is that they even know "god's will."

If there was a god (ha ha) and if that god really had plans for the world, I seriously doubt they'd be encoded in a poorly written contradictory book cobbled together by various bronze and iron age scribes. I'm sure he/she/it would have released periodic instructions with updates and corrections.

I'm sure he/she/it wouldn't have used religious warfare as his primary historical distribution system.

And I doubt that people who obscess about a book written by bronze and iron age scribes would be the only ones able to acurately deterime that god's will.

[kineneb]

180. I came up with this

"Hello, you have reached the Planet Earth Prayer Answering Service. We are sorry, but the god of your choice is not available at the moment to take your prayer. Please leave your request after the tone, and he/she/it may or may not grant your prayer in a timely manner, depending on your activities and/or quality of worship.

Please be aware that depending on your deity or religion, the service time for answering prayers may be up to two centuries, so you may wish to consider solving your problems on your own.

The deities wish to thank you for your continuing worship."

*Beep*

[ThomCat]

186. That is pretty cool.

:)

[Orsino]

126. It's okay. It worked fine for nearly thee billion years,,,

...before she came along, and isn't about to stop now.

[Left Is Write]

127. I don't live in the Bible Belt, but I'm definitely surrounded by stunning people.

Not in a good way.

My best friend is like me, and having her around is like having a life preserver on a raging sea.

[Ghost in the Machine]

130. Evolution *and* Creationism (God) are flawed theories

Not totally wrong, but not totally right either. It's actually a working combination of both theories, if you take away the "all knowing, all being omnipotence" part of creationism & the "we all evolved from single cell amoebas" of evolution.

[wuushew]

132. Evolution is an EXTREMELY robust theory

Finding fault with it means finding fault with the scientific method in general.

[Ghost in the Machine]

142. They created their own *faults* in the theory of evolution, and that's

why they can't find their "missing link"... because there *isn't* one.

We didn't evolve from amoebas, tadpoles or monkeys. Once you understand that, you'll see things clearer.

This planet was already here. Somewhere else in the Universe there existed another planet & civilization that was either:

A. Over-populated and dying because it was running out of natural resources

B. Facing nuclear annihilation or

C. Facing destruction from a cosmic event, such as a meteor impact.

Whichever was the case, they were actively seeking another planet suitable and capable of sustaining life, much like our space exploration missions.

They found *this* planet, which seemed to fit their needs, and they started experimenting by populating different parts of the planet that looked promising.

They started out with plants & insects, placing them here to see how they would grow, change & adapt(evolve) to their surroundings. Once they saw that the plants & insects would survive, they started experimenting with sea life and larger animals to see how *they* would grow, change & adapt(evolve) to their surroundings.

I believe that cavemen might have been a rudimentary experiment in cross breeding on their part, possibly to try to start a new "race" or species. However, the race never fully developed and advanced to their desired intelligence level, so they then "made man" by either cloning themselves or using a test tube baby.

They then put this "man" here to see how he would grow, change & adapt(evolve) to his atmosphere and surroundings....

Do I need to explain how the "Angels" were just astronauts & scientists coming here to check on their science experiment? Or how the "Virgin Birth" or "Immaculate Conception" was nothing more than an artificial insemination procedure carried out on Mary?

If you *really* want to support evolution and science as an explanation for life here, what do you think about this theory? These are all my original thoughts, I have no scientific reports or findings that I can link to to back up my claims, as they exist only in my head. Someone told me it sounds a little like Scientology, but I've never read anything about it or what their belief system is. Again, all I'm going on is what I've read in the bible, some basic principles of science, and something that was 'revealed' to me many years ago.

Ok... now it's time to take a break in the middle of the sermon to pass the collection plate... :evilgrin:

Sermon will begin again in
10

9

8

7

6

..... still waiting?

[Lethe]

212. interesting idea, but there is evidence to refute your theory

There is evidence to prove that we did, in fact, evolve from the common ancestors of protists, tadpoles, monkeys, and even starfish. A lot of evidence.

I could write a very long post about it, but you could easily read a zoology book that emphasizes the phylogenetic relationships of the different groups of organisms. There will be a very long running theme in it that shows the physical characteristics humans have inherited because of our ancestors. (which is almost everything)

[rug]

133. Give her time. She'll change.

[proud patriot]

145. Is she one of those extra rib believing folks

because eve was made from adam's rib :crazy:

[ThomCat]

178. I don't know if she goes that far.

Though she does read a lot of "inspirational" christian books, so she's at probably least very accepting of the metaphore.

[nam78_two]

146. Actually some of the research being done in my lab has recently been picked up by some creationists

Those people are really strange. We recently got the cover photograph of a fairly high impact journal and they found us. We study motor proteins, which are basically little molecular motors/machines which are powered by ATP hydrolysis. My boss had given an interview in a local paper where he described them as "clever little machines that use ATP for fuel" or something of that sort and he said something to the effect that they are exquisitely designed. Obviously, it was not even remotely a nod to intelligent design or whatever. It was merely an appreciative comment about these molecules.

But, these guys picked that up and used it as "proof" that even these godless scientists have to admit that we have all these "little machines" in our bodies and that their "design" proves the work of a higher power blah blah. It was insane. Needless to say our boss is livid. The whole thrust of the nutsos was that we were doing work that we barely even comprehend and we are too dumb to see the clear proof of ID that is before our own eyes :crazy:.

[ThomCat]

179. That's funny.

I imagine it's less funny for you, seeing them try to co-opt your work. But it's still funny.

[Harper_is_Bush]

152. One of mine too. Says that the dating methods are imperfect. n/t

[Patsy Stone]

156. I have one too.

And he admitted it proudly and loudly in front of about 15 people. :eyes:

[Riktor]

160. I've heard worse...

Back when I was a teenager, I was invited by a friend to partake in a Catholic retreat. I was raised Catholic, which is partly why I am no longer Catholic. At any rate, I decided to be diplomatic and let these people say their peace to me before I went back about my business as a lapsed Catholic. At one point during the retreat, I became engaged in a heated debate with a fellow over the origin of life on Earth. I swear, it went like the Bill Hicks bit called "Dinosaurs in the Bible".

I don't know it got started, but I guess I made the mistake of saying the Earth was millions of years old. The fellow replies:

"No it isn't. It is only a few thousand years old."

Me: "How do you figure?"

Him: "It says in Bible."

Me: "Where???"

Him: "In Genesis, they list the names and ages of the descendants of Noah. Add the ages up and you get the date the universe began."

Me: " You're pulling my leg, right?"

Him: "No, sir."

Me: "Alright. What about the dinosaurs? We have skeletal remains, and they sure aren't mentioned anywhere in Bible. You'd figure if they existed at the same time as man, SOMEBODY would have noticed them. After all, most possessed a certain... gargantuan stature."

Him: "Oh, they're in the Bible."

Me: "Really, now"

Him: "Oh, yes. The Bible mentions plenty of 'beasts' and 'monsters'."

Me: "The Bible also mentions the Sun revolving around the Earth."

Him: "It does."

At that pointed, I took my leave and truly smoked a cigarette for the first time in my life. It was then, amidst the best nicotine high of my life, that I concluded that there is absolutely, positively, no cure for stupid.

[ThomCat]

181. There is no cure for stupid.

Truer words were never spoken. :)

[and-justice-for-all]

161. Poor dear...that is pretty sad

considering ALL the evidence that shows evolution is a fact. Religion, however, is something that people made up.

You might ask her this: If a friend of hers was shot, would she consider the evidence proving that they were shot or just take it all on faith? the obvious answer is that you take the evidence that proves it, not a hunch.

Religion is the greatest lie every sold. What make sit appealing to people is that religion offers easy answers and does not requier any thinking. The time span alone, 4,550mya, is too much for most people to grasp, even with the evidence their brain still can not wrap around Deep Time. Life first appeared on Earth 3,850 mya..

Evolution is a fact, so they might as well get use to it.
Creationism is psudeoscience nonsence.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/change/deeptime/index.html

[ljm2002]

163. Well, she's got a point...

...I mean obviously everything is just the way it's supposed to be.

Anyway, everyone knows that if God had wanted us to think, God would have given us brains.

Oh. Wait a minute...

[Schema Thing]

171. Well, Jehovah's Witnesses are headquartered in Brooklyn,

so you're going to have at least as many NY'ers not believing in evolution as there are Jehovah's Witnesses in NY.

[ThomCat]

183. That's true. We've got that damned

Watchtower building ruining the Brooklyn skyline. And old ladies giving out watchtower magazines at every transportation hub and almost every neighborhood bus stop.

[H2O Man]

175. I once had a co-worker

who liked the Red Sox. And I'm from New York, not Boston. What terrible thing has to happen to ywist the mind of a human being so that they like the Red Sox better than he Yankees?

[ThomCat]

184. My boss is from Boston, but is a Yankee fan.

His son, who used to work with us, was raised here in NY, but he's a fanatical Red Sox fan. Oh, you've never seen the end of it! :P

[LibertyorDeath]

182. Devolution

Devolution
Why intelligent design isn’t.
by H. Allen Orr

page 2

In “Darwin’s Black Box,” Behe maintained that irreducible complexity presents Darwinism with “unbridgeable chasms.” How, after all, could a gradual process of incremental improvement build something like a flagellum, which needs all its parts in order to work? Scientists, he argued, must face up to the fact that “many biochemical systems cannot be built by natural selection working on mutations.” In the end, Behe concluded that irreducibly complex cells arise the same way as irreducibly complex mousetraps—someone designs them. As he put it in a recent Times Op-Ed piece: “If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, then, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, we have warrant to conclude it’s a duck. Design should not be overlooked simply because it’s so obvious.” In “Darwin’s Black Box,” Behe speculated that the designer might have assembled the first cell, essentially solving the problem of irreducible complexity, after which evolution might well have proceeded by more or less conventional means. Under Behe’s brand of creationism, you might still be an ape that evolved on the African savanna; it’s just that your cells harbor micro-machines engineered by an unnamed intelligence some four billion years ago.

But Behe’s principal argument soon ran into trouble. As biologists pointed out, there are several different ways that Darwinian evolution can build irreducibly complex systems. In one, elaborate structures may evolve for one reason and then get co-opted for some entirely different, irreducibly complex function. Who says those thirty flagellar proteins weren’t present in bacteria long before bacteria sported flagella? They may have been performing other jobs in the cell and only later got drafted into flagellum-building. Indeed, there’s now strong evidence that several flagellar proteins once played roles in a type of molecular pump found in the membranes of bacterial cells.

Behe doesn’t consider this sort of “indirect” path to irreducible complexity—in which parts perform one function and then switch to another—terribly plausible. And he essentially rules out the alternative possibility of a direct Darwinian path: a path, that is, in which Darwinism builds an irreducibly complex structure while selecting all along for the same biological function. But biologists have shown that direct paths to irreducible complexity are possible, too. Suppose a part gets added to a system merely because the part improves the system’s performance; the part is not, at this stage, essential for function. But, because subsequent evolution builds on this addition, a part that was at first just advantageous might become essential. As this process is repeated through evolutionary time, more and more parts that were once merely beneficial become necessary. This idea was first set forth by H. J. Muller, the Nobel Prize-winning geneticist, in 1939, but it’s a familiar process in the development of human technologies. We add new parts like global-positioning systems to cars not because they’re necessary but because they’re nice. But no one would be surprised if, in fifty years, computers that rely on G.P.S. actually drove our cars. At that point, G.P.S. would no longer be an attractive option; it would be an essential piece of automotive technology. It’s important to see that this process is thoroughly Darwinian: each change might well be small and each represents an improvement.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/30/050530fa_fact

[Disturbed]

188. God is not an ape. That is why this Evolution Theory is

bogus.

[ThomCat]

192. Non sequitor.

Evolutionary theory has nothing to do with god. Belief in god (any god, in any form) has no impact on the science backing up evolution.

[and-justice-for-all]

194. god is not an ape...

but a figment of ones imagination, which requires thinking, which is an out come of Evolution development of the Human brain.

[blondie58]

189. wow- this is unbelievable

I get the feeling that she might have been home schooled- so that her parents could have controlled her every thought and what she learned.

and you are so right- she is probably just one of many in our great nation.

[bridgit]

199. everyone is entitled to their opinion...

[Disturbed]

201. Yeah but is everyone entitled to their own facts?

God is not an ape. That is a fact. God is a man with mysterious powers. Woman was fashioned from a man's rib. It's all written in God's book.

[trumad]

202. I want my Rib back

"I want my baby back, baby back, baby back, I want my baby back, baby back, baby back... "

[noonwitch]

209. I have a coworker who feels the same way-it's not worth arguing over

I don't know enough about science, and I have never read Darwin's actual writing, so I'm not going to argue with people about it.

[LanternWaste]

211. We had a parishioner at my church who believed the same thing

We had a parishioner at my church who believed the same thing. We were as stunned by the absurdity of it also. Although it took some time, we slowly convinced her to read both science and religious texts with a much broader world-view.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

213. No offense, but why should you care?

Like it or not, she's got a right to believe what she believes. To you and me, her position might jar with what you and most people believe to be the prevailing and factual scientific position on the issue. But just because she might think God made the world in 7 days about 4,000 years ago doesn't in and of itself do any harm to you.

My own religious beliefs tell me that upon saying a prayer, Jesus' presence comes into a piece of unleavened bread and wine. To most any non-Catholic that sounds pretty preposterous, and even saying it to myself, a long practicing Catholic, it sounds pretty crazy. But I choose to believe it anyway. Maybe I just like the idea of communion. Maybe I like the idea that there is more to the eye than just the natural world. I don't know. But my believing that isn't going to hurt anyone. A Jew believing that God parted the Red Sea for the Isrealites isn't going to hurt anyone. A Muslim believing the Prophet Mohhammed came down from a mountain with the Koran in his hands isn't going to hurt anyone. And an Evangelical literalist who believes the world was created in 7 days isn't going to hurt anyone. Now, very sadly there are people who believe these things and may themselves hurt others who don't believe the same way, but that's a different story all together. That's called intolerance, not faith.

Now, what I do have a problem with is teaching a religious belief--creationism--in public schools as an equal to evolution, which is a scientific theory. That cannot be accepted, as one is a product of the supernatural, and the other a product of the natural. And outside our churches, mosques, synagoges and temples, people aren't equipped to talk about the supernatural because it isn't something that can be intrinsicly proven. (Note I don't say that these things don't exist, I just say they cannot be proven. Which is the exact definition of faith.)

But unless this woman is the head of some powerful interest group trying to push creationism on our public school children, what bother is any of it to you? Let her think what she thinks, no matter how silly it might seem to you or me.

And for your idea that New Yorkers are so much smarter and higher-minded than the rest of the country, have you seen some of the folks at the bleachers at Yankee Stadium? :sarcasm:

[ourbluenation]

216. my husband is a progressive left leaner who's spirituality leads him to believe that there's a

divine hand guiding us. but he also believes in evolution. i'm okay with that.

[Disturbed]

220. "the world was created in 7 days"

I see that mistake a lot. God created the Universe in (6) days. He had to rest on the 7th day because that was hard work.

Most scientists agree that the Universe took billions of years to be formed. They obviously didn't read the Bible. God is a speedy guy.

[Dorian Gray]

223. Are you guys good friends?

Why the heck are you talking about evolution vs. Intelligent Design at work? At my work, I always avoided subjects like that. (Unless, of course, my co-workers and I were good friends and discussed things like that after work.)

[kitty1]

224. I believe God created the earth, does that make me insane n/t

[RiverStone]

225. Creationist explanation for dinosaur extinction!

[seabeyond]

226. my two degree college educated friend looking at university wall of evolution

denys evolution too. as our children stand around us, i am amazed she declared earth not more than 7000 yrs old and a musuem wall going back millions of years thru the formation of rock and earth.