Pentagon Sued Over Mandatory Christianity

[babylonsister]

Pentagon Sued Over Mandatory Christianity
By Jason Leopold
t r u t h o u t | Report

Tuesday 18 September 2007

A military watchdog organization filed a lawsuit in federal court Tuesday against the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and a US Army major, on behalf of an Army soldier stationed in Iraq. The suit charges the Pentagon with widespread constitutional violations by allegedly trying to force the soldier to embrace evangelical Christianity and then retaliating against him when he refused.

The complaint, filed in US District Court in Kansas City, by the nonprofit Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), on behalf of Jeremy Hall, an Army specialist currently on active duty in Speicher, Iraq, alleges that Hall's First Amendment rights were violated beginning last Thanksgiving when, because of his atheist beliefs, he declined to participate in a Christian prayer ceremony commemorating the holiday.

"Immediately after plaintiff made it known he would decline to join hands and pray, he was confronted, in the presence of other military personnel, by the senior ranking ... staff sergeant who asked plaintiff why he did not want to pray, whereupon plaintiff explained because he is an atheist," says the lawsuit, a copy of which was provided to Truthout. "The staff sergeant asked plaintiff what an atheist is and plaintiff responded it meant that he (plaintiff) did not believe in God. This response caused the staff sergeant to tell plaintiff that he would have to sit elsewhere for the Thanksgiving dinner. Nonetheless, plaintiff sat at the table in silence and finished his meal."

Moreover, the complaint alleges that on August 7, when Hall received permission by an Army chaplain to organize a meeting of other soldiers who shared his atheist beliefs, his supervisor, Army Major Paul Welborne, broke up the gathering and threatened to retaliate against the soldier by charging him with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The complaint also alleges that Welborne vowed to block Hall's reenlistment in the Army if the atheist group continued to meet - a violation of Hall's First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Welborne is named as a defendant in the lawsuit.

more...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091807R.shtml

[Richard Steele]

1. K&R

[Fuzz]

2. Why is this country going backward instead of forward?

It's really pissing me off.

[Arugula Latte]

89. Meanwhile, Europe is going forward...

leaving us far, far behind.

[liberation]

136. It took Europe a good thousand years to break free...

Hopefully this country won't have to go through the same length of crap and oppression before seeing the "light"

Most Europeans shaw the gig was up for religion when they started experiencing better living standards brought by peace and prosperity du to common sense and reason finally taking over religious and ideological traditions, that had brought nothing but destruction, pain and adversity for centuries.

The funny thing is that the better they were living in laic societies, the more them Euros would hear religious figures complaining about the "moral decay" of the societies. Europeans figures it was better to have peace and food on the table through moral decay, that being starving and fighting yet another war to make sure whatever "morality" that those religious assholes considered so precious was preserved. So yes, European made the connection that those religious and ideological figures had interests which were not necessarily in agreement with the interest of most the European population... so it was time to politely giving these assholes the middle finger.

The Catholic church is finally ridding the sunset into irrelevancy, choosing an ex hitler youth as their leader did not help making most Europeans feel sorry for their demise. In the same sense having the Church of England heralded by a bunch of perverts heirs to a dynasty of degenerates makes their same ride into irrelevancy the more enjoyable. I personally consider funny to see these religious figures throw their tantrums once people realize the scammers that they are and decide to go on with their lives. "Fire, and brimstone will come from the sky if you don't do what I tell you..." Fine whatever old man...

[bdamomma]

113. they will do anything to keep the people under their control.

thus recruiting Iraqi detainees to accept Christianity, this is a ideologues war.

[dickbearton]

139. The country is going backward because of the Criminal Bush...

And the Republican Nazi Party.

[tom_paine]

140. Back to 1933, 1775, and 1490, in that order

I can only think with disgust and pity for the poor human beings alive in 2100 or 2200.

It's beyond nationality, now.

[NancyBreen]

145. Amen (not meant in a religious way)

[FormerDittoHead]

3. Have you seen "Breach" about the CIA? (based upon a true story) Scary.

The movie makes the CIA into almost like a fucking monastery. Great idea until you have one of the true believers sell secrets to the Ruskies and we lose like 50 agents...

My father said the CIA wasn't interested in his application because he was a Jew - I think he may have been right.
(this would have been in the 1940/50's, BTW).

[gateley]

8. I'd venture that there still aren't many Jews in the CIA -- except where that

would most benefit them. What year is it, anyway?

[MetalCanuck]

100. The CIA

is a catholic organization so no there are probably very few
Jews in that outfit. 

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

9. Well, any indocrination-controlled entity is frightening because it's exclusive.

It's also ANTI-democracy or equal justice or, frankly,...common human decency.

[democrat2thecore]

12. Great movie (but it was about the FBI and Robert Hanssen)

Chris Cooper was absolutely incredible in his role playing Hanssen.

[FormerDittoHead]

19. I stand corrected (although I'm thinking it's a difference without a distinction).

I must say that I guess I walked away with the "CIA" in my head because it was all about foreign intelligence.

I didn't think that the FBI did foreign stuff...

[democrat2thecore]

24. He was a rogue agent accepting HUGE bucks from the Soviets to spy

And then, even later, from the Russians. He was actually put in charge of the investigation to find the spy (himself)!

That movie was excellent. A must-see!

Here's more on Hanssen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen



edit to include wikipedia entry.

[EVDebs]

104. Opus Dei, and budding SMOM (?) on his way up it seems

At least he knew where the power lies.

[aquart]

72. Chris Cooper is routinely incredible.

[EVDebs]

103. SMOM keeps a pretty tight ship

Their Will Be Done
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

SMOM was there from the creation. Authoritarian policy is their forte and the will of the people, that's the hoi polloi, isn't to be allowed even a hearing.

[redqueen]

135. Did it talk about Operation Paperclip?

Cause... that would explain a LOT.

[Cha]

146. Yeah, robert hansen..a big opus diem

asshole right up there with freeh or whatever the hell his name is.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

4. I'd say this is incredible,...except it's not. There were mandatory prayer meetings,...

,...on a "local" level that blew me away while serving in a position subject to that mandate.

I wondered: how is this consistent with separation of church and state?

It wasn't. I couldn't do a damn thing about it,...unless I was prepared to lose my means of providing food/clothing/shelter.

There are things that have/are/will happen in this country NO ONE WILL TALK ABOUT.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. I hate to tell you but there are public schools which flaunt their

Christian faith on the field of play.

[aquart]

73. Yeah. We called my high school St. Francis on the Expressway.

Francis Lewis, a public high school, not a catholic school. Hard to tell, though. That was over forty years ago. Perhaps it has improved.

[bos1]

59. Been hearing about this for a couple years, that

before there was very little emphasis on religion in the military, but in the last few years a sort of overt, frank litmus test going on. The fact that this has filtered down to such a low level indicates to me that at the upper levels there might be some hardcore Christian mafia stuff going on.

[krispos42]

94. That's how the Bushies are going to get the miiltary to attack Iran

Remove all the secular constitutionalist senior officers and replace them with rapture-ready Bush savants. This way, because it's also their Christian as well as sworn duty to attack Iran, they won't refuse to follow orders.

[dickbearton]

141. The Criminal Bush is perverting the military...

Just like he perverted the Justice Department. The
Christofascist have turned the Republican Party into the new
Nazi Party.

[krispos42]

151. No argument from me!

Check this out...

The 14 Points of Fascism
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2

The 14 Points of Fascism, with examples
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[kestrel91316]

5. When I run things, the most obnoxious of the christofascists are going to

be first in line for the sharp steel head separator.

I, for one, have had QUITE ENOUGH of this crap.

[gateley]

6. K&R. I hope Specialist Hall wins big -- and lives to see it happen. nt

[Synnical]

7. More: US soldier sues Defense Department over religious freedom

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/18/america/NA-GEN-US-Military-Religion-Lawsuit.php

FORT RILEY, Kansas: A U.S. Army soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and an Army major, saying his right to religious freedom was violated.

The lawsuit filed Monday in federal court alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military.

According to the filing, Spec. Jeremy Hall received permission to distribute flyers around his base in Iraq for a meeting of atheists and non-Christians. When he tried to convene the meeting, Hall says, Maj. Paul Welborne stepped in, threatening to file military charges against Hall and block his reenlistment.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is helping with the lawsuit, said it is the first of many to come.

"We're going to expose the pernicious practice and pattern of these massive violations of the Constitution," Weinstein said. "That we had to go to this extent is just a heinous disgrace that defies any possible explanation."

. . .

[Supersedeas]

93. freedom to practice religion/nonreligion is only a right when the 'correct' religion is practiced,

i guess

[NYVet]

168. Only one problem

There is no Army Major named Paul Welborne listed in AKO White Pages (The US Army e-mail system).



And before you ask, ALL soldiers are required to have an e-mail account in AKO.

[stillcool]

10. sounds like a cult..

mind-control, brain-washing...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

11. Not all,...but certainly the parts that SERVE the corporacrat masters,...

,...serving in order to make as much money as possible in as short a time as necessary.

Yes. These are cultists.

[stillcool]

15. it makes sense...

from a Catholic School/AA perspective. No coloring out of the lines.

[smirkymonkey]

21. Jesus loves bombs.

:nuke:

[bdamomma]

116. it is, these are very sick psychotic people between the neo cons

and these religious fanatics we have some very sick people abusing things.

[Fridays Child]

13. k/r

[malaise]

14. This is madness

I hope he collects big time

[cosmik debris]

18. Yes it is madness, but

It is also standard operating procedure. If you have ever been close to the military, you probably know how "madness" and "standard operating procedure" can coincide.

[eppur_se_muova]

16. Obey all orders from superiors and don't question the official version.

RWChristianity and the military follow the same rules, it's no wonder they're in bed with each other.

[dickbearton]

142. Add the Neocon Nazi and the Fascist Corporatist and...

You have the axis of evil. Now you can see why it will be so
hard; if not impossible to take back America. Only the Boston
Tea Party can restore America.

[fenriswolf]

17. r&k

Speaking as an army vet who served in the Iraqi war I would not really bar reenlistment as a punishment although I’m sure some people will view it as such. This is a travesty and horrifying as well. Horrifying as in if this is a trend and the trend is getting worse what happens till the army and evangelicals are one and the same? I mean is it just me or does the 20th century seem more like the 8th century (beware, not good on ancient dates) when the crusades happened? Lets compare shall we?


Crusade // iraq war

Battle ground: middle east / middle east
bloodshed: bloody genocide / secratarian violence and massive civilian casualties
looting: holy objects and anything of personal worth / national assets and resources
why?: for god / for god and country
how do we stop it: finally driven out of the country / …….good question

[tblue37]

38. The Crusades started at the end of the 11th century.There were several over the next

couple centuries.

[fenriswolf]

43. right

concerning history i pay more attention to the topics and actions then the dates like i posted but thanks for the heads up.

[EVDebs]

105. Jesus wasn't into real estate, and the best thing to happen to Christianity is

losing the Crusades. Check out Forcing God's Hand by Grace Halsell and End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg for more on 'what really happened'.

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. Could somebody please explain this obsessive need to be a missionary

in the Evangelical and Southern Baptist religion? Do they get points with God for the souls they win over? Or does it go beyond religion and is it more of a political desire to get everyone on the same page with them?

[Chulanowa]

23. "The treasures of heaven"

Evangelicals believe they will be rewarded on a basis of how many souls they "save". Oh, they'll all go to heaven, it's just that they believe the people who work really hard to convert as many heathens as possible will get better duds and closer to God's ear. Their concept of "Heaven" is wealth and power over others with the acknowledgment of God backing them up on it.

I personally find missionaries and avid proselytizers of all strypes to be some of the deepest bunch of scum that humanity has to offer.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. Is this an opinion or do you have a link to something substantive?

"Their concept of "Heaven" is wealth and power over others with the acknowledgment of God backing them up on it."

And does it apply to Southern Baptists too?

Weren't Southern Baptist at once discredited because they believed in slavery and so they had a rift with the Northern Baptists on whether they even qualified as missionaries?

[Occulus]

35. That statement applies to all religions which include an exclusive, paradisaical afterlife n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Actually, that wouldn't be true of old world Catholics.

Catholicism has concepts that are closer to socialism than Protestants here in America would like us to practice. In latin America, twenty years ago, the church was pretty good at creating an environment that encouraged the rich TO TAKE CARE OF THE POOR. Crazy concept, eh? But the corrupting power of capitalism and money, pretty much has put a stopper on that.

Well, not completely, I guess, since Catholic organizations that were involved with poverty issues, apparently were one of the ones who had their rights abused with the NSA illegal wiretapping.

[pingzing58]

92. It's the well founded principle of "subsidiarity" in the Catholic Church.

[JDPriestly]

143. Traditionally Methodists have also been extremely active socially.

John Wesley was a social reformer. Unitarians are probably not considered "Christian" but they are also very active with regard to social issues. The Salvation Army is also very involved in humanitarian help. The Seventh Day Adventists sponsor wonderful hospitals. So, the Catholics are not the only social activists in recent times, but they have been very active (except with regard to women's issues and related family issues) and are, as you mention, to be commended for that. I think that the Methodists and Catholics are less active than they were in the past. And, of course, they are both backward on the issue of homosexuality. The United Church of Christ (at least the churches I know) and the Episcopal Church are more active in acknowledging the rights of homosexuals. This is just based on my experience. I am not an expert. I think it is important to say this because not all "Christians" or religious people can be painted with the same brush. Give credit where credit is due. This does not detract from the fact that religious extremists are attracted to organizations in which they can impose their authoritarian ideas, organizations like the military.

[Bryn]

41. Also there are TV evangelicals who are Obscene Wealthy

by suckering money from people


from ministrywatch:

EVANGELISTS WHO BETRAY JESUS


J. Grant Swank, Jr. (ArriveNet Editorials - Sep 01, 2007) -- Do you give to the following ministries: African Children Welfare Foundation, Benny Hinn Ministries, Bible Broadcasting Network, Children’s Survival Fund, Crystal Cathedral Ministries, Good News Behind the News, Joy of Jesus, Inc., Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Kenneth Hagin Ministries, TD Jakes Ministries?

These, and others, get F grade from TransparencyWatch.com when it comes to being financially reliable. Check it out http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/tw1102.pdf .

“Ministrywatch revealed that Trinity Broadcasting sits on a $340 million cash hoard, and owns houses in an exclusive Orange County, Calif., community hidden behind very regal gates.

“They control one mansion worth about $4 million, and an even bigger one — over 10,000 square feet — that's worth about $6 million. The Crouches also travel the world in a jet worth a reported $7 million.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My mother believes that giving money to them is her ticket to heaven because those evangelicals told her so. I really wish to SUE them! She gets $900+ per month and gives average of $300 to Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Trinity Broadcasting, etc. per month! I moved in to look after her and help with money for food, supplies, electricity, cable, etc. It seems to me, the more I help, the more money she thinks she can give to THEM. I went to talk to my sister about this problem, but she confessed that she gave $1,000 to Kenneth Copeland so she was NO HELP! Can't they see that it is NOT a ticket to heaven. :grr:

"I personally find missionaries and avid proselytizers of all strypes to be some of the deepest bunch of scum that humanity has to offer." I agree!

[knitter4democracy]

80. I'm so sorry.

She should never give more than a tithe ($90) in her position, and even that some would argue against. Money given to them is meaningless to God, it is as filthy rags in His sight (Isaiah 64:6: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."). Giving money means nothing to salvation.

[Bzzzz]

51. My Aunt and Uncle...

are missionaries on a Indian reservation in Arizona. Every year they come back home to a "large" family and do their song and dance routine begging for money. I, and many in our family find this offensive. I do not contribute and never will. They had a beautiful log home built for them by the Indians on the reservation and these same Indians were living in mobile homes without the most basic amenities.

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. I feel for you.

If they aren't giving back to that community, then they are nothing more than snakeoil salesmen.

[knitter4democracy]

81. Which Rez? Where?

I wonder if they're the couple I met in college.

[knitter4democracy]

77. Not in my experience.

I grew up in an evangelical church, went to an evangelical college, and even went on several mission trips.

It's about the Great Commission at the end of the Gospel of St. Matthew. All Christians are to spread the faith, since Jesus told us to before He went back up into Heaven. It's out a desire that none see the fires of Hell, not about getting more in Heaven (theologically wrong, very wrong).

Then there are some who feel a call to missions. It doesn't matter where they are or what their jobs are, they are to share the faith and develop relationships with as many people as they can. It's about doing what God's called them to do, not about rewards or wealth but instead following God's will.

All will be equal in Heaven according to any of the evangelical churches I know.

[TalkingDog]

63. Bible Belt S. Baptist here ...well not me, but most everybody around me....

I don't know what Chulanowa is talking about, but S. Baptist believe that
"witnessing" i.e. proselytizing to others about the truth of Christ's love and the redemption he offers is just about the most important mission a true Christian has.

See...the Catholic Church tells you every whit and jot of what to believe. Southern Baptists follow Martin Luther's idea of : Scripture alone and justification by faith alone.

So if the Church doesn't tell you, somebody has to "spread the word", "share the good news", "speak the gospel truth". And in all honesty, there are people who have been utterly concerned for my potential afterlife when they find out I'm not a Christian. They sincerely don't want me to burn in the Hell they believe I'm going to; even though they have known me to be a good person (up to this point). It's not condescending in those cases, it's misguided concern.

On the other hand, I've run into the holier-than-thou types as often, if not more so, than the concerned "friends".

I just tell them that either their god is very small and powerless if he is threatened by somebody like me, "Or is it," I say, "that you lack faith in his ability to deal with this one small sinner?".

That will usually get me a glare and a thin-lipped grimace while they work out whether they should keep talking.



My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[LibertyLover]

85. It's rooted in what Christians refer to as "The Great Commission"

Matthew 28, verses 16-20

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in <1> the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

The heart of it is verse 19 - "go therefore and make disciples of all nations". From that, Christians down the ages believed that it is their duty to preach the Christianity to all peoples of all nations, making the whole world Christian. Depending on the "flavor" of Christianity, the results of that belief differ. I have spoken to Evangelicals who believe that it isn't until every person in the whole world has been given the opportunity to accept or reject Christ, that Jesus will come again. Therefore, by proselytizing they are hastening his return. And they are fanatical about it.

[Castleman]

86. Oh, it's quite simple, especially in Iraq...

Once you're a hardcore Christian, you get to feel GOOD about killing heathens! You know that every Iraqi man, woman and child you kill is making you one step closer to being just like Jesus! And isn't that a SPECIAL feeling? Knowing you've destroyed countless thousands of Islamic heretics? I mean, they were all going to hell because they're non-white and non-beleivers, you just helped them along their journey!
That's what being a good Christian is all about in the military, being a part of the Crusade to rid the world of all the heathens.

WHO JUST HAPPEN TO BE SITTING ON THE WORLD'S LARGEST OIL RESERVES!
Notice we don't seem to be worried about the heathens in Indonesia?

[Posteritatis]

160. Prolly varies from person to person, but

I know a lot of them who are into the whole missionary thing not for their own sake, but because they truly and sincerely believe they are attempting to save others from eternal damnation.

It's not always political silliness or self-serving things or whatever. A lot of it might be, the louder ones like these dumbasses who try to punish people for not believing might be, the guys in this article definitely are, but there's a whole lot of Christians out there who believe that successfully winning converts is the kindest, most helpful thing that it's possible for a human on this planet to accomplish. There's a reason a lot of Christians use the word "saved" as much as they might say "born again" or simply "converted." I sure as hell don't credit the major and sergeant from this article with that mindset, but I have seen it many times.

I happen not to share that belief - I'm agnostic, with some humanist beliefs that would probably outrage half this board, never mind the Southern Baptists - but I can respect it when I see it genuinely held in others. (Besides, the ones who Get It tend to be far better, both in the tact sense and the effectiveness sense, with how they go about proselytizing.)

[Jacobin]

22. Its the TaliBornAgains versus the Taliban

in this war.

Count me fucking out

[paparush]

27. Thank God! Er...um...what I mean is...thank goodness! That's better.

[The Wizard]

53. Thank Zeus

I'm a Democrat.

[hack89]

28. 20 years in the navy as an atheist

and I never had a problem. My brother, also an atheist, spend 4 years in the Army without a problem. I have no doubt this incident happened but I question the idea that this a a common occurrence.

[Maat]

32. I'm glad you didn't have a problem.

However, what I wanted to say is that I'm a proud monthly donor to www.au.org (Americans United for Separation of Church and State), and am familiar with Mikey Weinstein's work. He comes from a long line of military officers, and his children (and some of their spouses) are also in the military (I believe it's the Air Force Academy that many Weinstein members have attended). Anyway, Mikey is both an attorney, and a member of A.U. He recently went out and founded his own organization (centered on military religious freedom) because he received so many complaints about this sort of thing (his own son was a victim of it). So, anyway, that's the story. He is now focusing on one case, in order to try to address the problem. Mikey is aware of some small groups in the military pushing this thing.

[Occulus]

36. I think you ought to read

this.

[hack89]

48. The military is a big organization

you can't look at what happens in a very small part of it and extrapolate it to every ship, to every platoon, to every squadron. My work brings me in contact with many senior officers - my experience is that they are no more religious then the general public and their beliefs encompass the entire religious spectrum.

[EVDebs]

107. And Bush quizzed Chirac about Gog and Magog, futurist (Left Behind)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091807G.shtml

re End Times stuff.

[fenriswolf]

44. when did you get out?

when did you leave hack? i was honorably discharged in aug 04' and i noticed it start ramping up even then, even when i was in the desert i somehow got handed a panphlet to attend a prayer meeting. And from other news sources the hits just keep coming. USO tours sponcered by churches and what not I mean when your base is religious fundamentalists and you wanna keep the military under your control what do you do?? put 1+1 together?

[hack89]

50. I work with the military every day

as a contractor. I don't see it - perhaps the culture of the Navy is different.

[nealmhughes]

129. Navy chaplains are the equivalent of English "fox hunting vicars."

I would wager most of them have a terrific golf/tennis game, to boot! It seems that the UMC, the UCC and the Episcopal Church and ECLA predominate in Protestant Navy chaplain circles, while the RC ones are "cool", "modern Catholics."

It appears that the exact opposite is in effect in the USA and especially the USAF.

Six years in the Navy and I never once recall anyone discussing religion, except to mock the "pious."

[hack89]

144. There was many a Sunday

when I had duty and had to keep the chaplain company because no one showed up for services.

[Sabriel]

29. It's equally disturbing that the sergeant had to ask what atheist meant.

WTF? How could you not have run across that word before?

[me b zola]

30. k&r

[earth mom]

31. This country is getting more f-ed up by the minute.

:scared:

[tritsofme]

33. I stopped reading when I saw who the author was.

Too bad, it the headline was interesting.

[SidDithers]

40. Here's the AP version...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/18/america/NA-GEN-US-Military-Religion-Lawsuit.php

Sid

[Ratty]

34. Now now. What about unit cohesiveness?

Remember, the military is special and not subject to all constitutional protections. Soldiers may not criticize the commander in chief, for example; they're not subject to the same freedom of speech protections as civilians. These men have to live together in very tight circumstances. An atheist would be a real downer during the nightly barracks prayer meeting and bible study. What, are they expected to share a foxhole with a known atheist? Or G*d forbid shower with one??! :sarcasm:

[tblue37]

37. Good. These Christian Dominionists need to be stopepd. n/t

[pepperbear]

39. HELL FUCKIN' YEAH! n/t

[hang a left]

42. Leopold is back at Truthout!!??!!

Good on you Jason. I never doubted you. You got fucked big time. KKKarl got KKKovered.

[thereismore]

78. I don't think he ever left. nt

[hang a left]

87. Oh yes he did.

I don't think that he was forced to leave. Because Truth-Out had his back 150% percent.

He did take a hiatus, at least I thought so anyway.

I don't ever visit truth out, only when there is a link to a story from here.

I never doubted him. Sealed vs Sealed and all.

[fenriswolf]

45. all i gotta say is what if

the top echlon of commanders was infiltrated with the same kind of zealotry that seems to be seeping from the religious repubs? can anyone say armegedon?

[hootinholler]

57. That's why I find the Barksdale story so disturbing.

The infiltration at the AF Academy is severe.

-Hoot

[Eric J in MN]

46. This is happening in America. Fort Riley is in Kansas.

AP article about this:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-military-religion-lawsuit,0,3548630.story

[Eric J in MN]

56. My mistake. The incident was in Iraq. NT

NT

[mrady]

47. Pentagon Sued Over Mandatory Christianity

Hi,
does anyone know how to contact Jeremy Hall?

Would like to put a small donation towards his defence fund.


Martin

http://atheists.meetup.com/501/

[Blue Gardener]

49. Since when is Thanksgiving a christian holiday?

Do the religious nuts have to steal every holiday? They even take the fun out of Halloween with their anti-abortion haunted houses.

[noamnety]

55. I found religion in basic training

because the alternative to going to church was scrubbing toilets.

Now they didn't actually come out and say it that way, that the atheists had to scrub everyone's shit. But it just kind of happened that toilet scrubbing was scheduled for Sunday mornings, and those who wanted to go to church were excused from duty so they could go attend services.

I'd never attended a church in my life, my parents raised me as an atheist, but in basic training I was a devout southern baptist.

[FooFootheSnoo]

62. me too

I was lucky to be Catholic. We didn't have mass until 11am. We were allowed to stay in the barracks and lounge until it was time to go to church. Those who had earlier services were put to work as soon as they got back from church. Those who didn't go were put to work at 7am.

I would like to add that when I was in basic(years and years ago), the chaplains were very nice and never mentioned religion in talking with the individual soldiers unless the soldier brought it up. They never led a group prayer in the field. They did give us information about when and where we could go to church. To me they seemed more like counselors or support people, not preachers or missionaries.

[theredpen]

79. The difference between a chaplain and a preacher...

Is that a chaplain serves the individual... all faiths and none. It is a violation of chaplain ethics to proselytize.

This is why the soldier in the story went to the chaplain to establish an atheist group, because it's the chaplain's job to cater to whatever religious beliefs or non-beliefs that the soldiers find inspiring. It sounds like the chaplain did his or her duty in this case and set up the regular meetings and that the commanding officers didn't "get it."

Evangelism is a growing problem in the military and these days, even many chaplains are not performing their proper role.

[Steven_S]

64. I scrubbed the toilets....

It was December '75. Go to the Chapel at Lackland AFB or clean the bathroom.

It was an easy choice.

[Dukkha]

82. i think i would've chosen the toilets

The shit there wouldn't have stank as bad as force fed christian dogma

[Q3JR4]

126. Ditto.... n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

150. I'd rather scrub a toilet...nt

[PDenton]

58. I do not know the specifics...

... however soldiers do not have the same rights that civilians do. You do not have the right to engage in actions that hurt a units morale and cohesion. An atheist could potentially be disruptive to the morale of a unit. He should have just held their hands, that's my opinion. It's not totally cool and supporting his first ammendment rights but the military is no place for activism, especially now that they are at war.

[FlaGranny]

67. Your words slightly altered

. however soldiers do not have the same rights that civilians do. You do not have the right to engage in actions that hurt a units morale and cohesion. A homosexual could potentially be disruptive to the morale of a unit. He should have just held his secret, that's my opinion. It's not totally cool and supporting his first ammendment rights but the military is no place for activism, especially now that they are at war.

IMHO day one of training should be about acceptance your fellow soldiers and their right to be who they are, without judgment. If they can't accept another person because he doesn't have the same beliefs, they are too prejudiced to be allowed to carry weapons.

[peacetalksforall]

69. Fantastic! The reality is so obvious. "If they can't accept another person because

he doesn't have the same beliefs, they are too prejudiced to be allowed to carry weapons."

This is the blunt truth and reality of the situation.

Prejudice is definitely part of the problem in Iraq and at the Pentagon.

In Iraq: The persons who have superiority in their heads see an enemy in young girls, villages, and babies are as nothing. Able bodied men are for games labeled as military intelligence and fly-arounds (the world).

In the U.S: We, the people, are the enemy and the view of us as enemies comes from organized world control barons and organized soul and social control reverends and crazed militarists and politicians.

And lobbyists and their ceo's reap it all in. Politicians (some) embrace it for votes.

[PDenton]

95. I think you are painting the military with a broad brush

Not all those guys over in Iraq are jackboots. All of them have a very difficult job. If you are angry about the Iraq war, blame the civilian leadership, not the military.

[peacetalksforall]

106. Sorry, I didn't go into my usual rant I am very anti-brass. I support the

troops even to the point of want understand or forgive those who are carried away with the environment of their military orders or what they interpreted as what their leaders wanted the to do. I abhor those in the brass who refuse to acknowledge what they are doing. And, even within the brass, I am learning that they are not all in the same boat.

My anger was sparked on the evening in 2000 when Bennett and the Bushes in smirked arrogance told us that they had the military vote.

I may never forgive the brass who became corporatist and political. Despicable.

I was raised to accept the military for the defense they provided. I never voted for any leaders who guide our military to participate in imperialistic plunder, rape, chemical anf fire atrocities, and pillage.

[PDenton]

111. Democrats in the military

... are increasingly rare, but you find them mostly in the enlisted or the medical/psych branches. The officers are generally Republicans. They like people that talk tough, even though many of them are overconfident chicken-shits and yes-men.

I grew up a military brat, that's my experience. I'm ambivalent about the military actually. On the one hand, they have a very difficult job that few civilians understand, especially now in a time of war. People in the military on the whole are much more disciplined and there is a refreshing lack of the petty crap that often happens in the civilian world. The people generally act like adults, or they get kicked out. Most of the enlisted people I knew that worked with my dad were great people. Contrary to the perception on the board, the religious nuts were the exception more than the norm, though most people went to some kind of church or the base chapel.

On the other hand... The military life is very hard on families. Military personel do not get paid anything close to their civilian counterparts, so you end up living relatively poor compared to your status as a civilian family would be. The officers in particular get a big dose of bullshit as part of their status, and I blame the military for turning my dad into the Great Santini, without the alcoholism. Truth is he was already halfway there before he joined. My dad was emotionally distant most of the time, an unloving father who rarely said anything good about anybody, and treated us like his airmen- it was especially hard in the teenage years. Now my dad wants to be my pal all the time and he doesn't get it- he had his chance, I find it hard to be close to a man who was constantly tearing me down when I was most vulnerable.

[PDenton]

96. I'm just talking about reality, not the way some people wish it would be

A persons conduct, even their personal life in the military, unlike civilian life, is very much open for critique and repremand if necessary. For instance, adultery in the military is a crime that is punished because the behavior is often disruptive to units and the military communities. The US military has a very important mission and any behaviors that detract from the effectiveness of the military, however small, are open to scrutiny. It is not the same as the civilian world and should not have the same rules.

I'm not necessarily saying gays shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military but even countries that do, such as the UK, have rules clearly stating that a persons conduct cannot be detrimental to morale or cohesion of units and unbecomming. It is part of the militaries tradition that they don't operate under the same rules as civilians. That's why they have their own legal system which is seperate from the ones civilians use.

[sofa king]

68. That's right.

But you have it backwards. The unit does not have the right to damage unit cohesion by singling out and violating the rights of atheists. When a unit does isolate its atheists it is sending a message to all members that they are vulnerable if they fail to meet arbitrary criteria which have nothing whatsoever to do with duty or honor.

Our armed forces is a direct reflection of our sectarian society. Violate that sectarianism, and you're certain to start peeling off atheists, then religious minorities, then political minorities, and so on until a unit becomes a mere plurality of "accepted" soldiers surrounded by a majority of outcasts. And then everything goes in the shitter, because it's every man for himself after that.

[PDenton]

97. so, you want to kick out all the chaplains?

Religion really is a part of military life. Not officially but for most people in the military they are religious to some extent. It just goes with the territory. I do believe the military should make provisions for non-believers, but lets not go out and bash the military for the hell of it. They aren't Christian brownshirts, at least the ones I met.

[Deep13]

117. Yes. James Madison who wrote the main Constitution...

...including Article 6 as well as the First Amendment was plainly horrified by the idea of official chaplains on the public payroll.

Religious elements in our society should not be using our otherwise secular government to indoctrinate young servicemen with superstition from a position of authority. If the various churches or whatever want to send representatives of their clergy, let them do it on their own dime.

[whopis01]

132. Religion shouldn't have to be part of military life.

There should be no state enforced / state run / state mandated / state promoted religion.

[Thothmes]

152. military life

So your position is that only atheists should be recruited for the armed forces of the United States. That an individual with a religious background should be barred from the service?

[TommyO]

71. Yes, soldiers give up certain rights, but the right to their own faith, or no faith

is not one of them. Why should he be forced to participate in a non-combat related activity that goes against his beliefs?

[fenriswolf]

98. the military is the biggest melting pot of all

the military or at least my unit was comprised of people all of the country and from other countries, some even just had their green card. All different kinds of religins too. In basic we had this huge guy who was a self described "pagen" and he would always "pray" before obstacle courses, baynet course, pt test, etc. I never had a problem with this and neither did my buddies, some laughed a little but i could have cared less. Why should this be different for someone who just doesnt wanna pray? why shoudl they people who have decided to /kick religion have to fake it? I am an agnostic, I neither believe nor disbelieve nor do I care about religion when in comes to spirituality. IMHO the man was well within his rights to decline because he wanted to be true to himself and not fake.

[Deep13]

114. See post #122.

First, soldiers are citizens, not slaves.

Second, if the war or the army goes against the Constitution, then the war and the army are wrong, not the Constitution.

This is a secular goverment. What the fuck does praying to an imaginary sky daddy have to do withfighting a war?

[happyslug]

60. As to the Thanksgiving event I see the Courts upholding it.

"Unit Cohesion" is a concept the military wants to encourage. If that means people doing things TOGETHER then the courts will uphold such actions as the Military upholding "Unit Cohesion". Military formations are pseudo-Religious in nature and always have been. In pre-Christian time the Standard or Unit flag was treated as a god (In post-Christian times it is treated as a symbol of the unit, it was no longer a god, but the ceremony involving it remained basically the same). Given this background if the Military states HOW the Thanksgiving dinner was done, including holding hands and singing, is part of unit cohesion, he will lose on that count for the Courts do NOT want to interfere with how the Military runs its units.

I is another story ss to the breaking up of the meeting of atheist and threating them. First the Chaplain set up the meeting (According to the article). Thus it is "religious" in nature and the military has to keep its hands from favoring one religion or another (Including Atheism). Given the Chaplain set this up, it should be covered by whatever overall military regulation that govern "Religious" meetings. The Military can step in and stop anything the Military believes hurts "discipline" but given that the persons setting up this meeting went through his Chaplain the burden will be on the Commander to show how it hurts discipline.

Basically I see the Courts supporting the Air Force position as to the Thanksgiving Dinner, but breaking up the meeting was clearly illegal unless the person who broke it up can show HOW it hurt Discipline.

[PianoBlack]

61. As both a human being and a Christian....

I am disgusted by this. Forcing a group to disband and threatening them just because they do not believe the same thing you do? That is ridiculous! And more power to Jeremy for standing up for his rights!!

[classof56]

84. Welcome to DU! I like what you've said.

I too am a Christian and it's gotten very hard for me to accept what many of my fellow Christians are doing lately that goes so counter to Christ's message. Back when I was in school (okay, about a hundred years ago) we were taught that my rights end where yours begin, and as a Baptist I was taught to lovingly share Christ's love and redemption and make people want to accept him. This unloving, shove-it-down-the-throat mentality so prevalent nowadays produces the exact opposite result and frankly disgusts the heck outa me. I now feel like the man who said to Jesus, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief!"

Tired Old Cynic

[PianoBlack]

101. Thank you...

It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I was not raised in a church...nor was I raised to believe in God. I found my faith...and I went to a lot of different churches. Most of them taught the shove-it-down-the-throat mentality and it always felt wrong. I hope to teach my children different...when I have them at least.

[Ezlivin]

65. There are no atheists in foxholes

Because they are on the field fighting.

The Christians are the ones in the foxholes.

[peacetalksforall]

66. I believe the rrrr really religious right grooms their people for every

level of civic state federal government and corporate position. They are infiltrating (populating) every aspect of our lives that involves policy and control. They are the perfect partner for the barons. They have control in common. Whether on school boards or in appeals courts, prison guards and wardens, security firms (Wackenhut Blackwater) or as attorneys for the court, judges at all levels, or as journalists, editors, anchors, or at work in the Justice Dept or the FBI or the RNC or at desk, counter, or police jobs for the county. So why not the military ranks?

Christians in all the right places for God and 'heaven'.
Jews in all the right places -at government headquarters- for Israel.
There appear to be no glass ceilings for either in today's world.

So thinking ahead to what is shaping up -
are they the source for soldiers who will enforce the martial law that may be coming?
Or wll the soldiers be corporate employees? Or will they be foreigners (giving employment to the Africans that George Bush referred to)?

I want to know how the church involves itself in the vote of the military.

My most precious possession - my vote.
My second most precious possession - separation of church and state.

Have you ever considered whether the Mormons have been approached to share their data for the spy-on-us-Poindexter databases that Congress voted to move forward with in the name of terrorism - as in the fight on terrorism?

[yardwork]

83. I'm very concerned about this, too.

Even here on DU, I see regular posts from people complaining that any criticism of any Christian is the same as "bashing" or disrespecting Christians. Anyone who isn't Christian is considered to be automatically in the wrong. It's a frightening mindset.

[Mnemosyne]

70. Circle Jerks - Killing For Jesus

Circle Jerks Killing For Jesus

Lyrics
All across the world
The holy armies on a tear
Ripping through the planet's faiths
Population's running scared
Christianity's all around
Zealots they abound
I wanna blow them to pieces
Cause I...I'm


Killing For Jesus
Killing For Jesus

With god on my side
The holy armies gonna ride
Go on a rampage
To rape, plunder and pillage
Insanity's everywhere
Must be something in the air
I wanna blow them to pieces
cause I...I'm



I'm never bored
When I'm killing for the lord
Now I've seen the light
Hail Mary! I've got Jesus on my side!

Insanity's everywhere
Must be something in the air
I wanna blow them to pieces
cause I...I'm...



It's great fun to drive past large gatherings near fundy churches and blast it out my car windows. :evilgrin:

[Joanne98]

74. There shouldn't be anything but atheists in the military!

[LibDemAlways]

75. The military is an organization in which killing other

human beings is sometimes required and, at the least, often considered justified. It's far from a Christian organization on principle alone. How could anyone even suggest some sort of religious litmus apply to an organization that is the complete anthesis of religious values?

The athiest soldier should sue the pants off these morons.

[fenriswolf]

108. true

i agree in fact would it be wrong to call any christian serving in the military a hypocrite as one of the fundamental job descriptions is being able to kill someone for your country while one of the fundamental ideals of the christian faith (aka the ten commandments) is thou shalt not kill?

[LibDemAlways]

121. I wouldn't go so far as to call people of faith serving in

the military hypocrites. It's up to the individual to decide for him/herself if the job description squares with his/her religious or moral beliefs.

I do know, however, that the military is not a religious organization, and there should be no religious pressure brought to bear on any soldier.

[fenriswolf]

123. i agree

on that i agree, just making an observation that when it comes to most religious docterine killing another person for any reason is right out, but then again i guess their is already loads of existing hypocracy in alot of religions already, but im not gonna get into that.

[theredpen]

76. Wiccans are harrassed a lot

Wicca is the fastest growing religion in the US military and if you think atheists get a hard time...

[Deep13]

118. I know it. That is wrong too.

I can just hear them saying "suffer not a witch to live."

[TechBear_Seattle]

88. Why is the Army persecuting Christians?

I mean, ONLY Christians are persecuted, as any right wing religious nut will be happy to tell you at length.

:sarcasm:

[Gamey]

90. Did they pray for another fake turkey from *?

[McCamy Taylor]

91. A good Christian should make the worst soldier. Army is FOS.

[varun]

99. Wasnt the Airforce Academy sued for religious discrimination?

What happened to that case?

It seems like the military is full of these fundies...

[PA Democrat]

154. Yes, they were sued, but I believe that the case was dismissed by a judge,

probably a Bush appointee.

[prodigal_green]

102. I didn't realize that Freethinking was one of the "Four Fs"

that disqualify one from military service.

[Deep13]

115. I don't know what that means.-EDIT: I looked it up.

What are the four F's and why do they trump Article 6 of the Constitution which prohibits religious tests for public office or trust?

Edit:

"Find, Fix, Flank, & Finish" per Wiki. I notice "faith" isn't on that list either.

[Felix Mala]

109. I fear this is the biggest issue confronting our country...

An army fails in the field. Rather than blame their pious mis-leader, they decide to come home and make war on those they perceived lost the war for them. That's how the Czar was overthrown. That's how the Nazi party got so many quick converts, they were veterans of WWI and believed they were winning until their country surrendered.

These "fundamentalist Christian" flame outs surface to the attention of the public too briefly. Look at the US Air Force Academy scandal. Look at how other religions are treated by the military. I think we're all in big trouble.

[Rhiannon12866]

110. K&R. Good God (excuse the term), will they stop at nothing?!

Important post! Thank you...:-(

[Deep13]

112. U.S. Constitution Art. 6, claus 3:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[awoke_in_2003]

119. It is so hard to be an athiest

in this country. Hell, if my bosses knew I was one, I would lose my job (Higher Power Aviation). Maybe not right away, but it would happen. My hats off to this brave man.

[Deep13]

120. I know it.

I can only think how much worse it would be if not for our skeptical and secular founders. They would be aghast to see the degree of this country's religiosity.

[Divine Discontent]

128. it's probably as bad as being openly gay in a workplace

b/c I know people who lose their jobs b/c they're gay. I bet in the rural areas it's equally bad to be atheist or gay, though, and more than anything, if the employer is antigay, they're probably antiatheist also. so who knows the exact #'s, but yeah, two of the biggest ways to get fired (and I'm a gay Christian) - say you're an atheist, or say you're queer - boom - out the door for some silly reason they come up with that hides the fact of their hatred.

take care!

[awoke_in_2003]

147. Agree

I guess there is more than 1 type of closet. Luckily, I can be up front with my father. He's a heck of a guy- he has two gay daughters, and an atheist son. The only thing that has ever bothered him was worrying about the assholes that go out of their way to hurt gay people (he doesn't worry about me, I'm a big boy).

[Divine Discontent]

148. good on you!

and though I do not believe as you do on the issue of an afterlife, I only tell you I pray for you and I support forever your rights to believe as you want - it is what makes us human (the right to choose our own path) and I cannot believe in living ANY other way.

[awoke_in_2003]

153. Thank you

we both evidently share different beliefs, but you support my right to not believe what you do. And I respect your right to believe what you want. Too bad civility is something this country has seemed to have lost.

[Divine Discontent]

156. I was raised well, very well.

and I'm a gay guy, who is Christian. so you know all about the judgment I've heard and I've lost the person I wanted to spend my time with forever, because they couldn't accept who they were liking (someone of the same sex) to spend all of their time with also... so I feel great compassion for people doing as they feel led and respecting their choices. I wish you well, and will pray for you, and you will think, "you don't need to do that, but thanks anyhow", lol...

peace to you friend...

[Divine Discontent]

157. ps - go bengals! lol n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

159. What happened to them sunday?

couldn't even take care of the brownies?

[Divine Discontent]

166. fluke...

really. I think the D was tired from the monday night monster game against baltimore...

[jmowreader]

167. Mmmm...you are an atheist...

and you took a job at Higher Power Aviation?

[KamaAina]

122. "The staff sergeant asked plaintiff what an atheist is"?

I guess they weren't exaggerating when they admitted they'd lowered the standards somewhat. What a :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: !

[NC_Nurse]

138. No shit.

That was my first thought. He didn't know what an atheist is? :wtf:

Pathetic.

[Posteritatis]

162. Or he was loading the question on purpose

"But that jackass told me my God isn't real! What was I supposed to do?"

Either way, uncool.

[Divine Discontent]

124. as a Christian myself, who loves the LORD above everything...

the military is dead wrong on this. I think it's repugnant that they push and only respect the viewpoint of Christianity - when - giving other humans the respect they deserve, not special treatment - but equal treatment.

[happygoluckytoyou]

125. well GODDAMN

believe in the prince of peace or i will blow your f$%&'n head offa your shoulders boy!!!

as senator craig once said.... blow me once shame on you, blow me twice and i'll tip you plenty

as rep foley once said.... i don't know what bible you're reading, but can't we all get on the same page

you gotta love a good old fashion fundi....

[GOPBasher]

127. That's the theocratic bent we should expect here in 1512. Wait,

what year is it again? :shrug:

[KoKo]

130. Also See Josh Marshall on " House of Wisdom" about Religious Indoctrination of Detainees...it fits

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1844336&mesg_id=1844336

[Mr. Ected]

131. "They Hate Us For Our Freedoms"

Yeah, right.

Sorry, Mr. Bush, but it's YOU and your christianofascists who hate the America we once loved and cherished.

[designforce]

133. This all began in the 1980's

This story reminds me of why I retired earlier than I had planned. Heck, I was going to be a 30 year man, but it was the injecting of religion and politics into the military that made me give it up in 1993.

The religious stuff began to creep in during the 1982 time frame in a slow but relentless way. That is when I first ran into the new "God Squad". Slowly, over time they were everywhere, mostly from schools like the Citadel, and other southern make believe military academies. The mix of religion and politics brewed for several years and came to a head during the first gulf war. That is when the first attempt was made upon my troops and myself to get us to pray, and this was not a request, it was an order, which is illegal. Those Senior NCOs who were weak went along with it, but most of us did not. Then came the election campaign between Bush, Clinton, and let's not forget Perot. That is when the two forces merged and we were faced with the Religious Zealot Neocon Republican Officer Corps who had slowly gained control of the grades of Major to Brig General. There were was one incident when our Group commander spoke at a Senior NCO Call, and made statements about then candidate Clinton being a draft dodger and a fake christian. Luckily, our Senior Chief stood up and called this one star idiot on it and the meeting ended abruptly. That is the day I planned to retire. I relished the fact that Clinton was elected, I loved seeing the zealots just get so wound up.

So, this comes as no surprise, I just hope that this will shine a bright light on the idiots who have taken over our military.

I wish all those who have to deal with this the best of luck in their court case.

[Posteritatis]

165. An NCO took on a brigadier general?

Nice on him, given what it was over! Do you have any idea what happened to the guy?

[JoeDuck]

134. How I Dealt With Something Similar

In the Army in 1966, stationed in the Canal Zone, I was told during an IG inspection that I had to have a Bible in my foot locker. Not quite an atheist, I didn't like the notion of having to display the Bible. Instead, I typed out a small pamphlet with a cover that labeled it as my personal beliefs. It was about the same size as the New Testaments the Army handed out. I put it in my foot locker where the Bible was supposed to go. No one said anything to me about it.

[Posteritatis]

163. Ha! Nice. (nt)

[ladywnch]

137. am I the only one who noticed how soldiers could get out of the stop loss

BS that the Army is engaging in?

---The complaint also alleges that Welborne vowed to block Hall's reenlistment in the Army if the atheist group continued to meet ----

Block his reenlistment?!! I would think if that's all it took hundreds if not thousands who feel they've been bamboozled by the stop loss scam could use this as a means of getting out without a dishonorable discharge and loss of benefits.

Or is there something I'm missing here?

[Deep13]

155. Interesting.

My guess is that not letting them leave is treated differently than reenlisting which is voluntary.

[and-justice-for-all]

149. sue their asses off!! nt

[MissMarple]

158. Sadly, this is America, as usual, people as usual.

Maintaining our freedoms will always be a struggle. Truth to tell. What else can I say?

[johnlal]

161. Now soldiers know how to get out...

"Welborne vowed to block Hall's reenlistment in the Army if the atheist group continued to meet..."

They keep extending deployments, and they instituted a "stop loss" policy to keep personnel from leaving Iraq. Even if you get a limb blown off, they're likely to send you back with a prosthesis. But if you have a meeting about atheism, they don't want you back. There's your out, guys!

I can just see Max Klinger sitting in the front row of the meeting, wearing his finest dress from the Madalyn Murray O'Hair collection.

(Note, this is sarcasm. I respect atheists and military personnel, and I think the treatment of this particular soldier sucks).

[Rocknrule]

164. A little off topic but...

why do alot of Christians claim that faith is necessary to be moral? I've heard Christians openly admit that the only thing preventing them from going on mass murder rampages is fear of eternal damnation. Atheists refrain from doing those things just because they strive to be decent people.