Some a-holes "tagged" the gleaming new high school where my wife teaches

[Stevendsmith]

Burns me up.

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Was artistic tagging, or gangbangers staking out turf? nt

[Stevendsmith]

2. It was turf-staking tags

Would it have been okay if it was artistic?

[iconoclastic cat]

32. Interesting question. Would it? nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. What Would That Relevance Be? Either Way It Was An Asshole With No Respect For The Property Of

others.

Who cares what the intent was of the punk(s) who did it?

[Toucano]

19. Fascist! Those "punks" have a right to free speech.

Self-expression and free speech are the foundation of this country and I'm tired of the direction we're headed.

You can't restrict the venue or the manner in which they express themselves, Little Mussolini!

:sarcasm:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. LOL

[iconoclastic cat]

33. The irony of your handle in this context is interesting.

Great album and great screenplay, btw. Have you seen the Operation Mindcrime play onstage?

[walldude]

49. Play? I have seen the tours where they performed it but

are they doing a play?

[iconoclastic cat]

69. Yep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation:_Mindcrime

The sequel, Operation: Mindcrime II, was released on April 4, 2006, with Ronnie James Dio taking over the role of "Dr. X". The subsequent tour consisted of the band performing both Operation: Mindcrime and its sequel in their entireties, back-to-back, with actors, props, an elaborate stage set, and a video screen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Saw The Show On The Livecrime Tour, Back In What, 91 Maybe?

Awesome, awesome show. (hearing sister mary sing live was pretty cool)

[IdaBriggs]

37. I would like to come into YOUR HOME and do some "self expression"

on YOUR WALLS. After all, it is *MY* right as an American.

:sarcasm:

No one is arguing against people expressing themselves (including me). However, putting up your "own ideas" on PUBLIC PROPERTY (meaning walls) is INAPPROPRIATE because it doesn't belong to just one person -- it belongs to the PUBLIC.

Now, before you argue that "its PUBLIC" and start howling about the unfairness of depriving young free expressionist artists from vandalizing/utilizing PUBLIC walls, picture your response if a bunch of Young Evangelicals decided to put "Jesus Saves" stuff all over the courthouse (or school). A nice mural of Him Dying For Your Sins, or maybe some Eternal Hellfire & Damnation ought to be in public view on the school walls, right?

Free Expression is when artwork happens on your own property; Vandalism is when it happens on MINE. And that includes "the publics" too.

ON EDIT: I'm sorry -- I just saw your :sarcasm: tag -- my pompous little lecture is a tad misguided! Doh!!!

:banghead:

[iconoclastic cat]

42. Like other posters here, you're appealing to fear.

Which is a logical fallacy. Now, it would be interesting to discuss the definition of property. How does the public own something? Is every member of the public equal in their ownership?

[IdaBriggs]

44. Its not FEAR -- its FAIR.

How do you decide which of the publics many messages deserves to go on a public wall? Who gets to recruit -- the young evangelicals or the local gang? Homophobes or racists or politicians? (Get over yourself/just get along messages aren't as controversial, and the folks who try to live that way rarely spend their time promoting them.)

I say leave the public building walls to their intended purpose -- let the schools focus on their mission, and everyone else do their "thing" on their own space. (Garage doors make lovely forums for political opinions, for example!)

:hi:

[iconoclastic cat]

30. I think it's interesting, so that means I care.

The relevance is that the intent signals the meaning of the act. If, for example, it was a gang staking out turf, than that means that the environment of the area is supportive of gang activity. To prevent further tagging in this case, the solution is not to lament the act itself, but to go after the conditions that supported the act.

Any more questions?

*edited for spelling

[KittyWampus]

16. "artistic" tagging? It's the equivalent of a dog peeing on stuff to mark it. If someone wants to do

art, they can get a piece of paper or canvas or whatever like the rest of us.

[iconoclastic cat]

29. So, art can only occur via approved media in the approved place.

And that approval must be granted by approved approvers. Got it.

[11 Bravo]

35. I'll be over to your place this afternoon with 6-7 cans of spray paint.

Fuck, do I feel artistic!

[iconoclastic cat]

39. See, this is how I know I'm on to something: Personal attacks.

And straw men. And an appeal to fear. Yet, nothing to say about art, the validity of a form, censorship, or the concept of property. The reason for this could be that I have a valid point.

[mondo joe]

73. To the contrary: it has nothing to do with fear, but with the legality of

vandalizing property that is not yours.

[Kajsa]

77. "On to something"? Your whole purpose is

to disrupt and provoke others.

[Dorian Gray]

40. Who would make that determination?

Can't a gangbanger be artistic? That seems to be a prejudiced statement.

And, really, what does it matter. If it is grafitti, then it's usually unwelcome, no matter how "artistic" the grafitti is.

[iconoclastic cat]

43. Where is the prejudice in that question, exactly? nt

[Dorian Gray]

67. Gangbangers vs. Artiste....

How does one determine a gangbanger? By attitude, dress, socioeconomic status, and, sadly, sometimes by color. How would YOU determine whether one was an artist vs. gangbanger? You'd prejudge based upon how the person looks. The word gangbanger is loaded to describe a particular type of person. Later in the thread, people have descried grafitti makers as low class. That's probably a better word. Thug. Idiot. Public annoyance.

[iconoclastic cat]

72. Then let me clarify: "Was it done by a self-identified gang member?" nt

[iamthebandfanman]

48. no excuse for it regardless

unless they wanna dish out the money to have it corrected after theyve done their work.

until then, why should people care what it is when the money comes outa their taxes?

[Mike Daniels]

54. What's the difference?

I don't really care if someone tags a replica of the Mona Lisa on the side of a building.

If the person didn't have the permission of the building owners to touch their property the act is still vandalism and is still a crime. And the person is still a selfish ass who proved that he/she doesn't have respect for anyone else's property.

[american_typeculture]

3. Why does it burn you up?

Because the school is new? Because your wife works there?

[Stevendsmith]

4. It would burn me up if the school was old and my wife didn't work there

but the fact that it's a beautiful newly minted school really adds to my anger. The new school is such a promising symbol of hope, and the tagging just says "same old shit."

[Selatius]

20. It would burn me up regardless, because it's an investment in the future, with my tax dollars.

The gangs and the tags represent the past. The school represents the future. They cannot exist at the same time. There is no future with the gangs or with rage in general, and I think gangs are a symptom of societal rage borne from alienation, hate, and no opportunities afforded to people who need them the most. It's a legacy of our past we still have not been able to resolve.

[Vilis Veritas]

5. In the 70's it was "Dick Nixon before he dicks you..."

A more modern form?

Prune Bush.

Peace.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. That's totally awesome!

[NuttyFluffers]

27. I know you can be underwhelmed, and overwhelmed. But can you just be whelmed?

[Karenina]

7. You're on a tear tonight, eh?

[soothsayer]

8. I was just marveling how the Washington monument has escaped tagging.

All of the gleaming white marble stuff here in DC is just begging for it, it would seem.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Can You Imagine How Many Video Cameras There Must Be?

I once saw this website where a young woman had several topless photos taken in front of the Iwo Jima monument but that was pre 9-11...

[Steve_in_California]

9. Alert!!!

We need to help Senator Leahy with his restore habeas corpus act. Joe Biden has already said he wil vote yes. They need only a few more votes to avoid fillibuster. Please check your senator’s position and take appropriate action. Here’s the link: http://restore-habeas.org /

[Canuckistanian]

11. Please, no spamming the threads

If you have a message to send, start your own post.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Sorry To Hear That Bro.

Unfortunately though, there will always be low class punks who have no respect for property.

[american_typeculture]

14. What do you mean by low class?

Do you mean children from low income families? Because you sure sound like it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. ROFLMAO!!!! You're TOO MUCH!!! All Day With Your Little Ridiculous Comments!

You don't know what low class behavior is? Like, rilly?

You are my new favorite groupie! :hi:

[american_typeculture]

17. Think nothing of it.

Class is defined by income, that definition cuts across all cultures. So you obviously mean people of low income. You think too highly of yourself.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. There Ya Go With That Silliness Again. I Love It!

Are you really this silly? :rofl:

Hey, ever heard of being classy? Having class? Sooooooo, low class might also mean, like, not having a lot of class? Maybe? Ya think?

God you crack me up!

Welcome to the OMC fanclub groupie! :hi:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. And Your Posts Say What Exactly?

I post my opinions and honest views on things. Don't like it? Too damn bad. You'll get over it pal.

And it's not disruption to call things as I see them. It's not being a disruptor to challenge the stupidity and overdramatic bullshit that some spew here. If anything, I'd consider them to be far more the disruptors. But that's for the mods to decide.

And since you've basically been stalking me and attacking me all day, I'd have to say you're being quite the hypocrite in accusing someone of disruption. Ya might want to check yourself pal.

I also couldn't help but notice that you completely ignored the fact that I totally bested you on your low class argument, and that you went straight to personal attack instead (which is against the rules too, by the way, oh expert on disruption). Maybe you realized you were silly after all and couldn't handle having to admit error, huh? :rofl:

But welcome to the OMC groupies anyway!

:toast:

[Rosemary2205]

24. You've been busy tonight.

After that OJ thread I decided to (honest to god) go pop some corn and tune in to the show. -- smelling salts at the ready in case I get light headed from all the faux outrage being flung at you.

Two thumbs up from me! :) :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. It's Too Funny Ain't It?

And for the record, never in a million years would I think that OJ thread would've turned into a flamefest. Go figure! LOL

And off topic, but I like your sig pic. Somethin about it is too cute!

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike Daniels]

57. Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton are loaded beyond belief

but I think most of the public would state that any one of the three are pretty low-class individuals.

[Stuckinthebush]

34. Low class means without class

Lower class means SES.

The poster said Low Class.

I agree...this is a low class thing to do whether you are from a lower or middle or upper SES.

[Kajsa]

38. Income doesn't equal class.

Just look at Donald Trump.

Low class=little/no class.

It's not about money.

[Dorian Gray]

41. Exactly

And the people who grafitti a new school (or an old one, for that matter), are low-class idiots, no matter how much money they have. Low Class does not = LowER Class. There is a distinction there.

[american_typeculture]

46. I get what you mean.

But if those kids had money, had they gotten caught, they would have been bailed out of jail and years later their grafitti antics would be laughed about and looked at as a rite of passage. A kid without money would have simply gone to jail as that would be expected of some kid who is of "low class".

What I'm saying is that YOUR definition of "class" doesn't really matter because it's not definitive. The elite's are the ones who define "class".

[Kajsa]

50. I don't think so.

The people who know what class is,
in a cultural sense, define it.

Some rich people lack class and try
to cover it up by throwing money at
it.
There's a Saturn commercial out now
that covers this.

[american_typeculture]

51. Oh a Saturn commercial...

Why didn't you say so? You just said that the "people who know what class is define it" and then you point to a Saturn commercial. So what is it? The "people" define class or Saturn® Corporation defines class? Also, which "people define class"? If you look closely, it's always the elites of any given society.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Are You Purposely Trying To Miss The Point?

The poster was obviously giving the commercial as reference and example for your understanding, and it is quite disingenuous of you to act like the poster was trying to use the commercial as the driving force that defines class. What the poster was saying, and I'd wager you know this full well, is that 'classiness' is defined by those who are intellectual enough to recognize and deduce what being classy in their culture would entail.

[american_typeculture]

56. So the definition of class is determined by intellect.

And the university system in the United States is very hierarchical. So does somebody who has a Doctorate in Philosophy from Harvard define class or is it the person from say, Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College who defines class? Thank you for proving my point. Score, Me:2 you:0

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. Geez, Now We Need To Clarify What 'Intellect' Means Too? You Seem To Have It Confused With

level of education.

See, it matters not what school one has gone to as to their intellectual capability. In the context referenced above, intellect merely stands for those who have enough mental clarity to deduce accurately what would be considered classy behavior for their culture. I'm a bit amazed this had to be explained to you.

As far as proving your point, I don't believe you ever really have made one. I also don't recall your ever defending it, nor any information that would lend credibility to it. In fact, this has been one of the silliest and illogical subthreads I've seen in a while. It's almost like you're purposely missing the point just so you can continue debating something that didn't exist as a problem to begin with. It's all rather odd to see, really.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kajsa]

60. Argh!

Saturn Corp. doesn't define class( I NEVER said that- show me where I did)
it comments on it.WTH?

Yes, the "elite" do NOT dictate class-
Society as a WHOLE does.

If you don't agree then
we have a difference of opinion.

[Kajsa]

68. Hmm-let's see--

low post count AND
extremely argumentative,
talking in circles,
only disrupts

--looking like a troll.

[LanternWaste]

58. Not on DU, chief...

"The elite's are the ones who define "class".

Not on DU, chief. We don't let them redefine words for us, nor do we play by their rules here.

[american_typeculture]

74. You are lying to yourself if you think that is true.

I saw a post in the Lounge not two days a go where the topic was something like: "Have you ever run into a fornmer lover years later?" or somthing to that effect. The poster then goes on to describe an encounter with a former boyfriend who was a stocker at a grocery store and the punchline was the current boyfriend saying, "You used to date THAT guy." So don't tell me class doesn't exists on this board... chief. Sorry don't have the link, I'm not searching for it. It was around two or maybe three days ago.

[Kajsa]

76. Stuck-up snobs don't define it for us, either.

Neither do trolls.

[Dorian Gray]

70. I think the problem here is semantic...

there are multiple definitions of class, not all dealing with socio-economic issues.

But, you are right in that if someone is wealthy and is arrested for grafitti, the long term consequences will probably be a lot different than if someone from a lower-socio-economic background is arrested for the same crime. I don't disagree with that at all. I do think that anyone who would paint grafitti, unless, obviously, commissioned to do so, is a total punk. Regardless of background.

[american_typeculture]

45. You are absolutely wrong about that.

Class has everything to do with income. You may not adhere to the class system, but I'll tell ya, the people on the top do and most Americans do as well, why do so many Americans strive for more and more, bigger and bigger? To the elite "class" you can be a complete dolt, an idiot, an accused rapist or any combination of social deginerate, but if you have money you will still a part of the club.

[Kajsa]

47. OK- we are getting into different definitions of 'class'.

There is a monetary income "class".
Today, it's referred to more as lower income, middle income, higher income,
the emphasis on income .


Then there is class as in culture and good manners.
That's what we are talking about here.

That has nothing to do with money.

[LanternWaste]

59. You do realize that many words have multiple definitions, right?

You do realize that many words have multiple definitions, right? For example, 'class'.

Why not argue that it *really* means a room full of students with an instructor teaching advanced trig, and then reject all other definitions because they don't suit your argument-- it would make just as much sense. :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. !

:applause:

[american_typeculture]

75. Because when you talk about societal class

in the context of "good manners" and class in the context of "caste system" you are essentially taking about the same thing. Who defines class? It's the upper end of the social spectrum not the lower end. Who has good manners? The elite. Who has elegance? The elite. Who has grace? The elite. We have been conformed to think in these terms, hey I'm with ya, I don't look at things in that way, but society as a whole does.

[Dorian Gray]

71. There are multiple definitions of class....

you are sticking to one while wholely ignoring the other.

[yewberry]

28. So hard to deal with sometimes.

I worked in a local public elementary school the past 2 years, and the school gets tagged all the time.

Frankly, it really frightens the kids--especially the little ones. The school can barely keep ahead of the graffiti, and some of it is just soooo awful.

So infuriating.

But what can you do?

<sigh>

[raccoon]

31. Clue me in--does that mean some gang-related graffiti? nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. Yeah, baby!

Kill shit, kiddos!!!

[DrunkenMaster]

55. Don't You Have Anything Else to Complain About?

We're trapped in an illegal war, the housing market is in meltdown, our civil liberties are disappearing faster than a case of Keystone Lite in a freshman dormitory and you get "burned up" about a couple juvenile dipshits with spraypaint?

[LanternWaste]

62. Is that the definitive list of what we're allowed to get upset about?

Is that the definitive list of what we're allowed to get upset about, or do you have more?

Honestly, chief-- why don't you let us in on what's valid to get upset about and what's not? Tell us what that list is based on, who wrote the list, and why that particular list is better than everyone else's.

As you appear to be in the know, why not share your absolute and definitive answers with the rest of the class...?

[Kajsa]

64. Oh, so saying anything about " dipshits" defacing

property is verboten and "trivial"?

it's " trivial" to care about your community and
what a brand new school looks like?

It's "trivial"to care about the kids going to a brand new school
covered with gang tags?

[Zookeeper]

65. The money it will take to clean up the mess...

is money taken away from educating the children in the school.

I REALLY don't understand why so many of the posters on this thread don't get that.

How do we prevent a repeat of the Iraq invasion and the election of dangerous incompetents like Bush? It's through education, folks!

[NoPasaran]

78. I realize this probably won't be a popular view

But I think that scumbags who tag property should be forced to clean up their mess, forced to dig their own graves, and be shot.